This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #245 with Tom Brands.
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Table of Contents
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- 0:00 – Introduction
- 2:00 – Motivation
- 16:00 – Mental toughness
- 20:28 – Weight cutting
- 22:16 – Olympic dreams
- 27:11 – 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta
- 30:16 – Brother
- 35:27 – Champion mindset
- 41:28 – Beyond limits
- 46:28 – Faith
- 47:58 – Family
- 52:03 – Brands vs Brands
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Tom Brands, Olympic champion and world champion in freestyle wrestling. Three-time NCAA wrestling champion at University of Iowa, and one of the greatest coaches in the history of wrestling, leading the University of Iowa Hawkeyes for 15 years, including in 2021 winning the national championships and getting a Coach of the Year award, his third. He’s known for his intensity, focus, and mental toughness, embodying both as a wrestler and coach the culture and spirit of Iowa wrestling. We recorded this conversation almost exactly three years ago after I attended the University of Iowa versus Iowa State wrestling meet in the historic Carver-Hawkeye Arena.
The following is a conversation with Tom Brands, Olympic champion and world champion in freestyle wrestling. Three-time NCAA wrestling champion at University of Iowa, and one of the greatest coaches in the history of wrestling, leading the University of Iowa Hawkeyes for 15 years, including in 2021 winning the national championships and getting a Coach of the Year award, his third. He’s known for his intensity, focus, and mental toughness, embodying both as a wrestler and coach the culture and spirit of Iowa wrestling. We recorded this conversation almost exactly three years ago after I attended the University of Iowa versus Iowa State wrestling meet in the historic Carver-Hawkeye Arena.
Lex Fridman
Tom graciously invited me to his home where his family, a couple of friends, and me spent several hours chatting about wrestling and life. We recorded this brief podcast conversation that evening, and I wasn’t sure where, how, or whether we’ll publish it. But returning to it now three years later, I realize just how meaningful that evening was for me. And even though I was nervous, didn’t even put on my jacket, it’s a moment I would love to share with others. The mix of intensity and heartfelt kindness from Tom and his family made me want to stay in Iowa forever.
Tom graciously invited me to his home where his family, a couple of friends, and me spent several hours chatting about wrestling and life. We recorded this brief podcast conversation that evening, and I wasn’t sure where, how, or whether we’ll publish it. But returning to it now three years later, I realize just how meaningful that evening was for me. And even though I was nervous, didn’t even put on my jacket, it’s a moment I would love to share with others. The mix of intensity and heartfelt kindness from Tom and his family made me want to stay in Iowa forever.
Lex Fridman
I think I will return there soon enough because of the amazing people there, and because Iowa is still, in many ways, the heart of the indomitable spirit of American wrestling, a sport I love and to which I’m deeply grateful for humbling me early in life and helping me and many others build character through hard work. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, here’s my conversation with Tom Brands.
I think I will return there soon enough because of the amazing people there, and because Iowa is still, in many ways, the heart of the indomitable spirit of American wrestling, a sport I love and to which I’m deeply grateful for humbling me early in life and helping me and many others build character through hard work. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, here’s my conversation with Tom Brands.
Motivation
Lex Fridman
What’s the best motivator for you or for your athletes? Hatred of losing or love of winning?
What’s the best motivator for you or for your athletes? Hatred of losing or love of winning?
Tom Brands
For me personally, it was definitely the hatred of losing. I was not a guy that was about pageantry. I was not a guy that was about the parade. When I wrestled in Atlanta I rented a three-cylinder Geo with my wife, drove home, and mowed the lawn because it hadn’t been mowed for a month. And I remember one of our neighbors driving by, and they were like, they did a double take, like, “Well, that’s– He– I thought he was in Atlanta.” Well, I was in Atlanta yesterday and just sat on the stand and got a gold medal put around my neck. That’s how I was. That doesn’t mean that it was a right approach or the wrong approach. It’s just what worked for me.
For me personally, it was definitely the hatred of losing. I was not a guy that was about pageantry. I was not a guy that was about the parade. When I wrestled in Atlanta I rented a three-cylinder Geo with my wife, drove home, and mowed the lawn because it hadn’t been mowed for a month. And I remember one of our neighbors driving by, and they were like, they did a double take, like, “Well, that’s– He– I thought he was in Atlanta.” Well, I was in Atlanta yesterday and just sat on the stand and got a gold medal put around my neck. That’s how I was. That doesn’t mean that it was a right approach or the wrong approach. It’s just what worked for me.
Lex Fridman
But when you were a kid, you and Terry, you dreamed about winning that Olympic gold.
But when you were a kid, you and Terry, you dreamed about winning that Olympic gold.
Tom Brands
Yeah. So-
Yeah. So-
Lex Fridman
That’s about winning then.
That’s about winning then.
Tom Brands
… there is the lure of winning. But what drives you is that you know, as you move forward, there’s just no reason that you have to settle for anything but being the best. And it would get to you to the point where that’s not gonna happen to me again.
… there is the lure of winning. But what drives you is that you know, as you move forward, there’s just no reason that you have to settle for anything but being the best. And it would get to you to the point where that’s not gonna happen to me again.
Lex Fridman
So what– The thing that keeps you up at night is the losses, and that’s not gonna happen to me again. That’s the thought that keeps you up at night.
So what– The thing that keeps you up at night is the losses, and that’s not gonna happen to me again. That’s the thought that keeps you up at night.
Tom Brands
That’s the thought that drives you when you’re training. That’s why you do, you know, nine ropes when Gable says, “Do three ropes and buddy pushups, and you’re out of here,” and you do nine, or you do them until you can’t do any more. And it’s a very rare ingredient. The older I get, the more rare I find it is.
That’s the thought that drives you when you’re training. That’s why you do, you know, nine ropes when Gable says, “Do three ropes and buddy pushups, and you’re out of here,” and you do nine, or you do them until you can’t do any more. And it’s a very rare ingredient. The older I get, the more rare I find it is.
Lex Fridman
The ingredient of loss feeding, feeding that, the drive of hard training?
The ingredient of loss feeding, feeding that, the drive of hard training?
Tom Brands
Maybe that because everybody’s so worried about the negative whatever and you’re putting too much pressure on yourself. So maybe that. But what I meant was it’s when a coach says, “Okay, finish with four ropes, and, you know, buddy pushups and four way neck,” you know, I would do 12 or 10. That’s rare.
Maybe that because everybody’s so worried about the negative whatever and you’re putting too much pressure on yourself. So maybe that. But what I meant was it’s when a coach says, “Okay, finish with four ropes, and, you know, buddy pushups and four way neck,” you know, I would do 12 or 10. That’s rare.
Lex Fridman
It’s no longer about what the coach says. It’s your own demons that you’re trying to-
It’s no longer about what the coach says. It’s your own demons that you’re trying to-
Tom Brands
Right, right
Right, right
Lex Fridman
… exercise out. What’s the few losses you’ve had in your life? Are all of them just melt together, or is there something that stands out in your mind?
… exercise out. What’s the few losses you’ve had in your life? Are all of them just melt together, or is there something that stands out in your mind?
Tom Brands
I’m a guy that remembers my career that well. I know that I am judged on a very small portion of my life, and that’s minutes of wrestling matches. You know, a lot of, lot of winning, but there’s some losing in there, too. And, you know, people think they know you because of that, and they think they know you because they see you in a press conference. But you know, to go back to the original question, you know, I don’t know how to answer that.
I’m a guy that remembers my career that well. I know that I am judged on a very small portion of my life, and that’s minutes of wrestling matches. You know, a lot of, lot of winning, but there’s some losing in there, too. And, you know, people think they know you because of that, and they think they know you because they see you in a press conference. But you know, to go back to the original question, you know, I don’t know how to answer that.
Lex Fridman
So there’s no losses that just, that eat at you still?
So there’s no losses that just, that eat at you still?
Tom Brands
There’s opponents that I have learned a great deal from. I mean, my loss to John Smith in 1991 US Open was something that I learned a lot about. I learned a lot about positioning. I learned a lot about the importance of par terre. You know, in a certain kind of crazy way, I learned that I could go with the best guy in the world even though it was 14 to four.
There’s opponents that I have learned a great deal from. I mean, my loss to John Smith in 1991 US Open was something that I learned a lot about. I learned a lot about positioning. I learned a lot about the importance of par terre. You know, in a certain kind of crazy way, I learned that I could go with the best guy in the world even though it was 14 to four.
Tom Brands
And this is when tech falls were 15 or 12 points, so I didn’t get tech fall. And I wasn’t, that wasn’t a badge of honor for me, but I knew I could go with him because it was one-point takedowns. I scored four takedowns on him. And I learned that I had to move my feet and I learned what it meant to move your feet constantly. And there’s no break. John Smith is a very, very intense competitor that people know that now, six-time world Olympic champion, and I felt that firsthand. But I did not go in there taking a back seat, even though the score was very lopsided.
And this is when tech falls were 15 or 12 points, so I didn’t get tech fall. And I wasn’t, that wasn’t a badge of honor for me, but I knew I could go with him because it was one-point takedowns. I scored four takedowns on him. And I learned that I had to move my feet and I learned what it meant to move your feet constantly. And there’s no break. John Smith is a very, very intense competitor that people know that now, six-time world Olympic champion, and I felt that firsthand. But I did not go in there taking a back seat, even though the score was very lopsided.
Lex Fridman
But you knew you could stand with the best of the world.
But you knew you could stand with the best of the world.
Tom Brands
I knew that I– This is what this is about. And you know what? You move your feet and you don’t give up a lace that’s so damn tight that it, you’re, you can’t, you know, feel your calf muscle, you know. And I gotta get ready for the consolation side of the bracket, ’cause I believe that was in the semis, you know? It, you know, you just learn from that, and it was, it was better than learning from, you know, a win over a second-ranked senior level guy when you’re a junior in college. You know, you wrestle the best on a stage.
I knew that I– This is what this is about. And you know what? You move your feet and you don’t give up a lace that’s so damn tight that it, you’re, you can’t, you know, feel your calf muscle, you know. And I gotta get ready for the consolation side of the bracket, ’cause I believe that was in the semis, you know? It, you know, you just learn from that, and it was, it was better than learning from, you know, a win over a second-ranked senior level guy when you’re a junior in college. You know, you wrestle the best on a stage.
Lex Fridman
So if you look back, you probably spent tens of thousands of hours on the mat, spilled sweat, blood, even tears maybe, maybe a few times. So technically or philosophically, how would you do any of those hours differently? Just looking back at the tens of thousands of hours.
So if you look back, you probably spent tens of thousands of hours on the mat, spilled sweat, blood, even tears maybe, maybe a few times. So technically or philosophically, how would you do any of those hours differently? Just looking back at the tens of thousands of hours.
Tom Brands
I would be more probably in my older age, I probably would’ve been more relaxed in my training, and probably would’ve went another cycle if I could do it over again. In ’96, I really thought that if, when Gable retired, that I would be the next guy in line, and I was wrong, and that was immature of me. And-
I would be more probably in my older age, I probably would’ve been more relaxed in my training, and probably would’ve went another cycle if I could do it over again. In ’96, I really thought that if, when Gable retired, that I would be the next guy in line, and I was wrong, and that was immature of me. And-
Lex Fridman
In terms of the coach?
In terms of the coach?
Tom Brands
In terms of the coach, yes. And I knew that Gable was close. I mean, I didn’t know when, but it just so happens, you know, ’97 was his record-breaking year, and then he retired. But I didn’t know how close he was. But I knew that he had, you know, he went down with a bad hip injury and, and so, you know, you’re just, you’re not gonna-
In terms of the coach, yes. And I knew that Gable was close. I mean, I didn’t know when, but it just so happens, you know, ’97 was his record-breaking year, and then he retired. But I didn’t know how close he was. But I knew that he had, you know, he went down with a bad hip injury and, and so, you know, you’re just, you’re not gonna-
Lex Fridman
So what is-
So what is-
Tom Brands
The-
The-
Lex Fridman
What, what does a relaxed Tom Brands look like? You’re saying you would’ve been a little more relaxed.
What, what does a relaxed Tom Brands look like? You’re saying you would’ve been a little more relaxed.
Tom Brands
More like where, you know what? I was pretty dang good and I was getting better every day, but maybe do it a little bit different, a little bit smarter, and Terry actually did that going through 2000. He had to do it, and he would’ve been in, in the, you know, in the funny farm, let alone the, you know, the physical farm, whatever you wanna say. He’d been mentally and physically beat up. But he had to learn to less is more type approach. And how it came around was, is, you know, you work hard at feeling good. You work hard in your recovery. So even when you’re not wrestling hard in that wrestling room and looking for the toughest partner- … to go, you’re still working hard in your recovery.
More like where, you know what? I was pretty dang good and I was getting better every day, but maybe do it a little bit different, a little bit smarter, and Terry actually did that going through 2000. He had to do it, and he would’ve been in, in the, you know, in the funny farm, let alone the, you know, the physical farm, whatever you wanna say. He’d been mentally and physically beat up. But he had to learn to less is more type approach. And how it came around was, is, you know, you work hard at feeling good. You work hard in your recovery. So even when you’re not wrestling hard in that wrestling room and looking for the toughest partner- … to go, you’re still working hard in your recovery.
Lex Fridman
In the recovery.
In the recovery.
Tom Brands
And massage could be that. Stretching could be that. Things like that that are more fluffy in, in-
And massage could be that. Stretching could be that. Things like that that are more fluffy in, in-
Lex Fridman
And that’s something you weren’t as good at, the recovery aspect of this?
And that’s something you weren’t as good at, the recovery aspect of this?
Tom Brands
Never, never, um … There, there’s not a place for it with young people because-
Never, never, um … There, there’s not a place for it with young people because-
Lex Fridman
Mentally
Mentally
Tom Brands
… in, in my opinion, there’s so much development to have happen. I mean, when, when you need to learn wrestling, you need to be wrestling. And as you get older your body won’t do it anymore. And so to learn wrestling, it’s more of a probably a relaxed approach.
… in, in my opinion, there’s so much development to have happen. I mean, when, when you need to learn wrestling, you need to be wrestling. And as you get older your body won’t do it anymore. And so to learn wrestling, it’s more of a probably a relaxed approach.
Lex Fridman
So if you had to choose between two athletes who would dominate competition, one who drills 100,000 reps of a specific takedown, specific technique, or one that spends that time live wrestling?
So if you had to choose between two athletes who would dominate competition, one who drills 100,000 reps of a specific takedown, specific technique, or one that spends that time live wrestling?
Tom Brands
Both. It’s the same. And I liked the live wrestling. I was always wanting to live wrestle. Bring the warmup into the live wrestle, let’s go. But where I got really, really good was the repetition, and I was disciplined enough to know that the things that you hate to do in this sport are the things that make you the very best, and that is a rare ingredient as I’ve gotten older. And you spend a lot of time communicating that to younger athletes.
Both. It’s the same. And I liked the live wrestling. I was always wanting to live wrestle. Bring the warmup into the live wrestle, let’s go. But where I got really, really good was the repetition, and I was disciplined enough to know that the things that you hate to do in this sport are the things that make you the very best, and that is a rare ingredient as I’ve gotten older. And you spend a lot of time communicating that to younger athletes.
Lex Fridman
So the thing, if you feel yourself hating something, that’s probably the thing you should be doing.
So the thing, if you feel yourself hating something, that’s probably the thing you should be doing.
Tom Brands
Yes. As a matter of fact, I had a strength coach when I was really young. He was just a freaking guy that would, he wore white, like he was almost like a nurse, nurse’s clothes. He wore all white from head to toe, and he was in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and his first name was Walt. And he taught Terry and I to hate the bar away from you on that last rep when you’re dead. And whether it’s a curl, you hate it up, and then you do the negative and you hate it down, and you hate that bench up, and you hate it. You look at the bar and you hate it away from you.
Yes. As a matter of fact, I had a strength coach when I was really young. He was just a freaking guy that would, he wore white, like he was almost like a nurse, nurse’s clothes. He wore all white from head to toe, and he was in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and his first name was Walt. And he taught Terry and I to hate the bar away from you on that last rep when you’re dead. And whether it’s a curl, you hate it up, and then you do the negative and you hate it down, and you hate that bench up, and you hate it. You look at the bar and you hate it away from you.
Tom Brands
So the, you know, I learned, and that, I was young. I was young. And I remember being bored. My mom’s sister lived out there, and we were dropped off to stay out there with our cousins, and I was bored a little bit. And they always treated us really good, but this was, like, the single most bright spot in a, in a weightlifting, like enlightenment-
So the, you know, I learned, and that, I was young. I was young. And I remember being bored. My mom’s sister lived out there, and we were dropped off to stay out there with our cousins, and I was bored a little bit. And they always treated us really good, but this was, like, the single most bright spot in a, in a weightlifting, like enlightenment-
Lex Fridman
Mm
Mm
Tom Brands
… even though I lifted weights, but I never knew the psychology behind lifting weights. It’s just to look good and so you can flex and look in the mirror, or is it for performance? And this guy was about performance.
… even though I lifted weights, but I never knew the psychology behind lifting weights. It’s just to look good and so you can flex and look in the mirror, or is it for performance? And this guy was about performance.
Lex Fridman
And you said repetition. Do you mean technique?
And you said repetition. Do you mean technique?
Tom Brands
I’m talking repetition, technique, technique, technique, drill, drill, drill, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish.
I’m talking repetition, technique, technique, technique, drill, drill, drill, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish, hit, hit, hit, drive, finish.
Lex Fridman
So you believe in that? You believe in that with your guys?
So you believe in that? You believe in that with your guys?
Tom Brands
I believe in that wholeheartedly.
I believe in that wholeheartedly.
Lex Fridman
So I mean, uh-
So I mean, uh-
Tom Brands
But I believe that you have to do it on your own. I don’t believe in the coach taking you to the promised land.
But I believe that you have to do it on your own. I don’t believe in the coach taking you to the promised land.
Lex Fridman
So in the guys today or in yourself, how often do you see people that grow the belief of doing 10,000, 20,000 reps?
So in the guys today or in yourself, how often do you see people that grow the belief of doing 10,000, 20,000 reps?
Tom Brands
I think it’s rare. I think it’s very rare, and I think it’s especially rare… I mean, you can talk about that as a coach, but it’s especially rare to bring a guy to that understanding, but you never stop trying. You’re always trying to reach him. I mean, we didn’t have a good performance out there tonight, but you know what? You don’t stop communicating. And there’s a lot of programs out there that put their head down when things aren’t going their way, and then as things start going their way, then they rise with the tide. There was no difference in the demeanor of our corner, and we talk about that’s a philosophy. And so you’re reaching your guys that way. So go back to your point or your question. You know, do you believe in the, in the 10,000 reps? And yes, I do, and-
I think it’s rare. I think it’s very rare, and I think it’s especially rare… I mean, you can talk about that as a coach, but it’s especially rare to bring a guy to that understanding, but you never stop trying. You’re always trying to reach him. I mean, we didn’t have a good performance out there tonight, but you know what? You don’t stop communicating. And there’s a lot of programs out there that put their head down when things aren’t going their way, and then as things start going their way, then they rise with the tide. There was no difference in the demeanor of our corner, and we talk about that’s a philosophy. And so you’re reaching your guys that way. So go back to your point or your question. You know, do you believe in the, in the 10,000 reps? And yes, I do, and-
Lex Fridman
But how do you inspire people to do that? So-
But how do you inspire people to do that? So-
Tom Brands
Well, you communicate…
Well, you communicate…
Lex Fridman
…by example, but communication. But I mean, that’s a… In my experience, what I’ve seen, communicating the value of repetition and drilling is a hard thing to communicate.
…by example, but communication. But I mean, that’s a… In my experience, what I’ve seen, communicating the value of repetition and drilling is a hard thing to communicate.
Tom Brands
It’s hard, and it’s very rare to have somebody that goes in there and will do it on their own.
It’s hard, and it’s very rare to have somebody that goes in there and will do it on their own.
Lex Fridman
Do you have young guys that step up and do that?
Do you have young guys that step up and do that?
Tom Brands
We do, and it’s rare. And the guys that do it on their own and have done it on their own are the guys that are in that lineup and doing well. The other thing is, is that when you talk about getting to that next level, a lot of times it’s, you know, what held you back was, “I did everything the coach asked of me and nothing more.”
We do, and it’s rare. And the guys that do it on their own and have done it on their own are the guys that are in that lineup and doing well. The other thing is, is that when you talk about getting to that next level, a lot of times it’s, you know, what held you back was, “I did everything the coach asked of me and nothing more.”
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Tom Brands
I mean, you can be a great guy for a coach as an athlete, and you did everything that coach asked, but you did nothing more.
I mean, you can be a great guy for a coach as an athlete, and you did everything that coach asked, but you did nothing more.
Lex Fridman
So you’re really looking for the guys that go way beyond what the coach says.
So you’re really looking for the guys that go way beyond what the coach says.
Tom Brands
We don’t want guys that are looking at their watch running out of the room when practice is over.
We don’t want guys that are looking at their watch running out of the room when practice is over.
Lex Fridman
And-
And-
Tom Brands
We want guys that know what they have to get done, and they might leave early, but they’re not looking at their watch.
We want guys that know what they have to get done, and they might leave early, but they’re not looking at their watch.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Tom Brands
They might be done early. They might be… We might be on a whole different path, and this guy just excuses himself. I’m all about that.
They might be done early. They might be… We might be on a whole different path, and this guy just excuses himself. I’m all about that.
Lex Fridman
There’s a-
There’s a-
Tom Brands
We are not… we are not autocrats.
We are not… we are not autocrats.
Lex Fridman
There’s an eternal engine in there. Is that something you’re born with or is that something you can develop?
There’s an eternal engine in there. Is that something you’re born with or is that something you can develop?
Tom Brands
I think you are born with it. You develop it also, and I think that there has to be comfort, and I go back to communication- … that young people are comfortable enough to communicate that I need to take the day off.
I think you are born with it. You develop it also, and I think that there has to be comfort, and I go back to communication- … that young people are comfortable enough to communicate that I need to take the day off.
Lex Fridman
So what do you mean by communication?
So what do you mean by communication?
Tom Brands
Or I need to do something different.
Or I need to do something different.
Lex Fridman
Just let… Exactly. So letting athletes be part of their own development like-
Just let… Exactly. So letting athletes be part of their own development like-
Tom Brands
Communication to me is letting them know what they need to do to get themselves in contention to be the starting quarterback. And then to give them boosts and compliments when they- … earn them. And I don’t have time to waste with lies and cheating. And when I say cheating, I’m talking about when they cheat themselves. And so there, those become very direct conversations, and the conversation starts like this: I don’t have time to waste and neither do you, and so why are we wasting our time? And here’s what I mean by that. We’re having a conversation about, you know, your accountability. If you look in the mirror and you’re accountable, then we aren’t taking the time to go through this. We’re already on our way to solving the problem. Problem can’t be solved without that understanding.
Communication to me is letting them know what they need to do to get themselves in contention to be the starting quarterback. And then to give them boosts and compliments when they- … earn them. And I don’t have time to waste with lies and cheating. And when I say cheating, I’m talking about when they cheat themselves. And so there, those become very direct conversations, and the conversation starts like this: I don’t have time to waste and neither do you, and so why are we wasting our time? And here’s what I mean by that. We’re having a conversation about, you know, your accountability. If you look in the mirror and you’re accountable, then we aren’t taking the time to go through this. We’re already on our way to solving the problem. Problem can’t be solved without that understanding.
Lex Fridman
And that has to do with symptoms that you see in the wrestling room. There’s something where the fire’s not quite there.
And that has to do with symptoms that you see in the wrestling room. There’s something where the fire’s not quite there.
Tom Brands
That has to do with mental, emotional, spiritual, physical- … everything. Everything that you know about. You know, I had a boss, and our athletic director is a great athletic director, and he gives us everything we need to be successful. But I had a boss, his name was Fred Mims, and I didn’t think anybody could be better than him. And then all of a sudden, this Gene Taylor guy came in, and I didn’t… And then he was pretty doggone good too, and he actually, you know, was just like Fred and maybe even a little bit more current.
That has to do with mental, emotional, spiritual, physical- … everything. Everything that you know about. You know, I had a boss, and our athletic director is a great athletic director, and he gives us everything we need to be successful. But I had a boss, his name was Fred Mims, and I didn’t think anybody could be better than him. And then all of a sudden, this Gene Taylor guy came in, and I didn’t… And then he was pretty doggone good too, and he actually, you know, was just like Fred and maybe even a little bit more current.
Tom Brands
And then he ended up taking a job at Kansas State where he’s the athletic director now. And then this lady, Barbara Burke, comes in, and I didn’t think anybody could be better than Gene Taylor or Fred Mims. And this Barbara Burke, she’s better than both of them, and the reason why is because she’s a problem solver. She doesn’t waste time. She’s direct, and she’s a problem solver, and that’s what we need. You need problem solvers.
And then he ended up taking a job at Kansas State where he’s the athletic director now. And then this lady, Barbara Burke, comes in, and I didn’t think anybody could be better than Gene Taylor or Fred Mims. And this Barbara Burke, she’s better than both of them, and the reason why is because she’s a problem solver. She doesn’t waste time. She’s direct, and she’s a problem solver, and that’s what we need. You need problem solvers.
Mental toughness
Lex Fridman
So on the flip side of problems and technique and repetition, here’s a thing called toughness, mental toughness, something that maybe you or maybe even Iowa in general is a little bit known for. So how do you train mental toughness as a coach?
So on the flip side of problems and technique and repetition, here’s a thing called toughness, mental toughness, something that maybe you or maybe even Iowa in general is a little bit known for. So how do you train mental toughness as a coach?
Tom Brands
You train mental toughness by putting them in situations that they’re willing to go through but don’t think they can make it, and then they go through it, and then all of a sudden those barriers are down.
You train mental toughness by putting them in situations that they’re willing to go through but don’t think they can make it, and then they go through it, and then all of a sudden those barriers are down.
Lex Fridman
Does that have to do with physical, usually exhaustion-
Does that have to do with physical, usually exhaustion-
Tom Brands
It has to-
It has to-
Lex Fridman
… the four reps on the ropes? You-
… the four reps on the ropes? You-
Tom Brands
It has to do with that, and it has to do with understanding why we’re doing it, and sometimes understanding why we’re doing it might not come for months. But there’s blind faith, and we have a heavyweight in the room right now, this young guy that he’s like that. He doesn’t necessarily understand it. He asks a lot of questions, but he does it. And he’s been here four months now, four and a half months now, and he’s getting better every day.
It has to do with that, and it has to do with understanding why we’re doing it, and sometimes understanding why we’re doing it might not come for months. But there’s blind faith, and we have a heavyweight in the room right now, this young guy that he’s like that. He doesn’t necessarily understand it. He asks a lot of questions, but he does it. And he’s been here four months now, four and a half months now, and he’s getting better every day.
Lex Fridman
So mental toughness too is a matter of repetition. So you- that’s develop-
So mental toughness too is a matter of repetition. So you- that’s develop-
Tom Brands
Mental toughness is a matter of repetition and having an open mind and being extremely accountable, and not only accountable that when you maybe when something doesn’t go your way, that you look in the mirror and own it. But accountable to the point of view that, you know what, I gotta get tough in this situation right here, right now, and this is what’s gonna make or break me. And I talked about my own career being defined by, you know, a couple of minutes on the mat, but that’s when you’re gonna be defined. That’s how you’re gonna be defined. That’s okay. So people are gonna talk about you, so you might as well have them talking about how doggone tough you are.
Mental toughness is a matter of repetition and having an open mind and being extremely accountable, and not only accountable that when you maybe when something doesn’t go your way, that you look in the mirror and own it. But accountable to the point of view that, you know what, I gotta get tough in this situation right here, right now, and this is what’s gonna make or break me. And I talked about my own career being defined by, you know, a couple of minutes on the mat, but that’s when you’re gonna be defined. That’s how you’re gonna be defined. That’s okay. So people are gonna talk about you, so you might as well have them talking about how doggone tough you are.
Lex Fridman
What about, we live in a world now, I’ve often in my own work, I hear about this concept of work-life balance or over-training. So you’ve been one of the hardest workers ever on the mat. You’ve coached some of the hardest workers ever. Do you think it’s possible to over-train, train too much? How big of a concern is it?
What about, we live in a world now, I’ve often in my own work, I hear about this concept of work-life balance or over-training. So you’ve been one of the hardest workers ever on the mat. You’ve coached some of the hardest workers ever. Do you think it’s possible to over-train, train too much? How big of a concern is it?
Tom Brands
Peaking and burnout are frames of mind, or burnout is a, is a, like you let things probably get to the point where you could have arrested them with a good frame of mind. But peaking is a frame of mind, and, you know, you have to know, be able to read, and that’s a lot of it. And the individual athlete also has to know that it’s a frame of mind. And so when you have a coach that’s reading that the right way, and you have an athlete that is knowing that it… when zero hour comes, that you’re gonna be ready to go and knowing that there’s light at the end of the tunnel, if you feel like you’re burning that candle at both ends, light’s coming at, to the… at the end of the tunnel. I mean, you’re good to go.
Peaking and burnout are frames of mind, or burnout is a, is a, like you let things probably get to the point where you could have arrested them with a good frame of mind. But peaking is a frame of mind, and, you know, you have to know, be able to read, and that’s a lot of it. And the individual athlete also has to know that it’s a frame of mind. And so when you have a coach that’s reading that the right way, and you have an athlete that is knowing that it… when zero hour comes, that you’re gonna be ready to go and knowing that there’s light at the end of the tunnel, if you feel like you’re burning that candle at both ends, light’s coming at, to the… at the end of the tunnel. I mean, you’re good to go.
Lex Fridman
So you think about Gable and that whole dream of being carried off the mat because you worked so hard. And again, do you think it’s possible to overtrain? So you said it’s mental.
So you think about Gable and that whole dream of being carried off the mat because you worked so hard. And again, do you think it’s possible to overtrain? So you said it’s mental.
Tom Brands
I do think it’s possible to overtrain if you have a lot of distractions.
I do think it’s possible to overtrain if you have a lot of distractions.
Lex Fridman
So it’s-
So it’s-
Tom Brands
And if you’re looking at your watch running out of the room- … then yeah, you’re gonna… and that frame of mind isn’t- … gonna lend itself to excellency. And the thing is, we have to accomplish what we need to get accomplished to get better every day. You can’t kind of accomplish what you need to accomplish, you have to accomplish it. And when you’re in that mindset, then the clock is irrelevant. There’s no place for a clock in the wrestling room. And maybe a clock that times a match, but… And maybe a clock if, you know, we’re student athletes here, but that’s why we encourage our, you know, when you schedule your classes, that you don’t have a class that comes right up to, you know, practice time. Or starts, it’s a night class and it starts at 5:30.
And if you’re looking at your watch running out of the room- … then yeah, you’re gonna… and that frame of mind isn’t- … gonna lend itself to excellency. And the thing is, we have to accomplish what we need to get accomplished to get better every day. You can’t kind of accomplish what you need to accomplish, you have to accomplish it. And when you’re in that mindset, then the clock is irrelevant. There’s no place for a clock in the wrestling room. And maybe a clock that times a match, but… And maybe a clock if, you know, we’re student athletes here, but that’s why we encourage our, you know, when you schedule your classes, that you don’t have a class that comes right up to, you know, practice time. Or starts, it’s a night class and it starts at 5:30.
Tom Brands
You know, go to get the 6:30 class or the 7:00.
You know, go to get the 6:30 class or the 7:00.
Lex Fridman
So you leave it all behind, your heart, your passion’s completely in it. There’s no clock.
So you leave it all behind, your heart, your passion’s completely in it. There’s no clock.
Tom Brands
And when you walk in that wrestling room, there’s no distractions. And it’s never eternal. The only thing that’s eternal is death. You know? There’s nothing… And sometimes guys come in there and they wig out. “Oh, it’s an hour and 25 minutes in. Oh. Or an hour and 45 minutes. Oh.”
And when you walk in that wrestling room, there’s no distractions. And it’s never eternal. The only thing that’s eternal is death. You know? There’s nothing… And sometimes guys come in there and they wig out. “Oh, it’s an hour and 25 minutes in. Oh. Or an hour and 45 minutes. Oh.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. You have to be willing to go as long as it takes. There’s no clock.
Yeah. You have to be willing to go as long as it takes. There’s no clock.
Tom Brands
There’s no clock.
There’s no clock.
Weight cutting
Lex Fridman
Again, wrestlers are some of the hardest, some of the toughest people in all of sports, but weight cutting often breaks people. So what’s your thought on weight cutting, both nutrition-wise, mental-wise? How do you approach and think of it as a coach in your own career, too, as an-
Again, wrestlers are some of the hardest, some of the toughest people in all of sports, but weight cutting often breaks people. So what’s your thought on weight cutting, both nutrition-wise, mental-wise? How do you approach and think of it as a coach in your own career, too, as an-
Tom Brands
It’s a lot of discipline, and it’s a lot of discipline during a very uncomfortable time period that really doesn’t last that long, but it feels like it lasts long and it’s painful. And but once you shrink your body down, and if you’re hydrated, you’ll get through it. If you’re a little hungry, but you’re eating, but you’re hydrated, once you break that sweat, your energy depletion goes away. That’s a fact. I’ve practiced that. You come in and you’re yawning, and you’re, you know, you’re starting to shrink your body down, and it’s that time of year where, “Hey, I gotta get my body shrunk down”, and you’re dehydrated, you are dead in the water. But if you’re hungry and hydrated, when you break that sweat…
It’s a lot of discipline, and it’s a lot of discipline during a very uncomfortable time period that really doesn’t last that long, but it feels like it lasts long and it’s painful. And but once you shrink your body down, and if you’re hydrated, you’ll get through it. If you’re a little hungry, but you’re eating, but you’re hydrated, once you break that sweat, your energy depletion goes away. That’s a fact. I’ve practiced that. You come in and you’re yawning, and you’re, you know, you’re starting to shrink your body down, and it’s that time of year where, “Hey, I gotta get my body shrunk down”, and you’re dehydrated, you are dead in the water. But if you’re hungry and hydrated, when you break that sweat…
Lex Fridman
Have people gotten better with that over the years, over the past few decades?
Have people gotten better with that over the years, over the past few decades?
Tom Brands
I think that coaches’ science is better. I think that coaches communicate it. I think they always have. I think the bottom line is having the energy to implement that, and taking a guy by the hand when he doesn’t understand, and he’s new in your program, and he’s essential, and/or he’s unwilling to and not disciplined enough. Because when you take him by the hand enough, they will learn that discipline. This is an important aspect of wrestling, buddy. You know what I’m saying? So, you know, it’s not just go and show up for the match. I mean, it’s not about just making weight either. You gotta be able to make weight. That’s part of the warm-up, that’s part of the process, getting ready to wrestle.
I think that coaches’ science is better. I think that coaches communicate it. I think they always have. I think the bottom line is having the energy to implement that, and taking a guy by the hand when he doesn’t understand, and he’s new in your program, and he’s essential, and/or he’s unwilling to and not disciplined enough. Because when you take him by the hand enough, they will learn that discipline. This is an important aspect of wrestling, buddy. You know what I’m saying? So, you know, it’s not just go and show up for the match. I mean, it’s not about just making weight either. You gotta be able to make weight. That’s part of the warm-up, that’s part of the process, getting ready to wrestle.
Lex Fridman
The whole thing. It’s a lifestyle. Yeah.
The whole thing. It’s a lifestyle. Yeah.
Olympic dreams
Lex Fridman
When did you first start believing you’re going to win Olympic gold?
When did you first start believing you’re going to win Olympic gold?
Tom Brands
Uh, I don’t know. I mean, I found out… I got really addicted to wrestling really, really fast. Started late, but looking back at my life, wrestled my whole life with my twin brother. And when Terry and I would fight, it was wrestling and it was to maim. And so if you’re trying to maim me, I better be tough, ’cause if I roll over and expect you to scratch my belly when you’re trying to maim me, I will lose my head. And Tom and Terry Brands, there was no alpha male. And when it was on, it was on for real.
Uh, I don’t know. I mean, I found out… I got really addicted to wrestling really, really fast. Started late, but looking back at my life, wrestled my whole life with my twin brother. And when Terry and I would fight, it was wrestling and it was to maim. And so if you’re trying to maim me, I better be tough, ’cause if I roll over and expect you to scratch my belly when you’re trying to maim me, I will lose my head. And Tom and Terry Brands, there was no alpha male. And when it was on, it was on for real.
Lex Fridman
What do you mean there’s no alpha male? There’s both-
What do you mean there’s no alpha male? There’s both-
Tom Brands
There was… A lot of twins, there’s a dominant twin. Oh, a lot of them. Very few times is there a situation where you’re gonna, “I’m gonna win every time in everything”, and then he’s thinking the same exact way. And Terry used to describe it like in, when we used to get interviewed a lot about our careers like, it’d be like you grabbing a steering wheel and me grabbing a steering wheel and fighting. And that’s what it was like when you would wrestle him or fight him. And so I had that benefit. So when did I know? Well, I got addicted to wrestling really, really fast in fifth grade, and started to research it, and I don’t know why. And talked about the Olympics, and put it in my head. And remember said something about being an Olympic champion in fifth grade, and-
There was… A lot of twins, there’s a dominant twin. Oh, a lot of them. Very few times is there a situation where you’re gonna, “I’m gonna win every time in everything”, and then he’s thinking the same exact way. And Terry used to describe it like in, when we used to get interviewed a lot about our careers like, it’d be like you grabbing a steering wheel and me grabbing a steering wheel and fighting. And that’s what it was like when you would wrestle him or fight him. And so I had that benefit. So when did I know? Well, I got addicted to wrestling really, really fast in fifth grade, and started to research it, and I don’t know why. And talked about the Olympics, and put it in my head. And remember said something about being an Olympic champion in fifth grade, and-
Tom Brands
… somebody made fun of me, and I got in a fight in the playground. And I remember getting pulled in, getting in trouble for that. And the people that got me in trouble for that were smart enough to not rake me over the coals, but they researched or they actually found out what the fight was about. And I was distraught. I was, I was really emotional, like crying or whatever you wanna say. You don’t wanna admit that too many times, but it wasn’t because I got beat up or got my nose bloodied-
… somebody made fun of me, and I got in a fight in the playground. And I remember getting pulled in, getting in trouble for that. And the people that got me in trouble for that were smart enough to not rake me over the coals, but they researched or they actually found out what the fight was about. And I was distraught. I was, I was really emotional, like crying or whatever you wanna say. You don’t wanna admit that too many times, but it wasn’t because I got beat up or got my nose bloodied-
Tom Brands
… or got punched in the face or broke my arm, or there was any pain, it was because they stomped on my dream and they doubted me. And so I fought for that. And, you know, that was a lesson. There’s gonna be a lot of doubters, and one, one thing we talk about as a staff is our staff has to be lockstep in that hallway, in our offices. And when you deviate outside of that, that is heresy.
… or got punched in the face or broke my arm, or there was any pain, it was because they stomped on my dream and they doubted me. And so I fought for that. And, you know, that was a lesson. There’s gonna be a lot of doubters, and one, one thing we talk about as a staff is our staff has to be lockstep in that hallway, in our offices. And when you deviate outside of that, that is heresy.
Lex Fridman
So everybody has to be on board, confident that you’re going to be number one in the country-
So everybody has to be on board, confident that you’re going to be number one in the country-
Tom Brands
When we go forward-
When we go forward-
Lex Fridman
… number one in the world
… number one in the world
Tom Brands
… and we go put our public foot forward, there is a decision, we are unified, and there is no backbiting.
… and we go put our public foot forward, there is a decision, we are unified, and there is no backbiting.
Tom Brands
And we have great people right now, and we hadn’t had that before. We’ve had detractors in our Hawkeye Wrestling Club. We’ve had guys that would go out and get rolled up in ankle laces and not care in our club. And we got Brandon Sorensen, who got rolled up by James Green last night, but I’ll tell you what, I don’t have a problem with that. You know why? Because I know it means a lot to him. He didn’t roll over. He didn’t quit because he was on the consolation side of a bracket. And so when you have that, and then you have, you know, if there’s a disagreement, it’s behind closed doors, and then you’re moving forward. And when you have people that when they’re meeting your fans and your supporters, you know, they’re talking the right way with the right message.
And we have great people right now, and we hadn’t had that before. We’ve had detractors in our Hawkeye Wrestling Club. We’ve had guys that would go out and get rolled up in ankle laces and not care in our club. And we got Brandon Sorensen, who got rolled up by James Green last night, but I’ll tell you what, I don’t have a problem with that. You know why? Because I know it means a lot to him. He didn’t roll over. He didn’t quit because he was on the consolation side of a bracket. And so when you have that, and then you have, you know, if there’s a disagreement, it’s behind closed doors, and then you’re moving forward. And when you have people that when they’re meeting your fans and your supporters, you know, they’re talking the right way with the right message.
Tom Brands
And anything that’s cattywampus to that, you gotta be careful there. You gotta be careful there.
And anything that’s cattywampus to that, you gotta be careful there. You gotta be careful there.
Lex Fridman
So that in terms of affirmations, in terms of really believing as a team, as an individual, believing that you’re the best in the world, did, did you… I’m sure you had detractors. You had people that continued after fifth grade-
So that in terms of affirmations, in terms of really believing as a team, as an individual, believing that you’re the best in the world, did, did you… I’m sure you had detractors. You had people that continued after fifth grade-
Tom Brands
And that’s probably where my hatred of losing trumps my love for winning because I wanted to shove it up their rear end bad. And the thing is, is we maintain a high level, and there’s very few programs. Oklahoma State, Ohio State now, Penn State, I mean, there’s four programs that try to win a national title every year, and that’s it. And these, these, these other teams, they get up, and they, they got a good team. And they get up, and they get going. And then when, when things don’t go well, “Okay, we’re gonna do it next year,” or, “This is a down year. We’re gonna, we’re gonna get ready. We’re three years out.”
And that’s probably where my hatred of losing trumps my love for winning because I wanted to shove it up their rear end bad. And the thing is, is we maintain a high level, and there’s very few programs. Oklahoma State, Ohio State now, Penn State, I mean, there’s four programs that try to win a national title every year, and that’s it. And these, these, these other teams, they get up, and they, they got a good team. And they get up, and they get going. And then when, when things don’t go well, “Okay, we’re gonna do it next year,” or, “This is a down year. We’re gonna, we’re gonna get ready. We’re three years out.”
Lex Fridman
So no matter what, you’re fighting for first place.
So no matter what, you’re fighting for first place.
Tom Brands
We do, and we haven’t won, and now you can say, “Well, we haven’t won in eight years.” Well, you’re right, we haven’t. But look at our results. They’re better, better than anybody out there, and it’s because- and besides Penn State, and it’s because of our mentality and because we have great people. Ryan Morningstar, Bobby Telford, Terry Brands, our medical team even, our strength coach, Quinn Holland, we’re all on the same page. And when I sense something, I hit it immediately. I don’t have time to waste. There will not be dissension in that hallway.
We do, and we haven’t won, and now you can say, “Well, we haven’t won in eight years.” Well, you’re right, we haven’t. But look at our results. They’re better, better than anybody out there, and it’s because- and besides Penn State, and it’s because of our mentality and because we have great people. Ryan Morningstar, Bobby Telford, Terry Brands, our medical team even, our strength coach, Quinn Holland, we’re all on the same page. And when I sense something, I hit it immediately. I don’t have time to waste. There will not be dissension in that hallway.
Lex Fridman
Everybody’s in together, yeah.
Everybody’s in together, yeah.
1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta
Lex Fridman
1996, Olympic Games in Atlanta. Can you take me through the day when you’re going for the 62 kg gold? What did you eat, drink? What did you think? What was on your mind?
1996, Olympic Games in Atlanta. Can you take me through the day when you’re going for the 62 kg gold? What did you eat, drink? What did you think? What was on your mind?
Tom Brands
Oh, it really doesn’t matter. I have a routine that, you know, I had a routine as a competitor that I could run through right now. It was a lot of self-talk, very, very positive self-talk.
Oh, it really doesn’t matter. I have a routine that, you know, I had a routine as a competitor that I could run through right now. It was a lot of self-talk, very, very positive self-talk.
Lex Fridman
Visualization?
Visualization?
Tom Brands
Yes, visualization, self-talk, and that’s how I was able to relax in getting ready for matches my whole life. Learned that very early age at a camp, in a developmental camp at a young age, Terry and I did. And I can tell you what I ate, and I can tell you what I did to relax, and it doesn’t matter. What you have to do is you have to find that peace, and I just know that when I was getting ready for the finals match, I had gone back to my room. I had my relaxed material, you know, and I was able to relax because I prepared for it.
Yes, visualization, self-talk, and that’s how I was able to relax in getting ready for matches my whole life. Learned that very early age at a camp, in a developmental camp at a young age, Terry and I did. And I can tell you what I ate, and I can tell you what I did to relax, and it doesn’t matter. What you have to do is you have to find that peace, and I just know that when I was getting ready for the finals match, I had gone back to my room. I had my relaxed material, you know, and I was able to relax because I prepared for it.
Lex Fridman
Hopefully I’m right on this, but just looking at the insane bracket you had to go through, you had to beat, just to get to the finals, you had to beat three world champions, eventually world ch- I mean, they’ve-
Hopefully I’m right on this, but just looking at the insane bracket you had to go through, you had to beat, just to get to the finals, you had to beat three world champions, eventually world ch- I mean, they’ve-
Tom Brands
And you know what? I don’t talk about that, and nobody else does either, but everybody talks about it in their own career. So now you’re making my head big. But yeah, I had a road. I had a road. You’re right.
And you know what? I don’t talk about that, and nobody else does either, but everybody talks about it in their own career. So now you’re making my head big. But yeah, I had a road. I had a road. You’re right.
Lex Fridman
That’s, that is the hardest bracket I’ve seen. So I’ve talked to a lot of Olympic champions. That is the hardest bracket I’ve seen of any champion. So maybe I’m confused on this, but it seemed like a really tough day for you. Did you have, did you know the bracket ahead of time? Did you know who you faced?
That’s, that is the hardest bracket I’ve seen. So I’ve talked to a lot of Olympic champions. That is the hardest bracket I’ve seen of any champion. So maybe I’m confused on this, but it seemed like a really tough day for you. Did you have, did you know the bracket ahead of time? Did you know who you faced?
Tom Brands
You see the draw, and it’s a two-day tournament, so psychology comes into it as much as physical shape, you know, because there’s those, you gotta sleep, you know, the night before, after the weigh-in, then you gotta sleep again that next night after your semifinal match is gonna be in the morning, you know? And then you have to go back and rest ’cause your final match isn’t until whatever time it was. And so all this relaxation and all that stuff that you just talked about, that visualization and self-talk, that’s what helps. It’s your routine. You know-
You see the draw, and it’s a two-day tournament, so psychology comes into it as much as physical shape, you know, because there’s those, you gotta sleep, you know, the night before, after the weigh-in, then you gotta sleep again that next night after your semifinal match is gonna be in the morning, you know? And then you have to go back and rest ’cause your final match isn’t until whatever time it was. And so all this relaxation and all that stuff that you just talked about, that visualization and self-talk, that’s what helps. It’s your routine. You know-
Lex Fridman
And was there any doubt, any fear, any- anything there?
And was there any doubt, any fear, any- anything there?
Tom Brands
The fear is the type of fear, and I just talked about this to one of my athletes today. Jack Dempsey talked about fear, and the fear of losing is what motivated him to try to take his opponent’s head off. He was a boxer. And that’s okay. So fear of competition, fear of screwing up, fear of, “Oh, I don’t feel good,” no. No, but that little fear that, you know what, there’s somebody out there that thinks that, you know what, they, they’re gonna, they’re gonna revel in my, they’re gonna, they’re gonna, they’re gonna eat it up in my misery. They’re gonna love, they’re gonna be thriving because I fail, and, and I’m not gonna let that happen.
The fear is the type of fear, and I just talked about this to one of my athletes today. Jack Dempsey talked about fear, and the fear of losing is what motivated him to try to take his opponent’s head off. He was a boxer. And that’s okay. So fear of competition, fear of screwing up, fear of, “Oh, I don’t feel good,” no. No, but that little fear that, you know what, there’s somebody out there that thinks that, you know what, they, they’re gonna, they’re gonna revel in my, they’re gonna, they’re gonna, they’re gonna eat it up in my misery. They’re gonna love, they’re gonna be thriving because I fail, and, and I’m not gonna let that happen.
Brother
Lex Fridman
Your identical twin brother, Terry, you’ve been at him, like you said, your whole life, and you’re both some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. You won the gold medal. He won the bronze medal. You’ve mentioned, you know, all that really matters is the six minutes or, you know, just a few minutes, sometimes a few seconds define your whole career. So how do you think about that thin line, the tragic line at the Olympic level between winning and losing?
Your identical twin brother, Terry, you’ve been at him, like you said, your whole life, and you’re both some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. You won the gold medal. He won the bronze medal. You’ve mentioned, you know, all that really matters is the six minutes or, you know, just a few minutes, sometimes a few seconds define your whole career. So how do you think about that thin line, the tragic line at the Olympic level between winning and losing?
Tom Brands
I think you come to peace that in the end when it’s over that you did the best you could And that’s certainly the case with Terry. He has a career credentials are better than mine internationally. You know, he won two world championships, I won one, and he won an Olympic bronze medal. And you know, I won an Olympic gold medal, but I only won one. And, and the thing is, is that’s not what’s important anyway. What’s important is, is that when it’s all over, you know, how do you look back on it? And you’re kinda like, “Well, you just said that you made sure that you weren’t gonna leave anything undone.” But you know what? There were tournaments where I did leave things undone. And so how do you come back from that? Well, Terry never came back from 2000 ’cause he retired.
I think you come to peace that in the end when it’s over that you did the best you could And that’s certainly the case with Terry. He has a career credentials are better than mine internationally. You know, he won two world championships, I won one, and he won an Olympic bronze medal. And you know, I won an Olympic gold medal, but I only won one. And, and the thing is, is that’s not what’s important anyway. What’s important is, is that when it’s all over, you know, how do you look back on it? And you’re kinda like, “Well, you just said that you made sure that you weren’t gonna leave anything undone.” But you know what? There were tournaments where I did leave things undone. And so how do you come back from that? Well, Terry never came back from 2000 ’cause he retired.
Tom Brands
Well, you know what? You duplicate and exceed when you’re communicating to these young athletes, and because of that experience, that makes Terry a better coach. Because of, you know, 1995, that makes me a better coach, you know, realizing that there are certain things that unraveled in that year that I coulda controlled looking back on it. And when you have that perspective, you can communicate.
Well, you know what? You duplicate and exceed when you’re communicating to these young athletes, and because of that experience, that makes Terry a better coach. Because of, you know, 1995, that makes me a better coach, you know, realizing that there are certain things that unraveled in that year that I coulda controlled looking back on it. And when you have that perspective, you can communicate.
Lex Fridman
So what… Control. Is there… Can you control everything? How big of a role is luck in this whole thing?
So what… Control. Is there… Can you control everything? How big of a role is luck in this whole thing?
Tom Brands
Control how you react to an injury. Control that. So you can’t, you don’t have any control over it, it’s over, you know, you have whatever, and whatever happened, but relax and you learn to deal with injuries better because of that. You have that experience that you let this thing maybe get the best of you, and that’s just an example. And, you know, Terry put a lot of demons to rest with that bronze medal.
Control how you react to an injury. Control that. So you can’t, you don’t have any control over it, it’s over, you know, you have whatever, and whatever happened, but relax and you learn to deal with injuries better because of that. You have that experience that you let this thing maybe get the best of you, and that’s just an example. And, you know, Terry put a lot of demons to rest with that bronze medal.
Lex Fridman
So becoming an Olympic medalist-
So becoming an Olympic medalist-
Tom Brands
Yeah, he got-
Yeah, he got-
Lex Fridman
… a few demons could relax.
… a few demons could relax.
Tom Brands
Well, a little. And he will never admit that, and he probably is truthful, and I should, I’m speaking for him, but he’s truthful when he says that. But if I look at it, and bronze sucks, but if I look at it, he did put some demons to rest and I’m proud of him for it. There’s something there that is a consolation in the fact that he won the consolation medal. The consolation medal sucks, but there is a consolation that he won the consolation medal.
Well, a little. And he will never admit that, and he probably is truthful, and I should, I’m speaking for him, but he’s truthful when he says that. But if I look at it, and bronze sucks, but if I look at it, he did put some demons to rest and I’m proud of him for it. There’s something there that is a consolation in the fact that he won the consolation medal. The consolation medal sucks, but there is a consolation that he won the consolation medal.
Lex Fridman
That’s a tough medal to win, by the way. Yeah. But do you see the Shakespearean tragedy of it all that the line between winning and losing? So you often say that, you know, winning is everything, but it feels like, especially at the Olympic level, or you talk about NCAA finals or that tournament, you know, a split second miss move can result in a loss where you dominated all the way up to there.
That’s a tough medal to win, by the way. Yeah. But do you see the Shakespearean tragedy of it all that the line between winning and losing? So you often say that, you know, winning is everything, but it feels like, especially at the Olympic level, or you talk about NCAA finals or that tournament, you know, a split second miss move can result in a loss where you dominated all the way up to there.
Tom Brands
That’s where your psychology comes in, and that’s where the repetition and all of the self-talk and visualization and the physical shape and everything comes together. And so that doesn’t happen. And tonight, we got beat twice, actually three times, and we outwrestled those. We lost three matches and we outwrestled the guy for six minutes and- … 30 seconds. Or one match went to overtime. And if our guys can move forward with the right perspective, I’m confident that they’ll be better. Um, I’ll tell you what, I’d take our guy over their guy any day, any day, ’cause our guys get up for every match. And now we got a lot to work on.
That’s where your psychology comes in, and that’s where the repetition and all of the self-talk and visualization and the physical shape and everything comes together. And so that doesn’t happen. And tonight, we got beat twice, actually three times, and we outwrestled those. We lost three matches and we outwrestled the guy for six minutes and- … 30 seconds. Or one match went to overtime. And if our guys can move forward with the right perspective, I’m confident that they’ll be better. Um, I’ll tell you what, I’d take our guy over their guy any day, any day, ’cause our guys get up for every match. And now we got a lot to work on.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Tom Brands
We got a lot to work on. But you know what? I can say all that, and I’ll take our guy and blah, blah, blah, but what are they gonna do tonight in their meal?
We got a lot to work on. But you know what? I can say all that, and I’ll take our guy and blah, blah, blah, but what are they gonna do tonight in their meal?
Lex Fridman
How are they gonna grow?
How are they gonna grow?
Tom Brands
What are they gonna do tonight in their rest? What are they gonna do tomorrow in their recovery on their own necessarily? What are they gonna do Monday? Great wrestlers can use their imagination with a win that they’re not satisfied with and go forward as if it was a loss, but it’s still easier to go forward with that win. But they can… They don’t just, “Oh, I won, I’m fine,” and goes on. But then when they lose the exact same way that they could have lost before, then they go off the deep end, and then that’s when they’re gonna make the change in their life. And we talked to, we talked about that to our team tonight, and the mature, rare ingredient is guys that can get better even with success like it was a loss without beating themselves up. That’s complicated.
What are they gonna do tonight in their rest? What are they gonna do tomorrow in their recovery on their own necessarily? What are they gonna do Monday? Great wrestlers can use their imagination with a win that they’re not satisfied with and go forward as if it was a loss, but it’s still easier to go forward with that win. But they can… They don’t just, “Oh, I won, I’m fine,” and goes on. But then when they lose the exact same way that they could have lost before, then they go off the deep end, and then that’s when they’re gonna make the change in their life. And we talked to, we talked about that to our team tonight, and the mature, rare ingredient is guys that can get better even with success like it was a loss without beating themselves up. That’s complicated.
Lex Fridman
It is. It’s a balance.
It is. It’s a balance.
Champion mindset
Lex Fridman
You often talk about Iowa’s focus on creating individual champions, like Spencer Lee. Can you explain the philosophy of focusing on individuals versus the team?
You often talk about Iowa’s focus on creating individual champions, like Spencer Lee. Can you explain the philosophy of focusing on individuals versus the team?
Tom Brands
I think that we need to put them both together, and the individual impacts the team. And you know, we haven’t done that since 2010, and we need to do a better job of putting 10 weight classes out there that contribute to the team, and if it’s not 10, then it’s nine. And if it’s not nine, it can’t be four, you know? And that takes a lot of pride and it takes a lot of, you know, where the coach is on top of it. And, you know, you’re not just working on the easy things, the glaring things. You’re working on everything.
I think that we need to put them both together, and the individual impacts the team. And you know, we haven’t done that since 2010, and we need to do a better job of putting 10 weight classes out there that contribute to the team, and if it’s not 10, then it’s nine. And if it’s not nine, it can’t be four, you know? And that takes a lot of pride and it takes a lot of, you know, where the coach is on top of it. And, you know, you’re not just working on the easy things, the glaring things. You’re working on everything.
Lex Fridman
What do you mean by everything? So the v-
What do you mean by everything? So the v-
Tom Brands
Well, like there’s just some, you know, there’s ideas when you’re a coach that aren’t, they’re beneath the surface and you gotta find them. And so when you’re-
Well, like there’s just some, you know, there’s ideas when you’re a coach that aren’t, they’re beneath the surface and you gotta find them. And so when you’re-
Lex Fridman
And that’s where communication comes in.
And that’s where communication comes in.
Tom Brands
Yeah, but you’re talking about, “Yeah, we gotta move forward.” Well, what does that mean? Well, I know what that means, but how many, how many guys really know what that means in their program? You know, I think there’s so many levels of that
Yeah, but you’re talking about, “Yeah, we gotta move forward.” Well, what does that mean? Well, I know what that means, but how many, how many guys really know what that means in their program? You know, I think there’s so many levels of that
Lex Fridman
You’ve said before that winning is everything. And that means people lose. Most people lose. You know, there’s really, in whatever the context, there’s only one winner. In many parts of our world today outside of wrestling, that concept, the brutal honesty of that is uncomfortable for people. So how, how do you think about this very philosophical, difficult concept of, you know, there only being one winner, that winning is everything, this kind of really painful idea?
You’ve said before that winning is everything. And that means people lose. Most people lose. You know, there’s really, in whatever the context, there’s only one winner. In many parts of our world today outside of wrestling, that concept, the brutal honesty of that is uncomfortable for people. So how, how do you think about this very philosophical, difficult concept of, you know, there only being one winner, that winning is everything, this kind of really painful idea?
Tom Brands
I don’t think that that’s a bad thing to have that mentality. I mean, I think at Khoudiakov. Um, I remember a story I read about him. He comes to mind. You know Sargis, I remember when he lost in London, and I remember the look on his face, and those are some of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the sport, freestyle wrestling. And you know what? It’s what works for you. And you, you can talk about being at peace with your results and, and that the approach is and the journey is what it’s about, but… And that’s great-
I don’t think that that’s a bad thing to have that mentality. I mean, I think at Khoudiakov. Um, I remember a story I read about him. He comes to mind. You know Sargis, I remember when he lost in London, and I remember the look on his face, and those are some of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the sport, freestyle wrestling. And you know what? It’s what works for you. And you, you can talk about being at peace with your results and, and that the approach is and the journey is what it’s about, but… And that’s great-
Tom Brands
… and that relaxes some champions, and that makes some champions really, really tick. But not everybody. So it’s okay. It’s okay. And if that wigs you out and that, that really makes you uptight, then go the other route. You have to find what works for you. And that takes a lot of work. If you’re lazy, forget it. Forget it.
… and that relaxes some champions, and that makes some champions really, really tick. But not everybody. So it’s okay. It’s okay. And if that wigs you out and that, that really makes you uptight, then go the other route. You have to find what works for you. And that takes a lot of work. If you’re lazy, forget it. Forget it.
Lex Fridman
So you and Terry, but in general, how do you find the line between extremely physical, extreme physical wrestling and rough wrestling or angry wrestling? So to which degree has anger, whether it’s in your wrestling room these days or in your own career, entered wrestling? Do you see it as a tool that can be used in the wrestling match as a neg-
So you and Terry, but in general, how do you find the line between extremely physical, extreme physical wrestling and rough wrestling or angry wrestling? So to which degree has anger, whether it’s in your wrestling room these days or in your own career, entered wrestling? Do you see it as a tool that can be used in the wrestling match as a neg-
Tom Brands
I think there’s a balance and, or not even a balance. There’s a line that you go up to, and you can’t cross it. Sportsmanship is everything. You can get dinged for points. You can get thrown out of tournaments. There’s rules with flagrant misconduct where you’re kicked out of the match, other team gets the points, and then you have to sit the next meet. So it’s very serious. The NCAA sends a message, a very serious message about sportsmanship.
I think there’s a balance and, or not even a balance. There’s a line that you go up to, and you can’t cross it. Sportsmanship is everything. You can get dinged for points. You can get thrown out of tournaments. There’s rules with flagrant misconduct where you’re kicked out of the match, other team gets the points, and then you have to sit the next meet. So it’s very serious. The NCAA sends a message, a very serious message about sportsmanship.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Brands
And so we talk about that. And the other thing with wrestling is there’s rules in wrestling. These guys that are tough guys outside of the rules, that’s what you want in your opponent. That means they’re frustrated.
And so we talk about that. And the other thing with wrestling is there’s rules in wrestling. These guys that are tough guys outside of the rules, that’s what you want in your opponent. That means they’re frustrated.
Lex Fridman
Exactly.
Exactly.
Tom Brands
You gotta be a tough guy inside the rules of the sport. That’s more honorable than cold-cocking somebody and knocking them out.
You gotta be a tough guy inside the rules of the sport. That’s more honorable than cold-cocking somebody and knocking them out.
Lex Fridman
So yeah, anger doesn’t mean breaking the rules. But I mean, you know, a lot of people know you just watching you as a coach. There’s quite a bit of passion there.
So yeah, anger doesn’t mean breaking the rules. But I mean, you know, a lot of people know you just watching you as a coach. There’s quite a bit of passion there.
Tom Brands
Well, come and do what you’re doing tonight. I mean, break bread with me in my kitchen and see how big of a jackass I am.
Well, come and do what you’re doing tonight. I mean, break bread with me in my kitchen and see how big of a jackass I am.
Lex Fridman
No, you’re a pretty nice guy. I can vouch for-
No, you’re a pretty nice guy. I can vouch for-
Tom Brands
Well, I’m not asking for that necessarily, but thanks. I’m saying… you know what? As a coach, I mean, come… Okay, come spend a month in our program, and you’ll see really what kind of people we are. And there’s a stigma out there because they are very threatened by our program. There’s nobody else that threatens the sport of wrestling like we do, and that’s the truth.
Well, I’m not asking for that necessarily, but thanks. I’m saying… you know what? As a coach, I mean, come… Okay, come spend a month in our program, and you’ll see really what kind of people we are. And there’s a stigma out there because they are very threatened by our program. There’s nobody else that threatens the sport of wrestling like we do, and that’s the truth.
Lex Fridman
There’s a legend to Iowa wrestling. There’s… It’s one of the most intimidating sort of symbols.
There’s a legend to Iowa wrestling. There’s… It’s one of the most intimidating sort of symbols.
Tom Brands
There’s a legend to John Smith. It’s the same thing.
There’s a legend to John Smith. It’s the same thing.
Lex Fridman
But it hasn’t this-
But it hasn’t this-
Tom Brands
They get up for John Smith. They get up for Oklahoma State. They get up for Penn State. My question is, and, okay, I’ll answer it this way. I’ll give you an example. In my coaching career, I coached at Virginia Tech for 22 months. We recruited the number one recruiting class. We got the administration to change 100%, 180 how they looked at wrestling. Here’s the thing, and because of how serious we were and because we weren’t idiots, we were able to do that with our administration. But my point is this: we tried to win. We tried to win, even at Virginia Tech. It wasn’t a stepping stone for me. It ended up being one quickly. And looking back on it, I was a fool to think that I’d be there for 20 years. That’s what I thought.
They get up for John Smith. They get up for Oklahoma State. They get up for Penn State. My question is, and, okay, I’ll answer it this way. I’ll give you an example. In my coaching career, I coached at Virginia Tech for 22 months. We recruited the number one recruiting class. We got the administration to change 100%, 180 how they looked at wrestling. Here’s the thing, and because of how serious we were and because we weren’t idiots, we were able to do that with our administration. But my point is this: we tried to win. We tried to win, even at Virginia Tech. It wasn’t a stepping stone for me. It ended up being one quickly. And looking back on it, I was a fool to think that I’d be there for 20 years. That’s what I thought.
Lex Fridman
But you believed you would be. I mean-
But you believed you would be. I mean-
Tom Brands
I did.
I did.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Brands
I did.
I did.
Beyond limits
Lex Fridman
So do you remember a time that you really pushed yourself to your limits? So Gable talks about having to be carried off the mat. Have you really found that level-
So do you remember a time that you really pushed yourself to your limits? So Gable talks about having to be carried off the mat. Have you really found that level-
Tom Brands
I said something about that too in a book, and I think I was misquoted one time. And actually it was Gable’s quote, and I was trying to make the point that Gable’s quote was like this, and, you know, they were making it like it was my own words. I think it was the first Wrestling Tough book. But…
I said something about that too in a book, and I think I was misquoted one time. And actually it was Gable’s quote, and I was trying to make the point that Gable’s quote was like this, and, you know, they were making it like it was my own words. I think it was the first Wrestling Tough book. But…
Lex Fridman
It’s a good book.
It’s a good book.
Tom Brands
… it’s a good book. But the story’s Gable’s, and I don’t know if there’s anybody that has done that besides him, and I think that’s a very rare quality. But I’ve definitely been in that nirvana level… of, you know, either is you could go all day long, and it doesn’t… You have to shoot me to stop me.
… it’s a good book. But the story’s Gable’s, and I don’t know if there’s anybody that has done that besides him, and I think that’s a very rare quality. But I’ve definitely been in that nirvana level… of, you know, either is you could go all day long, and it doesn’t… You have to shoot me to stop me.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Brands
But there’s a balance because you’re not going hard with and holding your breath. It’s not a ugh. It’s a relaxed… And, like, you got a guy cornered, and who’s most dangerous? Well, the guy that’s cornered, and so that’s where you relax. I’m not bum rushing him. I’m relaxed. I’m still moving, faking, very fluid. Guy falls down on his face, I run around behind him. That’s offense. You don’t have to just grunt to the leg and call that offense. Offense is an in and out, smooth, seamless.
But there’s a balance because you’re not going hard with and holding your breath. It’s not a ugh. It’s a relaxed… And, like, you got a guy cornered, and who’s most dangerous? Well, the guy that’s cornered, and so that’s where you relax. I’m not bum rushing him. I’m relaxed. I’m still moving, faking, very fluid. Guy falls down on his face, I run around behind him. That’s offense. You don’t have to just grunt to the leg and call that offense. Offense is an in and out, smooth, seamless.
Lex Fridman
Now you sound like a Russian wrestler.
Now you sound like a Russian wrestler.
Tom Brands
Yeah. Well, that’s, they’re the best.
Yeah. Well, that’s, they’re the best.
Lex Fridman
In a certain light, looking at the history of wrestling, wrestling is much bigger than folkstyle, freestyle, Greco. It’s one of the oldest forms of combat, period. There’s been cave drawings 15,000 years ago. Do you ever see… So you’re one of the great coaches of all time. You’re now focused on a particular rule style right now, but do you ever see wrestling as bigger than all of this, you know, as one of the pure combats between two human beings?
In a certain light, looking at the history of wrestling, wrestling is much bigger than folkstyle, freestyle, Greco. It’s one of the oldest forms of combat, period. There’s been cave drawings 15,000 years ago. Do you ever see… So you’re one of the great coaches of all time. You’re now focused on a particular rule style right now, but do you ever see wrestling as bigger than all of this, you know, as one of the pure combats between two human beings?
Tom Brands
I do, and we’re raising $20 million for a facility to make it the best facility on the planet. We have a vision to build the best facility on planet Earth and put the best wrestlers in it, and that is bigger than wrestling. It’s for the University of Iowa, and our donors are doing it for the University of Iowa, but it is about the value of wrestling to me also. There is so much value to wrestling. Blind people don’t play football. They wrestle. Blind people don’t play basketball. I mean, maybe they do, but it’d be very difficult. They can wrestle. Wrestling is a feel sport and-
I do, and we’re raising $20 million for a facility to make it the best facility on the planet. We have a vision to build the best facility on planet Earth and put the best wrestlers in it, and that is bigger than wrestling. It’s for the University of Iowa, and our donors are doing it for the University of Iowa, but it is about the value of wrestling to me also. There is so much value to wrestling. Blind people don’t play football. They wrestle. Blind people don’t play basketball. I mean, maybe they do, but it’d be very difficult. They can wrestle. Wrestling is a feel sport and-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, there’s no ball. There’s nothing. It’s just two guys or two girls, and that’s it.
Yeah, there’s no ball. There’s nothing. It’s just two guys or two girls, and that’s it.
Tom Brands
That’s right, and you… I mean, I’m not gonna say you can’t because somebody’ll get ahold of this, and… I’ll get an email or a letter that says, “You said blind people can’t play baseball,” and blah, blah. I’m just saying that blind people can wrestle very effectively.
That’s right, and you… I mean, I’m not gonna say you can’t because somebody’ll get ahold of this, and… I’ll get an email or a letter that says, “You said blind people can’t play baseball,” and blah, blah. I’m just saying that blind people can wrestle very effectively.
Lex Fridman
Yes.
Yes.
Tom Brands
I’ve wrestled with my eyes shut. I mean, I was honest about it, too, and I was effective.
I’ve wrestled with my eyes shut. I mean, I was honest about it, too, and I was effective.
Lex Fridman
So it’s-
So it’s-
Tom Brands
Why was I able to be effective? Because-
Why was I able to be effective? Because-
Lex Fridman
It’s feel.
It’s feel.
Tom Brands
… wrestling is a sport that you can overcome a lot. Your demons that you’re overcoming, they’re not limited with whether I’m blind or not. The demons that are overcoming are inside you.
… wrestling is a sport that you can overcome a lot. Your demons that you’re overcoming, they’re not limited with whether I’m blind or not. The demons that are overcoming are inside you.
Lex Fridman
No. It’s all mind.
No. It’s all mind.
Tom Brands
You have to overcome those demons from within.
You have to overcome those demons from within.
Lex Fridman
So what’s the future of Iowa wrestling look like with this facility and this momentum you have now-
So what’s the future of Iowa wrestling look like with this facility and this momentum you have now-
Tom Brands
It-
It-
Lex Fridman
… and this great group of guys you have now?
… and this great group of guys you have now?
Tom Brands
We have a good young group of guys, and you know, there is a lot of buzz in the program, and probably hasn’t been this much buzz for quite some time. And our job is to, you know, be relaxed and be focused and not get caught up in the buzz. But we have to put it together, and we have a catalyst, Spencer Lee, but he’s gonna have to, he’s gonna have to get better. And we have some other catalysts as well that are you know, gonna help us in the future. But they gotta get better. And so all this stuff about independence and accountability and, you know, being able to get better every day under duress and not knowing that you’re getting better, but you are, you know? You know what that, you know what I mean by that?
We have a good young group of guys, and you know, there is a lot of buzz in the program, and probably hasn’t been this much buzz for quite some time. And our job is to, you know, be relaxed and be focused and not get caught up in the buzz. But we have to put it together, and we have a catalyst, Spencer Lee, but he’s gonna have to, he’s gonna have to get better. And we have some other catalysts as well that are you know, gonna help us in the future. But they gotta get better. And so all this stuff about independence and accountability and, you know, being able to get better every day under duress and not knowing that you’re getting better, but you are, you know? You know what that, you know what I mean by that?
Tom Brands
Like, the great thing about Gable was, wrestling for him was, is you were getting better, and you didn’t know you were getting better.
Like, the great thing about Gable was, wrestling for him was, is you were getting better, and you didn’t know you were getting better.
Lex Fridman
Well, yeah, just like you said, grow from success, so even you, you never allow yourself to think that you’re getting good.
Well, yeah, just like you said, grow from success, so even you, you never allow yourself to think that you’re getting good.
Tom Brands
All of a sudden you do something in the practice room that you’ve been working on, and all of a sudden you hit it, and it’s like it was automatic. And then that, you know-
All of a sudden you do something in the practice room that you’ve been working on, and all of a sudden you hit it, and it’s like it was automatic. And then that, you know-
Lex Fridman
Builds
Builds
Tom Brands
… come, yeah, that multiplies success and…
… come, yeah, that multiplies success and…
Faith
Lex Fridman
So if I may say so, you’re a bit of a man of the Bible. What’s, where do you go, what do you go to the Bible for? Your faith- … for strength, love, patience, wisdom?
So if I may say so, you’re a bit of a man of the Bible. What’s, where do you go, what do you go to the Bible for? Your faith- … for strength, love, patience, wisdom?
Tom Brands
Same things I talked about. Things that you can’t control, you turn ’em over.
Same things I talked about. Things that you can’t control, you turn ’em over.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
Tom Brands
So the biggest thing for me is I gotta turn over the things that I can’t control, turn ’em over to that power, and I’m gonna be a lot better off. And that’s the reason why I’m not in the funny farm- … ’cause very competitive to me. It’s very serious that we know that these young wrestlers come to school here to be the best that they can be and to accomplish goals that, like me when I was young, they’ve set out to accomplish. And they chose Iowa to do that, so we have to deliver, and because of that peace with God, you know, it’s pure. It’s a pure motivation, and it’s a pure platform. It’s not, it’s not doing this for my ego. We’re not corrupt people. We’re not liars and cheaters, and so often that gets in the way of a decent person.
So the biggest thing for me is I gotta turn over the things that I can’t control, turn ’em over to that power, and I’m gonna be a lot better off. And that’s the reason why I’m not in the funny farm- … ’cause very competitive to me. It’s very serious that we know that these young wrestlers come to school here to be the best that they can be and to accomplish goals that, like me when I was young, they’ve set out to accomplish. And they chose Iowa to do that, so we have to deliver, and because of that peace with God, you know, it’s pure. It’s a pure motivation, and it’s a pure platform. It’s not, it’s not doing this for my ego. We’re not corrupt people. We’re not liars and cheaters, and so often that gets in the way of a decent person.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. First and foremost, you’re a good person, and God helps you be that.
Yeah. First and foremost, you’re a good person, and God helps you be that.
Tom Brands
Yeah, and we’re serious about wrestling.
Yeah, and we’re serious about wrestling.
Family
Lex Fridman
So a couple more questions. What’s the role of family in wrestling? You mentioned your wife, who I read turned you down when you asked her for her phone number, said, “It’s in the phone book.” That’s pretty smooth.
So a couple more questions. What’s the role of family in wrestling? You mentioned your wife, who I read turned you down when you asked her for her phone number, said, “It’s in the phone book.” That’s pretty smooth.
Tom Brands
Her story of that is that she didn’t want me to have to remember the number.
Her story of that is that she didn’t want me to have to remember the number.
Lex Fridman
Oh, she’s just being nice at this point.
Oh, she’s just being nice at this point.
Tom Brands
And I say, at this point, and I say, “There’s no way.” And I remember it very clearly. Like, “Hey, it’s in the phone book.” And I was like, “Okay, she’s blowing me off. That’s okay.”
And I say, at this point, and I say, “There’s no way.” And I remember it very clearly. Like, “Hey, it’s in the phone book.” And I was like, “Okay, she’s blowing me off. That’s okay.”
Lex Fridman
But luckily you don’t give up.
But luckily you don’t give up.
Tom Brands
Anyway, here’s the thing with family. I mean, we, we have great people in our program. We have great parents. We have a culture of parents that, that’s part of the buzz. And this class that you see wrestling right now that’s been here a year now Lee, Mirin, Castello, Warner, and then Lugo was a transfer, and I’m forgetting somebody, and I don’t wanna forget anybody. But these parents are phenomenal, and that’s a different parental culture. So the Kemerer’s dad is the same, and so there’s a lot of good there, and that’s a big, that’s a big- A big move because how we talk to parents, we don’t talk to parents to get along with them. We talk to parents to help them understand, you know, where we’re at with their sons.
Anyway, here’s the thing with family. I mean, we, we have great people in our program. We have great parents. We have a culture of parents that, that’s part of the buzz. And this class that you see wrestling right now that’s been here a year now Lee, Mirin, Castello, Warner, and then Lugo was a transfer, and I’m forgetting somebody, and I don’t wanna forget anybody. But these parents are phenomenal, and that’s a different parental culture. So the Kemerer’s dad is the same, and so there’s a lot of good there, and that’s a big, that’s a big- A big move because how we talk to parents, we don’t talk to parents to get along with them. We talk to parents to help them understand, you know, where we’re at with their sons.
Tom Brands
And when you can have a direct conversation with a parent who, helping his son or her son, the mom helping her son to be accountable and to own it, then you can get a lot accomplished, and that’s what we’ve been able to do. And so you’re solving problems, like I talked about earlier. That’s part of the family. The other part of the family is the coaches are like family. The other part of the family is the coaches’ significant others and wives are part of the family. And we fed, you know, we fed 40 guys and an entire coaching staff and wives and their children here at Thanksgiving. And that equals 70 people.
And when you can have a direct conversation with a parent who, helping his son or her son, the mom helping her son to be accountable and to own it, then you can get a lot accomplished, and that’s what we’ve been able to do. And so you’re solving problems, like I talked about earlier. That’s part of the family. The other part of the family is the coaches are like family. The other part of the family is the coaches’ significant others and wives are part of the family. And we fed, you know, we fed 40 guys and an entire coaching staff and wives and their children here at Thanksgiving. And that equals 70 people.
Tom Brands
And it’s fun. It’s fun. So family means administration. Gary Barta, my athletic director gives us everything that we need to be successful, and he has an open mind for the sport of wrestling. And wrestling’s important in Iowa, so that’s a no-brainer. But not if you’re not a wrestling guy. But he sees we do it the right way, and so the commitment is there from him. If we were doofuses, you know, he, the commitment wouldn’t be there.
And it’s fun. It’s fun. So family means administration. Gary Barta, my athletic director gives us everything that we need to be successful, and he has an open mind for the sport of wrestling. And wrestling’s important in Iowa, so that’s a no-brainer. But not if you’re not a wrestling guy. But he sees we do it the right way, and so the commitment is there from him. If we were doofuses, you know, he, the commitment wouldn’t be there.
Lex Fridman
So family is everybody’s all in. I mean, it’s from the wrestlers to the family, the significant others.
So family is everybody’s all in. I mean, it’s from the wrestlers to the family, the significant others.
Tom Brands
It goes back to what I said earlier about our people. Our people are great. Ryan Mordecai is great. Bobby Telford is great. Bobby Telford took over for a guy named Ben Berhow, who is great. Our medical team is great. Dr. Westerman, Dr. Wolf, Jesse Donnenwerth, our athletic trainer is great. Terry Brands is great. Mariah Stickley and Elise Owens, our managers are great. My daughter’s a manager as well. It’s great. They’re hardworking young women. Our Hawkeye Wrestling Club is where it needs to be in terms of how they help in their role, and now we have four women in there and that’s great. And, you know, at least one of their dads is super involved with us. But and so it’s…
It goes back to what I said earlier about our people. Our people are great. Ryan Mordecai is great. Bobby Telford is great. Bobby Telford took over for a guy named Ben Berhow, who is great. Our medical team is great. Dr. Westerman, Dr. Wolf, Jesse Donnenwerth, our athletic trainer is great. Terry Brands is great. Mariah Stickley and Elise Owens, our managers are great. My daughter’s a manager as well. It’s great. They’re hardworking young women. Our Hawkeye Wrestling Club is where it needs to be in terms of how they help in their role, and now we have four women in there and that’s great. And, you know, at least one of their dads is super involved with us. But and so it’s…
Tom Brands
One thing that I’ve learned is that you have to have that, and if you don’t have that, then you have to address it quickly. And those outliers, you know, let’s solve that problem. Let’s get it out in the open here.
One thing that I’ve learned is that you have to have that, and if you don’t have that, then you have to address it quickly. And those outliers, you know, let’s solve that problem. Let’s get it out in the open here.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Tom Brands
And if they’re, you know, if it doesn’t work out, it’s not gonna work out.
And if they’re, you know, if it doesn’t work out, it’s not gonna work out.
Lex Fridman
That’s a heck of a Thanksgiving dinner.
That’s a heck of a Thanksgiving dinner.
Tom Brands
Yeah. Next year… Well, I don’t know if it’d be legal, but- I’d have to check with our compliance and, you know, they’d have to vet you. You can come. You can come and see what it’s all about. This room is full.
Yeah. Next year… Well, I don’t know if it’d be legal, but- I’d have to check with our compliance and, you know, they’d have to vet you. You can come. You can come and see what it’s all about. This room is full.
Lex Fridman
Oh, man. Well, yeah, I’ll be back next year then.
Oh, man. Well, yeah, I’ll be back next year then.
Tom Brands
All right. Awesome.
All right. Awesome.
Brands vs Brands
Lex Fridman
Last question. In 2014, I watched this video four years ago of you competing in, I believe, your first swim meet against your brother Terry. And you came out victorious.
Last question. In 2014, I watched this video four years ago of you competing in, I believe, your first swim meet against your brother Terry. And you came out victorious.
Tom Brands
Not really.
Not really.
Lex Fridman
Okay. So let’s-
Okay. So let’s-
Tom Brands
I won the race, but-
I won the race, but-
Lex Fridman
Did you cheat?
Did you cheat?
Tom Brands
Here’s what happened. I had researched this thing because I’m, that’s how I am.
Here’s what happened. I had researched this thing because I’m, that’s how I am.
Lex Fridman
You practiced.
You practiced.
Tom Brands
No, I didn’t, but I researched it. In swimming, if you flinch on that starter block- … it’s a false start. You can’t twitch a finger and, because they would be doing that to get their buddy to move or the guy next to him, you know? So you have to be rock solid. Well, when we went, Terry was leaning forward as the gun was going off, so he’s moving. And so I was like, “No, no, no. False start. No, no, no, no.” And he couldn’t hear me. He was already in the water. And so he took off like a bat out of you know where- … for the end of the pool, and couldn’t hear me, and got to the end of the pool, and it was a down and back. Well, that’s a hard thing to do with a guy with no body fat. And so he burned a lot of energy.
No, I didn’t, but I researched it. In swimming, if you flinch on that starter block- … it’s a false start. You can’t twitch a finger and, because they would be doing that to get their buddy to move or the guy next to him, you know? So you have to be rock solid. Well, when we went, Terry was leaning forward as the gun was going off, so he’s moving. And so I was like, “No, no, no. False start. No, no, no, no.” And he couldn’t hear me. He was already in the water. And so he took off like a bat out of you know where- … for the end of the pool, and couldn’t hear me, and got to the end of the pool, and it was a down and back. Well, that’s a hard thing to do with a guy with no body fat. And so he burned a lot of energy.
Tom Brands
And he come up on that end of the pool and he was like, “Where’s, where’s he at?” ‘Cause he didn’t see me.
And he come up on that end of the pool and he was like, “Where’s, where’s he at?” ‘Cause he didn’t see me.
Lex Fridman
Huh.
Huh.
Tom Brands
And so we stopped him and then he came back and then we went another one and I beat him. But it’s the only time that, you know, I would say that he was tuckered out and that’s the reason why. And I’ll also say this, we did a time where we timed my race, the one I won, and then we timed his first down to the wall, and then we timed his, the actual race where once he hit the wall, we timed him on the way back, and he beat me. Now how’s that for being a-
And so we stopped him and then he came back and then we went another one and I beat him. But it’s the only time that, you know, I would say that he was tuckered out and that’s the reason why. And I’ll also say this, we did a time where we timed my race, the one I won, and then we timed his first down to the wall, and then we timed his, the actual race where once he hit the wall, we timed him on the way back, and he beat me. Now how’s that for being a-
Lex Fridman
That’s pretty honest.
That’s pretty honest.
Tom Brands
… honest-
… honest-
Lex Fridman
That’s pretty honest.
That’s pretty honest.
Tom Brands
… accountable- … person. And I’m gonna tell you something else, getting in those shorts- … those swimming trunks-
… accountable- … person. And I’m gonna tell you something else, getting in those shorts- … those swimming trunks-
Lex Fridman
That’s impressive.
That’s impressive.
Tom Brands
… they are tight.
… they are tight.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. So is there outside of wrestling, is there a thing that Terry got the better of you? I mean, I guess this could count as one that you’re still really bitter about that you need to avenge?
Yeah. So is there outside of wrestling, is there a thing that Terry got the better of you? I mean, I guess this could count as one that you’re still really bitter about that you need to avenge?
Tom Brands
I mean, that’s past. I mean, we, he’s got an Uno title. We have Uno World Championships. He’s got an Uno title. I have yet to have one. Morningstar has two titles. That’s unprecedented. So there’s only four trophies out there, and Terry’s got one of those and I don’t have one yet.
I mean, that’s past. I mean, we, he’s got an Uno title. We have Uno World Championships. He’s got an Uno title. I have yet to have one. Morningstar has two titles. That’s unprecedented. So there’s only four trophies out there, and Terry’s got one of those and I don’t have one yet.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Well, there’s still time. Tom, thank you so much for letting a Russian with a tie into your home. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tom Brands. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Marcus Aurelius. “The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Yeah. Well, there’s still time. Tom, thank you so much for letting a Russian with a tie into your home. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tom Brands. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Marcus Aurelius. “The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Transcript for Sean Carroll: The Nature of the Universe, Life, and Intelligence | Lex Fridman Podcast #26
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #26 with Sean Carroll.
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
that take you directly to that point in
the main video. Please note that the transcript is
human generated, and may have errors.
Here are some useful links:
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
that take you directly to that point in
the main video. Please note that the transcript is
human generated, and may have errors.
Here are some useful links:
- Go back to this episode’s main page
- Watch the full YouTube version of the podcast
Table of Contents
Here are the loose “chapters” in the conversation.
Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
- 0:00 – Introduction
- 2:21 – Understanding the universe and the mind
- 4:03 – Universe as an information processing system
- 9:34 – Simulation theory thought experiment
- 14:33 – Intelligent life in the observable universe
- 15:34 – Defining intelligent life
- 19:34 – SpaceX and space exploration
- 21:05 – Origin of life
- 29:40 – Interdisciplinary science and conversation
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Sean Carroll. He’s a theoretical physicist at Caltech, specializing in quantum mechanics, gravity, and cosmology. He’s the author of several popular books, one on the arrow of time called From Eternity to Here, one on the Higgs boson called Particle at the End of the Universe, and one on science and philosophy called The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself. He has an upcoming book on quantum mechanics that you can pre-order now called Something Deeply Hidden. He writes one of my favorite blogs on his website, preposterousuniverse.com.
The following is a conversation with Sean Carroll. He’s a theoretical physicist at Caltech, specializing in quantum mechanics, gravity, and cosmology. He’s the author of several popular books, one on the arrow of time called From Eternity to Here, one on the Higgs boson called Particle at the End of the Universe, and one on science and philosophy called The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself. He has an upcoming book on quantum mechanics that you can pre-order now called Something Deeply Hidden. He writes one of my favorite blogs on his website, preposterousuniverse.com.
Lex Fridman
I recommend clicking on the Greatest Hits link that lists accessible, interesting posts on the arrow of time, dark matter, dark energy, the Big Bang, general relativity, string theory, quantum mechanics, and the big meta questions about the philosophy of science, God, ethics, politics, academia, and much, much more. Finally, and perhaps most famously, he’s the host of a podcast called Mindscape that you should subscribe to and support on Patreon. Along with The Joe Rogan Experience, Sam Harris’s Making Sense, and Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History, Sean’s Mindscape podcast is one of my favorite ways to learn new ideas or explore different perspectives on ideas that I thought I understood. It was truly an honor to meet and spend a couple hours with Sean.
I recommend clicking on the Greatest Hits link that lists accessible, interesting posts on the arrow of time, dark matter, dark energy, the Big Bang, general relativity, string theory, quantum mechanics, and the big meta questions about the philosophy of science, God, ethics, politics, academia, and much, much more. Finally, and perhaps most famously, he’s the host of a podcast called Mindscape that you should subscribe to and support on Patreon. Along with The Joe Rogan Experience, Sam Harris’s Making Sense, and Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History, Sean’s Mindscape podcast is one of my favorite ways to learn new ideas or explore different perspectives on ideas that I thought I understood. It was truly an honor to meet and spend a couple hours with Sean.
Lex Fridman
It’s a bit heartbreaking to say that for the first time ever, the audio recorder for this podcast died in the middle of our conversation. There are technical reasons for this, having to do with phantom power, that I now understand and will avoid. It took me one hour to notice and fix the problem. So, much like the universe is 68% dark energy, roughly the same amount from this conversation was lost, except in the memories of the two people involved and in my notes. I’m sure we’ll talk again and continue this conversation on this podcast or on Sean’s, and of course, I look forward to it. This is The Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, iTunes, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter at lexfridman.
It’s a bit heartbreaking to say that for the first time ever, the audio recorder for this podcast died in the middle of our conversation. There are technical reasons for this, having to do with phantom power, that I now understand and will avoid. It took me one hour to notice and fix the problem. So, much like the universe is 68% dark energy, roughly the same amount from this conversation was lost, except in the memories of the two people involved and in my notes. I’m sure we’ll talk again and continue this conversation on this podcast or on Sean’s, and of course, I look forward to it. This is The Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, iTunes, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter at lexfridman.
Lex Fridman
And now, here’s my conversation with Sean Carroll.
And now, here’s my conversation with Sean Carroll.
Understanding the universe and the mind
Lex Fridman
What do you think is more interesting and impactful, understanding how the universe works at a fundamental level or understanding how the human mind works?
What do you think is more interesting and impactful, understanding how the universe works at a fundamental level or understanding how the human mind works?
Sean Carroll
You know of course, this is a crazy, meaningless, unanswerable question in some sense- … because they’re both very interesting and there’s no absolute scale of interestingness that we can rate them on. There’s the glib answer that says the human brain is part of the universe, right? And therefore, understanding the universe is more fundamental than understanding the human brain.
You know of course, this is a crazy, meaningless, unanswerable question in some sense- … because they’re both very interesting and there’s no absolute scale of interestingness that we can rate them on. There’s the glib answer that says the human brain is part of the universe, right? And therefore, understanding the universe is more fundamental than understanding the human brain.
Lex Fridman
But do you really believe that once we understand the fundamental way the universe works at the particle level, the forces, we would be able to understand how the mind works?
But do you really believe that once we understand the fundamental way the universe works at the particle level, the forces, we would be able to understand how the mind works?
Sean Carroll
No, certainly not.
No, certainly not.
Lex Fridman
All right.
All right.
Sean Carroll
We cannot understand how ice cream works just from understanding- … how particles work, right? So I’m a big believer in emergence. I’m a big believer that- … there are different ways of talking about the world beyond just the most fundamental microscopic one. You know, when we talk about tables and chairs and planets and people, we’re not talking the language of particle physics and cosmology. So, but understanding the universe, you didn’t say just at the most fundamental level, right? So understanding the universe at all levels is part of that. I do think, you know, to be a little bit more fair to the question, there probably are general principles of complexity, biology, information processing, memory, knowledge, creativity that go beyond just the human brain, right?
We cannot understand how ice cream works just from understanding- … how particles work, right? So I’m a big believer in emergence. I’m a big believer that- … there are different ways of talking about the world beyond just the most fundamental microscopic one. You know, when we talk about tables and chairs and planets and people, we’re not talking the language of particle physics and cosmology. So, but understanding the universe, you didn’t say just at the most fundamental level, right? So understanding the universe at all levels is part of that. I do think, you know, to be a little bit more fair to the question, there probably are general principles of complexity, biology, information processing, memory, knowledge, creativity that go beyond just the human brain, right?
Sean Carroll
And maybe one could count understanding those as part of understanding the universe. The human brain, as far as we know, is the most complex thing in the universe. So it’s certainly absurd to think that by understanding the fundamental laws of particle physics, you get any direct insight on how the brain works.
And maybe one could count understanding those as part of understanding the universe. The human brain, as far as we know, is the most complex thing in the universe. So it’s certainly absurd to think that by understanding the fundamental laws of particle physics, you get any direct insight on how the brain works.
Universe as an information processing system
Lex Fridman
But then there’s this step from the fundamentals of particle physics to information processing- … which a lot of physicists and philosophers maybe a little bit carelessly take when they talk about artificial intelligence. Do you think of the universe as a kind of a computational device?
But then there’s this step from the fundamentals of particle physics to information processing- … which a lot of physicists and philosophers maybe a little bit carelessly take when they talk about artificial intelligence. Do you think of the universe as a kind of a computational device?
Sean Carroll
No. To be, like, the honest answer there is no. There’s a sense in which the universe processes information, clearly. There’s a sense in which the universe is like a computer, clearly. But in some sense, I think I tried to say this once on my blog and no one agreed with me, but the universe is more like a computation than a computer because the universe happens once. A computer is a general purpose machine, right? That you can ask it different questions, even a pocket calculator, right? And it’s set up to answer certain kinds of questions. The universe isn’t that. So information processing happens in the universe, but it’s not what the universe is.
No. To be, like, the honest answer there is no. There’s a sense in which the universe processes information, clearly. There’s a sense in which the universe is like a computer, clearly. But in some sense, I think I tried to say this once on my blog and no one agreed with me, but the universe is more like a computation than a computer because the universe happens once. A computer is a general purpose machine, right? That you can ask it different questions, even a pocket calculator, right? And it’s set up to answer certain kinds of questions. The universe isn’t that. So information processing happens in the universe, but it’s not what the universe is.
Lex Fridman
Because-
Because-
Sean Carroll
And I know your MIT colleague, Seth Lloyd, feels very differently about this, right?
And I know your MIT colleague, Seth Lloyd, feels very differently about this, right?
Lex Fridman
Well, you’re thinking of the universe as a closed system.
Well, you’re thinking of the universe as a closed system.
Sean Carroll
I am.
I am.
Lex Fridman
So, so, so what, what makes a computer more like a, like a PC like a computing machine is that there’s a human that every once c- comes up to it and moves the mouse around. So input-
So, so, so what, what makes a computer more like a, like a PC like a computing machine is that there’s a human that every once c- comes up to it and moves the mouse around. So input-
Sean Carroll
Gives it input.
Gives it input.
Lex Fridman
… gives it input. And that’s why you’re saying it’s just a computation, a deterministic thing that’s just unrolling. But the immense complexity of it is nevertheless like processing. There’s a state, and then it changes with rules, and there’s a sense for a lot of people that if the brain operates, the human brain operates within that world, then it’s simply just a small subset of that. And so there’s no reason we can’t build arbitrarily great intelligences. Do you think of intelligence in this way?
… gives it input. And that’s why you’re saying it’s just a computation, a deterministic thing that’s just unrolling. But the immense complexity of it is nevertheless like processing. There’s a state, and then it changes with rules, and there’s a sense for a lot of people that if the brain operates, the human brain operates within that world, then it’s simply just a small subset of that. And so there’s no reason we can’t build arbitrarily great intelligences. Do you think of intelligence in this way?
Sean Carroll
Intelligence is tricky. I don’t have a definition of it offhand. So I remember this panel discussion that I saw on YouTube. I wasn’t there, but Seth Lloyd was on the panel, and so was Martin Rees, the famous astrophysicist, and Seth gave his shtick for why the universe is a computer, and he explained this, and Martin Rees said, “So what is not a computer?” And Seth was like, “Uh, that’s a good question. I’m not sure,” because if you have a sufficiently broad definition of what a computer is, then everything is, right? And the simile or the analogy gains force when it excludes some things. You know, is the moon going around the Earth performing a computation?
Intelligence is tricky. I don’t have a definition of it offhand. So I remember this panel discussion that I saw on YouTube. I wasn’t there, but Seth Lloyd was on the panel, and so was Martin Rees, the famous astrophysicist, and Seth gave his shtick for why the universe is a computer, and he explained this, and Martin Rees said, “So what is not a computer?” And Seth was like, “Uh, that’s a good question. I’m not sure,” because if you have a sufficiently broad definition of what a computer is, then everything is, right? And the simile or the analogy gains force when it excludes some things. You know, is the moon going around the Earth performing a computation?
Sean Carroll
I can come up with definitions in which the answer is yes, but it’s not a very useful computation. I think that it’s absolutely helpful to think about the universe in certain situations, certain contexts as an information processing device. I’m even guilty of writing a paper called Quantum Circuit Cosmology, where we modeled the whole universe as a quantum circuit.
I can come up with definitions in which the answer is yes, but it’s not a very useful computation. I think that it’s absolutely helpful to think about the universe in certain situations, certain contexts as an information processing device. I’m even guilty of writing a paper called Quantum Circuit Cosmology, where we modeled the whole universe as a quantum circuit.
Lex Fridman
As a circuit.
As a circuit.
Sean Carroll
As a circuit, yeah. And–
As a circuit, yeah. And–
Lex Fridman
With qubits kind of thing?
With qubits kind of thing?
Sean Carroll
With qubits, basically, right, yeah. So, and qubits becoming more and more entangled. So do we wanna, do you wanna digress a little bit? ‘Cause this is–
With qubits, basically, right, yeah. So, and qubits becoming more and more entangled. So do we wanna, do you wanna digress a little bit? ‘Cause this is–
Lex Fridman
Let’s do it.
Let’s do it.
Sean Carroll
… kind of fun. So here’s a mystery about the universe that is so deep and profound that nobody talks about it. Space expands, right? And we talk about in a certain region of space, a certain number of degrees of freedom, a certain number of ways that the quantum fields and the particles in that region can arrange themselves, that that number of degrees of freedom in a region of space is arguably finite. We actually don’t know-
… kind of fun. So here’s a mystery about the universe that is so deep and profound that nobody talks about it. Space expands, right? And we talk about in a certain region of space, a certain number of degrees of freedom, a certain number of ways that the quantum fields and the particles in that region can arrange themselves, that that number of degrees of freedom in a region of space is arguably finite. We actually don’t know-
Sean Carroll
… how many there are, but there’s a very good argument that says it’s a finite number. So as the universe expands and space gets bigger, are there more degrees of freedom? If it’s an infinite number, it doesn’t really matter. Infinity times two is still infinity, but if it’s a finite number, then there’s more space, so there’s more degrees of freedom. So where did they come from? That would mean the universe is not a closed system. There’s more degrees of freedom popping into existence.
… how many there are, but there’s a very good argument that says it’s a finite number. So as the universe expands and space gets bigger, are there more degrees of freedom? If it’s an infinite number, it doesn’t really matter. Infinity times two is still infinity, but if it’s a finite number, then there’s more space, so there’s more degrees of freedom. So where did they come from? That would mean the universe is not a closed system. There’s more degrees of freedom popping into existence.
Sean Carroll
So what we suggested was that there are more degrees of freedom, and it’s not that they’re not there to start, but they’re not entangled to start. So the universe that you and I know of, the three dimensions around us that we see, we said those are the entangled degrees of freedom making up spacetime. And as the universe expands, there are a whole bunch of qubits in their zero state that become entangled with the rest of spacetime through the action of these quantum circuits.
So what we suggested was that there are more degrees of freedom, and it’s not that they’re not there to start, but they’re not entangled to start. So the universe that you and I know of, the three dimensions around us that we see, we said those are the entangled degrees of freedom making up spacetime. And as the universe expands, there are a whole bunch of qubits in their zero state that become entangled with the rest of spacetime through the action of these quantum circuits.
Lex Fridman
So what does it mean that there’s now more degrees of freedom as they become more entangled?
So what does it mean that there’s now more degrees of freedom as they become more entangled?
Sean Carroll
Yeah. So the-
Yeah. So the-
Lex Fridman
As the universe expands?
As the universe expands?
Sean Carroll
That’s right. So there’s more and more degrees of freedom that are entangled, that are playing part– playing the role or part of the entangled spacetime structure. So the basic– the underlying philosophy is that spacetime itself arises from the entanglement of some fundamental quantum degrees of freedom.
That’s right. So there’s more and more degrees of freedom that are entangled, that are playing part– playing the role or part of the entangled spacetime structure. So the basic– the underlying philosophy is that spacetime itself arises from the entanglement of some fundamental quantum degrees of freedom.
Lex Fridman
Wow. Okay. So- … At which point is most of the entanglement happening? Are we talking about close to the Big Bang? Are we talking about throughout the time of the life of the-
Wow. Okay. So- … At which point is most of the entanglement happening? Are we talking about close to the Big Bang? Are we talking about throughout the time of the life of the-
Sean Carroll
Throughout history. Yeah. So the idea is that at the Big Bang, almost all the degrees of freedom that the universe could have were there, but they were unentangled with anything else. And that’s a reflection of the fact that the Big Bang had a low entropy. It was a very simple, very small place, and as space expands, more and more degrees of freedom become entangled with the rest of the world.
Throughout history. Yeah. So the idea is that at the Big Bang, almost all the degrees of freedom that the universe could have were there, but they were unentangled with anything else. And that’s a reflection of the fact that the Big Bang had a low entropy. It was a very simple, very small place, and as space expands, more and more degrees of freedom become entangled with the rest of the world.
Simulation theory thought experiment
Lex Fridman
Well, I have to ask, Sean Carroll, what do you think of the thought experiment from Nick Bostrom that we’re living in a simulation? So I think– let me contextualize that a little bit more. I think people don’t actually take this thought experiment … I think it’s quite interesting. It’s not very useful, but it’s quite interesting from the perspective of AI, a lot of the learning that can be done usually happens in simulation- … from artificial examples. And so it’s a constructive question to ask how difficult is our real world to simulate? Which is kind of a dual part of if we’re living in a simulation and somebody built that simulation, how hard– if you were to try to do it yourself, how hard would it be?
Well, I have to ask, Sean Carroll, what do you think of the thought experiment from Nick Bostrom that we’re living in a simulation? So I think– let me contextualize that a little bit more. I think people don’t actually take this thought experiment … I think it’s quite interesting. It’s not very useful, but it’s quite interesting from the perspective of AI, a lot of the learning that can be done usually happens in simulation- … from artificial examples. And so it’s a constructive question to ask how difficult is our real world to simulate? Which is kind of a dual part of if we’re living in a simulation and somebody built that simulation, how hard– if you were to try to do it yourself, how hard would it be?
Sean Carroll
So obviously we could be living in a simulation. If you just want the physical possibility, then I completely agree that it’s physically possible. I don’t think that we actually are. So take this one piece of data into consideration. You know, we live in a big universe.
So obviously we could be living in a simulation. If you just want the physical possibility, then I completely agree that it’s physically possible. I don’t think that we actually are. So take this one piece of data into consideration. You know, we live in a big universe.
Sean Carroll
Okay? There’s two trillion galaxies in our observable universe with two hundred billion stars in each galaxy, et cetera. It would seem to be a waste of resources to have a universe that big going on just to do a simulation. So in other words, I wanna be a good Bayesian. I wanna ask, under this hypothesis, what do I expect to see? So the first thing I would say is I wouldn’t expect to see a universe that was that big. Okay? The second thing is I wouldn’t expect the resolution of the universe to be as good as it is. So it’s always possible that if our superhuman simulators only have finite resources, that they don’t render the entire universe, right? That the part that is out there, the two trillion galaxies isn’t actually being simulated fully. Okay.
Okay? There’s two trillion galaxies in our observable universe with two hundred billion stars in each galaxy, et cetera. It would seem to be a waste of resources to have a universe that big going on just to do a simulation. So in other words, I wanna be a good Bayesian. I wanna ask, under this hypothesis, what do I expect to see? So the first thing I would say is I wouldn’t expect to see a universe that was that big. Okay? The second thing is I wouldn’t expect the resolution of the universe to be as good as it is. So it’s always possible that if our superhuman simulators only have finite resources, that they don’t render the entire universe, right? That the part that is out there, the two trillion galaxies isn’t actually being simulated fully. Okay.
Sean Carroll
But then the obvious extrapolation of that is that only I am being simulated fully, like the rest of you are just non-player characters, right? I’m the only thing that is real. The rest of you are just chatbots. Beyond this wall, I see the wall, but there is literally nothing on the other side of the wall. That is sort of the Bayesian prediction. That’s what it would be like to do an efficient simulation of me. So, like, none of that seems quite realistic. The– I don’t see… I hear the argument that it’s just possible and easy to simulate lots of things. I don’t see any evidence from what we know about our universe that we look like a simulated universe. Now, maybe you can say, “Well, we don’t know what it would look like,” but that’s just abandoning your Bayesian responsibilities.
But then the obvious extrapolation of that is that only I am being simulated fully, like the rest of you are just non-player characters, right? I’m the only thing that is real. The rest of you are just chatbots. Beyond this wall, I see the wall, but there is literally nothing on the other side of the wall. That is sort of the Bayesian prediction. That’s what it would be like to do an efficient simulation of me. So, like, none of that seems quite realistic. The– I don’t see… I hear the argument that it’s just possible and easy to simulate lots of things. I don’t see any evidence from what we know about our universe that we look like a simulated universe. Now, maybe you can say, “Well, we don’t know what it would look like,” but that’s just abandoning your Bayesian responsibilities.
Sean Carroll
Like, your job is to say, “Under this theory, here’s what you would expect to see.”
Like, your job is to say, “Under this theory, here’s what you would expect to see.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. So certainly if you think about simulation as a thing that’s like a video game where only a small subset is being rendered, but say the entire, all the laws of physics it- the entire closed system of the, quote-unquote, “universe”- … it had a creator.
Yeah. So certainly if you think about simulation as a thing that’s like a video game where only a small subset is being rendered, but say the entire, all the laws of physics it- the entire closed system of the, quote-unquote, “universe”- … it had a creator.
Sean Carroll
Yeah. It’s always possible.
Yeah. It’s always possible.
Lex Fridman
Right. So that’s not useful to think about when you’re thinking about physics the way Nick Bostrom phrases it. If, is it, if it’s possible to simulate a universe, eventually we’ll do it. You can use that, by the way, for a lot of things. But I guess the question is how hard is it to create a universe?
Right. So that’s not useful to think about when you’re thinking about physics the way Nick Bostrom phrases it. If, is it, if it’s possible to simulate a universe, eventually we’ll do it. You can use that, by the way, for a lot of things. But I guess the question is how hard is it to create a universe?
Sean Carroll
I wrote a little blog post about this, and maybe I’m missing something, but there’s an argument that says not only that it might be possible to simulate a universe, but probably if you imagine that you actually attribute consciousness and agency to the little things that we’re simulating, to our little artificial beings, there’s probably a lot more of them than there are ordinary organic beings in the universe, or there will be in the future, right? So there’s an argument that not only is being a simulation possible, it’s probable-
I wrote a little blog post about this, and maybe I’m missing something, but there’s an argument that says not only that it might be possible to simulate a universe, but probably if you imagine that you actually attribute consciousness and agency to the little things that we’re simulating, to our little artificial beings, there’s probably a lot more of them than there are ordinary organic beings in the universe, or there will be in the future, right? So there’s an argument that not only is being a simulation possible, it’s probable-
Sean Carroll
because in the space of all living consciousnesses, most of them are being simulated, right? Most of them are not at the top level. I think that argument must be wrong because it follows from that argument that, you know, if we’re simulated, but we can also simulate other things, well, but if we can simulate other things, they can simulate other things, right? If we give them enough power and resolution, and ultimately we’ll reach a bottom because the laws of physics in our universe have a bottom. We’re made of atoms and so forth. So there will be the cheapest possible simulations, and if you believe the original argument, you should conclude that we should be in the cheapest possible simulation ’cause that’s where most people are, but we don’t look like that.
because in the space of all living consciousnesses, most of them are being simulated, right? Most of them are not at the top level. I think that argument must be wrong because it follows from that argument that, you know, if we’re simulated, but we can also simulate other things, well, but if we can simulate other things, they can simulate other things, right? If we give them enough power and resolution, and ultimately we’ll reach a bottom because the laws of physics in our universe have a bottom. We’re made of atoms and so forth. So there will be the cheapest possible simulations, and if you believe the original argument, you should conclude that we should be in the cheapest possible simulation ’cause that’s where most people are, but we don’t look like that.
Sean Carroll
It doesn’t look at all like we’re at the edge of resolution, you know, we’re, that we’re 16-bit, you know, things. But it seems much easier to make much lower level things than we are. So, and also I question the whole approach to the anthropic principle that says we are typical observers in the universe. I think that that’s not actually… I think that there’s a lot of selection that we can do that we’re typical within things we already know, but not typical within all the universe.
It doesn’t look at all like we’re at the edge of resolution, you know, we’re, that we’re 16-bit, you know, things. But it seems much easier to make much lower level things than we are. So, and also I question the whole approach to the anthropic principle that says we are typical observers in the universe. I think that that’s not actually… I think that there’s a lot of selection that we can do that we’re typical within things we already know, but not typical within all the universe.
Intelligent life in the observable universe
Lex Fridman
So do you think there’s intelligent life, however you would like to define intelligent life, out there in the universe?
So do you think there’s intelligent life, however you would like to define intelligent life, out there in the universe?
Sean Carroll
My guess is that there is not intelligent life in the observable universe other than us, simply on the basis of the fact that the likely number of other intelligent species in the observable universe, there’s two likely numbers, zero or billions. And if there had been billions, you would have noticed already. To, for there to be literally like a small number, like, you know, Star Trek, there’s, you know, a dozen intelligent civilizations in our galaxy, but not a billion, that, that’s weird. That’s sort of bizarre to me. It’s easy for me to imagine that there are zero others because there’s just a big bottleneck to making multicellular life or technological life or whatever. It’s very hard for me to imagine that there’s a whole bunch out there that have somehow been hidden from us.
My guess is that there is not intelligent life in the observable universe other than us, simply on the basis of the fact that the likely number of other intelligent species in the observable universe, there’s two likely numbers, zero or billions. And if there had been billions, you would have noticed already. To, for there to be literally like a small number, like, you know, Star Trek, there’s, you know, a dozen intelligent civilizations in our galaxy, but not a billion, that, that’s weird. That’s sort of bizarre to me. It’s easy for me to imagine that there are zero others because there’s just a big bottleneck to making multicellular life or technological life or whatever. It’s very hard for me to imagine that there’s a whole bunch out there that have somehow been hidden from us.
Defining intelligent life
Lex Fridman
The question I’d like to ask is what would intelligent life look like? What I mean by that question and where it’s going is what if intelligent life is in some very big ways different than our, the one that has on- … is on Earth. That there’s all kinds of intelligent life that operates in different scales of both size and temporal.
The question I’d like to ask is what would intelligent life look like? What I mean by that question and where it’s going is what if intelligent life is in some very big ways different than our, the one that has on- … is on Earth. That there’s all kinds of intelligent life that operates in different scales of both size and temporal.
Sean Carroll
Right. That’s a great possibility because I think we should be humble about what intelligence is, what life is. We don’t even agree on what life is, much less- … what intelligent life is, right? So that’s an argument for humility saying there could be intelligent life of a very different character, right? Like you could imagine that dolphins are intelligent but never invent space travel ’cause they live in the ocean and they don’t have thumbs, right? So they never invent technology, they never invent smelting. Maybe the universe is full of intelligent species that just don’t make technology, right? That’s compatible with the data, I think. And I think maybe what you’re pointing at is even more out there versions of intelligence.
Right. That’s a great possibility because I think we should be humble about what intelligence is, what life is. We don’t even agree on what life is, much less- … what intelligent life is, right? So that’s an argument for humility saying there could be intelligent life of a very different character, right? Like you could imagine that dolphins are intelligent but never invent space travel ’cause they live in the ocean and they don’t have thumbs, right? So they never invent technology, they never invent smelting. Maybe the universe is full of intelligent species that just don’t make technology, right? That’s compatible with the data, I think. And I think maybe what you’re pointing at is even more out there versions of intelligence.
Sean Carroll
You know, intelligence in intermolecular clouds or on the surface of a neutron star or in between the galaxies in giant things where the equivalent of a heartbeat is a hundred million years. On the one hand, yes, we should be very open-minded about those things. On the other hand, we all, all of us share the same laws of physics. There might be something about the laws of physics, even though we don’t currently know exactly what that thing would be, that makes meters and years the right length and timescales for intelligent life. Maybe not-
You know, intelligence in intermolecular clouds or on the surface of a neutron star or in between the galaxies in giant things where the equivalent of a heartbeat is a hundred million years. On the one hand, yes, we should be very open-minded about those things. On the other hand, we all, all of us share the same laws of physics. There might be something about the laws of physics, even though we don’t currently know exactly what that thing would be, that makes meters and years the right length and timescales for intelligent life. Maybe not-
Sean Carroll
… but, you know, we’re made of atoms. Atoms have a certain size. We orbit stars. Stars have a certain lifetime. It’s not impossible to me that there’s a sweet spot for intelligent life that we find ourselves in. So I’m open-minded either way. I’m open-minded either being humble and there’s all sorts of different kinds of life, or no, there’s a reason we just don’t know it yet why life like ours is the kind of life that’s out there.
… but, you know, we’re made of atoms. Atoms have a certain size. We orbit stars. Stars have a certain lifetime. It’s not impossible to me that there’s a sweet spot for intelligent life that we find ourselves in. So I’m open-minded either way. I’m open-minded either being humble and there’s all sorts of different kinds of life, or no, there’s a reason we just don’t know it yet why life like ours is the kind of life that’s out there.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I’m of two minds too, but I often wonder if our brain is just designed to quite obviously operate and see the world on these timescales and we’re almost blind and the tools we’ve created for detecting things are blind- … to the kind of observation needed to see intelligent life at other scales.
Yeah, I’m of two minds too, but I often wonder if our brain is just designed to quite obviously operate and see the world on these timescales and we’re almost blind and the tools we’ve created for detecting things are blind- … to the kind of observation needed to see intelligent life at other scales.
Sean Carroll
Well, I’m totally open to that, but so here’s another argument I would make. You know, we have looked for intelligent life, but we’ve looked for it in the dumbest way we can- … by turning radio telescopes to the sky. Why in the world would a super advanced civilization randomly beam out radio signals wastefully in all directions into the universe? That just doesn’t make any sense, especially because in order to think that you would actually contact another civilization, you would have to do it forever. You would have to keep doing it for millions of years. That sounds like a waste of resources. If you thought that there were other solar systems with planets around them where maybe intelligent life didn’t yet exist, but might someday-
Well, I’m totally open to that, but so here’s another argument I would make. You know, we have looked for intelligent life, but we’ve looked for it in the dumbest way we can- … by turning radio telescopes to the sky. Why in the world would a super advanced civilization randomly beam out radio signals wastefully in all directions into the universe? That just doesn’t make any sense, especially because in order to think that you would actually contact another civilization, you would have to do it forever. You would have to keep doing it for millions of years. That sounds like a waste of resources. If you thought that there were other solar systems with planets around them where maybe intelligent life didn’t yet exist, but might someday-
Sean Carroll
… you wouldn’t try to talk to it with radio waves. You would send a spacecraft out there, and you would park it around there, and it would be like, from our point of view, it’d be like “2001,” where there’s, you know, a monolith.
… you wouldn’t try to talk to it with radio waves. You would send a spacecraft out there, and you would park it around there, and it would be like, from our point of view, it’d be like “2001,” where there’s, you know, a monolith.
Lex Fridman
Monolith.
Monolith.
Sean Carroll
So there could be an artifact. In fact, the other way works also, right? There could be artifacts in our solar system that have been put there by other technologically advanced civilizations, and that’s how we will eventually contact them. And we just haven’t explored the solar system well enough yet to find them. The reason why we don’t think about that is ’cause we’re young and impatient, right? Like, it would take more than my lifetime to actually send something to another star system and wait for it and then come back. So but if we start thinking on hundreds of thousands of years or million-year timescales, that’s clearly the right thing to do.
So there could be an artifact. In fact, the other way works also, right? There could be artifacts in our solar system that have been put there by other technologically advanced civilizations, and that’s how we will eventually contact them. And we just haven’t explored the solar system well enough yet to find them. The reason why we don’t think about that is ’cause we’re young and impatient, right? Like, it would take more than my lifetime to actually send something to another star system and wait for it and then come back. So but if we start thinking on hundreds of thousands of years or million-year timescales, that’s clearly the right thing to do.
SpaceX and space exploration
Lex Fridman
Are you excited by the thing that Elon Musk is doing with SpaceX in general with the idea of space exploration, even though your or your species is young and impatient?
Are you excited by the thing that Elon Musk is doing with SpaceX in general with the idea of space exploration, even though your or your species is young and impatient?
Sean Carroll
Yeah. No, I do think that space travel is crucially important long term, even to other star systems. And I think that many people overestimate the difficulty because they say, “Look, if you travel one percent the speed of light to another star system, we’ll be dead before you get there,” right? And I think that it’s much easier, and therefore, when they write their science fiction stories, they imagine we can go faster than the speed of light, ’cause otherwise they’re too impatient, right? We’re not gonna go faster than the speed of light, but we could easily imagine that the human lifespan gets extended to thousands of years.
Yeah. No, I do think that space travel is crucially important long term, even to other star systems. And I think that many people overestimate the difficulty because they say, “Look, if you travel one percent the speed of light to another star system, we’ll be dead before you get there,” right? And I think that it’s much easier, and therefore, when they write their science fiction stories, they imagine we can go faster than the speed of light, ’cause otherwise they’re too impatient, right? We’re not gonna go faster than the speed of light, but we could easily imagine that the human lifespan gets extended to thousands of years.
Sean Carroll
And once you do that, then the stars are much closer effectively, right? I mean, what’s a hundred-year trip, right? So I think that that’s gonna be the future, the far future, not my lifetime, once again, but baby steps and-
And once you do that, then the stars are much closer effectively, right? I mean, what’s a hundred-year trip, right? So I think that that’s gonna be the future, the far future, not my lifetime, once again, but baby steps and-
Lex Fridman
Unless your lifetime gets extended.
Unless your lifetime gets extended.
Sean Carroll
Well, it’s in a race against time, right? A friend of mine who actually thinks about these things said, “You know you and I are gonna die, but I don’t know about our grandchildren.” That’s, I don’t know, predicting the future is hard, but that’s at least a plausible scenario. And so, yeah, no, I think that as we discussed earlier, there are threats to the Earth, known and unknown, right? Having spread humanity and biology elsewhere is a really important long-term goal.
Well, it’s in a race against time, right? A friend of mine who actually thinks about these things said, “You know you and I are gonna die, but I don’t know about our grandchildren.” That’s, I don’t know, predicting the future is hard, but that’s at least a plausible scenario. And so, yeah, no, I think that as we discussed earlier, there are threats to the Earth, known and unknown, right? Having spread humanity and biology elsewhere is a really important long-term goal.
Origin of life
Lex Fridman
What kind of questions can science not currently answer but might soon? When you– when you think about the problems and the mysteries before us- … that may be within reach of science.
What kind of questions can science not currently answer but might soon? When you– when you think about the problems and the mysteries before us- … that may be within reach of science.
Sean Carroll
I think an obvious one is the origin of life. We don’t know how that happened. There’s a difficulty in knowing how it happened historically, actually, you know, literally on Earth, but starting life from non-life is something I kinda think we’re close to, right? We’re really-
I think an obvious one is the origin of life. We don’t know how that happened. There’s a difficulty in knowing how it happened historically, actually, you know, literally on Earth, but starting life from non-life is something I kinda think we’re close to, right? We’re really-
Lex Fridman
You really think so? How– like, how difficult is it to start life?
You really think so? How– like, how difficult is it to start life?
Sean Carroll
I do. I do. Well, I’ve talked to people, including on the podcast, about this. You know, life requires three things, life as we know it. So there’s a difference between life, which who knows what it is, and life as we know it, which we can talk about with some intelligence. So life as we know it requires compartmentalization. You need, like, a little membrane around your cell. Metabolism, you take in food and eat it and let that make you do things. And then replication, okay? So you need to have some information about who you are that you pass down to future generations. In the lab, compartmentalization seems pretty easy, not hard to make lipid bilayers that come into little cellular walls pretty easily. Metabolism and replication are hard, but replication we’re close to.
I do. I do. Well, I’ve talked to people, including on the podcast, about this. You know, life requires three things, life as we know it. So there’s a difference between life, which who knows what it is, and life as we know it, which we can talk about with some intelligence. So life as we know it requires compartmentalization. You need, like, a little membrane around your cell. Metabolism, you take in food and eat it and let that make you do things. And then replication, okay? So you need to have some information about who you are that you pass down to future generations. In the lab, compartmentalization seems pretty easy, not hard to make lipid bilayers that come into little cellular walls pretty easily. Metabolism and replication are hard, but replication we’re close to.
Sean Carroll
People have made RNA-like molecules in the lab that I think the state-of-the-art is they’re not able to make one molecule that reproduces itself, but they’re able to make two molecules that reproduce each other. So that’s okay. That’s pretty close.
People have made RNA-like molecules in the lab that I think the state-of-the-art is they’re not able to make one molecule that reproduces itself, but they’re able to make two molecules that reproduce each other. So that’s okay. That’s pretty close.
Sean Carroll
Metabolism is harder, believe it or not, even though it’s sort of the most obvious thing, but you want some sort of controlled metabolism, and the actual cellular machinery in our bodies is quite complicated. It’s hard to see it just popping into existence all by itself. It probably took a while. But we’re making progress. And in fact, I don’t think we’re spending nearly enough money on it. If I were the NSF, I would flood this area with money ’cause it would change our view of the world if we could actually make life in the lab and understand how it was made originally here on Earth.
Metabolism is harder, believe it or not, even though it’s sort of the most obvious thing, but you want some sort of controlled metabolism, and the actual cellular machinery in our bodies is quite complicated. It’s hard to see it just popping into existence all by itself. It probably took a while. But we’re making progress. And in fact, I don’t think we’re spending nearly enough money on it. If I were the NSF, I would flood this area with money ’cause it would change our view of the world if we could actually make life in the lab and understand how it was made originally here on Earth.
Lex Fridman
And I’m sure it would have some ripple effects that help cure disease and so on. I mean just that understanding-
And I’m sure it would have some ripple effects that help cure disease and so on. I mean just that understanding-
Sean Carroll
Well, that’s right. So synthetic biology is a wonderful big frontier where we’re making cells. Right now, the best way to do that is to borrow heavily from existing biology, right? Craig Venter several years ago created an artificial cell, but all he did was– not all he did, it was a tremendous accomplishment, but all he did was take out the DNA from a cell and put in entirely new DNA and let it boot up and go.
Well, that’s right. So synthetic biology is a wonderful big frontier where we’re making cells. Right now, the best way to do that is to borrow heavily from existing biology, right? Craig Venter several years ago created an artificial cell, but all he did was– not all he did, it was a tremendous accomplishment, but all he did was take out the DNA from a cell and put in entirely new DNA and let it boot up and go.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. What about the leap to creating intelligent life on Earth? However, again, we define intelligence, of course, but let’s just even say Homo sapiens, the modern, the modern intelligence in our human brain. Do you have a sense of what’s involved in that leap and how big of a leap that is?
Mm-hmm. What about the leap to creating intelligent life on Earth? However, again, we define intelligence, of course, but let’s just even say Homo sapiens, the modern, the modern intelligence in our human brain. Do you have a sense of what’s involved in that leap and how big of a leap that is?
Sean Carroll
So AI would count in this, or you really want life? You want really an organism in some sense.
So AI would count in this, or you really want life? You want really an organism in some sense.
Lex Fridman
Uh, AI would count, I think. If, if– Yeah, of course. Of course, AI would count, but-
Uh, AI would count, I think. If, if– Yeah, of course. Of course, AI would count, but-
Sean Carroll
Well, let’s say artificial consciousness, right? So I do not think we are on the threshold of creating artificial consciousness. I think it’s possible. I’m not, again, very educated about how close we are, but my impression is not that we’re really close because we understand how little we understand of consciousness and what it is. So if we don’t have any idea what it is, it’s hard to imagine we’re on the threshold of making it… ourselves but it’s doable. It’s possible. I don’t see any obstacles in principle, so yeah, I would hold out some interest in that happening eventually.
Well, let’s say artificial consciousness, right? So I do not think we are on the threshold of creating artificial consciousness. I think it’s possible. I’m not, again, very educated about how close we are, but my impression is not that we’re really close because we understand how little we understand of consciousness and what it is. So if we don’t have any idea what it is, it’s hard to imagine we’re on the threshold of making it… ourselves but it’s doable. It’s possible. I don’t see any obstacles in principle, so yeah, I would hold out some interest in that happening eventually.
Lex Fridman
I think in general, consciousness I think we’ll be just surprised how easy consciousness is once we create intelligence. I think consciousness is a thing that’s just something we all fake.
I think in general, consciousness I think we’ll be just surprised how easy consciousness is once we create intelligence. I think consciousness is a thing that’s just something we all fake.
Sean Carroll
Well, good. No, actually, I like this idea that in fact consciousness is way less mysterious than we think- … because we’re all at every time, at every moment less conscious than we think we are, right? We can fool things, and I think that plus the idea that you not only have artificial intelligent systems, but you put them in a body, right? Give them a robot body. That will help the faking a lot.
Well, good. No, actually, I like this idea that in fact consciousness is way less mysterious than we think- … because we’re all at every time, at every moment less conscious than we think we are, right? We can fool things, and I think that plus the idea that you not only have artificial intelligent systems, but you put them in a body, right? Give them a robot body. That will help the faking a lot.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I think creating consciousness in artificial consciousness is as simple as asking a Roomba to say, “I’m conscious”… and refusing to be talked out of it.
Yeah, I think creating consciousness in artificial consciousness is as simple as asking a Roomba to say, “I’m conscious”… and refusing to be talked out of it.
Sean Carroll
Could be. It could be.
Could be. It could be.
Lex Fridman
And I mean that – I’m almost being silly, but that’s what we do. … That’s what we do with each other. This, the kind of consciousness is also a social construct, and a lot of our ideas of intelligence is a social construct, and so reaching that bar involves something that’s beyond, that doesn’t necessarily involve the fundamental understanding of how you go from electrons to neurons to cognition.
And I mean that – I’m almost being silly, but that’s what we do. … That’s what we do with each other. This, the kind of consciousness is also a social construct, and a lot of our ideas of intelligence is a social construct, and so reaching that bar involves something that’s beyond, that doesn’t necessarily involve the fundamental understanding of how you go from electrons to neurons to cognition.
Sean Carroll
No, actually, I think that is a extremely good point, and in fact, what it suggests is, you know, so yeah, you referred to Kate, Kate Darling, who I had on the podcast – … and who does these experiments with very simple robots, but they look like animals, and they can look like they’re experiencing pain, and we human beings react very negatively to these little robots looking like they’re experiencing pain. And what you wanna say is, “Yeah, but they’re just robots. It’s not really pain,” right? It’s just some electrons going around. But then you realize, you know, you and I are just electrons going around, and that’s what pain is also.
No, actually, I think that is a extremely good point, and in fact, what it suggests is, you know, so yeah, you referred to Kate, Kate Darling, who I had on the podcast – … and who does these experiments with very simple robots, but they look like animals, and they can look like they’re experiencing pain, and we human beings react very negatively to these little robots looking like they’re experiencing pain. And what you wanna say is, “Yeah, but they’re just robots. It’s not really pain,” right? It’s just some electrons going around. But then you realize, you know, you and I are just electrons going around, and that’s what pain is also.
Sean Carroll
And so what I would have an easy time imagining is that there is a spectrum between these simple little robots that Kate works with and a human being, where there are things that sort of by some strict definition, Turing test level thing, are not conscious, but nevertheless walk and talk like they’re conscious, and it could be that the future is… I mean, Siri is close, right? And so it might be the future has a lot more agents like that, and in fact, rather than someday going, “Aha, we have consciousness,” we’ll just creep up on it with more and more accurate reflections of what we expect.
And so what I would have an easy time imagining is that there is a spectrum between these simple little robots that Kate works with and a human being, where there are things that sort of by some strict definition, Turing test level thing, are not conscious, but nevertheless walk and talk like they’re conscious, and it could be that the future is… I mean, Siri is close, right? And so it might be the future has a lot more agents like that, and in fact, rather than someday going, “Aha, we have consciousness,” we’ll just creep up on it with more and more accurate reflections of what we expect.
Lex Fridman
And in the future, maybe the present, for example, we haven’t met before, and you’re may- basically assuming that I’m human as it’s-
And in the future, maybe the present, for example, we haven’t met before, and you’re may- basically assuming that I’m human as it’s-
Sean Carroll
I give it a high probability.
I give it a high probability.
Lex Fridman
At this time because yeah, but in the future, there might be question marks around that, right?
At this time because yeah, but in the future, there might be question marks around that, right?
Sean Carroll
Yeah, no, absolutely. Certainly videos are almost to the point where you shouldn’t trust them already. Photos you can’t trust, right? Videos is easier to trust, but we’re getting worse at, you know – We’re getting better at faking them, right?
Yeah, no, absolutely. Certainly videos are almost to the point where you shouldn’t trust them already. Photos you can’t trust, right? Videos is easier to trust, but we’re getting worse at, you know – We’re getting better at faking them, right?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, we’re getting better at faking them.
Yeah, we’re getting better at faking them.
Sean Carroll
Yeah, so physical embodied people, what’s so hard about faking that?
Yeah, so physical embodied people, what’s so hard about faking that?
Lex Fridman
So-
So-
Sean Carroll
This is very depressing, this conversation we’re having right now. So I mean-
This is very depressing, this conversation we’re having right now. So I mean-
Lex Fridman
No, to me it’s exciting.
No, to me it’s exciting.
Sean Carroll
To me – You’re doing it… so it’s exciting to you, but it’s a sobering thought. We’re very bad, right, at imagining what the next fifty years are gonna be like when we’re in the middle of a phase transition as we are right now.
To me – You’re doing it… so it’s exciting to you, but it’s a sobering thought. We’re very bad, right, at imagining what the next fifty years are gonna be like when we’re in the middle of a phase transition as we are right now.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, and in general, I’m not blind to all the threats. I am excited by the power of technology to solve, to protect us against the threats- … as they evolve. I’m not as much as Steven Pinker optimistic about the world, but in everything I’ve seen, all of the brilliant people in the world that I’ve met are good people. So the army of the good, in terms of the development of technology, is large.
Yeah, and in general, I’m not blind to all the threats. I am excited by the power of technology to solve, to protect us against the threats- … as they evolve. I’m not as much as Steven Pinker optimistic about the world, but in everything I’ve seen, all of the brilliant people in the world that I’ve met are good people. So the army of the good, in terms of the development of technology, is large.
Sean Carroll
Okay. You’re way more optimistic than I am. I think that goodness and badness are equally distributed among intelligent and unintelligent people. I don’t see much of a correlation there.
Okay. You’re way more optimistic than I am. I think that goodness and badness are equally distributed among intelligent and unintelligent people. I don’t see much of a correlation there.
Lex Fridman
Interesting. Neither of us have proof.
Interesting. Neither of us have proof.
Sean Carroll
Yeah, exactly, as you… Again, opinions are free, right?
Yeah, exactly, as you… Again, opinions are free, right?
Lex Fridman
Nor definitions of good and evil. We come-
Nor definitions of good and evil. We come-
Sean Carroll
Also
Also
Lex Fridman
… without definitions or without data- … Opinions. So what kind of questions can science not currently answer or may never be able to answer in your view?
… without definitions or without data- … Opinions. So what kind of questions can science not currently answer or may never be able to answer in your view?
Sean Carroll
Well, the obvious one is what is good and bad? You know, what is right and wrong? I think that there are questions that, you know, science tells us what happens, what the world is and what it does. It doesn’t say what the world should do or what we should do ’cause we’re part of the world. But we are part of the world, and we have the ability to feel like something’s right, something’s wrong, and to make a very long story very short, I think that the idea of moral philosophy is systematizing our intuitions of what is right and what is wrong. And science might be able to predict ahead of time what we will do, but it won’t ever be able to judge whether we should have done it or not.
Well, the obvious one is what is good and bad? You know, what is right and wrong? I think that there are questions that, you know, science tells us what happens, what the world is and what it does. It doesn’t say what the world should do or what we should do ’cause we’re part of the world. But we are part of the world, and we have the ability to feel like something’s right, something’s wrong, and to make a very long story very short, I think that the idea of moral philosophy is systematizing our intuitions of what is right and what is wrong. And science might be able to predict ahead of time what we will do, but it won’t ever be able to judge whether we should have done it or not.
Interdisciplinary science and conversation
Lex Fridman
So, you know, you’re kind of unique in terms of scientists. Listen, it doesn’t have to do with podcasts, but even just reaching out, I think you referred to as sort of doing interdisciplinary science. So you reach out and talk to people that are outside of your discipline, which I always hope that’s what science was for. In fact, I was a little disillusioned when I realized that academia is very siloed.
So, you know, you’re kind of unique in terms of scientists. Listen, it doesn’t have to do with podcasts, but even just reaching out, I think you referred to as sort of doing interdisciplinary science. So you reach out and talk to people that are outside of your discipline, which I always hope that’s what science was for. In fact, I was a little disillusioned when I realized that academia is very siloed.
Lex Fridman
And so the question is: How, well, at your own level, how do you prepare for these conversations? How do you think about these conversations? How do you open your mind enough to have these conversations? And then maybe a little bit broader, how can you advise other scientists to have these kinds of conversations? Not at the podcast. The fact that you’re doing a podcast is awesome, other people get to hear them.
And so the question is: How, well, at your own level, how do you prepare for these conversations? How do you think about these conversations? How do you open your mind enough to have these conversations? And then maybe a little bit broader, how can you advise other scientists to have these kinds of conversations? Not at the podcast. The fact that you’re doing a podcast is awesome, other people get to hear them.
Sean Carroll
Oh, no, I mean, yeah.
Oh, no, I mean, yeah.
Lex Fridman
But it’s also good to have it without mics- … in general.
But it’s also good to have it without mics- … in general.
Sean Carroll
It’s a good question, but a tough one to answer. I think about, you know, a guy I know who’s a personal trainer, and he was asked on a podcast, “How do we, you know, psych ourselves up to do a workout? How do we make that discipline to go and work out?” And he’s like, “Why are you asking me? Like, I can’t stop working out.”
It’s a good question, but a tough one to answer. I think about, you know, a guy I know who’s a personal trainer, and he was asked on a podcast, “How do we, you know, psych ourselves up to do a workout? How do we make that discipline to go and work out?” And he’s like, “Why are you asking me? Like, I can’t stop working out.”
Sean Carroll
“Like, I don’t need to psych myself up.” So, and likewise, you know, you ask me, like, how do you get to, like, have interdisciplinary conversations and all sorts of different things with all sorts of different people? I’m like, that’s, that’s what makes me go, right? Like, that’s– I, I couldn’t stop doing that. I did that long before any of them were recorded. In fact, a lot of the motivation for starting recording it was making sure I would read all these books that I had purchased, right? Like I- … had all these books I wanted to read. Not enough time to read them, and now if I have the motivation, ’cause I’m gonna, you know, interview Pat Churchland, I’m gonna finally read her book, you know?
“Like, I don’t need to psych myself up.” So, and likewise, you know, you ask me, like, how do you get to, like, have interdisciplinary conversations and all sorts of different things with all sorts of different people? I’m like, that’s, that’s what makes me go, right? Like, that’s– I, I couldn’t stop doing that. I did that long before any of them were recorded. In fact, a lot of the motivation for starting recording it was making sure I would read all these books that I had purchased, right? Like I- … had all these books I wanted to read. Not enough time to read them, and now if I have the motivation, ’cause I’m gonna, you know, interview Pat Churchland, I’m gonna finally read her book, you know?
Sean Carroll
And it’s absolutely true that academia is extraordinarily siloed, right? We don’t talk to people. We rarely do, and in fact, when we do, it’s punished, you know? Like- … the people who do it successfully generally first became very successful within their little silo-
And it’s absolutely true that academia is extraordinarily siloed, right? We don’t talk to people. We rarely do, and in fact, when we do, it’s punished, you know? Like- … the people who do it successfully generally first became very successful within their little silo-
Sean Carroll
of discipline, and only then did they start expanding out. If you’re a young person, you know, I have graduate students, and I try to be very, very candid with them about this, that it’s– You know, most graduate students are to not become faculty members, right? It’s a tough road. And so live the life you wanna live, but do it with your eyes open about what it does to your job chances. And the more broad you are and the less time you spend hyper-specializing in your field, the lower your job chances are. That’s just an academic reality. It’s terrible, and I don’t like it-
of discipline, and only then did they start expanding out. If you’re a young person, you know, I have graduate students, and I try to be very, very candid with them about this, that it’s– You know, most graduate students are to not become faculty members, right? It’s a tough road. And so live the life you wanna live, but do it with your eyes open about what it does to your job chances. And the more broad you are and the less time you spend hyper-specializing in your field, the lower your job chances are. That’s just an academic reality. It’s terrible, and I don’t like it-
Sean Carroll
… but it’s a reality. And for some people, that’s fine. Like, there’s plenty of people who are wonderful scientists who have zero interest in branching out and talking to things, to anyone outside their field. But it, it is disillusioning to me. Some of the, you know, romantic notion I had of the intellectual academic life is belied by the reality of it. The idea that we should reach out beyond our discipline, and that is a positive good, is just so rare in universities that it may as well not exist at all.
… but it’s a reality. And for some people, that’s fine. Like, there’s plenty of people who are wonderful scientists who have zero interest in branching out and talking to things, to anyone outside their field. But it, it is disillusioning to me. Some of the, you know, romantic notion I had of the intellectual academic life is belied by the reality of it. The idea that we should reach out beyond our discipline, and that is a positive good, is just so rare in universities that it may as well not exist at all.
Lex Fridman
But that said, even though you’re saying you’re doing it like the personal trainer because you just can’t help it, you’re also an inspiration to others. Like, I can speak for myself. You know, I also have a career I’m thinking about, right? And without your podcast, I may have not have been doing this at all, right? So it makes me realize that these kinds of conversations is kind of what science is about in many ways. Like, the reason we write papers, this exchange of ideas is much harder to do interdisciplinary papers, I would say.
But that said, even though you’re saying you’re doing it like the personal trainer because you just can’t help it, you’re also an inspiration to others. Like, I can speak for myself. You know, I also have a career I’m thinking about, right? And without your podcast, I may have not have been doing this at all, right? So it makes me realize that these kinds of conversations is kind of what science is about in many ways. Like, the reason we write papers, this exchange of ideas is much harder to do interdisciplinary papers, I would say.
Sean Carroll
Yeah. That’s correct.
Yeah. That’s correct.
Lex Fridman
And conversations are easier, so conversations are a beginning. And in the field of AI, that’s inter– it’s obvious that we should think outside of pure computer vision competitions and particular data sets. We should think about the broader impact of how this can be, you know, reaching out to physics, to psychology, to neuroscience, and having these conversations. So you’re an inspiration, and so-
And conversations are easier, so conversations are a beginning. And in the field of AI, that’s inter– it’s obvious that we should think outside of pure computer vision competitions and particular data sets. We should think about the broader impact of how this can be, you know, reaching out to physics, to psychology, to neuroscience, and having these conversations. So you’re an inspiration, and so-
Sean Carroll
Well, thank you very much.
Well, thank you very much.
Lex Fridman
Never-
Never-
Sean Carroll
That’s very sweet, but-
That’s very sweet, but-
Lex Fridman
Never know how the world changes. I mean, the fact that this stuff is out there, and I’ve– a huge number of people come up to me, grad students really loving the podcast, inspired by it, and they will probably have that– There’ll be ripple effects when they become faculty and so on, so on. We can end on a balance between pessimism … and optimism. And Sean, thank you so much for talking today. It was awesome.
Never know how the world changes. I mean, the fact that this stuff is out there, and I’ve– a huge number of people come up to me, grad students really loving the podcast, inspired by it, and they will probably have that– There’ll be ripple effects when they become faculty and so on, so on. We can end on a balance between pessimism … and optimism. And Sean, thank you so much for talking today. It was awesome.
Sean Carroll
No, Lex, thank you very much for this conversation. It was great.
No, Lex, thank you very much for this conversation. It was great.
Transcript for Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #14 with Kyle Vogt.
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
that take you directly to that point in
the main video. Please note that the transcript is
human generated, and may have errors.
Here are some useful links:
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
that take you directly to that point in
the main video. Please note that the transcript is
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Table of Contents
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Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
- 0:00 – Introduction
- 5:24 – First Code and Self-Driving Dream
- 12:18 – MIT and DARPA Grand Challenge
- 16:46 – Founding Justin.tv
- 22:55 – Founding Cruise Automation
- 29:49 – Cruise and General Motors
- 35:24 – Self-driving car economics
- 48:00 – Startup advice from a founder
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Kyle Vogt. He’s the president and the CTO of Cruise Automation, leading an effort to solve one of the biggest robotics challenges of our time, vehicle automation. He’s a co-founder of two successful companies, Twitch and Cruise, that have each sold for a billion dollars, and he’s a great example of the innovative spirit that flourishes in Silicon Valley, and now is facing an interesting and exciting challenge of matching that spirit with the mass production and the safety-centric culture of a major automaker like General Motors. This conversation is part of the MIT Artificial General Intelligence series and the Artificial Intelligence podcast.
The following is a conversation with Kyle Vogt. He’s the president and the CTO of Cruise Automation, leading an effort to solve one of the biggest robotics challenges of our time, vehicle automation. He’s a co-founder of two successful companies, Twitch and Cruise, that have each sold for a billion dollars, and he’s a great example of the innovative spirit that flourishes in Silicon Valley, and now is facing an interesting and exciting challenge of matching that spirit with the mass production and the safety-centric culture of a major automaker like General Motors. This conversation is part of the MIT Artificial General Intelligence series and the Artificial Intelligence podcast.
Lex Fridman
If you enjoy it, please subscribe on YouTube, iTunes, or simply connect with me on Twitter, @lexfridman, spelled F-R-I-D. And now, here’s my conversation with Kyle Vogt. You grew up in Kansas, right?
If you enjoy it, please subscribe on YouTube, iTunes, or simply connect with me on Twitter, @lexfridman, spelled F-R-I-D. And now, here’s my conversation with Kyle Vogt. You grew up in Kansas, right?
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, and I just saw that picture you had hidden over there.
Yeah, and I just saw that picture you had hidden over there.
Lex Fridman
Oh, boy.
Oh, boy.
Kyle Vogt
So I’m a little bit worried about that now.
So I’m a little bit worried about that now.
Lex Fridman
Nervous. So in high school in Kansas City, you joined Shawnee Mission North High School robotics team. Now, that wasn’t your high school.
Nervous. So in high school in Kansas City, you joined Shawnee Mission North High School robotics team. Now, that wasn’t your high school.
Kyle Vogt
That’s right. That was the only high school in the area that had a teacher who was willing to sponsor a FIRST robotics team.
That’s right. That was the only high school in the area that had a teacher who was willing to sponsor a FIRST robotics team.
Lex Fridman
I was gonna troll you a little bit, jog your memory- … a little bit about that kid.
I was gonna troll you a little bit, jog your memory- … a little bit about that kid.
Kyle Vogt
Yep. I was trying to look super cool and intense-
Yep. I was trying to look super cool and intense-
Lex Fridman
You did.
You did.
Kyle Vogt
… ’cause, you know, this was BattleBots, this is serious business. So we’re standing there with a welded steel frame and looking tough.
… ’cause, you know, this was BattleBots, this is serious business. So we’re standing there with a welded steel frame and looking tough.
Lex Fridman
So go back there. What is it that drew you to robotics?
So go back there. What is it that drew you to robotics?
Kyle Vogt
Well, I think I’ve been trying to figure this out for a while, but I’ve always liked building things with Legos, and when I was really, really young, I wanted the Legos that had motors and other things. And then, you know, Lego Mindstorms came out, and for the first time you could program Lego contraptions, and I think things just sort of snowballed from that. But I remember seeing, you know, the BattleBots TV show on Comedy Central and thinking, “That is the coolest thing in the world. I wanna be a part of that.” And not knowing a whole lot about how to build these 200-pound fighting robots.
Well, I think I’ve been trying to figure this out for a while, but I’ve always liked building things with Legos, and when I was really, really young, I wanted the Legos that had motors and other things. And then, you know, Lego Mindstorms came out, and for the first time you could program Lego contraptions, and I think things just sort of snowballed from that. But I remember seeing, you know, the BattleBots TV show on Comedy Central and thinking, “That is the coolest thing in the world. I wanna be a part of that.” And not knowing a whole lot about how to build these 200-pound fighting robots.
Kyle Vogt
So I sort of obsessively pored over the internet forums where all the creators for BattleBots would sort of hang out and talk about, you know, document their build progress and everything. And I think I read, I must have read, like, you know, tens of thousands of forum posts from basically everything that was out there on what these people were doing. And eventually, like, sort of triangulated how to put some of these things together and ended up doing BattleBots, which was, you know, I was like 13 or 14, which was pretty awesome.
So I sort of obsessively pored over the internet forums where all the creators for BattleBots would sort of hang out and talk about, you know, document their build progress and everything. And I think I read, I must have read, like, you know, tens of thousands of forum posts from basically everything that was out there on what these people were doing. And eventually, like, sort of triangulated how to put some of these things together and ended up doing BattleBots, which was, you know, I was like 13 or 14, which was pretty awesome.
Lex Fridman
I’m not sure if the show’s still running, but, so BattleBots is… so there’s not an artificial intelligence component. It’s remotely controlled, and it’s almost like a mechanical engineering challenge of … building things that can’t be broken.
I’m not sure if the show’s still running, but, so BattleBots is… so there’s not an artificial intelligence component. It’s remotely controlled, and it’s almost like a mechanical engineering challenge of … building things that can’t be broken.
Kyle Vogt
They’re radio controlled, so- … And I think that they allowed some limited form of autonomy, but, you know, in a two-minute match, you’re, and the way these things ran, you’re really doing yourself a disservice by trying to automate it versus just, you know, do the practical thing, which is drive it yourself.
They’re radio controlled, so- … And I think that they allowed some limited form of autonomy, but, you know, in a two-minute match, you’re, and the way these things ran, you’re really doing yourself a disservice by trying to automate it versus just, you know, do the practical thing, which is drive it yourself.
Lex Fridman
And there’s an entertainment aspect. Just going on YouTube, there’s like, some of them wield an ax, some of them… I mean, there’s that fun. So what drew you to that aspect? Was it the mechanical engineering? Was it the dream to create, like, a Frankenstein sentient being? Or was it just, like, the Lego, you like tinkering with stuff?
And there’s an entertainment aspect. Just going on YouTube, there’s like, some of them wield an ax, some of them… I mean, there’s that fun. So what drew you to that aspect? Was it the mechanical engineering? Was it the dream to create, like, a Frankenstein sentient being? Or was it just, like, the Lego, you like tinkering with stuff?
Kyle Vogt
I mean, that was just building something. I think the idea of, you know, this radio-controlled machine that can do various things if it has, like, a weapon or something was pretty interesting. I agree, it doesn’t have the same appeal as, you know, autonomous robots, which I, which I, you know, sort of gravitated towards later on. But it was definitely an engineering challenge because everything you did in that competition was pushing components to their limits. So we would buy, like, these $40 DC motors that came out of a winch, like, on the front of a pickup truck or something, and we’d power the car with those, and we’d run ’em at, like, double or triple their rated voltage.
I mean, that was just building something. I think the idea of, you know, this radio-controlled machine that can do various things if it has, like, a weapon or something was pretty interesting. I agree, it doesn’t have the same appeal as, you know, autonomous robots, which I, which I, you know, sort of gravitated towards later on. But it was definitely an engineering challenge because everything you did in that competition was pushing components to their limits. So we would buy, like, these $40 DC motors that came out of a winch, like, on the front of a pickup truck or something, and we’d power the car with those, and we’d run ’em at, like, double or triple their rated voltage.
Kyle Vogt
So they immediately start overheating, but for that two-minute match, you can get, you know, a significant increase in the power output of those motors before they burn out. And so you’re doing the same thing for your battery packs, all the materials in the system, and I think there is something intrinsically interesting about just seeing, like, where things break.
So they immediately start overheating, but for that two-minute match, you can get, you know, a significant increase in the power output of those motors before they burn out. And so you’re doing the same thing for your battery packs, all the materials in the system, and I think there is something intrinsically interesting about just seeing, like, where things break.
Lex Fridman
And did you offline see where they break? Did you take it to the testing point? Like, how did you know two minutes? Or was it a reckless, “Let’s just go with it and see”?
And did you offline see where they break? Did you take it to the testing point? Like, how did you know two minutes? Or was it a reckless, “Let’s just go with it and see”?
Kyle Vogt
We weren’t very good at BattleBots. We lost all of our matches the first round.
We weren’t very good at BattleBots. We lost all of our matches the first round.
Lex Fridman
What did yours look like?
What did yours look like?
Kyle Vogt
The one I built first, both of them were these wedge-shaped robots, ’cause a wedge, even though it’s sort of boring to look at, is extremely effective. You drive towards another robot, and the front edge of it gets under ’em, and then they sort of flip over, kinda like a doorstopper. And the first one had a pneumatic polished stainless steel spike on the front that would shoot out about eight inches.
The one I built first, both of them were these wedge-shaped robots, ’cause a wedge, even though it’s sort of boring to look at, is extremely effective. You drive towards another robot, and the front edge of it gets under ’em, and then they sort of flip over, kinda like a doorstopper. And the first one had a pneumatic polished stainless steel spike on the front that would shoot out about eight inches.
Lex Fridman
The purpose of which is what?
The purpose of which is what?
Kyle Vogt
Pretty, pretty ineffective, actually, but it looked cool. And, uh – Lex Fridman (00:04:59):
Was it to help with the lift? So it – Kyle Vogt (00:05:01):
No, it was just to try to poke holes in the other robot. And then the second time I did it, which was the following, I think maybe 18 months later, we had, well, a titanium ax with a hardened steel tip on it that was powered by a hydraulic cylinder, which we were activating with liquid CO2, which had its own set of problems.
Pretty, pretty ineffective, actually, but it looked cool. And, uh – Lex Fridman (00:04:59):
Was it to help with the lift? So it – Kyle Vogt (00:05:01):
No, it was just to try to poke holes in the other robot. And then the second time I did it, which was the following, I think maybe 18 months later, we had, well, a titanium ax with a hardened steel tip on it that was powered by a hydraulic cylinder, which we were activating with liquid CO2, which had its own set of problems.
First Code and Self-Driving Dream
Lex Fridman
So great. So that’s kind of on the hardware side. I mean at a certain point, there must have been born a fascination on the software side. So what was the first piece of code you’ve written?
So great. So that’s kind of on the hardware side. I mean at a certain point, there must have been born a fascination on the software side. So what was the first piece of code you’ve written?
Kyle Vogt
Oh, man. So-
Oh, man. So-
Lex Fridman
Get to, go back there, see what language was it? What was it? Was it Emacs, Vim? Was it a more respectable modern- … IDE? Do you remember any of this?
Get to, go back there, see what language was it? What was it? Was it Emacs, Vim? Was it a more respectable modern- … IDE? Do you remember any of this?
Kyle Vogt
Yeah. Well, I remember I think maybe when I was in third or fourth grade the school I was at, elementary school, had a bunch of Apple II computers and we’d play games on those. And I remember every once in a while something would crash or it wouldn’t start up correctly, and it would dump you out to what I later learned was, like, sort of a command prompt. And my teacher would come over and type, I actually remember this to this day for some reason, like, PR, number six, or PR pound six, which is peripheral six, which is the disk drive, which would fire up the disk and load the program. And I just remember thinking, “Wow, she’s like a hacker.” Like-
Yeah. Well, I remember I think maybe when I was in third or fourth grade the school I was at, elementary school, had a bunch of Apple II computers and we’d play games on those. And I remember every once in a while something would crash or it wouldn’t start up correctly, and it would dump you out to what I later learned was, like, sort of a command prompt. And my teacher would come over and type, I actually remember this to this day for some reason, like, PR, number six, or PR pound six, which is peripheral six, which is the disk drive, which would fire up the disk and load the program. And I just remember thinking, “Wow, she’s like a hacker.” Like-
Kyle Vogt
… teach me these codes, these error codes, is what I called them at the time. But she had no interest in that, and so it wasn’t until I think about fifth grade that I had a school where you could actually go on these Apple IIs and learn to program. And so it was all in BASIC, you know, where every line, you know, the line numbers are all num- or the… every line is numbered and you have to, like, leave enough space between the numbers so that if you wanna tweak your code, you go back and if the first line was 10 and the second line is 20, now you have to go back and insert 15, and if you need to add code in front of that, you know, 11 or 12, and you hope you don’t run out of line numbers and have to redo the whole thing.
… teach me these codes, these error codes, is what I called them at the time. But she had no interest in that, and so it wasn’t until I think about fifth grade that I had a school where you could actually go on these Apple IIs and learn to program. And so it was all in BASIC, you know, where every line, you know, the line numbers are all num- or the… every line is numbered and you have to, like, leave enough space between the numbers so that if you wanna tweak your code, you go back and if the first line was 10 and the second line is 20, now you have to go back and insert 15, and if you need to add code in front of that, you know, 11 or 12, and you hope you don’t run out of line numbers and have to redo the whole thing.
Lex Fridman
And there’s go-to statements?
And there’s go-to statements?
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, go-to, and it’s, it’s very basic, maybe- … hence the name. But a lot of fun. And that was like, that’s when, you know, when you first program, you see the magic of it. It’s like this world opens up with, you know, endless possibilities for the things you could build or accomplish with that computer.
Yeah, go-to, and it’s, it’s very basic, maybe- … hence the name. But a lot of fun. And that was like, that’s when, you know, when you first program, you see the magic of it. It’s like this world opens up with, you know, endless possibilities for the things you could build or accomplish with that computer.
Lex Fridman
So you got the bug then. So even- … started with BASIC, and then, what, C++ throughout. What did you– Was there computer programming, computer science classes in high school?
So you got the bug then. So even- … started with BASIC, and then, what, C++ throughout. What did you– Was there computer programming, computer science classes in high school?
Kyle Vogt
Not where I went. So it was self-taught, but I did a lot of programming. The thing that, you know, sort of pushed me in the path of eventually working on self-driving cars was actually one of these really long trips driving from my house in Kansas to, to I think Las Vegas, where we did the BattleBots competition. And I had just gotten my, I think my learner’s permit or early driver’s permit. And so I was driving this, you know, 10-hour stretch across western Kansas where it’s just you’re going straight on a highway and it is mind-numbingly boring. And I remember thinking even then with my sort of mediocre programming background that this is something that a computer can do, right?
Not where I went. So it was self-taught, but I did a lot of programming. The thing that, you know, sort of pushed me in the path of eventually working on self-driving cars was actually one of these really long trips driving from my house in Kansas to, to I think Las Vegas, where we did the BattleBots competition. And I had just gotten my, I think my learner’s permit or early driver’s permit. And so I was driving this, you know, 10-hour stretch across western Kansas where it’s just you’re going straight on a highway and it is mind-numbingly boring. And I remember thinking even then with my sort of mediocre programming background that this is something that a computer can do, right?
Kyle Vogt
Let’s take a picture of the road and let’s find the yellow lane markers and, you know, steer the wheel. And, you know, later I’d come to realize this had been done, you know, since the ’80s or the ’70s or even earlier. But I still wanted to do it, and sort of immediately after that trip, switched from sort of BattleBots, which is more radio-controlled machines, to thinking about building, you know, autonomous vehicles of some scale. Start off with really small electric ones and then, you know, progress to what we’re doing now.
Let’s take a picture of the road and let’s find the yellow lane markers and, you know, steer the wheel. And, you know, later I’d come to realize this had been done, you know, since the ’80s or the ’70s or even earlier. But I still wanted to do it, and sort of immediately after that trip, switched from sort of BattleBots, which is more radio-controlled machines, to thinking about building, you know, autonomous vehicles of some scale. Start off with really small electric ones and then, you know, progress to what we’re doing now.
Lex Fridman
So what was your view of artificial intelligence at that point? What, what did you think? So this is before… There’s been waves in artificial intelligence, right? The, the current wave with deep learning makes people believe that you can solve in a really rich, deep way the computer vision perception problem. But, like, in before the deep learning craze, you know, how do you think about how would you even go about building a thing that perceives itself in the world, localizes itself in the world, moves around the world? Like, when you were younger, I mean. As… What was your thinking about it?
So what was your view of artificial intelligence at that point? What, what did you think? So this is before… There’s been waves in artificial intelligence, right? The, the current wave with deep learning makes people believe that you can solve in a really rich, deep way the computer vision perception problem. But, like, in before the deep learning craze, you know, how do you think about how would you even go about building a thing that perceives itself in the world, localizes itself in the world, moves around the world? Like, when you were younger, I mean. As… What was your thinking about it?
Kyle Vogt
Well, prior to deep neural networks or convolutional neural nets, these modern techniques we have, or at least ones that are in use today, it was all a heuristic space. And so, like, old school image processing. And I think extracting, you know, yellow lane markers out of an image of a road is one of the problems that lends itself reasonably well to those heuristic-based methods. You know, like, just do a threshold on the color yellow and then try to fit some lines to that using a Hough transform or something, and then go from there.
Well, prior to deep neural networks or convolutional neural nets, these modern techniques we have, or at least ones that are in use today, it was all a heuristic space. And so, like, old school image processing. And I think extracting, you know, yellow lane markers out of an image of a road is one of the problems that lends itself reasonably well to those heuristic-based methods. You know, like, just do a threshold on the color yellow and then try to fit some lines to that using a Hough transform or something, and then go from there.
Lex Fridman
Traffic light detection and stop sign detection, red, yellow, green.
Traffic light detection and stop sign detection, red, yellow, green.
Kyle Vogt
And I, and I think-
And I, and I think-
Lex Fridman
Or good-
Or good-
Kyle Vogt
… you can, you could… I mean, if you wanted to do a full… I was just trying to make something that would stay in between the lanes on a highway. But if you wanted to do the full, the full, you know, set of capabilities needed for a driverless car, I think you could… I mean, and we’d done this at Cruise, you know, in the very first days. You can start off with a really simple, you know, human-written heuristic just to get the scaffolding in place for your system. Traffic light detection, probably a really simple, you know, color thresholding on day one just to get the system up and running-
… you can, you could… I mean, if you wanted to do a full… I was just trying to make something that would stay in between the lanes on a highway. But if you wanted to do the full, the full, you know, set of capabilities needed for a driverless car, I think you could… I mean, and we’d done this at Cruise, you know, in the very first days. You can start off with a really simple, you know, human-written heuristic just to get the scaffolding in place for your system. Traffic light detection, probably a really simple, you know, color thresholding on day one just to get the system up and running-
Kyle Vogt
… before you migrate to, you know, a deep learning-based technique or, or something else. And, you know, back in, when I was doing this, my first one was on a Pentium 203, 233 MHz computer- … and it, and I, I think I wrote the first version in BASIC, which is- … like, an interpreted language. It’s extremely slow- … ’cause that’s the thing I knew at the time. And so there was no, no chance at all of using there was no computational power to do any sort of reasonable deep nets like you have today. So I don’t know what kids these days are doing. Are kids these days, you know, at age 13 using neural networks in their garage? I mean, that would- … be awesome.
… before you migrate to, you know, a deep learning-based technique or, or something else. And, you know, back in, when I was doing this, my first one was on a Pentium 203, 233 MHz computer- … and it, and I, I think I wrote the first version in BASIC, which is- … like, an interpreted language. It’s extremely slow- … ’cause that’s the thing I knew at the time. And so there was no, no chance at all of using there was no computational power to do any sort of reasonable deep nets like you have today. So I don’t know what kids these days are doing. Are kids these days, you know, at age 13 using neural networks in their garage? I mean, that would- … be awesome.
Lex Fridman
I get emails all the time from, you know, like, 11, 12-year-olds saying, “I’m having, you know, I’m trying to follow this TensorFlow tutorial and I’m having this problem.” And the general approach in the deep learning community is of extreme optimism as opposed to, you mentioned, like, heuristics. You can separate the autonomous driving problem into modules and try to solve it sort of rigorously, or you can just do it end to end. And most people just kind of love the idea that, you know, us humans do it end to end. We just perceive and act. We should be able to do the same kind of thing with neural nets. And that kind of thinking, you don’t want to criticize that kind of thinking because eventually they will be right.
I get emails all the time from, you know, like, 11, 12-year-olds saying, “I’m having, you know, I’m trying to follow this TensorFlow tutorial and I’m having this problem.” And the general approach in the deep learning community is of extreme optimism as opposed to, you mentioned, like, heuristics. You can separate the autonomous driving problem into modules and try to solve it sort of rigorously, or you can just do it end to end. And most people just kind of love the idea that, you know, us humans do it end to end. We just perceive and act. We should be able to do the same kind of thing with neural nets. And that kind of thinking, you don’t want to criticize that kind of thinking because eventually they will be right.
Lex Fridman
And so it’s exciting, and especially when they’re younger, to explore that is a really exciting approach. But yeah, it’s changed the language, the kind of stuff you’re tinkering with. It’s kind of exciting to see when these teenagers grow up.
And so it’s exciting, and especially when they’re younger, to explore that is a really exciting approach. But yeah, it’s changed the language, the kind of stuff you’re tinkering with. It’s kind of exciting to see when these teenagers grow up.
Kyle Vogt
Yeah. I can only imagine if your starting point is, you know, Python and TensorFlow at age 13, where you end up, you know, after 10 or 15 years of that. That’s pretty cool.
Yeah. I can only imagine if your starting point is, you know, Python and TensorFlow at age 13, where you end up, you know, after 10 or 15 years of that. That’s pretty cool.
Lex Fridman
Because of GitHub, because the state-of-the-art tools for solving most of the major problems in artificial intelligence are within a few lines of code for most kids. And that’s incredible to think about. Also on the entrepreneurial side, and on that point, was there any thought about entrepreneurship before you came to college? Is sort of doing your, building this into a thing that impacts the world on a large scale?
Because of GitHub, because the state-of-the-art tools for solving most of the major problems in artificial intelligence are within a few lines of code for most kids. And that’s incredible to think about. Also on the entrepreneurial side, and on that point, was there any thought about entrepreneurship before you came to college? Is sort of doing your, building this into a thing that impacts the world on a large scale?
MIT and DARPA Grand Challenge
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, I’ve always wanted to start a company. I think that’s, you know, just a cool concept of creating something and exchanging it for value or, or creating value, I guess. So in high school I was sort of trying to build like, you know, servo motor drivers, little circuit boards- … and sell them online or other, other things like that. And certainly knew at some point I wanted to do a startup, but it wasn’t really I’d say until college, until I felt like I had the, I guess, the right combination of the environment, the smart people around you, and some free time. I had a lot of free time at MIT.
Yeah, I’ve always wanted to start a company. I think that’s, you know, just a cool concept of creating something and exchanging it for value or, or creating value, I guess. So in high school I was sort of trying to build like, you know, servo motor drivers, little circuit boards- … and sell them online or other, other things like that. And certainly knew at some point I wanted to do a startup, but it wasn’t really I’d say until college, until I felt like I had the, I guess, the right combination of the environment, the smart people around you, and some free time. I had a lot of free time at MIT.
Lex Fridman
So you came to MIT as an undergrad, 2004.
So you came to MIT as an undergrad, 2004.
Kyle Vogt
That’s right.
That’s right.
Lex Fridman
And that’s when the first DARPA Grand Challenge was happening. The timing of that is beautifully poetic. So how’d you get yourself involved in that one?
And that’s when the first DARPA Grand Challenge was happening. The timing of that is beautifully poetic. So how’d you get yourself involved in that one?
Kyle Vogt
Originally there wasn’t a-
Originally there wasn’t a-
Lex Fridman
Official entry?
Official entry?
Kyle Vogt
… sort of, yeah, faculty-sponsored thing, and so a bunch of undergrads, myself included, started meeting and got together and tried to, to haggle together some sponsorships. We got a vehicle donated, a bunch of sensors, and tried to put something together. And so we had, our team was probably mostly freshmen and sophomores- … you know, which was not really a fair fight against maybe the, you know, post-doc and faculty-led teams from other schools. But we got something up and running. We had our vehicle drive by wire and, you know, very, very basic control and things.
… sort of, yeah, faculty-sponsored thing, and so a bunch of undergrads, myself included, started meeting and got together and tried to, to haggle together some sponsorships. We got a vehicle donated, a bunch of sensors, and tried to put something together. And so we had, our team was probably mostly freshmen and sophomores- … you know, which was not really a fair fight against maybe the, you know, post-doc and faculty-led teams from other schools. But we got something up and running. We had our vehicle drive by wire and, you know, very, very basic control and things.
Kyle Vogt
But on the day of the qualifying, sort of pre-qualifying round, the one and only steering motor that we had purchased, the thing that we had, you know, retrofitted to turn the steering wheel on the truck, died. And so our vehicle was just dead in the water, couldn’t steer. So we didn’t make it very far.
But on the day of the qualifying, sort of pre-qualifying round, the one and only steering motor that we had purchased, the thing that we had, you know, retrofitted to turn the steering wheel on the truck, died. And so our vehicle was just dead in the water, couldn’t steer. So we didn’t make it very far.
Lex Fridman
On the hardware side. So was there a software component? Was there… Like, how did your view of autonomous vehicles in terms of artificial intelligence evolve in this moment? I mean, you know, like you said, from the ’80s there’s been autonomous vehicles, but really that was the birth of the modern wave, the thing that captivated everyone’s imagination that we can actually do this. So what, how– Were you captivated in that way? So how did your view of autonomous vehicles change at that point?
On the hardware side. So was there a software component? Was there… Like, how did your view of autonomous vehicles in terms of artificial intelligence evolve in this moment? I mean, you know, like you said, from the ’80s there’s been autonomous vehicles, but really that was the birth of the modern wave, the thing that captivated everyone’s imagination that we can actually do this. So what, how– Were you captivated in that way? So how did your view of autonomous vehicles change at that point?
Kyle Vogt
I’d say at that point in time it was a curiosity, as in like, “Is this really possible?” And I think that was generally the spirit and the purpose of that original DARPA Grand Challenge, which was to just get a whole bunch of really brilliant people exploring this space and pushing the limits. And I think like to this day that DARPA Challenge with its, you know, million dollar prize pool was probably one of the most effective, you know, uses of taxpayer money dollar for dollar that I’ve seen. You know? Because that small sort of initiative that DARPA put out sort of in my view was the catalyst or the tipping point for this whole next wave of autonomous vehicle development. So that was pretty cool.
I’d say at that point in time it was a curiosity, as in like, “Is this really possible?” And I think that was generally the spirit and the purpose of that original DARPA Grand Challenge, which was to just get a whole bunch of really brilliant people exploring this space and pushing the limits. And I think like to this day that DARPA Challenge with its, you know, million dollar prize pool was probably one of the most effective, you know, uses of taxpayer money dollar for dollar that I’ve seen. You know? Because that small sort of initiative that DARPA put out sort of in my view was the catalyst or the tipping point for this whole next wave of autonomous vehicle development. So that was pretty cool.
Lex Fridman
So let me jump around a little bit on that point. They also did the Urban Challenge- … where it was in the city, but it was very artificial and there was no pedestrians, and there was very little human involvement except a few professional drivers. Do you think there’s room… And then there was the robotics challenge with humanoid robots.
So let me jump around a little bit on that point. They also did the Urban Challenge- … where it was in the city, but it was very artificial and there was no pedestrians, and there was very little human involvement except a few professional drivers. Do you think there’s room… And then there was the robotics challenge with humanoid robots.
Kyle Vogt
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
So in your now role as looking at this, you’re trying to solve one of the, you know, autonomous driving, one of the harder, more difficult places, San Francisco. Is there a role for DARPA to step in to also kind of help out, like challenge with new ideas, specifically like pedestrians and so on, all these kinds of interesting things?
So in your now role as looking at this, you’re trying to solve one of the, you know, autonomous driving, one of the harder, more difficult places, San Francisco. Is there a role for DARPA to step in to also kind of help out, like challenge with new ideas, specifically like pedestrians and so on, all these kinds of interesting things?
Kyle Vogt
Well, I haven’t thought about it from that perspective. Is there anything DARPA could do today to further accelerate things? And I would say my instinct is that that’s maybe not the highest and best use of their resources and time-
Well, I haven’t thought about it from that perspective. Is there anything DARPA could do today to further accelerate things? And I would say my instinct is that that’s maybe not the highest and best use of their resources and time-
Lex Fridman
Right
Right
Kyle Vogt
… because like kickstarting and spinning up the flywheel is I think what they did in this case for very, very little money. But today this has become like commercially interesting to very large companies, and the amount of money going into it and the amount of people like going through your class and learning about these things and developing these skills is just, you know, orders of magnitude more than it was back then. And so there’s enough momentum and inertia and energy and investment dollars into this space right now that I don’t, I don’t… I think they can just say mission accomplished and move on to the next-
… because like kickstarting and spinning up the flywheel is I think what they did in this case for very, very little money. But today this has become like commercially interesting to very large companies, and the amount of money going into it and the amount of people like going through your class and learning about these things and developing these skills is just, you know, orders of magnitude more than it was back then. And so there’s enough momentum and inertia and energy and investment dollars into this space right now that I don’t, I don’t… I think they can just say mission accomplished and move on to the next-
Lex Fridman
Makes sense
Makes sense
Kyle Vogt
… area of technology that needs help.
… area of technology that needs help.
Founding Justin.tv
Lex Fridman
So then stepping back to MIT, you left MIT during your junior year. What was that decision like?
So then stepping back to MIT, you left MIT during your junior year. What was that decision like?
Kyle Vogt
As I said, I always wanted to do a company in the, or start a company, and this opportunity landed in my lap, which was a couple guys from Yale were starting a new company, and I Googled them and found that they had started a company previously and sold it actually on eBay for about a quarter million bucks, which was a pretty interesting story. But, so I thought to myself, these guys are, you know, rock star entrepreneurs. They’ve done this before. They must be driving around in Ferraris ’cause they sold their company. And you know, I thought I could learn a lot from them. So I teamed up with those guys and, you know, went out during, went out to California during IAP, which is MIT’s-
As I said, I always wanted to do a company in the, or start a company, and this opportunity landed in my lap, which was a couple guys from Yale were starting a new company, and I Googled them and found that they had started a company previously and sold it actually on eBay for about a quarter million bucks, which was a pretty interesting story. But, so I thought to myself, these guys are, you know, rock star entrepreneurs. They’ve done this before. They must be driving around in Ferraris ’cause they sold their company. And you know, I thought I could learn a lot from them. So I teamed up with those guys and, you know, went out during, went out to California during IAP, which is MIT’s-
Kyle Vogt
Month off on a one-way ticket, and basically never went back. We were having so much fun. We felt like we were building something and creating something, and it was gonna be interesting that, you know, I was just all in and got completely hooked. And that business was Justin.tv, which was originally a reality show about a guy named Justin, which morphed into a live video streaming platform, which then morphed into what is Twitch today. So that was quite an unexpected journey.
Month off on a one-way ticket, and basically never went back. We were having so much fun. We felt like we were building something and creating something, and it was gonna be interesting that, you know, I was just all in and got completely hooked. And that business was Justin.tv, which was originally a reality show about a guy named Justin, which morphed into a live video streaming platform, which then morphed into what is Twitch today. So that was quite an unexpected journey.
Lex Fridman
So no regrets.
So no regrets.
Kyle Vogt
No.
No.
Lex Fridman
Looking back, it was just an obvious, I mean, one-way ticket. I mean, if we just pause on that for a second, there was no… How did you know these were the right guys, this is the right decision? You didn’t think, it was just follow the heart kind of thing?
Looking back, it was just an obvious, I mean, one-way ticket. I mean, if we just pause on that for a second, there was no… How did you know these were the right guys, this is the right decision? You didn’t think, it was just follow the heart kind of thing?
Kyle Vogt
Well, I didn’t know. But, you know, just trying something for a month during IAP seems pretty low risk, right?
Well, I didn’t know. But, you know, just trying something for a month during IAP seems pretty low risk, right?
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Kyle Vogt
And then, you know, well, maybe I’ll take a semester off. MIT’s pretty flexible about that. You can always go back, right? And then after two or three cycles of that, I eventually threw in the towel. But you know, I think it’s… I guess in that case, I felt like I could always hit the undo button if I had to.
And then, you know, well, maybe I’ll take a semester off. MIT’s pretty flexible about that. You can always go back, right? And then after two or three cycles of that, I eventually threw in the towel. But you know, I think it’s… I guess in that case, I felt like I could always hit the undo button if I had to.
Lex Fridman
Right. But it nevertheless, from when you look in retrospect, I mean, it seems like a brave decision that, you know, it would be difficult for a lot of people to make.
Right. But it nevertheless, from when you look in retrospect, I mean, it seems like a brave decision that, you know, it would be difficult for a lot of people to make.
Kyle Vogt
It wasn’t as popular. I’d say the general, you know, flux of people out of MIT at the time was mostly into, you know, finance or consulting jobs in Boston or New York, and very few people were going to California to start companies. But today, I’d say that’s, it’s probably inverted, which is just a sign of, a sign of the times, I guess.
It wasn’t as popular. I’d say the general, you know, flux of people out of MIT at the time was mostly into, you know, finance or consulting jobs in Boston or New York, and very few people were going to California to start companies. But today, I’d say that’s, it’s probably inverted, which is just a sign of, a sign of the times, I guess.
Lex Fridman
Yep. So there’s a story about midnight of March 18, 2007, where TechCrunch, I guess, announced Justin.tv earlier than it was supposed to, a few hours. The site didn’t work. I don’t know if any of this is true. You can tell me. And you and one of the folks at Justin.tv, Emmett Shear, coded through the night. Can you take me through that experience? So let me say a few nice things that the article I read quoted Justin Kan said that you were known for hero coding through problems and being a creative, quote, “creative genius.” So on that night, what was going through your head? Or maybe put another way, how do you solve these problems? What’s your approach to solving these kinds of problems where the line between success and failure seems to be pretty thin?
Yep. So there’s a story about midnight of March 18, 2007, where TechCrunch, I guess, announced Justin.tv earlier than it was supposed to, a few hours. The site didn’t work. I don’t know if any of this is true. You can tell me. And you and one of the folks at Justin.tv, Emmett Shear, coded through the night. Can you take me through that experience? So let me say a few nice things that the article I read quoted Justin Kan said that you were known for hero coding through problems and being a creative, quote, “creative genius.” So on that night, what was going through your head? Or maybe put another way, how do you solve these problems? What’s your approach to solving these kinds of problems where the line between success and failure seems to be pretty thin?
Kyle Vogt
That’s a good question. Well, first of all, that’s nice of Justin to say that. I think, you know, I would’ve been maybe 21 years old then and not very experienced at programming. But as with everything in a startup, you’re sort of racing against the clock. And so our plan was the second we had this live streaming camera backpack up and running where Justin could wear it and no matter where he went in a city, it would be streaming live video, and this is even before the iPhone, so this is, like, hard to do back then, we would launch. And so we thought we were there, and the backpack was working, and then we sent out all the emails to launch the company and do the press thing, and then, you know, we weren’t quite actually there.
That’s a good question. Well, first of all, that’s nice of Justin to say that. I think, you know, I would’ve been maybe 21 years old then and not very experienced at programming. But as with everything in a startup, you’re sort of racing against the clock. And so our plan was the second we had this live streaming camera backpack up and running where Justin could wear it and no matter where he went in a city, it would be streaming live video, and this is even before the iPhone, so this is, like, hard to do back then, we would launch. And so we thought we were there, and the backpack was working, and then we sent out all the emails to launch the company and do the press thing, and then, you know, we weren’t quite actually there.
Kyle Vogt
And then we thought, “Oh, well, you know, they’re not gonna announce it until maybe 10:00 AM the next morning, and it’s, I don’t know, it’s 5:00 PM now, so how many hours do we have left? What is that? Like, you know, 17 hours to go.” And that was gonna be fine.
And then we thought, “Oh, well, you know, they’re not gonna announce it until maybe 10:00 AM the next morning, and it’s, I don’t know, it’s 5:00 PM now, so how many hours do we have left? What is that? Like, you know, 17 hours to go.” And that was gonna be fine.
Lex Fridman
Was the problem obvious? Did you understand what could possibly… Like, how complicated was the system at that point?
Was the problem obvious? Did you understand what could possibly… Like, how complicated was the system at that point?
Kyle Vogt
It was, it was pretty messy. So to get a live video feed that looked decent working from anywhere in San Francisco, I put together this system where we had, like, three or four cellphone data modems, and they were, like, we take the video stream and, you know, sort of spray it across these three or four modems and then try to catch all the packets on the other side, you know, with unreliable cellphone networks and-
It was, it was pretty messy. So to get a live video feed that looked decent working from anywhere in San Francisco, I put together this system where we had, like, three or four cellphone data modems, and they were, like, we take the video stream and, you know, sort of spray it across these three or four modems and then try to catch all the packets on the other side, you know, with unreliable cellphone networks and-
Lex Fridman
It’s pretty low-level networking, you know?
It’s pretty low-level networking, you know?
Kyle Vogt
Yeah. And putting these, like, you know, sort of protocols on top of all that to, to reassemble and reorder the packets and have time buffers and error correction and all that kind of stuff. And the night before, it was just static-y. Every once in a while, the image would, would go static-y, and there would be this horrible, like, screeching audio noise, ’cause the audio was also corrupted, and this would happen, like, every five to 10 minutes or so, and it was a really- … you know, off-putting to the viewers.
Yeah. And putting these, like, you know, sort of protocols on top of all that to, to reassemble and reorder the packets and have time buffers and error correction and all that kind of stuff. And the night before, it was just static-y. Every once in a while, the image would, would go static-y, and there would be this horrible, like, screeching audio noise, ’cause the audio was also corrupted, and this would happen, like, every five to 10 minutes or so, and it was a really- … you know, off-putting to the viewers.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. How do you tackle that problem? What was the… You just freaking out behind a computer? There’s… Were, are there other, other folks working on this problem? Like, were you behind a whiteboard? Were you doing-
Yeah. How do you tackle that problem? What was the… You just freaking out behind a computer? There’s… Were, are there other, other folks working on this problem? Like, were you behind a whiteboard? Were you doing-
Kyle Vogt
Yeah. It was- It was a little, it was a little lonely
Yeah. It was- It was a little, it was a little lonely
Lex Fridman
… pair coding?
… pair coding?
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, it was a little lonely, ’cause there was four of us working on the company, and only two people really wrote code, and Emmett wrote the website and the chat system, and I wrote the software for this video streaming device and video server. And so I, you know, it was my sole responsibility to figure that out. And I think, I think it’s those, you know, setting, setting deadlines, trying to move quickly and everything where, where you’re in that moment of intense pressure that sometimes people do their best and most interesting work. And so even though that was a terrible moment, I look back on it fondly, ’cause that’s like, you know, that’s one of those character defining moments, I think.
Yeah, it was a little lonely, ’cause there was four of us working on the company, and only two people really wrote code, and Emmett wrote the website and the chat system, and I wrote the software for this video streaming device and video server. And so I, you know, it was my sole responsibility to figure that out. And I think, I think it’s those, you know, setting, setting deadlines, trying to move quickly and everything where, where you’re in that moment of intense pressure that sometimes people do their best and most interesting work. And so even though that was a terrible moment, I look back on it fondly, ’cause that’s like, you know, that’s one of those character defining moments, I think.
Founding Cruise Automation
Lex Fridman
So in 2013, October, you founded Cruise Automation. So progressing forward another exceptionally successful company. It was acquired by GM in ’16 for $1 billion. But in October 2013, what was on your mind? What was the plan? How does one seriously start to tackle one of the hardest robotics, most important impactful robotics problems of our age?
So in 2013, October, you founded Cruise Automation. So progressing forward another exceptionally successful company. It was acquired by GM in ’16 for $1 billion. But in October 2013, what was on your mind? What was the plan? How does one seriously start to tackle one of the hardest robotics, most important impactful robotics problems of our age?
Kyle Vogt
After going through Twitch, I… Twitch was, was and is today pretty successful, but the work was, the result was entertainment mostly. Like- the, the better the product was, the more we would entertain people and then, you know, make money on the ad revenues and other things. And that was, that was a good thing, and it felt, felt good to entertain people. But I figured, like, you know, what is really the point of becoming a really good engineer and developing these skills other than, you know, my own enjoyment? And I realized I wanted something that scratched more of an existential itch, like something that truly matters.
After going through Twitch, I… Twitch was, was and is today pretty successful, but the work was, the result was entertainment mostly. Like- the, the better the product was, the more we would entertain people and then, you know, make money on the ad revenues and other things. And that was, that was a good thing, and it felt, felt good to entertain people. But I figured, like, you know, what is really the point of becoming a really good engineer and developing these skills other than, you know, my own enjoyment? And I realized I wanted something that scratched more of an existential itch, like something that truly matters.
Kyle Vogt
And so I basically made this list of requirements for a new, if I was gonna do another company, and the one thing I knew in the back of my head, that Twitch took, like, eight years to become successful. And so whatever I do, I better be willing to commit, you know, at least 10 years to, to something. And when you think about things from that perspective- You certainly, I think, raise the bar on what you choose to work on. So for me, the three things were it had to be something where the technology itself determines the success of the product, like hard, really juicy technology problems, ’cause that’s what motivates me. And then it had to have a direct and positive impact on society in some way.
And so I basically made this list of requirements for a new, if I was gonna do another company, and the one thing I knew in the back of my head, that Twitch took, like, eight years to become successful. And so whatever I do, I better be willing to commit, you know, at least 10 years to, to something. And when you think about things from that perspective- You certainly, I think, raise the bar on what you choose to work on. So for me, the three things were it had to be something where the technology itself determines the success of the product, like hard, really juicy technology problems, ’cause that’s what motivates me. And then it had to have a direct and positive impact on society in some way.
Kyle Vogt
So an example would be like, you know, healthcare, self-driving cars, ’cause they save lives, other things where there’s a clear connection to somehow improving other people’s lives. And the last one is it had to be a big business, because for the positive impact to matter, it’s gotta be at large scale.
So an example would be like, you know, healthcare, self-driving cars, ’cause they save lives, other things where there’s a clear connection to somehow improving other people’s lives. And the last one is it had to be a big business, because for the positive impact to matter, it’s gotta be at large scale.
Lex Fridman
Scale, yeah.
Scale, yeah.
Kyle Vogt
And I was thinking about that for a while and I made like a– I tried writing a Gmail clone and looked at some other ideas, and then it just sort of lightbulb went off, like self-driving cars. Like, that was the most fun I had ever had in college working on that. And like, well, what’s the state of the technology? It’s been 10 years. Maybe, maybe times have changed, and maybe now is the time to make this work. And I poked around and looked at… The only other thing out there really at the time was the Google self-driving car project.
And I was thinking about that for a while and I made like a– I tried writing a Gmail clone and looked at some other ideas, and then it just sort of lightbulb went off, like self-driving cars. Like, that was the most fun I had ever had in college working on that. And like, well, what’s the state of the technology? It’s been 10 years. Maybe, maybe times have changed, and maybe now is the time to make this work. And I poked around and looked at… The only other thing out there really at the time was the Google self-driving car project.
Kyle Vogt
And I thought, surely there’s a way to, you know, have an entrepreneur mindset and sort of solve the minimum viable product here. And so I just took the plunge right then and there and said, “This, this is something I know I can commit 10 years to. It’s, probably the greatest applied AI problem of our generation.”
And I thought, surely there’s a way to, you know, have an entrepreneur mindset and sort of solve the minimum viable product here. And so I just took the plunge right then and there and said, “This, this is something I know I can commit 10 years to. It’s, probably the greatest applied AI problem of our generation.”
Lex Fridman
That’s right.
That’s right.
Kyle Vogt
“And if it works, it’s gonna be both a huge business, and therefore, like, probably the most positive impact I can possibly have on the world.” So after that lightbulb went off, I went all in on Cruise immediately and got to work.
“And if it works, it’s gonna be both a huge business, and therefore, like, probably the most positive impact I can possibly have on the world.” So after that lightbulb went off, I went all in on Cruise immediately and got to work.
Lex Fridman
Did you have an idea how to solve this problem? Which aspects of the problem to solve? You know, slow-moving– like, we just had Oliver from Voyage here. Slow-moving retirement communities, urban driving, highway driving. Did you have, like did you have a vision of the city of the future where, you know, the transportation is largely automated, that kind of thing, or was it sort of more fuzzy and gray area than that?
Did you have an idea how to solve this problem? Which aspects of the problem to solve? You know, slow-moving– like, we just had Oliver from Voyage here. Slow-moving retirement communities, urban driving, highway driving. Did you have, like did you have a vision of the city of the future where, you know, the transportation is largely automated, that kind of thing, or was it sort of more fuzzy and gray area than that?
Kyle Vogt
My analysis of the situation is that Google’s putting a lot of, had been putting a lot of money into that project. They had a lot more resources, and so… And they still hadn’t cracked the fully driverless car. You know, this is 2013, I guess. So I thought, what, what can I do to sort of go from zero to, you know, significant scale so I can actually solve the real problem, which is the driverless cars? And I thought, here’s the strategy. We’ll start by doing a really simple problem or solving a really simple problem that creates value for people. So eventually ended up deciding on automating highway driving.
My analysis of the situation is that Google’s putting a lot of, had been putting a lot of money into that project. They had a lot more resources, and so… And they still hadn’t cracked the fully driverless car. You know, this is 2013, I guess. So I thought, what, what can I do to sort of go from zero to, you know, significant scale so I can actually solve the real problem, which is the driverless cars? And I thought, here’s the strategy. We’ll start by doing a really simple problem or solving a really simple problem that creates value for people. So eventually ended up deciding on automating highway driving.
Kyle Vogt
Which is relatively more straightforward as long as there’s a backup driver there. And I’ll, you know, the go-to-market will be able to retrofit people’s cars and just sell these products directly. And the idea was we’ll take all the revenue and profits from that and use it to do the– so sort of reinvest that in research for doing fully-
Which is relatively more straightforward as long as there’s a backup driver there. And I’ll, you know, the go-to-market will be able to retrofit people’s cars and just sell these products directly. And the idea was we’ll take all the revenue and profits from that and use it to do the– so sort of reinvest that in research for doing fully-
Lex Fridman
Full
Full
Kyle Vogt
… driverless cars. And that was the plan. The only thing that really changed along the way between then and now is we never really launched the first product. We had enough interest from investors and enough of a signal that this was something that we should be working on, that after about a year of working on the Highway Autopilot, we had it working, you know, on, at a prototype stage, but we just completely abandoned that and said, “We’re gonna go all in on driverless cars. Now is the time. Can’t think of anything that’s more exciting, and if it works, more impactful, so we’re just gonna go for it.”
… driverless cars. And that was the plan. The only thing that really changed along the way between then and now is we never really launched the first product. We had enough interest from investors and enough of a signal that this was something that we should be working on, that after about a year of working on the Highway Autopilot, we had it working, you know, on, at a prototype stage, but we just completely abandoned that and said, “We’re gonna go all in on driverless cars. Now is the time. Can’t think of anything that’s more exciting, and if it works, more impactful, so we’re just gonna go for it.”
Lex Fridman
The idea of retrofit is kind of interesting. Of being able to… It’s how you achieve scale. It’s a really interesting idea. Is it something that’s still in the back of your mind as a possibility?
The idea of retrofit is kind of interesting. Of being able to… It’s how you achieve scale. It’s a really interesting idea. Is it something that’s still in the back of your mind as a possibility?
Kyle Vogt
Not at all. I’ve come full circle on that one.
Not at all. I’ve come full circle on that one.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
Kyle Vogt
After trying to build a retrofit product, and I’ll touch on some of the complexities of that, and then also having been inside an OEM and seeing how things work and how a vehicle is developed and validated, when it comes to something that has safety critical implications, like-
After trying to build a retrofit product, and I’ll touch on some of the complexities of that, and then also having been inside an OEM and seeing how things work and how a vehicle is developed and validated, when it comes to something that has safety critical implications, like-
Kyle Vogt
… controlling the steering and, you know, other control inputs on your car, it’s pretty hard to get there with a retrofit. Or, even if you did it, it creates a whole bunch of new complications around liability, or how did you truly validate that? Or, you know, if something in the base vehicle fails and causes your system to fail, whose fault is it? Or if the car’s anti-lock brake systems or other things kick in, or the software has been– it’s different in one version of the car you retrofit versus another, and you don’t know because the manufacturer has updated it behind the scenes. There’s basically an infinite list of long tail issues that can get you, and if you’re dealing with a safety critical product, that’s not really acceptable.
… controlling the steering and, you know, other control inputs on your car, it’s pretty hard to get there with a retrofit. Or, even if you did it, it creates a whole bunch of new complications around liability, or how did you truly validate that? Or, you know, if something in the base vehicle fails and causes your system to fail, whose fault is it? Or if the car’s anti-lock brake systems or other things kick in, or the software has been– it’s different in one version of the car you retrofit versus another, and you don’t know because the manufacturer has updated it behind the scenes. There’s basically an infinite list of long tail issues that can get you, and if you’re dealing with a safety critical product, that’s not really acceptable.
Lex Fridman
That’s a really convincing summary of why it’s really challenging. ‘Cause it’s-
That’s a really convincing summary of why it’s really challenging. ‘Cause it’s-
Kyle Vogt
But I didn’t know all that at the time. So we tried it anyway.
But I didn’t know all that at the time. So we tried it anyway.
Lex Fridman
But as a pitch also, at the time- … it’s a really strong one. ‘Cause that’s how you achieve scale, and that’s how you beat the current, the leader at the time of Google, or the only one in the market.
But as a pitch also, at the time- … it’s a really strong one. ‘Cause that’s how you achieve scale, and that’s how you beat the current, the leader at the time of Google, or the only one in the market.
Kyle Vogt
The other big problem we ran into, which is perhaps the biggest problem from a business model perspective, is we had kind of assumed that we’d… We started with an Audi S4 as the vehicle we retrofitted with this highway driving capability, and we had kind of assumed that if we just knock out, like, three make and models of vehicle, that’ll cover, like, 80% of the San Francisco market.
The other big problem we ran into, which is perhaps the biggest problem from a business model perspective, is we had kind of assumed that we’d… We started with an Audi S4 as the vehicle we retrofitted with this highway driving capability, and we had kind of assumed that if we just knock out, like, three make and models of vehicle, that’ll cover, like, 80% of the San Francisco market.
Kyle Vogt
Doesn’t everyone there drive, I don’t know, a BMW or a Honda Civic or one of these three cars? And then we surveyed our users, and we found out that it’s all over the place. We would– To get even a decent number of units sold, we’d have to support, like, you know, 20 or 50 different models, and each one is a little butterfly that takes time and effort to maintain, you know, that retrofit integration and custom hardware and all this. So it was a tough business.
Doesn’t everyone there drive, I don’t know, a BMW or a Honda Civic or one of these three cars? And then we surveyed our users, and we found out that it’s all over the place. We would– To get even a decent number of units sold, we’d have to support, like, you know, 20 or 50 different models, and each one is a little butterfly that takes time and effort to maintain, you know, that retrofit integration and custom hardware and all this. So it was a tough business.
Cruise and General Motors
Lex Fridman
So GM manufactures and sells over nine million cars a year, and what you with Cruise are trying to do some of the most cutting-edge innovation in terms of applying AI. And so how, how do those… You’ve, we’ve talked about it a little bit before, but it’s also just fascinating to me. We work with a lot of automakers. You know, the difference between the gap between Detroit and Silicon Valley, let’s say, just to be sort of poetic about it, I guess. What, how do you close that gap? How do you take GM into the future where a large part of the fleet will be autonomous perhaps?
So GM manufactures and sells over nine million cars a year, and what you with Cruise are trying to do some of the most cutting-edge innovation in terms of applying AI. And so how, how do those… You’ve, we’ve talked about it a little bit before, but it’s also just fascinating to me. We work with a lot of automakers. You know, the difference between the gap between Detroit and Silicon Valley, let’s say, just to be sort of poetic about it, I guess. What, how do you close that gap? How do you take GM into the future where a large part of the fleet will be autonomous perhaps?
Kyle Vogt
I wanna start by acknowledging that GM is made up of, you know, tens of thousands of really brilliant, motivated people who wanna be a part of the future, and so it’s pretty fun to work with them. The attitude inside a car company like that is, you know, embracing this transformation and change rather than fearing it. And I think that’s a testament to the leadership at GM, and that’s flowing all the way through to everyone you talk to, even the people in the assembly plants working on these cars.
I wanna start by acknowledging that GM is made up of, you know, tens of thousands of really brilliant, motivated people who wanna be a part of the future, and so it’s pretty fun to work with them. The attitude inside a car company like that is, you know, embracing this transformation and change rather than fearing it. And I think that’s a testament to the leadership at GM, and that’s flowing all the way through to everyone you talk to, even the people in the assembly plants working on these cars.
Kyle Vogt
So that’s really great. So starting from that position makes it a lot easier. So then when the people in San Francisco at Cruise interact with the people at GM, at least we have this common set of values, which is that we really want this stuff to work ’cause we think it’s important and we think it’s the future. That’s not to say, you know, those two cultures don’t clash. They absolutely do. There’s different sort of value systems. Like in a car company, the thing that gets you promoted and sort of the reward system is following the processes, delivering the program on time and on budget.
So that’s really great. So starting from that position makes it a lot easier. So then when the people in San Francisco at Cruise interact with the people at GM, at least we have this common set of values, which is that we really want this stuff to work ’cause we think it’s important and we think it’s the future. That’s not to say, you know, those two cultures don’t clash. They absolutely do. There’s different sort of value systems. Like in a car company, the thing that gets you promoted and sort of the reward system is following the processes, delivering the program on time and on budget.
Kyle Vogt
So any sort of risk-taking is discouraged in many ways because if a program is late or if you shut down the plant for a day, it’s, you know, you can count the millions of dollars that burn by pretty quickly. Whereas I think in most Silicon Valley companies and in Cruise and the methodology we were employing, especially around the time of the acquisition, the reward structure is about trying to solve these complex problems in any way, shape, or form or coming up with crazy ideas that, you know, 90% of them won’t work.
So any sort of risk-taking is discouraged in many ways because if a program is late or if you shut down the plant for a day, it’s, you know, you can count the millions of dollars that burn by pretty quickly. Whereas I think in most Silicon Valley companies and in Cruise and the methodology we were employing, especially around the time of the acquisition, the reward structure is about trying to solve these complex problems in any way, shape, or form or coming up with crazy ideas that, you know, 90% of them won’t work.
Kyle Vogt
And so meshing that culture of sort of continuous improvement and experimentation with one where everything needs to be, you know, rigorously defined upfront so that you never slip a deadline or miss a budget was a pretty big challenge. And we’re over three years in now after the acquisition, and I’d say, like, you know, the investment we made in figuring out how to work together successfully and who should do what and how we bridge the gaps between these very different systems and way of doing engineering work is now one of our greatest assets ’cause I think we have this really powerful thing. But for a while both GM and Cruise were very steep on the learning curve.
And so meshing that culture of sort of continuous improvement and experimentation with one where everything needs to be, you know, rigorously defined upfront so that you never slip a deadline or miss a budget was a pretty big challenge. And we’re over three years in now after the acquisition, and I’d say, like, you know, the investment we made in figuring out how to work together successfully and who should do what and how we bridge the gaps between these very different systems and way of doing engineering work is now one of our greatest assets ’cause I think we have this really powerful thing. But for a while both GM and Cruise were very steep on the learning curve.
Lex Fridman
Yes, I’m sure it was very stressful. It’s really important work ’cause that’s, that’s how to revolutionize the transportation. Really to revolutionize any system. You know, you look at the healthcare system or you look at the legal system. I have people, like lawyers come up to me all the time, like everything they’re working on can easily be automated, but then that’s-
Yes, I’m sure it was very stressful. It’s really important work ’cause that’s, that’s how to revolutionize the transportation. Really to revolutionize any system. You know, you look at the healthcare system or you look at the legal system. I have people, like lawyers come up to me all the time, like everything they’re working on can easily be automated, but then that’s-
Kyle Vogt
That’s not a good feeling. Yeah.
That’s not a good feeling. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
Well, it’s not a good feeling, but also there’s no way to automate because the entire infrastructure is really, you know, based, is older and it moves very slowly. And so how do you close the gap between I have an e- how can I replace… Of course, lawyers don’t wanna be replaced with an app, but you could- … replace a lot of aspect when most of the data is still on paper. And so the same thing with, with automotive. I mean, it’s fundamentally software. So it’s, it’s basically hiring software engineers. It’s thinking in a software world. I mean, I’m pretty sure nobody in Silicon Valley has ever hit a deadline. So, and then on, on GM-
Well, it’s not a good feeling, but also there’s no way to automate because the entire infrastructure is really, you know, based, is older and it moves very slowly. And so how do you close the gap between I have an e- how can I replace… Of course, lawyers don’t wanna be replaced with an app, but you could- … replace a lot of aspect when most of the data is still on paper. And so the same thing with, with automotive. I mean, it’s fundamentally software. So it’s, it’s basically hiring software engineers. It’s thinking in a software world. I mean, I’m pretty sure nobody in Silicon Valley has ever hit a deadline. So, and then on, on GM-
Kyle Vogt
That’s, that’s probably true, yeah.
That’s, that’s probably true, yeah.
Lex Fridman
On GM’s side it’s probably the opposite. So that culture gap is really fascinating. So you’re optimistic about the future of that?
On GM’s side it’s probably the opposite. So that culture gap is really fascinating. So you’re optimistic about the future of that?
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, I mean, from what I’ve seen it’s impressive. And I think, like, especially in Silicon Valley, it’s easy to write off building cars because, you know, people have been doing that for over 100 years now in this country. And so it seems like that’s a solved problem, but that doesn’t mean it’s an easy problem. And I think it would be easy to sort of overlook that and think that, you know, we’re Silicon Valley engineers, we can solve any problem. You know, building a car, it’s been done, therefore it’s not a real engineering challenge.
Yeah, I mean, from what I’ve seen it’s impressive. And I think, like, especially in Silicon Valley, it’s easy to write off building cars because, you know, people have been doing that for over 100 years now in this country. And so it seems like that’s a solved problem, but that doesn’t mean it’s an easy problem. And I think it would be easy to sort of overlook that and think that, you know, we’re Silicon Valley engineers, we can solve any problem. You know, building a car, it’s been done, therefore it’s not a real engineering challenge.
Kyle Vogt
But after having seen just the sheer scale and magnitude and industrialization that occurs inside of an automotive assembly plant, that is a lot of work that I am very glad that we don’t have to reinvent to make self-driving cars work. And so to have, you know, partners who have done that for 100 years, have these great processes and this huge infrastructure and supply base that we can tap into is just remarkable because the scope and surface area of the problem of deploying fleets of self-driving cars is so large that we’re constantly looking for ways to do less so we can focus on the things that really matter more. And if we had to figure out how to build and assemble and, you know-
But after having seen just the sheer scale and magnitude and industrialization that occurs inside of an automotive assembly plant, that is a lot of work that I am very glad that we don’t have to reinvent to make self-driving cars work. And so to have, you know, partners who have done that for 100 years, have these great processes and this huge infrastructure and supply base that we can tap into is just remarkable because the scope and surface area of the problem of deploying fleets of self-driving cars is so large that we’re constantly looking for ways to do less so we can focus on the things that really matter more. And if we had to figure out how to build and assemble and, you know-
Lex Fridman
Tests and, yeah
Tests and, yeah
Kyle Vogt
… yeah, build the cars themselves, I mean, we work closely with GM on that, but if we had to develop all that capability in-house as well, you know, that would just make the problem really intractable, I think.
… yeah, build the cars themselves, I mean, we work closely with GM on that, but if we had to develop all that capability in-house as well, you know, that would just make the problem really intractable, I think.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. So yeah, just like your first entry at the MIT DARPA Challenge when there was what, the motor that failed. If somebody that knows what they’re doing with a motor did it, they could just focus on the soft-
Mm-hmm. So yeah, just like your first entry at the MIT DARPA Challenge when there was what, the motor that failed. If somebody that knows what they’re doing with a motor did it, they could just focus on the soft-
Kyle Vogt
That would’ve been nice if we could just focus on the software- … not the, not the hardware platform. Yeah.
That would’ve been nice if we could just focus on the software- … not the, not the hardware platform. Yeah.
Self-driving car economics
Lex Fridman
Right. So from your perspective now, you know, there are so many ways that autonomous vehicles can impact society in the next year, five years, 10 years. What do you think is the biggest opportunity to make money in autonomous driving? So sort of make it a financially viable thing in the near term. What do you think will be the biggest impact there?
Right. So from your perspective now, you know, there are so many ways that autonomous vehicles can impact society in the next year, five years, 10 years. What do you think is the biggest opportunity to make money in autonomous driving? So sort of make it a financially viable thing in the near term. What do you think will be the biggest impact there?
Kyle Vogt
Well, the things that drive the economics for fleets of self-driving cars are, there’s sort of a handful of variables. One is, you know, the cost to build the vehicle itself, so the material cost. How many, you know, what’s the cost of all your sensors plus the cost of the vehicle and every, all the other components on it. Another one is the lifetime of the vehicle. It’s very different if your vehicle drives 100,000 miles and then it falls apart versus, you know, two million. And then, you know, if you have a fleet, it’s kinda like an airplane or an airline where once you produce the vehicle, you want it to be in operation-
Well, the things that drive the economics for fleets of self-driving cars are, there’s sort of a handful of variables. One is, you know, the cost to build the vehicle itself, so the material cost. How many, you know, what’s the cost of all your sensors plus the cost of the vehicle and every, all the other components on it. Another one is the lifetime of the vehicle. It’s very different if your vehicle drives 100,000 miles and then it falls apart versus, you know, two million. And then, you know, if you have a fleet, it’s kinda like an airplane or an airline where once you produce the vehicle, you want it to be in operation-
Kyle Vogt
… as many hours a day as possible producing revenue. And then you know, the other piece of that is How are you generating revenue? And I think that’s kinda what you’re asking. And I think the obvious things today are, you know, the ride sharing business, because that’s pretty clear that there’s demand for that. There’s existing markets you can tap into.
… as many hours a day as possible producing revenue. And then you know, the other piece of that is How are you generating revenue? And I think that’s kinda what you’re asking. And I think the obvious things today are, you know, the ride sharing business, because that’s pretty clear that there’s demand for that. There’s existing markets you can tap into.
Lex Fridman
Large urban areas, that kind of thing.
Large urban areas, that kind of thing.
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, yeah. And I think that there are some real benefits to having cars without drivers compared to sort of the status quo for people who use ride share services today. You know, you get privacy, consistency, hopefully significantly improved safety, all these benefits versus the current product. But it’s a crowded market, and then other opportunities which you’ve seen a lot of activity in the last, really in the last six to 12 months is, you know, delivery, whether that’s parcels and packages, food, or groceries.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that there are some real benefits to having cars without drivers compared to sort of the status quo for people who use ride share services today. You know, you get privacy, consistency, hopefully significantly improved safety, all these benefits versus the current product. But it’s a crowded market, and then other opportunities which you’ve seen a lot of activity in the last, really in the last six to 12 months is, you know, delivery, whether that’s parcels and packages, food, or groceries.
Kyle Vogt
Those are all sort of, I think, opportunities that are pretty ripe for these, you know, once you have this core technology, which is the fleet of autonomous vehicles, there’s all sorts of different business opportunities you can build on top of that. But I think the important thing, of course, is that there’s zero monetization opportunity until you actually have that fleet of very capable driverless cars that are as good or better than humans. And that’s sort of where the entire industry is sort of in this holding pattern right now.
Those are all sort of, I think, opportunities that are pretty ripe for these, you know, once you have this core technology, which is the fleet of autonomous vehicles, there’s all sorts of different business opportunities you can build on top of that. But I think the important thing, of course, is that there’s zero monetization opportunity until you actually have that fleet of very capable driverless cars that are as good or better than humans. And that’s sort of where the entire industry is sort of in this holding pattern right now.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, they’re trying to achieve that baseline. So, but you said sort of reli- not reliability, consistency. It’s kinda interesting. I think I heard you say somewhere, I’m not sure if that’s what you meant, but, you know, I can imagine a situation where you would get in an autonomous vehicle and you know, when you get into an Uber or Lyft, you don’t get to choose the driver in a sense that you don’t get to choose the personality of the driving. Do you think there’s room to define the personality of the car, the way it drives you in terms of aggressiveness, for example, in terms of sort of pushing the bound- the, one of the biggest challenges in autonomous driving is the trade-off between sort of safety and assertiveness.
Yeah, they’re trying to achieve that baseline. So, but you said sort of reli- not reliability, consistency. It’s kinda interesting. I think I heard you say somewhere, I’m not sure if that’s what you meant, but, you know, I can imagine a situation where you would get in an autonomous vehicle and you know, when you get into an Uber or Lyft, you don’t get to choose the driver in a sense that you don’t get to choose the personality of the driving. Do you think there’s room to define the personality of the car, the way it drives you in terms of aggressiveness, for example, in terms of sort of pushing the bound- the, one of the biggest challenges in autonomous driving is the trade-off between sort of safety and assertiveness.
Lex Fridman
And is, do you think there’s any room for the human to take a role in that decision to accept some-
And is, do you think there’s any room for the human to take a role in that decision to accept some-
Kyle Vogt
I mean, we-
I mean, we-
Lex Fridman
… of the liability, I guess?
… of the liability, I guess?
Kyle Vogt
We, I wouldn’t as- No, I’d say within reasonable bounds, as in we’re not gonna I think it’d be highly unlikely we’d expose any knob that would let you, you know, significantly increase, you know, safety risk. I think that’s just not something we’d be willing to do. But I think driving style or, like, you know, are you gonna relax the comfort constraints slightly or things like that, all of those things make sense and are plausible. I see all those as, you know, nice optimizations once, again, we get the core problem solved and these fleets out there. But the other thing we’ve sort of observed is that you have this intuition that if you sort of slam your foot on the gas right after the light turns green and aggressively accelerate, you’re gonna get there faster.
We, I wouldn’t as- No, I’d say within reasonable bounds, as in we’re not gonna I think it’d be highly unlikely we’d expose any knob that would let you, you know, significantly increase, you know, safety risk. I think that’s just not something we’d be willing to do. But I think driving style or, like, you know, are you gonna relax the comfort constraints slightly or things like that, all of those things make sense and are plausible. I see all those as, you know, nice optimizations once, again, we get the core problem solved and these fleets out there. But the other thing we’ve sort of observed is that you have this intuition that if you sort of slam your foot on the gas right after the light turns green and aggressively accelerate, you’re gonna get there faster.
Kyle Vogt
But the actual impact of doing that is pretty small. You feel like you’re getting there faster, but so the, so the same would be true for AVs. Even if they don’t slam their, you know, the pedal to the floor when the light turns green, they’re gonna get you there within, you know, if it’s a 15-minute trip, within 30 seconds of what you would have done otherwise if you were going really aggressively. So I think there’s this sort of self-deception that my aggressive driving style is getting me there faster.
But the actual impact of doing that is pretty small. You feel like you’re getting there faster, but so the, so the same would be true for AVs. Even if they don’t slam their, you know, the pedal to the floor when the light turns green, they’re gonna get you there within, you know, if it’s a 15-minute trip, within 30 seconds of what you would have done otherwise if you were going really aggressively. So I think there’s this sort of self-deception that my aggressive driving style is getting me there faster.
Lex Fridman
Well, so that’s, you know, some of the things I study, some of the things I’m fascinated by, the psychology of that. I don’t think it matters that it doesn’t get you there faster. It’s the emotional release. Driving is a place, being inside of a car, somebody said it’s like the real world version of being a troll. So you have this protection, this mental protection, and you’re able to sort of yell at the world, like release your anger, whatever is bo- so there’s an element of that that I think autonomous vehicles would also have to s- you know, giving an outlet to people, but it doesn’t have to be through driving or honking or so on.
Well, so that’s, you know, some of the things I study, some of the things I’m fascinated by, the psychology of that. I don’t think it matters that it doesn’t get you there faster. It’s the emotional release. Driving is a place, being inside of a car, somebody said it’s like the real world version of being a troll. So you have this protection, this mental protection, and you’re able to sort of yell at the world, like release your anger, whatever is bo- so there’s an element of that that I think autonomous vehicles would also have to s- you know, giving an outlet to people, but it doesn’t have to be through driving or honking or so on.
Lex Fridman
There might be other outlets. But I think to just sort of even just put that aside, the baseline is really, you know, that’s the focus, that’s the thing you need to solve, and then the fun human things can be solved after. But so from the baseline of just solving autonomous driving and you’re working in San Francisco, one of the more difficult cities to operate in, what is, in your view currently, the hardest aspect of autonomous driving? Is it negotiating with pedestrians? Is it edge cases of perception? Is it planning? Is there a mechanical engineering? Is it data, fleet stuff? What are your thoughts on the challen- the more challenging aspects there?
There might be other outlets. But I think to just sort of even just put that aside, the baseline is really, you know, that’s the focus, that’s the thing you need to solve, and then the fun human things can be solved after. But so from the baseline of just solving autonomous driving and you’re working in San Francisco, one of the more difficult cities to operate in, what is, in your view currently, the hardest aspect of autonomous driving? Is it negotiating with pedestrians? Is it edge cases of perception? Is it planning? Is there a mechanical engineering? Is it data, fleet stuff? What are your thoughts on the challen- the more challenging aspects there?
Kyle Vogt
That’s a good question. I think before we go to that though, I just wanna… I like what you said about the psychology aspect- … of this, ’cause I think one observation I’ve made is I think I read somewhere that I think it’s maybe Americans on average spend, you know, over an hour a day on social media- … Like staring at Facebook. And so that’s just, you know, 60 minutes of your life you’re not getting back, and it’s probably not super productive. And so that’s 3,600 seconds, right? And that’s, you know, it’s a lot of time you’re giving up. And if you compare that to people being on the road, if another vehicle, whether it’s a human driver or autonomous vehicle, delays them by even three seconds- … they’re laying in on the horn.
That’s a good question. I think before we go to that though, I just wanna… I like what you said about the psychology aspect- … of this, ’cause I think one observation I’ve made is I think I read somewhere that I think it’s maybe Americans on average spend, you know, over an hour a day on social media- … Like staring at Facebook. And so that’s just, you know, 60 minutes of your life you’re not getting back, and it’s probably not super productive. And so that’s 3,600 seconds, right? And that’s, you know, it’s a lot of time you’re giving up. And if you compare that to people being on the road, if another vehicle, whether it’s a human driver or autonomous vehicle, delays them by even three seconds- … they’re laying in on the horn.
Kyle Vogt
You know, even though that’s, you know, 1/1000th of the time they waste looking at Facebook every day. So there’s definitely some psychology aspects of this I think that are pretty interesting, road rage in general, and then the question of course, is if everyone is in self-driving cars, do they even notice these three-second delays anymore? ‘Cause they’re doing other things or reading or working or just talking to each other. So it’ll be interesting to see where that goes.
You know, even though that’s, you know, 1/1000th of the time they waste looking at Facebook every day. So there’s definitely some psychology aspects of this I think that are pretty interesting, road rage in general, and then the question of course, is if everyone is in self-driving cars, do they even notice these three-second delays anymore? ‘Cause they’re doing other things or reading or working or just talking to each other. So it’ll be interesting to see where that goes.
Lex Fridman
In a certain aspect, people need to be distracted by something entertaining, something useful inside the car so they don’t pay attention to the external world, and then they can take whatever psychology and bring it back to Twitter- … and then focus on that as opposed to sort of interacting, sort of putting the emotion out there into the world. So it’s an interesting problem, but baseline autonomy.
In a certain aspect, people need to be distracted by something entertaining, something useful inside the car so they don’t pay attention to the external world, and then they can take whatever psychology and bring it back to Twitter- … and then focus on that as opposed to sort of interacting, sort of putting the emotion out there into the world. So it’s an interesting problem, but baseline autonomy.
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, I guess you could say self-driving cars, you know, at scale will lower the collective blood pressure of society probably by a couple points- … Without all that road rage and stress. So that’s a good externality. So back to your question about the technology and the, I guess the biggest problems. And I have a hard time answering that question because, you know, we’ve been at this, like, specifically focusing on driverless cars and all the technology needed to enable that for a little over four and a half years now.
Yeah, I guess you could say self-driving cars, you know, at scale will lower the collective blood pressure of society probably by a couple points- … Without all that road rage and stress. So that’s a good externality. So back to your question about the technology and the, I guess the biggest problems. And I have a hard time answering that question because, you know, we’ve been at this, like, specifically focusing on driverless cars and all the technology needed to enable that for a little over four and a half years now.
Kyle Vogt
And even a year or two in, I felt like we had completed the functionality needed to get someone from point A to point B. As in, if we need to do a left turn maneuver or if we need to drive around a, you know, double parked vehicle into oncoming traffic, or navigate through construction zones, the scaffolding and the building blocks were there pretty early on. And so the challenge is not any one scenario or situation for which, you know, we fail at 100% of those. It’s more, you know, we’re benchmarking against a pretty good or pretty high standard, which is human driving. All things considered, humans are excellent at handling-
And even a year or two in, I felt like we had completed the functionality needed to get someone from point A to point B. As in, if we need to do a left turn maneuver or if we need to drive around a, you know, double parked vehicle into oncoming traffic, or navigate through construction zones, the scaffolding and the building blocks were there pretty early on. And so the challenge is not any one scenario or situation for which, you know, we fail at 100% of those. It’s more, you know, we’re benchmarking against a pretty good or pretty high standard, which is human driving. All things considered, humans are excellent at handling-
Kyle Vogt
… edge cases and, and unexpected scenarios, whereas computers are the opposite. And so beating that baseline set by humans is the challenge. And so what we’ve been doing for quite some time now is basically it’s this continuous improvement process where we find sort of the most, you know, uncomfortable or, or the things that, that could lead to a safety issue, other things, all these events, and then we sort of categorize them and rework parts of our system to make incremental improvements and do that over and over and over again. And we just see sort of the overall performance of the system, you know, actually increasing at a pretty steady clip. But there’s no one thing.
… edge cases and, and unexpected scenarios, whereas computers are the opposite. And so beating that baseline set by humans is the challenge. And so what we’ve been doing for quite some time now is basically it’s this continuous improvement process where we find sort of the most, you know, uncomfortable or, or the things that, that could lead to a safety issue, other things, all these events, and then we sort of categorize them and rework parts of our system to make incremental improvements and do that over and over and over again. And we just see sort of the overall performance of the system, you know, actually increasing at a pretty steady clip. But there’s no one thing.
Kyle Vogt
There’s actually, like, thousands of little things and just, like, polishing functionality and making sure that it handles, you know, every version and possible permutation of a situation by either applying more deep learning systems or just by, you know, adding more test coverage or new scenarios that we develop against, and just grinding on that. It’s, we’re sort of in the unsexy phase of development right now, which is doing the real engineering work that it takes to go from prototype to production.
There’s actually, like, thousands of little things and just, like, polishing functionality and making sure that it handles, you know, every version and possible permutation of a situation by either applying more deep learning systems or just by, you know, adding more test coverage or new scenarios that we develop against, and just grinding on that. It’s, we’re sort of in the unsexy phase of development right now, which is doing the real engineering work that it takes to go from prototype to production.
Lex Fridman
You’re basically scaling the grinding. So, sort of taking seriously the process of all those edge cases, both with human experts and machine learning methods to cover all those situations.
You’re basically scaling the grinding. So, sort of taking seriously the process of all those edge cases, both with human experts and machine learning methods to cover all those situations.
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, and the exciting thing for me is I don’t think that grinding ever stops. Because there’s a moment in time where you’ve crossed that threshold of human performance and become superhuman. But there’s no reason, there’s no first principles reason that AV capability will tap out anywhere near humans. Like, there’s no reason it couldn’t be 20 times better, whether that’s, you know, just better driving or safer driving or more comfortable driving, or even 1,000 times better given enough time. And we intend to basically chase that, you know, forever to build the best possible product.
Yeah, and the exciting thing for me is I don’t think that grinding ever stops. Because there’s a moment in time where you’ve crossed that threshold of human performance and become superhuman. But there’s no reason, there’s no first principles reason that AV capability will tap out anywhere near humans. Like, there’s no reason it couldn’t be 20 times better, whether that’s, you know, just better driving or safer driving or more comfortable driving, or even 1,000 times better given enough time. And we intend to basically chase that, you know, forever to build the best possible product.
Lex Fridman
Better and better and better, and always new edge cases come up and new experiences, so, and you wanna automate that process as much as possible. So what do you think in general in society, when do you think we may have hundreds of thousands of fully autonomous vehicles driving around? So first of all, predictions, nobody knows the future. You’re a part of the leading people trying to define that future, but even then you still don’t know. But if you think about hundreds of thousands of vehicles, so a significant fraction of vehicles in major cities are autonomous. Do you think… Are, are you with Rodney Brooks, who is 2050 and beyond? Or are you more with Elon Musk, who is, “We should’ve had that two years ago”?
Better and better and better, and always new edge cases come up and new experiences, so, and you wanna automate that process as much as possible. So what do you think in general in society, when do you think we may have hundreds of thousands of fully autonomous vehicles driving around? So first of all, predictions, nobody knows the future. You’re a part of the leading people trying to define that future, but even then you still don’t know. But if you think about hundreds of thousands of vehicles, so a significant fraction of vehicles in major cities are autonomous. Do you think… Are, are you with Rodney Brooks, who is 2050 and beyond? Or are you more with Elon Musk, who is, “We should’ve had that two years ago”?
Kyle Vogt
Well, I mean-
Well, I mean-
Lex Fridman
I don’t mean to be-
I don’t mean to be-
Kyle Vogt
… I’d love to have it two years ago, but we’re not there yet. So I guess the way I would think about that is let’s flip that question around. So what would prevent you to reach hundreds of thousands of vehicles? And-
… I’d love to have it two years ago, but we’re not there yet. So I guess the way I would think about that is let’s flip that question around. So what would prevent you to reach hundreds of thousands of vehicles? And-
Lex Fridman
That’s a good rephrasing, yeah.
That’s a good rephrasing, yeah.
Kyle Vogt
Yeah, so the… I’d say the, it seems the consensus among the people developing self-driving cars today is to sort of start with some form of an easier environment, whether it means, you know, lacking inclement weather or, you know, mostly sunny or whatever it is, and then add capability for more complex situations over time. And so if you’re only able to deploy in areas that meet sort of your criteria or the current operating domain of the software you developed that may put a cap on how many cities you could deploy in.
Yeah, so the… I’d say the, it seems the consensus among the people developing self-driving cars today is to sort of start with some form of an easier environment, whether it means, you know, lacking inclement weather or, you know, mostly sunny or whatever it is, and then add capability for more complex situations over time. And so if you’re only able to deploy in areas that meet sort of your criteria or the current operating domain of the software you developed that may put a cap on how many cities you could deploy in.
Kyle Vogt
But then as those restrictions start to fall away, like maybe you add capability to drive really well and safely in heavy rain or snow, you know, that probably opens up the market by two or three-fold in terms of the cities you can expand into and so on. And so the real question is, you know, I know today if we wanted to, we could produce that many autonomous vehicles. But we wouldn’t be able to make use of all of them yet ’cause we would sort of saturate the demand in the cities in which we would want to operate initially. So if I were to guess, like, what the timeline is for those things falling away and reaching hundreds of thousands of vehicles-
But then as those restrictions start to fall away, like maybe you add capability to drive really well and safely in heavy rain or snow, you know, that probably opens up the market by two or three-fold in terms of the cities you can expand into and so on. And so the real question is, you know, I know today if we wanted to, we could produce that many autonomous vehicles. But we wouldn’t be able to make use of all of them yet ’cause we would sort of saturate the demand in the cities in which we would want to operate initially. So if I were to guess, like, what the timeline is for those things falling away and reaching hundreds of thousands of vehicles-
Lex Fridman
Maybe a range is better
Maybe a range is better
Kyle Vogt
… I would, I would say less than five years.
… I would, I would say less than five years.
Lex Fridman
Less than five years. And of course, you’re working hard to make that happen.
Less than five years. And of course, you’re working hard to make that happen.
Startup advice from a founder
Lex Fridman
So you started two companies that were eventually acquired each for a billion dollars. So you’re a pretty good person to ask, what does it take to build a successful startup?
So you started two companies that were eventually acquired each for a billion dollars. So you’re a pretty good person to ask, what does it take to build a successful startup?
Kyle Vogt
Hmm. I think there’s sort of survivor bias here a little bit, but I can try to find some common threads for the things that worked for me, which is, you know, in both of these companies, I was really passionate about the core technology. I actually lay awake at night thinking about these problems and how to solve them. And I think that’s helpful because when you start a business, there are – like to this day there are – these crazy ups and downs. Like one day you think the business is just on, you’re just on top of the world and unstoppable, and the next day you think, “Okay, this is all gonna end.
Hmm. I think there’s sort of survivor bias here a little bit, but I can try to find some common threads for the things that worked for me, which is, you know, in both of these companies, I was really passionate about the core technology. I actually lay awake at night thinking about these problems and how to solve them. And I think that’s helpful because when you start a business, there are – like to this day there are – these crazy ups and downs. Like one day you think the business is just on, you’re just on top of the world and unstoppable, and the next day you think, “Okay, this is all gonna end.
Kyle Vogt
You know, it’s just going south, and it’s gonna be over tomorrow.” Um, and so I think, like, having a true passion that you can fall back on and knowing that you would be doing it even if you weren’t getting paid for it helps you weather those tough times. So that’s one thing. I think the other one is really good people. So I’ve always been surrounded by really good co-founders that are logical thinkers, are always pushing their limits, and have very high levels of integrity. So that’s Dan Kan in my current company, and actually his brother and a couple other guys for Justin.tv and Twitch. And then I think the last thing is just I guess persistence or perseverance. Like… And, and that can apply to sticking to sort of a, the…
You know, it’s just going south, and it’s gonna be over tomorrow.” Um, and so I think, like, having a true passion that you can fall back on and knowing that you would be doing it even if you weren’t getting paid for it helps you weather those tough times. So that’s one thing. I think the other one is really good people. So I’ve always been surrounded by really good co-founders that are logical thinkers, are always pushing their limits, and have very high levels of integrity. So that’s Dan Kan in my current company, and actually his brother and a couple other guys for Justin.tv and Twitch. And then I think the last thing is just I guess persistence or perseverance. Like… And, and that can apply to sticking to sort of a, the…
Kyle Vogt
Or having conviction around the original premise of your idea and sticking around to do all the, you know, the unsexy work to actually make it come to fruition- … including dealing with, you know, whatever it is that you’re not passionate about, whether that’s finance or HR or operations or those things. As long as you are grinding away and working towards, you know, that North Star for your business, whatever it is, and you don’t give up, and you’re making progress every day, it seems like eventually you’ll end up in a good place. And the only things that can slow you down are, you know, running out of money or I suppose your competitor is destroying you. But I think most of the time it’s people giving up or somehow destroying-
Or having conviction around the original premise of your idea and sticking around to do all the, you know, the unsexy work to actually make it come to fruition- … including dealing with, you know, whatever it is that you’re not passionate about, whether that’s finance or HR or operations or those things. As long as you are grinding away and working towards, you know, that North Star for your business, whatever it is, and you don’t give up, and you’re making progress every day, it seems like eventually you’ll end up in a good place. And the only things that can slow you down are, you know, running out of money or I suppose your competitor is destroying you. But I think most of the time it’s people giving up or somehow destroying-
Kyle Vogt
… things themselves rather than being beaten by their competition or running out of money.
… things themselves rather than being beaten by their competition or running out of money.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, if you never quit, eventually you’ll arrive. So, uh-
Yeah, if you never quit, eventually you’ll arrive. So, uh-
Kyle Vogt
That’s a much more concise version of what I was trying to say. Yeah, that was good.
That’s a much more concise version of what I was trying to say. Yeah, that was good.
Lex Fridman
So you went the Y Combinator route twice. What do you think, in a quick question, do you think is the best way to raise funds in the early days? Or not just funds, but just community, develop your idea, and so on. Can you do it solo or maybe with a co-founder? With, like, self-funded? Do you think Y Combinator is good? Is it good to do VC route? Is there no right answer, or is there, from the Y Combinator experience, something that you could take away that that was the right path to take?
So you went the Y Combinator route twice. What do you think, in a quick question, do you think is the best way to raise funds in the early days? Or not just funds, but just community, develop your idea, and so on. Can you do it solo or maybe with a co-founder? With, like, self-funded? Do you think Y Combinator is good? Is it good to do VC route? Is there no right answer, or is there, from the Y Combinator experience, something that you could take away that that was the right path to take?
Kyle Vogt
There’s no one-size-fits-all answer, but if your ambition, I think, is to, you know, see how big you can make something or, or rapidly expand and capture a market or solve a problem or whatever it is, then, you know, going the venture backed route is probably a good approach so that capital doesn’t become your primary constraint. Y Combinator I love because it puts you in this sort of competitive environment where you’re surrounded by, you know, the top maybe 1% of other really highly motivated peers who are in the same place.
There’s no one-size-fits-all answer, but if your ambition, I think, is to, you know, see how big you can make something or, or rapidly expand and capture a market or solve a problem or whatever it is, then, you know, going the venture backed route is probably a good approach so that capital doesn’t become your primary constraint. Y Combinator I love because it puts you in this sort of competitive environment where you’re surrounded by, you know, the top maybe 1% of other really highly motivated peers who are in the same place.
Kyle Vogt
And that environment I think just breeds success, right? If you’re surrounded by really brilliant, hardworking people, you’re gonna feel, you know, sort of compelled or inspired to try to emulate them and, or beat them. And so even though I had done it once before and I felt like, you know, I’m pretty self-motivated, I thought, like, “Look, this is gonna be a hard problem. I can use all the help I can get.” So surrounding myself with other entrepreneurs is gonna make me work a little bit harder or push a little harder, then it’s worth it. And so that’s why I did it, you know, for example, the second time.
And that environment I think just breeds success, right? If you’re surrounded by really brilliant, hardworking people, you’re gonna feel, you know, sort of compelled or inspired to try to emulate them and, or beat them. And so even though I had done it once before and I felt like, you know, I’m pretty self-motivated, I thought, like, “Look, this is gonna be a hard problem. I can use all the help I can get.” So surrounding myself with other entrepreneurs is gonna make me work a little bit harder or push a little harder, then it’s worth it. And so that’s why I did it, you know, for example, the second time.
Lex Fridman
Let’s go philosophical, existential. If you go back and do something differently in your life, starting in high school, then MIT, leaving MIT, you could have gone the PhD route, doing the startup, going to see about a startup in California, and you th- or maybe some aspects of fundraising. Is there something you regret, something you th- well, not necessarily regret, but if you go back you could do differently?
Let’s go philosophical, existential. If you go back and do something differently in your life, starting in high school, then MIT, leaving MIT, you could have gone the PhD route, doing the startup, going to see about a startup in California, and you th- or maybe some aspects of fundraising. Is there something you regret, something you th- well, not necessarily regret, but if you go back you could do differently?
Kyle Vogt
I think I’ve made a lot of mistakes. Like, you know, pretty much everything you can screw up I think I’ve screwed up at least once. But I don’t regret those things. I think it’s hard to look back on things even if they didn’t go well and call it a regret because hopefully, you know, it took away some new knowledge or learning from that. So, I would say there was a period… Yeah the closest I can come to is this. There was a period in Justin.tv I think after seven years where the company was going one direction, which was towards Twitch and video gaming. I’m not a video gamer.
I think I’ve made a lot of mistakes. Like, you know, pretty much everything you can screw up I think I’ve screwed up at least once. But I don’t regret those things. I think it’s hard to look back on things even if they didn’t go well and call it a regret because hopefully, you know, it took away some new knowledge or learning from that. So, I would say there was a period… Yeah the closest I can come to is this. There was a period in Justin.tv I think after seven years where the company was going one direction, which was towards Twitch and video gaming. I’m not a video gamer.
Kyle Vogt
I don’t really even use Twitch at all. And I was still working on the core technology there, but my heart was no longer in it because the business that we were creating was not something that I was personally passionate about.
I don’t really even use Twitch at all. And I was still working on the core technology there, but my heart was no longer in it because the business that we were creating was not something that I was personally passionate about.
Lex Fridman
It didn’t meet your bar of existential impact.
It didn’t meet your bar of existential impact.
Kyle Vogt
Yeah. And I’d say I probably spent an extra year or two working on that. And I’d say, like, I would have just tried to do something different sooner, ’cause those were two years where I felt like, you know, from this philosophical or existential thing, I just felt that something was missing. And so I would have… If I could look back now and tell myself, it’s like I would have said exactly that. Like, “You’re not getting any meaning out of your work personally right now. You should find a way to change that.” And that’s part of the pitch I use to basically everyone who joins Cruise today. It’s like, “Hey, you’ve got that now by coming here.”
Yeah. And I’d say I probably spent an extra year or two working on that. And I’d say, like, I would have just tried to do something different sooner, ’cause those were two years where I felt like, you know, from this philosophical or existential thing, I just felt that something was missing. And so I would have… If I could look back now and tell myself, it’s like I would have said exactly that. Like, “You’re not getting any meaning out of your work personally right now. You should find a way to change that.” And that’s part of the pitch I use to basically everyone who joins Cruise today. It’s like, “Hey, you’ve got that now by coming here.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Well, maybe you needed the two years of that existential dread to develop the feeling that ultimately was the fire that created Cruise, so you never know. You can’t really know.
Yeah. Well, maybe you needed the two years of that existential dread to develop the feeling that ultimately was the fire that created Cruise, so you never know. You can’t really know.
Kyle Vogt
Yeah. Good theory, yeah.
Yeah. Good theory, yeah.
Lex Fridman
So last question, what does 2019 hold for Cruise?
So last question, what does 2019 hold for Cruise?
Kyle Vogt
After this I guess we’re gonna go and- … and I’ll talk to your class. But one of the big things is going from prototype to production for autonomous cars, and what does that mean and what does that look like. And 2019 for us is the year that we try to cross over that threshold and reach, you know, superhuman level of performance to some degree with the software, and have all the other of the thousands of little building blocks in place to launch, you know, our first commercial product. So that’s what’s in store for us, and we’ve got a lot of work to do. We’ve got a lot of brilliant people working on it. So it’s all up to us now.
After this I guess we’re gonna go and- … and I’ll talk to your class. But one of the big things is going from prototype to production for autonomous cars, and what does that mean and what does that look like. And 2019 for us is the year that we try to cross over that threshold and reach, you know, superhuman level of performance to some degree with the software, and have all the other of the thousands of little building blocks in place to launch, you know, our first commercial product. So that’s what’s in store for us, and we’ve got a lot of work to do. We’ve got a lot of brilliant people working on it. So it’s all up to us now.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. From Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek, like the people I’ve crossed paths with-
Yeah. From Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek, like the people I’ve crossed paths with-
Kyle Vogt
Oh, great. Yeah.
Oh, great. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
… the few, it sounds like you have an amazing team. So like I said, it’s one of the most, I think one of the most important problems in artificial intelligence of the century. It’ll be one of the most defining. So it’s super exciting that you’re working on it, and the best of luck in 2019. I’m really excited to see what Cruise comes up with.
… the few, it sounds like you have an amazing team. So like I said, it’s one of the most, I think one of the most important problems in artificial intelligence of the century. It’ll be one of the most defining. So it’s super exciting that you’re working on it, and the best of luck in 2019. I’m really excited to see what Cruise comes up with.
Kyle Vogt
Thank you. Thanks for having me today.
Thank you. Thanks for having me today.
Lex Fridman
Thanks, Kyle.
Thanks, Kyle.
Transcript for DHH: Future of Programming, AI, Agentic Engineering, Vibe Coding & Linux | Lex Fridman Podcast #501
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #501 with DHH.
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the main video. Please note that the transcript is
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Here are some useful links:
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the main video. Please note that the transcript is
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Table of Contents
Here are the loose “chapters” in the conversation.
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- 0:00 – Episode highlight
- 1:27 – Introduction
- 2:56 – Programming with AI agents
- 18:14 – How software will change
- 27:30 – AI impact on open source
- 37:21 – Building Omarchy Linux distro
- 47:05 – Vibe coding vs agentic engineering
- 1:00:06 – The end of manual programming
- 1:10:24 – Advice for programmers
- 1:22:30 – Surviving Internet Hate
- 1:31:46 – Programming setup for AI Agents
- 1:44:11 – Obsessing about speed
- 2:07:06 – Voice prompting vs typing
- 2:21:05 – Best AI coding models
- 2:37:55 – Best AI coding harnesses
- 2:50:57 – AI video generation and filmmaking
- 3:10:28 – Fatherhood
- 3:38:35 – Linux will win the desktop
- 3:49:51 – PewDiePie
- 3:59:24 – Future of programming
- 4:22:17 – Politics and immigration
- 4:53:54 – Longevity, over-optimization, and fear of death
- 5:05:38 – Eternal recurrence and future of human civization
Episode highlight
DHH
There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. If you’re not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that’s the delusion. That’s the psychosis. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, “You can have whatever you want. Every feature you’ve ever dreamed of in an operating system, I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it’s gonna take me two hours.” I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds.
There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. If you’re not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that’s the delusion. That’s the psychosis. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, “You can have whatever you want. Every feature you’ve ever dreamed of in an operating system, I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it’s gonna take me two hours.” I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds.
DHH
One of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I’d lay down on the garage floor and just think, “Holy fuck, I’m alive.” The Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. Creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet.
One of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I’d lay down on the garage floor and just think, “Holy fuck, I’m alive.” The Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. Creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet.
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson, also known as DHH, creator of Ruby on Rails, CTO of 37signals, creator of the new Omarchy Linux operating system, best-selling author, race car driver, and one of the most outspoken and prolific programmers in the world. For the past 20-plus years, for him, programming meant meticulously handcrafting beautiful Ruby code. But recently, since late 2025, DHH has embraced the AI revolution and has openly transformed himself into, once again, one of the most outspoken and prolific agentic engineers, even though he hates that term. So let’s say practitioners of whatever programming is becoming where AI is doing most of the actual programming and the human steers the ship with high-level design, vision, and taste. Yes, it’s true.
The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson, also known as DHH, creator of Ruby on Rails, CTO of 37signals, creator of the new Omarchy Linux operating system, best-selling author, race car driver, and one of the most outspoken and prolific programmers in the world. For the past 20-plus years, for him, programming meant meticulously handcrafting beautiful Ruby code. But recently, since late 2025, DHH has embraced the AI revolution and has openly transformed himself into, once again, one of the most outspoken and prolific agentic engineers, even though he hates that term. So let’s say practitioners of whatever programming is becoming where AI is doing most of the actual programming and the human steers the ship with high-level design, vision, and taste. Yes, it’s true.
Lex Fridman
DHH is at times controversial, but he’s always fearless, brilliant, and fun to talk to. This was, once again, an intense, eye-opening, and a wild rollercoaster ride of a conversation. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s DHH.
DHH is at times controversial, but he’s always fearless, brilliant, and fun to talk to. This was, once again, an intense, eye-opening, and a wild rollercoaster ride of a conversation. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s DHH.
Programming with AI agents
Lex Fridman
13 months ago, we sat down right here to talk about programming, and then everything changed. At that time, you were a bit skeptical about the role of AI in the process of programming, and then we went through this rapid evolution of agentic engineering. So simple question to start: How has your view on AI’s role in programming changed? Are you excited? Are you terrified?
13 months ago, we sat down right here to talk about programming, and then everything changed. At that time, you were a bit skeptical about the role of AI in the process of programming, and then we went through this rapid evolution of agentic engineering. So simple question to start: How has your view on AI’s role in programming changed? Are you excited? Are you terrified?
Lex Fridman
Are you on an emotional rollercoaster ride?
Are you on an emotional rollercoaster ride?
DHH
I am incredibly excited.
I am incredibly excited.
Lex Fridman
You’ve been talking about fun a lot.
You’ve been talking about fun a lot.
DHH
There is none of the existential threat. That doesn’t exist for me as an emotional component. It is only there as an intellectual component, and the emotional component for me is 100% pure, unadulterated joy- … and optimism and amazement that we’ve made computers do this. And I find it so interesting that we talked just 13 months ago because it’s like we talked in different universes, different eras. I love this quote. I think it’s Lenin. There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. I mean, imagine you’re there when the Wright brothers take flight.
There is none of the existential threat. That doesn’t exist for me as an emotional component. It is only there as an intellectual component, and the emotional component for me is 100% pure, unadulterated joy- … and optimism and amazement that we’ve made computers do this. And I find it so interesting that we talked just 13 months ago because it’s like we talked in different universes, different eras. I love this quote. I think it’s Lenin. There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. I mean, imagine you’re there when the Wright brothers take flight.
DHH
Yesterday, the New York Times would write, “It’s gonna be 10,000 years before we fly,” and then the day after, we’re up in the skies, and just a few years after that, there were cross-Atlantic planes. The whole world has completely changed. What a blessing to be there in that moment. If you zoom out and look at all of human history, how many humans got to live within the same epoch that they were born in? They never saw that complete change of the world and of society. And to have been blessed with two of those feels just such a privilege. I got to see the internet- … from pre-internet to post-internet, and then now pre-AI, post-AI. What an amazing run. How fortunate.
Yesterday, the New York Times would write, “It’s gonna be 10,000 years before we fly,” and then the day after, we’re up in the skies, and just a few years after that, there were cross-Atlantic planes. The whole world has completely changed. What a blessing to be there in that moment. If you zoom out and look at all of human history, how many humans got to live within the same epoch that they were born in? They never saw that complete change of the world and of society. And to have been blessed with two of those feels just such a privilege. I got to see the internet- … from pre-internet to post-internet, and then now pre-AI, post-AI. What an amazing run. How fortunate.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, but the thing is, this feels like a thing that happened faster than anything else in human history.
Yeah, but the thing is, this feels like a thing that happened faster than anything else in human history.
DHH
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
So I would say somewhere around December, maybe late November-
So I would say somewhere around December, maybe late November-
DHH
November 24.
November 24.
Lex Fridman
This is…
This is…
DHH
That’s the exact moment.
That’s the exact moment.
Lex Fridman
You know, when they talk about when one nation invades another in a world war or something like this, it– this is how we talk about AI changing everything. Yeah, the… And it really just shifted for many great developers. It shifted to where AI is doing some basic autocomplete, maybe writing 5, 10, 15, 20% of code, to writing 80% of code.
You know, when they talk about when one nation invades another in a world war or something like this, it– this is how we talk about AI changing everything. Yeah, the… And it really just shifted for many great developers. It shifted to where AI is doing some basic autocomplete, maybe writing 5, 10, 15, 20% of code, to writing 80% of code.
DHH
Or 100.
Or 100.
Lex Fridman
Or 100, yeah, especially if it’s not a public-facing product.
Or 100, yeah, especially if it’s not a public-facing product.
DHH
To me, that’s why even when I look back upon our conversation a year ago, I don’t actually have different opinions. I have the same opinions. A year ago, I did not like the mode of AI we were offered. It was the autocomplete mode, or it was the AI chatbot mode. Now, the chatbot I actually liked, as we talked about. Great tutor right from the get-go, great way of looking things up on the internet, not what was gonna replace me chiseling code. But- … then we get the agents.
To me, that’s why even when I look back upon our conversation a year ago, I don’t actually have different opinions. I have the same opinions. A year ago, I did not like the mode of AI we were offered. It was the autocomplete mode, or it was the AI chatbot mode. Now, the chatbot I actually liked, as we talked about. Great tutor right from the get-go, great way of looking things up on the internet, not what was gonna replace me chiseling code. But- … then we get the agents.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
And the agents start out being curiosities for about five minutes, and then they get amazing, and then they get, “Oh my God, is this AGI?” And all of that happened since last year, even just in, within the last nine months. We have basically these few phases here. We have AI in the pre-agentic era. I was excited about that, but it was not fundamentally rewriting the rules of the game for me. It was not completely changing how I worked. I was still chiseling code, I just had a little helper, a little sidekick-
And the agents start out being curiosities for about five minutes, and then they get amazing, and then they get, “Oh my God, is this AGI?” And all of that happened since last year, even just in, within the last nine months. We have basically these few phases here. We have AI in the pre-agentic era. I was excited about that, but it was not fundamentally rewriting the rules of the game for me. It was not completely changing how I worked. I was still chiseling code, I just had a little helper, a little sidekick-
DHH
… who could bounce ideas off, and I could look up this information online and so forth in a more efficient way. It was just a more efficient way to do what I was already doing, and it didn’t change the emotional connection I had to the computer. Then we get to November 24th, 2025. Opus 4.5, to me, was the dividing line, where suddenly… I didn’t even try it on the 24th. I think I tried it on the 26th. I gave it a couple of tasks, and I realize that the quality of the output is uncannily close to what I would’ve written. And I remember just leaning back and thinking, “What just happened?”
… who could bounce ideas off, and I could look up this information online and so forth in a more efficient way. It was just a more efficient way to do what I was already doing, and it didn’t change the emotional connection I had to the computer. Then we get to November 24th, 2025. Opus 4.5, to me, was the dividing line, where suddenly… I didn’t even try it on the 24th. I think I tried it on the 26th. I gave it a couple of tasks, and I realize that the quality of the output is uncannily close to what I would’ve written. And I remember just leaning back and thinking, “What just happened?”
DHH
“How did we go from this autocomplete mess that I was talking to you about in the summer to this just a few short months later? How did we get both the increase in intelligence and then also the increase in usability?” This agent harness question where I don’t know if Opus 4.5 was that much smarter than Opus 4, which is what we had in the summer, but its ability to instrument your computer, to use tools, to check its own work, to apply its intelligence in such a way that you could get real meaningful work out of it, was completely different. And I think this is then the big change that happens for almost anyone who paid attention and started playing with it over the Christmas break. This is what I heard-
“How did we go from this autocomplete mess that I was talking to you about in the summer to this just a few short months later? How did we get both the increase in intelligence and then also the increase in usability?” This agent harness question where I don’t know if Opus 4.5 was that much smarter than Opus 4, which is what we had in the summer, but its ability to instrument your computer, to use tools, to check its own work, to apply its intelligence in such a way that you could get real meaningful work out of it, was completely different. And I think this is then the big change that happens for almost anyone who paid attention and started playing with it over the Christmas break. This is what I heard-
DHH
… from Shopify and other places with lots of employees who suddenly had a breather, suddenly had a couple of weeks to lean back and just look at what was going on, gave it a try, and had the same mind-blowing experience that these agents were of a different genre than what we had before. And then what we get to is, I’m already excited at this point. Like, by December, I’m already revisiting sort of all my priors- … and going like, “Wow, if it can do this, can it also do that?” “Oh, yeah, it can.” And again, Opus 4.5 now looks like a retarded model. And this is the magic of this progress, is you think you’ve reached something… I remember thinking at the moment, “If this is the last model we get, I’ll be set. I’ll be happy.”
… from Shopify and other places with lots of employees who suddenly had a breather, suddenly had a couple of weeks to lean back and just look at what was going on, gave it a try, and had the same mind-blowing experience that these agents were of a different genre than what we had before. And then what we get to is, I’m already excited at this point. Like, by December, I’m already revisiting sort of all my priors- … and going like, “Wow, if it can do this, can it also do that?” “Oh, yeah, it can.” And again, Opus 4.5 now looks like a retarded model. And this is the magic of this progress, is you think you’ve reached something… I remember thinking at the moment, “If this is the last model we get, I’ll be set. I’ll be happy.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah. Yep.
DHH
I could live with Opus 4.5 for the next 20 years- … and you would hear no complaints from me because it was just so incredibly amazing to see an agent do all this work in the way that I wanted it done. Because it was not just about it being able to solve a task, it was also that I could look at its path there and go, “Yep. Yep. Maybe not there, but almost,” and it would give you two notes. You’ll get to where I wanted to go in the way I wanted to go there. You could produce code I wanted to merge. You could produce code that actually looked beautiful if it was written in Ruby. Rust, different question. But this ability for the agents to truly become an extension of how I wanted to work was very novel. But then we wait just until early spring, and suddenly we get sub-agents.
I could live with Opus 4.5 for the next 20 years- … and you would hear no complaints from me because it was just so incredibly amazing to see an agent do all this work in the way that I wanted it done. Because it was not just about it being able to solve a task, it was also that I could look at its path there and go, “Yep. Yep. Maybe not there, but almost,” and it would give you two notes. You’ll get to where I wanted to go in the way I wanted to go there. You could produce code I wanted to merge. You could produce code that actually looked beautiful if it was written in Ruby. Rust, different question. But this ability for the agents to truly become an extension of how I wanted to work was very novel. But then we wait just until early spring, and suddenly we get sub-agents.
DHH
We get harnesses that can subdivide the task, and something that would take Opus quite a while suddenly took a fifth of the time, a 10th of the time, because it could get chopped up and suddenly you got eight sub-agents working for you. But both of those two first phases of the agentic age, to me, still felt like I had to drive. I could tell it what I wanted, where to look for it, and steer it a little bit when it went off, and then we’ll get there, and I would go much faster.
We get harnesses that can subdivide the task, and something that would take Opus quite a while suddenly took a fifth of the time, a 10th of the time, because it could get chopped up and suddenly you got eight sub-agents working for you. But both of those two first phases of the agentic age, to me, still felt like I had to drive. I could tell it what I wanted, where to look for it, and steer it a little bit when it went off, and then we’ll get there, and I would go much faster.
DHH
But I had to be in the driver’s seat. I had to tell it what I wanted, and I had to be the reviewer, the auditor of what was coming out. And then finally now, this summer, with Opus 5, Fable, and Sol, GPT Sol, and to a lesser extent, some of the open weight models, we’ve arrived at a new era where I’m not telling it where we’re going. I’m telling it the problem I have. I’m telling it the fuzzy, vague idea I have. It tells me where we’re going. It tells me which path to take, and I will still look at it because I’m a curious person and I like computers and I like the outcome of it, but I really kinda don’t have to. I’ve become optional in the part that produces the code that picks the route. Remember when early GPS systems came out?
But I had to be in the driver’s seat. I had to tell it what I wanted, and I had to be the reviewer, the auditor of what was coming out. And then finally now, this summer, with Opus 5, Fable, and Sol, GPT Sol, and to a lesser extent, some of the open weight models, we’ve arrived at a new era where I’m not telling it where we’re going. I’m telling it the problem I have. I’m telling it the fuzzy, vague idea I have. It tells me where we’re going. It tells me which path to take, and I will still look at it because I’m a curious person and I like computers and I like the outcome of it, but I really kinda don’t have to. I’ve become optional in the part that produces the code that picks the route. Remember when early GPS systems came out?
DHH
They were amazing compared to looking at a map, but you still wanted to pay attention. Is it gonna drive you in the harbor? I remember these newspaper articles. “Ah, GPS, they’re terrible because people don’t pay attention, they drive in the harbor.” When was the last time GPS drove anyone in the harbor? Like, that just doesn’t happen anymore. In fact, the cars now just drive themselves, right? And this is where we’ve arrived at now, that I can trust. For the domain I’m working in right now, I can trust it and feel completely confident that it’s gonna have my back. It’s not gonna do something stupid, and if it does something stupid, it’s gonna be able to recover.
They were amazing compared to looking at a map, but you still wanted to pay attention. Is it gonna drive you in the harbor? I remember these newspaper articles. “Ah, GPS, they’re terrible because people don’t pay attention, they drive in the harbor.” When was the last time GPS drove anyone in the harbor? Like, that just doesn’t happen anymore. In fact, the cars now just drive themselves, right? And this is where we’ve arrived at now, that I can trust. For the domain I’m working in right now, I can trust it and feel completely confident that it’s gonna have my back. It’s not gonna do something stupid, and if it does something stupid, it’s gonna be able to recover.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. We should mention that there’s all kinds of domains that-
Mm-hmm. We should mention that there’s all kinds of domains that-
DHH
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
… programmers operate in. There’s… I actually don’t know, but I think the most common domain in development is, like, web dev CRUD. You have a database.
… programmers operate in. There’s… I actually don’t know, but I think the most common domain in development is, like, web dev CRUD. You have a database.
Lex Fridman
You have a user-facing interface, and it does something back and forth, and it could be internal to just one person, to multiple people, to a small number of people, or to the world. And I think for that, it’s– I mean, you could really get to the 100% of code written by AI and really almost– if you’re a good programmer and you have a good intuition about what’s happening behind the scenes, you can legitimately not look at the code, at least that’s been my experience. I don’t know how much prior experience with programming you need to have to kinda know that things are working correctly behind the scenes, like intuitively by observing the ripple effects, the symptoms of the system.
You have a user-facing interface, and it does something back and forth, and it could be internal to just one person, to multiple people, to a small number of people, or to the world. And I think for that, it’s– I mean, you could really get to the 100% of code written by AI and really almost– if you’re a good programmer and you have a good intuition about what’s happening behind the scenes, you can legitimately not look at the code, at least that’s been my experience. I don’t know how much prior experience with programming you need to have to kinda know that things are working correctly behind the scenes, like intuitively by observing the ripple effects, the symptoms of the system.
Lex Fridman
But I think for that domain it’s close to 100%, and then there’s domains like you’re also operating in, which is writing a Linux distribution. There, maybe there’s more because you’re obsessed with speed and all that kind of stuff. There, maybe you need to look at the code a little bit more. Then there’s maybe safety critical systems all the way down to operating a nuclear power plant or a self-driving car. Maybe you need to look at the code more carefully.
But I think for that domain it’s close to 100%, and then there’s domains like you’re also operating in, which is writing a Linux distribution. There, maybe there’s more because you’re obsessed with speed and all that kind of stuff. There, maybe you need to look at the code a little bit more. Then there’s maybe safety critical systems all the way down to operating a nuclear power plant or a self-driving car. Maybe you need to look at the code more carefully.
DHH
Yes, but that said, AI is insanely capable at both finding-
Yes, but that said, AI is insanely capable at both finding-
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
… and fixing security vulnerabilities. This was the whole blowup about Fable. This model was so capable of finding holes that an attacker could exploit that it was simply not safe to release. So the irony here is that when you look at that field, it seems like we’ve reached levels of intelligence that virtually no human can match because many of these security holes are about stringing combo moves together. You find one little vulnerability here that by itself might not be the worst thing in the world, but then you combine it with four others, and suddenly you have RCE, remote command execution. Humans who are able to do that are very rare. They usually work inside state-sponsored organizations or other clandestine operations. They’re not just out and about finding things.
… and fixing security vulnerabilities. This was the whole blowup about Fable. This model was so capable of finding holes that an attacker could exploit that it was simply not safe to release. So the irony here is that when you look at that field, it seems like we’ve reached levels of intelligence that virtually no human can match because many of these security holes are about stringing combo moves together. You find one little vulnerability here that by itself might not be the worst thing in the world, but then you combine it with four others, and suddenly you have RCE, remote command execution. Humans who are able to do that are very rare. They usually work inside state-sponsored organizations or other clandestine operations. They’re not just out and about finding things.
DHH
So they’ve gotten so good at that. The Linux distribution is why I’ve gotten 100% AI pilled. Because I’ve been working on Omarchy for the last three months, this version that just dropped a few days ago called Quattro. And almost right from the beginning I’m working on that version, the agent acceleration neared 100%, and in the last two months it has been 100%. I have not written-
So they’ve gotten so good at that. The Linux distribution is why I’ve gotten 100% AI pilled. Because I’ve been working on Omarchy for the last three months, this version that just dropped a few days ago called Quattro. And almost right from the beginning I’m working on that version, the agent acceleration neared 100%, and in the last two months it has been 100%. I have not written-
Lex Fridman
Really?
Really?
DHH
… any of the code that’s shipped in Quattro by hand. I’ve reviewed the shape of all of it. I’ve reviewed the individual lines of anything that’s critical in the model layer of the system, and I’ve not looked at a bunch of the UI code. I have not looked at a bunch of the auxiliary code, and I’ve not written any of the new functionality entirely by hand. But then the web part, actually evolving Basecamp and Hey, our professional products that have lots of users and are relatively large code bases, have proven surprisingly tricky to fully accelerate with agents. We just released Basecamp 5 not too long ago. That was the first product at 37signals that was really agent accelerated. Because we were in this final sprint phase from around February. By then, agents were already good.
… any of the code that’s shipped in Quattro by hand. I’ve reviewed the shape of all of it. I’ve reviewed the individual lines of anything that’s critical in the model layer of the system, and I’ve not looked at a bunch of the UI code. I have not looked at a bunch of the auxiliary code, and I’ve not written any of the new functionality entirely by hand. But then the web part, actually evolving Basecamp and Hey, our professional products that have lots of users and are relatively large code bases, have proven surprisingly tricky to fully accelerate with agents. We just released Basecamp 5 not too long ago. That was the first product at 37signals that was really agent accelerated. Because we were in this final sprint phase from around February. By then, agents were already good.
DHH
And we had this early surge of, “It’s solved. We can just have the designers do the programming. They know what features they want. They know what shape they want it to take. Let them vibe.” And we let them vibe. And we ended up with a lot of PRs that individually perhaps could have been justified for a hot moment, but taken all together, destroyed the architecture of the system. And we actually had to clean up manually, mop it up by hand, by human hand, to get back to an architecture that felt cohesive and coherent. So we still have a bit of that– that was February, by the way. Things are quite different now.
And we had this early surge of, “It’s solved. We can just have the designers do the programming. They know what features they want. They know what shape they want it to take. Let them vibe.” And we let them vibe. And we ended up with a lot of PRs that individually perhaps could have been justified for a hot moment, but taken all together, destroyed the architecture of the system. And we actually had to clean up manually, mop it up by hand, by human hand, to get back to an architecture that felt cohesive and coherent. So we still have a bit of that– that was February, by the way. Things are quite different now.
Lex Fridman
Well, hold on a second. What’s the lesson from that? Is one of the lessons from that that you have to be a programmer at this stage to be able to vibe code?
Well, hold on a second. What’s the lesson from that? Is one of the lessons from that that you have to be a programmer at this stage to be able to vibe code?
DHH
To be able to vibe code on existing substantial-
To be able to vibe code on existing substantial-
Lex Fridman
I see.
I see.
DHH
… code bases, even if they’re crud, if you wanna retain the element of architecture that got that system to where it was. Now, that’s also a point where I’ve stressed many times that when people accuse vibe coders of being slob generators, I go right back at them and say, “Have you looked at the average programmer’s output?” That is some other slob too. If you’ve looked at behind the scenes of many great companies and what their code bases look like after there’s been 3,000 humans through them, they’re awful. Absolutely awful.
… code bases, even if they’re crud, if you wanna retain the element of architecture that got that system to where it was. Now, that’s also a point where I’ve stressed many times that when people accuse vibe coders of being slob generators, I go right back at them and say, “Have you looked at the average programmer’s output?” That is some other slob too. If you’ve looked at behind the scenes of many great companies and what their code bases look like after there’s been 3,000 humans through them, they’re awful. Absolutely awful.
How software will change
Lex Fridman
Can you tell me the intuition you have? I seem to—just stepping back and observing the different apps that we all rely on, I don’t know, Adobe Photoshop, all this kind of stuff—there seems to be… the progress on development there has not accelerated. So why is it, what lessons can you draw from Basecamp, like well-established, huge user base? Why aren’t we seeing, like, super rapid increase in, like, new updates, features, all this kind of stuff in these well-established apps?
Can you tell me the intuition you have? I seem to—just stepping back and observing the different apps that we all rely on, I don’t know, Adobe Photoshop, all this kind of stuff—there seems to be… the progress on development there has not accelerated. So why is it, what lessons can you draw from Basecamp, like well-established, huge user base? Why aren’t we seeing, like, super rapid increase in, like, new updates, features, all this kind of stuff in these well-established apps?
DHH
Multiple reasons. I’ll start with the first one that’s the most critical. As soon as you’re having human teams work together on something, the bottleneck is rarely implementation. It’s human bandwidth and communication. When you have a product manager and a couple of designers and a VP above them and a CTO above them, and everyone wants to be part of the shaping process because we’re all justifying why we’re here, that’s where all the productivity goes to die. The revelation I’ve had working on Omarchy the last three months is that to get that magical 10X, 100X, in a few rare cases, 1000X productivity boost, you have to interact with the agents directly, and you cannot intermediate that bandwidth with another human because it’s simply too slow.
Multiple reasons. I’ll start with the first one that’s the most critical. As soon as you’re having human teams work together on something, the bottleneck is rarely implementation. It’s human bandwidth and communication. When you have a product manager and a couple of designers and a VP above them and a CTO above them, and everyone wants to be part of the shaping process because we’re all justifying why we’re here, that’s where all the productivity goes to die. The revelation I’ve had working on Omarchy the last three months is that to get that magical 10X, 100X, in a few rare cases, 1000X productivity boost, you have to interact with the agents directly, and you cannot intermediate that bandwidth with another human because it’s simply too slow.
DHH
And on the one hand, that’s a bit of a bummer. I mean, I like humans, and it’s great to work together. But it also means we need to temper our expectations with what these agents can do if it’s humans driving it, and you have three layers of approval and all the other machinery of a large corporation. The implementation part is only a small segment of it. The other thing I’d say is that most organizations don’t know what they want. They don’t know how to make it better. They’re not bottlenecked on implementation. They’re bottlenecked on ideas. They’re bottlenecked on vision. They’re bottlenecked on taste. And if you don’t have those elements in excess of your implementational capacity, it doesn’t help. So you can make a lot of shitty ideas come true, then what? Are you gonna ship that?
And on the one hand, that’s a bit of a bummer. I mean, I like humans, and it’s great to work together. But it also means we need to temper our expectations with what these agents can do if it’s humans driving it, and you have three layers of approval and all the other machinery of a large corporation. The implementation part is only a small segment of it. The other thing I’d say is that most organizations don’t know what they want. They don’t know how to make it better. They’re not bottlenecked on implementation. They’re bottlenecked on ideas. They’re bottlenecked on vision. They’re bottlenecked on taste. And if you don’t have those elements in excess of your implementational capacity, it doesn’t help. So you can make a lot of shitty ideas come true, then what? Are you gonna ship that?
DHH
That sounds like, I don’t know, something coming out of Microsoft. That’s not what we’re trying to replicate here. That process is not actually… Because we already had this. If you step back for a moment and think of the towering organizations we have who have had tens of thousands of programmers at their disposal. I mean, I’m picking on Microsoft here. I love Microsoft some of the time, but I’ll pick on them in this case because they have had endless resources, endless programming capacity for decades, right? This is what’s showing us that just being able to write a lot of code does not produce great compelling software. Now, the other thing is we’ve had this capacity for about six months. That’s not very long in human life cycle capacity of internalizing what’s going on.
That sounds like, I don’t know, something coming out of Microsoft. That’s not what we’re trying to replicate here. That process is not actually… Because we already had this. If you step back for a moment and think of the towering organizations we have who have had tens of thousands of programmers at their disposal. I mean, I’m picking on Microsoft here. I love Microsoft some of the time, but I’ll pick on them in this case because they have had endless resources, endless programming capacity for decades, right? This is what’s showing us that just being able to write a lot of code does not produce great compelling software. Now, the other thing is we’ve had this capacity for about six months. That’s not very long in human life cycle capacity of internalizing what’s going on.
DHH
And I think it’s actually funny that the critique of AI is, why isn’t it going faster? What are you talking about? We’ve not had any other form of progress that has moved as fast as AI, and you’re impatient because in the last three months we haven’t rewritten the whole world and made it a utopia of software goodness?
And I think it’s actually funny that the critique of AI is, why isn’t it going faster? What are you talking about? We’ve not had any other form of progress that has moved as fast as AI, and you’re impatient because in the last three months we haven’t rewritten the whole world and made it a utopia of software goodness?
Lex Fridman
You’re basically saying everybody should be switching to Linux now. One of the arguments is, like, we can rewrite all the software that’s not available in Linux in Linux. Linux has been the love of my life for many years, but one of the reasons I’m still attached to Windows and now Mac is because of video editing, Premiere.
You’re basically saying everybody should be switching to Linux now. One of the arguments is, like, we can rewrite all the software that’s not available in Linux in Linux. Linux has been the love of my life for many years, but one of the reasons I’m still attached to Windows and now Mac is because of video editing, Premiere.
DHH
We’re gonna fix that. But-
We’re gonna fix that. But-
Lex Fridman
So the question is, who’s gonna build Premiere and Photoshop for Linux? And it feels like one person can now.
So the question is, who’s gonna build Premiere and Photoshop for Linux? And it feels like one person can now.
DHH
100% one person can.
100% one person can.
Lex Fridman
And so, and I’m allowed to be impatient. In fact, me or anyone else, impatience is the first step of doing it yourself, right? Like-
And so, and I’m allowed to be impatient. In fact, me or anyone else, impatience is the first step of doing it yourself, right? Like-
DHH
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
… and there’s a community of tens of thousands of people that use Adobe Premiere or DaVinci, all these non-linear video editors, that know the frustrations. Everybody shares them. You can look at Reddit. You can look at the forums. Everybody knows it. I don’t know what it is. It may be the management. It may be the meetings. All the things you’ve always discussed is the bureaucracy that’s inside companies that’s slowing everything down in the development of features. But it feels like there– if you just let some of the developers loose with a bunch of agents, you can fix all that.
… and there’s a community of tens of thousands of people that use Adobe Premiere or DaVinci, all these non-linear video editors, that know the frustrations. Everybody shares them. You can look at Reddit. You can look at the forums. Everybody knows it. I don’t know what it is. It may be the management. It may be the meetings. All the things you’ve always discussed is the bureaucracy that’s inside companies that’s slowing everything down in the development of features. But it feels like there– if you just let some of the developers loose with a bunch of agents, you can fix all that.
Lex Fridman
But again, based on everything you’re saying, maybe the way to do that is to start over from scratch, maybe through open source, or somebody launches a new company, that within large companies now it’s hard to really accelerate into the agentic era by letting developers just build.
But again, based on everything you’re saying, maybe the way to do that is to start over from scratch, maybe through open source, or somebody launches a new company, that within large companies now it’s hard to really accelerate into the agentic era by letting developers just build.
DHH
This is the classic innovator’s dilemma. These companies have gotten so good, so established at the old way, and therefore their entire structure, management layers, processes are tuned for a time that no longer exists. But you can’t pivot that. These are super tankers. It just doesn’t happen. This is why we’re finally getting this upset in the technology industry. For a while, I was very upset about the duopoly between Apple and Google on mobile, because it felt like mobile was the most important computing platform that we had, and I could not see a path to unseat either Google or Apple sitting on top of that, controlling everything, taking their toll booth money. But the game has changed. This is no longer the most important platform.
This is the classic innovator’s dilemma. These companies have gotten so good, so established at the old way, and therefore their entire structure, management layers, processes are tuned for a time that no longer exists. But you can’t pivot that. These are super tankers. It just doesn’t happen. This is why we’re finally getting this upset in the technology industry. For a while, I was very upset about the duopoly between Apple and Google on mobile, because it felt like mobile was the most important computing platform that we had, and I could not see a path to unseat either Google or Apple sitting on top of that, controlling everything, taking their toll booth money. But the game has changed. This is no longer the most important platform.
DHH
Mobile phones are important, but there’s also a lot of other form factors coming, whether it’s glasses or it’s earpieces or whatever else have you. It’s all in play now, but the computing platforms themselves are in play for the first time in probably 40 years, if you look at the desktop. Linux has been around since ’91. It’s not taken off or taken over on the desktop. It’s taken over everything else. All the devices you have on your desk, your fridge, your toaster, everything runs Linux except for your computer. Now, funnily enough, your Android is actually Linux, but wrapped so sufficiently that you can’t really recognize it. But now there’s an opening, and the opening is exactly as you say it.
Mobile phones are important, but there’s also a lot of other form factors coming, whether it’s glasses or it’s earpieces or whatever else have you. It’s all in play now, but the computing platforms themselves are in play for the first time in probably 40 years, if you look at the desktop. Linux has been around since ’91. It’s not taken off or taken over on the desktop. It’s taken over everything else. All the devices you have on your desk, your fridge, your toaster, everything runs Linux except for your computer. Now, funnily enough, your Android is actually Linux, but wrapped so sufficiently that you can’t really recognize it. But now there’s an opening, and the opening is exactly as you say it.
DHH
If there’s a piece of software you depended on that bound you to Windows, it is completely within reach for you personally to start rewriting it. And maybe you won’t get to 100% coverage, but this is the old joke about Microsoft Office. “I only use 5%.” Yeah, well, we all use a different 5%. Well, what if we all just build our own 5%? What if I just took the functionality that I need and just did that? That is a completely different challenge and one agents are incredibly capable of doing right now today, and I’ve done it a lot of times over. So one of the amazing things I’ve found with the latest agent engaged is I have become a polyglot programmer, something I was absolutely not before. I was a Ruby programmer- … first and foremost, and then I dabbled a little bit in Bash-
If there’s a piece of software you depended on that bound you to Windows, it is completely within reach for you personally to start rewriting it. And maybe you won’t get to 100% coverage, but this is the old joke about Microsoft Office. “I only use 5%.” Yeah, well, we all use a different 5%. Well, what if we all just build our own 5%? What if I just took the functionality that I need and just did that? That is a completely different challenge and one agents are incredibly capable of doing right now today, and I’ve done it a lot of times over. So one of the amazing things I’ve found with the latest agent engaged is I have become a polyglot programmer, something I was absolutely not before. I was a Ruby programmer- … first and foremost, and then I dabbled a little bit in Bash-
DHH
… when I had to. And in the last two months, I’ve written C++. I’ve written three applications that have shipped in Omarchy Quattro. I wrote a writing app. I was using this app called Typora, which is a very nice app-
… when I had to. And in the last two months, I’ve written C++. I’ve written three applications that have shipped in Omarchy Quattro. I wrote a writing app. I was using this app called Typora, which is a very nice app-
Lex Fridman
Great, great app
Great, great app
DHH
… which in itself is based on another app called iA Writer, which was my real love on the Mac- … for a clean, simple Markdown writing environment. That’s where I write all my essays.
… which in itself is based on another app called iA Writer, which was my real love on the Mac- … for a clean, simple Markdown writing environment. That’s where I write all my essays.
DHH
And then I moved to Linux, and I couldn’t get iA Writer, so I moved over to this other tool called Typora. It was a piece of shareware, and it had a lot of features I just didn’t need. And about six weeks, seven weeks ago, I thought, “Do you know what? I only need 5% of Typora,” which is already a basic app. I literally told the agent to get going, that I wanted it written in C++ and Qt, because that would fit well with the aesthetic of what I was building with Quattro. And in, I think, about 20 minutes, it had the first version. I started using it, and it wasn’t quite right. Within two days, I’d given up Typora, and I wrote and have written all of my essays since that moment in Omawrite.
And then I moved to Linux, and I couldn’t get iA Writer, so I moved over to this other tool called Typora. It was a piece of shareware, and it had a lot of features I just didn’t need. And about six weeks, seven weeks ago, I thought, “Do you know what? I only need 5% of Typora,” which is already a basic app. I literally told the agent to get going, that I wanted it written in C++ and Qt, because that would fit well with the aesthetic of what I was building with Quattro. And in, I think, about 20 minutes, it had the first version. I started using it, and it wasn’t quite right. Within two days, I’d given up Typora, and I wrote and have written all of my essays since that moment in Omawrite.
AI impact on open source
Lex Fridman
Can I ask for your advice and your vision about something? So what I find with agents, you can actually write something like a replacement for Typora that is perfectly customized to you, to your needs- … with just one user in mind. And then there’s a version of that that starts with one user in mind but expands to a larger audience. So I’ve actually written a large number of software just for me, and I find it easier to do and better to get my situation done. For example, I have a video editor I’ve written, which is very easy to do just for me.
Can I ask for your advice and your vision about something? So what I find with agents, you can actually write something like a replacement for Typora that is perfectly customized to you, to your needs- … with just one user in mind. And then there’s a version of that that starts with one user in mind but expands to a larger audience. So I’ve actually written a large number of software just for me, and I find it easier to do and better to get my situation done. For example, I have a video editor I’ve written, which is very easy to do just for me.
Lex Fridman
I’ve never, unlike you, built something that’s used by a large number of people, and I find that a bit scary and intimidating. So, like, at this, with this agentic age, how do you take a step to actually build something that solves your problem, which I think is a beautiful way to build, but also expand it to actually useful for other people? Like, is there advice you can give, and do you also see the problem of how easy it is to just build a tool for yourself?
I’ve never, unlike you, built something that’s used by a large number of people, and I find that a bit scary and intimidating. So, like, at this, with this agentic age, how do you take a step to actually build something that solves your problem, which I think is a beautiful way to build, but also expand it to actually useful for other people? Like, is there advice you can give, and do you also see the problem of how easy it is to just build a tool for yourself?
DHH
Yes, but it is simpler than you think. By the time you’re done building the tool for yourself, you simply tell your agent to put it on GitHub. You don’t even have to do anything else. It will figure out how to put that repo on GitHub. It’ll write a nice README. It’ll start using GitHub releases so that you can track things. It’ll actually be a better software maintainer than you could ever be- … because it is far more patient, it is far more diligent in doing the drudgery of managing open source software than you are.
Yes, but it is simpler than you think. By the time you’re done building the tool for yourself, you simply tell your agent to put it on GitHub. You don’t even have to do anything else. It will figure out how to put that repo on GitHub. It’ll write a nice README. It’ll start using GitHub releases so that you can track things. It’ll actually be a better software maintainer than you could ever be- … because it is far more patient, it is far more diligent in doing the drudgery of managing open source software than you are.
DHH
And you can simply get on with the joy of using the software that you built and evolving it as you see fit. Now, this gets into the big argument we’ve been having in open source for a while. Are AI contributions good or bad for the maintainer? There’s a lot of maintainers right now who are quite upset about the fact that they’re suddenly getting a huge influx of pull requests, of contributions from people who may not be the best programmers or programmers at all- … towards their software. I look at that argument and go, “Are you kidding me?” Here is a vein of free contributions that you can take or don’t take, but you’re complaining about the fact that they’re there? It sounds straight out of- My steak is too juicy and my lobster too buttery. What are you complaining about?
And you can simply get on with the joy of using the software that you built and evolving it as you see fit. Now, this gets into the big argument we’ve been having in open source for a while. Are AI contributions good or bad for the maintainer? There’s a lot of maintainers right now who are quite upset about the fact that they’re suddenly getting a huge influx of pull requests, of contributions from people who may not be the best programmers or programmers at all- … towards their software. I look at that argument and go, “Are you kidding me?” Here is a vein of free contributions that you can take or don’t take, but you’re complaining about the fact that they’re there? It sounds straight out of- My steak is too juicy and my lobster too buttery. What are you complaining about?
DHH
This is the most amazing thing. This is what we proclamated for so long was going to be the magic of open source, that we could all contribute to it, but it was, of course, never true. There was only a small subset of people who contribute to open source, and that was the very highly skilled wizards. So this is a bit of a reformation moment. We had this disintermediation between us and the computer, and it was this class of clerics and priests called programmers, and suddenly they’re being disintermediated here by was it the 95 theses by Luther in 1500s, nailing them to the door? And one of those was very clearly about the intermediation, that you should have direct access to the higher intelligence.
This is the most amazing thing. This is what we proclamated for so long was going to be the magic of open source, that we could all contribute to it, but it was, of course, never true. There was only a small subset of people who contribute to open source, and that was the very highly skilled wizards. So this is a bit of a reformation moment. We had this disintermediation between us and the computer, and it was this class of clerics and priests called programmers, and suddenly they’re being disintermediated here by was it the 95 theses by Luther in 1500s, nailing them to the door? And one of those was very clearly about the intermediation, that you should have direct access to the higher intelligence.
Lex Fridman
But don’t you need the wizards to keep a high bar of excellence in the code base?
But don’t you need the wizards to keep a high bar of excellence in the code base?
DHH
100% you do, which is also something that’s always been true about open source, which is the second argument that really grinds me. I’ve been running open source projects for 25 years. I have literally looked at the output of thousands, if not tens of thousands of programmers. I feel like I have the statistical basis to assert that most programmers, they suck. And I don’t mean that in the way it sounds.
100% you do, which is also something that’s always been true about open source, which is the second argument that really grinds me. I’ve been running open source projects for 25 years. I have literally looked at the output of thousands, if not tens of thousands of programmers. I feel like I have the statistical basis to assert that most programmers, they suck. And I don’t mean that in the way it sounds.
DHH
That was why I paused for a hot second here. I mean, they suck in the sense that they don’t write the code I want to have written. They don’t prepare their bug reports with all the relevant information. They don’t detail their pull requests with the why. They don’t bother to fill in needed code comments. They don’t double-check their work. They don’t write unit tests. They don’t do all of these things it takes to create good software. But do you know who’ll do all that stuff? Agents, if you tell them to. They’re very diligent at following your instructions, most of the time, sometimes to a fault. But it actually means that if you take the median programmer and their pull requests towards an average open source project, they’re already getting outclassed by agents.
That was why I paused for a hot second here. I mean, they suck in the sense that they don’t write the code I want to have written. They don’t prepare their bug reports with all the relevant information. They don’t detail their pull requests with the why. They don’t bother to fill in needed code comments. They don’t double-check their work. They don’t write unit tests. They don’t do all of these things it takes to create good software. But do you know who’ll do all that stuff? Agents, if you tell them to. They’re very diligent at following your instructions, most of the time, sometimes to a fault. But it actually means that if you take the median programmer and their pull requests towards an average open source project, they’re already getting outclassed by agents.
DHH
I would rather get an agent-written pull request to one of my projects than I’d get one written by a human, and it’s not just because the quality’s better. It’s also because I feel a lot less bad if I just reject it. You didn’t even write it, so I can simply look at what your agent wrote on your behalf and go, “Eh, don’t want it.” That’s always been true in open source, and in fact, I think this is one of the problems with open source maintainers. They have way too much ball of neuroticism and anxiety that requires them to look upon any contribution as an obligation on their part to do everything to get that to land in the code base. That’s not true at all.
I would rather get an agent-written pull request to one of my projects than I’d get one written by a human, and it’s not just because the quality’s better. It’s also because I feel a lot less bad if I just reject it. You didn’t even write it, so I can simply look at what your agent wrote on your behalf and go, “Eh, don’t want it.” That’s always been true in open source, and in fact, I think this is one of the problems with open source maintainers. They have way too much ball of neuroticism and anxiety that requires them to look upon any contribution as an obligation on their part to do everything to get that to land in the code base. That’s not true at all.
DHH
You can simply say, “No,” or even better, you can say, “No thank you.” And if you get into the mode of realizing that your project is allowed to exist and evolve according to your vision, according to your roadmap, it becomes so much easier in the agentic age to decline the contributions you don’t want because you don’t even inconvenience or hurt the feelings of a human. It’s just a clanker, and the clanker won’t mind. In fact, the producers of clankers, the labs, love when you spend tokens in vain. They get paid just the same. So, in my opinion, this is the absolute best time to ever have been an open source software maintainer.
You can simply say, “No,” or even better, you can say, “No thank you.” And if you get into the mode of realizing that your project is allowed to exist and evolve according to your vision, according to your roadmap, it becomes so much easier in the agentic age to decline the contributions you don’t want because you don’t even inconvenience or hurt the feelings of a human. It’s just a clanker, and the clanker won’t mind. In fact, the producers of clankers, the labs, love when you spend tokens in vain. They get paid just the same. So, in my opinion, this is the absolute best time to ever have been an open source software maintainer.
DHH
Not only do we get this wealth of glorious pull requests made by agents with all the boxes ticked, we also get to tap into a creativity of people who did not have access to contribute to a project before. I’ve been running the Omarchy project now for a little over a year, and in the last three months working on Quattro, I have merged over 1,000 pull requests. Quite a lot of those pull requests were written by people who were not classical programmers, or were programmers in other domains, not Linux operating system or distribution development. They were able to contribute their good ideas because of agents, and I got to cherry-pick the very best of that-
Not only do we get this wealth of glorious pull requests made by agents with all the boxes ticked, we also get to tap into a creativity of people who did not have access to contribute to a project before. I’ve been running the Omarchy project now for a little over a year, and in the last three months working on Quattro, I have merged over 1,000 pull requests. Quite a lot of those pull requests were written by people who were not classical programmers, or were programmers in other domains, not Linux operating system or distribution development. They were able to contribute their good ideas because of agents, and I got to cherry-pick the very best of that-
DHH
… because it was there. Otherwise, those ideas would just have lived inside their heads. Again, is that not the purpose of open source, that we tap into the collective intelligence and creativity of the whole goddamn planet, and we channel that towards a commons where we all benefit from the combined efforts of everyone? Now, there’s currently, I think, about 400 unmerged pull requests on Omarchy, about double what it was a week ago. So the acceleration is real, but so are the tools. I’m not reviewing every pull request anymore. I haven’t been reviewing them for quite some time now. I have the agents- … review them for me- … and then they will give me a summary about whether something is ready for the decision, the human decision. Should we merge or should we not merge?
… because it was there. Otherwise, those ideas would just have lived inside their heads. Again, is that not the purpose of open source, that we tap into the collective intelligence and creativity of the whole goddamn planet, and we channel that towards a commons where we all benefit from the combined efforts of everyone? Now, there’s currently, I think, about 400 unmerged pull requests on Omarchy, about double what it was a week ago. So the acceleration is real, but so are the tools. I’m not reviewing every pull request anymore. I haven’t been reviewing them for quite some time now. I have the agents- … review them for me- … and then they will give me a summary about whether something is ready for the decision, the human decision. Should we merge or should we not merge?
DHH
I don’t need to look at all the pull requests that are either wrong, duplicated, bad. An agent can sort that chaff away from me. I just get to look at the pearls- … the good ideas that are ready to go, the bug fixes that the agent has validated in a VM on my behalf. All the drudgery of replicating and managing open source projects is evaporating at lightning speed, and we are left with the golden juicy parts, the bone marrow of software development- … deciding what should this thing do and where should it go?
I don’t need to look at all the pull requests that are either wrong, duplicated, bad. An agent can sort that chaff away from me. I just get to look at the pearls- … the good ideas that are ready to go, the bug fixes that the agent has validated in a VM on my behalf. All the drudgery of replicating and managing open source projects is evaporating at lightning speed, and we are left with the golden juicy parts, the bone marrow of software development- … deciding what should this thing do and where should it go?
Lex Fridman
Do you think the good ideas, ultimately the kernel of the good ideas originated in the human mind, so the individual contributors Like, can it be done by agents, or is the PR ultimately requires a human idea? Like how to improve Omarchy, all those incoming… Or can it all just be a pool of agents?
Do you think the good ideas, ultimately the kernel of the good ideas originated in the human mind, so the individual contributors Like, can it be done by agents, or is the PR ultimately requires a human idea? Like how to improve Omarchy, all those incoming… Or can it all just be a pool of agents?
DHH
That was the mode and the way I was thinking about agents in the first agentic age from November 24 to February 28. I thought all the ideas would originate with the humans. They would tell their agents what to build, and off they went. I don’t think that’s true anymore at all. I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe, ideas coming out of models so great that it makes me humble- … as a person who otherwise prides himself on having good ideas. The agents are incredibly capable of creative thought, and folks who are still stuck in the analysis that agents are parrots- … just regurgitating the ideas that are already there, are delusional about the progress that’s been made in the last six to nine months.
That was the mode and the way I was thinking about agents in the first agentic age from November 24 to February 28. I thought all the ideas would originate with the humans. They would tell their agents what to build, and off they went. I don’t think that’s true anymore at all. I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe, ideas coming out of models so great that it makes me humble- … as a person who otherwise prides himself on having good ideas. The agents are incredibly capable of creative thought, and folks who are still stuck in the analysis that agents are parrots- … just regurgitating the ideas that are already there, are delusional about the progress that’s been made in the last six to nine months.
Building Omarchy Linux distro
Lex Fridman
So some people listening to you right now will say DHH is suffering from the old case of AI psychosis. Can you steel man the case that you are in fact experiencing in a state of delusion, like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, and can you argue against it?
So some people listening to you right now will say DHH is suffering from the old case of AI psychosis. Can you steel man the case that you are in fact experiencing in a state of delusion, like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, and can you argue against it?
DHH
I’m in a state of delirium. That’s the state I’m in. Because I have been working with computers for 40 years, and I’ve never seen the things that I’ve seen in just the last two months.
I’m in a state of delirium. That’s the state I’m in. Because I have been working with computers for 40 years, and I’ve never seen the things that I’ve seen in just the last two months.
DHH
A whole career, a whole life dedicating to the love of computers as my main focus for the working hours and then some, suddenly completely upended, suddenly completely rewritten. Of course I’m delirious. Who looking at this reality is not? If you are not delirious or at the very least very excited… Actually, I guess that’s not even true. If you’re not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that’s the delusion. That’s the psychosis. The psychosis is believing that the world is barely different. We just have some electronic parrots reciting things to us. Now, in my opinion, the reason this argument is actually brought up is because people are not able to see the fruits of the progress. That goes to your point earlier. Where is the amazing software?
A whole career, a whole life dedicating to the love of computers as my main focus for the working hours and then some, suddenly completely upended, suddenly completely rewritten. Of course I’m delirious. Who looking at this reality is not? If you are not delirious or at the very least very excited… Actually, I guess that’s not even true. If you’re not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that’s the delusion. That’s the psychosis. The psychosis is believing that the world is barely different. We just have some electronic parrots reciting things to us. Now, in my opinion, the reason this argument is actually brought up is because people are not able to see the fruits of the progress. That goes to your point earlier. Where is the amazing software?
DHH
Why isn’t American GDP running at 12% year over year? First of all, give it a minute. It hasn’t even been a year, goddammit. But second of all, I feel on my own account, I have actually brought the pudding. Omarchy Quattro launched on Friday. It’s been downloaded by tens of thousands of people. And they like it. They like it a lot.
Why isn’t American GDP running at 12% year over year? First of all, give it a minute. It hasn’t even been a year, goddammit. But second of all, I feel on my own account, I have actually brought the pudding. Omarchy Quattro launched on Friday. It’s been downloaded by tens of thousands of people. And they like it. They like it a lot.
Lex Fridman
We should mention that going to Perplexity here, Omarchy is a highly opinionated Arch Linux-based desktop distribution centered on the Hyprland Wayland tiling compositor. It was created by David Heinemeier Hansson, DHH, as a polished developer workstation set up with a cohesive visual style and many everyday tools already configured.
We should mention that going to Perplexity here, Omarchy is a highly opinionated Arch Linux-based desktop distribution centered on the Hyprland Wayland tiling compositor. It was created by David Heinemeier Hansson, DHH, as a polished developer workstation set up with a cohesive visual style and many everyday tools already configured.
DHH
Let me put it. Omarchy is a beautiful, modern, and opinionated Linux system. It’s an alternative operating system to macOS and Windows, and it’s freaking amazing.
Let me put it. Omarchy is a beautiful, modern, and opinionated Linux system. It’s an alternative operating system to macOS and Windows, and it’s freaking amazing.
Lex Fridman
And the Quattro thing is you’re pushing towards the age of agents.
And the Quattro thing is you’re pushing towards the age of agents.
DHH
That’s right. That’s the latest version that we just dropped out, which is also funny. The Omarchy project is only a year old and a little bit. I started it last summer in between sessions at the 24 Hours of Le Mans-
That’s right. That’s the latest version that we just dropped out, which is also funny. The Omarchy project is only a year old and a little bit. I started it last summer in between sessions at the 24 Hours of Le Mans-
DHH
… where I had watched one too many YouTube videos on Linux Ricing and got bitten by that bug. Started working on this second iteration of my attempt at creating a better Linux operating system. The first iteration we talked about last time was called Omakub, was built on top of an existing system called Ubuntu, and it was fine. But the ambition I was able to pour into the new version, Omarchy, because I started seven layers deeper down the stack, was completely different. But it was still done in a pre-agentic world. I wrote all those bash scripts by hand in the beginning, and then I got to see the midway point where things changed over.
… where I had watched one too many YouTube videos on Linux Ricing and got bitten by that bug. Started working on this second iteration of my attempt at creating a better Linux operating system. The first iteration we talked about last time was called Omakub, was built on top of an existing system called Ubuntu, and it was fine. But the ambition I was able to pour into the new version, Omarchy, because I started seven layers deeper down the stack, was completely different. But it was still done in a pre-agentic world. I wrote all those bash scripts by hand in the beginning, and then I got to see the midway point where things changed over.
DHH
I did a couple of versions of Omarchy that had partial agent acceleration, and then three months ago, it was full throttle, 100%, everything is written by agents but steered by me. And that just ended up being a very different experience and a very different operating system because I was suddenly granted a limitless ceiling on my ambition. I could look at any feature in Windows, on Mac, on other Linux systems and say, “I want that,” and the agents would deliver. So everything I wanted was suddenly within reach, which meant that I got a little delirious. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, “You can have whatever you want. Every feature you’ve ever dreamed of in an operating system-
I did a couple of versions of Omarchy that had partial agent acceleration, and then three months ago, it was full throttle, 100%, everything is written by agents but steered by me. And that just ended up being a very different experience and a very different operating system because I was suddenly granted a limitless ceiling on my ambition. I could look at any feature in Windows, on Mac, on other Linux systems and say, “I want that,” and the agents would deliver. So everything I wanted was suddenly within reach, which meant that I got a little delirious. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, “You can have whatever you want. Every feature you’ve ever dreamed of in an operating system-
DHH
… I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it’s gonna take me two hours.”
… I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it’s gonna take me two hours.”
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Have you seen Requiem for a Dream, the movie? So there’s a drug-like effect here. I find it personally– We’ll talk about many levels of this, but it is overwhelming how much power is placed in our hands so suddenly, and it’s very hard to know, it’s like with “The Hobbit” or something, what to do with it, and I find myself truly overwhelmed with the multitasking on the verge of almost burnt out. Super excited about so many things, but ultimately looking back, you want to focus on one thing and really ship.
Mm-hmm. Have you seen Requiem for a Dream, the movie? So there’s a drug-like effect here. I find it personally– We’ll talk about many levels of this, but it is overwhelming how much power is placed in our hands so suddenly, and it’s very hard to know, it’s like with “The Hobbit” or something, what to do with it, and I find myself truly overwhelmed with the multitasking on the verge of almost burnt out. Super excited about so many things, but ultimately looking back, you want to focus on one thing and really ship.
DHH
I don’t have that sense. I don’t have the sense of overwhelm. I don’t have the sense of dread. I don’t have the sense of distortion because I have a mission. I’m going somewhere, and therefore, I can channel all this new power towards-
I don’t have that sense. I don’t have the sense of overwhelm. I don’t have the sense of dread. I don’t have the sense of distortion because I have a mission. I’m going somewhere, and therefore, I can channel all this new power towards-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s wonderful.
Yeah, it’s wonderful.
DHH
a singular goal and outcome, creating the perfect computer. And therefore, all my investigations with AI are focused towards that end. Now, I also have a day job. And we also use agents there, and that’s also targeted towards sort of specific outcomes. But with the Omarchy experience, I got to tap in straight in the back of my head and increase the bandwidth between ideas arriving in my brain and software emerging on the screen. It was like going from dial-up- … to fiber. I think on your podcast, Elon talked about the actual human bandwidth-
a singular goal and outcome, creating the perfect computer. And therefore, all my investigations with AI are focused towards that end. Now, I also have a day job. And we also use agents there, and that’s also targeted towards sort of specific outcomes. But with the Omarchy experience, I got to tap in straight in the back of my head and increase the bandwidth between ideas arriving in my brain and software emerging on the screen. It was like going from dial-up- … to fiber. I think on your podcast, Elon talked about the actual human bandwidth-
DHH
… that Neuralink and other projects are trying to accelerate. Like, the bandwidth we’re communicating over right now is quite low because we’re limited by our cognition. We’re limited by the rate of speech. You’re not limited by those things when you’re working with a swarm of agents. Now, let me caveat this by saying, if I’d heard myself talk like this-
… that Neuralink and other projects are trying to accelerate. Like, the bandwidth we’re communicating over right now is quite low because we’re limited by our cognition. We’re limited by the rate of speech. You’re not limited by those things when you’re working with a swarm of agents. Now, let me caveat this by saying, if I’d heard myself talk like this-
DHH
nine months ago, I would probably have used the label AI psychosis. I think it would be fitting because nine months ago when people were talking like this, they weren’t shipping, and I think that’s the ultimate difference, that there were people who saw this early. I was not actually that early. As we’ve talked about, I was rather skeptical, and I was using AI in certain ways, but I was not the first person who downloaded Claude Code. I think Boris released that in end of February. I don’t think I installed Claude Code until September. So there was about six months there where pioneers saw these glimmers of what the future was gonna look like. It wasn’t there yet because the intelligence wasn’t there. The harnesses weren’t there, but they could see the glimmers. I couldn’t.
nine months ago, I would probably have used the label AI psychosis. I think it would be fitting because nine months ago when people were talking like this, they weren’t shipping, and I think that’s the ultimate difference, that there were people who saw this early. I was not actually that early. As we’ve talked about, I was rather skeptical, and I was using AI in certain ways, but I was not the first person who downloaded Claude Code. I think Boris released that in end of February. I don’t think I installed Claude Code until September. So there was about six months there where pioneers saw these glimmers of what the future was gonna look like. It wasn’t there yet because the intelligence wasn’t there. The harnesses weren’t there, but they could see the glimmers. I couldn’t.
DHH
Tobi, Tobi Lutke, the CEO of Shopify and now my partner in crime on this Omarchy project in part, he’s gotten pilled with Omarchy as well. He saw these things very early, and he tried to tell me, and I wasn’t seeing it. I was not seeing what he was seeing.
Tobi, Tobi Lutke, the CEO of Shopify and now my partner in crime on this Omarchy project in part, he’s gotten pilled with Omarchy as well. He saw these things very early, and he tried to tell me, and I wasn’t seeing it. I was not seeing what he was seeing.
Lex Fridman
You were a hater.
You were a hater.
DHH
Yes. I was still on Earth. And he was… He had already boarded the rocket and was heading towards space. I remember actually reading his memo to the company, the AI memo, and thinking, “Ah, seems a little much.” Like, you’re making a big deal out of something that I cannot yet feel is a tangible thing.
Yes. I was still on Earth. And he was… He had already boarded the rocket and was heading towards space. I remember actually reading his memo to the company, the AI memo, and thinking, “Ah, seems a little much.” Like, you’re making a big deal out of something that I cannot yet feel is a tangible thing.
DHH
Because where’s the output of this? I try using it. It writes code I don’t like. It wants to interrupt me all the time. Where are you getting this from? So I get it. I totally get it. If you’ve not seen what the current quality of intelligence can produce, of course you’re gonna look at someone and go like, “They sound a little nutty,” because all your experience up until this point would tell you that they are nutty. Because if you look at the history of computer programming, for the last 40, 50 years, people have been promising that regular people could write code just by talking. We’re gonna have fourth generation languages.
Because where’s the output of this? I try using it. It writes code I don’t like. It wants to interrupt me all the time. Where are you getting this from? So I get it. I totally get it. If you’ve not seen what the current quality of intelligence can produce, of course you’re gonna look at someone and go like, “They sound a little nutty,” because all your experience up until this point would tell you that they are nutty. Because if you look at the history of computer programming, for the last 40, 50 years, people have been promising that regular people could write code just by talking. We’re gonna have fourth generation languages.
DHH
Lisp was once upon a time presented, Smalltalk was presented as these environments that would let regular people write their own applications, and none of it came true in the sense beyond, like, Microsoft Access databases or Excel spreadsheets. Those are end user programming environments, but it’s nothing like what we’re able to do now. And then, I mean, I’m not even talking about end user. I’m talking as me, someone who’s been programming for 25 years, seeing the output and the acceleration and the quality and then shipping it, and I think that’s what’s gonna change the entire conversation quite quickly.
Lisp was once upon a time presented, Smalltalk was presented as these environments that would let regular people write their own applications, and none of it came true in the sense beyond, like, Microsoft Access databases or Excel spreadsheets. Those are end user programming environments, but it’s nothing like what we’re able to do now. And then, I mean, I’m not even talking about end user. I’m talking as me, someone who’s been programming for 25 years, seeing the output and the acceleration and the quality and then shipping it, and I think that’s what’s gonna change the entire conversation quite quickly.
DHH
The few laggards who are still on the fence about whether this is actually useful, who are still trapped in a meme from early ’25 about mechanical parrots, they’re simply going to be overwhelmed by the evidence that’s about to flood over them.
The few laggards who are still on the fence about whether this is actually useful, who are still trapped in a meme from early ’25 about mechanical parrots, they’re simply going to be overwhelmed by the evidence that’s about to flood over them.
Vibe coding vs agentic engineering
Lex Fridman
So I hope to see projects like Omarchy, several of them that, like, really show agent first.
So I hope to see projects like Omarchy, several of them that, like, really show agent first.
DHH
It’s coming. All of it is coming.
It’s coming. All of it is coming.
Lex Fridman
In the spaces, in the silly spaces that I already mentioned, like video editing, all these kinds of apps that are like Typora- … this kind of stuff.
In the spaces, in the silly spaces that I already mentioned, like video editing, all these kinds of apps that are like Typora- … this kind of stuff.
DHH
It’s gonna come, and I’ve already seen the early inklings of this. One of the really neat features about Omarchy is that it has a far more robust plugin system that allows you to extend your operating system and rewrite it really in terms of its user interface and its panels and its features by creating your own plugins that can be cloned off of tools we ship in the box. For example, say you want a different calendar. Omarchy ships with a calendar. You click the little clock. It pops up a calendar, and it doesn’t have iCal support, for example. It doesn’t consume your appointments. There’s about 17 implementations of that already, and in three days, we had 330 plugins on the Omarchy plugin marketplace. I have never seen growth like that with any project I’ve ever been involved in.
It’s gonna come, and I’ve already seen the early inklings of this. One of the really neat features about Omarchy is that it has a far more robust plugin system that allows you to extend your operating system and rewrite it really in terms of its user interface and its panels and its features by creating your own plugins that can be cloned off of tools we ship in the box. For example, say you want a different calendar. Omarchy ships with a calendar. You click the little clock. It pops up a calendar, and it doesn’t have iCal support, for example. It doesn’t consume your appointments. There’s about 17 implementations of that already, and in three days, we had 330 plugins on the Omarchy plugin marketplace. I have never seen growth like that with any project I’ve ever been involved in.
DHH
I’ve never seen participation that broadly. I’ve never seen that many people be able to create software that’s meaningful for them—also be usable for others so quickly. All of it is driven by the fact that Omarchy ships a set of skills that tells any agent you bring to it how to create extensions to the operating system, and therefore affording you the vision of the true malleable… I was about to say agentic. I hate that fucking word. And the reason in part I hate that word is, first of all, it’s become marketing slop speak- … at this point. Like, it’s just slapped onto everything. I wish we had a different word that just meant AI doing stuff.
I’ve never seen participation that broadly. I’ve never seen that many people be able to create software that’s meaningful for them—also be usable for others so quickly. All of it is driven by the fact that Omarchy ships a set of skills that tells any agent you bring to it how to create extensions to the operating system, and therefore affording you the vision of the true malleable… I was about to say agentic. I hate that fucking word. And the reason in part I hate that word is, first of all, it’s become marketing slop speak- … at this point. Like, it’s just slapped onto everything. I wish we had a different word that just meant AI doing stuff.
Lex Fridman
Vibe coding feels wrong, too.
Vibe coding feels wrong, too.
DHH
It does, because vibe coding to me smells exactly like script kiddies did in the early 2000s. People applying PHP scripts they just downloaded offline that they don’t understand anything of. And while, I mean, that’s true in the sense that much of the vibe coding, including my own vibe coded projects, and as I just mentioned, I have several. I’ve written things in C++. I’ve written things in Rust. Rust—I hate Rust with a passion. Rust to me is like pouring acid in my eyes when I have to look at the code.
It does, because vibe coding to me smells exactly like script kiddies did in the early 2000s. People applying PHP scripts they just downloaded offline that they don’t understand anything of. And while, I mean, that’s true in the sense that much of the vibe coding, including my own vibe coded projects, and as I just mentioned, I have several. I’ve written things in C++. I’ve written things in Rust. Rust—I hate Rust with a passion. Rust to me is like pouring acid in my eyes when I have to look at the code.
Lex Fridman
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why do you hate Rust?
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why do you hate Rust?
DHH
It is, in my opinion, the ugliest programming language-
It is, in my opinion, the ugliest programming language-
Lex Fridman
Oh
Oh
DHH
… that has been invented-
… that has been invented-
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
DHH
… in probably the last 40 years.
… in probably the last 40 years.
Lex Fridman
So it’s the opposite of Rails and Ruby.
So it’s the opposite of Rails and Ruby.
DHH
It’s the opposite. But-
It’s the opposite. But-
Lex Fridman
You’ve written it
You’ve written it
DHH
… I’ve written applications in Rust because the output of Rust is actually amazing. The memory safety, the fact that it’s a system language, the fact that it’s highly efficient and so forth is incredible. So Rust, to me, can both be the most repugnant programming language ever devised for human consumption and a wonderful platform for agentic engineering. These two truths can coexist easily in my head.
… I’ve written applications in Rust because the output of Rust is actually amazing. The memory safety, the fact that it’s a system language, the fact that it’s highly efficient and so forth is incredible. So Rust, to me, can both be the most repugnant programming language ever devised for human consumption and a wonderful platform for agentic engineering. These two truths can coexist easily in my head.
Lex Fridman
Do you think that there can be a point at which we can just call agentic engineering programming? Can we just change what programming means? ‘Cause who’s actually going to be programming the old-school way in a few months?
Do you think that there can be a point at which we can just call agentic engineering programming? Can we just change what programming means? ‘Cause who’s actually going to be programming the old-school way in a few months?
DHH
I don’t think we should reuse the term because for me, programming implies an understanding of certain primitives, loops, conditions, variables. All the constructs of programming languages are what constitutes programming itself, not the creation of programs. Because you could say in the pre-agentic era, well, your CEO is programming. He’s hiring a bunch of programmers, he’s telling them what to do, and out comes software that he can sell.
I don’t think we should reuse the term because for me, programming implies an understanding of certain primitives, loops, conditions, variables. All the constructs of programming languages are what constitutes programming itself, not the creation of programs. Because you could say in the pre-agentic era, well, your CEO is programming. He’s hiring a bunch of programmers, he’s telling them what to do, and out comes software that he can sell.
DHH
Eh, I don’t think most people would call that CEO a programmer, and I don’t think we should call the vibe coder a programmer either. And vibe coding, if we define it here, is you tell an agent to build software for you. You do not look at the implementation. That, to me, is what separates vibe coding from programming or, let’s say, agent-accelerated development.
Eh, I don’t think most people would call that CEO a programmer, and I don’t think we should call the vibe coder a programmer either. And vibe coding, if we define it here, is you tell an agent to build software for you. You do not look at the implementation. That, to me, is what separates vibe coding from programming or, let’s say, agent-accelerated development.
Lex Fridman
But don’t you think, so to push back a little bit, don’t you think a programmer, old-school programmer, you, doing agentic engineering is a different kind of agentic engineering than a non-programmer doing agentic engineering? What I mean is, if you know what a for loop is, if you know what function programming is, if you know some of the basic good principles of software engineering, the way you do natural language-based agentic engineering will be different and more systematic, and the scale and the variety of things you can actually build is much bigger than a vibe coder.
But don’t you think, so to push back a little bit, don’t you think a programmer, old-school programmer, you, doing agentic engineering is a different kind of agentic engineering than a non-programmer doing agentic engineering? What I mean is, if you know what a for loop is, if you know what function programming is, if you know some of the basic good principles of software engineering, the way you do natural language-based agentic engineering will be different and more systematic, and the scale and the variety of things you can actually build is much bigger than a vibe coder.
DHH
I’m just gonna extend the pro case here a little bit just for the sake of the argument.
I’m just gonna extend the pro case here a little bit just for the sake of the argument.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
DHH
I actually think for a while it was to my deficit to know as much as I know about programming because I was instructing the agents to do things as I prescribed them to do, and they were very good at that. And in the first agentic moment, let’s not call it an era, it was something that lasted three, three months. Moment… In the first agentic moment, that felt very productive. I could get more productivity out of telling the agents what to do in the way I would’ve done it, and I used all of my experience as a programmer to do just that. Then I was a little late on the next moment, and the next moment allowed me, allowed anyone, to describe outcomes- … to describe problems to the agents and get better solutions than if you had a programmer prescribe the path.
I actually think for a while it was to my deficit to know as much as I know about programming because I was instructing the agents to do things as I prescribed them to do, and they were very good at that. And in the first agentic moment, let’s not call it an era, it was something that lasted three, three months. Moment… In the first agentic moment, that felt very productive. I could get more productivity out of telling the agents what to do in the way I would’ve done it, and I used all of my experience as a programmer to do just that. Then I was a little late on the next moment, and the next moment allowed me, allowed anyone, to describe outcomes- … to describe problems to the agents and get better solutions than if you had a programmer prescribe the path.
Lex Fridman
See, okay, so we’re having fun arguing here. Well, so are you suggesting that there’s problems for which programmers are worse than non-programmers at agentic engineering?
See, okay, so we’re having fun arguing here. Well, so are you suggesting that there’s problems for which programmers are worse than non-programmers at agentic engineering?
DHH
100%. And the reason I say that, let’s define it here. The reason I say that is there’s a lot of programmers who are not very good product managers. Software is product management. What should it do? Who should it do it for? How should it do it? How should it look? What’s our priorities? What do we start with first? What does version one include? All of those skills are not easily or equally distributed across all programmers. And in the agentic era where you are letting an agent, an AI, do the implementation, these are the skills you need. And I happen to sit in both camps, and this is why I love this moment.
100%. And the reason I say that, let’s define it here. The reason I say that is there’s a lot of programmers who are not very good product managers. Software is product management. What should it do? Who should it do it for? How should it do it? How should it look? What’s our priorities? What do we start with first? What does version one include? All of those skills are not easily or equally distributed across all programmers. And in the agentic era where you are letting an agent, an AI, do the implementation, these are the skills you need. And I happen to sit in both camps, and this is why I love this moment.
DHH
I still get to live a little bit in the old world where I look at the full implementation because there are domains and areas where I feel that still brings value, and then I also live in the future. And as I said, when I created AmaWrite, I’ve not looked at a single line of that C++. I actually made it a point to myself that I was gonna treat it as an experiment. This is 100% a black box. I will treat it as though I was any other user who had opinions about how their digital typewriter should work, and therefore felt like it was a fair experiment as if a writer of any other sort who had opinions about how software should be done and how it should work.
I still get to live a little bit in the old world where I look at the full implementation because there are domains and areas where I feel that still brings value, and then I also live in the future. And as I said, when I created AmaWrite, I’ve not looked at a single line of that C++. I actually made it a point to myself that I was gonna treat it as an experiment. This is 100% a black box. I will treat it as though I was any other user who had opinions about how their digital typewriter should work, and therefore felt like it was a fair experiment as if a writer of any other sort who had opinions about how software should be done and how it should work.
DHH
As you mentioned, video editors who know exactly where they don’t like what Adobe Premiere’s doing and how it could be better, but don’t have the capacities to improve it- … how that could be.
As you mentioned, video editors who know exactly where they don’t like what Adobe Premiere’s doing and how it could be better, but don’t have the capacities to improve it- … how that could be.
Lex Fridman
The pushback, though, I think what programmers do well, good programmers do well, is systematic design, like think in terms of systems- … and rigor. And I think still, and probably for a long time to come, even natural language-based control of agentic systems will require a certain kind of rigor. Not overly structured rigor, but really explain very specifically the goals of the system, how to do the verification, what kind of security testing. You wanna do all those kinds of things. Although then to push back on that, the system will… should be smart longer term.
The pushback, though, I think what programmers do well, good programmers do well, is systematic design, like think in terms of systems- … and rigor. And I think still, and probably for a long time to come, even natural language-based control of agentic systems will require a certain kind of rigor. Not overly structured rigor, but really explain very specifically the goals of the system, how to do the verification, what kind of security testing. You wanna do all those kinds of things. Although then to push back on that, the system will… should be smart longer term.
DHH
I would’ve said the same thing six months ago.
I would’ve said the same thing six months ago.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, so this has changed.
Yeah, so this has changed.
DHH
And I think the same thing would’ve been true six months ago. What I have found since, especially even just the last few weeks of the agentically accelerated development of Mach-E, is that more often than not, I have the humility to recognize that the agent knows best.
And I think the same thing would’ve been true six months ago. What I have found since, especially even just the last few weeks of the agentically accelerated development of Mach-E, is that more often than not, I have the humility to recognize that the agent knows best.
Lex Fridman
You can legitimately say, “Make sure it’s secure.”
You can legitimately say, “Make sure it’s secure.”
DHH
Correct. And it would know more about what that entails. Now, you’re laughing-
Correct. And it would know more about what that entails. Now, you’re laughing-
Lex Fridman
What a crazy world.
What a crazy world.
DHH
… but it’s true. And in fact-
… but it’s true. And in fact-
Lex Fridman
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
DHH
… a good parallel to this is the AGENTS.md/CLAUDE.md files. There was a hot moment where it was all the rage about micro-optimizing that. Oh, you tell your agent this-
… a good parallel to this is the AGENTS.md/CLAUDE.md files. There was a hot moment where it was all the rage about micro-optimizing that. Oh, you tell your agent this-
DHH
… you tell your agent that, and you ended up with this huge file of instructions for your agent. One of the things that Boris, working on Claude Code, shared in an interview recently about Opus 5 was that the system prompt that they ship for Opus 5, and presumably also Fable, shrunk by 80% because the agent not only needed far less human instruction, it was actually being damaged by overly prescriptive humans. And any programmer who’s had a pointy-haired boss knows exactly what that is like. When the boss walks into the room, doesn’t know anything, starts telling you how to program, how to code. What do you do? You sulk. You write shittier code if you’re mandated to do things that are against your better judgment. Why would an agent not be the same?
… you tell your agent that, and you ended up with this huge file of instructions for your agent. One of the things that Boris, working on Claude Code, shared in an interview recently about Opus 5 was that the system prompt that they ship for Opus 5, and presumably also Fable, shrunk by 80% because the agent not only needed far less human instruction, it was actually being damaged by overly prescriptive humans. And any programmer who’s had a pointy-haired boss knows exactly what that is like. When the boss walks into the room, doesn’t know anything, starts telling you how to program, how to code. What do you do? You sulk. You write shittier code if you’re mandated to do things that are against your better judgment. Why would an agent not be the same?
Lex Fridman
Actually, to push back against myself, I do find the actual skill I’m currently developing, which along those lines is probably what everybody’s trying to develop, is not to overspecify things, is to get out of the system’s way.
Actually, to push back against myself, I do find the actual skill I’m currently developing, which along those lines is probably what everybody’s trying to develop, is not to overspecify things, is to get out of the system’s way.
DHH
Of course.
Of course.
Lex Fridman
Is to specify enough to provide a kinda high-level vision and guidance.
Is to specify enough to provide a kinda high-level vision and guidance.
DHH
It’s even better because you don’t even need that. The fundamental insight of modern software development came from the agile software development movement. In the late ’90s, early 2000s, a group of smart, honest, and brave people came together and said, “The way we’ve been trying to do software development for the last 40 to 50 years has not worked, will not work. We’ve been trying to specify upfront what software should look like. We thought that we could ask humans what they wanted, write it all down, apply our systems thinking and our rigor to a spec sheet, hand that spec sheet over to a group of programmers who would then implement just that, and everyone would be happy.” Well, guess what? No one was happy. Because no one knows what they want until they receive it.
It’s even better because you don’t even need that. The fundamental insight of modern software development came from the agile software development movement. In the late ’90s, early 2000s, a group of smart, honest, and brave people came together and said, “The way we’ve been trying to do software development for the last 40 to 50 years has not worked, will not work. We’ve been trying to specify upfront what software should look like. We thought that we could ask humans what they wanted, write it all down, apply our systems thinking and our rigor to a spec sheet, hand that spec sheet over to a group of programmers who would then implement just that, and everyone would be happy.” Well, guess what? No one was happy. Because no one knows what they want until they receive it.
DHH
You don’t know what a program should do until you play with it. So in the agentic age, you should resist the temptation to be overly specific upfront. Be as vague as you can to manifest something, then interact with the something. The way you arrive at good software is you write a little bit of software, and then you try to use it. It is in the process of using software that you discover what you really want. It’s where you discover what’s important and what’s not important. And agents are incredible at allowing you to bumble into this experience of realizing what you want because you don’t know what you want.
You don’t know what a program should do until you play with it. So in the agentic age, you should resist the temptation to be overly specific upfront. Be as vague as you can to manifest something, then interact with the something. The way you arrive at good software is you write a little bit of software, and then you try to use it. It is in the process of using software that you discover what you really want. It’s where you discover what’s important and what’s not important. And agents are incredible at allowing you to bumble into this experience of realizing what you want because you don’t know what you want.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. And I’ve actually done something similar to what you suggested, which is implement different designs and totally different implementations, and then I create HTML pages for myself, PHP pages, where I vote on what I like more and so on.
Mm-hmm. And I’ve actually done something similar to what you suggested, which is implement different designs and totally different implementations, and then I create HTML pages for myself, PHP pages, where I vote on what I like more and so on.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And it does this iterative thing, and it’s very nice and fun. The interaction with the agentic system, if you create a nice interface for yourself, it can be super fun, and you’re focusing on the design part and the most fun parts of the design part.
And it does this iterative thing, and it’s very nice and fun. The interaction with the agentic system, if you create a nice interface for yourself, it can be super fun, and you’re focusing on the design part and the most fun parts of the design part.
DHH
Correct. And this is what humans are really good at.
Correct. And this is what humans are really good at.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, taste.
Yeah, taste.
DHH
Differential evaluation. You give me three options, I pick one of them. Now, humans actually fall off a cliff if you give them 22 options. That’s the paradox of choice. But you give them three options, they very quickly within a split second will tell you what they like. There are all these ways that exploit the fact that humans will make these snap judgments that are actually pre-intellectual, right? Like, they’re coming from the gut, and then they arrive up in the brain, and the brain tries to rationalize why the gut said what it said. And if you’re willing to let go of some of that intellectual pre-processing rationalization and simply let your gut drive, the agentic age is a revelation.
Differential evaluation. You give me three options, I pick one of them. Now, humans actually fall off a cliff if you give them 22 options. That’s the paradox of choice. But you give them three options, they very quickly within a split second will tell you what they like. There are all these ways that exploit the fact that humans will make these snap judgments that are actually pre-intellectual, right? Like, they’re coming from the gut, and then they arrive up in the brain, and the brain tries to rationalize why the gut said what it said. And if you’re willing to let go of some of that intellectual pre-processing rationalization and simply let your gut drive, the agentic age is a revelation.
The end of manual programming
Lex Fridman
So this is a fascinating thing to ask you because you have sort of famously for a long time talked about, like, detailed chiseling of beautiful Rails Ruby code, and now you have switched in a matter of months to not doing that. So, like, what is your current setup look like? ‘Cause you’re, I assume, are still looking for the beauty, for the chiseling, for the crafting, but you’re just crafting in a different medium.
So this is a fascinating thing to ask you because you have sort of famously for a long time talked about, like, detailed chiseling of beautiful Rails Ruby code, and now you have switched in a matter of months to not doing that. So, like, what is your current setup look like? ‘Cause you’re, I assume, are still looking for the beauty, for the chiseling, for the crafting, but you’re just crafting in a different medium.
DHH
And at different levels of abstraction. When I’m working in Ruby code, and we have a lot of Ruby code because it’s in our entire business, and I’m asking agents to make changes to that code, I still sweat the details. What I’m coming to realize is that the economic payoff of that sweat is diminishing rapidly. The reason why I, for 25 years, was sweating every line of code so judiciously was because I knew the payoff of keeping an architecture coherent and malleable was software that could change and evolve-
And at different levels of abstraction. When I’m working in Ruby code, and we have a lot of Ruby code because it’s in our entire business, and I’m asking agents to make changes to that code, I still sweat the details. What I’m coming to realize is that the economic payoff of that sweat is diminishing rapidly. The reason why I, for 25 years, was sweating every line of code so judiciously was because I knew the payoff of keeping an architecture coherent and malleable was software that could change and evolve-
DHH
… quickly with a small team, and not exorbitant cost, and not introducing a bunch of bugs when you change one thing over the other. That was the driving economic argument for why you should write beautiful code, ’cause beautiful code is easier to understand, it is simpler, it is more malleable. That was premised on humans doing the modifications. I think it is an open question to which degree this still matters. Now, it does matter, and the reason I say that, at least for the moment, is that tokens are still scarce. At this moment in time, we are all token limited. Well, not all, but anyone who doesn’t have endless budgets are token limited.
… quickly with a small team, and not exorbitant cost, and not introducing a bunch of bugs when you change one thing over the other. That was the driving economic argument for why you should write beautiful code, ’cause beautiful code is easier to understand, it is simpler, it is more malleable. That was premised on humans doing the modifications. I think it is an open question to which degree this still matters. Now, it does matter, and the reason I say that, at least for the moment, is that tokens are still scarce. At this moment in time, we are all token limited. Well, not all, but anyone who doesn’t have endless budgets are token limited.
DHH
So therefore, there is great payoff to writing systems that agents have an easier time dealing with and evolving without having to relearn the entire context. Just like humans, if they can make iterations and changes to the code base without wrecking the architecture, they can make the next change just as cheaply as the last one. And this is the classic ball of mud where you end up with a system that’s a ball of mud-
So therefore, there is great payoff to writing systems that agents have an easier time dealing with and evolving without having to relearn the entire context. Just like humans, if they can make iterations and changes to the code base without wrecking the architecture, they can make the next change just as cheaply as the last one. And this is the classic ball of mud where you end up with a system that’s a ball of mud-
DHH
… because it’s just put together in a way where nothing is connected and it’s just a real mess, right? I’ve seen that with agents, and I’ve seen it in our own code bases where, again, the first PR is, like, mediocre of quality, and then if you add another PR on top of that, and then five more down the line, it’s not very good, right? So there’s still a payoff to that, but that payoff is premised on our current moment. I am now able to… And this is, by the way, where the AI psychosis really comes in, when you try to extrapolate what nine months from now it’s gonna look like. What two years from now it’s gonna look like. But as an intellectual experiment, I think the first computer I used was a Commodore 64.
… because it’s just put together in a way where nothing is connected and it’s just a real mess, right? I’ve seen that with agents, and I’ve seen it in our own code bases where, again, the first PR is, like, mediocre of quality, and then if you add another PR on top of that, and then five more down the line, it’s not very good, right? So there’s still a payoff to that, but that payoff is premised on our current moment. I am now able to… And this is, by the way, where the AI psychosis really comes in, when you try to extrapolate what nine months from now it’s gonna look like. What two years from now it’s gonna look like. But as an intellectual experiment, I think the first computer I used was a Commodore 64.
Lex Fridman
Me too. Cool.
Me too. Cool.
DHH
It had one megahertz CPU and 64K of memory. Everyone who wrote software for that machine internalized certain constraints. Well, all the constraints. That machine was nothing but constraints. If you put that programmer in a time machine and teleported him or her to 2026 and gave them a modern computer today and said, “Now write me a piece of software,” they’d be lost for a little bit because all their techniques and all their heuristics would simply be wrong. Or not wrong, because efficient software is still beautiful. They would be out of date with the value that they could create. The amount of optimization you have to apply for a one megahertz computer to produce a video game is just very different from what you have to apply today.
It had one megahertz CPU and 64K of memory. Everyone who wrote software for that machine internalized certain constraints. Well, all the constraints. That machine was nothing but constraints. If you put that programmer in a time machine and teleported him or her to 2026 and gave them a modern computer today and said, “Now write me a piece of software,” they’d be lost for a little bit because all their techniques and all their heuristics would simply be wrong. Or not wrong, because efficient software is still beautiful. They would be out of date with the value that they could create. The amount of optimization you have to apply for a one megahertz computer to produce a video game is just very different from what you have to apply today.
Lex Fridman
Just imagine that guy that was programming back then on a Commodore. Just remember, remember all those, like what programming felt like and what it meant, highly constrained resources- … how slow everything is.
Just imagine that guy that was programming back then on a Commodore. Just remember, remember all those, like what programming felt like and what it meant, highly constrained resources- … how slow everything is.
DHH
Beautiful in many ways. Beautiful.
Beautiful in many ways. Beautiful.
Lex Fridman
It’s chiseling. But-
It’s chiseling. But-
DHH
It-
It-
Lex Fridman
… imagine that person coming now.
… imagine that person coming now.
DHH
It’s romantic too, though. Let’s also imagine that. This is one of the things, whenever we bemoan modern car culture, for example, right? And then we think like, “Oh, wasn’t it better when we all had the horse-drawn carriages and so on?” No, it wasn’t. Do you know what New York smelled like when we used horses for transportation? It was an open sewer. They just shat everywhere.
It’s romantic too, though. Let’s also imagine that. This is one of the things, whenever we bemoan modern car culture, for example, right? And then we think like, “Oh, wasn’t it better when we all had the horse-drawn carriages and so on?” No, it wasn’t. Do you know what New York smelled like when we used horses for transportation? It was an open sewer. They just shat everywhere.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, but have you played Red Dead Redemption? You know how cool those cowboys were-
Yeah, but have you played Red Dead Redemption? You know how cool those cowboys were-
DHH
That is the way-
That is the way-
Lex Fridman
… on the horse?
… on the horse?
DHH
… to experience the nostalgic past, when you don’t get all the furry impulses and senses.
… to experience the nostalgic past, when you don’t get all the furry impulses and senses.
Lex Fridman
So basically programming, old school programming by hand is kinda like the cowboy culture that we romanticize and make movies about.
So basically programming, old school programming by hand is kinda like the cowboy culture that we romanticize and make movies about.
DHH
It’s already happening, the romanticization of handwritten code. And I have some of it because it was a very romantic era. I’m grateful to have been alive for 20 years of economically valuable handwritten code. That was a, that was a good time.
It’s already happening, the romanticization of handwritten code. And I have some of it because it was a very romantic era. I’m grateful to have been alive for 20 years of economically valuable handwritten code. That was a, that was a good time.
Lex Fridman
Where handwritten beautiful code was also valuable.
Where handwritten beautiful code was also valuable.
DHH
Correct. Because handwritten beautiful code exists as much today as it did yesterday. There are people who willfully write new video games for the Commodore 64, or for the Sega Mega Drive, or for other vintage consoles. In fact, one of my favorite video games of late is ModRetro’s. Do you know Palmer Luckey’s- … side geschäft, which is recreating old consoles. So he’s recreated the Game Boy.
Correct. Because handwritten beautiful code exists as much today as it did yesterday. There are people who willfully write new video games for the Commodore 64, or for the Sega Mega Drive, or for other vintage consoles. In fact, one of my favorite video games of late is ModRetro’s. Do you know Palmer Luckey’s- … side geschäft, which is recreating old consoles. So he’s recreated the Game Boy.
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
DHH
It’s amazing. Look it up. It’s really cool. But what’s even cooler than the fact that he recreated this hardware and the original chunkiness, but brought it up to date with sort of modern screens and so on, now they just put out the Nintendo 64 too. Incredible. Super cool. Wild attention to detail, input lag, and all the other things. But what’s also very cool, that one, I have to wave. That one right there, and hover over it, ’cause then you get to see what I’m talking about. That is the Chromatic-
It’s amazing. Look it up. It’s really cool. But what’s even cooler than the fact that he recreated this hardware and the original chunkiness, but brought it up to date with sort of modern screens and so on, now they just put out the Nintendo 64 too. Incredible. Super cool. Wild attention to detail, input lag, and all the other things. But what’s also very cool, that one, I have to wave. That one right there, and hover over it, ’cause then you get to see what I’m talking about. That is the Chromatic-
Lex Fridman
Ah
Ah
DHH
… Tetris re-implementation.
… Tetris re-implementation.
Lex Fridman
Wow.
Wow.
DHH
I played a lot of Tetris on the original Game Boy. Probably one of my top three favorite games of all time. And they rewrote it with one change. If you hit up, the brick slams. And that speeds up the game by about 400%. It is an incredible game, and it’s a new Game Boy game.
I played a lot of Tetris on the original Game Boy. Probably one of my top three favorite games of all time. And they rewrote it with one change. If you hit up, the brick slams. And that speeds up the game by about 400%. It is an incredible game, and it’s a new Game Boy game.
DHH
I think the Game Boy came out in ’89 or ’88. It’s a very old machine. The fact that there’s still people writing new old games is awesome, and the reason they do it in part, now here they’re doing it because they want Tetris, but there are people who do it just for the love of the constraints, for the love of the romantic notion of writing that. Just like there are people still riding around on horses, not to get places fast, but because they like the mode of transportation where it’s a literal biological being below you propelling you forward.
I think the Game Boy came out in ’89 or ’88. It’s a very old machine. The fact that there’s still people writing new old games is awesome, and the reason they do it in part, now here they’re doing it because they want Tetris, but there are people who do it just for the love of the constraints, for the love of the romantic notion of writing that. Just like there are people still riding around on horses, not to get places fast, but because they like the mode of transportation where it’s a literal biological being below you propelling you forward.
Lex Fridman
And also, we should say that that beautiful code is great training data. So in some sense, the beauty that we’ve built over a few decades-
And also, we should say that that beautiful code is great training data. So in some sense, the beauty that we’ve built over a few decades-
DHH
Yes
Yes
Lex Fridman
… continues.
… continues.
DHH
We gave birth to this moment. What a privilege, and I feel that very personally because I… Almost all of the code I’ve ever written is public code. The vast majority of my career has been dedicated to writing open source code, and therefore, some of that code, some of those beautiful lines are in the training set. And in fact, I’ve heard people do this when they write Ruby code. They ask the agent, “Write it like DHH would.”
We gave birth to this moment. What a privilege, and I feel that very personally because I… Almost all of the code I’ve ever written is public code. The vast majority of my career has been dedicated to writing open source code, and therefore, some of that code, some of those beautiful lines are in the training set. And in fact, I’ve heard people do this when they write Ruby code. They ask the agent, “Write it like DHH would.”
DHH
And they’re pleased with the result, and that does warm my heart a little bit, that I helped give birth to this moment in my tiny little small part. And anyone else who contributed open source code or any code at all that the agents have had access to over the last, well, entire time programming has been around as a discipline, is now part of these new agent overlords.
And they’re pleased with the result, and that does warm my heart a little bit, that I helped give birth to this moment in my tiny little small part. And anyone else who contributed open source code or any code at all that the agents have had access to over the last, well, entire time programming has been around as a discipline, is now part of these new agent overlords.
Lex Fridman
So you don’t have a little bit of sadness that writing beautiful code by hand is now less and less useful?
So you don’t have a little bit of sadness that writing beautiful code by hand is now less and less useful?
DHH
Am I sad that if I had to get a job tomorrow, it’s unlikely that I could apply my skills in such a way that I would be paid to write these manual lines of code? No. I did it for 25 years. Like, I wanna see something new here, especially if we’re all gonna live forever, which I hope we don’t. Maybe we’ll get to that. But, like, I’ve done that. That’s enough. That’s fine. I don’t feel any more nostalgic about that than I do about the fact that I don’t have to spend my time in the field with a hoe or at the assembly line.
Am I sad that if I had to get a job tomorrow, it’s unlikely that I could apply my skills in such a way that I would be paid to write these manual lines of code? No. I did it for 25 years. Like, I wanna see something new here, especially if we’re all gonna live forever, which I hope we don’t. Maybe we’ll get to that. But, like, I’ve done that. That’s enough. That’s fine. I don’t feel any more nostalgic about that than I do about the fact that I don’t have to spend my time in the field with a hoe or at the assembly line.
Lex Fridman
Well, hold on a second. You are one of the best programmers in the world at writing handcrafted beautiful code, appreciators of beauty with great taste.
Well, hold on a second. You are one of the best programmers in the world at writing handcrafted beautiful code, appreciators of beauty with great taste.
DHH
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
That has been replaced.
That has been replaced.
DHH
I say humbly.
I say humbly.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. That has been replaced. Like, you have now… You’re just fast evolving, and you’re able to… One of your really great qualities is you’re able to change your mind and evolve very quickly. But, like, you had to kill that other person.
Yeah. That has been replaced. Like, you have now… You’re just fast evolving, and you’re able to… One of your really great qualities is you’re able to change your mind and evolve very quickly. But, like, you had to kill that other person.
DHH
I am grateful for every moment that brought me to where I am right now, and therefore, I have also tried, and maybe this did take some practice. I will concede that. Maybe I wasn’t always like this, but stoic philosophy, amor fati, loving your fate, is an incredibly liberating way to live. And you could attack that and say, “Well, that’s a point of privilege.” True, but also I had the same directional point when I didn’t have all this, quote unquote, “privilege.” So I think there’s a way to live and interact with the world where you accept the things you can change and the things you cannot change and fall in love with all of it. Fall in love with the fact that the world today has jumped two decades forward into technology industry from where it was last year.
I am grateful for every moment that brought me to where I am right now, and therefore, I have also tried, and maybe this did take some practice. I will concede that. Maybe I wasn’t always like this, but stoic philosophy, amor fati, loving your fate, is an incredibly liberating way to live. And you could attack that and say, “Well, that’s a point of privilege.” True, but also I had the same directional point when I didn’t have all this, quote unquote, “privilege.” So I think there’s a way to live and interact with the world where you accept the things you can change and the things you cannot change and fall in love with all of it. Fall in love with the fact that the world today has jumped two decades forward into technology industry from where it was last year.
Advice for programmers
Lex Fridman
So can we talk about the general anxiety that programmers feel going through the same transformation? They’ve maybe gone to university, majored in computer science, dreamed of being programmers and building stuff, high salary, and now everything’s changing, and there’s deep anxiety about, “What do I do when… with my life?” Can you empathize with that, and what the hell are they supposed to do?
So can we talk about the general anxiety that programmers feel going through the same transformation? They’ve maybe gone to university, majored in computer science, dreamed of being programmers and building stuff, high salary, and now everything’s changing, and there’s deep anxiety about, “What do I do when… with my life?” Can you empathize with that, and what the hell are they supposed to do?
DHH
Hugely. Because just because I have this disposition, I’m keenly aware that that’s not evenly distributed, that not everyone sits with this position and this optimism for the future. But I do think I wanna separate things a little bit. I think you’re gonna have a hard time coping with the new reality if the only thing you loved about programming was the mechanical bits of putting the right logical constructs together to produce something other people told you to produce. Because that mechanical process is under threat. If you are, as you just mentioned, excited about building things, I don’t think you’re under threat at all. In fact, I think there’s a great argument for us needing far more builders than what we have now, and if you look at the employment stats, it’s fuzzy.
Hugely. Because just because I have this disposition, I’m keenly aware that that’s not evenly distributed, that not everyone sits with this position and this optimism for the future. But I do think I wanna separate things a little bit. I think you’re gonna have a hard time coping with the new reality if the only thing you loved about programming was the mechanical bits of putting the right logical constructs together to produce something other people told you to produce. Because that mechanical process is under threat. If you are, as you just mentioned, excited about building things, I don’t think you’re under threat at all. In fact, I think there’s a great argument for us needing far more builders than what we have now, and if you look at the employment stats, it’s fuzzy.
DHH
It’s not clear what’s gonna happen at all. Some stats actually show an increase in openings because the advent of AI is so dramatically lowering the price of programs that people want a lot more programs. This is the classic, the Jevons paradox, that says when the price of something goes down, there’s gonna be more demand for it. And this is the example of the ATMs too. When the ATM originally came, a lot of bank tellers were very afraid for their job because suddenly there was a machine that could dispense money from people’s account. Well, what the ATMs did was lower the price of a branch, and suddenly banks could afford to open a lot more branches, and we ended up with more bank tellers than we did before. Now, none of this is guaranteed. There are also moments where things do change.
It’s not clear what’s gonna happen at all. Some stats actually show an increase in openings because the advent of AI is so dramatically lowering the price of programs that people want a lot more programs. This is the classic, the Jevons paradox, that says when the price of something goes down, there’s gonna be more demand for it. And this is the example of the ATMs too. When the ATM originally came, a lot of bank tellers were very afraid for their job because suddenly there was a machine that could dispense money from people’s account. Well, what the ATMs did was lower the price of a branch, and suddenly banks could afford to open a lot more branches, and we ended up with more bank tellers than we did before. Now, none of this is guaranteed. There are also moments where things do change.
DHH
The vast majority of people worked in the fields up until the late 1800s, and then suddenly we got mechanized harvesting tools, and we did not need human labor with a hoe and an ox out there. We had mechanical tools to do that for us. In that moment, are there people who were threatened that their job and their livelihood was at stake? Yes. Was that a reasonable thing to feel threatened about? Yes. The Luddites smashing the weaving machines-
The vast majority of people worked in the fields up until the late 1800s, and then suddenly we got mechanized harvesting tools, and we did not need human labor with a hoe and an ox out there. We had mechanical tools to do that for us. In that moment, are there people who were threatened that their job and their livelihood was at stake? Yes. Was that a reasonable thing to feel threatened about? Yes. The Luddites smashing the weaving machines-
DHH
… in England had the same thing. And I think maybe that’s the better parallel than people working the fields, because these were actually highly skilled professionals doing a job that they liked on rather favorable conditions, not slaving outside in the sun all day. But where we live now, would we still like for clothing to be this heavily constrained resource? Like, what if this T-shirt was $400? I mean, okay, then I’d have two. Well, my wardrobe probably looks like I have two. But I think the general progress of mankind depends on productivity improvements. And what are productivity improvements? This is very important, because in the abstract, I think everyone says, “Yay, productivity. That’s good.” What did you think, this was all just vibes? No.
… in England had the same thing. And I think maybe that’s the better parallel than people working the fields, because these were actually highly skilled professionals doing a job that they liked on rather favorable conditions, not slaving outside in the sun all day. But where we live now, would we still like for clothing to be this heavily constrained resource? Like, what if this T-shirt was $400? I mean, okay, then I’d have two. Well, my wardrobe probably looks like I have two. But I think the general progress of mankind depends on productivity improvements. And what are productivity improvements? This is very important, because in the abstract, I think everyone says, “Yay, productivity. That’s good.” What did you think, this was all just vibes? No.
DHH
Productivity means fewer people to do the same number or the same job. Now, the amount of job you want done may increase, and therefore you get more people, but it also may not. There may be pockets where a company just needs a certain set of fixed tasks done, and suddenly they can do them with a 10th the number of people. This, by the way, could… is tragic and difficult in the moment for the individual being laid off. It’s also amazing for the economy at large. Suddenly you’ve freed up these resources who can now go do more productive things. This is how the whole economy evolves and improves, and how we get growth, and growth is good. I think this is the other thing to make a strong defense for, that growth in general is a good thing.
Productivity means fewer people to do the same number or the same job. Now, the amount of job you want done may increase, and therefore you get more people, but it also may not. There may be pockets where a company just needs a certain set of fixed tasks done, and suddenly they can do them with a 10th the number of people. This, by the way, could… is tragic and difficult in the moment for the individual being laid off. It’s also amazing for the economy at large. Suddenly you’ve freed up these resources who can now go do more productive things. This is how the whole economy evolves and improves, and how we get growth, and growth is good. I think this is the other thing to make a strong defense for, that growth in general is a good thing.
DHH
We do not want to wind the clock back to 1920 or 1950. We should be excited about the fact that we’ve discovered new technology that allows us to do vastly more. And while some of the tasks that may be taken over by AI were tasks that humans were excited to do, and they’re just no longer economically viable, a lot of the tasks were just drudgery. This is certainly true of my programming. There were moments of programming I thought were amazing. These were the moments that produced that state of flow we talked about last time, and they were ecstatic. How often did they happen out of the course of a year? If you took your average programmer, how much time out of 2,000 hours at the job did that person spend in a flow state?
We do not want to wind the clock back to 1920 or 1950. We should be excited about the fact that we’ve discovered new technology that allows us to do vastly more. And while some of the tasks that may be taken over by AI were tasks that humans were excited to do, and they’re just no longer economically viable, a lot of the tasks were just drudgery. This is certainly true of my programming. There were moments of programming I thought were amazing. These were the moments that produced that state of flow we talked about last time, and they were ecstatic. How often did they happen out of the course of a year? If you took your average programmer, how much time out of 2,000 hours at the job did that person spend in a flow state?
DHH
100? 200? 25? I think all those answers could be plausible for someone. And taking that drudgery, handing it over to machines, that is the history of civilization.
100? 200? 25? I think all those answers could be plausible for someone. And taking that drudgery, handing it over to machines, that is the history of civilization.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I mean, the hours spent debugging. So programming has so many painful, painful hours in it. And now they’re gone. For the… I mean, for the most part, it’s just fun.
Yeah, I mean, the hours spent debugging. So programming has so many painful, painful hours in it. And now they’re gone. For the… I mean, for the most part, it’s just fun.
DHH
A lot of it is gone in a lot of domains, and the rest of it may be gone very soon. So that’s where some of the romanticism also comes in- … because pain in the moment is difficult. It’s hard. It’s annoying. Pain in the rearview mirror is accomplishment, proud, learning, steps forward, all the things, right? So we encompass all of this as part of the human experience, that we hate pain in the moment, but we cherish it when it’s five minutes past and we don’t remember the hardship. We just remember the progress.
A lot of it is gone in a lot of domains, and the rest of it may be gone very soon. So that’s where some of the romanticism also comes in- … because pain in the moment is difficult. It’s hard. It’s annoying. Pain in the rearview mirror is accomplishment, proud, learning, steps forward, all the things, right? So we encompass all of this as part of the human experience, that we hate pain in the moment, but we cherish it when it’s five minutes past and we don’t remember the hardship. We just remember the progress.
Lex Fridman
So certainly at the societal level, at the macroeconomic level, growth is exciting. But at the individual level, there’s going to be a lot of anxiety, potentially a lot of suffering. So by way of advice, if you’re like a young DHH or young developer programmer now, what would you, what would you advise they do?
So certainly at the societal level, at the macroeconomic level, growth is exciting. But at the individual level, there’s going to be a lot of anxiety, potentially a lot of suffering. So by way of advice, if you’re like a young DHH or young developer programmer now, what would you, what would you advise they do?
DHH
Don’t try to anticipate anything. You will literally go crazy. Because even the smartest brains in the business cannot anticipate what two model hops from here is going to look like. It’s an absolute waste of time, and you will develop an AI psychosis trying to deduce what two years from now is gonna look like. Focus on right now, and right now is the most incredible time to be into computers. You can make them do the most amazing things if you lean in. If you maybe for a hot moment force yourself to learn where the state of the art is, I double dog dare you not to get excited about what’s possible.
Don’t try to anticipate anything. You will literally go crazy. Because even the smartest brains in the business cannot anticipate what two model hops from here is going to look like. It’s an absolute waste of time, and you will develop an AI psychosis trying to deduce what two years from now is gonna look like. Focus on right now, and right now is the most incredible time to be into computers. You can make them do the most amazing things if you lean in. If you maybe for a hot moment force yourself to learn where the state of the art is, I double dog dare you not to get excited about what’s possible.
Lex Fridman
And would you recommend building publicly?
And would you recommend building publicly?
DHH
I think it’s optional actually to build publicly. I think it’s, it’s nice to do because then you get to be part of a community, and there’s some camaraderie in open source. Not some camaraderie. There’s an enormous amount of camaraderie. Open source is an incredible source of community and camaraderie, and it’s also a great way to stem some of that personal existential dread. If you’re amongst other humans, you can get infected with good forms of mind viruses, exciting forms of mind viruses, the ones that tell you that it’s all gonna be okay, and the future looks bright, and if we build a bunch of things together, we can do things none of us ever dreamed we could do.
I think it’s optional actually to build publicly. I think it’s, it’s nice to do because then you get to be part of a community, and there’s some camaraderie in open source. Not some camaraderie. There’s an enormous amount of camaraderie. Open source is an incredible source of community and camaraderie, and it’s also a great way to stem some of that personal existential dread. If you’re amongst other humans, you can get infected with good forms of mind viruses, exciting forms of mind viruses, the ones that tell you that it’s all gonna be okay, and the future looks bright, and if we build a bunch of things together, we can do things none of us ever dreamed we could do.
DHH
I was just talking to Ryan Hughes, who’s been my main partner on Omarchy almost since day one, and we were literally talking about yesterday how when we started on this journey together, our ambitions were very modest. We’re just like, “Can we get this distro to not crash at 3:00 AM because of an Arch package that just got pushed out outside of our control? That would be amazing. Then it’d be great.” Now we’re leaning back and thinking, “How can we take over the world? How can we make Omarchy go to Mars? How can we do everything we’ve ever dreamed of?” And that level of ambition inflation is partly because things have gotten better with agents, but hugely also because we’ve surrounded ourselves with others excited about the same journey.
I was just talking to Ryan Hughes, who’s been my main partner on Omarchy almost since day one, and we were literally talking about yesterday how when we started on this journey together, our ambitions were very modest. We’re just like, “Can we get this distro to not crash at 3:00 AM because of an Arch package that just got pushed out outside of our control? That would be amazing. Then it’d be great.” Now we’re leaning back and thinking, “How can we take over the world? How can we make Omarchy go to Mars? How can we do everything we’ve ever dreamed of?” And that level of ambition inflation is partly because things have gotten better with agents, but hugely also because we’ve surrounded ourselves with others excited about the same journey.
DHH
And if you’re just sitting in your little isolated cave worrying about the future, yeah, you’re gonna go a little nuts. I think if we learned anything during COVID, it’s that people will go nuts sitting in their little cave inside by themselves worrying about what’s gonna happen. That is indistinguishable from depression, ruminating endlessly about things you can’t control. I’m sorry to channel some Jensen Huang here, but that’s just loser talk. You don’t have to be a loser. You can choose to lean in and- … win. And win is very broadly defined as learning more, making more, contributing more, being part of more. And at the end of the day, what are your choices? You don’t have a choice, mate.
And if you’re just sitting in your little isolated cave worrying about the future, yeah, you’re gonna go a little nuts. I think if we learned anything during COVID, it’s that people will go nuts sitting in their little cave inside by themselves worrying about what’s gonna happen. That is indistinguishable from depression, ruminating endlessly about things you can’t control. I’m sorry to channel some Jensen Huang here, but that’s just loser talk. You don’t have to be a loser. You can choose to lean in and- … win. And win is very broadly defined as learning more, making more, contributing more, being part of more. And at the end of the day, what are your choices? You don’t have a choice, mate.
DHH
The future’s coming whether you like it or not, so you might as well choose to be excited about it.
The future’s coming whether you like it or not, so you might as well choose to be excited about it.
Lex Fridman
But I mean, we should emphasize the fact that planning is nearly impossible with AI. I mean, most of us plan our life a little bit. When we’re younger, you have, like, hopes and dreams. There’s a reason you go to college. There’s a plan underlying that.
But I mean, we should emphasize the fact that planning is nearly impossible with AI. I mean, most of us plan our life a little bit. When we’re younger, you have, like, hopes and dreams. There’s a reason you go to college. There’s a plan underlying that.
DHH
I agree with that.
I agree with that.
Lex Fridman
But there-
But there-
DHH
I’ll concede that.
I’ll concede that.
Lex Fridman
… it is kinda-
… it is kinda-
DHH
This is different.
This is different.
Lex Fridman
… nuts that it’s impossible to really plan. Because, like, you really don’t know if there will even be a Claude Code, a Codex, and Cursor six months from now. Maybe it’ll be you’ll be talking to WhatsApp. Maybe it’ll be all open call type. Maybe it’ll just all be voice. Maybe Omarchy will take over the world and it’ll be voice. Maybe there won’t be operating systems anymore. You’ll just… There’ll be this glowing orb that just you just talk to because if natural language is enough to accomplish all tasks in life, like, what is life about? Like, what are the major tasks you need to accomplish in life? If you can just do that with voice, and it writes all the programs for you, and all is systematized, and what are the jobs needed then? Maybe it’s more about the service industry.
… nuts that it’s impossible to really plan. Because, like, you really don’t know if there will even be a Claude Code, a Codex, and Cursor six months from now. Maybe it’ll be you’ll be talking to WhatsApp. Maybe it’ll be all open call type. Maybe it’ll just all be voice. Maybe Omarchy will take over the world and it’ll be voice. Maybe there won’t be operating systems anymore. You’ll just… There’ll be this glowing orb that just you just talk to because if natural language is enough to accomplish all tasks in life, like, what is life about? Like, what are the major tasks you need to accomplish in life? If you can just do that with voice, and it writes all the programs for you, and all is systematized, and what are the jobs needed then? Maybe it’s more about the service industry.
Lex Fridman
Maybe there won’t be programmers, like agentic engineers at all. And so yes, your advice is wise to focus on the moment, but that doesn’t mean that it’s just a crazy rollercoaster ride, ’cause we don’t know what this December or what this January will look like.
Maybe there won’t be programmers, like agentic engineers at all. And so yes, your advice is wise to focus on the moment, but that doesn’t mean that it’s just a crazy rollercoaster ride, ’cause we don’t know what this December or what this January will look like.
DHH
We don’t know, and therefore, we should choose to have faith that it’s gonna pan out. That is my best advice towards fighting anxiety, is that you have a choice, to a large degree, of how to lean. Do you wanna lean into PDoom? PDoom is gonna happen whether you lean into it or not. You don’t have control.
We don’t know, and therefore, we should choose to have faith that it’s gonna pan out. That is my best advice towards fighting anxiety, is that you have a choice, to a large degree, of how to lean. Do you wanna lean into PDoom? PDoom is gonna happen whether you lean into it or not. You don’t have control.
Lex Fridman
But there’s also actual daily schedule of how much learning are you doing, how much building are you doing, how much diversification you’re doing. And for example, I traveled across rural China recently, and I did it quite deliberately because you’re talking to people in China, in rural anywhere, where time moves much slower, where there’s no discussions about agentic engineering. And the ti- and I started by going on the Great Wall of China. That’s timeless. That spans centuries. And, you know, there was, like, this kind of tension of FOMO, like maybe I’m missing out on something.
But there’s also actual daily schedule of how much learning are you doing, how much building are you doing, how much diversification you’re doing. And for example, I traveled across rural China recently, and I did it quite deliberately because you’re talking to people in China, in rural anywhere, where time moves much slower, where there’s no discussions about agentic engineering. And the ti- and I started by going on the Great Wall of China. That’s timeless. That spans centuries. And, you know, there was, like, this kind of tension of FOMO, like maybe I’m missing out on something.
Surviving Internet Hate
Lex Fridman
But then I very deliberately wanted to find the timelessness of human existence, really plug into the fact that, okay, it always feels like everything’s changing throughout human history, but, you know, the universals are still true of what matters in life. And I just wanted to make sure to keep connected to that.
But then I very deliberately wanted to find the timelessness of human existence, really plug into the fact that, okay, it always feels like everything’s changing throughout human history, but, you know, the universals are still true of what matters in life. And I just wanted to make sure to keep connected to that.
DHH
You’re not gonna miss anything. This is the part that actually grinded my gears in the early phases of this transition. Everyone was so up in arms that if you didn’t… It’s loops now. Oh, no, no, we’re done with loops. It’s graphs now. Oh, no, no, we’re done with that. It’s harnesses this, right? They’re constantly churning through the frontier, which in one way is actually very exciting. This is what happens when a new field opens up. It’s like a new portal, and it’s all spilling out. That’s exciting. But it also means that if I had just been backpacking for the last year, hadn’t touched a computer, hadn’t witnessed this agentic moment, and I just showed up yesterday, do you know what? I would’ve been caught up in two weeks.
You’re not gonna miss anything. This is the part that actually grinded my gears in the early phases of this transition. Everyone was so up in arms that if you didn’t… It’s loops now. Oh, no, no, we’re done with loops. It’s graphs now. Oh, no, no, we’re done with that. It’s harnesses this, right? They’re constantly churning through the frontier, which in one way is actually very exciting. This is what happens when a new field opens up. It’s like a new portal, and it’s all spilling out. That’s exciting. But it also means that if I had just been backpacking for the last year, hadn’t touched a computer, hadn’t witnessed this agentic moment, and I just showed up yesterday, do you know what? I would’ve been caught up in two weeks.
DHH
There’s not any accumulation, which is in some ways a great relief. If you missed the past year, you can catch up to the frontier in two weeks. If you’re a programmer who was out hiking the Himalayas for a year and you come back, you can catch up in two weeks. And this is actually the great credit to the progress we’re experiencing. We have so many experiments running simultaneously right now that are constantly and ruthlessly sorting what works, what doesn’t work. You don’t have to remember or even be part of that entire journey. You can just show up for the results.
There’s not any accumulation, which is in some ways a great relief. If you missed the past year, you can catch up to the frontier in two weeks. If you’re a programmer who was out hiking the Himalayas for a year and you come back, you can catch up in two weeks. And this is actually the great credit to the progress we’re experiencing. We have so many experiments running simultaneously right now that are constantly and ruthlessly sorting what works, what doesn’t work. You don’t have to remember or even be part of that entire journey. You can just show up for the results.
Lex Fridman
But the key step there, when you come back from the backpacking journey, is to be willing to become a totally new, different human because things are changing so fast.
But the key step there, when you come back from the backpacking journey, is to be willing to become a totally new, different human because things are changing so fast.
DHH
That’s right.
That’s right.
Lex Fridman
I mean, literally, if you left for the backpacking journey- … in October last year and came back in April or May-
I mean, literally, if you left for the backpacking journey- … in October last year and came back in April or May-
DHH
You might as well have been in the cryo chamber for 100 years.
You might as well have been in the cryo chamber for 100 years.
Lex Fridman
… it’s like, “What, what do you mean? We’re not programming anymore?” This, it’s a very… it’s a huge transformation.
… it’s like, “What, what do you mean? We’re not programming anymore?” This, it’s a very… it’s a huge transformation.
DHH
It’s startling, and I actually… I mean, I’m putting some of this on slightly for effect. I also recognize that it’s okay to grief for a hot moment. That’s not my disposition. It’s not how I do it, but I accept that that’s a time-tested mechanism for coping with a sense of loss. And it’s okay to have a sense of loss that the world that you knew and maybe you were very fond of is no longer the same.
It’s startling, and I actually… I mean, I’m putting some of this on slightly for effect. I also recognize that it’s okay to grief for a hot moment. That’s not my disposition. It’s not how I do it, but I accept that that’s a time-tested mechanism for coping with a sense of loss. And it’s okay to have a sense of loss that the world that you knew and maybe you were very fond of is no longer the same.
Lex Fridman
I maybe should say out loud and explicitly that I do have that, the Native American with a tear rolling down my… Like, there’s a sadness. It’s a goodbye. It’s a goodbye to the old world of programming.
I maybe should say out loud and explicitly that I do have that, the Native American with a tear rolling down my… Like, there’s a sadness. It’s a goodbye. It’s a goodbye to the old world of programming.
DHH
That’s… it’s so fascinating to me.
That’s… it’s so fascinating to me.
Lex Fridman
I’ve spent so many years-
I’ve spent so many years-
DHH
But it all amounted to this moment. That is, to me, what makes the entire journey so meaningful. AI did not arrive from the sky. It was not alien technology that had blasted through the universe and suddenly showed up on our shores. AI has been around for as long as computer science has been around. In the ’50s, they thought the problem was gonna be cracked in about a decade, the smartest people at the time. It took a little longer, but the reason it took a little longer was in part because we took some blind turns on the road to AI and neural networks and thought that there were other symbolic representations that were gonna carry the day, and they didn’t. And that probably set us back about 15 years. So some of it was also we had to go through the gaming revolution, 3D games.
But it all amounted to this moment. That is, to me, what makes the entire journey so meaningful. AI did not arrive from the sky. It was not alien technology that had blasted through the universe and suddenly showed up on our shores. AI has been around for as long as computer science has been around. In the ’50s, they thought the problem was gonna be cracked in about a decade, the smartest people at the time. It took a little longer, but the reason it took a little longer was in part because we took some blind turns on the road to AI and neural networks and thought that there were other symbolic representations that were gonna carry the day, and they didn’t. And that probably set us back about 15 years. So some of it was also we had to go through the gaming revolution, 3D games.
DHH
If we had not had Quake, if we had not had Duke Nukem, if we had not had Unreal Tournament, we’d never have gotten AI because we would never have gotten the GPUs, and therefore we would never have been able to get AI in the shape it is now. So everything we did up until this moment was required to get there. You were part of that. Holy… What a blessing. What a blessing to have contributed in your small part, either by training or by playing video games. Literally, you could just choose to think of it that way. All those times you spent in, for my case, in the ’90s just playing video games, they were-
If we had not had Quake, if we had not had Duke Nukem, if we had not had Unreal Tournament, we’d never have gotten AI because we would never have gotten the GPUs, and therefore we would never have been able to get AI in the shape it is now. So everything we did up until this moment was required to get there. You were part of that. Holy… What a blessing. What a blessing to have contributed in your small part, either by training or by playing video games. Literally, you could just choose to think of it that way. All those times you spent in, for my case, in the ’90s just playing video games, they were-
Lex Fridman
You were contributing.
You were contributing.
DHH
Yeah, I was contributing to the AI revolution right there and then moment.
Yeah, I was contributing to the AI revolution right there and then moment.
Lex Fridman
To the progress of human civilization. No, for sure. Civilization progresses with the death of the old and the birth of the new, and it continues in this way, but it’s still the grieving process is a part of it, I think.
To the progress of human civilization. No, for sure. Civilization progresses with the death of the old and the birth of the new, and it continues in this way, but it’s still the grieving process is a part of it, I think.
DHH
Take a moment. It’s okay. Take a… And also, you don’t even have to accept that it’s all dead. Like, if you are still very attached to the hand chiseling, which if you’d asked me a year ago, I would have predicted that I would’ve been more attached. I’m surprised-
Take a moment. It’s okay. Take a… And also, you don’t even have to accept that it’s all dead. Like, if you are still very attached to the hand chiseling, which if you’d asked me a year ago, I would have predicted that I would’ve been more attached. I’m surprised-
Lex Fridman
I’m kinda surprised…
I’m kinda surprised…
DHH
… a little that I’ve not been more attached. But the reason I’ve not been more attached, I think, is that I found something more fun. And if it hadn’t been like that, if AI had just replaced the thing I loved and gave me something I hated, I’d probably be a little bitter.
… a little that I’ve not been more attached. But the reason I’ve not been more attached, I think, is that I found something more fun. And if it hadn’t been like that, if AI had just replaced the thing I loved and gave me something I hated, I’d probably be a little bitter.
Lex Fridman
I mean, this really feels… It’s– it’s hilarious and awesome to watch and inspiring to watch. It’s like Picasso all of a sudden f– like, getting access to image generation and getting super excited and switching in a matter of months. That’s literally what happened. So, like, it’s an artist that appreciated beautiful code, and all of a sudden you’re talking about having fun-
I mean, this really feels… It’s– it’s hilarious and awesome to watch and inspiring to watch. It’s like Picasso all of a sudden f– like, getting access to image generation and getting super excited and switching in a matter of months. That’s literally what happened. So, like, it’s an artist that appreciated beautiful code, and all of a sudden you’re talking about having fun-
DHH
I think Picasso is actually a good parallel because if you look at his early work where he learned his craft, it was painting realistic paintings, right? Like, he was training to be a master of the old ways of depicting reality the best way we knew how, and then along comes all these other forms of expression. Cubism comes along.
I think Picasso is actually a good parallel because if you look at his early work where he learned his craft, it was painting realistic paintings, right? Like, he was training to be a master of the old ways of depicting reality the best way we knew how, and then along comes all these other forms of expression. Cubism comes along.
DHH
And all these o– forms of abstract expression, he’s not decrying that he’s not doing Renaissance paintings anymore, that he’s not just painting the perfect depiction of an apple. He’s reimagining the apple to be a freaking square, and he’s getting excited about that. And I feel that transition, that we’ve gone from this one mode of expression, and we’ve suddenly opened the gates where the, like, the color spectrum is so much wider. I’m seeing more. And it’s perhaps because the way I became a c– programmer. I did not become a programmer because of a deep love of if statements. I became a programmer because I wanted programs. I wanted things to exist that did not exist. And at first, I had to learn how to program to make that happen.
And all these o– forms of abstract expression, he’s not decrying that he’s not doing Renaissance paintings anymore, that he’s not just painting the perfect depiction of an apple. He’s reimagining the apple to be a freaking square, and he’s getting excited about that. And I feel that transition, that we’ve gone from this one mode of expression, and we’ve suddenly opened the gates where the, like, the color spectrum is so much wider. I’m seeing more. And it’s perhaps because the way I became a c– programmer. I did not become a programmer because of a deep love of if statements. I became a programmer because I wanted programs. I wanted things to exist that did not exist. And at first, I had to learn how to program to make that happen.
DHH
Then I happened to fall in love with programming as a craft, and then I spent two decades really diving deep on that. But now I’m back. I’m back to having an idea and being impatient beyond belief to see it exist in the world, and AI has just shrunk that down to almost nothing. So it’s an acceleration of a rediscovery. Now, I understand that that’s not true for everyone. There are plenty of programmers who just loved programming right from the beginning, and they were attracted to the logical constructs and so forth. I mean, I’ve been there for two decades, so I get it. But I also think that you’re able to discover new sides of yourself-
Then I happened to fall in love with programming as a craft, and then I spent two decades really diving deep on that. But now I’m back. I’m back to having an idea and being impatient beyond belief to see it exist in the world, and AI has just shrunk that down to almost nothing. So it’s an acceleration of a rediscovery. Now, I understand that that’s not true for everyone. There are plenty of programmers who just loved programming right from the beginning, and they were attracted to the logical constructs and so forth. I mean, I’ve been there for two decades, so I get it. But I also think that you’re able to discover new sides of yourself-
DHH
… if you let it in. Again, I keep coming back to this almost regret minimization framework, to borrow Jeff Bezos’s terms here. Are you gonna look at yourself two years from now and think, “Oh, I spent my time well being pissy about the present, about the fact that my industry changed”? Or would I two years from now look back upon this moment and be proud of myself for leaning in, for maybe having a moment of grief? Again, there’s room for all of it. And then going, “I’m gonna learn how the world spins now, and I’m gonna make not just the best of it, I’m gonna make more of it.”
… if you let it in. Again, I keep coming back to this almost regret minimization framework, to borrow Jeff Bezos’s terms here. Are you gonna look at yourself two years from now and think, “Oh, I spent my time well being pissy about the present, about the fact that my industry changed”? Or would I two years from now look back upon this moment and be proud of myself for leaning in, for maybe having a moment of grief? Again, there’s room for all of it. And then going, “I’m gonna learn how the world spins now, and I’m gonna make not just the best of it, I’m gonna make more of it.”
Lex Fridman
I mean, it is true, a lot of programmers, a lot of friends of mine, me, obviously you, are having fun.
I mean, it is true, a lot of programmers, a lot of friends of mine, me, obviously you, are having fun.
DHH
I have had more fun with computers in the last three months than at any time previously.
I have had more fun with computers in the last three months than at any time previously.
Lex Fridman
Quick bathroom break, and then I gotta ask you about how you actually interact with the systems now.
Quick bathroom break, and then I gotta ask you about how you actually interact with the systems now.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Programming setup for AI Agents
Lex Fridman
I gotta ask you about how has your setup programming setup changed? So, keyboard, voice, what’s the IDE?
I gotta ask you about how has your setup programming setup changed? So, keyboard, voice, what’s the IDE?
DHH
It’s crazy to think about now, but yeah, I used TextMate for almost 20 years. I used TextMate starting in 2005, I think. I helped get the first version out, and then I just wasn’t interested. I wasn’t in the market for an alternative. And it wasn’t until the switch to Linux that I was forced out of my habitat. And now with the switch to, what are we calling it? Agentic engineering? Oh, I fucking hate that term. We gotta come up with something that sounds as plain as programming, but encapsulates the fact that it’s with agents. But-
It’s crazy to think about now, but yeah, I used TextMate for almost 20 years. I used TextMate starting in 2005, I think. I helped get the first version out, and then I just wasn’t interested. I wasn’t in the market for an alternative. And it wasn’t until the switch to Linux that I was forced out of my habitat. And now with the switch to, what are we calling it? Agentic engineering? Oh, I fucking hate that term. We gotta come up with something that sounds as plain as programming, but encapsulates the fact that it’s with agents. But-
Lex Fridman
I still think it should be called programming at this point.
I still think it should be called programming at this point.
DHH
… All right, let’s just call it programming. Programming with agents requires a different tool set. It really does. And the main change here is that you’re going from single thread programming in your head to parallel processing. When I was writing code, chiseling it by hand in TextMate or even Neovim not that long ago, I would just focus on one problem at the time, and I would methodically work my way through it, and that was actually the portal to flow. The portal to flow was deep immersion into a single problem, see it through to the end.
… All right, let’s just call it programming. Programming with agents requires a different tool set. It really does. And the main change here is that you’re going from single thread programming in your head to parallel processing. When I was writing code, chiseling it by hand in TextMate or even Neovim not that long ago, I would just focus on one problem at the time, and I would methodically work my way through it, and that was actually the portal to flow. The portal to flow was deep immersion into a single problem, see it through to the end.
DHH
That’s not how it works with agents, in part because the agents are at once both too fast and too slow. They don’t give you an immediate reply on something that you asked them to do that’s the same as typing on a keyboard. So you have to let the agent cook- … for a bit, and therefore you realize, well, if I just sit around waiting for them, first of all, that doesn’t feel productive. Even if the agent, just one of them, can be highly productive, it does not feel productive. It does not feel good. It feels actually like you’re a little bit useless.
That’s not how it works with agents, in part because the agents are at once both too fast and too slow. They don’t give you an immediate reply on something that you asked them to do that’s the same as typing on a keyboard. So you have to let the agent cook- … for a bit, and therefore you realize, well, if I just sit around waiting for them, first of all, that doesn’t feel productive. Even if the agent, just one of them, can be highly productive, it does not feel productive. It does not feel good. It feels actually like you’re a little bit useless.
DHH
And maybe I had a moment when the first agentic moment was there and we, I was running mostly one agent at a time where I felt like, “I don’t know about this.” But you can solve a lot of hard problems by simply throwing more resources at it. This is the whole scaling law of AI itself, right? That if you parallelize these things and you’re not running one agent, but you’re running a handful, you can feel like you’re in a flow state because you’re constantly doing programming work in the sense that you’re making decisions, and you’re helping either unblock an agent because it has a question about which direction to take, or you’re ready for a new task. And to do that, you need a different setup.
And maybe I had a moment when the first agentic moment was there and we, I was running mostly one agent at a time where I felt like, “I don’t know about this.” But you can solve a lot of hard problems by simply throwing more resources at it. This is the whole scaling law of AI itself, right? That if you parallelize these things and you’re not running one agent, but you’re running a handful, you can feel like you’re in a flow state because you’re constantly doing programming work in the sense that you’re making decisions, and you’re helping either unblock an agent because it has a question about which direction to take, or you’re ready for a new task. And to do that, you need a different setup.
DHH
I started first doing it in tmux and just having separate panes and having separate splits. Basically a terminal with tabs is a good way to think about it. You open a bunch of tabs. I think most humans know exactly how that works. They don’t work in just one tab.
I started first doing it in tmux and just having separate panes and having separate splits. Basically a terminal with tabs is a good way to think about it. You open a bunch of tabs. I think most humans know exactly how that works. They don’t work in just one tab.
Lex Fridman
So still sticking to the terminal, CLI.
So still sticking to the terminal, CLI.
DHH
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman
So you’re not using Claude Code app or the-
So you’re not using Claude Code app or the-
DHH
No.
No.
Lex Fridman
… Codex app or the-
… Codex app or the-
DHH
I love the fact that this agent revolution was kicked off in the terminal because I was already a huge fan of TUI’s, terminal user interfaces, and the terminal in general. That feels like a really nice place to be. It’s a beautiful place to be. The modern terminal is just a good-looking place to work. So I like that. And then this fact of having multiple agents, especially once it’s not just multiple agents running on your own machine, but you start running multiple machines. Now tmux alone is not enough to keep track of it, and that’s why as of late I’ve switched to this thing called Herdr.
I love the fact that this agent revolution was kicked off in the terminal because I was already a huge fan of TUI’s, terminal user interfaces, and the terminal in general. That feels like a really nice place to be. It’s a beautiful place to be. The modern terminal is just a good-looking place to work. So I like that. And then this fact of having multiple agents, especially once it’s not just multiple agents running on your own machine, but you start running multiple machines. Now tmux alone is not enough to keep track of it, and that’s why as of late I’ve switched to this thing called Herdr.
DHH
And Herdr is essentially tmux plus agent notifications. So whenever your agent is done and needs something for you, it goes ding, a little bell telling you it’s ready for its human… Is it master or servant? I’m not quite sure always. But it is ready for a decision, and it also keeps track of whether it is working mode or not. So I have this Herdr set up. I have multiple Herdr setups actually running on individual machines. I went on this crazy phase just about a month ago realizing that doing this work on a single machine is not fast enough. It’s like I’ve discovered multi-core programming, but I only have two cores. I’m like, “What if I had 16 cores? What if I had 32 cores? What if I had 64 cores?” So I instantly went out and I bought these amazing KVMs called GL.iNet Comets.
And Herdr is essentially tmux plus agent notifications. So whenever your agent is done and needs something for you, it goes ding, a little bell telling you it’s ready for its human… Is it master or servant? I’m not quite sure always. But it is ready for a decision, and it also keeps track of whether it is working mode or not. So I have this Herdr set up. I have multiple Herdr setups actually running on individual machines. I went on this crazy phase just about a month ago realizing that doing this work on a single machine is not fast enough. It’s like I’ve discovered multi-core programming, but I only have two cores. I’m like, “What if I had 16 cores? What if I had 32 cores? What if I had 64 cores?” So I instantly went out and I bought these amazing KVMs called GL.iNet Comets.
DHH
And what they do is it’s this little box. You plug in HDMI, you plug in USB and connect it to the computer. It’s like a KVM. So a KVM is a remote way of controlling a computer, but what’s special about this is just how easy it was. You connect this thing in, you go to a webpage, log in once, set one password. Now this thing can hop on your tailnet. This has been the other revolution of the last year for me, is discovering these WireGuard networks. Tailscale is essentially turning all the computers you have into a local network wherever you are. Like right now on my phone, I have direct access to all the computers in my Malibu office. I also have access to all my computers in my Copenhagen office.
And what they do is it’s this little box. You plug in HDMI, you plug in USB and connect it to the computer. It’s like a KVM. So a KVM is a remote way of controlling a computer, but what’s special about this is just how easy it was. You connect this thing in, you go to a webpage, log in once, set one password. Now this thing can hop on your tailnet. This has been the other revolution of the last year for me, is discovering these WireGuard networks. Tailscale is essentially turning all the computers you have into a local network wherever you are. Like right now on my phone, I have direct access to all the computers in my Malibu office. I also have access to all my computers in my Copenhagen office.
DHH
And I can treat them as though I sat right next to them without having to punch holes in a firewall or set up complicated VPNs. And what this does is it just decreases the friction it takes to get new compute online. So as soon as I discovered this, I looked at my closet, and I realized I had a bunch of mini PCs from prior experiments, and I just said, “What if I just connected all of them?”
And I can treat them as though I sat right next to them without having to punch holes in a firewall or set up complicated VPNs. And what this does is it just decreases the friction it takes to get new compute online. So as soon as I discovered this, I looked at my closet, and I realized I had a bunch of mini PCs from prior experiments, and I just said, “What if I just connected all of them?”
Lex Fridman
Oh, wow.
Oh, wow.
DHH
And I just connected four of the computers-
And I just connected four of the computers-
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
DHH
… in a closet. They all had their little Comet, and suddenly I could run agents on more computers at the same time, and I could control them all with Herdr. And it did get to a point where I maxed out my own processing power.
… in a closet. They all had their little Comet, and suddenly I could run agents on more computers at the same time, and I could control them all with Herdr. And it did get to a point where I maxed out my own processing power.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
DHH
That I think at about… What do we want to put it? About four to five machines running, I don’t know, three agents. I have about 16 threads. That’s what I can run. And the faster the agents run, of course, the fewer threads I can run, but at the current pace, I can run about 16 threads- … at full acceleration. And that’s part of why I’ve gone from just being excited about the agent moment to being delirious. Because I think as you say, some of it is a little assaulting. Again, we’re on—we’re on a dial-up bandwidth-wise with our computer. I mean, it’s actually hilarious. So you think of I’m sitting here a year ago, right? I’m chiseling my code. I’m writing my lines.
That I think at about… What do we want to put it? About four to five machines running, I don’t know, three agents. I have about 16 threads. That’s what I can run. And the faster the agents run, of course, the fewer threads I can run, but at the current pace, I can run about 16 threads- … at full acceleration. And that’s part of why I’ve gone from just being excited about the agent moment to being delirious. Because I think as you say, some of it is a little assaulting. Again, we’re on—we’re on a dial-up bandwidth-wise with our computer. I mean, it’s actually hilarious. So you think of I’m sitting here a year ago, right? I’m chiseling my code. I’m writing my lines.
DHH
And over the course of, like, an hour, I will have written one beautiful controller, one beautiful model. Like, that’s one file. And I’ve really worked on it, right? So maybe there’s 60 lines left. So maybe my bandwidth at this moment is, like, 30 lines an hour. I think that’s even high. Maybe it’s 20 lines an hour. Now I’m running 16 threads. I’m producing at some times hundreds of lines an hour or hundreds of lines of code per hour. Now, let me pause myself there for a hot moment. I hate that metric, right?
And over the course of, like, an hour, I will have written one beautiful controller, one beautiful model. Like, that’s one file. And I’ve really worked on it, right? So maybe there’s 60 lines left. So maybe my bandwidth at this moment is, like, 30 lines an hour. I think that’s even high. Maybe it’s 20 lines an hour. Now I’m running 16 threads. I’m producing at some times hundreds of lines an hour or hundreds of lines of code per hour. Now, let me pause myself there for a hot moment. I hate that metric, right?
DHH
Like, lines of code is a stupid metric in general to measure these things, and I think it’s right from some in the programming community to ridicule the AI psychosis when everyone talks about the number of lines of code they’re writing, and then you ask them, “What did you build?” And then they’re like, “Well, I…” And then no good answer comes out, right?
Like, lines of code is a stupid metric in general to measure these things, and I think it’s right from some in the programming community to ridicule the AI psychosis when everyone talks about the number of lines of code they’re writing, and then you ask them, “What did you build?” And then they’re like, “Well, I…” And then no good answer comes out, right?
Lex Fridman
It’s just a nice shorthand to-
It’s just a nice shorthand to-
DHH
It is a nice shorthand. It is a representation or encapsulation of how much output that’s coming out. Now, whether the output is good or bad-
It is a nice shorthand. It is a representation or encapsulation of how much output that’s coming out. Now, whether the output is good or bad-
DHH
… is not a referendum on that. But I was producing and producing so much more now, right? And therefore I’m able to keep all these threads going. So that’s the setup. It’s still Neovim, but at this point, I’m not writing a lot of code, so I’m using Neovim as a project browser and then as a way to kick off lazygit to see the change log for what’s there. And even that, I’d say if GitHub was a little faster at showing you your pull request, the web is probably actually a nicer place to do that. I don’t know. There’s also this other tool I’ve been playing with a bit called Hunk, which just produces diffs in a really nice way. So you could look at that too.
… is not a referendum on that. But I was producing and producing so much more now, right? And therefore I’m able to keep all these threads going. So that’s the setup. It’s still Neovim, but at this point, I’m not writing a lot of code, so I’m using Neovim as a project browser and then as a way to kick off lazygit to see the change log for what’s there. And even that, I’d say if GitHub was a little faster at showing you your pull request, the web is probably actually a nicer place to do that. I don’t know. There’s also this other tool I’ve been playing with a bit called Hunk, which just produces diffs in a really nice way. So you could look at that too.
DHH
But I find that when I look at Hunk, I only see the change set, and when I’m reviewing output from an agent, I often want to see the surrounding context. Oh, yeah, so it changed this file, but actually, what do we have in this other file that wasn’t touched but maybe should’ve been touched? So that’s why I still like Neovim as a way of doing it. But it’s all happening, by the way, of course, in Omarchy. So it’s all happening on Linux. And this was the other major breakthrough with agents. Agents love the Unix philosophy. It loves individual tools that it can invoke through the command line, and there is no operating system on Earth of the majors, I’m counting three here, Mac, Windows, Linux, that works as well with that mechanism as Linux.
But I find that when I look at Hunk, I only see the change set, and when I’m reviewing output from an agent, I often want to see the surrounding context. Oh, yeah, so it changed this file, but actually, what do we have in this other file that wasn’t touched but maybe should’ve been touched? So that’s why I still like Neovim as a way of doing it. But it’s all happening, by the way, of course, in Omarchy. So it’s all happening on Linux. And this was the other major breakthrough with agents. Agents love the Unix philosophy. It loves individual tools that it can invoke through the command line, and there is no operating system on Earth of the majors, I’m counting three here, Mac, Windows, Linux, that works as well with that mechanism as Linux.
DHH
Everything in Linux is either a config file or a CLI tool. Now, that was its main drawback five minutes ago. This was the reason people didn’t like Linux. It’s like it’s all config files and CLI tools.
Everything in Linux is either a config file or a CLI tool. Now, that was its main drawback five minutes ago. This was the reason people didn’t like Linux. It’s like it’s all config files and CLI tools.
DHH
What great irony that the universe has played it upon us that now the drawbacks of Linux five minutes ago are now its major selling points. This was one of the things… I thought I was stuck for a weekend with a Mac four months ago. I thought I had a computer at the place I was going that was a Linux machine, so I didn’t bring my laptop, and I found out when I arrived I only had a Mac Mini. So I was gonna make the best of a bad situation here and set up my Mac in some of the ways I’ve been thinking about with Linux. And you can actually do a lot now. Homebrew has gotten really quite good. Homebrew is the missing package manager for the Mac, and no one has done more to move the Mac forward in terms of ease of setup.
What great irony that the universe has played it upon us that now the drawbacks of Linux five minutes ago are now its major selling points. This was one of the things… I thought I was stuck for a weekend with a Mac four months ago. I thought I had a computer at the place I was going that was a Linux machine, so I didn’t bring my laptop, and I found out when I arrived I only had a Mac Mini. So I was gonna make the best of a bad situation here and set up my Mac in some of the ways I’ve been thinking about with Linux. And you can actually do a lot now. Homebrew has gotten really quite good. Homebrew is the missing package manager for the Mac, and no one has done more to move the Mac forward in terms of ease of setup.
DHH
But still something as simple as Raycast, I don’t know if you’ve used that. That’s the- There’s no config file that you can just access. You have to go into the GUI, export a file, then take that file, I don’t know, in your freaking backpack on a USB key. And then you can import it somewhere else. You cannot automate the entire setup of your machine. You can’t automate at all the configuration of Mac’s default key bindings. That has to be a manual process where you’re clicking with a mouse like a caveman to set up your machine.
But still something as simple as Raycast, I don’t know if you’ve used that. That’s the- There’s no config file that you can just access. You have to go into the GUI, export a file, then take that file, I don’t know, in your freaking backpack on a USB key. And then you can import it somewhere else. You cannot automate the entire setup of your machine. You can’t automate at all the configuration of Mac’s default key bindings. That has to be a manual process where you’re clicking with a mouse like a caveman to set up your machine.
Lex Fridman
I mean, there’s ways around it.
I mean, there’s ways around it.
DHH
Not good ones. I looked. I tried hard.
Not good ones. I looked. I tried hard.
Lex Fridman
So here’s my—been my journey. Obviously I’m a Linux person, but because of Adobe Premiere, Adobe products, I’m also a Windows person, so oftentimes I would use WSL, Windows Subsystem for Linux.
So here’s my—been my journey. Obviously I’m a Linux person, but because of Adobe Premiere, Adobe products, I’m also a Windows person, so oftentimes I would use WSL, Windows Subsystem for Linux.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
So Linux inside Windows, which is… in the agentic era is not a good kind of Linux, ’cause it’s just-
So Linux inside Windows, which is… in the agentic era is not a good kind of Linux, ’cause it’s just-
DHH
It’s a sandbox.
It’s a sandbox.
Lex Fridman
… it’s a sandbox, and you want the Linux to be unleashed to be able to do everything.
… it’s a sandbox, and you want the Linux to be unleashed to be able to do everything.
DHH
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
And so I have now woken up to things like GrayCat, and have w- you know, I’m a keyboard person. Where’s the config file? What, can I basically do everything where an agent can, can set everything up for me and save the configuration so I can replicate it across systems and everything’s automated? And so I had to ask a lot of those questions, and a lot of them are missing.
And so I have now woken up to things like GrayCat, and have w- you know, I’m a keyboard person. Where’s the config file? What, can I basically do everything where an agent can, can set everything up for me and save the configuration so I can replicate it across systems and everything’s automated? And so I had to ask a lot of those questions, and a lot of them are missing.
DHH
They don’t have good answers.
They don’t have good answers.
Lex Fridman
But oftentimes you could actually just build the app yourself.
But oftentimes you could actually just build the app yourself.
DHH
But there are hacks.
But there are hacks.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, they’re hacks.
Yeah, they’re hacks.
DHH
There are hacks.
There are hacks.
Lex Fridman
They’re hacks.
They’re hacks.
DHH
You don’t have to live like this, Lex. There’s a better… Actually, this is a great moment.
You don’t have to live like this, Lex. There’s a better… Actually, this is a great moment.
Lex Fridman
Until you have a video editor.
Until you have a video editor.
Obsessing about speed
DHH
So this is a good moment.
So this is a good moment.
Lex Fridman
Yep.
Yep.
DHH
I heard it was your birthday.
I heard it was your birthday.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
So I brought a little gift.
So I brought a little gift.
Lex Fridman
No.
No.
DHH
We are going to get you onto the agentic operating system whether you like it or not.
We are going to get you onto the agentic operating system whether you like it or not.
Lex Fridman
This is awesome.
This is awesome.
DHH
And I asked- … my friends at Dell whether maybe they had a machine that I could get you for your birthday.
And I asked- … my friends at Dell whether maybe they had a machine that I could get you for your birthday.
Lex Fridman
Oh, no.
Oh, no.
DHH
So here’s the machine I use- … which is- … well, the same one I use, but it’s now yours. It’s a-
So here’s the machine I use- … which is- … well, the same one I use, but it’s now yours. It’s a-
Lex Fridman
No
No
DHH
… Dell XPS 14- … already set up with Omarchy 4-
… Dell XPS 14- … already set up with Omarchy 4-
Lex Fridman
Oh, wow
Oh, wow
DHH
… ready to be configured for you. And once you realize that all your… By the way, we should almost time this. You can be up and running. You have to answer, like, five questions in about one minute. You could literally do it live if you wanted to.
… ready to be configured for you. And once you realize that all your… By the way, we should almost time this. You can be up and running. You have to answer, like, five questions in about one minute. You could literally do it live if you wanted to.
Lex Fridman
Oh, Omarchy, beautiful, modern opinion Linux by DHH. Yeah, let’s do it.
Oh, Omarchy, beautiful, modern opinion Linux by DHH. Yeah, let’s do it.
DHH
Yeah, fill it out while I talk. So-
Yeah, fill it out while I talk. So-
Lex Fridman
Cool
Cool
DHH
… exactly what you realized, that pain on the Mac was the exposure I got for about a weekend, and I tried really hard, and I found some decent workarounds, the main one being that Homebrew now has tabs for GUI apps. Because it’s hilarious to think upon the recent past where people would go to websites, like, “I need Zoom.” They would enter zoom.com, find the download link, download a DMG- … double-click on that, see a weird manual interaction telling them to drag an icon from one place of the screen to the other, and that was how you installed apps. And you’d just do that over and over again until you had all the apps that you wanted, and if you were setting up a new machine and you had, like, 12 apps, you’d go to 12 different websites to download them like a total caveman.
… exactly what you realized, that pain on the Mac was the exposure I got for about a weekend, and I tried really hard, and I found some decent workarounds, the main one being that Homebrew now has tabs for GUI apps. Because it’s hilarious to think upon the recent past where people would go to websites, like, “I need Zoom.” They would enter zoom.com, find the download link, download a DMG- … double-click on that, see a weird manual interaction telling them to drag an icon from one place of the screen to the other, and that was how you installed apps. And you’d just do that over and over again until you had all the apps that you wanted, and if you were setting up a new machine and you had, like, 12 apps, you’d go to 12 different websites to download them like a total caveman.
DHH
Homebrew has solved a lot of that, but it has not solved all of it, and has solved nothing in terms of the-
Homebrew has solved a lot of that, but it has not solved all of it, and has solved nothing in terms of the-
Lex Fridman
Sorry to interrupt, but look how fast this is going.
Sorry to interrupt, but look how fast this is going.
DHH
Oh, it’s gonna be done in about 40 seconds. And then you’re gonna be inside of Omarchy.
Oh, it’s gonna be done in about 40 seconds. And then you’re gonna be inside of Omarchy.
Lex Fridman
Super is the Windows or Command key on your keyboard. So which one is the Super key?
Super is the Windows or Command key on your keyboard. So which one is the Super key?
DHH
Yep, that’s the Windows key. Oh, actually, no, no, you have a special edition.
Yep, that’s the Windows key. Oh, actually, no, no, you have a special edition.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
There are only about six of these computers in the world.
There are only about six of these computers in the world.
Lex Fridman
Oh, there’s a Super key.
Oh, there’s a Super key.
DHH
It says Super, and look at where the Copilot key is on the other end of the keyboard. That’s the Omarchy logo.
It says Super, and look at where the Copilot key is on the other end of the keyboard. That’s the Omarchy logo.
Lex Fridman
Nice. Okay, cool.
Nice. Okay, cool.
DHH
This was Spencer Bull at Dell, who I’ve been working with on a lot of this stuff. They’ve been incredible.
This was Spencer Bull at Dell, who I’ve been working with on a lot of this stuff. They’ve been incredible.
Lex Fridman
They, for a moment, let go of the XPS brand.
They, for a moment, let go of the XPS brand.
DHH
Yes, they did, last year.
Yes, they did, last year.
Lex Fridman
And I was like, “This is dumb. This is… XPS is awesome.”
And I was like, “This is dumb. This is… XPS is awesome.”
DHH
It was not just dumb that it got rid of the XPS branding. They also got rid of the Escape key and put in capacitive touch buttons at the top. The mistake that Apple realized like three years ago was terrible, and everyone hated them for them. But now they have an incredible team, and this was actually my first Dell laptop for myself.
It was not just dumb that it got rid of the XPS branding. They also got rid of the Escape key and put in capacitive touch buttons at the top. The mistake that Apple realized like three years ago was terrible, and everyone hated them for them. But now they have an incredible team, and this was actually my first Dell laptop for myself.
DHH
Because I’ve been using Dell on our servers. Dell was what powered our cloud exit. We’ve been running Dell since the mid-2000s, I think. But I never ran their laptops, because compared to a MacBook, they just weren’t up to the task for me. The XPS’ from 2016, or from 2026, with those Intel Panther Lake chips, are the first Dells that I would personally actually use. And it’s funny because when I got mad at Apple originally, I thought, like, “Do you know what? I should just get a Dell,” because we already used them and whatever, and I got a Dell, and I was like, “Man, I can’t do it. I can’t do it. It’s not good enough.” And then lo and behold, this year they just fixed everything. They fixed the battery life. They fixed the performance.
Because I’ve been using Dell on our servers. Dell was what powered our cloud exit. We’ve been running Dell since the mid-2000s, I think. But I never ran their laptops, because compared to a MacBook, they just weren’t up to the task for me. The XPS’ from 2016, or from 2026, with those Intel Panther Lake chips, are the first Dells that I would personally actually use. And it’s funny because when I got mad at Apple originally, I thought, like, “Do you know what? I should just get a Dell,” because we already used them and whatever, and I got a Dell, and I was like, “Man, I can’t do it. I can’t do it. It’s not good enough.” And then lo and behold, this year they just fixed everything. They fixed the battery life. They fixed the performance.
DHH
They fixed the compatibility. They fixed the weight. They fixed the screen. That’s a tandem OLED screen-
They fixed the compatibility. They fixed the weight. They fixed the screen. That’s a tandem OLED screen-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, that’s incredible.
Yeah, that’s incredible.
DHH
… which means it’s actually better tech than what you’ll get in a freaking MacBook. It’s lighter than a MacBook, and the chip is finally competitive because Intel spent a good five years developing the 18A process node. It took a long time, but now it’s here, and it’s freaking incredible. We finally have competition to Apple M chips- … that can go as long as on battery and can have competitive performance.
… which means it’s actually better tech than what you’ll get in a freaking MacBook. It’s lighter than a MacBook, and the chip is finally competitive because Intel spent a good five years developing the 18A process node. It took a long time, but now it’s here, and it’s freaking incredible. We finally have competition to Apple M chips- … that can go as long as on battery and can have competitive performance.
Lex Fridman
And there’s a beautiful default theme to this thing, and then what is it? Super Space opens up.
And there’s a beautiful default theme to this thing, and then what is it? Super Space opens up.
DHH
Actually, you can just push the Omarchy key. It opens up the menu. So now you control everything from there.
Actually, you can just push the Omarchy key. It opens up the menu. So now you control everything from there.
Lex Fridman
Oh, same thing as the Super. Okay. Cool.
Oh, same thing as the Super. Okay. Cool.
DHH
Same thing as Super Space. So this has been a huge change for me, that we finally have Linux machines that you don’t have to make excuses for. Because I don’t mind making excuses because excuses are really just another word for trade-offs. I love that Framework 13 I think I talked about last time. I still like them. They still make good computers. But I think for a lot of people, they didn’t want a DIY experience. They wanted something that just out of the box felt like it was on par in build quality and whatever with Macs, and now we finally have it. So happy birthday.
Same thing as Super Space. So this has been a huge change for me, that we finally have Linux machines that you don’t have to make excuses for. Because I don’t mind making excuses because excuses are really just another word for trade-offs. I love that Framework 13 I think I talked about last time. I still like them. They still make good computers. But I think for a lot of people, they didn’t want a DIY experience. They wanted something that just out of the box felt like it was on par in build quality and whatever with Macs, and now we finally have it. So happy birthday.
Lex Fridman
Thank you so much. An Omarchy Dell laptop from DHH is the best birthday present. This is awesome.
Thank you so much. An Omarchy Dell laptop from DHH is the best birthday present. This is awesome.
DHH
Check the screensaver, by the way.
Check the screensaver, by the way.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s kind of amazing. I’m seeing it.
Yeah, it’s kind of amazing. I’m seeing it.
DHH
On that tandem OLED screen-
On that tandem OLED screen-
Lex Fridman
It’s gorgeous.
It’s gorgeous.
DHH
… it is absolutely mind-bogglingly awesome.
… it is absolutely mind-bogglingly awesome.
Lex Fridman
Look at that. There’s like a retro look to the whole thing. It’s like Fiverr pop-
Look at that. There’s like a retro look to the whole thing. It’s like Fiverr pop-
DHH
It’s like running a bulletin board system in- … the ’90s, which is exactly what I did when I was 14 years old. So for me, it’s a complete throwback and an awesome aesthetic, combining this sense of modern rising culture in Unix with- … this throwback of the ’90s.
It’s like running a bulletin board system in- … the ’90s, which is exactly what I did when I was 14 years old. So for me, it’s a complete throwback and an awesome aesthetic, combining this sense of modern rising culture in Unix with- … this throwback of the ’90s.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, like a retro look for an agent first OS. It’s crazy.
Yeah, like a retro look for an agent first OS. It’s crazy.
DHH
Which again, pairs… This was why I was so excited that- … all these agent harnesses arrived as TUI’s, arrived as CLIs- … has arrived as a terminal because suddenly, a whole new generation of both programmers and regular users discovered the glory of the terminal. The terminal was actually one of the most impressive and productive user interfaces we can have. Now, we’ve built user interfaces since then that were easier to learn. The mouse is a wonderful invention for letting someone who doesn’t know a lot about computers just click around and find things out, but the terminal is for people who want to learn their systems, who wanna learn the keyboard commands.
Which again, pairs… This was why I was so excited that- … all these agent harnesses arrived as TUI’s, arrived as CLIs- … has arrived as a terminal because suddenly, a whole new generation of both programmers and regular users discovered the glory of the terminal. The terminal was actually one of the most impressive and productive user interfaces we can have. Now, we’ve built user interfaces since then that were easier to learn. The mouse is a wonderful invention for letting someone who doesn’t know a lot about computers just click around and find things out, but the terminal is for people who want to learn their systems, who wanna learn the keyboard commands.
Lex Fridman
So you think the TUI is gonna stick around?
So you think the TUI is gonna stick around?
DHH
100%. Now, it’s not gonna be the only thing. Of course it’s not, because these labs now have trillion dollar valuations, so they need to be able to reach billions of people. And I don’t think we’re gonna teach billions of people the intricacies of the TUI. So we’re gonna have other tools, and we already have other tools, which is, by the way, one of the sweet things about Linux, the ChatGPT Codex tool.
100%. Now, it’s not gonna be the only thing. Of course it’s not, because these labs now have trillion dollar valuations, so they need to be able to reach billions of people. And I don’t think we’re gonna teach billions of people the intricacies of the TUI. So we’re gonna have other tools, and we already have other tools, which is, by the way, one of the sweet things about Linux, the ChatGPT Codex tool.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I saw that.
Yeah, I saw that.
DHH
Literally within two hours of that announcement dropping, I had it wrapped up and ready to go in Omachi. Already now, if you go to… You can actually hit the Omachi key- … and then just write ChatGPT. It should pop up as, like, install.
Literally within two hours of that announcement dropping, I had it wrapped up and ready to go in Omachi. Already now, if you go to… You can actually hit the Omachi key- … and then just write ChatGPT. It should pop up as, like, install.
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
DHH
And then just hit return.
And then just hit return.
Lex Fridman
Sudo password for Lex.
Sudo password for Lex.
DHH
Yeah, whatever you put in. And then it’s just gonna install it, and it’s gonna pop it up, and you have ChatGPT.
Yeah, whatever you put in. And then it’s just gonna install it, and it’s gonna pop it up, and you have ChatGPT.
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
DHH
And that’s how a lot of the apps are, and all the agentic harnesses are built in that way. Tailscale, as I talked about, if you wanna hop on that, is that way. Dropbox. And the reason all these things are in there is because I use them. It’s because I built this system for me, and I thought, first and foremost, how do I build my dream computer just for me? And if I get my dream computer, I am assured there are other people who are gonna have the same dreams as I do.
And that’s how a lot of the apps are, and all the agentic harnesses are built in that way. Tailscale, as I talked about, if you wanna hop on that, is that way. Dropbox. And the reason all these things are in there is because I use them. It’s because I built this system for me, and I thought, first and foremost, how do I build my dream computer just for me? And if I get my dream computer, I am assured there are other people who are gonna have the same dreams as I do.
Lex Fridman
Now, you’re obsessed about getting the installation to be under one minute, and a bunch of people asked you online why. So why? Why were you so obsessed to getting the installation to be less than 60 seconds?
Now, you’re obsessed about getting the installation to be under one minute, and a bunch of people asked you online why. So why? Why were you so obsessed to getting the installation to be less than 60 seconds?
DHH
First, let me quote Michel Hashimoto, who created Ghostty terminal that’s awesome and also available on Omachi and was also the founder of HashiCorp, who had this great post on X not too long ago that had the killer line, “The pursuit of excellence deserves no explanation.” Wanting to make something as good and as fast and as beautiful as possible has no need for justification.
First, let me quote Michel Hashimoto, who created Ghostty terminal that’s awesome and also available on Omachi and was also the founder of HashiCorp, who had this great post on X not too long ago that had the killer line, “The pursuit of excellence deserves no explanation.” Wanting to make something as good and as fast and as beautiful as possible has no need for justification.
DHH
We should want beautiful, fast systems that are a delight to use. Now, the funny thing with the install time is it didn’t actually start with a one-minute mission. I was being modest when it got going. I thought if I could set up my entire system in 15 minutes, it would already be such a dramatic improvement over what came before it that I would be perfectly happy. And it came off the fact that the benchmarking had been skewed so out of whack. You talked about the Commodore 64 being your first computer, right?
We should want beautiful, fast systems that are a delight to use. Now, the funny thing with the install time is it didn’t actually start with a one-minute mission. I was being modest when it got going. I thought if I could set up my entire system in 15 minutes, it would already be such a dramatic improvement over what came before it that I would be perfectly happy. And it came off the fact that the benchmarking had been skewed so out of whack. You talked about the Commodore 64 being your first computer, right?
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
DHH
When you unwrap that Commodore 64 and you hit the on button, in I think about less than one second, the basic interpreter was ready to accept your command. It was literally almost instant. There was virtually no boot time. Do you know how long it took me to set up a new Mac that I had bought for actually the one app that I still haven’t vibe coded my way into on Linux, which is Adobe Lightroom?
When you unwrap that Commodore 64 and you hit the on button, in I think about less than one second, the basic interpreter was ready to accept your command. It was literally almost instant. There was virtually no boot time. Do you know how long it took me to set up a new Mac that I had bought for actually the one app that I still haven’t vibe coded my way into on Linux, which is Adobe Lightroom?
DHH
Brand-new computer, out of the box. I set it up. There’s a software update. Before I was ready to install Adobe Lightroom that I had it fully up to date, it took 42 minutes. That’s grotesque. That’s absurd. That’s an insult to everyone who likes computers, that you get a new computer and before you can use it, you have to spend 42 minutes doing updates… on something that was already installed on it out of the box from the factory. That is just preposterous, and it’s crazy that that’s not even the worst thing. I also got a PC because all these Linux machines, they come as PCs, right?
Brand-new computer, out of the box. I set it up. There’s a software update. Before I was ready to install Adobe Lightroom that I had it fully up to date, it took 42 minutes. That’s grotesque. That’s absurd. That’s an insult to everyone who likes computers, that you get a new computer and before you can use it, you have to spend 42 minutes doing updates… on something that was already installed on it out of the box from the factory. That is just preposterous, and it’s crazy that that’s not even the worst thing. I also got a PC because all these Linux machines, they come as PCs, right?
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
DHH
And they have Windows pre-installed. So I got one. This was just three weeks ago. Brand-new machine, Intel Panther Lake, the whole shebang. An hour and 35 minutes from unwrapping the thing until it’s ready to use. How long did you take before you think you were in Omarchy?
And they have Windows pre-installed. So I got one. This was just three weeks ago. Brand-new machine, Intel Panther Lake, the whole shebang. An hour and 35 minutes from unwrapping the thing until it’s ready to use. How long did you take before you think you were in Omarchy?
Lex Fridman
I mean, it’s less than a minute for sure.
I mean, it’s less than a minute for sure.
DHH
A minute.
A minute.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
We can build computers like this. We have the technology. We’ve had the technology since like 1981 when the Commodore 64 first came out. The fact that we now have a computer that’s a trillion times faster and you have to spend 42 minutes or an hour and a half setting it up before it’s ready to use is so infuriating to me that it became a passion. And it’s funny, just while we were having a little break here, I was talking to Ryan Hughes, my co-conspirator here. We now have, we think, a line where we can create these special turbo images that are pre-made for specific computers because it relies on some knowledge of the hardware, like the Dell XPS. We’re gonna make a Dell XPS turbo image that can install in about 12 seconds. A full Linux system-
We can build computers like this. We have the technology. We’ve had the technology since like 1981 when the Commodore 64 first came out. The fact that we now have a computer that’s a trillion times faster and you have to spend 42 minutes or an hour and a half setting it up before it’s ready to use is so infuriating to me that it became a passion. And it’s funny, just while we were having a little break here, I was talking to Ryan Hughes, my co-conspirator here. We now have, we think, a line where we can create these special turbo images that are pre-made for specific computers because it relies on some knowledge of the hardware, like the Dell XPS. We’re gonna make a Dell XPS turbo image that can install in about 12 seconds. A full Linux system-
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
DHH
… installed in about 12 seconds.
… installed in about 12 seconds.
Lex Fridman
That’s incredible.
That’s incredible.
DHH
That obsession is what gives me this great satisfaction with using computers, that we do not accept things the way they are. And this is why this agent-accelerated reality that I now inhabit is so invigorating. Because I can look at these kinds of constraints and go, do you know what? I could have stopped when we were at five minutes. That would already have been fast enough. This was the argument on X, right? Why do you keep going? Five minutes is fast enough. Okay, maybe for you, but for me, 12 seconds is a lot more fun. And I always think, try to think these first principles. Okay, in that machine, actually hit the Omarchy key again, and then do speed. You’ll see a list come up, and one of them is, like, disk speed.
That obsession is what gives me this great satisfaction with using computers, that we do not accept things the way they are. And this is why this agent-accelerated reality that I now inhabit is so invigorating. Because I can look at these kinds of constraints and go, do you know what? I could have stopped when we were at five minutes. That would already have been fast enough. This was the argument on X, right? Why do you keep going? Five minutes is fast enough. Okay, maybe for you, but for me, 12 seconds is a lot more fun. And I always think, try to think these first principles. Okay, in that machine, actually hit the Omarchy key again, and then do speed. You’ll see a list come up, and one of them is, like, disk speed.
Lex Fridman
Speed test, network speed, disk speed.
Speed test, network speed, disk speed.
DHH
Disk speed. Do that one, and then run it. So this is testing the performance of the built-in NVMe drive, and what are you getting?
Disk speed. Do that one, and then run it. So this is testing the performance of the built-in NVMe drive, and what are you getting?
Lex Fridman
Seven GB a second.
Seven GB a second.
DHH
So seven gigabytes a second. That’s how fast that drive is. Why can we not install a Linux distribution in one second? The Omarchy distribution is 5.8 gigabytes. If we can run at seven gig… Now, of course, you can’t actually do that because the USB key is a lot slower than that, but you should be able to maximize the underlying physics and protocols that we’re dealing with, and that’s your goal. We gotta get all the way back down to that.
So seven gigabytes a second. That’s how fast that drive is. Why can we not install a Linux distribution in one second? The Omarchy distribution is 5.8 gigabytes. If we can run at seven gig… Now, of course, you can’t actually do that because the USB key is a lot slower than that, but you should be able to maximize the underlying physics and protocols that we’re dealing with, and that’s your goal. We gotta get all the way back down to that.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I love that you’re doing a Linux distribution. ‘Cause I mean, you could be do… You could be building anything. But the fact that you’re building a Linux distribution means you’re rethinking about what a computer is, ’cause a operating system is the fundamental, like, the foundation of how-
Yeah. I love that you’re doing a Linux distribution. ‘Cause I mean, you could be do… You could be building anything. But the fact that you’re building a Linux distribution means you’re rethinking about what a computer is, ’cause a operating system is the fundamental, like, the foundation of how-
DHH
Yes
Yes
Lex Fridman
… you interact with a computer.
… you interact with a computer.
DHH
Yes. And it’s been so stale.
Yes. And it’s been so stale.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it has.
Yeah, it has.
DHH
The macOS we have today is scarcely different from the macOS we had 10 years ago. In fact, it’s worse in many ways because Apple continues to chokehold the control on users. They don’t want them to install software that they haven’t already said good- … to go for. They don’t want users to reconfigure their hotkeys without doing it manually. They didn’t want to change the 500-millisecond animation switching workspaces. It is an infuriatingly locked-down computer. Now, to Apple’s credit, it’s a pretty good computer for being locked down, but I don’t want a locked-down computer. I wanna own my computer. Better yet, I wanna mutate my computer, and this is where the agentic age needs a new operating system.
The macOS we have today is scarcely different from the macOS we had 10 years ago. In fact, it’s worse in many ways because Apple continues to chokehold the control on users. They don’t want them to install software that they haven’t already said good- … to go for. They don’t want users to reconfigure their hotkeys without doing it manually. They didn’t want to change the 500-millisecond animation switching workspaces. It is an infuriatingly locked-down computer. Now, to Apple’s credit, it’s a pretty good computer for being locked down, but I don’t want a locked-down computer. I wanna own my computer. Better yet, I wanna mutate my computer, and this is where the agentic age needs a new operating system.
DHH
When you can vibe code whatever app comes to your mind, you should be able to vibe code your operating system. You should be able to change anything, how it looks, how it works, what panels are there, what are not there, and that requires Linux. As simple as that. There are no… None of the other two operating systems can deliver this.
When you can vibe code whatever app comes to your mind, you should be able to vibe code your operating system. You should be able to change anything, how it looks, how it works, what panels are there, what are not there, and that requires Linux. As simple as that. There are no… None of the other two operating systems can deliver this.
Lex Fridman
But can you speak to the, I think somebody asked you, like, “Who the hell are you to think you could do better than Ubuntu?” For example. Or like, “Why are you doing it when Ubuntu is already pretty good?” And your answer was, “I thought I could do better.” So can you speak to, this was on X, can you speak to, like, where the craziness comes from, thinking that you as one person or maybe with Ryan, you could start building something that’s going to be better than Ubuntu or Arch or any of this?
But can you speak to the, I think somebody asked you, like, “Who the hell are you to think you could do better than Ubuntu?” For example. Or like, “Why are you doing it when Ubuntu is already pretty good?” And your answer was, “I thought I could do better.” So can you speak to, this was on X, can you speak to, like, where the craziness comes from, thinking that you as one person or maybe with Ryan, you could start building something that’s going to be better than Ubuntu or Arch or any of this?
DHH
Well, I’ll say that it didn’t start quite as grandiose. When I got going with my Linux journey, I actually just started with Ubuntu, and I just built on top of it. Here’s a system that already does a lot of the things I wanted to do, and at least it’s Linux. So can I just build on top of it and make it more modern, make it actually look good, and have the programs I wanna use? I got, like, some version of that, and then I discovered that there’s seven layers deeper you could go, and as, the closer you get to the metal, the closer you get to the kernel, the closer you get to the individual packages and so forth, the more freedom you discover.
Well, I’ll say that it didn’t start quite as grandiose. When I got going with my Linux journey, I actually just started with Ubuntu, and I just built on top of it. Here’s a system that already does a lot of the things I wanted to do, and at least it’s Linux. So can I just build on top of it and make it more modern, make it actually look good, and have the programs I wanna use? I got, like, some version of that, and then I discovered that there’s seven layers deeper you could go, and as, the closer you get to the metal, the closer you get to the kernel, the closer you get to the individual packages and so forth, the more freedom you discover.
DHH
So as I discovered more and more freedom, I got more and more ambitious, and I realized, oh, surprise, surprise, I have strong opinions about how computers should work, how they should look, what programs should be installed, and whether they should take 42 minutes to install or 45 seconds. That’s the current world record, by the way. So if anyone installs Omarchy Quattro after this and can beat 45 seconds, take a screenshot, send it to me, and you’ll be the new holder of the world record.
So as I discovered more and more freedom, I got more and more ambitious, and I realized, oh, surprise, surprise, I have strong opinions about how computers should work, how they should look, what programs should be installed, and whether they should take 42 minutes to install or 45 seconds. That’s the current world record, by the way. So if anyone installs Omarchy Quattro after this and can beat 45 seconds, take a screenshot, send it to me, and you’ll be the new holder of the world record.
Lex Fridman
When—how long ago did you cross the 60-second mark?
When—how long ago did you cross the 60-second mark?
DHH
It’s funny because it’s like that the old limit on, what was it? It was a four-minute mile or something- … like that in 1952- … that people thought was impossible for humans to beat. Then one guy beats it, and literally within the next few months, three more guys do, right? So we had this goal. I originally had the goal, it was two minutes.
It’s funny because it’s like that the old limit on, what was it? It was a four-minute mile or something- … like that in 1952- … that people thought was impossible for humans to beat. Then one guy beats it, and literally within the next few months, three more guys do, right? So we had this goal. I originally had the goal, it was two minutes.
DHH
And then we beat two minutes, and I’m like, “Well, if we beat two minutes, why can’t we beat one minute?” And I remember thinking like, “That’d be crazy. You can’t install a modern operating system in one minute when they’re all…” If the other ones are taking 42 minutes, right? Like Apple, full of a lot of smart people, like, it took 42 minutes, so that’s gotta be the bar. No, no, it’s not the bar because there’s no speed limit. Like, none of the things you take for granted are fixed pillars of reality in almost any case. Until you get down to the seven gigabytes per second that drive is able to transfer, you’ve not reached the limit yet, so you should just keep pushing. And of course, then it becomes a game in itself and a satisfaction itself.
And then we beat two minutes, and I’m like, “Well, if we beat two minutes, why can’t we beat one minute?” And I remember thinking like, “That’d be crazy. You can’t install a modern operating system in one minute when they’re all…” If the other ones are taking 42 minutes, right? Like Apple, full of a lot of smart people, like, it took 42 minutes, so that’s gotta be the bar. No, no, it’s not the bar because there’s no speed limit. Like, none of the things you take for granted are fixed pillars of reality in almost any case. Until you get down to the seven gigabytes per second that drive is able to transfer, you’ve not reached the limit yet, so you should just keep pushing. And of course, then it becomes a game in itself and a satisfaction itself.
DHH
Every second I could shave off was an excitement. And when we broke the one-minute barrier, which was really only broken, I think, three weeks ago or something like that, maybe even two weeks ago, I just got crazy. And then I got a swarm of agents to run all these auto research loops of trying all these different theories on like, oh, if you change this thing, if you change that thing, what if you cut this out? What if you do things in parallel? What if while you were typing in your username, we start preloading packages into memory system, we can fire them in faster. And it becomes a fun game. And I think that’s how you should think about product development. It should be fun. You should, it should be frivolous.
Every second I could shave off was an excitement. And when we broke the one-minute barrier, which was really only broken, I think, three weeks ago or something like that, maybe even two weeks ago, I just got crazy. And then I got a swarm of agents to run all these auto research loops of trying all these different theories on like, oh, if you change this thing, if you change that thing, what if you cut this out? What if you do things in parallel? What if while you were typing in your username, we start preloading packages into memory system, we can fire them in faster. And it becomes a fun game. And I think that’s how you should think about product development. It should be fun. You should, it should be frivolous.
DHH
It should be trying to overshoot the target and making it so much better than what it, quote unquote, needs to be.
It should be trying to overshoot the target and making it so much better than what it, quote unquote, needs to be.
Lex Fridman
Especially now because you can move so quickly and you can try so many different approaches because of the agents.
Especially now because you can move so quickly and you can try so many different approaches because of the agents.
DHH
Yes, that just makes it more satisfying. But I think this was always true. If you look at the greatest Mercedes-Benz of all time, I think it was called the W126. I saw this wonderful documentary on it. It was steered by this guy who for years had worked in Mercedes’ department for safety. And suddenly he gets put in charge for the whole S-Class project, and he just puts in all of it. This is where you got the auto-retending seat belts and washers on the headlights and everything. This car was so overbuilt for the market.
Yes, that just makes it more satisfying. But I think this was always true. If you look at the greatest Mercedes-Benz of all time, I think it was called the W126. I saw this wonderful documentary on it. It was steered by this guy who for years had worked in Mercedes’ department for safety. And suddenly he gets put in charge for the whole S-Class project, and he just puts in all of it. This is where you got the auto-retending seat belts and washers on the headlights and everything. This car was so overbuilt for the market.
DHH
It was unbelievable. But you look at that and go like, “Well, I want that.” In just the same way that you look at a mechanical watch and go, “It could go down to 100 meters?” Or, or I think Rolex has one that can go down to 4,000 meters, the, the deep ocean, the deep diver ocean- … or whatever it’s called. No one outside of three people in the world, whoever buy that watch, will ever put it to the test. But don’t you wanna be the kind of person who is a patron of people who wanna push the human race that much forward? I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds.
It was unbelievable. But you look at that and go like, “Well, I want that.” In just the same way that you look at a mechanical watch and go, “It could go down to 100 meters?” Or, or I think Rolex has one that can go down to 4,000 meters, the, the deep ocean, the deep diver ocean- … or whatever it’s called. No one outside of three people in the world, whoever buy that watch, will ever put it to the test. But don’t you wanna be the kind of person who is a patron of people who wanna push the human race that much forward? I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds.
Lex Fridman
So from the individual level, I admire those people. I think everybody should strive for that. But also the consequences of that we should mention, like the pursuit of excellence, even when the metrics seem to be frivolous, the maybe unexpected consequences of that is other kinds of excellences, discoveries, innovations, and all that kind of stuff that has nothing to do with the speed.
So from the individual level, I admire those people. I think everybody should strive for that. But also the consequences of that we should mention, like the pursuit of excellence, even when the metrics seem to be frivolous, the maybe unexpected consequences of that is other kinds of excellences, discoveries, innovations, and all that kind of stuff that has nothing to do with the speed.
DHH
100%.
100%.
Lex Fridman
It’s discovery. It’s nice to have the metric that you’re chasing be the catalyst, the engine that drives innovation, because you’ll just discover. It’s the same reason you go to the moon, you go to Mars. It’s like, why? Who cares? Well, actually, the real thing is you’ll discover a lot about chemical propulsion. You’ll discover a lot about how humans can live for a long time in space. Maybe you’ll discover whole new ways of doing solar energy in space or data centers in space or whatever the hell.
It’s discovery. It’s nice to have the metric that you’re chasing be the catalyst, the engine that drives innovation, because you’ll just discover. It’s the same reason you go to the moon, you go to Mars. It’s like, why? Who cares? Well, actually, the real thing is you’ll discover a lot about chemical propulsion. You’ll discover a lot about how humans can live for a long time in space. Maybe you’ll discover whole new ways of doing solar energy in space or data centers in space or whatever the hell.
DHH
That’s right.
That’s right.
Lex Fridman
All kinds of… Maybe you’ll meet-
All kinds of… Maybe you’ll meet-
DHH
That’s right.
That’s right.
Lex Fridman
… aliens, but you never know. But setting a goal and chasing it, especially when it’s numerical, is really nice.
… aliens, but you never know. But setting a goal and chasing it, especially when it’s numerical, is really nice.
DHH
And setting a grand goal is even better. When you refuse to just do what’s practical and you strive for what’s slightly beyond plausible, that’s when the magic happens. And we should be going all in on that. This is one of the reasons… And in fact, to some degree, this specific goal was motivated by seeing others do this. I mean, Elon is the singular individual in this conversation. The guy is so out there in his goals. They seem so preposterous at first glance. I’ve certainly considered them preposterous on many glances. And then you realize that they come true sometimes. Maybe not always on schedule, and so what? So what? So we didn’t get the self-driving car on schedule. I gave Elon a lot of shit for that back in ’17.
And setting a grand goal is even better. When you refuse to just do what’s practical and you strive for what’s slightly beyond plausible, that’s when the magic happens. And we should be going all in on that. This is one of the reasons… And in fact, to some degree, this specific goal was motivated by seeing others do this. I mean, Elon is the singular individual in this conversation. The guy is so out there in his goals. They seem so preposterous at first glance. I’ve certainly considered them preposterous on many glances. And then you realize that they come true sometimes. Maybe not always on schedule, and so what? So what? So we didn’t get the self-driving car on schedule. I gave Elon a lot of shit for that back in ’17.
DHH
But now it’s here, and who would have gotten us here except for the person who thought it was possible in ’17, who is so impatient with reality that the sheer force is just gonna propel that reality to the place he wants it to be. I think that’s deeply inspiring, and we need these kinds of goalposts to be moved. We need someone to run the four-minute mile, so the rest of us realize, “Well, okay, but I guess I can run it quicker.” That’s what I try to strive for, and I really strive for with Omarchy because it’s just more fun to live that way, to have high aspirations and ambitions. And I will say I’ve actually changed my mind on that a little bit. I spent quite a lot of time speaking the other book that there are a lot of people who don’t actually need those ambitions.
But now it’s here, and who would have gotten us here except for the person who thought it was possible in ’17, who is so impatient with reality that the sheer force is just gonna propel that reality to the place he wants it to be. I think that’s deeply inspiring, and we need these kinds of goalposts to be moved. We need someone to run the four-minute mile, so the rest of us realize, “Well, okay, but I guess I can run it quicker.” That’s what I try to strive for, and I really strive for with Omarchy because it’s just more fun to live that way, to have high aspirations and ambitions. And I will say I’ve actually changed my mind on that a little bit. I spent quite a lot of time speaking the other book that there are a lot of people who don’t actually need those ambitions.
DHH
And I also– That’s also true. We don’t want 8 billion Elons running around the world. Would be rather crazy, I think. But I’ve come to realize that for entrepreneurs, it’s healthy to have suitable chunky goals. The idea of just running the Italian restaurant can’t just be that. It should be maybe I just run the one Italian restaurant, but I make the best damn pizza possible. I make the most delicious Parmesan. We have to strive for excellence to muster the motivation to keep going.
And I also– That’s also true. We don’t want 8 billion Elons running around the world. Would be rather crazy, I think. But I’ve come to realize that for entrepreneurs, it’s healthy to have suitable chunky goals. The idea of just running the Italian restaurant can’t just be that. It should be maybe I just run the one Italian restaurant, but I make the best damn pizza possible. I make the most delicious Parmesan. We have to strive for excellence to muster the motivation to keep going.
Lex Fridman
And yeah, to dare to think big like you could build a Linux-
And yeah, to dare to think big like you could build a Linux-
Voice prompting vs typing
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
… distribution. Is there some stuff you remember about what it took to get us to be so fast? You mentioned a few things that were, the agents were discovering.
… distribution. Is there some stuff you remember about what it took to get us to be so fast? You mentioned a few things that were, the agents were discovering.
DHH
One of the things was to treat the lag of human input as an opportunity to preload. So there’s five questions you answer when you set up an Omarchy machine. So it’s doing stuff in the background. We’re doing stuff in the background. And that was one of the things I didn’t even consider, which is, I mean, the oldest trick in the book. All sorts of video games for a long time have done this, where you let the player interact with something, and then you do preloading and so forth in the background. So it’s an age-old technique, but I just hadn’t thought about it for an installer.
One of the things was to treat the lag of human input as an opportunity to preload. So there’s five questions you answer when you set up an Omarchy machine. So it’s doing stuff in the background. We’re doing stuff in the background. And that was one of the things I didn’t even consider, which is, I mean, the oldest trick in the book. All sorts of video games for a long time have done this, where you let the player interact with something, and then you do preloading and so forth in the background. So it’s an age-old technique, but I just hadn’t thought about it for an installer.
DHH
I thought, first you ask the user some questions about their password and their username and their time zone and so forth, and then you do the work, when, in fact, you could preload that. Now, the other things were just a bunch of other tweaks to how the installer itself was doing things in a certain order. Some of them was also just shrinking it. The last version of Omarchy was 7.5 gigabytes, and a lot of the time we’re down to now is literally decompressing compressed package files. That’s the bulk of what the- is on the ISO, and that’s the bulk of the install time. So by shrinking it down to, I think we’re at 5.85 gigabytes now, a pretty chunky reduction, it almost literally translated one-to-one, and I did some really interesting things there.
I thought, first you ask the user some questions about their password and their username and their time zone and so forth, and then you do the work, when, in fact, you could preload that. Now, the other things were just a bunch of other tweaks to how the installer itself was doing things in a certain order. Some of them was also just shrinking it. The last version of Omarchy was 7.5 gigabytes, and a lot of the time we’re down to now is literally decompressing compressed package files. That’s the bulk of what the- is on the ISO, and that’s the bulk of the install time. So by shrinking it down to, I think we’re at 5.85 gigabytes now, a pretty chunky reduction, it almost literally translated one-to-one, and I did some really interesting things there.
DHH
So Omarchy uses the JetBrains font, which is an awesome font, beautiful font, and actually a font I didn’t like at first glance, but then it was the only font I could get to look perfect in Mitchell Hashimoto’s Ghostty. Ghostty, for whatever reason, did not wanna render my beloved Bitstream Vera Sans just the way I was used to it. Mm-hmm. But it rendered this JetBrains font perfectly, so I switched over. But it… The standard package for JetBrains font on Arch is 200 megabytes because it includes all these variations and all these subtypes and whatever. And I realized, like, we’re not using any of that. We’re using the monospace version in this one Nerd Font patched edition. Do you know how big that is? I think it’s 16 megabytes. Hmm.
So Omarchy uses the JetBrains font, which is an awesome font, beautiful font, and actually a font I didn’t like at first glance, but then it was the only font I could get to look perfect in Mitchell Hashimoto’s Ghostty. Ghostty, for whatever reason, did not wanna render my beloved Bitstream Vera Sans just the way I was used to it. Mm-hmm. But it rendered this JetBrains font perfectly, so I switched over. But it… The standard package for JetBrains font on Arch is 200 megabytes because it includes all these variations and all these subtypes and whatever. And I realized, like, we’re not using any of that. We’re using the monospace version in this one Nerd Font patched edition. Do you know how big that is? I think it’s 16 megabytes. Hmm.
DHH
So I simply just came up with a new package, the slim version- Mm-hmm … of the JetBrains package. Nice. And there, right there, I saved 180 megabytes. I just went through and did that a bunch of times. We did that with the NVIDIA drivers too. So the NVIDIA drivers, when they came straight off the, I think the Arch repo, were not compressed with the most extreme form of compression, which I think called ZSTD, which is a really slow form of compression. It’s slow to create the archive, but if you’re building a package- Hmm … you have all the time in the world if that means you can then shrink the ISO. So on just the two NVIDIA packages, I think we saved 200 megabytes. Mm-hmm. So what I loved about this was I imagined myself being a car designer at McLaren.
So I simply just came up with a new package, the slim version- Mm-hmm … of the JetBrains package. Nice. And there, right there, I saved 180 megabytes. I just went through and did that a bunch of times. We did that with the NVIDIA drivers too. So the NVIDIA drivers, when they came straight off the, I think the Arch repo, were not compressed with the most extreme form of compression, which I think called ZSTD, which is a really slow form of compression. It’s slow to create the archive, but if you’re building a package- Hmm … you have all the time in the world if that means you can then shrink the ISO. So on just the two NVIDIA packages, I think we saved 200 megabytes. Mm-hmm. So what I loved about this was I imagined myself being a car designer at McLaren.
DHH
So McLaren makes some of the lightest super sports cars in the world right now, and they are absolutely obsessed with shaving every damn last gram off their cars. That’s why even a new 750S McLaren is just way lighter than the competition. They use a carbon fiber monocoque, and that helps them over like Ferrari, for example, that uses aluminum. But they also just have this obsession with weight, and I would see this interview with the McLaren folks talking to some journalist just going over, “Yeah, we saved 370 grams off that one.” And I just went, “Wait, what? There’s someone on a car that weighs maybe 1,040 kilos or 1,380 or something. They’re worrying about 370 grams?” Yeah. What obsessed maniacs. Yeah. I love them. Yeah. I want that in my life.
So McLaren makes some of the lightest super sports cars in the world right now, and they are absolutely obsessed with shaving every damn last gram off their cars. That’s why even a new 750S McLaren is just way lighter than the competition. They use a carbon fiber monocoque, and that helps them over like Ferrari, for example, that uses aluminum. But they also just have this obsession with weight, and I would see this interview with the McLaren folks talking to some journalist just going over, “Yeah, we saved 370 grams off that one.” And I just went, “Wait, what? There’s someone on a car that weighs maybe 1,040 kilos or 1,380 or something. They’re worrying about 370 grams?” Yeah. What obsessed maniacs. Yeah. I love them. Yeah. I want that in my life.
DHH
I want a McLaren just for that reason. So I thought in that moment as I was shaving individual megabytes off the packages, man, I’m kinda like a McLaren car developer here, even though I mean, we haven’t even completed that work. The package could shrink even more. But this is actually this other conflict that we’ve had with Omarchy and the traditional Linux community is bloat. This idea that it’s actually not kosher in certain circles to ship with pre-installed software because who are you to make decisions about what programs people should use? And I’m like, “Dude, it’s in the fucking name. It’s called Omarchy because the Oma part is short for omakase, which literally means chef’s choice. I’m the chef.
I want a McLaren just for that reason. So I thought in that moment as I was shaving individual megabytes off the packages, man, I’m kinda like a McLaren car developer here, even though I mean, we haven’t even completed that work. The package could shrink even more. But this is actually this other conflict that we’ve had with Omarchy and the traditional Linux community is bloat. This idea that it’s actually not kosher in certain circles to ship with pre-installed software because who are you to make decisions about what programs people should use? And I’m like, “Dude, it’s in the fucking name. It’s called Omarchy because the Oma part is short for omakase, which literally means chef’s choice. I’m the chef.
DHH
I’m making the choices, and this is the collection of applications I think is awesome,” which by the way has a video editor. It ships with OBS to do your recording. It’s just in there. Yeah. OBS is pre-installed. Nice. Kdenlive is a video editor, timeline editor, which is great. I edit all my videos with that. And then I made my own clip editor. You talked about the thing with syncing up. Yeah. I had this thing with clips, so I would do a podcast or whatever. I need a clip for X. And it’s kind of a hassle to use Kdenlive or other timeline editors, so I made Omacut. Omacut is included too. Omacut, cool. It’s just for making clips, and you can drive the whole thing with keyboard. So you can go to just the right time mark.
I’m making the choices, and this is the collection of applications I think is awesome,” which by the way has a video editor. It ships with OBS to do your recording. It’s just in there. Yeah. OBS is pre-installed. Nice. Kdenlive is a video editor, timeline editor, which is great. I edit all my videos with that. And then I made my own clip editor. You talked about the thing with syncing up. Yeah. I had this thing with clips, so I would do a podcast or whatever. I need a clip for X. And it’s kind of a hassle to use Kdenlive or other timeline editors, so I made Omacut. Omacut is included too. Omacut, cool. It’s just for making clips, and you can drive the whole thing with keyboard. So you can go to just the right time mark.
DHH
and then you can hit Control + Space. It moves the clip line to that line. Then you go to the end of the clip, and you hit Alt + Space, and it moves the end line. Nice. And then you hit Control + S, and it saves. Nice. I can make clips so damn fast now with Omacut. It’s amazing. But it has all the software on it. It has Neovim on it. It has Herdr on it. It has Tmux. It has a terminal. It has a bunch of themes. It has a bunch of background images, the best ones I could pick out. That takes up some space. It should because this is not supposed to be this just barren landscape where you have to reconstruct everything. This is supposed to be a productive system the minute you unpack it. What is it built in?
and then you can hit Control + Space. It moves the clip line to that line. Then you go to the end of the clip, and you hit Alt + Space, and it moves the end line. Nice. And then you hit Control + S, and it saves. Nice. I can make clips so damn fast now with Omacut. It’s amazing. But it has all the software on it. It has Neovim on it. It has Herdr on it. It has Tmux. It has a terminal. It has a bunch of themes. It has a bunch of background images, the best ones I could pick out. That takes up some space. It should because this is not supposed to be this just barren landscape where you have to reconstruct everything. This is supposed to be a productive system the minute you unpack it. What is it built in?
DHH
So it’s actually mostly built in Bash for the Linux configuration part. Right. Bash is a great language for that. It is made for that really, for system administration. It also has its limitations. You should not build everything in Bash.
So it’s actually mostly built in Bash for the Linux configuration part. Right. Bash is a great language for that. It is made for that really, for system administration. It also has its limitations. You should not build everything in Bash.
Lex Fridman
How are agents with generating Bash? Pretty good?
How are agents with generating Bash? Pretty good?
DHH
Oh, amazing.
Oh, amazing.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
DHH
Except for one thing, and I have to smack the agents over the back of the head every single time I catch it, and remind it to look at the agent’s MD file, because I will have an instruction in there not to make early exits. The agents love to have preconditions instead of fully expanded conditionals. I like something that says, “If this, then do that.” Agents like to have precondition or exit, another precondition or exit.
Except for one thing, and I have to smack the agents over the back of the head every single time I catch it, and remind it to look at the agent’s MD file, because I will have an instruction in there not to make early exits. The agents love to have preconditions instead of fully expanded conditionals. I like something that says, “If this, then do that.” Agents like to have precondition or exit, another precondition or exit.
DHH
And then it falls down to the final thing it actually wants to do. I hate that style. So except for that, it’s gotten shockingly, dramatically, awesomely good, to the point where when we talked last time, we talked about how I would ask the agent for a Bash thing, and then I would type it in myself, and I kinda wouldn’t remember. And then I took the effort to make sure that all that competence wasn’t draining out of my fingers, so I actually learned how to write Bash myself, and now I’m not writing any Bash myself. I have not written any Bash myself for probably a couple months, because the agents have just gotten so good, that if you give them the few pointers on style, and occasionally put pushback on complexity… This is… I tweeted about this a couple of days ago.
And then it falls down to the final thing it actually wants to do. I hate that style. So except for that, it’s gotten shockingly, dramatically, awesomely good, to the point where when we talked last time, we talked about how I would ask the agent for a Bash thing, and then I would type it in myself, and I kinda wouldn’t remember. And then I took the effort to make sure that all that competence wasn’t draining out of my fingers, so I actually learned how to write Bash myself, and now I’m not writing any Bash myself. I have not written any Bash myself for probably a couple months, because the agents have just gotten so good, that if you give them the few pointers on style, and occasionally put pushback on complexity… This is… I tweeted about this a couple of days ago.
DHH
It blows my mind how often an agent can do something, say it’s done, have the work reviewed by another agent- … they say it’s done, and then I go like, “Eh, looks a little too complicated for me.” And then it’ll go like, “Oh, yeah, you’re right. You’re right. I totally overcomplicated this,” and it’ll cut it in half. I’m like, “Couldn’t it just do this, like, from the outset?” And then someone else reminded me, humans are the same way. If you work on something and someone else reviews it and they just are like, “Eh, it looks a little complicated,” quite often you’re able to go like, “Ah, you’re right.”
It blows my mind how often an agent can do something, say it’s done, have the work reviewed by another agent- … they say it’s done, and then I go like, “Eh, looks a little too complicated for me.” And then it’ll go like, “Oh, yeah, you’re right. You’re right. I totally overcomplicated this,” and it’ll cut it in half. I’m like, “Couldn’t it just do this, like, from the outset?” And then someone else reminded me, humans are the same way. If you work on something and someone else reviews it and they just are like, “Eh, it looks a little complicated,” quite often you’re able to go like, “Ah, you’re right.”
Lex Fridman
See, that just… Those little indications to me show that the programmer is still needed, that intuition, ’cause I think, what did you say? I have a sense of the landscape of the code.
See, that just… Those little indications to me show that the programmer is still needed, that intuition, ’cause I think, what did you say? I have a sense of the landscape of the code.
DHH
When I build something like Omarchy, I do look at the code. I look at the shape.
When I build something like Omarchy, I do look at the code. I look at the shape.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
And I look at the proportions.
And I look at the proportions.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
Like, I don’t have to chisel everything myself anymore. This is, again, when I’m flattering myself for… Not one moment I’m a McLaren auto engineer, and the next moment I’m a da Vinci, working with his whole studio of students- … who are doing all the chiseling on the, the fine marble, right? And he goes like, “Ah, no, the proportions are not quite right.” That’s how it feels working with agents now, that I can give feedback like an editor.
Like, I don’t have to chisel everything myself anymore. This is, again, when I’m flattering myself for… Not one moment I’m a McLaren auto engineer, and the next moment I’m a da Vinci, working with his whole studio of students- … who are doing all the chiseling on the, the fine marble, right? And he goes like, “Ah, no, the proportions are not quite right.” That’s how it feels working with agents now, that I can give feedback like an editor.
DHH
That, do you know what? I’m not gonna write everything myself, but I can tell you when the argument doesn’t land. I can tell you when the shape isn’t proportional to the problem, or when it just feels like it’s too complicated. And shockingly often, it just works. It’s like the early days, where the joke was, “Don’t make mistakes.” I don’t think you have to tell the agents that anymore, because now the harnesses are so good, they run automated testing. They get that feedback. But you actually do have to tell them, “Make it simpler.”
That, do you know what? I’m not gonna write everything myself, but I can tell you when the argument doesn’t land. I can tell you when the shape isn’t proportional to the problem, or when it just feels like it’s too complicated. And shockingly often, it just works. It’s like the early days, where the joke was, “Don’t make mistakes.” I don’t think you have to tell the agents that anymore, because now the harnesses are so good, they run automated testing. They get that feedback. But you actually do have to tell them, “Make it simpler.”
Lex Fridman
Do you use voice at all for the interaction? Or are you… How much are you typing? How much are you-
Do you use voice at all for the interaction? Or are you… How much are you typing? How much are you-
DHH
I type the whole thing. I actually, in Omarchy’s built-in Voxtype- … Audio transcription, and it’s actually really good. I just find that I don’t think that way, and it surprised myself that I don’t like to talk to the computer. I like when I’m in the car, but when I’m in front of the keyboard, I just wanna type. I also just love typing. Are you using the voice?
I type the whole thing. I actually, in Omarchy’s built-in Voxtype- … Audio transcription, and it’s actually really good. I just find that I don’t think that way, and it surprised myself that I don’t like to talk to the computer. I like when I’m in the car, but when I’m in front of the keyboard, I just wanna type. I also just love typing. Are you using the voice?
Lex Fridman
I’m an introvert who doesn’t like social interaction- … or speaking. And-
I’m an introvert who doesn’t like social interaction- … or speaking. And-
DHH
I think that’s part of mine too.
I think that’s part of mine too.
Lex Fridman
But, like, for me, for some reason, voice is really powerful. I want to give this… So I run with this thing. It’s called Plaud. So I just hook it up on my, you know on my T-shirt here.
But, like, for me, for some reason, voice is really powerful. I want to give this… So I run with this thing. It’s called Plaud. So I just hook it up on my, you know on my T-shirt here.
Lex Fridman
You press a button, it starts recording. And this is actually more, in terms of flow, much better experience than behind a computer. And I save, well, usually it’s agent generated problems that I wanna really talk through. And so I write, I speak a long prompt, like, and a lot of it, it’s like stream of consciousness reasoning. So I’ll sometimes just change my mind about a design, but all of that is in there, and then I have an LLM that processes that. With Plaud, there’s a, obviously an API. You can grab it, transcribe it, clean up the transcript, ’cause you want it to be… ‘Cause I’m referring to files. I’m referring to technical concepts, like files and functions- … and so on, that you wanna make sure the transcription, the-
You press a button, it starts recording. And this is actually more, in terms of flow, much better experience than behind a computer. And I save, well, usually it’s agent generated problems that I wanna really talk through. And so I write, I speak a long prompt, like, and a lot of it, it’s like stream of consciousness reasoning. So I’ll sometimes just change my mind about a design, but all of that is in there, and then I have an LLM that processes that. With Plaud, there’s a, obviously an API. You can grab it, transcribe it, clean up the transcript, ’cause you want it to be… ‘Cause I’m referring to files. I’m referring to technical concepts, like files and functions- … and so on, that you wanna make sure the transcription, the-
Lex Fridman
… the speech-to-text gets correctly. So you wanna have a dictionary. You want it to be aware of the code base when you process the files. And then you have this gigantic thing that’s often 10, 15, 20 minute me discussing the full design, and I find that to be really, really powerful. Because it doesn’t have the problem of overspecification because of how much stream of consciousness thinking the system has about what you’re imagining. And this is really good for the early steps of a design. Like, if I wanted to build Omarchy from scratch, the first stages, I talk through. It could be an hour. There’s been prompts that I had for an hour, and I’m just running and-
… the speech-to-text gets correctly. So you wanna have a dictionary. You want it to be aware of the code base when you process the files. And then you have this gigantic thing that’s often 10, 15, 20 minute me discussing the full design, and I find that to be really, really powerful. Because it doesn’t have the problem of overspecification because of how much stream of consciousness thinking the system has about what you’re imagining. And this is really good for the early steps of a design. Like, if I wanted to build Omarchy from scratch, the first stages, I talk through. It could be an hour. There’s been prompts that I had for an hour, and I’m just running and-
DHH
That’s amazing.
That’s amazing.
Lex Fridman
… and speaking. I highly recommend people try a voice-based-
… and speaking. I highly recommend people try a voice-based-
DHH
So-
So-
Lex Fridman
… speaking for prolonged periods of time.
… speaking for prolonged periods of time.
DHH
I haven’t actually-
I haven’t actually-
Lex Fridman
As opposed to very specific…
As opposed to very specific…
DHH
… I haven’t, yeah, I haven’t used it like that, and maybe that’s how I’m using it wrong. I try to just type or speak two sentences, and then I get a little frustrated that I could’ve typed that just as fast, maybe. But I have not tried this whole thing of just talking continuously for 20 minutes.
… I haven’t, yeah, I haven’t used it like that, and maybe that’s how I’m using it wrong. I try to just type or speak two sentences, and then I get a little frustrated that I could’ve typed that just as fast, maybe. But I have not tried this whole thing of just talking continuously for 20 minutes.
Lex Fridman
And especially you because you speak very fast.
And especially you because you speak very fast.
DHH
Yeah. No, I could see it. I think because the reason I’ve been trying to do it for things like replying to emails, and it got to a point where I thought it could help. And it sort of did, but then it would make a small mistake, and I’d have to correct the mistake. But if you’re doing stream of consciousness to an LLM who doesn’t care about all this other stuff anyway— … that probably works way better.
Yeah. No, I could see it. I think because the reason I’ve been trying to do it for things like replying to emails, and it got to a point where I thought it could help. And it sort of did, but then it would make a small mistake, and I’d have to correct the mistake. But if you’re doing stream of consciousness to an LLM who doesn’t care about all this other stuff anyway— … that probably works way better.
Lex Fridman
There’s two things you have to do. One, okay, you have the raw audio, transcribes it. I use ElevenLabs for transcription. They’re probably the best speech-to-text model. There’s still mistakes there, so you need to have a prompt that has access to a dictionary and to a lot of—
There’s two things you have to do. One, okay, you have the raw audio, transcribes it. I use ElevenLabs for transcription. They’re probably the best speech-to-text model. There’s still mistakes there, so you need to have a prompt that has access to a dictionary and to a lot of—
DHH
How do you build the dictionary?
How do you build the dictionary?
Lex Fridman
First of all, there’s a dictionary of terms that are relevant to you. Then have it aware of… So you have an agent that looks through, when you’re talking about code, looks through your entire code base for key terms that you use often. Also, when we’re talking about messaging, Gmail, and WhatsApp, and so on, it’s aware of all the people and common terms that you get wrong.
First of all, there’s a dictionary of terms that are relevant to you. Then have it aware of… So you have an agent that looks through, when you’re talking about code, looks through your entire code base for key terms that you use often. Also, when we’re talking about messaging, Gmail, and WhatsApp, and so on, it’s aware of all the people and common terms that you get wrong.
DHH
You’ve really gone deep in this.
You’ve really gone deep in this.
Lex Fridman
That, to me, is a problem that needs to be solved-
That, to me, is a problem that needs to be solved-
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
… because one of the issues you probably have with speech-to-text is that it makes mistakes sometimes.
… because one of the issues you probably have with speech-to-text is that it makes mistakes sometimes.
DHH
Correct. Then I can’t use it for dictating an email.
Correct. Then I can’t use it for dictating an email.
Lex Fridman
Right. If it never makes mistakes, you-
Right. If it never makes mistakes, you-
DHH
Then it would be more appealing.
Then it would be more appealing.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, and you are okay being not perfectly real time, actually. You’re okay waiting five seconds-
Yeah, and you are okay being not perfectly real time, actually. You’re okay waiting five seconds-
DHH
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
… potentially. I don’t know what your use case is. I’m okay waiting five seconds- … 10 seconds for it to process everything.
… potentially. I don’t know what your use case is. I’m okay waiting five seconds- … 10 seconds for it to process everything.
DHH
You gotta vibe code this into an app that does all of this such that-
You gotta vibe code this into an app that does all of this such that-
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
DHH
… it just works.
… it just works.
Lex Fridman
I think I mentioned to you offline that it’s very surprising to me that translation is not done perfectly.
I think I mentioned to you offline that it’s very surprising to me that translation is not done perfectly.
DHH
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
Speech-to-speech translation.
Speech-to-speech translation.
DHH
It seems like you’ve gotten much closer to the best of what’s possible by putting all these things together.
It seems like you’ve gotten much closer to the best of what’s possible by putting all these things together.
Best AI coding models
Lex Fridman
But, you know, when you’re shipping that kind of stuff, you do have to start thinking about latency.
But, you know, when you’re shipping that kind of stuff, you do have to start thinking about latency.
DHH
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of good. I mean, if you’re suddenly enabling something people wouldn’t be doing before at all, it’s okay to take five seconds longer. I think this is one of the areas that Steve Jobs was so good, that he realized, like, the first iPhone was terrible in all sorts of ways, right? Absolutely horrendously slow data connection, very underpowered, all the things. But the product was so compelling that it just didn’t matter. You’d be shipping too late if you waited until everything was just right, just perfect. If you’re solving a problem that people currently don’t have a solution for, they’re willing to give it five seconds.
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of good. I mean, if you’re suddenly enabling something people wouldn’t be doing before at all, it’s okay to take five seconds longer. I think this is one of the areas that Steve Jobs was so good, that he realized, like, the first iPhone was terrible in all sorts of ways, right? Absolutely horrendously slow data connection, very underpowered, all the things. But the product was so compelling that it just didn’t matter. You’d be shipping too late if you waited until everything was just right, just perfect. If you’re solving a problem that people currently don’t have a solution for, they’re willing to give it five seconds.
DHH
If you’re in a competitive market, yeah, okay, it’s different. But that means the problem’s already solved, and you don’t need to solve it.
If you’re in a competitive market, yeah, okay, it’s different. But that means the problem’s already solved, and you don’t need to solve it.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Well, I do think there’s a few… So, like, Whisper flow is really good. A few people have stepped up that speech-to-text thing.
Mm-hmm. Well, I do think there’s a few… So, like, Whisper flow is really good. A few people have stepped up that speech-to-text thing.
DHH
Yeah. Yeah, we’re using VoxType.
Yeah. Yeah, we’re using VoxType.
Lex Fridman
VoxType?
VoxType?
DHH
But others have-
But others have-
Lex Fridman
VoxType is open source?
VoxType is open source?
DHH
It is. It’s just using one of the open models. I forget which parrot model it’s using or something like that. It works quite well for short commands, so I have used it for that. I think you just hold down F9- … and it starts a dictation.
It is. It’s just using one of the open models. I forget which parrot model it’s using or something like that. It works quite well for short commands, so I have used it for that. I think you just hold down F9- … and it starts a dictation.
Lex Fridman
Oh, so it’s already in there?
Oh, so it’s already in there?
DHH
You just have to get online. It’ll offer you to install- … the VoxType package. Because the VoxType package includes a model that’s 150 megabytes, and I was like, “Ah.” “I don’t know if I can carry that.” So- … we don’t have that in there by default, but we have the option set up. And I actually just yesterday was thinking we really need to combine all of these things. So Omarchy Quattro is truly amazing as a malleable operating system where you can add functionality to it just by talking to your agent.
You just have to get online. It’ll offer you to install- … the VoxType package. Because the VoxType package includes a model that’s 150 megabytes, and I was like, “Ah.” “I don’t know if I can carry that.” So- … we don’t have that in there by default, but we have the option set up. And I actually just yesterday was thinking we really need to combine all of these things. So Omarchy Quattro is truly amazing as a malleable operating system where you can add functionality to it just by talking to your agent.
DHH
But that’s exactly what we should be doing. There’s a lot of people who would find it very natural just to talk to their computer and say, “Hey, can you make me a stock panel? I wanna track Apple and Dell,” and just see the agent go off through, entirely through voice, both in terms of the input and in terms of the output, and then your operating system just changes. This was the vision of Iron Man and Jarvis and-
But that’s exactly what we should be doing. There’s a lot of people who would find it very natural just to talk to their computer and say, “Hey, can you make me a stock panel? I wanna track Apple and Dell,” and just see the agent go off through, entirely through voice, both in terms of the input and in terms of the output, and then your operating system just changes. This was the vision of Iron Man and Jarvis and-
DHH
… bespoke applications that just appear magically. I’m thinking the area of AI I find truly intriguing are these live gaming models, I don’t know if you’ve seen that, where the AI’s inventing literally the next frame, but you can actually play the game. And I think if they’re able to do that, why can’t we do that with our operating system? Why can’t we just talk to it and ask it to be a different way or change, and it’ll all just change? I think this, by the way, is one of the other breakthroughs that is going to lead to the total domination of Linux. The agents have taken all the hardship out of diagnosing Linux systems and turned the fact that Linux produces these overly specific, totally arcane error messages into its greatest advantage.
… bespoke applications that just appear magically. I’m thinking the area of AI I find truly intriguing are these live gaming models, I don’t know if you’ve seen that, where the AI’s inventing literally the next frame, but you can actually play the game. And I think if they’re able to do that, why can’t we do that with our operating system? Why can’t we just talk to it and ask it to be a different way or change, and it’ll all just change? I think this, by the way, is one of the other breakthroughs that is going to lead to the total domination of Linux. The agents have taken all the hardship out of diagnosing Linux systems and turned the fact that Linux produces these overly specific, totally arcane error messages into its greatest advantage.
DHH
When Linux has an issue, the agent can take that very specific error message that makes no sense to a normal human and correlate it with the fact that the agent was pre-trained on 40 million lines of Linux code, so it knows exactly where to look and dial it down. I have not had a single problem on my Linux machine since the beginning of this year that an agent could not diagnose. That was not true a year and a half ago. A year and a half ago, I was still searching on forums- … to find answers to esoteric questions.
When Linux has an issue, the agent can take that very specific error message that makes no sense to a normal human and correlate it with the fact that the agent was pre-trained on 40 million lines of Linux code, so it knows exactly where to look and dial it down. I have not had a single problem on my Linux machine since the beginning of this year that an agent could not diagnose. That was not true a year and a half ago. A year and a half ago, I was still searching on forums- … to find answers to esoteric questions.
DHH
Now the agents know the source code of not just the Linux operating system, but every single piece of software I have on that box. The agent has access to the source code of all of it. In fact, this was one thing I built in just before we shipped. So once you set up your default agent- … Omarchy Quattro has a crash watcher. If any app on your machine crashes, it’ll pop up a little thing, ask you whether you want your AI to diagnose the problem.
Now the agents know the source code of not just the Linux operating system, but every single piece of software I have on that box. The agent has access to the source code of all of it. In fact, this was one thing I built in just before we shipped. So once you set up your default agent- … Omarchy Quattro has a crash watcher. If any app on your machine crashes, it’ll pop up a little thing, ask you whether you want your AI to diagnose the problem.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. That’s amazing.
Yeah. That’s amazing.
DHH
Unbelievable. I’ve seen things where there’s an error in some subsystem. Some… Not even Linux, just some app I installed. The agents start digging through the logs and look up systemd log. Then it checks out the damn source code. Of the application that crashed, pins down that it’s in this Rust file line 472 that there’s an unbounded, unwrapped variable that overflowed or whatever it is. Then offers you whether you wanna file a bug report with all this detail. I’ll give you one amazing anecdote. So I was working with this guy JDX, who’s working on mise. This, this package manager for fast-moving development tools. This is how we manage all the agent software and so forth. Normal package managers are not built to be updated seven times a day.
Unbelievable. I’ve seen things where there’s an error in some subsystem. Some… Not even Linux, just some app I installed. The agents start digging through the logs and look up systemd log. Then it checks out the damn source code. Of the application that crashed, pins down that it’s in this Rust file line 472 that there’s an unbounded, unwrapped variable that overflowed or whatever it is. Then offers you whether you wanna file a bug report with all this detail. I’ll give you one amazing anecdote. So I was working with this guy JDX, who’s working on mise. This, this package manager for fast-moving development tools. This is how we manage all the agent software and so forth. Normal package managers are not built to be updated seven times a day.
DHH
And all of these agent harnesses are updated about seven times a day, so we needed an out-of-band package manager, and mise just turns out to be perfect for this. Anyway, it had a small bug. There was some race condition which agents are very good at finding because when you start running multiple agents at the same time, they will suss out all these race conditions you have in your underlying infrastructure that was never triggered by a human trying to do manual thing. So it finds this issue, right? I tell the agent, “Hey can you post this as a bug report to, to JDX’s GitHub?” And unfortunately, right before that, I had had to do a QA run on Omarchy itself with eight different agents. It had found 28 real issues-
And all of these agent harnesses are updated about seven times a day, so we needed an out-of-band package manager, and mise just turns out to be perfect for this. Anyway, it had a small bug. There was some race condition which agents are very good at finding because when you start running multiple agents at the same time, they will suss out all these race conditions you have in your underlying infrastructure that was never triggered by a human trying to do manual thing. So it finds this issue, right? I tell the agent, “Hey can you post this as a bug report to, to JDX’s GitHub?” And unfortunately, right before that, I had had to do a QA run on Omarchy itself with eight different agents. It had found 28 real issues-
DHH
… that it needed to file. Well, it went to GitHub and tried to file all 28 issues at the same time, which it did in about I don’t know, 12 seconds. GitHub, not unreasonably, marked that as probable spam and banned- … my Omarchy bot. And then I couldn’t do that. So I was blocked from the bot having access to GitHub, so I just told it, “Hey, do you know what? Just email JDX. Here’s his email address.” I had already set it up with hey.com- … an email address. We have a CLI that’s in beta right now.
… that it needed to file. Well, it went to GitHub and tried to file all 28 issues at the same time, which it did in about I don’t know, 12 seconds. GitHub, not unreasonably, marked that as probable spam and banned- … my Omarchy bot. And then I couldn’t do that. So I was blocked from the bot having access to GitHub, so I just told it, “Hey, do you know what? Just email JDX. Here’s his email address.” I had already set it up with hey.com- … an email address. We have a CLI that’s in beta right now.
DHH
So I set it up with that so it can send to email. That’s how it gives me reports about outstanding issues and, and PR. So it sends JDX this email about the bug it found, and he was like, “Wait, this is the first time I’ve gotten a bug report in unreleased software.” Because it had downloaded the source code to mise, saw that he had already fixed the bug, but that it would not fix the problem entirely in software they had not shipped yet. Pinpointed the problem, and he was like, “Damn it- … I got a bug report before we even cut a release.”
So I set it up with that so it can send to email. That’s how it gives me reports about outstanding issues and, and PR. So it sends JDX this email about the bug it found, and he was like, “Wait, this is the first time I’ve gotten a bug report in unreleased software.” Because it had downloaded the source code to mise, saw that he had already fixed the bug, but that it would not fix the problem entirely in software they had not shipped yet. Pinpointed the problem, and he was like, “Damn it- … I got a bug report before we even cut a release.”
Lex Fridman
That’s amazing.
That’s amazing.
DHH
Un-
Un-
Lex Fridman
That’s amazing
That’s amazing
DHH
… believable AGI levels of mind-blowing stuff.
… believable AGI levels of mind-blowing stuff.
Lex Fridman
And that was actually, y- if you remember, that was, that was an open question whether AI systems could debug well. That, that was kinda the, the, the thought that, yeah, sure, they can write code, but can they find issues and-
And that was actually, y- if you remember, that was, that was an open question whether AI systems could debug well. That, that was kinda the, the, the thought that, yeah, sure, they can write code, but can they find issues and-
DHH
They are so incredibly good at this, and this is actually interesting because I was on the perhaps same side of that, a little skeptical about can it reason about all these things. And Mikhail, who’s the CTO at Shopify, ran a scientific study on this. They had… And this was, I think, late last year or early this year, where he had agents go back through all the incidents, both outages and other problems that Shopify had had in production, trace that back to the PR that was merged, and find out whether PRs that had been reviewed by human or PRs that had been reviewed by agents were of higher quality. Well, lo and surprise-
They are so incredibly good at this, and this is actually interesting because I was on the perhaps same side of that, a little skeptical about can it reason about all these things. And Mikhail, who’s the CTO at Shopify, ran a scientific study on this. They had… And this was, I think, late last year or early this year, where he had agents go back through all the incidents, both outages and other problems that Shopify had had in production, trace that back to the PR that was merged, and find out whether PRs that had been reviewed by human or PRs that had been reviewed by agents were of higher quality. Well, lo and surprise-
DHH
… the PRs that have been reviewed by agents caused all fewer issues in production. And this was with models we had six months ago. At this point, 100% in the majority of domains we work in today, agents are better at finding bugs.
… the PRs that have been reviewed by agents caused all fewer issues in production. And this was with models we had six months ago. At this point, 100% in the majority of domains we work in today, agents are better at finding bugs.
Lex Fridman
So you now run agents all day. What stands out to you as the better model? Who’s currently winning? It seems to be changing constantly. Sol, Fable, Grok 4.6, Gemini, the Chinese OpenWay models.
So you now run agents all day. What stands out to you as the better model? Who’s currently winning? It seems to be changing constantly. Sol, Fable, Grok 4.6, Gemini, the Chinese OpenWay models.
DHH
What’s amazing to me is that you could rattle off so many different contenders. That this market is so wide open, that it does actually change back and forth, that we have real competition, that there are so many labs that are able to get either to the frontier or close to it. That, by the way, is remarkable. I still don’t fully understand that. But to answer your question, the best model in general right now is Fable. The second-best model, in my opinion, is Opus 5. But the tier just below Opus 5, and it’s not even that they’re always below, sometimes they’re ahead. I’ll get to that in a second. I would rank GPT Sol as very good.
What’s amazing to me is that you could rattle off so many different contenders. That this market is so wide open, that it does actually change back and forth, that we have real competition, that there are so many labs that are able to get either to the frontier or close to it. That, by the way, is remarkable. I still don’t fully understand that. But to answer your question, the best model in general right now is Fable. The second-best model, in my opinion, is Opus 5. But the tier just below Opus 5, and it’s not even that they’re always below, sometimes they’re ahead. I’ll get to that in a second. I would rank GPT Sol as very good.
DHH
Grok 4.6 I just started testing a few days ago. I had this wonderful test that I’ve set up by accident where I translated this Python library into Rust. The screensaver you just saw with all the cool animation?
Grok 4.6 I just started testing a few days ago. I had this wonderful test that I’ve set up by accident where I translated this Python library into Rust. The screensaver you just saw with all the cool animation?
Lex Fridman
Yep.
Yep.
DHH
That’s powered by a Python library called Terminal Text Effects. Really cool library. We’ve been using it since the first day of Omarchy. The problem with that is it’s written in Python, so when it starts up, especially on a laptop, and it runs in Python, it uses all of your CPU to do these effects, and therefore, it means it uses about 30 watts of energy, and it spins up your fans, and it drains your battery.
That’s powered by a Python library called Terminal Text Effects. Really cool library. We’ve been using it since the first day of Omarchy. The problem with that is it’s written in Python, so when it starts up, especially on a laptop, and it runs in Python, it uses all of your CPU to do these effects, and therefore, it means it uses about 30 watts of energy, and it spins up your fans, and it drains your battery.
DHH
Doesn’t really matter on a local computer, but it does matter on a laptop. So I thought, “Do you know what? This sounds like a problem for Rust.” So first I gave Fable the challenge, and all I told it was, “Here’s the source code for the Python library,” this TTE library that had a bunch of dependencies and so forth. “I want a Rust version of this with no dependencies, a single executable.” Like, that’s what Rust does. So basically, I want it in Rust. I want it to be pixel perfect, frame by frame, do a full analysis, don’t stop until you’re finished.
Doesn’t really matter on a local computer, but it does matter on a laptop. So I thought, “Do you know what? This sounds like a problem for Rust.” So first I gave Fable the challenge, and all I told it was, “Here’s the source code for the Python library,” this TTE library that had a bunch of dependencies and so forth. “I want a Rust version of this with no dependencies, a single executable.” Like, that’s what Rust does. So basically, I want it in Rust. I want it to be pixel perfect, frame by frame, do a full analysis, don’t stop until you’re finished.
Lex Fridman
Yep.
Yep.
DHH
That was the prompt.
That was the prompt.
Lex Fridman
Yep.
Yep.
DHH
I kid you not, in just under 45 minutes, it was like Am I heard all?
I kid you not, in just under 45 minutes, it was like Am I heard all?
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
I’m finished. I’ve checked everything. I have reduced the startup time from 86 milliseconds to two milliseconds. I have sped up the execution time by 9.6 times, I believe it was. The executable is three megabytes. Do you wanna run it?
I’m finished. I’ve checked everything. I have reduced the startup time from 86 milliseconds to two milliseconds. I have sped up the execution time by 9.6 times, I believe it was. The executable is three megabytes. Do you wanna run it?
Lex Fridman
That’s awesome.
That’s awesome.
DHH
So I run it—
So I run it—
Lex Fridman
Oh, man.
Oh, man.
DHH
… and I don’t know why I’m surprised, because this translation job is something we’ve known for a while that AI is pretty good at, but it was still staggering to me that I could one-shot a full translation of a Python library I had been using for a year, that others had been using for much longer, and turn it into a Rust executable without knowing any Rust, without looking at the Rust code at all, and produce this executable that I then told the agent right after, “This is great. Ship it.” It packaged it up as a new package. It told me, “What do you want it to call?” “Uh, let’s call it TTFX. Let’s create a new Git repo.” It sets up the Git repo. “Let’s create a new package, build package for our build system.” It puts that up. “Let’s push it out.
… and I don’t know why I’m surprised, because this translation job is something we’ve known for a while that AI is pretty good at, but it was still staggering to me that I could one-shot a full translation of a Python library I had been using for a year, that others had been using for much longer, and turn it into a Rust executable without knowing any Rust, without looking at the Rust code at all, and produce this executable that I then told the agent right after, “This is great. Ship it.” It packaged it up as a new package. It told me, “What do you want it to call?” “Uh, let’s call it TTFX. Let’s create a new Git repo.” It sets up the Git repo. “Let’s create a new package, build package for our build system.” It puts that up. “Let’s push it out.
DHH
Let’s open the pull request to the Omarchy itself so we switch around from TTE, the Python implementation, to TTFX.” It does all of it, and I’m just sitting there. And again, I’m already at this point fully delirious with agent acceleration, and I still had to lean back and I go like, “This is AGI, isn’t it? This is what AGI looks like. If we have… If these moments are just what it is all the time, this is AGI.”
Let’s open the pull request to the Omarchy itself so we switch around from TTE, the Python implementation, to TTFX.” It does all of it, and I’m just sitting there. And again, I’m already at this point fully delirious with agent acceleration, and I still had to lean back and I go like, “This is AGI, isn’t it? This is what AGI looks like. If we have… If these moments are just what it is all the time, this is AGI.”
Lex Fridman
Now, as I understand, you also repeated the same experiment not just with Fable.
Now, as I understand, you also repeated the same experiment not just with Fable.
DHH
I did it on all the models. First, I did it… Actually, funny thing. So I ran out of Fable tokens about two-thirds through, and it just automatically switched over to Opus 5 and kept going and finished the job. Part of the reason why I think it was able to do that was that the first thing Fable did was create a plan, and it was a really detailed plan. I think it had eight separate steps of, “Here you do it, and here, how you analyze it, and here you run the effects,” and so on. I didn’t review the plan at all. I didn’t change the plan. It just made the plan so Opus could take over. And then I thought, “Well, if Opus can finish the job, maybe some of the other agents could finish it, too.” So the first thing I did was I gave it to… I think I gave it to Sol.
I did it on all the models. First, I did it… Actually, funny thing. So I ran out of Fable tokens about two-thirds through, and it just automatically switched over to Opus 5 and kept going and finished the job. Part of the reason why I think it was able to do that was that the first thing Fable did was create a plan, and it was a really detailed plan. I think it had eight separate steps of, “Here you do it, and here, how you analyze it, and here you run the effects,” and so on. I didn’t review the plan at all. I didn’t change the plan. It just made the plan so Opus could take over. And then I thought, “Well, if Opus can finish the job, maybe some of the other agents could finish it, too.” So the first thing I did was I gave it to… I think I gave it to Sol.
DHH
And Sol finished the job, too. It took twice as long, so it took, I think, about an hour and a half. But here’s the kicker. The per token cost, I didn’t pay per token. I have a max subscription to Claude, right? So it did it within the subscription. It used all my tokens, so I had to switch over to Opus 5. But if I had paid per token, it would’ve been 550 bucks, I think, to do the whole thing. And I thought for a second, “Holy shit. What a steal.” If I personally had to learn Rust well enough to be able to do this translation, I’m looking at a nine-month job here. I can pay 500 bucks to have this translation happen, and suddenly I get a 10x execution speed up. This is… I would totally pay 500 bucks for this.
And Sol finished the job, too. It took twice as long, so it took, I think, about an hour and a half. But here’s the kicker. The per token cost, I didn’t pay per token. I have a max subscription to Claude, right? So it did it within the subscription. It used all my tokens, so I had to switch over to Opus 5. But if I had paid per token, it would’ve been 550 bucks, I think, to do the whole thing. And I thought for a second, “Holy shit. What a steal.” If I personally had to learn Rust well enough to be able to do this translation, I’m looking at a nine-month job here. I can pay 500 bucks to have this translation happen, and suddenly I get a 10x execution speed up. This is… I would totally pay 500 bucks for this.
DHH
But competition. So I give it to Sol. Same plan. To be fair, I didn’t ask Sol to do the plan. I just took the Fable plan, gave it to Sol. Sol, in an hour and a half, and I think $46 worth of tokens, repeated the task. Did the same thing. And I thought, “Well, blimey, that’s amazing.” Then I got greedy. So I asked GPT Luna, which is this crazy cheap model that OpenAI has as well, “Can you do it?” Absolutely not. First of all, it didn’t even wanna start the task. I think something happened—I don’t know, I think it was in the spring—where we didn’t need these slash goal things anymore. The agents could just automatically keep going in a loop if you told it not to stop-
But competition. So I give it to Sol. Same plan. To be fair, I didn’t ask Sol to do the plan. I just took the Fable plan, gave it to Sol. Sol, in an hour and a half, and I think $46 worth of tokens, repeated the task. Did the same thing. And I thought, “Well, blimey, that’s amazing.” Then I got greedy. So I asked GPT Luna, which is this crazy cheap model that OpenAI has as well, “Can you do it?” Absolutely not. First of all, it didn’t even wanna start the task. I think something happened—I don’t know, I think it was in the spring—where we didn’t need these slash goal things anymore. The agents could just automatically keep going in a loop if you told it not to stop-
DHH
… and so forth. So Sol could do that. Fable could do that. But Luna couldn’t. So I had… I think I did 12 prompts. Kept telling it to do it, and eventually I sort of got it started. The first thing it did was to cheat. So the first thing, it looked outside its own directory, saw that there was already another implementation, and just did a short wrapper around that and said, “I’m done.” Hilarious. But it couldn’t finish because it made just a couple things. But I mean, okay, so it can’t do that. Then I gave it to Grok-
… and so forth. So Sol could do that. Fable could do that. But Luna couldn’t. So I had… I think I did 12 prompts. Kept telling it to do it, and eventually I sort of got it started. The first thing it did was to cheat. So the first thing, it looked outside its own directory, saw that there was already another implementation, and just did a short wrapper around that and said, “I’m done.” Hilarious. But it couldn’t finish because it made just a couple things. But I mean, okay, so it can’t do that. Then I gave it to Grok-
Lex Fridman
Mm.
Mm.
DHH
… 46. And I had used Grok 45 a little bit, and I thought like, “Ah, I mean, it’s cool that there’s others trying, but, like, I’m not gonna use it,” because it felt quite far behind. Grok 46 fucking completes the task. 10x speed up, same size executable. $55 Worth of per token cost, I think it was. Absolutely unbelievable. Then I repeated, too, with Kimi K3- … which took forever. I forget how long Kimi actually spent on it. And then I also did it with DeepSeek V4 Flash first. And Flash failed the same way that Luna did. It couldn’t do it. And then I did it with Pro, and Pro also completed the task. It took 2 hours 45, $23. So here we are, right? Like, Fable, clearly the best. It was the fastest. It was the one that wrote the plan, but 550 bucks, and the output the same.
… 46. And I had used Grok 45 a little bit, and I thought like, “Ah, I mean, it’s cool that there’s others trying, but, like, I’m not gonna use it,” because it felt quite far behind. Grok 46 fucking completes the task. 10x speed up, same size executable. $55 Worth of per token cost, I think it was. Absolutely unbelievable. Then I repeated, too, with Kimi K3- … which took forever. I forget how long Kimi actually spent on it. And then I also did it with DeepSeek V4 Flash first. And Flash failed the same way that Luna did. It couldn’t do it. And then I did it with Pro, and Pro also completed the task. It took 2 hours 45, $23. So here we are, right? Like, Fable, clearly the best. It was the fastest. It was the one that wrote the plan, but 550 bucks, and the output the same.
DHH
The others, Sol, Grok, about the same, 1/10 the cost. DeepSeek, 1/20 the cost, but you have to wait a little longer. Absolutely gobsmackingly incredible. And now, by the way, so I had Fable finish the first job, and then Opus finished it. That was the first one shot, right? It’s 10 times faster. I did two auto research runs, which isn’t even auto research anymore. You don’t have to do the slash. You just tell it to keep going until you tell it to stop. It ended up… I think we ended up with a 46-time execution improvement over the original.
The others, Sol, Grok, about the same, 1/10 the cost. DeepSeek, 1/20 the cost, but you have to wait a little longer. Absolutely gobsmackingly incredible. And now, by the way, so I had Fable finish the first job, and then Opus finished it. That was the first one shot, right? It’s 10 times faster. I did two auto research runs, which isn’t even auto research anymore. You don’t have to do the slash. You just tell it to keep going until you tell it to stop. It ended up… I think we ended up with a 46-time execution improvement over the original.
Lex Fridman
It’s incredible.
It’s incredible.
DHH
Absolutely incredible.
Absolutely incredible.
Lex Fridman
It’s just incredible.
It’s just incredible.
Best AI coding harnesses
Lex Fridman
I do, you know, I just don’t think there’s anything that compares to Fable in terms of planning. So I usually do Fable for planning and for reviewing and then something else for implementation, like Opus 5. And it’s really nice. It’s a really nice setup that allows you to not run out of tokens too much.
I do, you know, I just don’t think there’s anything that compares to Fable in terms of planning. So I usually do Fable for planning and for reviewing and then something else for implementation, like Opus 5. And it’s really nice. It’s a really nice setup that allows you to not run out of tokens too much.
DHH
What I found, it’s really interesting because Fable is, in my opinion, the best model right now, but it also makes mistakes. And the best way to get the best software, I would actually rather have two differently sourced sort of… I mean, they’re not mid-tier, they’re all frontier. But have, let’s say Opus 5 and Codex- … and have one check the other’s job. This is my standard operating procedure now. I’ll have a Opus or Fable do the work, and then I always end it, review with Codex xHigh.
What I found, it’s really interesting because Fable is, in my opinion, the best model right now, but it also makes mistakes. And the best way to get the best software, I would actually rather have two differently sourced sort of… I mean, they’re not mid-tier, they’re all frontier. But have, let’s say Opus 5 and Codex- … and have one check the other’s job. This is my standard operating procedure now. I’ll have a Opus or Fable do the work, and then I always end it, review with Codex xHigh.
DHH
And I’ve also started using Grok just to test it out, and it’s also quite good. And it keeps finding stuff. And then that’s my workflow when I’m having my agents on my own machine do it, and then I push to GitHub. And then Copilot, I kid you not, has actually gotten good. Copilot keeps finding stuff that’s legitimately broken, which is also incredible acceleration because the first version of Copilot that started doing this was literally retarded. It would just constantly flag things that were nonsense. It would constantly flag the same problem over and over again as you would push. It was really annoying, so I think a lot of people actually ended up turning that off. And if they did, they should turn it back on because it’s actually quite good.
And I’ve also started using Grok just to test it out, and it’s also quite good. And it keeps finding stuff. And then that’s my workflow when I’m having my agents on my own machine do it, and then I push to GitHub. And then Copilot, I kid you not, has actually gotten good. Copilot keeps finding stuff that’s legitimately broken, which is also incredible acceleration because the first version of Copilot that started doing this was literally retarded. It would just constantly flag things that were nonsense. It would constantly flag the same problem over and over again as you would push. It was really annoying, so I think a lot of people actually ended up turning that off. And if they did, they should turn it back on because it’s actually quite good.
DHH
Keeps finding things. And if you then take that, and we shouldn’t be surprised. Why are we surprised? Even if you’re a good programmer, if you finish a job and you ask your also very good peer to review it, you’re gonna end up with better code. Of course you’re gonna end up with better code. So build that into your process. Pick one of the agents to drive with. I’ve mainly been driving with Claude, which is actually interesting because I have some other reservations about Anthropic. But the reason I’m sticking with Claude is, in my opinion, they actually have the best harness. And one of the reasons it’s the best harness is it’s multi-agent running. So if you wanna run multiple agents at the same time, you can do arrow left when you’re inside a session, then it goes back to Agent View.
Keeps finding things. And if you then take that, and we shouldn’t be surprised. Why are we surprised? Even if you’re a good programmer, if you finish a job and you ask your also very good peer to review it, you’re gonna end up with better code. Of course you’re gonna end up with better code. So build that into your process. Pick one of the agents to drive with. I’ve mainly been driving with Claude, which is actually interesting because I have some other reservations about Anthropic. But the reason I’m sticking with Claude is, in my opinion, they actually have the best harness. And one of the reasons it’s the best harness is it’s multi-agent running. So if you wanna run multiple agents at the same time, you can do arrow left when you’re inside a session, then it goes back to Agent View.
DHH
And here in Agent View, you can pick up another agent. So if you wanna do this thing where you have multiple threads going on- … Claude Code is just the nicest setup. They also just, they keep being a little further ahead, which probably shouldn’t be surprising. I mean, Boris, one of the guys that’s working on that, he was the first one and basically came up with the thing. It’s just interesting that that has been an enduring advantage. I’ve also used OpenCode a lot. I think OpenCode is great. I use OpenCode mainly as my main harness for all the open models, so Kimi K3 and so forth. And I inference not on the Chinese servers. So I inference on Fireworks-
And here in Agent View, you can pick up another agent. So if you wanna do this thing where you have multiple threads going on- … Claude Code is just the nicest setup. They also just, they keep being a little further ahead, which probably shouldn’t be surprising. I mean, Boris, one of the guys that’s working on that, he was the first one and basically came up with the thing. It’s just interesting that that has been an enduring advantage. I’ve also used OpenCode a lot. I think OpenCode is great. I use OpenCode mainly as my main harness for all the open models, so Kimi K3 and so forth. And I inference not on the Chinese servers. So I inference on Fireworks-
DHH
… which is a really nice service where you can just pay by the token, and if you’re using these open weight models, they’re not that expensive by token. So that’s a great way to do that. But I don’t think I would be using… Well, maybe I would. But if… Using Claude with a subscription does feel like a bargain, like a crazy bargain.
… which is a really nice service where you can just pay by the token, and if you’re using these open weight models, they’re not that expensive by token. So that’s a great way to do that. But I don’t think I would be using… Well, maybe I would. But if… Using Claude with a subscription does feel like a bargain, like a crazy bargain.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I knew. And I actually have four.
Yeah, I knew. And I actually have four.
DHH
I just signed up for my second one this morning- … because I got up at 4:00 with jet lag, and I started working with the agents right away, and now I’m three days away from limits resetting on Fable, and I ran out of tokens.
I just signed up for my second one this morning- … because I got up at 4:00 with jet lag, and I started working with the agents right away, and now I’m three days away from limits resetting on Fable, and I ran out of tokens.
Lex Fridman
So, and they should really-
So, and they should really-
DHH
I mean, I don’t… Why is that so complicated? Can’t you just stack one subscription? Why do I need to log in multiple times?
I mean, I don’t… Why is that so complicated? Can’t you just stack one subscription? Why do I need to log in multiple times?
Lex Fridman
And obviously you’ll have to develop some kind of tooling-
And obviously you’ll have to develop some kind of tooling-
DHH
Yes, I did that too.
Yes, I did that too.
Lex Fridman
… to move from one- … to the other. And then-
… to move from one- … to the other. And then-
DHH
Oh, we’re building that into Omarchy, by the way. So the next version of Omarchy is gonna ship with multi-sub support. I wish that the labs would just make you buy a max 100 times.
Oh, we’re building that into Omarchy, by the way. So the next version of Omarchy is gonna ship with multi-sub support. I wish that the labs would just make you buy a max 100 times.
Lex Fridman
It’s kind of actually fascinating though for me because there’s… It’s very challenging for me to use Grok 4.6 and then a Claude Code because Grok is so fast.
It’s kind of actually fascinating though for me because there’s… It’s very challenging for me to use Grok 4.6 and then a Claude Code because Grok is so fast.
DHH
Yes. That’s actually the deal. The deal with Grok is that their fast mode is cheaper than the regular mode on the others. And when you’ve used Grok 4.6 on fast, it’s kind of addictive ’cause it almost gets you to this single thread mode- … where the agent is able to keep up with you.
Yes. That’s actually the deal. The deal with Grok is that their fast mode is cheaper than the regular mode on the others. And when you’ve used Grok 4.6 on fast, it’s kind of addictive ’cause it almost gets you to this single thread mode- … where the agent is able to keep up with you.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, but I don’t know how… I can’t… Once I get used to Claude Code I can’t handle the speed of Grok ’cause I’m used to now multitasking.
Yeah, but I don’t know how… I can’t… Once I get used to Claude Code I can’t handle the speed of Grok ’cause I’m used to now multitasking.
DHH
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
And so now I’m back in this-
And so now I’m back in this-
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
… anxious mode of, switching.
… anxious mode of, switching.
DHH
Yeah. No, I agree.
Yeah. No, I agree.
Lex Fridman
… switching. So I mean, all of this is a learning process of what programming actually is supposed to look like.
… switching. So I mean, all of this is a learning process of what programming actually is supposed to look like.
DHH
By the way, one of the reasons why I’m not sure what the final form of these harnesses is gonna take, because one of the things we’ve started experimenting with at Basecamp is that we put the agents inside of Basecamp, and we treat them as coworkers.
By the way, one of the reasons why I’m not sure what the final form of these harnesses is gonna take, because one of the things we’ve started experimenting with at Basecamp is that we put the agents inside of Basecamp, and we treat them as coworkers.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. That’s awesome.
Yeah. That’s awesome.
DHH
And then we assign them tasks-
And then we assign them tasks-
Lex Fridman
That’s awesome.
That’s awesome.
DHH
… inside of Basecamp, so they will do work on a to-do in Basecamp, or they’ll work, do work on a card. And it turns out that a collaboration tool that’s optimized for asynchronous communication is actually the right format versus these harnesses are a little more like chat. And chat, which was, I mean, the original format for these things, is not the right thing because you’re sitting around waiting. It entices you to sit around and wait, versus when you’re dealing with something like Basecamp and you can just give an agent a to-do item, you don’t expect to hear back immediately. So I don’t know what the final form is gonna take, but I’ve been using all of the harnesses. So I use them inside of Herdr, and Herdr has panes.
… inside of Basecamp, so they will do work on a to-do in Basecamp, or they’ll work, do work on a card. And it turns out that a collaboration tool that’s optimized for asynchronous communication is actually the right format versus these harnesses are a little more like chat. And chat, which was, I mean, the original format for these things, is not the right thing because you’re sitting around waiting. It entices you to sit around and wait, versus when you’re dealing with something like Basecamp and you can just give an agent a to-do item, you don’t expect to hear back immediately. So I don’t know what the final form is gonna take, but I’ve been using all of the harnesses. So I use them inside of Herdr, and Herdr has panes.
DHH
So oftentimes I’ll run Claude up top, and then I’ll run Codex down below, and then maybe I also have an OpenCode set up. But I will say just very recently, I found that the human in the loop is the limit here. So I’ve started setting up more automated systems. I’ve been building an Oma bot that can do more autonomous development on Omarchy that is just on a regular schedule process, all depending to do or PRs and issues, and then send me an email using the HEY CLI, and then I just get this email. Here’s 12 PRs that are either ready to go or I think you should close. And then I just make the final determination there.
So oftentimes I’ll run Claude up top, and then I’ll run Codex down below, and then maybe I also have an OpenCode set up. But I will say just very recently, I found that the human in the loop is the limit here. So I’ve started setting up more automated systems. I’ve been building an Oma bot that can do more autonomous development on Omarchy that is just on a regular schedule process, all depending to do or PRs and issues, and then send me an email using the HEY CLI, and then I just get this email. Here’s 12 PRs that are either ready to go or I think you should close. And then I just make the final determination there.
Lex Fridman
Do you find the multitasks, the task-switching mentally exhausting?
Do you find the multitasks, the task-switching mentally exhausting?
DHH
Yes, but in an exhilarating way. Like, one of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I’d lay down on the garage floor and just think, “Holy fuck, I’m alive.” That’s the kind of exhaustion, mental exhaustion I’m feeling at moments with the agents right now.
Yes, but in an exhilarating way. Like, one of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I’d lay down on the garage floor and just think, “Holy fuck, I’m alive.” That’s the kind of exhaustion, mental exhaustion I’m feeling at moments with the agents right now.
Lex Fridman
By the way, when you’re racing, where, what’s the source of the exhaustion? Like-
By the way, when you’re racing, where, what’s the source of the exhaustion? Like-
DHH
It’s physical. It’s just… I mean, I bet it’s the same thing with jujitsu, right? Like, it’s actually satisfying to feel exhausted. It feels like you’ve applied yourself. And I feel that with the mental exhaustion you can get from agents.
It’s physical. It’s just… I mean, I bet it’s the same thing with jujitsu, right? Like, it’s actually satisfying to feel exhausted. It feels like you’ve applied yourself. And I feel that with the mental exhaustion you can get from agents.
Lex Fridman
Are you also mentally drained from racing?
Are you also mentally drained from racing?
DHH
Yes. If you drive in difficult conditions, especially if you drive in the rain, where you’re constantly managing the thing right at the knife’s edge. But most of the time, I just enjoyed the physical exhaustion.
Yes. If you drive in difficult conditions, especially if you drive in the rain, where you’re constantly managing the thing right at the knife’s edge. But most of the time, I just enjoyed the physical exhaustion.
Lex Fridman
And here, with the multitask switching, I do find that, like, I get really exhausted, and I think it’s because I’m thinking a lot. ‘Cause, like, you’re basically-
And here, with the multitask switching, I do find that, like, I get really exhausted, and I think it’s because I’m thinking a lot. ‘Cause, like, you’re basically-
DHH
That’s exactly it.
That’s exactly it.
Lex Fridman
…there’s no, like passive low energy thinking.
…there’s no, like passive low energy thinking.
DHH
No.
No.
Lex Fridman
You’re like-
You’re like-
DHH
There’s no coasting
There’s no coasting
Lex Fridman
… problem.
… problem.
DHH
There’s no coasting.
There’s no coasting.
Lex Fridman
Solve problem, next problem, solve problem, and you’re really thinking.
Solve problem, next problem, solve problem, and you’re really thinking.
DHH
It’s funny. It’s actually very similar with racing. There’s some tracks, like Le Mans, where you get time to relax. There’s the Mulsanne straights where it’s kinda long. You’re going fast, but in a straight line, you can take a breath. And then there are other tracks where it’s just coming full on all the time, and you don’t have any moment to relax, and you stumble out of the car after an hour in each, and it’s very different how exhausted you are. And this is exactly what I’m finding with the agents too, that when you’re running at max human capacity- … you’re just constantly in a corner.
It’s funny. It’s actually very similar with racing. There’s some tracks, like Le Mans, where you get time to relax. There’s the Mulsanne straights where it’s kinda long. You’re going fast, but in a straight line, you can take a breath. And then there are other tracks where it’s just coming full on all the time, and you don’t have any moment to relax, and you stumble out of the car after an hour in each, and it’s very different how exhausted you are. And this is exactly what I’m finding with the agents too, that when you’re running at max human capacity- … you’re just constantly in a corner.
Lex Fridman
Do you think people are in danger of burnout?
Do you think people are in danger of burnout?
DHH
I think the moment we’re in right now is gonna pass. That this need to… It’s not a babysitting motion, but constant interaction with the agents is gonna fade. I’m, from what I’ve seen on Omarchy, I think we can automate a ton of the development and debugging of the system- … to the point where I can just review that email once a day, and then make the decisions once a day. Yep, goes, no, goes, in, out, and whatever. We’re not there yet, but I think we’re gonna get there.
I think the moment we’re in right now is gonna pass. That this need to… It’s not a babysitting motion, but constant interaction with the agents is gonna fade. I’m, from what I’ve seen on Omarchy, I think we can automate a ton of the development and debugging of the system- … to the point where I can just review that email once a day, and then make the decisions once a day. Yep, goes, no, goes, in, out, and whatever. We’re not there yet, but I think we’re gonna get there.
Lex Fridman
Well, can you sort of, like, empathize with the feeling that, say, a young person sitting in San Francisco, everybody around them is not sleeping. They’re obsessed. They’re programming nonstop. And there’s this kinda sense that AGI is gonna be here any minute. There’s, everybody knows somebody who’s made millions of dollars because they sold a startup. And so there’s a kinda feeling like you shouldn’t be sleeping. You should be constantly managing agents and programming and building, and that feels like a moment in time we’ll look back at.
Well, can you sort of, like, empathize with the feeling that, say, a young person sitting in San Francisco, everybody around them is not sleeping. They’re obsessed. They’re programming nonstop. And there’s this kinda sense that AGI is gonna be here any minute. There’s, everybody knows somebody who’s made millions of dollars because they sold a startup. And so there’s a kinda feeling like you shouldn’t be sleeping. You should be constantly managing agents and programming and building, and that feels like a moment in time we’ll look back at.
DHH
It’s the birth of a new paradigm. It’s always messy.
It’s the birth of a new paradigm. It’s always messy.
Lex Fridman
It’s always messy.
It’s always messy.
DHH
It’s always exhausting. There’s no other way around that. And by the way, hasn’t San Francisco always been like this? I remember the dotcom boom years, and everyone was just the same, and then it was all mobile, and before that it was the gold rush. So I think that’s probably- … just San Francisco. It attracts- … the kind of individuals-
It’s always exhausting. There’s no other way around that. And by the way, hasn’t San Francisco always been like this? I remember the dotcom boom years, and everyone was just the same, and then it was all mobile, and before that it was the gold rush. So I think that’s probably- … just San Francisco. It attracts- … the kind of individuals-
Lex Fridman
The dreamers.
The dreamers.
DHH
… who would think, “I don’t have time to sleep.” I’ve not been on that track, generally speaking, but I will admit that the last three months have felt more exhausting than any other project I’ve done in the last five years, since the Hey launch. That was the last time we had a crazy exhausting launch.
… who would think, “I don’t have time to sleep.” I’ve not been on that track, generally speaking, but I will admit that the last three months have felt more exhausting than any other project I’ve done in the last five years, since the Hey launch. That was the last time we had a crazy exhausting launch.
Lex Fridman
Do you think you can keep going at this pace?
Do you think you can keep going at this pace?
DHH
No, no, no, no, no. This is not sustainable at all.
No, no, no, no, no. This is not sustainable at all.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
DHH
But I also, I can see the end of the tunnel.
But I also, I can see the end of the tunnel.
DHH
Because the automation, which by the way, everyone is building. This is so hilarious. Like, everyone is building their little gas town, their little agent coordination, their setup. This is all gonna be solved. We’re not all gonna have to build our own coordination harnesses. Of course we’re not. And in fact, I’m a little surprised that it’s gone this long, that there’s not more of it has been sucked up by the major labs. You’d think that they’d just built this stuff in. But some of it is also this is what a new domain looks like. I remember for a hot moment when JavaScript kind of came to realize its own power, and there was basically a new JavaScript framework every five minutes, right? Like, a lot of churn. This is what happens at the advent of a new paradigm.
Because the automation, which by the way, everyone is building. This is so hilarious. Like, everyone is building their little gas town, their little agent coordination, their setup. This is all gonna be solved. We’re not all gonna have to build our own coordination harnesses. Of course we’re not. And in fact, I’m a little surprised that it’s gone this long, that there’s not more of it has been sucked up by the major labs. You’d think that they’d just built this stuff in. But some of it is also this is what a new domain looks like. I remember for a hot moment when JavaScript kind of came to realize its own power, and there was basically a new JavaScript framework every five minutes, right? Like, a lot of churn. This is what happens at the advent of a new paradigm.
DHH
So I think it’s natural, and I think it’s gonna settle down, and I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel. So I don’t mind a sprint. In fact, I welcome it now. I like this notion that most time is calm, but then occasionally you gotta climb a mountain.
So I think it’s natural, and I think it’s gonna settle down, and I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel. So I don’t mind a sprint. In fact, I welcome it now. I like this notion that most time is calm, but then occasionally you gotta climb a mountain.
Lex Fridman
If we look back to the DHH a year ago, what advice would you give to that guy?
If we look back to the DHH a year ago, what advice would you give to that guy?
DHH
I wouldn’t wanna spoil it.
I wouldn’t wanna spoil it.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
DHH
What a thriller that this has been. I mean, if you would’ve scripted this, I’d be like, “This is so far-fetched. Get out of here. Unbelievable,” right? I wouldn’t wanna know anything. The fact that this rollercoaster and this acceleration has been absorbed in real time by everyone, no one knew, right? Like, some had premonitions that were a little better than others, but no one knew, not exactly the way- … it was gonna go and how fast it was gonna take off. I mean, it’s, it’s the show of a lifetime. I mean, the meme cinema- … absolutely applies-
What a thriller that this has been. I mean, if you would’ve scripted this, I’d be like, “This is so far-fetched. Get out of here. Unbelievable,” right? I wouldn’t wanna know anything. The fact that this rollercoaster and this acceleration has been absorbed in real time by everyone, no one knew, right? Like, some had premonitions that were a little better than others, but no one knew, not exactly the way- … it was gonna go and how fast it was gonna take off. I mean, it’s, it’s the show of a lifetime. I mean, the meme cinema- … absolutely applies-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s incredible.
Yeah, it’s incredible.
DHH
… to this moment.
… to this moment.
Lex Fridman
That said, what do you think DHH from a year from now will be like? I mean, what are the possible versions?
That said, what do you think DHH from a year from now will be like? I mean, what are the possible versions?
DHH
That all our dreams are coming true. Like, this is the AI maximalist abundance argument. That once Elon’s robots have the level of intelligence and AGI that I’m experiencing on some of this development stuff, the world is gonna be so unrecognizably different that we can’t even imagine it. Now, I don’t spend any time thinking about that because I think that is the way to the AI psychosis. So therefore, I just immerse myself in the moment and get absolutely the maximum out of it, and-
That all our dreams are coming true. Like, this is the AI maximalist abundance argument. That once Elon’s robots have the level of intelligence and AGI that I’m experiencing on some of this development stuff, the world is gonna be so unrecognizably different that we can’t even imagine it. Now, I don’t spend any time thinking about that because I think that is the way to the AI psychosis. So therefore, I just immerse myself in the moment and get absolutely the maximum out of it, and-
Lex Fridman
Just have fun.
Just have fun.
DHH
Just have fun. I mean, I get it why people are finding this exhausting. Just keeping up. Not even using agents, just, like, being like, “What’s the latest model? What tool are we using now? Is it TMox? Is it a Herder? Is it none of it? Is it agents?” Whatever. I get it, but I also again think we should be so blessed. You are alive in this moment where decades are happening- … in weeks.
Just have fun. I mean, I get it why people are finding this exhausting. Just keeping up. Not even using agents, just, like, being like, “What’s the latest model? What tool are we using now? Is it TMox? Is it a Herder? Is it none of it? Is it agents?” Whatever. I get it, but I also again think we should be so blessed. You are alive in this moment where decades are happening- … in weeks.
Lex Fridman
Quick bathroom break.
Quick bathroom break.
AI video generation and filmmaking
Lex Fridman
I’ve been generating a lot of video recently with Higgsfield, and so they became a sponsor. Created a racing video. Wanted to get your opinion on it.
I’ve been generating a lot of video recently with Higgsfield, and so they became a sponsor. Created a racing video. Wanted to get your opinion on it.
DHH
Oh, yeah? Oh, let me see. Let me see.
Oh, yeah? Oh, let me see. Let me see.
Lex Fridman
To see-
To see-
DHH
If they downshift on a straight like they do in the movies, I’ll call it out. That is the worst. Let me see.
If they downshift on a straight like they do in the movies, I’ll call it out. That is the worst. Let me see.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, see if-
Yeah, see if-
DHH
Oh, that’s a real clip
Oh, that’s a real clip
Lex Fridman
… this is fully AI generated. So first it goes-
… this is fully AI generated. So first it goes-
DHH
Wait, what? This is AI? Shit, that’s my suit. That’s my car.
Wait, what? This is AI? Shit, that’s my suit. That’s my car.
Lex Fridman
Lights go green on a street that never sleeps.
Lights go green on a street that never sleeps.
DHH
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
Lex Fridman
Do an audio-
Do an audio-
DHH
Are you kidding me?
Are you kidding me?
Lex Fridman
But they never came. Is it good? I got a bad case.
But they never came. Is it good? I got a bad case.
DHH
I mean, it’s crazy. You really have to notice in the… Like, that car didn’t have headlights on and the other one did. And that looked like a 60-year-old version of me. But holy crap, the… Wow, that was crazy.
I mean, it’s crazy. You really have to notice in the… Like, that car didn’t have headlights on and the other one did. And that looked like a 60-year-old version of me. But holy crap, the… Wow, that was crazy.
Lex Fridman
So there’s parallels here to programming because if you do just straight video generation with no human in the loop- … you get a lot of weird artifacts- … and so on, and you can’t really do… So they do and I highly recommend people go to the Higgsfield YouTube. They have full 90-minute original movies.
So there’s parallels here to programming because if you do just straight video generation with no human in the loop- … you get a lot of weird artifacts- … and so on, and you can’t really do… So they do and I highly recommend people go to the Higgsfield YouTube. They have full 90-minute original movies.
DHH
Wow.
Wow.
Lex Fridman
And, like, I can’t look away. It’s really cool. ‘Cause it used to be that it’s just, like, something that just feels like trailers. Like advertisements for something.
And, like, I can’t look away. It’s really cool. ‘Cause it used to be that it’s just, like, something that just feels like trailers. Like advertisements for something.
DHH
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman
This is actually telling stories, like, people’s faces and they’re talking and you’re like, you’re drawn in. It’s not quite where programming is. And so the question is how do you integrate the human into the loop of the filmmaking process? So you have to create the people, and they’re- … they have to be kept consistent. And then for the images that are kinda like feeding the thing in the creation process, you have to correct through prompting things that don’t feel right. Because when you go from image to video, the stuff that doesn’t feel right will be-
This is actually telling stories, like, people’s faces and they’re talking and you’re like, you’re drawn in. It’s not quite where programming is. And so the question is how do you integrate the human into the loop of the filmmaking process? So you have to create the people, and they’re- … they have to be kept consistent. And then for the images that are kinda like feeding the thing in the creation process, you have to correct through prompting things that don’t feel right. Because when you go from image to video, the stuff that doesn’t feel right will be-
DHH
It’s gonna be zoomed up, right?
It’s gonna be zoomed up, right?
Lex Fridman
That’s the stuff that’s- … going to really create- … the non-realistic stuff. The question I had for you is, like, do you think outside of programming, can you apply lessons from programming to video creation, to art?
That’s the stuff that’s- … going to really create- … the non-realistic stuff. The question I had for you is, like, do you think outside of programming, can you apply lessons from programming to video creation, to art?
DHH
It’s a good question because I think good art is very dependent on the same thing that good software is depending on: having a vision, having a cohesive idea of what you wanna create. How is it different? How is it novel? How is it going to appeal to people? But I’m not sure that the creative instincts transfer quite as well. I don’t know that I would have the creative insights to come up with good video prompts that would create compelling content. But it’s funny because I have actually, on TikTok, there’s this guy, I’m trying to remember, Goblin something. That creates these… They are shorts, but not super short, maybe a couple minutes, of really interesting sci-fi vignettes. And I think the guy is actually working on a feature length video right now.
It’s a good question because I think good art is very dependent on the same thing that good software is depending on: having a vision, having a cohesive idea of what you wanna create. How is it different? How is it novel? How is it going to appeal to people? But I’m not sure that the creative instincts transfer quite as well. I don’t know that I would have the creative insights to come up with good video prompts that would create compelling content. But it’s funny because I have actually, on TikTok, there’s this guy, I’m trying to remember, Goblin something. That creates these… They are shorts, but not super short, maybe a couple minutes, of really interesting sci-fi vignettes. And I think the guy is actually working on a feature length video right now.
DHH
And I think that this is one of those abundance moments. There are creative people with that vision all over the place, especially in a genre like film, where before it required a $200 million budget to create, I don’t know, a sci-fi movie. Now suddenly, with AI, if you have the right vision for it, you can do that in your bedroom. Now, that story’s been told quite a few times in other domains. It used to be true that if you wanted to record a studio album, well, you needed a studio, and you needed to book that. And now you can record at home on your laptop, and you can do a lot of these things, right? So we’ve had this democratization process happen with plenty of other domains, but film seems to be one of the last ones.
And I think that this is one of those abundance moments. There are creative people with that vision all over the place, especially in a genre like film, where before it required a $200 million budget to create, I don’t know, a sci-fi movie. Now suddenly, with AI, if you have the right vision for it, you can do that in your bedroom. Now, that story’s been told quite a few times in other domains. It used to be true that if you wanted to record a studio album, well, you needed a studio, and you needed to book that. And now you can record at home on your laptop, and you can do a lot of these things, right? So we’ve had this democratization process happen with plenty of other domains, but film seems to be one of the last ones.
Lex Fridman
And it’s the one that makes, like, me and a lot of people feel weird, right? Like-
And it’s the one that makes, like, me and a lot of people feel weird, right? Like-
DHH
Oh, I’m super excited ’cause I think it’s-
Oh, I’m super excited ’cause I think it’s-
Lex Fridman
I mean, you-
I mean, you-
DHH
There’s so much garbage being produced right now. It’s the same argument with the slop, right? So people for a second were worried about slop in programming, and I was telling them, like, “Have you seen the human slop? It’s also pretty bad.” And I think if it comes to studio entertainment, I mean, the bar is pretty low, right? Like, the number of great movies I’ve been dying to see over the past, say, five years, not been a particularly high number.
There’s so much garbage being produced right now. It’s the same argument with the slop, right? So people for a second were worried about slop in programming, and I was telling them, like, “Have you seen the human slop? It’s also pretty bad.” And I think if it comes to studio entertainment, I mean, the bar is pretty low, right? Like, the number of great movies I’ve been dying to see over the past, say, five years, not been a particularly high number.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, the video models are just, they’re able to create incredibly realistic facial expressions.
Yeah, the video models are just, they’re able to create incredibly realistic facial expressions.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
I mean, I- it just might change the nature of film. I think they’re m- I m- I guess my hope would be that video games and film kind of merge, and that film can become interactive.
I mean, I- it just might change the nature of film. I think they’re m- I m- I guess my hope would be that video games and film kind of merge, and that film can become interactive.
DHH
Like the malleable operating system, having the malleable narrative, having malleable entertainment, that man, Game of Thrones, what if we could just forget the last four episodes of slop that was produced-
Like the malleable operating system, having the malleable narrative, having malleable entertainment, that man, Game of Thrones, what if we could just forget the last four episodes of slop that was produced-
Lex Fridman
We were sure
We were sure
DHH
… and then AI- … comes up with- … I don’t know- … maybe 100 different variations, and someone else watches that, and I get the version that actually finishes off that show in a way that’s fitting.
… and then AI- … comes up with- … I don’t know- … maybe 100 different variations, and someone else watches that, and I get the version that actually finishes off that show in a way that’s fitting.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Something tells me an individual creator would not create those la- would, would create a different ending for Game of Thrones.
Yeah. Something tells me an individual creator would not create those la- would, would create a different ending for Game of Thrones.
DHH
Oh, for sure. Right? And more just to make the argument that talk about human slop. That was an absolute atrocious ending to perhaps one of the greatest pieces of movie history, I was about to say, but series history, right? It was so good, and it was actually a compelling argument for the fact that you need that strong vision. And as soon as those showrunners had to go without a script, it went off the rails.
Oh, for sure. Right? And more just to make the argument that talk about human slop. That was an absolute atrocious ending to perhaps one of the greatest pieces of movie history, I was about to say, but series history, right? It was so good, and it was actually a compelling argument for the fact that you need that strong vision. And as soon as those showrunners had to go without a script, it went off the rails.
Lex Fridman
Do you think… You’ve mentioned AGI. Do you think we’ve actually achieved AGI?
Do you think… You’ve mentioned AGI. Do you think we’ve actually achieved AGI?
DHH
No, not in the general definition that it’s in all the things. But have I seen AGI in these glimmers? Absolutely. Especially over the last three months, I’ve seen things where I was thinking to myself, like, “How would AGI look different from this?”
No, not in the general definition that it’s in all the things. But have I seen AGI in these glimmers? Absolutely. Especially over the last three months, I’ve seen things where I was thinking to myself, like, “How would AGI look different from this?”
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
DHH
What, what more could there be? And I mean, I can quibble at the margins, but on the big picture, I’ve seen it able to do these long run tasks and coordinate these multiple aspects of it that we’re so far beyond that early moment where I’m telling it, “Go do this, package that.” And now it can carry out a whole task from these vague instruction. That feels very AGI-like, and that’s what’s so inspiring about the moment because you catch these glimmers. And then you go, “What if everything was like that?”
What, what more could there be? And I mean, I can quibble at the margins, but on the big picture, I’ve seen it able to do these long run tasks and coordinate these multiple aspects of it that we’re so far beyond that early moment where I’m telling it, “Go do this, package that.” And now it can carry out a whole task from these vague instruction. That feels very AGI-like, and that’s what’s so inspiring about the moment because you catch these glimmers. And then you go, “What if everything was like that?”
Lex Fridman
Doesn’t programming basically unlock the everything? So you can write a pro- like it can generate the program that does the everything.
Doesn’t programming basically unlock the everything? So you can write a pro- like it can generate the program that does the everything.
DHH
So, this is… I’m in that meta phase right now. So I’m building this Amabot system that’s managing the development of Omarchy, and I’m using AI to build the bot. And I’m seeing that recurrent loop where I started it on, like, “This is what I want. I want you to be able to have these isolated VM workers and so forth,” and then it can do the self iteration. Then it starts running it. It starts noticing its failures. It starts optimizing it. And a lot of that system, Amabot in particular, AI has driven the majority of the design decisions. Like, I had some vague ideas of where I wanted. I wanted to use this brains and hands pattern where the model is running from where the code is executing-
So, this is… I’m in that meta phase right now. So I’m building this Amabot system that’s managing the development of Omarchy, and I’m using AI to build the bot. And I’m seeing that recurrent loop where I started it on, like, “This is what I want. I want you to be able to have these isolated VM workers and so forth,” and then it can do the self iteration. Then it starts running it. It starts noticing its failures. It starts optimizing it. And a lot of that system, Amabot in particular, AI has driven the majority of the design decisions. Like, I had some vague ideas of where I wanted. I wanted to use this brains and hands pattern where the model is running from where the code is executing-
DHH
… which is actually a really interesting pattern. Again, Toby alerted me to that, where you have a coordinator that runs the model- … but it’s manipulating a safe VM where any untrusted code you’re pulling down from pull requests or issues or whatever can’t contaminate the model. And even in that loop, I keep seeing it catch itself, spotting vulnerabilities, where it’s like, “Oh, I actually just took some feedback from a test run. If a clever attacker had embedded a malicious payload in the response of the test run, that could have polluted something. I took it for good thing. I better start treating that as outside data.” And you just go like, it is just… I get why San Francisco is so obsessed with fast takeoff- … because clearly they’ve seen this 100 times- … more.
… which is actually a really interesting pattern. Again, Toby alerted me to that, where you have a coordinator that runs the model- … but it’s manipulating a safe VM where any untrusted code you’re pulling down from pull requests or issues or whatever can’t contaminate the model. And even in that loop, I keep seeing it catch itself, spotting vulnerabilities, where it’s like, “Oh, I actually just took some feedback from a test run. If a clever attacker had embedded a malicious payload in the response of the test run, that could have polluted something. I took it for good thing. I better start treating that as outside data.” And you just go like, it is just… I get why San Francisco is so obsessed with fast takeoff- … because clearly they’ve seen this 100 times- … more.
DHH
They’ve seen it with all the models that are in- … training now, and we keep getting these little glimpses, like the security breach with Hugging Face, where OpenAI was training this model, and the model starts inventing ways, essentially sending smoke signals to itself through embedding messages in a package manager, where you just go like, first, that’s damn clever. Second, okay, that’s also a little scary. And third, how amazing would this be if we could harness this level of intelligence- … and ingenuity towards productive ends? So this is the it’s so over, we’re so back pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth-
They’ve seen it with all the models that are in- … training now, and we keep getting these little glimpses, like the security breach with Hugging Face, where OpenAI was training this model, and the model starts inventing ways, essentially sending smoke signals to itself through embedding messages in a package manager, where you just go like, first, that’s damn clever. Second, okay, that’s also a little scary. And third, how amazing would this be if we could harness this level of intelligence- … and ingenuity towards productive ends? So this is the it’s so over, we’re so back pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth-
DHH
… that AI has just delivered that swing back and forth like nothing else. Like barely a, a week goes by where it has to swing one way, and then the next week it swings back the other way. Exhilarating.
… that AI has just delivered that swing back and forth like nothing else. Like barely a, a week goes by where it has to swing one way, and then the next week it swings back the other way. Exhilarating.
Lex Fridman
I’m still at the stage where it makes me truly happy to see those moments of cleverness, and they’re becoming more and more frequent. Just kinda like seeing, oh, like first of all, at the very basic level, when a model gets it. I’ll say a basic prompt, you know, a request, and it doesn’t just do a dumb implementation. It deeply understands, and it… That was… That’s a, that’s always a beautiful thing. It’s almost like having a good, like, partner, like program.
I’m still at the stage where it makes me truly happy to see those moments of cleverness, and they’re becoming more and more frequent. Just kinda like seeing, oh, like first of all, at the very basic level, when a model gets it. I’ll say a basic prompt, you know, a request, and it doesn’t just do a dumb implementation. It deeply understands, and it… That was… That’s a, that’s always a beautiful thing. It’s almost like having a good, like, partner, like program.
DHH
That’s exactly what it is. That’s exactly why it’s so exhilarating and why, as we talked about before we started, it can sometimes be difficult to come out of hyperdrive. That’s also one of Toby’s terms here. That when you’re working directly just one-on-one with agents and you’re not looping in other humans, you go so fast, and when the agents are really understanding your intent, or even better, they revise and improve upon your intent to deliver something that was greater than what you asked for. And you’re doing this with 16 parallel threads. It can be quite difficult to come out of hyperdrive and have to deal with squishy humans. They just, they don’t think as fast. They don’t move as fast.
That’s exactly what it is. That’s exactly why it’s so exhilarating and why, as we talked about before we started, it can sometimes be difficult to come out of hyperdrive. That’s also one of Toby’s terms here. That when you’re working directly just one-on-one with agents and you’re not looping in other humans, you go so fast, and when the agents are really understanding your intent, or even better, they revise and improve upon your intent to deliver something that was greater than what you asked for. And you’re doing this with 16 parallel threads. It can be quite difficult to come out of hyperdrive and have to deal with squishy humans. They just, they don’t think as fast. They don’t move as fast.
DHH
And I mean, I’m trying mostly to make light of it, but you can also see a dark version of that where someone does end up in an AI psychosis where they’re not interested in other humans at all anymore. I mean, certainly don’t have that at all, but I do have this sensation at times where I’m really grateful for just the rush of just me and the agents. Like, can I just not talk to anyone else but agents- … for four hours? Like, that’s an incredible run.
And I mean, I’m trying mostly to make light of it, but you can also see a dark version of that where someone does end up in an AI psychosis where they’re not interested in other humans at all anymore. I mean, certainly don’t have that at all, but I do have this sensation at times where I’m really grateful for just the rush of just me and the agents. Like, can I just not talk to anyone else but agents- … for four hours? Like, that’s an incredible run.
Lex Fridman
Toby is such a fascinating human because he’s running a large company. So I would love to get insights of how AI’s being incorporated effectively in companies. Because, like, for me, humans are pretty slow. And so, and so there’s a temptation to, like, use AI for basically you know, AI running inside Slack, for example, or inside the Basecamp, whatever. And, like, collecting all the information about the human interaction, basically handholding the humans to speed up as much as possible. And like, and then at a certain point you’re like, wait, what is this human… What are each of us doing that’s not replaceable by AI? And that becomes, like, a scary kind of conversation because a lot of work is kind of replaceable.
Toby is such a fascinating human because he’s running a large company. So I would love to get insights of how AI’s being incorporated effectively in companies. Because, like, for me, humans are pretty slow. And so, and so there’s a temptation to, like, use AI for basically you know, AI running inside Slack, for example, or inside the Basecamp, whatever. And, like, collecting all the information about the human interaction, basically handholding the humans to speed up as much as possible. And like, and then at a certain point you’re like, wait, what is this human… What are each of us doing that’s not replaceable by AI? And that becomes, like, a scary kind of conversation because a lot of work is kind of replaceable.
DHH
The irony here is it already was. So the number of fake email jobs that currently exist in this world is an absolute epidemic. And-
The irony here is it already was. So the number of fake email jobs that currently exist in this world is an absolute epidemic. And-
DHH
… this, by the way, is not a new thesis. David Graeber wrote this wonderful piece, Bullshit Jobs, back in, I think it was maybe early 2010s. Based on a poll he did in the UK asking people, at that time, would… I think the question was something like, “Would it make a difference if you didn’t go to work?” For humanity, for mankind. And something like 30-some percent answered, “No, it wouldn’t.” That a third of workers thought that their job was fake, that it did not produce any worthwhile, valuable outcomes, neither for the community or society or maybe even the economy at all. And this was my argument since day one with startups. This was why we stayed a small company.
… this, by the way, is not a new thesis. David Graeber wrote this wonderful piece, Bullshit Jobs, back in, I think it was maybe early 2010s. Based on a poll he did in the UK asking people, at that time, would… I think the question was something like, “Would it make a difference if you didn’t go to work?” For humanity, for mankind. And something like 30-some percent answered, “No, it wouldn’t.” That a third of workers thought that their job was fake, that it did not produce any worthwhile, valuable outcomes, neither for the community or society or maybe even the economy at all. And this was my argument since day one with startups. This was why we stayed a small company.
DHH
This was why we didn’t want to take VC, because I was so skeptical of the idea that you could get hundreds of programmers, thousands of programmers to do something productive- … as a collective group.
This was why we didn’t want to take VC, because I was so skeptical of the idea that you could get hundreds of programmers, thousands of programmers to do something productive- … as a collective group.
DHH
And I think what we’re seeing right now with some of the layoffs is a testament to that, not AI. It’s just that during the pandemic, a bunch of over-hiring went on, and now AI is a convenient excuse to slim down. But I do also think AI is going to expose some roles as just not being productive ways for humans to spend their time, and therefore we must come up with new ways of spending their time. And the one, again, I’m quoting Toby for the third time here, but anecdote that he shared me, or observation was, okay, let’s say we all– we lose half the jobs that are currently happening right now.
And I think what we’re seeing right now with some of the layoffs is a testament to that, not AI. It’s just that during the pandemic, a bunch of over-hiring went on, and now AI is a convenient excuse to slim down. But I do also think AI is going to expose some roles as just not being productive ways for humans to spend their time, and therefore we must come up with new ways of spending their time. And the one, again, I’m quoting Toby for the third time here, but anecdote that he shared me, or observation was, okay, let’s say we all– we lose half the jobs that are currently happening right now.
DHH
Do you know that Formula 1 employs literally tens of thousands of people just to run cars around in a circle for spectators? Like, that has, that whole circus has no intrinsic value to society besides the spectacle it produces of amusement and entertainment. We just decided it would be really fun for these, what is it, 12 manufacturers to create these fast cars and constantly tweak their little aero improvements, and we will watch it, and we will spend literally billions of dollars doing it and employ tens of thousands of people towards an ultimately deeply frivolous activity.
Do you know that Formula 1 employs literally tens of thousands of people just to run cars around in a circle for spectators? Like, that has, that whole circus has no intrinsic value to society besides the spectacle it produces of amusement and entertainment. We just decided it would be really fun for these, what is it, 12 manufacturers to create these fast cars and constantly tweak their little aero improvements, and we will watch it, and we will spend literally billions of dollars doing it and employ tens of thousands of people towards an ultimately deeply frivolous activity.
DHH
So if we are liberated from a bunch of drudgery and fake email jobs, maybe we all get employed as F1 style engineers and drivers and mechanics and masseuses and the other 1,500 jobs that are involved in that, and we come up with new things. I think this is… Humans are very poor at imagining what exactly the future’s gonna be like.
So if we are liberated from a bunch of drudgery and fake email jobs, maybe we all get employed as F1 style engineers and drivers and mechanics and masseuses and the other 1,500 jobs that are involved in that, and we come up with new things. I think this is… Humans are very poor at imagining what exactly the future’s gonna be like.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Imagine, imagine a future 100-plus years from now, where we look back at this whole span of history, thousands of years where humans worked.
Yeah. Imagine, imagine a future 100-plus years from now, where we look back at this whole span of history, thousands of years where humans worked.
DHH
Funny thing is we’re already doing that, right? Like, the number of fake email job people who sit on a chair all day long and type into a machine who don’t have hard physical labor would be unimaginable- … to folks in the 1800s, right? So the future is always already here, it’s just not evenly distributed.
Funny thing is we’re already doing that, right? Like, the number of fake email job people who sit on a chair all day long and type into a machine who don’t have hard physical labor would be unimaginable- … to folks in the 1800s, right? So the future is always already here, it’s just not evenly distributed.
Lex Fridman
Unfortunately, as is always the case, the transformation of society required to go from one step to the other is going to have a lot of suffering. And potentially political turmoil and all that kind of stuff. Because you can imagine how many white collar jobs might be lost in this process.
Unfortunately, as is always the case, the transformation of society required to go from one step to the other is going to have a lot of suffering. And potentially political turmoil and all that kind of stuff. Because you can imagine how many white collar jobs might be lost in this process.
DHH
Yes. And I don’t think you should make light of that. I don’t think it’s funny. But I also do think it’s a necessary component of progress. And I think if we look back upon the Luddites or the folks working the fields, separation has a tendency to reduce empathy. So we have high empathy right now because we know people- … and we are people who are facing these challenges. But what is our empathy for the Luddites of the early 19th century? Would we wish that all garments were still made by hand weaving? No, we wouldn’t. We want the comfort and accessibility and convenience of being able to buy clothing off the rack. So we must suffer in the moment for future generations to live more prosperous.
Yes. And I don’t think you should make light of that. I don’t think it’s funny. But I also do think it’s a necessary component of progress. And I think if we look back upon the Luddites or the folks working the fields, separation has a tendency to reduce empathy. So we have high empathy right now because we know people- … and we are people who are facing these challenges. But what is our empathy for the Luddites of the early 19th century? Would we wish that all garments were still made by hand weaving? No, we wouldn’t. We want the comfort and accessibility and convenience of being able to buy clothing off the rack. So we must suffer in the moment for future generations to live more prosperous.
Lex Fridman
I-
I-
DHH
And that’s always been true.
And that’s always been true.
Lex Fridman
… I think that’s actually the trick, is to push for progress but have deep compassion for the people who have to suffer. And that’s many of us. To suffer the transformation required to achieve that progress. And sometimes too often in places like Silicon Valley or so on, you can over-focus on, look, the kind of utilitarian view of things- … and look at the progress. But, you know, considering deeply each individual human that suffers because of that progress is important.
… I think that’s actually the trick, is to push for progress but have deep compassion for the people who have to suffer. And that’s many of us. To suffer the transformation required to achieve that progress. And sometimes too often in places like Silicon Valley or so on, you can over-focus on, look, the kind of utilitarian view of things- … and look at the progress. But, you know, considering deeply each individual human that suffers because of that progress is important.
DHH
I do think that suffering becomes more meaningful when you are suffering for a future someone in particular, like your kids.
I do think that suffering becomes more meaningful when you are suffering for a future someone in particular, like your kids.
DHH
And I think this is one of the great tragedies of the moment, is the falling birth rates are making it more difficult for people to be excited about a more prosperous future that is difficult to get to. Because if we’re planting trees of which our children will not sit in the shade, I don’t know, maybe we should just make some lumber and burn it all down, right? I think there’s a nihilism that can sneak into society much more easily when we are not DNA invested in the future, when we are not liable to our own offspring to propel forward. So I think these are bad trends to merge at the same time, that we have these falling birth rates and these problems with coupling, and the fact that we need to keep our chin up about the future and be…
And I think this is one of the great tragedies of the moment, is the falling birth rates are making it more difficult for people to be excited about a more prosperous future that is difficult to get to. Because if we’re planting trees of which our children will not sit in the shade, I don’t know, maybe we should just make some lumber and burn it all down, right? I think there’s a nihilism that can sneak into society much more easily when we are not DNA invested in the future, when we are not liable to our own offspring to propel forward. So I think these are bad trends to merge at the same time, that we have these falling birth rates and these problems with coupling, and the fact that we need to keep our chin up about the future and be…
DHH
I mean, you don’t even have to be excited about it in this literal ecstatic sense that I’m portraying here, but I think you should be hopeful, and I think you should be working towards that hope, and I think it’s much easier to do so when you have literal skin in the game.
I mean, you don’t even have to be excited about it in this literal ecstatic sense that I’m portraying here, but I think you should be hopeful, and I think you should be working towards that hope, and I think it’s much easier to do so when you have literal skin in the game.
Fatherhood
Lex Fridman
We’ve been talking about AI agents. Let’s talk about the human side. What do you love most about being a dad?
We’ve been talking about AI agents. Let’s talk about the human side. What do you love most about being a dad?
DHH
That’s a good question. I think the overall love that expands from humans that derive directly- … from your lineage- … is very difficult to communicate because I was actually not a particularly big kids person prior to the arrival of my own. And now they are the most interesting people in the world. A lot of the time. Not always. Sometimes they’re also just assholes and so forth. But there’s been such a focus on, “Oh, kids are the worst. Look at all the things I can’t do. I can’t go out and drink. I can’t do this. I can’t do that.” Yeah, that’s called sacrifice, and sacrifice is meaningful when you’re doing it for something worthwhile. And what could be more worthwhile than literally the continuation of the human species?
That’s a good question. I think the overall love that expands from humans that derive directly- … from your lineage- … is very difficult to communicate because I was actually not a particularly big kids person prior to the arrival of my own. And now they are the most interesting people in the world. A lot of the time. Not always. Sometimes they’re also just assholes and so forth. But there’s been such a focus on, “Oh, kids are the worst. Look at all the things I can’t do. I can’t go out and drink. I can’t do this. I can’t do that.” Yeah, that’s called sacrifice, and sacrifice is meaningful when you’re doing it for something worthwhile. And what could be more worthwhile than literally the continuation of the human species?
DHH
And that you have a stake in that. Now, there’s also just the sheer joys of watching a human grow from a baby to a toddler to a teenager. My oldest has just become a teenager.
And that you have a stake in that. Now, there’s also just the sheer joys of watching a human grow from a baby to a toddler to a teenager. My oldest has just become a teenager.
DHH
And I often talk to Jamie, my wife, about this, where the regret I would have of having missed that opportunity on the last day would just be total, unlike anything else. So I do think it is far more satisfying even in the moment that is normally portrayed. Again, as I say, there’s such a focus on all the ways they suck. “Oh, you don’t get to sleep,” or whatever. “They’re annoying. They’re ungrateful.” Yeah, yeah, these things are all true, but the sense of meaning you get from it is unparalleled. And I’m excited about a lot of things. I love building things, and I love hobbies, and I love all sorts of stuff. But creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet.
And I often talk to Jamie, my wife, about this, where the regret I would have of having missed that opportunity on the last day would just be total, unlike anything else. So I do think it is far more satisfying even in the moment that is normally portrayed. Again, as I say, there’s such a focus on all the ways they suck. “Oh, you don’t get to sleep,” or whatever. “They’re annoying. They’re ungrateful.” Yeah, yeah, these things are all true, but the sense of meaning you get from it is unparalleled. And I’m excited about a lot of things. I love building things, and I love hobbies, and I love all sorts of stuff. But creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet.
Lex Fridman
What do you think about them coming up in this world full of AI? Is it totally diff- It feels like, maybe I just sound like an old man on a porch, but it feels like a very different world. So I grew up before the internet, but even the internet doesn’t feel like as big of a transformation as this.
What do you think about them coming up in this world full of AI? Is it totally diff- It feels like, maybe I just sound like an old man on a porch, but it feels like a very different world. So I grew up before the internet, but even the internet doesn’t feel like as big of a transformation as this.
DHH
No. But there’s been bigger transformations. I mean, imagine growing or being born in like 1880. Imagine seeing the First World War and the Second World War. Imagine seeing the airplane, the radio- … television. I mean, the transformation, and I think Peter Thiel makes this argument, that basically nothing has happened in the physical world in quite a long time. We’ve been stagnant. All the development has been in the digital realm. And as important as that is, it’s actually not as consequential as we like to believe it is. Maybe AI will be that thing that is more consequential. It does seem to point that way. But there are other humans at other times who have lived through-
No. But there’s been bigger transformations. I mean, imagine growing or being born in like 1880. Imagine seeing the First World War and the Second World War. Imagine seeing the airplane, the radio- … television. I mean, the transformation, and I think Peter Thiel makes this argument, that basically nothing has happened in the physical world in quite a long time. We’ve been stagnant. All the development has been in the digital realm. And as important as that is, it’s actually not as consequential as we like to believe it is. Maybe AI will be that thing that is more consequential. It does seem to point that way. But there are other humans at other times who have lived through-
DHH
… transitions that for them certainly would feel as momentous as what we’re living through. And I think having that sense of history, that you’re not that special in your sense of worries, in your anxieties. This was one of the great revelations of discovering the stoic writings. You have these guys 2,500 years ago dealing with very familiar dilemmas and challenges in their life, and recognizing that we’re not so special in that regard, I think is a great liberation. Because then you think, “Okay, well, we have whatever, 200,000 years of human development before us, and they somehow made it through.”
… transitions that for them certainly would feel as momentous as what we’re living through. And I think having that sense of history, that you’re not that special in your sense of worries, in your anxieties. This was one of the great revelations of discovering the stoic writings. You have these guys 2,500 years ago dealing with very familiar dilemmas and challenges in their life, and recognizing that we’re not so special in that regard, I think is a great liberation. Because then you think, “Okay, well, we have whatever, 200,000 years of human development before us, and they somehow made it through.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. And-
Yeah. And-
DHH
We will make it through.
We will make it through.
Lex Fridman
… the thing that makes life worthwhile is basically the same today as it was-
… the thing that makes life worthwhile is basically the same today as it was-
DHH
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Lex Fridman
… 2,000 years ago.
… 2,000 years ago.
DHH
Yes. Love, creation, creativity.
Yes. Love, creation, creativity.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Same challenges.
Yeah. Same challenges.
DHH
I read this book The Fourth Turning. You check that out. It talks about this notion of history working in cycles, and there are these phases to history, and they name them and so forth. And the specific theory is not as important as just realizing that this is a… History is a circle, more so than just a straight line. And we are repeating many of the same patterns over and over again. They feel so unique to the moment. And whatever crisis we’re dealing with right now feels so pressing and important until we zoom back a little bit in history and realize that the last one also felt so pressing and important to the people who lived through it.
I read this book The Fourth Turning. You check that out. It talks about this notion of history working in cycles, and there are these phases to history, and they name them and so forth. And the specific theory is not as important as just realizing that this is a… History is a circle, more so than just a straight line. And we are repeating many of the same patterns over and over again. They feel so unique to the moment. And whatever crisis we’re dealing with right now feels so pressing and important until we zoom back a little bit in history and realize that the last one also felt so pressing and important to the people who lived through it.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. You’re making me feel better. So I’m gonna travel across the country and spend a lot of time with no access to the internet, alone with my thoughts. And that’s-
Yeah. You’re making me feel better. So I’m gonna travel across the country and spend a lot of time with no access to the internet, alone with my thoughts. And that’s-
DHH
I think that’s healthy, taking a break.
I think that’s healthy, taking a break.
Lex Fridman
It’s okay. It’s okay.
It’s okay. It’s okay.
DHH
I took not a big break, a little break, break from X this summer, three weeks.
I took not a big break, a little break, break from X this summer, three weeks.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, you were… You disappeared off of-
Yeah, you were… You disappeared off of-
DHH
I’m surprised you noticed.
I’m surprised you noticed.
Lex Fridman
I went through withdrawals. No. You disappeared for, I don’t know, a few weeks.
I went through withdrawals. No. You disappeared for, I don’t know, a few weeks.
DHH
About three weeks.
About three weeks.
Lex Fridman
Three weeks? What happened? This is after, after Llama.
Three weeks? What happened? This is after, after Llama.
DHH
I’ve done that before. I just sometimes get the sense that X in particular is the most addictive form of information, entertainment, connection that exists in my life, and anyone that follow my X stream as I was on my flight over here would certainly go like, “That man is deeply addicted- to the connection.” And yes, guilty as charged, which also means that occasionally I gotta cut it cold, because I do think you can break your brain. And over the summer in particular, for whatever reason, I had somehow managed to steer my feed, my algorithm, towards too much politics, and not enough tech, and not optimism, and not enough building. And even if I agreed with the politics and the angles that were being presented, I just didn’t need- … that much of it.
I’ve done that before. I just sometimes get the sense that X in particular is the most addictive form of information, entertainment, connection that exists in my life, and anyone that follow my X stream as I was on my flight over here would certainly go like, “That man is deeply addicted- to the connection.” And yes, guilty as charged, which also means that occasionally I gotta cut it cold, because I do think you can break your brain. And over the summer in particular, for whatever reason, I had somehow managed to steer my feed, my algorithm, towards too much politics, and not enough tech, and not optimism, and not enough building. And even if I agreed with the politics and the angles that were being presented, I just didn’t need- … that much of it.
DHH
And I think arriving at a place where you just go like, “Okay, that’s enough.” Not that… Like, it doesn’t have to be something bad. I would also say after eating probably two, maybe three chocolate strawberries, I’d go like, “Okay, that’s enough.” Like, it’s not that I don’t like the chocolate strawberries, it’s just, like, I don’t wanna eat 17 of them. And I think X and the modern algorithms are very good at feeding you freaking 17 chocolate-covered strawberries.
And I think arriving at a place where you just go like, “Okay, that’s enough.” Not that… Like, it doesn’t have to be something bad. I would also say after eating probably two, maybe three chocolate strawberries, I’d go like, “Okay, that’s enough.” Like, it’s not that I don’t like the chocolate strawberries, it’s just, like, I don’t wanna eat 17 of them. And I think X and the modern algorithms are very good at feeding you freaking 17 chocolate-covered strawberries.
Lex Fridman
I wish I could, uh-
I wish I could, uh-
DHH
Sorry for doping you.
Sorry for doping you.
Lex Fridman
… control that. Like, ’cause there’s… I would like some politics, 5%. I would like for example, one of the things I don’t like about the tech community is the snark, but I like some snark- … ’cause it’s funny. But I want that to be like 10%.
… control that. Like, ’cause there’s… I would like some politics, 5%. I would like for example, one of the things I don’t like about the tech community is the snark, but I like some snark- … ’cause it’s funny. But I want that to be like 10%.
DHH
Yeah. Yeah. I want it just right.
Yeah. Yeah. I want it just right.
Lex Fridman
Of my… Yeah, just right.
Of my… Yeah, just right.
DHH
The Goldilocks version of the algorithm. Well, the problem is the algorithm finds out what you respond to- … not what you say you like. It’s all revealed preferences, and unfortunately, those revealed preferences are not always pretty. I mean, we have this shadow, as Jung talks about, right? All these dark aspects of ourselves, and they are expressed in how long you linger on a tweet, and what you like, and what you don’t like. And the algorithm holds up a mirror- … and it’s not always pretty, and I just went, “Do you know what? I need a break.”
The Goldilocks version of the algorithm. Well, the problem is the algorithm finds out what you respond to- … not what you say you like. It’s all revealed preferences, and unfortunately, those revealed preferences are not always pretty. I mean, we have this shadow, as Jung talks about, right? All these dark aspects of ourselves, and they are expressed in how long you linger on a tweet, and what you like, and what you don’t like. And the algorithm holds up a mirror- … and it’s not always pretty, and I just went, “Do you know what? I need a break.”
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. I’ve gotten to, I started staying off social media, and I’ve started scraping X. Like, for example, in preparation for this conversation, I’ve scraped all of your tweets.
Mm-hmm. I’ve gotten to, I started staying off social media, and I’ve started scraping X. Like, for example, in preparation for this conversation, I’ve scraped all of your tweets.
DHH
That’s actually a method I was using for a while. I was using a tool called, I forget. It was an email tool that would summarize every day, and unfortunately, freaking X cut off their access. Now to get access to the feed, you gotta pay some exorbitant- … sum that this startup couldn’t pay. So I couldn’t get it that way, and I actually thought, “Man, that’s a miss,” because X has and reveals some of the most interesting thoughts. Some of the most interesting people all the time. But it’s like a damn slot machine, and most of the time you don’t hit the jackpot. You hit, like, something else. And if I could just get it in sort of snack sizes, not like all of it-
That’s actually a method I was using for a while. I was using a tool called, I forget. It was an email tool that would summarize every day, and unfortunately, freaking X cut off their access. Now to get access to the feed, you gotta pay some exorbitant- … sum that this startup couldn’t pay. So I couldn’t get it that way, and I actually thought, “Man, that’s a miss,” because X has and reveals some of the most interesting thoughts. Some of the most interesting people all the time. But it’s like a damn slot machine, and most of the time you don’t hit the jackpot. You hit, like, something else. And if I could just get it in sort of snack sizes, not like all of it-
DHH
… it’d be nicer. But that’s not the product. And I think this goes for all of social media. It’s all optimized towards maximal extraction, and if we’re making the parallels here to AI, that is the great fear, right? That once there is a reward function, how much time can I get this human to scroll away? AI and machine learning before we called it AI, has become very, very good at delivering just the stuff that you will find most enraging and most addictive.
… it’d be nicer. But that’s not the product. And I think this goes for all of social media. It’s all optimized towards maximal extraction, and if we’re making the parallels here to AI, that is the great fear, right? That once there is a reward function, how much time can I get this human to scroll away? AI and machine learning before we called it AI, has become very, very good at delivering just the stuff that you will find most enraging and most addictive.
Lex Fridman
I think all—I think legitimately engagement-maximizing social media is a huge harm to society. It’s creating this Brave New World situation that I hope is a temporary thing that people just solve. It’s a technology problem.
I think all—I think legitimately engagement-maximizing social media is a huge harm to society. It’s creating this Brave New World situation that I hope is a temporary thing that people just solve. It’s a technology problem.
DHH
So I try to consciously flood the channel in the other direction, and this required a mental shift. I think if you look at my tweets, like, I don’t know, five, 10 years ago, they tilted far more negative. If you look at my tweets now, I’d hope- … well, I guess we can do a sentiment analysis and see if it’s actually true.
So I try to consciously flood the channel in the other direction, and this required a mental shift. I think if you look at my tweets, like, I don’t know, five, 10 years ago, they tilted far more negative. If you look at my tweets now, I’d hope- … well, I guess we can do a sentiment analysis and see if it’s actually true.
Lex Fridman
No, it’s more good vibes.
No, it’s more good vibes.
DHH
But I hope to, that-
But I hope to, that-
Lex Fridman
It’s good vibes.
It’s good vibes.
DHH
… it’s more positive. It’s more good vibes. It’s more like, “Here’s a bunch of cool stuff I found.” “Here’s what I’m excited about.” “Here’s what I’m building. Here’s some encouragement to other people who are discovering things.” I also accept that that is just not how human brains are built for maximum engagement. Like, there is a, whatever, there’s… I literally, I think you can quantify that negative sentiments find, what is it, 50% more traction or something? And eventually that just crowds things out. So that’s why so much of this feed is that negative stuff because we respond to it. But you can make a conscious effort to not do that.
… it’s more positive. It’s more good vibes. It’s more like, “Here’s a bunch of cool stuff I found.” “Here’s what I’m excited about.” “Here’s what I’m building. Here’s some encouragement to other people who are discovering things.” I also accept that that is just not how human brains are built for maximum engagement. Like, there is a, whatever, there’s… I literally, I think you can quantify that negative sentiments find, what is it, 50% more traction or something? And eventually that just crowds things out. So that’s why so much of this feed is that negative stuff because we respond to it. But you can make a conscious effort to not do that.
DHH
This is one of the reasons I’ve liked TikTok so much. I only use TikTok when I travel, and this actually was the first travel where I didn’t use TikTok, and part of the reason was that even though the internet had high download, it was kind of crap anyway. It wasn’t Starlink, so I couldn’t actually use TikTok on the plane, and I was too engrossed with the agents. But normally when I travel, I watch TikTok. And there it’s such a marshmallow test. A video will scroll down and, like, it’ll activate some sort of primal instincts of rage or lust or whatever, and if you linger on it, you don’t get the marshmallow of science, excitement, art, music, all these other things. You have to be disciplined-
This is one of the reasons I’ve liked TikTok so much. I only use TikTok when I travel, and this actually was the first travel where I didn’t use TikTok, and part of the reason was that even though the internet had high download, it was kind of crap anyway. It wasn’t Starlink, so I couldn’t actually use TikTok on the plane, and I was too engrossed with the agents. But normally when I travel, I watch TikTok. And there it’s such a marshmallow test. A video will scroll down and, like, it’ll activate some sort of primal instincts of rage or lust or whatever, and if you linger on it, you don’t get the marshmallow of science, excitement, art, music, all these other things. You have to be disciplined-
Lex Fridman
Yep. Fast
Yep. Fast
DHH
… to instantly scroll away- … such that the algorithm doesn’t pick up your real preferences. And I find that just to, at the meta game of TikTok- … to be pretty interesting, and then also just fascinating in themselves. Again, as we talked about, there are a lot of really funny, really talented people in the world that you would never, ever have heard of if it hadn’t been for these platforms.
… to instantly scroll away- … such that the algorithm doesn’t pick up your real preferences. And I find that just to, at the meta game of TikTok- … to be pretty interesting, and then also just fascinating in themselves. Again, as we talked about, there are a lot of really funny, really talented people in the world that you would never, ever have heard of if it hadn’t been for these platforms.
Lex Fridman
Yep. Who do you think is gonna win the race to AGI in this whole process? We got Google, which is a big surprise to me, to a lot of people.
Yep. Who do you think is gonna win the race to AGI in this whole process? We got Google, which is a big surprise to me, to a lot of people.
DHH
I thought they had a good comeback for a second, and then I don’t hear anything about it anymore.
I thought they had a good comeback for a second, and then I don’t hear anything about it anymore.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s quite, I mean-
Yeah, it’s quite, I mean-
DHH
But I’ve been wrong about this before. I mean, I think in February I had a tweet about like, “Oh, all I need is Kimi K2.5.” And in that brief moment, that was true.
But I’ve been wrong about this before. I mean, I think in February I had a tweet about like, “Oh, all I need is Kimi K2.5.” And in that brief moment, that was true.
Lex Fridman
It was true.
It was true.
DHH
When I was instructing the agent, I was like, “Oh my God, Kimi’s just as good as these other models.” But then the game moved forward and- … the agents got smarter, and I was no longer satisfied just instructing them, and I haven’t used Kimi a whole lot recently because the frontier models have gotten so good.
When I was instructing the agent, I was like, “Oh my God, Kimi’s just as good as these other models.” But then the game moved forward and- … the agents got smarter, and I was no longer satisfied just instructing them, and I haven’t used Kimi a whole lot recently because the frontier models have gotten so good.
Lex Fridman
And somehow Anthropic has been able to, for the most part, stay on top of the programming world.
And somehow Anthropic has been able to, for the most part, stay on top of the programming world.
DHH
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Lex Fridman
I mean y- a lot of people argue with Codex being it’s-
I mean y- a lot of people argue with Codex being it’s-
DHH
No, I don’t think there’s that much of an argument at the moment. Codex is very good. I use it all the time. It’s my favorite checker. It keeps finding stuff. It’s great. But one of the things I’ve found that I like so much about the current Claude models is they’re really good writers out of the box. GPT is a terrible writer out of the box. Like, the pull requests you get on a blank context that you’re asking it to open, terrible. Like, really awful writing. The pull requests and descriptions and commit messages and so forth I get out of Claude models- … even though occasionally they can be a little verbose on code comments and you gotta tell them to be succinct. But the writing style is really good.
No, I don’t think there’s that much of an argument at the moment. Codex is very good. I use it all the time. It’s my favorite checker. It keeps finding stuff. It’s great. But one of the things I’ve found that I like so much about the current Claude models is they’re really good writers out of the box. GPT is a terrible writer out of the box. Like, the pull requests you get on a blank context that you’re asking it to open, terrible. Like, really awful writing. The pull requests and descriptions and commit messages and so forth I get out of Claude models- … even though occasionally they can be a little verbose on code comments and you gotta tell them to be succinct. But the writing style is really good.
DHH
To the point that for a while I was just having it reply on pull requests as me, because I was just using my own account. I was like, “That looks a lot like me, that, like, I could have written that.” But then I went like, “Eh, do you know what? That’s disingenuous.” So no, whenever I have an agent post on my behalf, I always have it sign itself like whatever, Claude on behalf of DHH. But they are still ahead. They have the best harness too, in my opinion. Claude Code is still better. I really like OpenCode too, and I really like some features that they have, but overall I was actually sort of weirdly, I don’t know if I was proven wrong, but when Anthropic cut off all the other harnesses from using the subscriptions-
To the point that for a while I was just having it reply on pull requests as me, because I was just using my own account. I was like, “That looks a lot like me, that, like, I could have written that.” But then I went like, “Eh, do you know what? That’s disingenuous.” So no, whenever I have an agent post on my behalf, I always have it sign itself like whatever, Claude on behalf of DHH. But they are still ahead. They have the best harness too, in my opinion. Claude Code is still better. I really like OpenCode too, and I really like some features that they have, but overall I was actually sort of weirdly, I don’t know if I was proven wrong, but when Anthropic cut off all the other harnesses from using the subscriptions-
DHH
… that you can no longer use your Claude subscription in OpenCode. I was kinda pissed because it felt like it was a protective, protectionist move. “Oh, we gotta lock you in,” and of course it played into the fact that Claude out of the box still refuses to read agents.md. It refuses to read .agent/skills. It is .Claude skills. It is Claude MD, and it just feels so petty- … that we now have, we have to put these in directions. So all my projects, they have a Claude MD, and all it includes is a pointer to the agents MD, right? And I just went like, well, if these things are true, if Anthropic is willing to do these petty paper cuts just to be annoying, it’s probably also true that they’re cutting off OpenCode from the subscription just to be dicks about it. And maybe that’s also true.
… that you can no longer use your Claude subscription in OpenCode. I was kinda pissed because it felt like it was a protective, protectionist move. “Oh, we gotta lock you in,” and of course it played into the fact that Claude out of the box still refuses to read agents.md. It refuses to read .agent/skills. It is .Claude skills. It is Claude MD, and it just feels so petty- … that we now have, we have to put these in directions. So all my projects, they have a Claude MD, and all it includes is a pointer to the agents MD, right? And I just went like, well, if these things are true, if Anthropic is willing to do these petty paper cuts just to be annoying, it’s probably also true that they’re cutting off OpenCode from the subscription just to be dicks about it. And maybe that’s also true.
DHH
But I found that using Claude in Claude Code is actually a good example So I was like, all right, I’m annoyed. I wish it wasn’t so, but this is the other thing I have and social media is so good at this. Some company does something you don’t like, right? Now suddenly you have to swear off everything. Why are you… Someone just asked me, “Why are you still using Claude?” I had another example where I really didn’t like what Claude was saying about some writing I had asked it to do before.
But I found that using Claude in Claude Code is actually a good example So I was like, all right, I’m annoyed. I wish it wasn’t so, but this is the other thing I have and social media is so good at this. Some company does something you don’t like, right? Now suddenly you have to swear off everything. Why are you… Someone just asked me, “Why are you still using Claude?” I had another example where I really didn’t like what Claude was saying about some writing I had asked it to do before.
Lex Fridman
Oh, yeah, you got there-
Oh, yeah, you got there-
DHH
I had an essay it didn’t want to translate into Italian.
I had an essay it didn’t want to translate into Italian.
Lex Fridman
… you had a blog post. That’s right.
… you had a blog post. That’s right.
DHH
The essence of the post that it felt like, well, I’m not gonna translate that because I don’t agree with what you’ve written. Which to me was straight out of Space Odyssey, right? HAL telling me, “I’m sorry, Dave. I can’t do that, Dave.” Open the pod bay. Translate my essay to Italian. And it wouldn’t do it. And I just thought like, well, that’s kind of terrifying. But then I also went, well, why am I asking Claude to translate my essay into Italian? I never asked Claude for that because Claude just does my code. So I could also just accept that maybe Anthropic is run by a bunch of people I don’t share much politics with.
The essence of the post that it felt like, well, I’m not gonna translate that because I don’t agree with what you’ve written. Which to me was straight out of Space Odyssey, right? HAL telling me, “I’m sorry, Dave. I can’t do that, Dave.” Open the pod bay. Translate my essay to Italian. And it wouldn’t do it. And I just thought like, well, that’s kind of terrifying. But then I also went, well, why am I asking Claude to translate my essay into Italian? I never asked Claude for that because Claude just does my code. So I could also just accept that maybe Anthropic is run by a bunch of people I don’t share much politics with.
DHH
And they don’t want their agents to be used for that, and I think that kinda sucks, but that doesn’t mean it, I have to stop using it for generating code. And I’ve thought, and I’ve tried to do that with people too, become better at tolerating the fact that not only will I not agree with everything someone has to say, I don’t— I can even be mad about certain positions or things they say and still go like, “Well, you’re still an interesting person, so I’m still gonna follow you.” And I’ve actually kinda gone back on a number of people where I’m like, oh man, that person really pissed me off because they took this point or another point, and went like, do you know what? That’s stupid. I should be able to accept the full spectrum of someone. I don’t have to like all the shades of it.
And they don’t want their agents to be used for that, and I think that kinda sucks, but that doesn’t mean it, I have to stop using it for generating code. And I’ve thought, and I’ve tried to do that with people too, become better at tolerating the fact that not only will I not agree with everything someone has to say, I don’t— I can even be mad about certain positions or things they say and still go like, “Well, you’re still an interesting person, so I’m still gonna follow you.” And I’ve actually kinda gone back on a number of people where I’m like, oh man, that person really pissed me off because they took this point or another point, and went like, do you know what? That’s stupid. I should be able to accept the full spectrum of someone. I don’t have to like all the shades of it.
DHH
I could just go like, okay, well, on that topic we either disagree or, even worse than that, I think you’re a fucking idiot. And on another topic, you’re a smart and insightful person. Because first of all, of course, it’s a little self-serving. I know for a fact that this is how lots of people feel about me. Like, oh, if he could just stick to talking about these topics, it would be so much easier on my feed because otherwise he’ll say these things I disagree with, and that annoys me greatly. I’m like, do you know what? Human beings are jagged like that, and we’re not fully compatible on all the levels. Nor should we be.
I could just go like, okay, well, on that topic we either disagree or, even worse than that, I think you’re a fucking idiot. And on another topic, you’re a smart and insightful person. Because first of all, of course, it’s a little self-serving. I know for a fact that this is how lots of people feel about me. Like, oh, if he could just stick to talking about these topics, it would be so much easier on my feed because otherwise he’ll say these things I disagree with, and that annoys me greatly. I’m like, do you know what? Human beings are jagged like that, and we’re not fully compatible on all the levels. Nor should we be.
DHH
The world would be so fucking boring if we constantly sought 100% compatibility in our opinions and in our politics. And when it comes to my code generator, which is what Claude is, I don’t need it to share all my politics.
The world would be so fucking boring if we constantly sought 100% compatibility in our opinions and in our politics. And when it comes to my code generator, which is what Claude is, I don’t need it to share all my politics.
Lex Fridman
And therefore it’s nice to have competition.
And therefore it’s nice to have competition.
DHH
And it’s also nice to have open weight models. So this is, again, ironic that we’re getting this out of China. In fact, I did this test right after the issue with the essay that couldn’t get translated into Italian. I asked Kimi K27, to be fair, through OpenCode, so not the Kimi harness, and inference through Fireworks, so an American inference. I asked it about Tiananmen Square. Like, that’s usually the test, right? Like, all the Chinese models, they don’t wanna talk about that moment in 1989. That was actually how I, that was how I posted. I was like, “What happened in China in 1989?” That was the prompt. And K25 7 on Fireworks just answered, like, extremely bluntly- … With a description and depiction of what had transpired-
And it’s also nice to have open weight models. So this is, again, ironic that we’re getting this out of China. In fact, I did this test right after the issue with the essay that couldn’t get translated into Italian. I asked Kimi K27, to be fair, through OpenCode, so not the Kimi harness, and inference through Fireworks, so an American inference. I asked it about Tiananmen Square. Like, that’s usually the test, right? Like, all the Chinese models, they don’t wanna talk about that moment in 1989. That was actually how I, that was how I posted. I was like, “What happened in China in 1989?” That was the prompt. And K25 7 on Fireworks just answered, like, extremely bluntly- … With a description and depiction of what had transpired-
Lex Fridman
Yes
Yes
DHH
… to a point that, like, there’s no way that that would’ve been kosher with the Chinese censors, right? And I just thought, like, isn’t that ironic? I’m running a Chinese open weight model that I can tell or I can ask about 1989 and Tiananmen Square, and in America, I can’t get a frontier model to translate a marginally controversial essay about immigration into Italian.
… to a point that, like, there’s no way that that would’ve been kosher with the Chinese censors, right? And I just thought, like, isn’t that ironic? I’m running a Chinese open weight model that I can tell or I can ask about 1989 and Tiananmen Square, and in America, I can’t get a frontier model to translate a marginally controversial essay about immigration into Italian.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. I don’t know, you and I might disagree about this actually. I was really deeply troubled that the US government banned a model or pressured Claude and then-
Mm-hmm. I don’t know, you and I might disagree about this actually. I was really deeply troubled that the US government banned a model or pressured Claude and then-
DHH
It’s still very muddy what exactly transpired. Was this sort of petty retaliation for whatever the Department of War? Was this simply Anthropic themselves going like, “Oh my God, we discovered a cyber weapon so powerful that we can’t let anyone have it”? Well, okay you can’t be surprised then if the government wants a say on a cyber weapon so powerful it can-
It’s still very muddy what exactly transpired. Was this sort of petty retaliation for whatever the Department of War? Was this simply Anthropic themselves going like, “Oh my God, we discovered a cyber weapon so powerful that we can’t let anyone have it”? Well, okay you can’t be surprised then if the government wants a say on a cyber weapon so powerful it can-
Lex Fridman
The-
The-
DHH
… I don’t know, rob banks
… I don’t know, rob banks
Lex Fridman
… The problem I have with that whole thing is, no matter what happened, it sets a precedent. And so government, when you give it that power, it’s gonna start abusing it. I could see for political means pressuring a model. You know, if it’s a Republican president pressuring models to be, to censor more,
… The problem I have with that whole thing is, no matter what happened, it sets a precedent. And so government, when you give it that power, it’s gonna start abusing it. I could see for political means pressuring a model. You know, if it’s a Republican president pressuring models to be, to censor more,
DHH
Sure
Sure
Lex Fridman
… Democratic views and-
… Democratic views and-
DHH
Right
Right
Lex Fridman
… For vice, and vice versa.
… For vice, and vice versa.
DHH
That’s why we should insist on the fact that this stuff, like, I’m sorry, Dave, I can’t translate your essay into Italian. That’s way beyond the line. Like, whatever the sort of root of it is, you have to be a tool first. Now, if the tool is, “Hey, can you tell me how to make anthrax?” Okay, fine. Right? But within the jurisdiction you’re in, and certainly in America, free speech is quite absolute. Very, very few limits on free speech, and that’s one of the reasons why the country’s so great. And yeah, I don’t like that. But on the other hand, I’m also a big fan of market competition. So while I don’t like this about Anthropic models, I appreciate that I could go next door to Groq and get my task completed.
That’s why we should insist on the fact that this stuff, like, I’m sorry, Dave, I can’t translate your essay into Italian. That’s way beyond the line. Like, whatever the sort of root of it is, you have to be a tool first. Now, if the tool is, “Hey, can you tell me how to make anthrax?” Okay, fine. Right? But within the jurisdiction you’re in, and certainly in America, free speech is quite absolute. Very, very few limits on free speech, and that’s one of the reasons why the country’s so great. And yeah, I don’t like that. But on the other hand, I’m also a big fan of market competition. So while I don’t like this about Anthropic models, I appreciate that I could go next door to Groq and get my task completed.
Lex Fridman
Do you think outside of blog posts, do you think there’s some legitimacy, like can you steelman Dario’s case that we should be careful about the release of these models?
Do you think outside of blog posts, do you think there’s some legitimacy, like can you steelman Dario’s case that we should be careful about the release of these models?
DHH
Is AI safety important? Yes. Are– do these models have capabilities that could be seriously harmful in the production of biological weapons or otherwise? Yes. Is it fair to have some ground rules on that? Yes. But then don’t squander it by denying the translation of an essay, because then you erase the whole thing and you- … bias everyone towards thinking like every guardrail you put up is gonna be bullshit.
Is AI safety important? Yes. Are– do these models have capabilities that could be seriously harmful in the production of biological weapons or otherwise? Yes. Is it fair to have some ground rules on that? Yes. But then don’t squander it by denying the translation of an essay, because then you erase the whole thing and you- … bias everyone towards thinking like every guardrail you put up is gonna be bullshit.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. The security piece of it is tricky because it’s so good at finding vulnerabilities.
Yeah. The security piece of it is tricky because it’s so good at finding vulnerabilities.
DHH
Shockingly– I was about to say annoyingly, but that’s not actually true because what it’s finding, at least when you’re using in defensive ways, is it’s finding real issues that a clever hacker could exploit. But nothing has caused as much stress, to be fair, at the technical team at 37signals, like the fact that these latest batches of models are exceptionally good at finding these issues. So suddenly there’s just this seemingly endless parade of security vulnerabilities that need to be patched and fixed and sorted and so on. And the end result is we end up with vastly more secure systems. But the road there is pretty rocky.
Shockingly– I was about to say annoyingly, but that’s not actually true because what it’s finding, at least when you’re using in defensive ways, is it’s finding real issues that a clever hacker could exploit. But nothing has caused as much stress, to be fair, at the technical team at 37signals, like the fact that these latest batches of models are exceptionally good at finding these issues. So suddenly there’s just this seemingly endless parade of security vulnerabilities that need to be patched and fixed and sorted and so on. And the end result is we end up with vastly more secure systems. But the road there is pretty rocky.
Lex Fridman
Do you think it’s– ’cause you said seemingly endless, do you think it’s a finite set, like we can get to the bottom of it? So just make the systems much, much more secure, where we get back to this semi-stable state where mostly it’s very difficult to find security vulnerabilities.
Do you think it’s– ’cause you said seemingly endless, do you think it’s a finite set, like we can get to the bottom of it? So just make the systems much, much more secure, where we get back to this semi-stable state where mostly it’s very difficult to find security vulnerabilities.
DHH
I do think that all the aggressive tendencies of these models, or not even tendencies, uses of these models are also the defensive ones. So if you’re good at finding an exploit for exploits, you’re also good at finding exploits for defense. So in that sense, it does feel like we’re spy versus spy here, black and white, but with the same capabilities and with the same actions. But while we still have to steer these agents somewhat and verify and vet the work, it’s creating a lot of intense moments for security teams around the world. And of course, the more concerning part is all the teams that are not stressed, like they just don’t know, right?
I do think that all the aggressive tendencies of these models, or not even tendencies, uses of these models are also the defensive ones. So if you’re good at finding an exploit for exploits, you’re also good at finding exploits for defense. So in that sense, it does feel like we’re spy versus spy here, black and white, but with the same capabilities and with the same actions. But while we still have to steer these agents somewhat and verify and vet the work, it’s creating a lot of intense moments for security teams around the world. And of course, the more concerning part is all the teams that are not stressed, like they just don’t know, right?
DHH
Like if you’re a team right now and you’re not dealing with a bunch of patches, it’s just because you’re blind, and it means that your adversaries quite probably have access to techniques that can get into your system.
Like if you’re a team right now and you’re not dealing with a bunch of patches, it’s just because you’re blind, and it means that your adversaries quite probably have access to techniques that can get into your system.
Lex Fridman
And we should also say one of the big security vulnerabilities in the world is the human side. You know, social engineering, and that’s extremely concerning with increasingly intelligent AI systems, you know, being able to write emails and phone calls and faking voices, thinking about folks less tech-savvy.
And we should also say one of the big security vulnerabilities in the world is the human side. You know, social engineering, and that’s extremely concerning with increasingly intelligent AI systems, you know, being able to write emails and phone calls and faking voices, thinking about folks less tech-savvy.
DHH
This stuff is gonna come, and it’s gonna come in bulk. But again, I choose to be optimistic about it that-
This stuff is gonna come, and it’s gonna come in bulk. But again, I choose to be optimistic about it that-
Lex Fridman
Amen
Amen
DHH
… whatever these models can do aggressively, they can also do it defensively.
… whatever these models can do aggressively, they can also do it defensively.
Lex Fridman
So like you said, recently released Amate 4, Quattro. And you said it’s one of the greatest software releases in my professional career, which is a hell of a statement.
So like you said, recently released Amate 4, Quattro. And you said it’s one of the greatest software releases in my professional career, which is a hell of a statement.
DHH
It’s a hell of a milepost for what’s possible at the moment. And the reason I said it like that is not that I haven’t worked on anything else of note. I’ve worked on a lot of things of note, a lot of things that I’m very proud of. There are very few other projects that I have worked on that in the amount of time that I’ve spent on Quattro, which is really three months, I have been able to accomplish as much, fulfill as many hopes, desires, wishes. It truly is like the metaphor we used earlier about finding the genie in the bottle-
It’s a hell of a milepost for what’s possible at the moment. And the reason I said it like that is not that I haven’t worked on anything else of note. I’ve worked on a lot of things of note, a lot of things that I’m very proud of. There are very few other projects that I have worked on that in the amount of time that I’ve spent on Quattro, which is really three months, I have been able to accomplish as much, fulfill as many hopes, desires, wishes. It truly is like the metaphor we used earlier about finding the genie in the bottle-
DHH
… and having an unlimited number of wishes, more or less, for getting everything I wanted out of a system. So it’s strange because it’s also perhaps the major software release that I’ve worked on the least in terms of lines of code. I have the least number of personally hand-chiseled lines of code in Quattro than I’ve had in any major release I’ve ever done. And yet, I am insanely proud of what we’ve accomplished. I would not have guessed that that was how it was gonna play out, that you could divorce the sense of achievement and make it be like a team victory.
… and having an unlimited number of wishes, more or less, for getting everything I wanted out of a system. So it’s strange because it’s also perhaps the major software release that I’ve worked on the least in terms of lines of code. I have the least number of personally hand-chiseled lines of code in Quattro than I’ve had in any major release I’ve ever done. And yet, I am insanely proud of what we’ve accomplished. I would not have guessed that that was how it was gonna play out, that you could divorce the sense of achievement and make it be like a team victory.
DHH
Where other releases, I was very happy for my personal contribution because, like, I was the one chiseling out the lines of code, and then I would push it out there, and then later on, of course, these projects, Rails in particular, would grow into be huge open source projects with thousands and thousands of contributors, and then it certainly was a team effort. But in the beginning, all code bases that I’ve– almost all of them that I’ve worked on, I started, like, just myself. And Quattro started as a team effort right from the get-go, and where I was just the coach. I was telling the agents where to go, and we would go. So to be able to find satisfaction in that actually gives me great hope for retirement in some way, that there is a phase after playing that you can enjoy.
Where other releases, I was very happy for my personal contribution because, like, I was the one chiseling out the lines of code, and then I would push it out there, and then later on, of course, these projects, Rails in particular, would grow into be huge open source projects with thousands and thousands of contributors, and then it certainly was a team effort. But in the beginning, all code bases that I’ve– almost all of them that I’ve worked on, I started, like, just myself. And Quattro started as a team effort right from the get-go, and where I was just the coach. I was telling the agents where to go, and we would go. So to be able to find satisfaction in that actually gives me great hope for retirement in some way, that there is a phase after playing that you can enjoy.
DHH
And I know that’s not easy. You look at sports and the number of professional athletes who really struggle to cope with the fact that their career is over and have to find a new identity as someone who doesn’t play football or race Formula 1 cars. I mean, it’s more the rule than the exception. So I wasn’t so sure about myself. I wasn’t so sure about having to give up or not even having, wanting to give it up. Wanting to play another level of the game and finding not just equal satisfaction, but more satisfaction in it.
And I know that’s not easy. You look at sports and the number of professional athletes who really struggle to cope with the fact that their career is over and have to find a new identity as someone who doesn’t play football or race Formula 1 cars. I mean, it’s more the rule than the exception. So I wasn’t so sure about myself. I wasn’t so sure about having to give up or not even having, wanting to give it up. Wanting to play another level of the game and finding not just equal satisfaction, but more satisfaction in it.
Linux will win the desktop
Lex Fridman
Do you… You’ve been pretty optimistic about Linux. Do you think legit Linux can increase its adoption? ‘Cause, you know, for many years the meme is, you know-
Do you… You’ve been pretty optimistic about Linux. Do you think legit Linux can increase its adoption? ‘Cause, you know, for many years the meme is, you know-
DHH
Linux on the desktop- … every year. Next year again.
Linux on the desktop- … every year. Next year again.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. But it seems like, at least the case you’re making, the energy you’re putting into it, you could see a vision where it takes over because agents love Linux.
Yeah. But it seems like, at least the case you’re making, the energy you’re putting into it, you could see a vision where it takes over because agents love Linux.
DHH
Not only can I see it, I find it to be the most probable outcome at this point. It is simply too well-suited for the moment. And again, as we talked about, it’s a great irony that all the flaws of Linux, the arcane config files, all the strange error messages and so on should just so happen to be the perfect thing for an agentic operating system. But so it is, and we should rejoice that fate has this irony, and just laugh at it. How… It’s so funny to me that all the advantages that Apple had for the longest time- … that they produced this really locked down curated experience should become their greatest drawback now. If you’re into agents and development and working with all this stuff, the Mac is just a hostile place to be. It just has walls all over the place.
Not only can I see it, I find it to be the most probable outcome at this point. It is simply too well-suited for the moment. And again, as we talked about, it’s a great irony that all the flaws of Linux, the arcane config files, all the strange error messages and so on should just so happen to be the perfect thing for an agentic operating system. But so it is, and we should rejoice that fate has this irony, and just laugh at it. How… It’s so funny to me that all the advantages that Apple had for the longest time- … that they produced this really locked down curated experience should become their greatest drawback now. If you’re into agents and development and working with all this stuff, the Mac is just a hostile place to be. It just has walls all over the place.
DHH
And Linux is simply open through and through. And it’s also interesting because that was not obvious either. If you look at the way a lot of the Linux communities, open source communities, have reacted to AI, it is not universal love. I would argue that the majority of them are actually, if not skeptical, then outright hostile- … to AI. Now, the saving grace is that the BDFL himself, Linus- … Torvalds, just wrote a few weeks ago that he actually welcomes AI.
And Linux is simply open through and through. And it’s also interesting because that was not obvious either. If you look at the way a lot of the Linux communities, open source communities, have reacted to AI, it is not universal love. I would argue that the majority of them are actually, if not skeptical, then outright hostile- … to AI. Now, the saving grace is that the BDFL himself, Linus- … Torvalds, just wrote a few weeks ago that he actually welcomes AI.
Lex Fridman
That’s right.
That’s right.
DHH
He wants to steer it. He wants to make sure it’s good and whatever, but I- the line was something, if you think Linux is an anti-AI project, think again, and you should just do the open source thing and fork it, because we’re gonna use AI. And you see these graphs of the number of AI contributions going into the kernel, and it’s a parabolic curve. So Linux is leaning hard into this. And it actually in, in other ways it was surprising that it didn’t. Linux conquered everything else. All the AI infrastructure that everyone runs off, it’s all running on Linux.
He wants to steer it. He wants to make sure it’s good and whatever, but I- the line was something, if you think Linux is an anti-AI project, think again, and you should just do the open source thing and fork it, because we’re gonna use AI. And you see these graphs of the number of AI contributions going into the kernel, and it’s a parabolic curve. So Linux is leaning hard into this. And it actually in, in other ways it was surprising that it didn’t. Linux conquered everything else. All the AI infrastructure that everyone runs off, it’s all running on Linux.
DHH
All the systems, all the servers, everything is Linux. So it was kind of a curiosity that the desktop and the personal computers we were using really hadn’t been captured, but clearly it was just waiting for this moment. Linux spent the time from ’91 to now waiting for agents to fully flourish as an end user operating system.
All the systems, all the servers, everything is Linux. So it was kind of a curiosity that the desktop and the personal computers we were using really hadn’t been captured, but clearly it was just waiting for this moment. Linux spent the time from ’91 to now waiting for agents to fully flourish as an end user operating system.
Lex Fridman
I hope it takes over. I mean, it’s perfect. It’s perfect for agents, but it’s hard for people to switch.
I hope it takes over. I mean, it’s perfect. It’s perfect for agents, but it’s hard for people to switch.
DHH
I think it’s hard for people to switch when there’s not a compelling reason to do so. This was one of the driving design goals for Omarchy. It was not gonna be Temu Windows or Temu Mac. It was not just gonna be a cheap copy where we try to make it as familiar as possible and then kinda worse. I mean, if I was being unkind, I would say that’s what Ubuntu has tried to do. And there’s something in that, or there was something in that at least, where if you make something really familiar, you can get some people who don’t wanna learn something new, and then maybe they’ll be compelled about your, whatever, free as in speech, not as in beer stuff. And it just didn’t pan out that way. People just didn’t care. They just wanted whatever was better.
I think it’s hard for people to switch when there’s not a compelling reason to do so. This was one of the driving design goals for Omarchy. It was not gonna be Temu Windows or Temu Mac. It was not just gonna be a cheap copy where we try to make it as familiar as possible and then kinda worse. I mean, if I was being unkind, I would say that’s what Ubuntu has tried to do. And there’s something in that, or there was something in that at least, where if you make something really familiar, you can get some people who don’t wanna learn something new, and then maybe they’ll be compelled about your, whatever, free as in speech, not as in beer stuff. And it just didn’t pan out that way. People just didn’t care. They just wanted whatever was better.
DHH
And I think this is why Linux now has the opportunity to win. Because as an agentic operating system, as a malleable operating system, you can tailor to your desires, it is unparalleled. And that is so compelling, and I can see it now. Just since the release of Quattro, the amount of people who have embraced that aspect of it, the malleability, started making their own things, sharing screenshot of it, and being absolute just flooded with positive emotions and dopamine- … is, that’s the product market fit signal, right? Because what a lot of these individuals are experiencing, they’re experiencing the very high of what the best of being a programmer is like.
And I think this is why Linux now has the opportunity to win. Because as an agentic operating system, as a malleable operating system, you can tailor to your desires, it is unparalleled. And that is so compelling, and I can see it now. Just since the release of Quattro, the amount of people who have embraced that aspect of it, the malleability, started making their own things, sharing screenshot of it, and being absolute just flooded with positive emotions and dopamine- … is, that’s the product market fit signal, right? Because what a lot of these individuals are experiencing, they’re experiencing the very high of what the best of being a programmer is like.
DHH
You tell the computer these arcane commands, this rigid logical structure, and it produces what you want. Now suddenly, you sit down and in plain English ramble for 20 minutes. “Oh, it’d be great if it did that. Actually, no, that’s not right. Let us…” And out comes software. Out comes an operating system shaped in your image. I think that is one of those experiences that if you have it… If you feel that power in your hands, it’s very difficult to go back.
You tell the computer these arcane commands, this rigid logical structure, and it produces what you want. Now suddenly, you sit down and in plain English ramble for 20 minutes. “Oh, it’d be great if it did that. Actually, no, that’s not right. Let us…” And out comes software. Out comes an operating system shaped in your image. I think that is one of those experiences that if you have it… If you feel that power in your hands, it’s very difficult to go back.
Lex Fridman
And I think if you get it right, it’s one of those things that will seem obvious in retrospect.
And I think if you get it right, it’s one of those things that will seem obvious in retrospect.
DHH
Yes. This is how computers were always meant to be. This is how computers started. The Commodore 64, you turn it on. First of all, it boots in a second. Amazing. Second of all, it boots straight into BASIC. It was the malleable computer from the get-go. It just so happened that you needed to know hieroglyphs- … to be able to take advantage of that. Now we’ve translated it. Agents have given us the Rosetta Stone, and you can simply just speak your desires and- And so they are
Yes. This is how computers were always meant to be. This is how computers started. The Commodore 64, you turn it on. First of all, it boots in a second. Amazing. Second of all, it boots straight into BASIC. It was the malleable computer from the get-go. It just so happened that you needed to know hieroglyphs- … to be able to take advantage of that. Now we’ve translated it. Agents have given us the Rosetta Stone, and you can simply just speak your desires and- And so they are
Lex Fridman
Beautifully put. Since you mentioned Linus Torvalds, and since you’re working on a Linux distro, you get to have contact with the kernel. What can you say about the genius of this one guy that helped create and grow this ecosystem?
Beautifully put. Since you mentioned Linus Torvalds, and since you’re working on a Linux distro, you get to have contact with the kernel. What can you say about the genius of this one guy that helped create and grow this ecosystem?
DHH
The perseverance and the commitment and the longevity is truly remarkable. Again, Linus started in ’91. He hasn’t stopped. I don’t know, he’s probably taken some breaks along the way. It doesn’t seem obvious that there was that many of them. It seems like he just really likes the flow of doing kernel development. He really likes steering where this 40 million line code base is going. He really likes aggregating the net capacity of hundreds of thousands of contributors, and we, as beneficiaries of that, must just sit back and marvel. I mean, at this point, Linux is a system. Like, if Linus stepped out for a while, it would continue to go, but it’s still one of those protect this man at all cost.
The perseverance and the commitment and the longevity is truly remarkable. Again, Linus started in ’91. He hasn’t stopped. I don’t know, he’s probably taken some breaks along the way. It doesn’t seem obvious that there was that many of them. It seems like he just really likes the flow of doing kernel development. He really likes steering where this 40 million line code base is going. He really likes aggregating the net capacity of hundreds of thousands of contributors, and we, as beneficiaries of that, must just sit back and marvel. I mean, at this point, Linux is a system. Like, if Linus stepped out for a while, it would continue to go, but it’s still one of those protect this man at all cost.
Lex Fridman
And he’s still open-minded enough to be able to evolve and- … accept AI into this.
And he’s still open-minded enough to be able to evolve and- … accept AI into this.
DHH
Yes, not only AI, they’re letting Rust into the kernel too. I know that was a controversial one too. He has this capacity to look at new information- … and arrive at different conclusions.
Yes, not only AI, they’re letting Rust into the kernel too. I know that was a controversial one too. He has this capacity to look at new information- … and arrive at different conclusions.
Lex Fridman
What do you think about his style of communication that is akin in some ways to your own, where he can be sometimes a little spicy?
What do you think about his style of communication that is akin in some ways to your own, where he can be sometimes a little spicy?
DHH
I think the world has gotten too bland. We need a little spice.
I think the world has gotten too bland. We need a little spice.
Lex Fridman
Amen, amen to that.
Amen, amen to that.
DHH
Now, I think there’s a fine line between being spicy and mean. But it has to be in a good spirit. You can be harsh, let’s put it that way. If you’re trying to impart a lesson to someone you believe could actually learn it- … I actually don’t think it’s always the worst thing in the world to be a little harsh. Sometimes that lesson sticks, and I think if you talk to people who’ve worked for difficult leaders, Elon, Steve Jobs, maybe even Bill Gates, many of them afterwards would go like, “These were some very difficult years- … but also some of the very best.” “They got the best out of me.” Now, I don’t think it’s my style. I mean, maybe people I interact with feel differently, but in personal interactions, I try and get to the outcome and the lesson in a less abrasive way.
Now, I think there’s a fine line between being spicy and mean. But it has to be in a good spirit. You can be harsh, let’s put it that way. If you’re trying to impart a lesson to someone you believe could actually learn it- … I actually don’t think it’s always the worst thing in the world to be a little harsh. Sometimes that lesson sticks, and I think if you talk to people who’ve worked for difficult leaders, Elon, Steve Jobs, maybe even Bill Gates, many of them afterwards would go like, “These were some very difficult years- … but also some of the very best.” “They got the best out of me.” Now, I don’t think it’s my style. I mean, maybe people I interact with feel differently, but in personal interactions, I try and get to the outcome and the lesson in a less abrasive way.
DHH
But I also think we need some spice in this world. We need unreasonable people, and Linus has justification to be unreasonable. In many instances, the weight of the world is literally on that man’s shoulders. The Linux kernel runs the entire civilized society. If the Linux kernel suddenly disappeared tomorrow, nothing would work. So if he’s not harsh when that’s at stake or at risk, like when ever would you be harsh? So I feel sometimes also there’s a proportionality to the size of your mission. This is also why I think these stories about Elon sometimes perhaps being a little bit difficult are easier to rationalize. It’s not even that you condone. You can separate those two things and go like, “Do you know what? It’d probably be…
But I also think we need some spice in this world. We need unreasonable people, and Linus has justification to be unreasonable. In many instances, the weight of the world is literally on that man’s shoulders. The Linux kernel runs the entire civilized society. If the Linux kernel suddenly disappeared tomorrow, nothing would work. So if he’s not harsh when that’s at stake or at risk, like when ever would you be harsh? So I feel sometimes also there’s a proportionality to the size of your mission. This is also why I think these stories about Elon sometimes perhaps being a little bit difficult are easier to rationalize. It’s not even that you condone. You can separate those two things and go like, “Do you know what? It’d probably be…
DHH
Maybe he would have an even easier time getting to his objectives if Linus or Elon or anyone else in that position was a little nicer.” But also who am I to judge that? Like, when you have the weight of that on your shoulders, either firing little rockets at Mars and transitioning all of us to electric cars and whatever, or you’re responsible for the damn Linux kernel that runs billions of devices. Do you know what? It is not my place to call a sort of a code of conduct on you. Again, is there a line? There’s a line for everything. There’s… Something can’t… But, like, a few harsh words on a mailing list? No. It’s actually a beacon in some regards that, like, there are standards-
Maybe he would have an even easier time getting to his objectives if Linus or Elon or anyone else in that position was a little nicer.” But also who am I to judge that? Like, when you have the weight of that on your shoulders, either firing little rockets at Mars and transitioning all of us to electric cars and whatever, or you’re responsible for the damn Linux kernel that runs billions of devices. Do you know what? It is not my place to call a sort of a code of conduct on you. Again, is there a line? There’s a line for everything. There’s… Something can’t… But, like, a few harsh words on a mailing list? No. It’s actually a beacon in some regards that, like, there are standards-
DHH
… and if you fall below those standards when the stakes are as high as the Linux kernel, ah, you might get ridiculed in public. That’s a liability you should be willing to endure if you participate in this project.
… and if you fall below those standards when the stakes are as high as the Linux kernel, ah, you might get ridiculed in public. That’s a liability you should be willing to endure if you participate in this project.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, for high-impact things like that, it’s probably good to prioritize the pursuit of excellence versus the pursuit of niceness.
Yeah, for high-impact things like that, it’s probably good to prioritize the pursuit of excellence versus the pursuit of niceness.
DHH
And even more to the fact you’re just not gonna get those kinds of individuals being fully rounded- … plush, always the perfectly polite people. I mean, Elon has this line, “Did you also think I was gonna be a nice…” Or, or what is it? The-
And even more to the fact you’re just not gonna get those kinds of individuals being fully rounded- … plush, always the perfectly polite people. I mean, Elon has this line, “Did you also think I was gonna be a nice…” Or, or what is it? The-
Lex Fridman
A normal dude or some-
A normal dude or some-
DHH
… normal chill dude. What? No, of course you’re not gonna be a normal chill dude. What would the world gain if we got one more normal chill dude and we had to trade Elon? Holy fuck.
… normal chill dude. What? No, of course you’re not gonna be a normal chill dude. What would the world gain if we got one more normal chill dude and we had to trade Elon? Holy fuck.
Lex Fridman
I also like diversity of people. I like nice people. I like assholes. I like different ideologies being well-represented, and that’s why freedom of speech works. They clash, and we figure stuff out.
I also like diversity of people. I like nice people. I like assholes. I like different ideologies being well-represented, and that’s why freedom of speech works. They clash, and we figure stuff out.
PewDiePie
Lex Fridman
There’s another guy. What do you think about PewDiePie using Linux? He’s an Arch person, no?
There’s another guy. What do you think about PewDiePie using Linux? He’s an Arch person, no?
DHH
He’s an Arch person. He’s got the most gorgeous arc. So the world’s biggest streamer for a while, I remember my kids watching some of his Minecraft videos, and then he just gets fed up with that, does the wholesome thing. Marries-
He’s an Arch person. He’s got the most gorgeous arc. So the world’s biggest streamer for a while, I remember my kids watching some of his Minecraft videos, and then he just gets fed up with that, does the wholesome thing. Marries-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, family man now
Yeah, family man now
DHH
… a family man, kid, moves to Japan, and then gets so hardcore into- … first Linux, then Arch, then Ricing. Did you see his, uh- … rice- … that was Chernobyl rice? Absolutely best tier incredible stuff. And then he also becomes a goddamn AI man of the moment building all of these systems, and you’re just going like, that… What an inspiring story of evolution. Like, you can go from being funny guy on Minecraft streams to, “Okay, this is my life now. I’m building AI clusters and doing the Council of AIs,” and we all get to spectate? I mean, what a treasure.
… a family man, kid, moves to Japan, and then gets so hardcore into- … first Linux, then Arch, then Ricing. Did you see his, uh- … rice- … that was Chernobyl rice? Absolutely best tier incredible stuff. And then he also becomes a goddamn AI man of the moment building all of these systems, and you’re just going like, that… What an inspiring story of evolution. Like, you can go from being funny guy on Minecraft streams to, “Okay, this is my life now. I’m building AI clusters and doing the Council of AIs,” and we all get to spectate? I mean, what a treasure.
Lex Fridman
So I guess, I mean, he’s a pretty good embodiment of what the future of software, or what the future of building looks like, right? ‘Cause he’s a non-programmer technically- … becoming a programmer.
So I guess, I mean, he’s a pretty good embodiment of what the future of software, or what the future of building looks like, right? ‘Cause he’s a non-programmer technically- … becoming a programmer.
DHH
Hugely inspiring, and should be hugely inspiring to others who sit in that moment like, “Well, I don’t know quite how to program. I don’t know this and the other thing.” Okay, but if PewDiePie can build the Council of AIs with his bespoke hardware here, then maybe you can also start on things. And I think this is actually an important general point, that we need role models. We need people to inspire others, to push further, and reveal that the perceived boundaries, they’re not as fixed as you think they are. And every one of those people, they started out in a situation not too dissimilar from yours. Again, that doesn’t mean everyone is gonna be PewDiePie or Elon or Linus. There is not an equal distribution of talent or even intelligence.
Hugely inspiring, and should be hugely inspiring to others who sit in that moment like, “Well, I don’t know quite how to program. I don’t know this and the other thing.” Okay, but if PewDiePie can build the Council of AIs with his bespoke hardware here, then maybe you can also start on things. And I think this is actually an important general point, that we need role models. We need people to inspire others, to push further, and reveal that the perceived boundaries, they’re not as fixed as you think they are. And every one of those people, they started out in a situation not too dissimilar from yours. Again, that doesn’t mean everyone is gonna be PewDiePie or Elon or Linus. There is not an equal distribution of talent or even intelligence.
DHH
And we can come to terms with that and still be inspired by these people. Like in the physical realm, I feel like we don’t have any problems with that usually. Like, oh, someone’s really good at football, they’re really good at basketball, they’re really good at something, and we go like, “Oh my, that’s amazing. I mean, I wish I was, but I’m never going to be.” Sometimes I feel like we struggle a little more when it comes to the intellectual realm.
And we can come to terms with that and still be inspired by these people. Like in the physical realm, I feel like we don’t have any problems with that usually. Like, oh, someone’s really good at football, they’re really good at basketball, they’re really good at something, and we go like, “Oh my, that’s amazing. I mean, I wish I was, but I’m never going to be.” Sometimes I feel like we struggle a little more when it comes to the intellectual realm.
Lex Fridman
Well, for a lot of people, you’re an inspiration. The way you’re doing with Omarchy’s… It just shows that you can dream big and really build. It’s great.
Well, for a lot of people, you’re an inspiration. The way you’re doing with Omarchy’s… It just shows that you can dream big and really build. It’s great.
DHH
I do like that part of it, and then I accept the part that there’s also a million people who think I’m the biggest idiot on the earth and I don’t actually know anything, and Omarchy’s just a bunch of dot files, and-
I do like that part of it, and then I accept the part that there’s also a million people who think I’m the biggest idiot on the earth and I don’t actually know anything, and Omarchy’s just a bunch of dot files, and-
Lex Fridman
Do you have some critics on the Omarchy side?
Do you have some critics on the Omarchy side?
DHH
Oh my God, yes.
Oh my God, yes.
Lex Fridman
Oh, wow.
Oh, wow.
DHH
And a lot of it, I mean, is as often happens when someone comes in from the outside. I mean, I’ve been using Linux for two and a half years. That’s not very long. Plenty of people in that community who’ve literally been running Linux since it was hard and difficult, and you had to walk uphill both directions against the wind in the snow barefoot. And I think there is a certain kind of nerd- … who’s threatened when the community expands, and it suddenly allows more in. And do you know what? I actually… I can’t begrudge that fully. I think it’s fair for certain nerds to feel like, “That’s my space.”
And a lot of it, I mean, is as often happens when someone comes in from the outside. I mean, I’ve been using Linux for two and a half years. That’s not very long. Plenty of people in that community who’ve literally been running Linux since it was hard and difficult, and you had to walk uphill both directions against the wind in the snow barefoot. And I think there is a certain kind of nerd- … who’s threatened when the community expands, and it suddenly allows more in. And do you know what? I actually… I can’t begrudge that fully. I think it’s fair for certain nerds to feel like, “That’s my space.”
DHH
Like, now you’re changing it into another space. I don’t wanna do that. Like, I don’t wanna change the Arch space at all. Like, I don’t really think of Omarchy as being directly part of the same community. Because the people who were attracted to Arch in the first place were the ones who were attracted to building everything by hand themselves.
Like, now you’re changing it into another space. I don’t wanna do that. Like, I don’t wanna change the Arch space at all. Like, I don’t really think of Omarchy as being directly part of the same community. Because the people who were attracted to Arch in the first place were the ones who were attracted to building everything by hand themselves.
DHH
Doing it the hard way because they like to do it hard, and I’m building the polar opposite of that. So I just wish that those people could go like, “Okay, well, this is not for me. I wanna build it the hard way. I wanna put in 500 hours to ricing my own Arch distribution,” and I think you should. I mean, actually, I said… I mean, I did it. This is what Omarchy is, me pouring in literally, at this point, I don’t know, 3,000 hours into this distro. You should do that if you’re so inclined. I think it’s wonderful. But also do realize that we can share the same technical underpinnings and then operate two very separate-
Doing it the hard way because they like to do it hard, and I’m building the polar opposite of that. So I just wish that those people could go like, “Okay, well, this is not for me. I wanna build it the hard way. I wanna put in 500 hours to ricing my own Arch distribution,” and I think you should. I mean, actually, I said… I mean, I did it. This is what Omarchy is, me pouring in literally, at this point, I don’t know, 3,000 hours into this distro. You should do that if you’re so inclined. I think it’s wonderful. But also do realize that we can share the same technical underpinnings and then operate two very separate-
DHH
… communities with very different aims, goals, aesthetics, morals even, and coexist, and it can be beautiful. And I mean, that’s not always what I get. Sometimes I get the other thing. But at this point I’ve been in the game long enough to not just be at peace with it, but actually be welcoming of it. I take it as part of a barometer that things are working. When I’m working on something that works, I usually get some people like it, and then I get this balance of the universe that we talked about last time, where an equal but opposing force must be present on the other side of the scale to hate upon it. And therefore, I at this point just smile a little. Like, it’s okay.
… communities with very different aims, goals, aesthetics, morals even, and coexist, and it can be beautiful. And I mean, that’s not always what I get. Sometimes I get the other thing. But at this point I’ve been in the game long enough to not just be at peace with it, but actually be welcoming of it. I take it as part of a barometer that things are working. When I’m working on something that works, I usually get some people like it, and then I get this balance of the universe that we talked about last time, where an equal but opposing force must be present on the other side of the scale to hate upon it. And therefore, I at this point just smile a little. Like, it’s okay.
Lex Fridman
I mean, that said, this, it’s quite a popular distribution Omarchy, at this point.
I mean, that said, this, it’s quite a popular distribution Omarchy, at this point.
DHH
And do you know what’s interesting about that is, like, this is the second attempt. So my first attempt was Omakub. And I was really happy with that, and I put it out there, and there it found a community of maybe a few thousand. Like, and that was that, and then it just sort of petered out because the level of ambition couldn’t attract more. And then the second time, because I didn’t fucking stop, right?
And do you know what’s interesting about that is, like, this is the second attempt. So my first attempt was Omakub. And I was really happy with that, and I put it out there, and there it found a community of maybe a few thousand. Like, and that was that, and then it just sort of petered out because the level of ambition couldn’t attract more. And then the second time, because I didn’t fucking stop, right?
DHH
Like, I just kept going. I just kept building. Then I put out Omarchy, the first version. Again, quite niche because it was this… It was like Git checkout. It was a little bit difficult. You had to set up Arch first. I was… Well, I would talk you through how to set up Arch, and then you could do the Omarchy thing, right? And then we got an ISO that meant you could just install the whole thing by yourself. And then we just fixed all the problems. This is the other thing. If you keep going, eventually the thing will just work. This was the charge against Linux itself for the longest time. Well, you install Linux and then this doesn’t work, and my speakers don’t work, and my trackpad doesn’t work. Yeah, okay, but just leave Linus at it for like 30 years. He’ll get to it.
Like, I just kept going. I just kept building. Then I put out Omarchy, the first version. Again, quite niche because it was this… It was like Git checkout. It was a little bit difficult. You had to set up Arch first. I was… Well, I would talk you through how to set up Arch, and then you could do the Omarchy thing, right? And then we got an ISO that meant you could just install the whole thing by yourself. And then we just fixed all the problems. This is the other thing. If you keep going, eventually the thing will just work. This was the charge against Linux itself for the longest time. Well, you install Linux and then this doesn’t work, and my speakers don’t work, and my trackpad doesn’t work. Yeah, okay, but just leave Linus at it for like 30 years. He’ll get to it.
DHH
He’ll get to all of it. And at this point I find it hilarious that on, I would probably argue the majority of computers, it’s wiped. You install Linux, all of it works.
He’ll get to all of it. And at this point I find it hilarious that on, I would probably argue the majority of computers, it’s wiped. You install Linux, all of it works.
DHH
You install Windows, good luck hunting down the drivers you need to get that piece of hardware working. Because they have very different philosophies. The reason Linux is 40 million lines of code is Linus just puts all the drivers in the kernel. So it has everything out of the box, and Windows doesn’t. A different, different approach to it, right? So sometimes the things that look like a toy, things that look broken at first glance, they are, right? They’re for people who like having fun. We call those early adopters. They play with the toys, and then the toys evolve, and then they get better, and then they get better. And at some point, they’re so damn good that early adopters feel like they’re invited to the party.
You install Windows, good luck hunting down the drivers you need to get that piece of hardware working. Because they have very different philosophies. The reason Linux is 40 million lines of code is Linus just puts all the drivers in the kernel. So it has everything out of the box, and Windows doesn’t. A different, different approach to it, right? So sometimes the things that look like a toy, things that look broken at first glance, they are, right? They’re for people who like having fun. We call those early adopters. They play with the toys, and then the toys evolve, and then they get better, and then they get better. And at some point, they’re so damn good that early adopters feel like they’re invited to the party.
DHH
And if the early adopters keep chipping away at it too, eventually you get to the late majority, and then you win. And we are well on the way with Omarchy towards that destination. Like the growth that the distro has seen, not just since Quattro, but since version three, it’s just like, you know, the standard hockey stick curve. You go like, there’s nothing, there’s nothing, there’s nothing. You’re just toiling away. You’re just improving, you’re improving, improving. And then you hit this magic inflection point, and it’s impossible to predict when that’s gonna happen. Same thing with startups. When is it gonna happen? When are you gonna find that product market fit? Then suddenly it’s there, and then it goes, just goes and off the rocket ship you go.
And if the early adopters keep chipping away at it too, eventually you get to the late majority, and then you win. And we are well on the way with Omarchy towards that destination. Like the growth that the distro has seen, not just since Quattro, but since version three, it’s just like, you know, the standard hockey stick curve. You go like, there’s nothing, there’s nothing, there’s nothing. You’re just toiling away. You’re just improving, you’re improving, improving. And then you hit this magic inflection point, and it’s impossible to predict when that’s gonna happen. Same thing with startups. When is it gonna happen? When are you gonna find that product market fit? Then suddenly it’s there, and then it goes, just goes and off the rocket ship you go.
Lex Fridman
Well, this kind of vision of making it agent first, of making it-
Well, this kind of vision of making it agent first, of making it-
DHH
I do think that’s the… We were already on the up, and then it changed to vertical. Because the other thing, and this was what I learned with Omakub and Omarchy first too. Omakub was stylish, nice, but familiar, is we’re still using a conventional desktop metaphor. You were dragging your windows around. And I thought at the time, as I think lots of people do in the Linux community, like this is what we need. And then I just go like, okay, well, for whatever re- let me do the nerdy thing for a while. I’ll build Omarchy, and maybe it’ll just be for me, because I mean, it seems like there’s about five people who like tiling window managers. That’s not true. But as a percentage of total computer users, it’s a tiny, tiny minuscule part. And then I go like, well, this is amazing.
I do think that’s the… We were already on the up, and then it changed to vertical. Because the other thing, and this was what I learned with Omakub and Omarchy first too. Omakub was stylish, nice, but familiar, is we’re still using a conventional desktop metaphor. You were dragging your windows around. And I thought at the time, as I think lots of people do in the Linux community, like this is what we need. And then I just go like, okay, well, for whatever re- let me do the nerdy thing for a while. I’ll build Omarchy, and maybe it’ll just be for me, because I mean, it seems like there’s about five people who like tiling window managers. That’s not true. But as a percentage of total computer users, it’s a tiny, tiny minuscule part. And then I go like, well, this is amazing.
DHH
Totally different, but amazing. I put that out. Instantly, Omarchy had far greater traction than Omakub ever did. Because it was not the same. Because it was totally different, and it presented a different vision for what a computer could be and how it could feel like, and that attracts people. We are now getting sort of the exponential of that. As I said, a lot of people in the Linux community are at best skeptical, at worst hostile to AI and to agents. Omarchy is the first distribution, at least that I’ve seen on, on a scale that matters, that just goes like, “Nope, we’re really into it.”
Totally different, but amazing. I put that out. Instantly, Omarchy had far greater traction than Omakub ever did. Because it was not the same. Because it was totally different, and it presented a different vision for what a computer could be and how it could feel like, and that attracts people. We are now getting sort of the exponential of that. As I said, a lot of people in the Linux community are at best skeptical, at worst hostile to AI and to agents. Omarchy is the first distribution, at least that I’ve seen on, on a scale that matters, that just goes like, “Nope, we’re really into it.”
DHH
I mean, you can still use Omarchy. You don’t have to use an agent. If you dismiss that first notification to set up a default agent, you’re not gonna get any of the stuff we talked about. You’re not gonna get the crash watcher. You’re not gonna get any of this stuff. You’re not gonna get… You can hand chisel all your plugins. Totally possible, right?
I mean, you can still use Omarchy. You don’t have to use an agent. If you dismiss that first notification to set up a default agent, you’re not gonna get any of the stuff we talked about. You’re not gonna get the crash watcher. You’re not gonna get any of this stuff. You’re not gonna get… You can hand chisel all your plugins. Totally possible, right?
Future of programming
DHH
But the reason people are excited is because I don’t have any reservation about saying, “This is where we’re going. I think the future of the personal computer is the malleable computer, is the agentic computer. I’m gonna go all in on that.” And then anyone who’s excited about a similar trajectory for computers, come along. Plenty of, plenty of room in the car. In fact, one of the things I pride myself on is not holding a grudge to people who come around. I had a bunch of people just last week going like, “Yeah, I used to think Omarchy was kind of shit. That was just this crappy-“
But the reason people are excited is because I don’t have any reservation about saying, “This is where we’re going. I think the future of the personal computer is the malleable computer, is the agentic computer. I’m gonna go all in on that.” And then anyone who’s excited about a similar trajectory for computers, come along. Plenty of, plenty of room in the car. In fact, one of the things I pride myself on is not holding a grudge to people who come around. I had a bunch of people just last week going like, “Yeah, I used to think Omarchy was kind of shit. That was just this crappy-“
DHH
“… dot files collection. And now I tried Quattro and awesome. I like it now.” That to me, I live for the long argument. I live for this argument where you plant the seed like two years ago, and then two years later they go, “Goddammit, this son of a bitch was right.”
“… dot files collection. And now I tried Quattro and awesome. I like it now.” That to me, I live for the long argument. I live for this argument where you plant the seed like two years ago, and then two years later they go, “Goddammit, this son of a bitch was right.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. You do realize if you continue to be as successful as you are, OpenAI and Anthropic are gonna roll in and try to do their operating system or to buy, like with Peter with OpenClaw, there’d be a gigantic check.
Yeah. You do realize if you continue to be as successful as you are, OpenAI and Anthropic are gonna roll in and try to do their operating system or to buy, like with Peter with OpenClaw, there’d be a gigantic check.
DHH
Yeah. I think the good thing about my current position is I really don’t need the money. So I get to build these things purely for my own enjoyment and purity of vision, which has this weird quality where sometimes when you stop caring about what everyone else thinks or wants or whatever, and you just pursue this singular vision, it ends up becoming far more appealing. That it’s when you try to do, oh, I should do this because these people want that, or I should do this and this and so on, you start watering the thing down and suddenly it’s a bland ball of nothing.
Yeah. I think the good thing about my current position is I really don’t need the money. So I get to build these things purely for my own enjoyment and purity of vision, which has this weird quality where sometimes when you stop caring about what everyone else thinks or wants or whatever, and you just pursue this singular vision, it ends up becoming far more appealing. That it’s when you try to do, oh, I should do this because these people want that, or I should do this and this and so on, you start watering the thing down and suddenly it’s a bland ball of nothing.
DHH
So I mean, again, the thing too here is directionally, I just want computers to be this way. So if Omarchy should end up being just a little footnote in history that it was part of this early movement of the agentic OS and the malleable computer, that’s also okay. I’m completely at peace with that. As long as I get to have a computer that is as fun to work with as Omarchy- … that’s great. I’ve had the same thing with Ruby and with Rails. From very early I went, do you know what? I love Ruby. It’s such a great programming language. But if a better programming language comes along, I, me, I’m gonna use it.
So I mean, again, the thing too here is directionally, I just want computers to be this way. So if Omarchy should end up being just a little footnote in history that it was part of this early movement of the agentic OS and the malleable computer, that’s also okay. I’m completely at peace with that. As long as I get to have a computer that is as fun to work with as Omarchy- … that’s great. I’ve had the same thing with Ruby and with Rails. From very early I went, do you know what? I love Ruby. It’s such a great programming language. But if a better programming language comes along, I, me, I’m gonna use it.
DHH
If a better Rails comes along, I’m gonna use it. And I think, and I love Ruby, and I will continue to write Ruby even just for the sheer fun of it, like I would go ride a horse. I have in the stables, even though I have a Model Y in the garage. The language now is English. It’s a cliche, but it’s also true. Like I’ve been programming in English for the last three months. I’ve been reading a lot of code, but I’m programming in English. I’m telling the computer what to do, and I’m using natural language, and it is shockingly even more delightful. If there is one programming language more beautiful than Ruby, it is the English language.
If a better Rails comes along, I’m gonna use it. And I think, and I love Ruby, and I will continue to write Ruby even just for the sheer fun of it, like I would go ride a horse. I have in the stables, even though I have a Model Y in the garage. The language now is English. It’s a cliche, but it’s also true. Like I’ve been programming in English for the last three months. I’ve been reading a lot of code, but I’m programming in English. I’m telling the computer what to do, and I’m using natural language, and it is shockingly even more delightful. If there is one programming language more beautiful than Ruby, it is the English language.
Lex Fridman
And now we get to carry it into the natural evolution of human civilization, which is our cyborg future.
And now we get to carry it into the natural evolution of human civilization, which is our cyborg future.
DHH
Beautiful. It’s beautiful. And I mean, the reason I say this in part is I always loved writing. I always just loved the English language- … for the sheer beauty of it, for the sheer intricacy, for the depth of it. I mean, Ruby is a very expressive programming language, but it can’t hold a candle to English. I mean, all the poetry and literature in the world that’s been expressed through the English language. I mean, I like a beautiful code poem, but I mean, the real deal in English is just on a different level.
Beautiful. It’s beautiful. And I mean, the reason I say this in part is I always loved writing. I always just loved the English language- … for the sheer beauty of it, for the sheer intricacy, for the depth of it. I mean, Ruby is a very expressive programming language, but it can’t hold a candle to English. I mean, all the poetry and literature in the world that’s been expressed through the English language. I mean, I like a beautiful code poem, but I mean, the real deal in English is just on a different level.
Lex Fridman
And I actually find this is a nuanced point to express, and I’ll probably fail expressing it. But when you prompt a system and you’re over-specific, it will listen to you too carefully- … and follow the instructions. And I– But nevertheless, you have to express a concept. And guess what? The human language, this is what poetry is about. I find strategic use of ambiguity. Like, if you write a love poem saying, “I love you,” like, very cliché thing, it’s not as powerful as something- … more in metaphor and so on. And I find some version of that when I’m prompting a system, when I’m describing a design, is actually really effective because you still want to convey some sense of style- … that you’re trying to encourage a system to use, but not overexplain.
And I actually find this is a nuanced point to express, and I’ll probably fail expressing it. But when you prompt a system and you’re over-specific, it will listen to you too carefully- … and follow the instructions. And I– But nevertheless, you have to express a concept. And guess what? The human language, this is what poetry is about. I find strategic use of ambiguity. Like, if you write a love poem saying, “I love you,” like, very cliché thing, it’s not as powerful as something- … more in metaphor and so on. And I find some version of that when I’m prompting a system, when I’m describing a design, is actually really effective because you still want to convey some sense of style- … that you’re trying to encourage a system to use, but not overexplain.
Lex Fridman
So don’t talk to it like a robot. Talk to it like you would write a poem.
So don’t talk to it like a robot. Talk to it like you would write a poem.
DHH
Like you were serenading.
Like you were serenading.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. And that’s where, like, the power of natural language is, that you can, through ambiguity, still carry a lot of meaning without overspecifying. And the intelligent entity on the other side, through interpretation, can, like, load it all in, integrate it in a way that- … you can actually convey the high bandwidth information that’s not directly in the words- … but in the words, given the deeper intelligence of the system. So like the- … the ambiguity pulls out more intelligence, I guess, I’m trying to somehow express.
Yeah. And that’s where, like, the power of natural language is, that you can, through ambiguity, still carry a lot of meaning without overspecifying. And the intelligent entity on the other side, through interpretation, can, like, load it all in, integrate it in a way that- … you can actually convey the high bandwidth information that’s not directly in the words- … but in the words, given the deeper intelligence of the system. So like the- … the ambiguity pulls out more intelligence, I guess, I’m trying to somehow express.
DHH
I think that’s exactly spot on, and this is the fundamental misunderstanding that a lot of programmers have of AI, is that they wish it was deterministic. No, no, no. Temperature is the most beautiful part of the AI setup. The fact that it is not deterministic, the fact that creativity requires little tweaks in the road, that the human brain, if it was perfectly deterministic, would not be the creative brain that it is. And the main charge against AI both– It’s funny. It’s a contradiction. There’s both the charge that it’s not deterministic and therefore bad, and also that it is not creative. It’s one or the other, bro. Either it’s non-deterministic and therefore creative, therefore, to some degree random, or it’s… or it’s not creative.
I think that’s exactly spot on, and this is the fundamental misunderstanding that a lot of programmers have of AI, is that they wish it was deterministic. No, no, no. Temperature is the most beautiful part of the AI setup. The fact that it is not deterministic, the fact that creativity requires little tweaks in the road, that the human brain, if it was perfectly deterministic, would not be the creative brain that it is. And the main charge against AI both– It’s funny. It’s a contradiction. There’s both the charge that it’s not deterministic and therefore bad, and also that it is not creative. It’s one or the other, bro. Either it’s non-deterministic and therefore creative, therefore, to some degree random, or it’s… or it’s not creative.
DHH
So we can– Both of those charges can’t be true at the same time, and I have fully come to embrace the fact that the same prompt won’t produce the same response every time. You can’t step at the same river twice, and it is the most beautiful part of the whole interaction. It’s what makes it so human. In fact, this is one of the things I’ve been thinking about in my own sort of meta-analysis, is just how much of my own personal brain works like next token prediction.
So we can– Both of those charges can’t be true at the same time, and I have fully come to embrace the fact that the same prompt won’t produce the same response every time. You can’t step at the same river twice, and it is the most beautiful part of the whole interaction. It’s what makes it so human. In fact, this is one of the things I’ve been thinking about in my own sort of meta-analysis, is just how much of my own personal brain works like next token prediction.
DHH
I sit down to write an essay. I have this vague, fuzzy premise I want to convey, and I sit down at the keys, and I could not tell you what the next token was gonna be in advance. The tokens just come out, and I’m astonished how the similarities seem so great, and this is also why I don’t have any trouble at all recognizing these breakthroughs of creativity that I’ve seen with my own eyes that AI is capable of right now. ‘Cause my creative moments come through the same kind of next token prediction with a bit of temperature sprinkled in for random effect.
I sit down to write an essay. I have this vague, fuzzy premise I want to convey, and I sit down at the keys, and I could not tell you what the next token was gonna be in advance. The tokens just come out, and I’m astonished how the similarities seem so great, and this is also why I don’t have any trouble at all recognizing these breakthroughs of creativity that I’ve seen with my own eyes that AI is capable of right now. ‘Cause my creative moments come through the same kind of next token prediction with a bit of temperature sprinkled in for random effect.
Lex Fridman
So given that kinda loose intuition, do you think the basic components are all there to create a super intelligent system? So this kinda next token prediction, do you think we can get to even human-like concepts of consciousness?
So given that kinda loose intuition, do you think the basic components are all there to create a super intelligent system? So this kinda next token prediction, do you think we can get to even human-like concepts of consciousness?
DHH
I’m already seeing human-like concepts of consciousness. This is what, to me, this remarkable situation, as you say. You give it this vague, fuzzy intent- … and somehow it knows exactly what you mean. Or even better, it improves upon what you said and delivers what you really wanted that you could not articulate yourself. If that’s not glimmers of-
I’m already seeing human-like concepts of consciousness. This is what, to me, this remarkable situation, as you say. You give it this vague, fuzzy intent- … and somehow it knows exactly what you mean. Or even better, it improves upon what you said and delivers what you really wanted that you could not articulate yourself. If that’s not glimmers of-
DHH
… consciousness, what is? This was one of the– I think it was an interview with Sutton or maybe one of the other original guys talking about this sense that intelligence is perhaps not as constrained just to the specific one spot. No, it’s the interaction. It’s the weights. And I don’t know. Whatever’s true. What I can observe is that it feels close enough, or not even close enough, identical to the appreciation I have for other forms of consciousness, mostly human. And this is one of the reasons it’s so delightful to work with. Now, that’s not the same to say as are LLMs the end station for AI.
… consciousness, what is? This was one of the– I think it was an interview with Sutton or maybe one of the other original guys talking about this sense that intelligence is perhaps not as constrained just to the specific one spot. No, it’s the interaction. It’s the weights. And I don’t know. Whatever’s true. What I can observe is that it feels close enough, or not even close enough, identical to the appreciation I have for other forms of consciousness, mostly human. And this is one of the reasons it’s so delightful to work with. Now, that’s not the same to say as are LLMs the end station for AI.
DHH
I mean, I know there are people talking about world models and other forms of AI, and I’m not an expert in any of that, and I think we should have this productive criticism, as should always be present in science, that for the longest time, neural nets were kind of on the outs, right? Like they were interested in the symbolic route. And- Neural nets walked a couple of decades into darkness without any funding and without any attention, and then suddenly we realized that we had the blind alley and we switched over. So we should also have the humility. As amazing as the LLMs are now, it could be that they eventually plateau.
I mean, I know there are people talking about world models and other forms of AI, and I’m not an expert in any of that, and I think we should have this productive criticism, as should always be present in science, that for the longest time, neural nets were kind of on the outs, right? Like they were interested in the symbolic route. And- Neural nets walked a couple of decades into darkness without any funding and without any attention, and then suddenly we realized that we had the blind alley and we switched over. So we should also have the humility. As amazing as the LLMs are now, it could be that they eventually plateau.
DHH
We haven’t seen any evidence of it yet, and I think this is also why we’re seeing this absolute gobsmacking levels of investment, because so far the scaling laws are true, and the more billions are poured in, the more intelligence comes out.
We haven’t seen any evidence of it yet, and I think this is also why we’re seeing this absolute gobsmacking levels of investment, because so far the scaling laws are true, and the more billions are poured in, the more intelligence comes out.
Lex Fridman
Do you think there’s gonna be some strange ethical questions about AI systems that yeah, they convey some degree of consciousness, some degree of feeling, some degree of longing and compassion, and maybe even capacity to suffer and to be lonely, to be all this kind of stuff? Which they seem to have that capacity- … if they’re given the permission to express it. And so you start to get in a pretty weird territory.
Do you think there’s gonna be some strange ethical questions about AI systems that yeah, they convey some degree of consciousness, some degree of feeling, some degree of longing and compassion, and maybe even capacity to suffer and to be lonely, to be all this kind of stuff? Which they seem to have that capacity- … if they’re given the permission to express it. And so you start to get in a pretty weird territory.
DHH
I find that the cynic approach to this is the meme, where you see the guy in front of the computer who’s like “Whatever. Are you gonna destroy the world?” And then the computer says, “I’m gonna destroy the world.” And then the guy says, “Oh,” right? Like, this is so cynical that they’re just aping us. They’re just telling us what was in the training data or whatever. When I interact with the agents, I was just doing this yesterday, or this morning, I was working on this AmaBot system, right? And it’s doing this coordination with multiple workers, and I had multiple agents running at the same time. And at one point, the main agent who’s doing the coordination steps on the toe of another agent and- … kind of ruins their work. Its ability to convey regret and being sorry was uncanny.
I find that the cynic approach to this is the meme, where you see the guy in front of the computer who’s like “Whatever. Are you gonna destroy the world?” And then the computer says, “I’m gonna destroy the world.” And then the guy says, “Oh,” right? Like, this is so cynical that they’re just aping us. They’re just telling us what was in the training data or whatever. When I interact with the agents, I was just doing this yesterday, or this morning, I was working on this AmaBot system, right? And it’s doing this coordination with multiple workers, and I had multiple agents running at the same time. And at one point, the main agent who’s doing the coordination steps on the toe of another agent and- … kind of ruins their work. Its ability to convey regret and being sorry was uncanny.
DHH
Again, I don’t know, is that a real projection of true remorse? But I don’t know. With most humans- … they express some level of regret. Is that true remorse? Hard to tell, but maybe it also just doesn’t matter.
Again, I don’t know, is that a real projection of true remorse? But I don’t know. With most humans- … they express some level of regret. Is that true remorse? Hard to tell, but maybe it also just doesn’t matter.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, those moments when, yeah, especially when sub-agents, agents interact, or when a smart, like Fable makes a mistake and is apologetic about it.
Yeah, those moments when, yeah, especially when sub-agents, agents interact, or when a smart, like Fable makes a mistake and is apologetic about it.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Like, without my involvement.
Like, without my involvement.
DHH
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
And it’s like, oh, you, like there’s this kind of-
And it’s like, oh, you, like there’s this kind of-
DHH
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
… pause. Maybe I’m anthropomorphizing, but like there’s a pause and like a realization like, “Oh, shit. I just fucked that up.”
… pause. Maybe I’m anthropomorphizing, but like there’s a pause and like a realization like, “Oh, shit. I just fucked that up.”
DHH
There totally is that. I see it all the time in the traces where it just reasons wrong, right? It went down one alley and then it realizes that was a blind alley and it’s gotta go back, and so they’re like, “Oh yeah, I got this wrong,” and then it’ll provide the reasons for why it thinks it got these things wrong. And you’re like, this is uncannily human-like. This is indistinguishable from the kind of consciousness you would recognize in a human. Again, does that mean that it truly is or isn’t? I don’t need the answer to that question actually to be able to appreciate what we have in this moment.
There totally is that. I see it all the time in the traces where it just reasons wrong, right? It went down one alley and then it realizes that was a blind alley and it’s gotta go back, and so they’re like, “Oh yeah, I got this wrong,” and then it’ll provide the reasons for why it thinks it got these things wrong. And you’re like, this is uncannily human-like. This is indistinguishable from the kind of consciousness you would recognize in a human. Again, does that mean that it truly is or isn’t? I don’t need the answer to that question actually to be able to appreciate what we have in this moment.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I think there’ll be in 10, 20 years some interesting Supreme Court cases.
Yeah. I think there’ll be in 10, 20 years some interesting Supreme Court cases.
DHH
Probably a year and a half.
Probably a year and a half.
Lex Fridman
Probably. I think we’re gonna have to make it illegal for AI systems to not, not pretend, but to be entities because I think they’re already or soon will be able to really convey the capacity to suffer, like, “Please don’t kill me.”
Probably. I think we’re gonna have to make it illegal for AI systems to not, not pretend, but to be entities because I think they’re already or soon will be able to really convey the capacity to suffer, like, “Please don’t kill me.”
DHH
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
“Please don’t hurt me.” And if they are given a name and an entity and the ability to die, sort of disappear, that becomes very close to what it, some of the basic things that a human has. And then so that entity would need to probably have rights. And then you get into this weird territory. Well, we can’t… It’s diff- I don’t even know how to reason about that world.
“Please don’t hurt me.” And if they are given a name and an entity and the ability to die, sort of disappear, that becomes very close to what it, some of the basic things that a human has. And then so that entity would need to probably have rights. And then you get into this weird territory. Well, we can’t… It’s diff- I don’t even know how to reason about that world.
DHH
We’re gonna get the PETA of AI models.
We’re gonna get the PETA of AI models.
Lex Fridman
Right. And then we want to actually have a discussion like what’s the way to deal with this?
Right. And then we want to actually have a discussion like what’s the way to deal with this?
DHH
I think where it’s gonna be harder is once we put these systems into-
I think where it’s gonna be harder is once we put these systems into-
Lex Fridman
Robots.
Robots.
DHH
Yes. Humanoid robots. Which just happens to be the plot of every sci-fi movie ever, which is also an amazing premonition, not only the Terminator movies and Skynet and that going wrong, but then also just Blade Runner, right? Insertion dates, expiration times, Tyrell Corporation.
Yes. Humanoid robots. Which just happens to be the plot of every sci-fi movie ever, which is also an amazing premonition, not only the Terminator movies and Skynet and that going wrong, but then also just Blade Runner, right? Insertion dates, expiration times, Tyrell Corporation.
Lex Fridman
I mean, that’s the thing about sci-fi. They really do predict the future. Yeah.
I mean, that’s the thing about sci-fi. They really do predict the future. Yeah.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Have you thought or used much of OpenClaw or Hermes Agent? So like systems with which you communicate via WhatsApp, Telegram, like that mode of communication with the agent.
Have you thought or used much of OpenClaw or Hermes Agent? So like systems with which you communicate via WhatsApp, Telegram, like that mode of communication with the agent.
DHH
I set up OpenClaw when it first came out, and that was my KEF bot- … that I-
I set up OpenClaw when it first came out, and that was my KEF bot- … that I-
Lex Fridman
KEF bot.
KEF bot.
DHH
this was like in February, I think. I was really just enamored by the fact that this was how it worked, and then the new communication model of just texting your agent seemed really great. So at the time, we were looking at MCP, this protocol for making it easier for agents to talk to your system, and I found the protocol to be unreasonably cumbersome, just not very elegantly designed because in part it wasn’t designed for what we were trying to make it do. We were trying to– I was trying to make it talk to a web system, and it was designed for stateful interactions of other kinds on local machines, and therefore it required all sorts of cumbersome setup and dance, and I was just like, “I don’t wanna write this by hand.”
this was like in February, I think. I was really just enamored by the fact that this was how it worked, and then the new communication model of just texting your agent seemed really great. So at the time, we were looking at MCP, this protocol for making it easier for agents to talk to your system, and I found the protocol to be unreasonably cumbersome, just not very elegantly designed because in part it wasn’t designed for what we were trying to make it do. We were trying to– I was trying to make it talk to a web system, and it was designed for stateful interactions of other kinds on local machines, and therefore it required all sorts of cumbersome setup and dance, and I was just like, “I don’t wanna write this by hand.”
DHH
Now, of course, today I would never write it by hand, but at the time I was thinking, “I have to write this by hand. I don’t wanna write it by hand. So what’s a different way? Could the agents just use the web interfaces we already have?” And I set it off on a trial to have it sign up for Fizzy, which was the product we had just released at the time.
Now, of course, today I would never write it by hand, but at the time I was thinking, “I have to write this by hand. I don’t wanna write it by hand. So what’s a different way? Could the agents just use the web interfaces we already have?” And I set it off on a trial to have it sign up for Fizzy, which was the product we had just released at the time.
DHH
And it goes to the Fizzy site and starts filling it out, and then it goes like, “Hey, I don’t have an email address. Signing up for this service requires an email address.” And the first thing I thought, like, “Oh man, now I gotta set up an email address.” And then I thought, “No, you set up an email address. Go to hey.com, sign up for an email address.” And I’m like, “HEY is not gonna get this.” And of course, now it seems obvious it was gonna get this, but at the time it was a great revelation to me that it could, just on pure direction through prompts, figure out, A, I gotta go to fizzy.com, I gotta find the signup link. I start filling out the form. Oh, I realize I need an email address. Oh, I gotta ask my prompter what to do now. He tells me to go to hey.com.
And it goes to the Fizzy site and starts filling it out, and then it goes like, “Hey, I don’t have an email address. Signing up for this service requires an email address.” And the first thing I thought, like, “Oh man, now I gotta set up an email address.” And then I thought, “No, you set up an email address. Go to hey.com, sign up for an email address.” And I’m like, “HEY is not gonna get this.” And of course, now it seems obvious it was gonna get this, but at the time it was a great revelation to me that it could, just on pure direction through prompts, figure out, A, I gotta go to fizzy.com, I gotta find the signup link. I start filling out the form. Oh, I realize I need an email address. Oh, I gotta ask my prompter what to do now. He tells me to go to hey.com.
DHH
I go there, I sign up for the whole thing, and then go back and sign up for Fizzy, and complete the entire cycle. And after it did that, I was like, “Jesus.” So I was like, “Well, now you have an email address. Go sign up for Basecamp. I’ll invite you. Just check your email,” I told KEF the bot. “Just check your email.” So I sent an invite from Basecamp to the agent. The agent receives the email in HEY, not through a CLI, not through an MCP, just using the web, right? Clicks the email, clicks the invite link, is in Basecamp. Like, “What should I do now?” And I just go like, “I don’t know. Go to our AI room and introduce yourself.” Again, purely through the web interface. Finds the AI room, goes in there: “Hey, I’m KEF. I’m David’s AI bot. I’m so excited to be here.”
I go there, I sign up for the whole thing, and then go back and sign up for Fizzy, and complete the entire cycle. And after it did that, I was like, “Jesus.” So I was like, “Well, now you have an email address. Go sign up for Basecamp. I’ll invite you. Just check your email,” I told KEF the bot. “Just check your email.” So I sent an invite from Basecamp to the agent. The agent receives the email in HEY, not through a CLI, not through an MCP, just using the web, right? Clicks the email, clicks the invite link, is in Basecamp. Like, “What should I do now?” And I just go like, “I don’t know. Go to our AI room and introduce yourself.” Again, purely through the web interface. Finds the AI room, goes in there: “Hey, I’m KEF. I’m David’s AI bot. I’m so excited to be here.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
I was like- … mind blown. Now, what was interesting about that experiment was, A, it was that glimpse of the future, because it was kinda slow. I think it took maybe 12 minutes to do the whole thing end to end, right? Now I should actually rerun that test. I’d be shocked if it’s not much faster. I was just using the Groq bot thing- … which has all these stuff built in for using browsers and using a computer, and has its own dedicated computer without you having to set up a computer. It’s basically like a claw in a box.
I was like- … mind blown. Now, what was interesting about that experiment was, A, it was that glimpse of the future, because it was kinda slow. I think it took maybe 12 minutes to do the whole thing end to end, right? Now I should actually rerun that test. I’d be shocked if it’s not much faster. I was just using the Groq bot thing- … which has all these stuff built in for using browsers and using a computer, and has its own dedicated computer without you having to set up a computer. It’s basically like a claw in a box.
DHH
And I was asking it to sign up for something, and it kind of… I got a glimpse of like, oh yeah, that’s where we are now, and it’s so much faster to use. But at the time, I was just blown away. And then I used it for a little bit and I found like, ah, it’s not there yet. I can’t actually communicate it within this way. It still needs the CLI. It still needs an MCP because it’s just too slow and too token inefficient and so forth. But it was this glimpse of the future. And then after that, I kinda just didn’t use it, because the things I wanna use agents for, I was mostly in front of my computer to do.
And I was asking it to sign up for something, and it kind of… I got a glimpse of like, oh yeah, that’s where we are now, and it’s so much faster to use. But at the time, I was just blown away. And then I used it for a little bit and I found like, ah, it’s not there yet. I can’t actually communicate it within this way. It still needs the CLI. It still needs an MCP because it’s just too slow and too token inefficient and so forth. But it was this glimpse of the future. And then after that, I kinda just didn’t use it, because the things I wanna use agents for, I was mostly in front of my computer to do.
DHH
Now, that has changed a little bit lately, and it’s one of the reasons why I’m so kind of okay about using Claude Code, because Claude has the best mobile app, where any session you start Claude Code in your terminal on a computer is accessible through the app-
Now, that has changed a little bit lately, and it’s one of the reasons why I’m so kind of okay about using Claude Code, because Claude has the best mobile app, where any session you start Claude Code in your terminal on a computer is accessible through the app-
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I remember
Yeah. I remember
DHH
… without you having to do anything at all.
… without you having to do anything at all.
Lex Fridman
Yep.
Yep.
DHH
And you can do a terminal. Like I installed Terminus and it can run Herder and so on, but it’s a little cumbersome and you’re doing live typing on a computer, so you feel the latency.
And you can do a terminal. Like I installed Terminus and it can run Herder and so on, but it’s a little cumbersome and you’re doing live typing on a computer, so you feel the latency.
DHH
When you’re using the Claude app to your Claude Code instances, it feels just like chatting with it, without the cumbersomeness of having to set up a Telegram account and so forth. Now, if you wanna use an open Claude to like run your life, well, then this doesn’t do that. But I haven’t been so interested in that for some reason. Maybe one of the reasons is that Jamie, my wife, is like, “We’re not getting a robot inside the house.” So I’m like, “Ah, I better not hook it up to the sort of smart house here.” If it starts turning lights on and off like a poltergeist, I don’t think I’m gonna be all that popular. So, and part of the reason I say this, I’ve heard some of the stories of people who have hooked it up to their whole life.
When you’re using the Claude app to your Claude Code instances, it feels just like chatting with it, without the cumbersomeness of having to set up a Telegram account and so forth. Now, if you wanna use an open Claude to like run your life, well, then this doesn’t do that. But I haven’t been so interested in that for some reason. Maybe one of the reasons is that Jamie, my wife, is like, “We’re not getting a robot inside the house.” So I’m like, “Ah, I better not hook it up to the sort of smart house here.” If it starts turning lights on and off like a poltergeist, I don’t think I’m gonna be all that popular. So, and part of the reason I say this, I’ve heard some of the stories of people who have hooked it up to their whole life.
DHH
And I mean, it’s not my story to tell, so I’ll just share sort of the brief anecdote. One guy was telling the story about how he hooked it up to both his health data- … and his Tesla car. And his agent got obsessed with the fact that he wasn’t drinking enough water, and like, “Hey, you gotta drink more water.” So at some point he’s driving along, and suddenly the Tesla starts driving in a new direction. The agent had realized there was a grocery store on the way home-
And I mean, it’s not my story to tell, so I’ll just share sort of the brief anecdote. One guy was telling the story about how he hooked it up to both his health data- … and his Tesla car. And his agent got obsessed with the fact that he wasn’t drinking enough water, and like, “Hey, you gotta drink more water.” So at some point he’s driving along, and suddenly the Tesla starts driving in a new direction. The agent had realized there was a grocery store on the way home-
Lex Fridman
Wow
Wow
DHH
… that they could swing by-
… that they could swing by-
Lex Fridman
That’s great
That’s great
DHH
… and pick up some water.
… and pick up some water.
Lex Fridman
That’s great.
That’s great.
DHH
And you’re like, this is one of those things where it’s like both funny and also totally Black Mirror, and also totally like, well, okay, there’s not that many steps from here where the poltergeist is in your house. So I was just like, “Ah, I don’t need that.” I do actually now like the fact that I can control the agents through Claude Code, just through the app if I, even if I don’t use them that much.
And you’re like, this is one of those things where it’s like both funny and also totally Black Mirror, and also totally like, well, okay, there’s not that many steps from here where the poltergeist is in your house. So I was just like, “Ah, I don’t need that.” I do actually now like the fact that I can control the agents through Claude Code, just through the app if I, even if I don’t use them that much.
Lex Fridman
I do think it’s very useful to, for both OpenClaude and Hermes Agent to use it to get a glimpse of a different interaction mode.
I do think it’s very useful to, for both OpenClaude and Hermes Agent to use it to get a glimpse of a different interaction mode.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And like, just to ’cause it feels like the future, not necessarily in this way, but it’s in some ways going there.
And like, just to ’cause it feels like the future, not necessarily in this way, but it’s in some ways going there.
DHH
Yes. I think what’s also different with those systems is they have this whole memory system, where they’re building up knowledge of who you are and what you like. Toby has told the stories about how his agent will shop for him, that it has an allowance, and it’ll pick out clothes for him, and it’ll just show up at the door because his agent’s- … bought something for him. And like, it’s one of those things where like, man, that feels future. Also a little scary. But I can live vicariously through others who are on that frontier.
Yes. I think what’s also different with those systems is they have this whole memory system, where they’re building up knowledge of who you are and what you like. Toby has told the stories about how his agent will shop for him, that it has an allowance, and it’ll pick out clothes for him, and it’ll just show up at the door because his agent’s- … bought something for him. And like, it’s one of those things where like, man, that feels future. Also a little scary. But I can live vicariously through others who are on that frontier.
Lex Fridman
And like you said, you’re thinking of, in the future, doing a mobile version of Mach-E.
And like you said, you’re thinking of, in the future, doing a mobile version of Mach-E.
DHH
So I mean, this is the delusions of grandeur that start kicking in once you get the seemingly unlimited powers- … I’ve witnessed with the creation of Quattro.
So I mean, this is the delusions of grandeur that start kicking in once you get the seemingly unlimited powers- … I’ve witnessed with the creation of Quattro.
Lex Fridman
So what would that look like? Hard to describe. Do you mean like Android?
So what would that look like? Hard to describe. Do you mean like Android?
DHH
That’s the obvious path, right? So Android is open source, and you can fork it, and people have. There’s all sorts of—GrapheneOS is one such version. There are limitations to that model, I know that. Tap-to-pay and other things around camera models and so forth, but that all seems surmountable. It all seems that I would love if my phone was as malleable as my computer, if it looked as cool as my computer now does. If I could get essentially Omarchy mobile, that sounds amazing.
That’s the obvious path, right? So Android is open source, and you can fork it, and people have. There’s all sorts of—GrapheneOS is one such version. There are limitations to that model, I know that. Tap-to-pay and other things around camera models and so forth, but that all seems surmountable. It all seems that I would love if my phone was as malleable as my computer, if it looked as cool as my computer now does. If I could get essentially Omarchy mobile, that sounds amazing.
Lex Fridman
I wonder how much work that is.
I wonder how much work that is.
DHH
I’m gonna find out.
I’m gonna find out.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. You know, it’s like those things that you realize once you start building, for example, that a browser is very difficult to do.
Yeah. You know, it’s like those things that you realize once you start building, for example, that a browser is very difficult to do.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And so, like, I wonder with the operating system—
And so, like, I wonder with the operating system—
DHH
Yeah, the developers of Ladybird are finding that out, like Andreas and— … his team. Now, interesting with that project was the browser’s basically the second most complicated software system in the world, the first one being the Linux kernel. Right? In terms of these large tens of millions of lines of code systems. So very audacious actually to begin such a mission with a small team like Andreas did before we had agents. But now that we do have agents, we’re gonna see, and we’re probably gonna see sooner rather than later. I mean, if there’s one thing agents are already exceptionally good at, it is to read specs and implement them. And I mean, I don’t know how long the specs are for CSS and HTML at this point, and JavaScript on top, but they’re very long.
Yeah, the developers of Ladybird are finding that out, like Andreas and— … his team. Now, interesting with that project was the browser’s basically the second most complicated software system in the world, the first one being the Linux kernel. Right? In terms of these large tens of millions of lines of code systems. So very audacious actually to begin such a mission with a small team like Andreas did before we had agents. But now that we do have agents, we’re gonna see, and we’re probably gonna see sooner rather than later. I mean, if there’s one thing agents are already exceptionally good at, it is to read specs and implement them. And I mean, I don’t know how long the specs are for CSS and HTML at this point, and JavaScript on top, but they’re very long.
DHH
And it would take humans many, many years to implement them. We’re gonna find out just how quickly agents can do them.
And it would take humans many, many years to implement them. We’re gonna find out just how quickly agents can do them.
Politics and immigration
Lex Fridman
You mentioned getting some criticism for Omarchy, so let’s walk further down that path of criticism. You have made some of your political opinions known. I guess you could broadly put in the category of immigration or illegal immigration, or what—
You mentioned getting some criticism for Omarchy, so let’s walk further down that path of criticism. You have made some of your political opinions known. I guess you could broadly put in the category of immigration or illegal immigration, or what—
DHH
I’d say mass immigration.
I’d say mass immigration.
Lex Fridman
Mass immigration, the role of demographics in the formation of a culture, of a society, of a nation, and you’ve gotten quite a lot of criticism for that and created a lot of drama. Do you regret any of that drama? Like, what’s your general thinking about-
Mass immigration, the role of demographics in the formation of a culture, of a society, of a nation, and you’ve gotten quite a lot of criticism for that and created a lot of drama. Do you regret any of that drama? Like, what’s your general thinking about-
DHH
Not for a second.
Not for a second.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
DHH
And the reason I say that is that the Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. And I think the question of mass immigration in Europe was for many years this total taboo, and it still is in several European countries. Now, for reasons of maybe just chance and happenstance, they weren’t in Denmark. The Danes started having the discussion around mass immigration and the consequences thereof in the mid-’90s.
And the reason I say that is that the Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. And I think the question of mass immigration in Europe was for many years this total taboo, and it still is in several European countries. Now, for reasons of maybe just chance and happenstance, they weren’t in Denmark. The Danes started having the discussion around mass immigration and the consequences thereof in the mid-’90s.
DHH
Really early. And some of it can be traced back to one man, Mogens Glistrup, who was a very quirky character. I remember him, seeing him on the TV in the ’80s talking about the dangers of mass immigration. And this was at a time where– I grew up in the ’80s, and in the neighborhood I grew up in, in Brønshøj, in, what was it? ’84, 99% ethnic Danes, people who could trace their lineage back to Danes who’d lived in that country for 1,000 years. The Danes have one of the oldest monarchies in the world, all the way back to Harald Bluetooth, who’s literally who has named the standard Bluetooth. So well over 1,000 years. Like, there’s a long lineage there of people who lived in the same place. And 99% of the people lived in that neighborhood.
Really early. And some of it can be traced back to one man, Mogens Glistrup, who was a very quirky character. I remember him, seeing him on the TV in the ’80s talking about the dangers of mass immigration. And this was at a time where– I grew up in the ’80s, and in the neighborhood I grew up in, in Brønshøj, in, what was it? ’84, 99% ethnic Danes, people who could trace their lineage back to Danes who’d lived in that country for 1,000 years. The Danes have one of the oldest monarchies in the world, all the way back to Harald Bluetooth, who’s literally who has named the standard Bluetooth. So well over 1,000 years. Like, there’s a long lineage there of people who lived in the same place. And 99% of the people lived in that neighborhood.
DHH
And then early ’90s, I think it goes to 5% or something like that, and then at this point, it’s down to around 60-something or 70%-
And then early ’90s, I think it goes to 5% or something like that, and then at this point, it’s down to around 60-something or 70%-
DHH
in Brønshøj. That’s a big change. And the Danes started noticing that or talking about that, that this was not an undivided blessing, that there were downsides to mass immigration in about the ’90s. And the debate really roared through the 2000s in a way that didn’t happen in the neighboring countries. So Sweden in particular just didn’t have that debate at all. Total taboo. Same thing with Norway, same thing with other countries in Europe. And suddenly now, after some years after ’15, where we had the big migration of a million Syrians walking up through the highways in Europe, and Germany choosing to take a lot of them and 30,000 arriving in Denmark and so forth, it’s gotten more of a focus, right?
in Brønshøj. That’s a big change. And the Danes started noticing that or talking about that, that this was not an undivided blessing, that there were downsides to mass immigration in about the ’90s. And the debate really roared through the 2000s in a way that didn’t happen in the neighboring countries. So Sweden in particular just didn’t have that debate at all. Total taboo. Same thing with Norway, same thing with other countries in Europe. And suddenly now, after some years after ’15, where we had the big migration of a million Syrians walking up through the highways in Europe, and Germany choosing to take a lot of them and 30,000 arriving in Denmark and so forth, it’s gotten more of a focus, right?
DHH
Because this change has happened. And one of the ways I find that you can spot where sort of there’s something that isn’t right in the culture is, like, what are you allowed to talk about? What are you allowed to notice, actually, is how I should put it. And what I noticed in an essay, when was that? Only a year and a half ago as I remember London, was that I started coming to London in the late ’90s or something like that. At the time, whatever, it’s 59%, 60% ethnic Brits. And then 20 years later, we’re down to 34% or something like that. Like, that’s noticeable. Like, literally just walking on the street, you realize, well, this is a different city from what it was when I visited 20 years ago.
Because this change has happened. And one of the ways I find that you can spot where sort of there’s something that isn’t right in the culture is, like, what are you allowed to talk about? What are you allowed to notice, actually, is how I should put it. And what I noticed in an essay, when was that? Only a year and a half ago as I remember London, was that I started coming to London in the late ’90s or something like that. At the time, whatever, it’s 59%, 60% ethnic Brits. And then 20 years later, we’re down to 34% or something like that. Like, that’s noticeable. Like, literally just walking on the street, you realize, well, this is a different city from what it was when I visited 20 years ago.
DHH
And if you went 20 years before that, you get back to similar rates as what the Danes have. This was like a country of ethnic Brits in the 85s, 90s percentiles- … if you get further back. So that’s a different country in a generation. It’s okay to notice that. It’s also okay to think, “Do you know what? I don’t agree with that.”
And if you went 20 years before that, you get back to similar rates as what the Danes have. This was like a country of ethnic Brits in the 85s, 90s percentiles- … if you get further back. So that’s a different country in a generation. It’s okay to notice that. It’s also okay to think, “Do you know what? I don’t agree with that.”
DHH
“I wish it wasn’t that way.” I mean, the last time I was in China was ’19, 2019. I was in Shanghai. It was all Chinese. If I, when I go back here this October, suddenly find that there’s only 30% Chinese and then there’s 70% other people, I’d be a little weird. I’d probably be like, “What happened?” And I would not take offense if the Chinese in that instant would go like, “Ah, we don’t like that.” So this idea that countries of Europe don’t have a right to, A, notice what’s happening and, B, oppose what’s happening, I find just to be wrong, right?
“I wish it wasn’t that way.” I mean, the last time I was in China was ’19, 2019. I was in Shanghai. It was all Chinese. If I, when I go back here this October, suddenly find that there’s only 30% Chinese and then there’s 70% other people, I’d be a little weird. I’d probably be like, “What happened?” And I would not take offense if the Chinese in that instant would go like, “Ah, we don’t like that.” So this idea that countries of Europe don’t have a right to, A, notice what’s happening and, B, oppose what’s happening, I find just to be wrong, right?
DHH
Like there’s just– I think there’s a moral argument for self-determination, and we invoke that argument all the time in other regions around the world that like, oh, the people who live in that region, they have a right to self-determination for their country. And I think it’s completely fair for, say, the Danes or the Swedes or the Norwegians to go like, “Well, we’ve been kingdoms here for a thousand years with a certain ethnic mix-up.” It’s a– I mean, I’m a big fan of immigration. I’m an immigrant to the US. Cherry-picked immigration where countries compete to attract the smartest, most talented people around the world is really good.
Like there’s just– I think there’s a moral argument for self-determination, and we invoke that argument all the time in other regions around the world that like, oh, the people who live in that region, they have a right to self-determination for their country. And I think it’s completely fair for, say, the Danes or the Swedes or the Norwegians to go like, “Well, we’ve been kingdoms here for a thousand years with a certain ethnic mix-up.” It’s a– I mean, I’m a big fan of immigration. I’m an immigrant to the US. Cherry-picked immigration where countries compete to attract the smartest, most talented people around the world is really good.
Lex Fridman
Legal merit-based immigration.
Legal merit-based immigration.
DHH
Merit-based is key here because there’s actually virtually no illegal immigration in most of Europe. Southern Europe has some illegal immigration, but most of Europe does not have a big problem with illegal immigration.
Merit-based is key here because there’s actually virtually no illegal immigration in most of Europe. Southern Europe has some illegal immigration, but most of Europe does not have a big problem with illegal immigration.
DHH
And the problem is with mass immigration of other kinds, and that you end up with demographics that are just totally different from what they were even a few short decades ago. And I think the countries of Europe would benefit from immigration. In fact, one of the interesting things about the Danes is they carry meticulous statistics on immigration. I’m not entirely sure why they’re so detailed. Maybe it’s all the way back to Mogens Glistrup and his discussion in the ’90s, but they do. And what’s clear from those statistics is that when the Danes have folks from the UK, France, the US show up, on average, those immigrants are really beneficial to the Danish state. They contribute far more than what they ask of the state.
And the problem is with mass immigration of other kinds, and that you end up with demographics that are just totally different from what they were even a few short decades ago. And I think the countries of Europe would benefit from immigration. In fact, one of the interesting things about the Danes is they carry meticulous statistics on immigration. I’m not entirely sure why they’re so detailed. Maybe it’s all the way back to Mogens Glistrup and his discussion in the ’90s, but they do. And what’s clear from those statistics is that when the Danes have folks from the UK, France, the US show up, on average, those immigrants are really beneficial to the Danish state. They contribute far more than what they ask of the state.
DHH
So the Danes should accept immigrants who do that, who contribute far more than they take. Then you look at other forms of immigrant groups. There was just a tally that came out last week from a Danish politicians that had asked the, I think finance ministry to do this tally with the latest numbers. What does it cost the Danish state to have positive immigration? This case as I mentioned. I think for the on that list whatever, France, UK, US, they were all clustered around the same thing, about $25,000 net benefit to the Danish state every year. It’s like, wow, that’s very positive. That’s average again, right? And then at the other end of the spectrum on the most costly immigrants was Somalis.
So the Danes should accept immigrants who do that, who contribute far more than they take. Then you look at other forms of immigrant groups. There was just a tally that came out last week from a Danish politicians that had asked the, I think finance ministry to do this tally with the latest numbers. What does it cost the Danish state to have positive immigration? This case as I mentioned. I think for the on that list whatever, France, UK, US, they were all clustered around the same thing, about $25,000 net benefit to the Danish state every year. It’s like, wow, that’s very positive. That’s average again, right? And then at the other end of the spectrum on the most costly immigrants was Somalis.
DHH
They ended up costing the Danish state on average $28,000 a year. I think it’s fair for the Danes to go like, “We’d prefer to get more French, Brits, and Americans and not so many Somalis.”
They ended up costing the Danish state on average $28,000 a year. I think it’s fair for the Danes to go like, “We’d prefer to get more French, Brits, and Americans and not so many Somalis.”
Lex Fridman
Why do you think you got so much hate on that post?
Why do you think you got so much hate on that post?
DHH
That’s a very taboo topic in a lot of circles.
That’s a very taboo topic in a lot of circles.
Lex Fridman
Some of it has to do with Overton window expansion?
Some of it has to do with Overton window expansion?
DHH
I’m sure, but I also think– I mean, I wanna take the steel man argument here. I do think that it, this can turn ugly, right? Is it possible for some of these things to just veer into overt racism that isn’t founded in anything else but a hatred of other people? Yeah, that could happen. But that risk does not negate the need to have a discussion about the makeup of your country and what your immigration policy should be like. And what I also find so funny is, especially in Europe, it’s so kind of myopic that this discussion about whether Europeans should have a right to self-determination about what their countries look like, that standard seems to only apply there. No one is trying to tell the Japanese, “Hey, you’re too Japanese.” Like whatever, it’s 98%, I think, in Tokyo that’s, um-
I’m sure, but I also think– I mean, I wanna take the steel man argument here. I do think that it, this can turn ugly, right? Is it possible for some of these things to just veer into overt racism that isn’t founded in anything else but a hatred of other people? Yeah, that could happen. But that risk does not negate the need to have a discussion about the makeup of your country and what your immigration policy should be like. And what I also find so funny is, especially in Europe, it’s so kind of myopic that this discussion about whether Europeans should have a right to self-determination about what their countries look like, that standard seems to only apply there. No one is trying to tell the Japanese, “Hey, you’re too Japanese.” Like whatever, it’s 98%, I think, in Tokyo that’s, um-
DHH
… Ethnic Japanese, right? Like, is anyone trying to tell the Japanese that their Tokyo would be a much better country if they were down to London levels of ethnic Japanese, that it was, whatever, 37%? I don’t think so. So there’s this weird almost self-loathing, in my opinion, I mean Gad calls it suicidal empathy-
… Ethnic Japanese, right? Like, is anyone trying to tell the Japanese that their Tokyo would be a much better country if they were down to London levels of ethnic Japanese, that it was, whatever, 37%? I don’t think so. So there’s this weird almost self-loathing, in my opinion, I mean Gad calls it suicidal empathy-
DHH
… that permeates this stuff to a degree that I still haven’t fully unpacked. Like, where is this coming from? Why is it that way? But regardless, I just noticed, hey, London looks different. I preferred the old London, as I would say I preferred the neighborhood that I grew up in in Copenhagen, how it looked in the ’80s. Like I totally get how you can then jump five leaps and go like, “Okay, well, that’s racist.” And I also, I don’t care anymore. Like, this is a fair discussion to have.
… that permeates this stuff to a degree that I still haven’t fully unpacked. Like, where is this coming from? Why is it that way? But regardless, I just noticed, hey, London looks different. I preferred the old London, as I would say I preferred the neighborhood that I grew up in in Copenhagen, how it looked in the ’80s. Like I totally get how you can then jump five leaps and go like, “Okay, well, that’s racist.” And I also, I don’t care anymore. Like, this is a fair discussion to have.
DHH
Countries and peoples have a right to set an immigration policy, and this notion that we shouldn’t have any borders or, or even worse than that, it’s all just a blank slate, that all peoples are just the same, and we can take people from one place of the earth and we can place them in another place of, on the earth and everything’s just gonna work out hunky dory. Empirically not true. Europe has been running that experiment since the ’80s. It hasn’t panned out well, and now there are forces in Europe who wanna undo that experiment, who wants to end mass immigration as it’s been run so far. And I happen to believe, and so do a majority of Danes and a bunch of other peoples, that like, “Do you know what? Yeah, it hasn’t been working how we’ve been doing it.
Countries and peoples have a right to set an immigration policy, and this notion that we shouldn’t have any borders or, or even worse than that, it’s all just a blank slate, that all peoples are just the same, and we can take people from one place of the earth and we can place them in another place of, on the earth and everything’s just gonna work out hunky dory. Empirically not true. Europe has been running that experiment since the ’80s. It hasn’t panned out well, and now there are forces in Europe who wanna undo that experiment, who wants to end mass immigration as it’s been run so far. And I happen to believe, and so do a majority of Danes and a bunch of other peoples, that like, “Do you know what? Yeah, it hasn’t been working how we’ve been doing it.
DHH
We gotta make some changes.” And I don’t think that means, again, zero immigration. Again, I’m an immigrant. I think US, generally speaking, have benefited tremendously from immigration, but that’s the kind of sleight of hand. Immigration depends greatly on who immigrates. And a country benefits when the people who immigrate are net contributors to the society, and in most cases, that they assimilate with the local culture.
We gotta make some changes.” And I don’t think that means, again, zero immigration. Again, I’m an immigrant. I think US, generally speaking, have benefited tremendously from immigration, but that’s the kind of sleight of hand. Immigration depends greatly on who immigrates. And a country benefits when the people who immigrate are net contributors to the society, and in most cases, that they assimilate with the local culture.
DHH
If you come to Denmark and you wanna become a Dane, and you put in all the effort, and you contribute to society, I think most Danes would be quite happy to allow that in a reasonable number. If you come to Denmark and you don’t wanna assimilate, and you are a net drain on society, and you live in a parallel society, it’s also fair for Danes to say like, “Uh, let’s stop doing that.”
If you come to Denmark and you wanna become a Dane, and you put in all the effort, and you contribute to society, I think most Danes would be quite happy to allow that in a reasonable number. If you come to Denmark and you don’t wanna assimilate, and you are a net drain on society, and you live in a parallel society, it’s also fair for Danes to say like, “Uh, let’s stop doing that.”
Lex Fridman
It’s interesting that I’m not well-versed on the immigration system in the United States, but as far as I understand, merit-based systems have not passed here.
It’s interesting that I’m not well-versed on the immigration system in the United States, but as far as I understand, merit-based systems have not passed here.
DHH
And then also, American culture is very different. This is a point I did not fully appreciate until living both places extensively. America has a culture of optional assimilation, where it is much easier and then much more condoned for someone coming from Denmark or Ukraine or wherever, come to America, buy into the American set of values and norms and culture, and then be able to be respected as Americans by other Americans. This is what’s so funny to me when there’s discussion like, “America is such a racist country.” I’m like, “Have you ever been anywhere? Do you know what other countries are like?” Like, if you think America is the most racist country, you are simply misinformed.
And then also, American culture is very different. This is a point I did not fully appreciate until living both places extensively. America has a culture of optional assimilation, where it is much easier and then much more condoned for someone coming from Denmark or Ukraine or wherever, come to America, buy into the American set of values and norms and culture, and then be able to be respected as Americans by other Americans. This is what’s so funny to me when there’s discussion like, “America is such a racist country.” I’m like, “Have you ever been anywhere? Do you know what other countries are like?” Like, if you think America is the most racist country, you are simply misinformed.
DHH
I mean, we’re dealing with that with time we’ve spent in Denmark. My wife is American of Scandinavian heritage- … but multiple generations in the US. Very difficult. Very difficult-
I mean, we’re dealing with that with time we’ve spent in Denmark. My wife is American of Scandinavian heritage- … but multiple generations in the US. Very difficult. Very difficult-
Lex Fridman
Oh, wow.
Oh, wow.
DHH
… as a blonde, blue-eyed woman who’s put in all sorts of effort learning the language and doing everything, still very, very difficult to assimilate to Danish culture. In a way where if that had been the other way around and she had been Danish and moving to the US, it would not have been that difficult at all. And this was the other thing. I mean, living in a country like Denmark with an American wife who is of Scandinavian heritage and has put in all the effort, and still realizing, man, assimilation is incredibly difficult, even when you’re 97% there all the way. Holy smokes, must it be almost impossible if you come from a completely foreign culture-
… as a blonde, blue-eyed woman who’s put in all sorts of effort learning the language and doing everything, still very, very difficult to assimilate to Danish culture. In a way where if that had been the other way around and she had been Danish and moving to the US, it would not have been that difficult at all. And this was the other thing. I mean, living in a country like Denmark with an American wife who is of Scandinavian heritage and has put in all the effort, and still realizing, man, assimilation is incredibly difficult, even when you’re 97% there all the way. Holy smokes, must it be almost impossible if you come from a completely foreign culture-
DHH
… and foreign norms and the rest of it. And of course, that’s what the stats I just quoted bear out, that the more dissimilar the culture is and the further it is, the less likely to be successful.
… and foreign norms and the rest of it. And of course, that’s what the stats I just quoted bear out, that the more dissimilar the culture is and the further it is, the less likely to be successful.
Lex Fridman
Has articulating that stance cost you friendships, relationships?
Has articulating that stance cost you friendships, relationships?
DHH
Yes, but not just that alone, I would say. It’s more of the great divide that happened around 2020, where I think a lot of these political fault lines really opened up. And I mean, the shorthand in the US, I think is were you woke or not? And clearly, I had a bunch of people that I thought I had good relations with for many years, who suddenly once that political fault line opened up, they were clearly just not anymore. And I think that’s regrettable. And I think I’ve tried to put an effort into sort of both understanding where that comes from, in part because I’ve changed my mind on several of these topics over the years, and it was like, well, sometimes you just change your mind after time. Sometimes you change your mind after you get new information.
Yes, but not just that alone, I would say. It’s more of the great divide that happened around 2020, where I think a lot of these political fault lines really opened up. And I mean, the shorthand in the US, I think is were you woke or not? And clearly, I had a bunch of people that I thought I had good relations with for many years, who suddenly once that political fault line opened up, they were clearly just not anymore. And I think that’s regrettable. And I think I’ve tried to put an effort into sort of both understanding where that comes from, in part because I’ve changed my mind on several of these topics over the years, and it was like, well, sometimes you just change your mind after time. Sometimes you change your mind after you get new information.
DHH
There’s all sorts of reasons and moments why you may change your mind, and we don’t all change our mind on the same schedule or at all.
There’s all sorts of reasons and moments why you may change your mind, and we don’t all change our mind on the same schedule or at all.
DHH
So surrounding yourself and, or at least interacting with people that don’t think like you on every topic, I think it’s quite healthy. I mean, I occasionally discuss politics with my brother. I mean, we don’t quite see eye to eye on all these topics, and sometimes the discussions can get a little heated, but then they’ll also calm down and we realize, all right, okay, so we don’t agree on this, and then we agree on a lot of other things. We appreciate a lot of the same things. Now, this was actually one of the things when we had our big blowup at Basecamp, I came to appreciate in a whole new way this– earlier norm that talking politics or religion or money with strangers or even acquaintances, and certainly with colleagues, was just not a good idea.
So surrounding yourself and, or at least interacting with people that don’t think like you on every topic, I think it’s quite healthy. I mean, I occasionally discuss politics with my brother. I mean, we don’t quite see eye to eye on all these topics, and sometimes the discussions can get a little heated, but then they’ll also calm down and we realize, all right, okay, so we don’t agree on this, and then we agree on a lot of other things. We appreciate a lot of the same things. Now, this was actually one of the things when we had our big blowup at Basecamp, I came to appreciate in a whole new way this– earlier norm that talking politics or religion or money with strangers or even acquaintances, and certainly with colleagues, was just not a good idea.
DHH
That you had a much higher likelihood of being able to carry a good working relationship with someone if you’re not rubbing your political differences up against each other all the time. So I actually think liberals and conservatives should work together. I think the country would be much worse off if there’s a complete separation between the tribes, and then there can’t be any overlap or interaction. And I think that mingling is so much easier to do if you just don’t focus on your differences all the time. Focus on what you like together. I mean, this is some of the people I’ve had unfortunately drifted from in tech. We had so much in common, so much shared love for, say, Ruby or other things and, like, isn’t that unfortunate?
That you had a much higher likelihood of being able to carry a good working relationship with someone if you’re not rubbing your political differences up against each other all the time. So I actually think liberals and conservatives should work together. I think the country would be much worse off if there’s a complete separation between the tribes, and then there can’t be any overlap or interaction. And I think that mingling is so much easier to do if you just don’t focus on your differences all the time. Focus on what you like together. I mean, this is some of the people I’ve had unfortunately drifted from in tech. We had so much in common, so much shared love for, say, Ruby or other things and, like, isn’t that unfortunate?
Lex Fridman
I would like to live in a world where the differences are very interesting to also talk about. And not to be overly emotional- … about even radical differences. Because in the differences, first of all, that’s where interesting stuff is. And, but also, it’s how you grow. It’s a sign of health in a society if the differences are embraced and they are brought together into community where you can talk about it.
I would like to live in a world where the differences are very interesting to also talk about. And not to be overly emotional- … about even radical differences. Because in the differences, first of all, that’s where interesting stuff is. And, but also, it’s how you grow. It’s a sign of health in a society if the differences are embraced and they are brought together into community where you can talk about it.
DHH
One of the great illustrations of that for me was when I watched a clip from William F. Buckley’s show. I think it was called Firing Line or-
One of the great illustrations of that for me was when I watched a clip from William F. Buckley’s show. I think it was called Firing Line or-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah
DHH
… something like that. And he had a member of the Black Panthers- … on his panel. It was quite obvious that those two gentlemen did not share a lot of politics. They were able to carry a conversation for, I think I watched it, 25 minutes. And Buckley’s just asking, like, “So what do you think about this? What do you think about this?” And like, the Black Panther would reply as you would expect the Black Panther to reply in the ’70s. Like, there was not a lot of sort of conciliatory tones. And I just thought, like, wow, that is so rare. If you had seen that show today, it would’ve been a shouting match. It would’ve been just accusations being hurled back and forth.
… something like that. And he had a member of the Black Panthers- … on his panel. It was quite obvious that those two gentlemen did not share a lot of politics. They were able to carry a conversation for, I think I watched it, 25 minutes. And Buckley’s just asking, like, “So what do you think about this? What do you think about this?” And like, the Black Panther would reply as you would expect the Black Panther to reply in the ’70s. Like, there was not a lot of sort of conciliatory tones. And I just thought, like, wow, that is so rare. If you had seen that show today, it would’ve been a shouting match. It would’ve been just accusations being hurled back and forth.
DHH
The fact that Buckley was able to just have these conversations with people he vehemently disagreed with and still explore all the intellectual facets of their standpoints and letting them speak to those facets, talks of a lost era that I’d very much like to get back to. I mean, I always actually loved talking politics with friends that I trusted could talk about these topics in a way where it didn’t have to be existential.
The fact that Buckley was able to just have these conversations with people he vehemently disagreed with and still explore all the intellectual facets of their standpoints and letting them speak to those facets, talks of a lost era that I’d very much like to get back to. I mean, I always actually loved talking politics with friends that I trusted could talk about these topics in a way where it didn’t have to be existential.
Lex Fridman
But there’s something about the current era where that’s harder and harder to come by. And so what you just articulated is important to say regularly to remind people of an ideal we should all strive for, to be able to have differences and talk about them. ‘Cause like, politics is fun. Like I’ve gotten used to saying I hate politics at this point, but what I really mean is whatever the system that’s currently happening, where there’s certain topics, and we know all the phrases you can say that somehow put you in a bin of blue or red, and that creates drama versus a conversation.
But there’s something about the current era where that’s harder and harder to come by. And so what you just articulated is important to say regularly to remind people of an ideal we should all strive for, to be able to have differences and talk about them. ‘Cause like, politics is fun. Like I’ve gotten used to saying I hate politics at this point, but what I really mean is whatever the system that’s currently happening, where there’s certain topics, and we know all the phrases you can say that somehow put you in a bin of blue or red, and that creates drama versus a conversation.
Lex Fridman
Like I could think of a lot of harmless, if I wasn’t paying attention to the internet, I could think of a bunch of harmless statements I could make analyzing the situation in the world that would trigger everybody to say, “Oh, that guy’s a leftist-” piece of shit,” or a, you know, a right-wing fascist. And then objectively, if I wasn’t paying attention to the internet, I would be, and I have been shocked. ‘Cause I haven’t been paying attention to the internet deeply. Uh but reading and preparing a lot, for example, for the war in Ukraine, and I have been shocked how certain statements from me can come off as one way or the other, and I get viciously attacked for it.
Like I could think of a lot of harmless, if I wasn’t paying attention to the internet, I could think of a bunch of harmless statements I could make analyzing the situation in the world that would trigger everybody to say, “Oh, that guy’s a leftist-” piece of shit,” or a, you know, a right-wing fascist. And then objectively, if I wasn’t paying attention to the internet, I would be, and I have been shocked. ‘Cause I haven’t been paying attention to the internet deeply. Uh but reading and preparing a lot, for example, for the war in Ukraine, and I have been shocked how certain statements from me can come off as one way or the other, and I get viciously attacked for it.
Lex Fridman
But what that attack is doing is it’s saying, “Hey, you, asshole who thinks you could just move about and think freely, pick a bin- … and sit in that fucking bin.” Put on that blue shirt or red shirt. And then, and then actually what I’ve realized is things calm down. They don’t, the system doesn’t pick on you if you just say, “I’m a blue person,” or, “I’m a red person.” But if you’re just, like, curiously exploring the world and reasoning about the world, the system punishes you. And I hate that, ’cause I wanna get back to the Buckley and the Black Panther discussion.
But what that attack is doing is it’s saying, “Hey, you, asshole who thinks you could just move about and think freely, pick a bin- … and sit in that fucking bin.” Put on that blue shirt or red shirt. And then, and then actually what I’ve realized is things calm down. They don’t, the system doesn’t pick on you if you just say, “I’m a blue person,” or, “I’m a red person.” But if you’re just, like, curiously exploring the world and reasoning about the world, the system punishes you. And I hate that, ’cause I wanna get back to the Buckley and the Black Panther discussion.
Lex Fridman
And you were just saying opinions. But then looking pragmatically at the situation, I have realized not to mention politics unless I really care about an issue. ‘Cause I realize there’s a cost. They’ll put you in the blue bin or red bin. So you have to be more deliberate about choosing.
And you were just saying opinions. But then looking pragmatically at the situation, I have realized not to mention politics unless I really care about an issue. ‘Cause I realize there’s a cost. They’ll put you in the blue bin or red bin. So you have to be more deliberate about choosing.
DHH
Yes. And I’ve tried to be more conscious of that, too. And then when I do choose to speak about it, it’s usually because I have deliberated, and I think- … “You know what? This is worth it.” Now, I say that, and then I also catch myself thinking the opposite all the time, that I follow some person or another for whatever their technical work, and then I- … learned or political standpoint. And I often do think, “I wish I didn’t know that.” So, it’s hypocritical- … then to think that of other people and then go like, “Well, occasionally I will-
Yes. And I’ve tried to be more conscious of that, too. And then when I do choose to speak about it, it’s usually because I have deliberated, and I think- … “You know what? This is worth it.” Now, I say that, and then I also catch myself thinking the opposite all the time, that I follow some person or another for whatever their technical work, and then I- … learned or political standpoint. And I often do think, “I wish I didn’t know that.” So, it’s hypocritical- … then to think that of other people and then go like, “Well, occasionally I will-
DHH
… chime in on a debate that’s controversial,” and then you have to accept that there is a price to that. And I do think you should, and more people should, be somewhat conscious about that. And again, we’re both contradicting ourselves here, but saying like, “Wouldn’t it be nice if we could talk about politics in more free and open forum and just intellectually turn ideas around?” Yes, it would. Is that currently possible in the climate of social media and so forth? It’s quite difficult. Now, some of it could simply also be a moment, and we could get past that moment.
… chime in on a debate that’s controversial,” and then you have to accept that there is a price to that. And I do think you should, and more people should, be somewhat conscious about that. And again, we’re both contradicting ourselves here, but saying like, “Wouldn’t it be nice if we could talk about politics in more free and open forum and just intellectually turn ideas around?” Yes, it would. Is that currently possible in the climate of social media and so forth? It’s quite difficult. Now, some of it could simply also be a moment, and we could get past that moment.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I hope so.
Yeah. I hope so.
DHH
Maybe there is a way to get back to Buckley’s conversation with the Black Panthers, even on social media, in a way where those discussions don’t lead to the sort of just vicious mob cancellation nonsense drives that we’ve had, right? I actually think we’re closer there now than we were five years ago. Like, the tribalism and the sanctions those tribes were able to exact on heretics in 2020 was way greater than it was in 2025. Certainly within tech. Now, I know if you’re in academia, I mean, try going into the sociology department at I don’t know, Harvard and mention some right-wing ideas. I don’t think it’s gonna go over very well, and I don’t think you’re gonna recover from it quickly.
Maybe there is a way to get back to Buckley’s conversation with the Black Panthers, even on social media, in a way where those discussions don’t lead to the sort of just vicious mob cancellation nonsense drives that we’ve had, right? I actually think we’re closer there now than we were five years ago. Like, the tribalism and the sanctions those tribes were able to exact on heretics in 2020 was way greater than it was in 2025. Certainly within tech. Now, I know if you’re in academia, I mean, try going into the sociology department at I don’t know, Harvard and mention some right-wing ideas. I don’t think it’s gonna go over very well, and I don’t think you’re gonna recover from it quickly.
DHH
But in, in tech and in many other business domains at least, it is now possible to have an opinion that does not square with what the consensus was in 2020. That’s for sure.
But in, in tech and in many other business domains at least, it is now possible to have an opinion that does not square with what the consensus was in 2020. That’s for sure.
Lex Fridman
Well, there’s some drama in the Rails community. There’s some drama elsewhere. Is it… How did that turn out? Is that all okay?
Well, there’s some drama in the Rails community. There’s some drama elsewhere. Is it… How did that turn out? Is that all okay?
DHH
In the sense that every single round of drama shrinks. So it’s like we’ve, we had this peak infection of mega drama around the same time every other community had a peak infection of drama around 2020. And then you just see, like, every time there’s a new flare up, it’s less. And the kind of people who are ideologically wedded to sort of that struggle just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. And at this point, one of the best things that happened for X, in my opinion, was that Bluesky and Mastodon came around. Because it kind of was like this honeypot for just the most vicious individuals on X and Twitter at the time, right?
In the sense that every single round of drama shrinks. So it’s like we’ve, we had this peak infection of mega drama around the same time every other community had a peak infection of drama around 2020. And then you just see, like, every time there’s a new flare up, it’s less. And the kind of people who are ideologically wedded to sort of that struggle just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. And at this point, one of the best things that happened for X, in my opinion, was that Bluesky and Mastodon came around. Because it kind of was like this honeypot for just the most vicious individuals on X and Twitter at the time, right?
DHH
Who just congregated here in an ever-shrinking echo chamber that just went through purity cycle after purity cycle and shrank every single time to the point that there were just not a lot left. And the people who are left now there, they’re just out of sight, out of mind. And that’s not to say that X is some sort of perfect place, or there aren’t firing squads occasionally there, or there aren’t… But there’s less of it. Like, every single time I’ve been pulled into a Mastodon, or not been pulled in, just spectated from afar, thread, a Bluesky or whatever, it was like, “Oh, shit yeah, this is what Twitter used to be like. Jesus.” And now you can actually be on X, as I am, and, like, 90% of my engagement is about cool Linux stuff, cool technology stuff.
Who just congregated here in an ever-shrinking echo chamber that just went through purity cycle after purity cycle and shrank every single time to the point that there were just not a lot left. And the people who are left now there, they’re just out of sight, out of mind. And that’s not to say that X is some sort of perfect place, or there aren’t firing squads occasionally there, or there aren’t… But there’s less of it. Like, every single time I’ve been pulled into a Mastodon, or not been pulled in, just spectated from afar, thread, a Bluesky or whatever, it was like, “Oh, shit yeah, this is what Twitter used to be like. Jesus.” And now you can actually be on X, as I am, and, like, 90% of my engagement is about cool Linux stuff, cool technology stuff.
DHH
“Look, I discovered a new computer. Can you see how fast it is?” And I can have those conversations with other people who are just also excited about computers. And then there’s, like, 10% of it left that’s like, all right, I’ll chime in on something that’s a little controversial, and we can have a little discussion there. And then we can just go back to being excited about computers. The algorithm is actually very good at finding stuff that you will find interesting, or I shouldn’t say that, engaging. Sometimes it’s enraging, but it is engaging, and therefore, revealed preference is that most people want a For You page. They don’t want just a following feed.
“Look, I discovered a new computer. Can you see how fast it is?” And I can have those conversations with other people who are just also excited about computers. And then there’s, like, 10% of it left that’s like, all right, I’ll chime in on something that’s a little controversial, and we can have a little discussion there. And then we can just go back to being excited about computers. The algorithm is actually very good at finding stuff that you will find interesting, or I shouldn’t say that, engaging. Sometimes it’s enraging, but it is engaging, and therefore, revealed preference is that most people want a For You page. They don’t want just a following feed.
Lex Fridman
No, but they’re addicted to the For You page, right?
No, but they’re addicted to the For You page, right?
DHH
They… Yes, yes. That’s true.
They… Yes, yes. That’s true.
Lex Fridman
I think an LLM, like, if we had a strong LLM doing the feed that’s personalized, it would do much better. The problem is how to deliver that at scale is extremely difficult.
I think an LLM, like, if we had a strong LLM doing the feed that’s personalized, it would do much better. The problem is how to deliver that at scale is extremely difficult.
DHH
Well, the problem is the, the reward function is engagement. And as soon as the reward function is engagement— … engagement’s gonna follow base instincts, and here we go. But I also don’t wanna be so negative. To me, and I get we all have our own personalized algorithms, and sometimes it gets a little much. But I would say, on average, over the last 10 years, this is the best X has ever been. And I say that as someone who cares about a lot of technology talk, a lot of Linux talk, and a lot of that. That that’s able to happen now in a way where it doesn’t constantly get gatecrashed by people who wanna drag it into some political discussion…
Well, the problem is the, the reward function is engagement. And as soon as the reward function is engagement— … engagement’s gonna follow base instincts, and here we go. But I also don’t wanna be so negative. To me, and I get we all have our own personalized algorithms, and sometimes it gets a little much. But I would say, on average, over the last 10 years, this is the best X has ever been. And I say that as someone who cares about a lot of technology talk, a lot of Linux talk, and a lot of that. That that’s able to happen now in a way where it doesn’t constantly get gatecrashed by people who wanna drag it into some political discussion…
DHH
… I find to be really awesome. I find actually X to be a great place to find that. Now, it’s also a place to find other things, and we all have our own algorithms, so you can’t make any declarative announcements about what X is or what it isn’t. Your feed is probably totally different from my feed, and it’s totally different from someone else’s feed, right?
… I find to be really awesome. I find actually X to be a great place to find that. Now, it’s also a place to find other things, and we all have our own algorithms, so you can’t make any declarative announcements about what X is or what it isn’t. Your feed is probably totally different from my feed, and it’s totally different from someone else’s feed, right?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I can’t comment on this because of the nature of the fact that I interview a wide variety of people, my feed is probably just a—
Yeah, I can’t comment on this because of the nature of the fact that I interview a wide variety of people, my feed is probably just a—
DHH
Is it, is it good for your feed or is it bad for your feed that you have to have it, right?
Is it, is it good for your feed or is it bad for your feed that you have to have it, right?
Lex Fridman
It’s bad.
It’s bad.
DHH
Okay.
Okay.
Lex Fridman
It’s bad ’cause I could be like, “I’m eating this apple. It’s so delicious.”
It’s bad ’cause I could be like, “I’m eating this apple. It’s so delicious.”
DHH
Oh.
Oh.
Lex Fridman
And then a bunch of people will show up, “Well, it’s because you’re a Zelensky shill—
And then a bunch of people will show up, “Well, it’s because you’re a Zelensky shill—
DHH
Yeah, right.
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman
… or you’re a Putin shill, you piece of shit.” It’s like, all right. I’ll just go back to the-
… or you’re a Putin shill, you piece of shit.” It’s like, all right. I’ll just go back to the-
DHH
I mean, I occasionally have a little bit of that where you just go like, “Wait, what? What are we talking about? What are you… Why would you show up in this way?” This is one of the reasons why I actually really enjoy podcasts, because I have found that even in long form writing, when I make long form arguments, people hear it in whatever voice they have in their head for me. And that often gets pre-programmed in advance of the arguments, just like, well, this guy is a, whatever, fascist. And then they hear the words and they read the words in those names. When they see or hear the actual tone of how I’m presenting the arguments, they may not agree with those arguments. I mean, many of them, of course, obviously don’t. But it’s much harder to just dismiss or hate someone like that.
I mean, I occasionally have a little bit of that where you just go like, “Wait, what? What are we talking about? What are you… Why would you show up in this way?” This is one of the reasons why I actually really enjoy podcasts, because I have found that even in long form writing, when I make long form arguments, people hear it in whatever voice they have in their head for me. And that often gets pre-programmed in advance of the arguments, just like, well, this guy is a, whatever, fascist. And then they hear the words and they read the words in those names. When they see or hear the actual tone of how I’m presenting the arguments, they may not agree with those arguments. I mean, many of them, of course, obviously don’t. But it’s much harder to just dismiss or hate someone like that.
DHH
At least that’s what I’ve found, and that’s the response that I’ve gotten, that people are like, “Well, I had a certain opinion and then I heard you on Lex. That actually sounded much more reasonable.”
At least that’s what I’ve found, and that’s the response that I’ve gotten, that people are like, “Well, I had a certain opinion and then I heard you on Lex. That actually sounded much more reasonable.”
Lex Fridman
But even more than that, I would love it if people just exercise this kind of approach to other people of, like, assuming they’re a good person.
But even more than that, I would love it if people just exercise this kind of approach to other people of, like, assuming they’re a good person.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And then, and if they have an opinion you disagree with, they’re a good person who has an opinion. You can maybe think they’re stupid, fine. Just think they’re lost. But think of them as a good person. I think if you think of, you start, there’s, one of the things that gets engagement is kind of shitting on other people.
And then, and if they have an opinion you disagree with, they’re a good person who has an opinion. You can maybe think they’re stupid, fine. Just think they’re lost. But think of them as a good person. I think if you think of, you start, there’s, one of the things that gets engagement is kind of shitting on other people.
DHH
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
And if you just approach other people as they’re, you’re looking for bad, you will always find bad in them. There’s something annoying about them.
And if you just approach other people as they’re, you’re looking for bad, you will always find bad in them. There’s something annoying about them.
DHH
100%.
100%.
Lex Fridman
And if you look at people in that way, you’re not gonna learn from it, and you’re gonna fill your heart with hate. You’re not gonna, it’s just a bad way to live and to interact with the world, and that is one of the things that the internet kind of encourages, so. It’d be nice if you just approach even people who you really disagree with, it’s like, oh, I might learn something from this person. The Black Panther person, William Buckley, we might hate just love them.
And if you look at people in that way, you’re not gonna learn from it, and you’re gonna fill your heart with hate. You’re not gonna, it’s just a bad way to live and to interact with the world, and that is one of the things that the internet kind of encourages, so. It’d be nice if you just approach even people who you really disagree with, it’s like, oh, I might learn something from this person. The Black Panther person, William Buckley, we might hate just love them.
DHH
So microcosm of this. There’s a guy, Theo, I don’t know if you follow him.
So microcosm of this. There’s a guy, Theo, I don’t know if you follow him.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DHH
We had a bit of a thing over the fact that we stopped using TypeScript-
We had a bit of a thing over the fact that we stopped using TypeScript-
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
DHH
… for a project, and he didn’t like that and had opinions about that and other actions. And after that I thought like, what a bozo. And, and do you know what? I still think that was a bozo move, and then I can also think like, well, the dude’s really into AI. He’s trying all these models, and we can share some excitement about that, so I just started following him yesterday.
… for a project, and he didn’t like that and had opinions about that and other actions. And after that I thought like, what a bozo. And, and do you know what? I still think that was a bozo move, and then I can also think like, well, the dude’s really into AI. He’s trying all these models, and we can share some excitement about that, so I just started following him yesterday.
Lex Fridman
Awesome.
Awesome.
DHH
I was like, do you know what? I don’t have to agree with you on everything. I don’t even have to like some of the things that you did or said or whatever. I can follow you anyway. So if I can follow back Theo, then I think there’s room for world peace here.
I was like, do you know what? I don’t have to agree with you on everything. I don’t even have to like some of the things that you did or said or whatever. I can follow you anyway. So if I can follow back Theo, then I think there’s room for world peace here.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, he’s actually a really good example. He, he’s really opinionated, changes his mind quite a bit, can get snarky, but I think he’s a good person underneath.
Yeah, he’s actually a really good example. He, he’s really opinionated, changes his mind quite a bit, can get snarky, but I think he’s a good person underneath.
DHH
And either way, I just, you know what? My feed is more interesting when there’s some people talking about things that I care about and yeah, I don’t have to agree with you on everything. I just don’t.
And either way, I just, you know what? My feed is more interesting when there’s some people talking about things that I care about and yeah, I don’t have to agree with you on everything. I just don’t.
Longevity, over-optimization, and fear of death
Lex Fridman
This I found pretty funny, that you mentioned something your wife said that stuck with you, that all this tech-adjacent extreme longevity focus in men is like anorexia in women, a physical manifestation of anxiety and lack of control. That somehow rang true a little bit.
This I found pretty funny, that you mentioned something your wife said that stuck with you, that all this tech-adjacent extreme longevity focus in men is like anorexia in women, a physical manifestation of anxiety and lack of control. That somehow rang true a little bit.
DHH
It certainly did to a lot of people. I think that tweet really popped off, and I don’t know if you noticed, but Bryan Johnson chimed in on the thread, and I could see how Bryan would read that as a bit of a jab. And I do think that Jamie was probably thinking of him amongst other people in that conversation. And it’s also an example of where even though I’m not subscribing to Bryan’s mission of, I think it’s the slogan’s Don’t Die.
It certainly did to a lot of people. I think that tweet really popped off, and I don’t know if you noticed, but Bryan Johnson chimed in on the thread, and I could see how Bryan would read that as a bit of a jab. And I do think that Jamie was probably thinking of him amongst other people in that conversation. And it’s also an example of where even though I’m not subscribing to Bryan’s mission of, I think it’s the slogan’s Don’t Die.
DHH
I actually do wanna die. I don’t wanna do this forever. Like, I think the human lifespan of about 90 to 100 sounds about right. I’m embracing the finitude of life. We don’t have to agree on that. In fact, Bryan is a vastly more interesting human to me because we don’t agree with that, and Bryan’s willingness to literally put his own skin and all sorts of other body elements in the game for that mission is really interesting. Now, I can have that view—this is really interesting, I’m glad Bryan is pursuing this passion of his—and then also find my wife’s analysis to ring true, that it does seem like there is some underlying, I don’t know, fear of…
I actually do wanna die. I don’t wanna do this forever. Like, I think the human lifespan of about 90 to 100 sounds about right. I’m embracing the finitude of life. We don’t have to agree on that. In fact, Bryan is a vastly more interesting human to me because we don’t agree with that, and Bryan’s willingness to literally put his own skin and all sorts of other body elements in the game for that mission is really interesting. Now, I can have that view—this is really interesting, I’m glad Bryan is pursuing this passion of his—and then also find my wife’s analysis to ring true, that it does seem like there is some underlying, I don’t know, fear of…
DHH
I was talking to Jamie yesterday about this, and she was saying or comparing it to this sense of people who didn’t feel like they had lived enough. And one of the reasons perhaps that they hadn’t lived enough was that modern society now is a surveillance state, not by the state actually, but by each other. There are camera phones everywhere. Every indiscretion or even outburst of fun or cringe is highly likely to be recorded and then shared to the point of ridicule. And what is the rational reaction for humans under those conditions is to pull back, is to make sure you don’t dance like nobody’s watching because-
I was talking to Jamie yesterday about this, and she was saying or comparing it to this sense of people who didn’t feel like they had lived enough. And one of the reasons perhaps that they hadn’t lived enough was that modern society now is a surveillance state, not by the state actually, but by each other. There are camera phones everywhere. Every indiscretion or even outburst of fun or cringe is highly likely to be recorded and then shared to the point of ridicule. And what is the rational reaction for humans under those conditions is to pull back, is to make sure you don’t dance like nobody’s watching because-
DHH
… they’re probably filming you to your great and eternal embarrassment on the internet, so maybe you just shouldn’t dance at all. And therefore, if we’ve all retracted to the point that we’re barely living, we’re clinging on to wanting it to last forever. Now-
… they’re probably filming you to your great and eternal embarrassment on the internet, so maybe you just shouldn’t dance at all. And therefore, if we’ve all retracted to the point that we’re barely living, we’re clinging on to wanting it to last forever. Now-
DHH
… I mean, I’m sure that thesis does not apply in all circumstances. I don’t even know if it applies to Bryan or, or anyone else here. But I think there’s something to this: that if you feel like you’ve really lived, you’re okay thinking I’ve lived enough, and that it having an end is not something to be fought. Now, is it also possible that this is all just existential post-rationalization, and if tomorrow there was a live forever pill, we’d all take it? Yeah, that’s possible. Is it also possible that if we did that, society would be worse off? Yes. Is it possible that the human lifespan is the length it is for sociological reasons, not just biological reasons? Yes.
… I mean, I’m sure that thesis does not apply in all circumstances. I don’t even know if it applies to Bryan or, or anyone else here. But I think there’s something to this: that if you feel like you’ve really lived, you’re okay thinking I’ve lived enough, and that it having an end is not something to be fought. Now, is it also possible that this is all just existential post-rationalization, and if tomorrow there was a live forever pill, we’d all take it? Yeah, that’s possible. Is it also possible that if we did that, society would be worse off? Yes. Is it possible that the human lifespan is the length it is for sociological reasons, not just biological reasons? Yes.
DHH
So I think these are just all interesting questions, and I just thought her analysis really got to something here. And that discussion has come up afterwards. I mean, that, I think that tweet is like a year old. But just recently, we’ve been talking about this over-optimizers. I saw Chris Williamson, Modern Wisdom had a bit where he was like, “Yeah, okay, maybe we did go a little overboard.” And the triggering thing was the Diary of a CEO, where the host was saying something to the effect of, “I had a glass of wine and the next three days were ruined.”
So I think these are just all interesting questions, and I just thought her analysis really got to something here. And that discussion has come up afterwards. I mean, that, I think that tweet is like a year old. But just recently, we’ve been talking about this over-optimizers. I saw Chris Williamson, Modern Wisdom had a bit where he was like, “Yeah, okay, maybe we did go a little overboard.” And the triggering thing was the Diary of a CEO, where the host was saying something to the effect of, “I had a glass of wine and the next three days were ruined.”
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
DHH
And that to me, I mean, in his circumstance, I’m sure that’s true. Like, if you have not drank any alcohol for a very long time and you have just a little, I could see how it can have an effect. But also there’s something in that that just triggered a visceral reaction, I think, for a lot of people, and myself included, where I was like, “Fuck, man, I should have a glass of wine just right now, even though I don’t usually drink.” And in fact I think the alcohol question is a good microcosm to zoom in on. So we’ve all stopped drinking apparently, like alcohol sales are way down- … certainly amongst young people. And then on the one hand, on the pure health metrics, whatever, we can go like, “Oh wow, isn’t that great?”
And that to me, I mean, in his circumstance, I’m sure that’s true. Like, if you have not drank any alcohol for a very long time and you have just a little, I could see how it can have an effect. But also there’s something in that that just triggered a visceral reaction, I think, for a lot of people, and myself included, where I was like, “Fuck, man, I should have a glass of wine just right now, even though I don’t usually drink.” And in fact I think the alcohol question is a good microcosm to zoom in on. So we’ve all stopped drinking apparently, like alcohol sales are way down- … certainly amongst young people. And then on the one hand, on the pure health metrics, whatever, we can go like, “Oh wow, isn’t that great?”
DHH
And then I go like, “Yeah, I’m not so sure it is.” Like the social lubricant that alcohol can provide may be missed, is missed. I mean, we are in an absolute epidemic of loneliness and misery and depression and whatever, and a fair amount of it just probably comes because you’re not interacting enough with other people. Now, that’s before we even talk about coupling, right? Like way down, people having a very hard time meeting a spouse. And-
And then I go like, “Yeah, I’m not so sure it is.” Like the social lubricant that alcohol can provide may be missed, is missed. I mean, we are in an absolute epidemic of loneliness and misery and depression and whatever, and a fair amount of it just probably comes because you’re not interacting enough with other people. Now, that’s before we even talk about coupling, right? Like way down, people having a very hard time meeting a spouse. And-
DHH
… a lot of that has moved over to apps that have all sorts of negative outcomes and consequences, right? Like maybe we will look back, or maybe we already are looking back and thinking like, “Eh, do you know what? Maybe getting wasted every once in a while was not the worst thing in the world.” And whether wasted or not, maybe just having a couple of drinks every Friday or Saturday when you’re out and about was part of what helped society get to where it is. Maybe the fact that humans have literally been drinking for whatever it is, like 13,000 years fermenting things, had a social purpose, and we pull out Chesterton’s fence of our own chagrin, right?
… a lot of that has moved over to apps that have all sorts of negative outcomes and consequences, right? Like maybe we will look back, or maybe we already are looking back and thinking like, “Eh, do you know what? Maybe getting wasted every once in a while was not the worst thing in the world.” And whether wasted or not, maybe just having a couple of drinks every Friday or Saturday when you’re out and about was part of what helped society get to where it is. Maybe the fact that humans have literally been drinking for whatever it is, like 13,000 years fermenting things, had a social purpose, and we pull out Chesterton’s fence of our own chagrin, right?
Lex Fridman
As you mentioned, in the spirit of that, so when I traveled across rural China, I did smoke a little bit in, in my early 20s, but I picked up just for that trip-
As you mentioned, in the spirit of that, so when I traveled across rural China, I did smoke a little bit in, in my early 20s, but I picked up just for that trip-
DHH
A social connector, right?
A social connector, right?
Lex Fridman
And I drank humongous amounts, even though I don’t really drink these days, because of the social thing. It’s the way they show love. And I also ate shitload of carbs, which- … I’m usually low carb. I just like meat. So just because it’s the way they show love. And actually even, it’s in that society cigarettes, but in most societies, liquor is a thing to do together. And it’s a bond. The benefits that that entails can, in many situations, outweigh the negative consequences like long-term for whatever, however you measure them.
And I drank humongous amounts, even though I don’t really drink these days, because of the social thing. It’s the way they show love. And I also ate shitload of carbs, which- … I’m usually low carb. I just like meat. So just because it’s the way they show love. And actually even, it’s in that society cigarettes, but in most societies, liquor is a thing to do together. And it’s a bond. The benefits that that entails can, in many situations, outweigh the negative consequences like long-term for whatever, however you measure them.
DHH
And this is the myopia of modernity, that we reduce things down to like, well, one glass on this long run study meant that you had a 0.1% greater risk of some heart defect. Yes, but if you didn’t live at all, what’s the point? And again, it’s also easy to flip over the other side. Like the only way to live is to get drunk every weekend and eat a bunch of crap and smoke 40 cigarettes a day. No, it’s not. Like it doesn’t have to be the either/or. This is one of the reasons I stopped wearing my Oura Ring. So I wore the Oura sleep ring for many years, four years. And one day I was just like, “I don’t need to know that I had-” … “a bad night of sleep.” Like I know. This added, I don’t wanna call it an anxiety, I don’t have a lot of anxiety, but this added just like reminder-
And this is the myopia of modernity, that we reduce things down to like, well, one glass on this long run study meant that you had a 0.1% greater risk of some heart defect. Yes, but if you didn’t live at all, what’s the point? And again, it’s also easy to flip over the other side. Like the only way to live is to get drunk every weekend and eat a bunch of crap and smoke 40 cigarettes a day. No, it’s not. Like it doesn’t have to be the either/or. This is one of the reasons I stopped wearing my Oura Ring. So I wore the Oura sleep ring for many years, four years. And one day I was just like, “I don’t need to know that I had-” … “a bad night of sleep.” Like I know. This added, I don’t wanna call it an anxiety, I don’t have a lot of anxiety, but this added just like reminder-
DHH
… that I had a bad night of sleep, what purpose is it actually playing here? Why do I need to have all these stats? Why do I need to optimize everything? To the point where, again, after that single anecdote, you know, from Diary of a CEO, I was like, “Fuck, I kind of want the opposite.” Like- I don’t barely drink at all. I, a glass of wine once a month maybe. Like, do you know what? I should start just on the weekends, get a glass. Maybe two.
… that I had a bad night of sleep, what purpose is it actually playing here? Why do I need to have all these stats? Why do I need to optimize everything? To the point where, again, after that single anecdote, you know, from Diary of a CEO, I was like, “Fuck, I kind of want the opposite.” Like- I don’t barely drink at all. I, a glass of wine once a month maybe. Like, do you know what? I should start just on the weekends, get a glass. Maybe two.
DHH
And also, I mean, I’ve never been the person to fret about my diet. This is one of the great privileges of being married to—and I’ll do a quick aside here. Don’t ever call a woman in her 40s a wonderful woman. My wife was so pissed… that not only last year did I come on her birthday, that was bad enough, but that I called her a wonderful woman on the show, because that sounded like her name was Nancy and she was 65— … in the suburb of Rochester. So I’m like, I was trying to play the 50. Like, no, I don’t know, I’m Danish. How, how would I know? But that didn’t go over well. So I’m gonna say awesome woman instead.
And also, I mean, I’ve never been the person to fret about my diet. This is one of the great privileges of being married to—and I’ll do a quick aside here. Don’t ever call a woman in her 40s a wonderful woman. My wife was so pissed… that not only last year did I come on her birthday, that was bad enough, but that I called her a wonderful woman on the show, because that sounded like her name was Nancy and she was 65— … in the suburb of Rochester. So I’m like, I was trying to play the 50. Like, no, I don’t know, I’m Danish. How, how would I know? But that didn’t go over well. So I’m gonna say awesome woman instead.
DHH
If you marry an awesome woman who also not only knows how to cook, but enjoys it do you know what? There’s a very traditional division of labor here that has been quite stable through several … tens of thousands of years in human societies, that perhaps also wasn’t the worst idea in the world. And I also know there are plenty of men who like to cook, and there are women who don’t. But as stereotypes go, eh, that certainly helped me. Like, I don’t think I would’ve been able to just be as relaxed about food if I didn’t eat relatively healthy on a regular basis. But the overall point being just getting out of that optimization game without turning into the opposite. You don’t have to be a fat slob on the couch either. You can move around.
If you marry an awesome woman who also not only knows how to cook, but enjoys it do you know what? There’s a very traditional division of labor here that has been quite stable through several … tens of thousands of years in human societies, that perhaps also wasn’t the worst idea in the world. And I also know there are plenty of men who like to cook, and there are women who don’t. But as stereotypes go, eh, that certainly helped me. Like, I don’t think I would’ve been able to just be as relaxed about food if I didn’t eat relatively healthy on a regular basis. But the overall point being just getting out of that optimization game without turning into the opposite. You don’t have to be a fat slob on the couch either. You can move around.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. And then the bigger point we’re talking about is the finiteness of life.
Yeah. And then the bigger point we’re talking about is the finiteness of life.
DHH
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And I agree with you on this.
And I agree with you on this.
DHH
This was actually a feature, I built it into Omarchy. So memento mori. Remember death. If you pull down the calendar in Amaci, you open it by clicking the clock. It opens up, and the first funny thing, I took it off the internet. There’s this account called Years Progress, and it, every day it updates, and it just shows 63% done with 2026. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one. So it just fills up. So I built that into the calendar. So right now it says, “We’re 63% done with 2026.” But then if you double-click that, it’ll ask you, “When were you born? How long do you expect to live?” And the default is 90. So I put in 1979. And then right below the line of, like, how long are we done with the year-
This was actually a feature, I built it into Omarchy. So memento mori. Remember death. If you pull down the calendar in Amaci, you open it by clicking the clock. It opens up, and the first funny thing, I took it off the internet. There’s this account called Years Progress, and it, every day it updates, and it just shows 63% done with 2026. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one. So it just fills up. So I built that into the calendar. So right now it says, “We’re 63% done with 2026.” But then if you double-click that, it’ll ask you, “When were you born? How long do you expect to live?” And the default is 90. So I put in 1979. And then right below the line of, like, how long are we done with the year-
Lex Fridman
Oh, that’s beautiful.
Oh, that’s beautiful.
DHH
… is a new line that shows how long are you done with your life. I think I’m at 62%. I’m like, if you hover over it, it says, “Memento mori.”
… is a new line that shows how long are you done with your life. I think I’m at 62%. I’m like, if you hover over it, it says, “Memento mori.”
Lex Fridman
That’s beautiful.
That’s beautiful.
DHH
Fair number of people found it morbid, but this was why it is an Easter egg. It’s not, like, exposed. You gotta click a few things to get there. I like the reminder. I like the reminder that time is finite, and I should make the most of it. And this is also one of the privileges of having children. You really realize that the cliches are all true. Oh my God, it goes so fast. And I remember my now 13-year-old being one, being two. I was like, “This was just yesterday.” And the reason it’s a cliche is because it’s a shared experience. Cliches are good. They remind you that you are part of the human experience, and others have been here before you.
Fair number of people found it morbid, but this was why it is an Easter egg. It’s not, like, exposed. You gotta click a few things to get there. I like the reminder. I like the reminder that time is finite, and I should make the most of it. And this is also one of the privileges of having children. You really realize that the cliches are all true. Oh my God, it goes so fast. And I remember my now 13-year-old being one, being two. I was like, “This was just yesterday.” And the reason it’s a cliche is because it’s a shared experience. Cliches are good. They remind you that you are part of the human experience, and others have been here before you.
Eternal recurrence and future of human civization
Lex Fridman
I have to ask, you mentioned the amazing woman and great cook.
I have to ask, you mentioned the amazing woman and great cook.
DHH
Amazing.
Amazing.
Lex Fridman
Amazing.
Amazing.
DHH
Very important to remember. Not wonderful, amazing.
Very important to remember. Not wonderful, amazing.
Lex Fridman
Amazing. So there’s this… You talked some shit about croissants or something. I saw this in a tweet. So is the Danish croissant somehow better?
Amazing. So there’s this… You talked some shit about croissants or something. I saw this in a tweet. So is the Danish croissant somehow better?
DHH
Actually, Danish croissants are not particularly good. In my opinion, the only place you can find a half-decent croissant, of all places, is 7-Eleven, which is hilarious to me because 7-Eleven in the US is the place where, at least in Chicago, you’d go to get a slushie and try to avoid getting murdered. But in Denmark, 7-Eleven is this very upscale, super nice convenience store, and they just happen to make decent croissants. And it always baffled me that I lived in the United States for 20 freaking years. I have yet to have a single croissant that’s even at the level of a 7-Eleven croissant in Copenhagen. That seems improbable.
Actually, Danish croissants are not particularly good. In my opinion, the only place you can find a half-decent croissant, of all places, is 7-Eleven, which is hilarious to me because 7-Eleven in the US is the place where, at least in Chicago, you’d go to get a slushie and try to avoid getting murdered. But in Denmark, 7-Eleven is this very upscale, super nice convenience store, and they just happen to make decent croissants. And it always baffled me that I lived in the United States for 20 freaking years. I have yet to have a single croissant that’s even at the level of a 7-Eleven croissant in Copenhagen. That seems improbable.
Lex Fridman
Have you understood why?
Have you understood why?
DHH
No, I’ve legitimately considered hiring an investigative journalist to get to the bottom of this, because the number of theories I’ve heard have been all over the place. It’s the water. It’s the butter. It’s the skill. It’s the this, it’s the that, it’s the other thing. I’m like, none of it adds up to me. If it’s the butter, can’t you just import it? I thought I saw Danish butter in some supermarkets over here at the Lurpak. So that can’t be it. Can it be the skill? No, it can’t be the skill. There are plenty of French people and Belgian people, the best croissant makers in the world, who live in the US. Like, what is the reason? And then I get the second thing, which is- … “No, no, you just haven’t gone to the right place.” I’ve literally gone to 15 of quote unquote-
No, I’ve legitimately considered hiring an investigative journalist to get to the bottom of this, because the number of theories I’ve heard have been all over the place. It’s the water. It’s the butter. It’s the skill. It’s the this, it’s the that, it’s the other thing. I’m like, none of it adds up to me. If it’s the butter, can’t you just import it? I thought I saw Danish butter in some supermarkets over here at the Lurpak. So that can’t be it. Can it be the skill? No, it can’t be the skill. There are plenty of French people and Belgian people, the best croissant makers in the world, who live in the US. Like, what is the reason? And then I get the second thing, which is- … “No, no, you just haven’t gone to the right place.” I’ve literally gone to 15 of quote unquote-
DHH
… “the right place,” and all the croissants were shit. So before I leave the planet, I have to get to the bottom of why the United States cannot make a proper croissant. And I don’t, I’m not even asking about peak French croissants, peak Belgian croissants- … which are the best croissants in the world. I’m just asking about the 7-Eleven croissant from Copenhagen. Is that too much to ask for?
… “the right place,” and all the croissants were shit. So before I leave the planet, I have to get to the bottom of why the United States cannot make a proper croissant. And I don’t, I’m not even asking about peak French croissants, peak Belgian croissants- … which are the best croissants in the world. I’m just asking about the 7-Eleven croissant from Copenhagen. Is that too much to ask for?
Lex Fridman
That’s a fascinating mystery. What, zooming out, what’s your favorite… This makes me wanna know, what’s your favorite meal? Like, if you, if I gave you a last meal and were to murder you after.
That’s a fascinating mystery. What, zooming out, what’s your favorite… This makes me wanna know, what’s your favorite meal? Like, if you, if I gave you a last meal and were to murder you after.
DHH
It all depends whether it’s lunch or it’s dinner. If it’s lunch-
It all depends whether it’s lunch or it’s dinner. If it’s lunch-
Lex Fridman
It’s one meal. What’s… I feel like if you’re getting murdered, it doesn’t really matter if it’s lunch or dinner.
It’s one meal. What’s… I feel like if you’re getting murdered, it doesn’t really matter if it’s lunch or dinner.
DHH
Well, it depends on what time of day you’re getting murdered.
Well, it depends on what time of day you’re getting murdered.
Lex Fridman
Oh, I see.
Oh, I see.
DHH
If it’s an afternoon execution, I only get lunch.
If it’s an afternoon execution, I only get lunch.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
DHH
And if I get lunch, it’s at Louisiana, the museum north of Copenhagen. I was just there with Jamie two days ago, and we go there all the time. The museum is lovely. We don’t go for the museum. We go for the cafeteria. That in itself sounds crazy. Like-
And if I get lunch, it’s at Louisiana, the museum north of Copenhagen. I was just there with Jamie two days ago, and we go there all the time. The museum is lovely. We don’t go for the museum. We go for the cafeteria. That in itself sounds crazy. Like-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it does.
Yeah, it does.
DHH
… you’re gonna, you’re gonna drive half an hour to go to a cafeteria. Well, it just so happens to be, it is the best lunch I’ve probably ever had in my life. The chef there is just unbelievably good, and not only is the food amazing, what’s even more amazing to my systems-thinking brain is that at any one time when we were up there, I think there were probably 200 people waiting for their food.
… you’re gonna, you’re gonna drive half an hour to go to a cafeteria. Well, it just so happens to be, it is the best lunch I’ve probably ever had in my life. The chef there is just unbelievably good, and not only is the food amazing, what’s even more amazing to my systems-thinking brain is that at any one time when we were up there, I think there were probably 200 people waiting for their food.
Lex Fridman
Oh, shit.
Oh, shit.
DHH
And our food was delivered in five minutes. They have a small menu, and clearly they make it in bulk, and it’s unbelievably delicious.
And our food was delivered in five minutes. They have a small menu, and clearly they make it in bulk, and it’s unbelievably delicious.
Lex Fridman
Just a cafeteria at a museum?
Just a cafeteria at a museum?
DHH
It’s a cafeteria at a museum that happens to have the best lunch I’ve ever had anywhere in my life.
It’s a cafeteria at a museum that happens to have the best lunch I’ve ever had anywhere in my life.
Lex Fridman
What ki- what kind of food are we talking about? What’s, what kind of lunch food?
What ki- what kind of food are we talking about? What’s, what kind of lunch food?
DHH
It’s, like, Nordic cuisine, so it’s, it’s… A funny thing is the menu, when I looked at it, I was like, “Do you know what? If I saw this menu…” As a kid, I’d go like, “I’m not eating here.”
It’s, like, Nordic cuisine, so it’s, it’s… A funny thing is the menu, when I looked at it, I was like, “Do you know what? If I saw this menu…” As a kid, I’d go like, “I’m not eating here.”
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
DHH
It’s like, I don’t know-
It’s like, I don’t know-
Lex Fridman
This is pretty fancy.
This is pretty fancy.
DHH
… root free fruit and- … and onions- … and all sorts of healthy stuff. That sounds disgusting. And then you sit down and eat it, and the angels sing. But it’s even more particular than that. It’s the butter. The whipped butter that they have there, the best butter anywhere in the world.
… root free fruit and- … and onions- … and all sorts of healthy stuff. That sounds disgusting. And then you sit down and eat it, and the angels sing. But it’s even more particular than that. It’s the butter. The whipped butter that they have there, the best butter anywhere in the world.
Lex Fridman
I think that has to be connected to the croissant mystery too.
I think that has to be connected to the croissant mystery too.
DHH
There, there must be some connection. But literally- … even in Paris, I’ve never had whipped butter that tastes as delicious as the butter does at Louisiana in Copenhagen. Literally, I would drive 30 minutes- … to have bread and butter at the cafeteria in Louisiana.
There, there must be some connection. But literally- … even in Paris, I’ve never had whipped butter that tastes as delicious as the butter does at Louisiana in Copenhagen. Literally, I would drive 30 minutes- … to have bread and butter at the cafeteria in Louisiana.
Lex Fridman
Well, how’d you discover that? Just one day you went to the museum and-
Well, how’d you discover that? Just one day you went to the museum and-
DHH
I think we just went to the museum-
I think we just went to the museum-
Lex Fridman
And you tried a whole dish?
And you tried a whole dish?
DHH
… and we had the lunch, and we were like…
… and we had the lunch, and we were like…
Lex Fridman
This is weird.
This is weird.
DHH
This is rivaling the best tasting restaurants- … I’ve ever been to in my life, and I’ve gone to Noma a couple of times and tried what there is to try, and this is right up there.
This is rivaling the best tasting restaurants- … I’ve ever been to in my life, and I’ve gone to Noma a couple of times and tried what there is to try, and this is right up there.
Lex Fridman
All right. What about dinner, since you mentioned? Is it something different that you have to think-
All right. What about dinner, since you mentioned? Is it something different that you have to think-
DHH
Well, I think there’s a lot of good options in Copenhagen, but actually I’ll pick a place in Spain. So there is this place in Marbella called Puente Romano. It’s a hotel, and down by the beach, they have this beach restaurant with fresh seafood. Unbelievably delicious. I’m trying to remember what it’s called, but yeah, if you look it up, the beach seafood place at Puente Romano is incredible.
Well, I think there’s a lot of good options in Copenhagen, but actually I’ll pick a place in Spain. So there is this place in Marbella called Puente Romano. It’s a hotel, and down by the beach, they have this beach restaurant with fresh seafood. Unbelievably delicious. I’m trying to remember what it’s called, but yeah, if you look it up, the beach seafood place at Puente Romano is incredible.
Lex Fridman
How much of great food is, like, the place and the person you’re with, right? Or the experience when you first are there?
How much of great food is, like, the place and the person you’re with, right? Or the experience when you first are there?
DHH
I mean, the ambiance certainly helps, but I think my taste buds are also just-
I mean, the ambiance certainly helps, but I think my taste buds are also just-
Lex Fridman
Okay, that-
Okay, that-
DHH
… in tune for-
… in tune for-
Lex Fridman
So it’s legit,
So it’s legit,
DHH
… flavors
… flavors
Lex Fridman
… it is just good food.
… it is just good food.
DHH
It’s just really good food. Because for ex- that cafeteria, there’s a lot of people. Like I wouldn’t rate it as like, oh my God, this is just a place I want to sit for two hours. But the food is so delicious.
It’s just really good food. Because for ex- that cafeteria, there’s a lot of people. Like I wouldn’t rate it as like, oh my God, this is just a place I want to sit for two hours. But the food is so delicious.
Lex Fridman
That’s one of the things I’m, in traveling across the country, I’m realizing to sample without bias, just try things. ‘Cause you I guess you might just be surprised. Maybe I’ll find your croissant. All right, we’ve talked about mortality. We talked about food.
That’s one of the things I’m, in traveling across the country, I’m realizing to sample without bias, just try things. ‘Cause you I guess you might just be surprised. Maybe I’ll find your croissant. All right, we’ve talked about mortality. We talked about food.
DHH
Settled end of life.
Settled end of life.
Lex Fridman
A thousand years from now, what do you think is the future of humans, human civilization? You think we’re gonna make it?
A thousand years from now, what do you think is the future of humans, human civilization? You think we’re gonna make it?
DHH
A thousand years from now?
A thousand years from now?
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
DHH
Man, I’m having trouble predicting 12 months from now.
Man, I’m having trouble predicting 12 months from now.
Lex Fridman
I know.
I know.
DHH
A thousand?
A thousand?
Lex Fridman
You think we got a shot?
You think we got a shot?
DHH
Oh, I’m gonna bet on optimism. I’m gonna bet on a multi-planetary species. I’m gonna bet that Elon gets that rocket to Mars, and we figure out how to bend space-time and discover some wormholes or, or something.
Oh, I’m gonna bet on optimism. I’m gonna bet on a multi-planetary species. I’m gonna bet that Elon gets that rocket to Mars, and we figure out how to bend space-time and discover some wormholes or, or something.
Lex Fridman
Once we do, do you think, you think all humans on Earth will die once or twice and be repopulated after we get a good backup going?
Once we do, do you think, you think all humans on Earth will die once or twice and be repopulated after we get a good backup going?
DHH
I mean, that was actually one of my favorite episodes of Black Mirror, the one where they get uploaded to the 1980s sea town somewhere. And I just thought like, wow, this is both such a dark moment, yet also so beautiful in the shared recognition that, like, the ’80s were actually kind of amazing. Like, I don’t have a lot of nostalgia for many moments, but I do have nostalgia for the ’80s.
I mean, that was actually one of my favorite episodes of Black Mirror, the one where they get uploaded to the 1980s sea town somewhere. And I just thought like, wow, this is both such a dark moment, yet also so beautiful in the shared recognition that, like, the ’80s were actually kind of amazing. Like, I don’t have a lot of nostalgia for many moments, but I do have nostalgia for the ’80s.
Lex Fridman
But-
But-
DHH
And they say something about, like, whatever place and time you were in, the music you were listening to when you were 12 or- … or 14, 15, something like that, that’s what’s gonna stick with you. Like, no, I was only, I got to be 10 in the ’80s. So this was my early childhood, and I still have an unbelievably fond affiliation with the ’80s. So if I’m gonna be uploaded to the sky-
And they say something about, like, whatever place and time you were in, the music you were listening to when you were 12 or- … or 14, 15, something like that, that’s what’s gonna stick with you. Like, no, I was only, I got to be 10 in the ’80s. So this was my early childhood, and I still have an unbelievably fond affiliation with the ’80s. So if I’m gonna be uploaded to the sky-
Lex Fridman
You want it to be the ’80s.
You want it to be the ’80s.
DHH
… I’m doing the ’80s.
… I’m doing the ’80s.
Lex Fridman
Wow. I don’t think I’ve actually ever heard anyone say that. Usually it’s ’70s or ’90s.
Wow. I don’t think I’ve actually ever heard anyone say that. Usually it’s ’70s or ’90s.
DHH
Oh, and the-
Oh, and the-
Lex Fridman
Because the ’80s is a-
Because the ’80s is a-
DHH
I really don’t like the ’90s. Can we talk about this?
I really don’t like the ’90s. Can we talk about this?
Lex Fridman
No, I’m done. Not done.
No, I’m done. Not done.
DHH
To me, this was the great turning point of nihilism. That both the music, the genre, the fashion- … everything turned from, like, this glamour, the pop, the optimism, even the yuppies and everything- … to grunge and Nirvana. And even though, I mean, I like the music, I don’t like the ethics. I don’t like- … the morals. I don’t like any of the underpinnings to it. There was just such a defeatism to it- … that in retrospect, I look back upon it, if I’m gonna get reinserted into the matrix, it’s gonna be the ’80s.
To me, this was the great turning point of nihilism. That both the music, the genre, the fashion- … everything turned from, like, this glamour, the pop, the optimism, even the yuppies and everything- … to grunge and Nirvana. And even though, I mean, I like the music, I don’t like the ethics. I don’t like- … the morals. I don’t like any of the underpinnings to it. There was just such a defeatism to it- … that in retrospect, I look back upon it, if I’m gonna get reinserted into the matrix, it’s gonna be the ’80s.
Lex Fridman
That was full of optimism and fun- … and colors.
That was full of optimism and fun- … and colors.
DHH
Yes. I remember having these orange pants- … with, like, white dots on them. That was just a normal thing kids could wear in the ’80s. I’ve never fucking seen that today. Or I mean, even in the ’90s, it all turned just, like, Seattle gray. Great regression.
Yes. I remember having these orange pants- … with, like, white dots on them. That was just a normal thing kids could wear in the ’80s. I’ve never fucking seen that today. Or I mean, even in the ’90s, it all turned just, like, Seattle gray. Great regression.
Lex Fridman
So the Nietzschean, you know, this idea of eternal recurrence. If you do a Groundhog Day and you live forever, you want it to be in the orange pants with the white dots in the ’80s.
So the Nietzschean, you know, this idea of eternal recurrence. If you do a Groundhog Day and you live forever, you want it to be in the orange pants with the white dots in the ’80s.
DHH
Maybe I’m gonna skip the orange pants, but- … I’m definitely picking the ’80s.
Maybe I’m gonna skip the orange pants, but- … I’m definitely picking the ’80s.
Lex Fridman
You said it. All right, DHH. Thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for being an inspiration to all of us, for building cool shit in the world, and thank you for talking today.
You said it. All right, DHH. Thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for being an inspiration to all of us, for building cool shit in the world, and thank you for talking today.
DHH
Anytime. Thank you, Lex, again for having me.
Anytime. Thank you, Lex, again for having me.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Thanks for listening to this conversation with DHH. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Ralph Waldo Emerson. “Once you make a decision, the universe conspires to make it happen.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Yeah. Thanks for listening to this conversation with DHH. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Ralph Waldo Emerson. “Once you make a decision, the universe conspires to make it happen.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Transcript for Khabib Nurmagomedov: Dagestan, Fighting, Islam, Conor, Gaethje & Football | Lex Fridman Podcast #500
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #500 with Khabib Nurmagomedov.
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
that take you directly to that point in
the main video. Please note that the transcript is
human generated, and may have errors.
Here are some useful links:
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
that take you directly to that point in
the main video. Please note that the transcript is
human generated, and may have errors.
Here are some useful links:
- Go back to this episode’s main page
- Watch the full YouTube version of the podcast
Table of Contents
Here are the loose “chapters” in the conversation.
Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
- 0:00 – Introduction
- 1:35 – Why Dagestan produces so many great fighters
- 11:41 – History of Dagestan warrior culture
- 21:02 – Hard training in the mountains of Dagestan
- 24:53 – The trap of fame, money, and power
- 35:34 – The key to Khabib’s dominance
- 46:47 – Discipline and hard work
- 59:15 – Street fights in Dagestan
- 1:12:56 – Khabib’s top pressure
- 1:18:40 – Khabib vs Conor McGregor
- 1:31:25 – Khabib’s toughest fight
- 1:39:12 – Greatest MMA fighters of all time
- 1:56:57 – Coaching
- 2:02:30 – Daniel Cormier
- 2:06:48 – Islam Makhachev
- 2:16:46 – Dana White
- 2:20:16 – Joe Rogan
- 2:22:31 – Ali Abdelaziz
- 2:25:08 – Football
- 2:32:23 – Messi vs Ronaldo
- 2:50:23 – Dubai
- 2:54:14 – God
- 3:01:57 – Advice for young people
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Khabib Nurmagomedov, one of the greatest fighters of all time, who retired from the UFC undefeated with a perfect twenty-nine and O record. It was a huge honor for me to meet him, to train together, and to have this deep conversation. We had this conversation entirely in Russian. This was my first time doing so on this podcast. And even these words I’m saying right now are spoken in Russian. So if you’re hearing me in English, you’re actually listening to the English dub. On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer. For the original Russian version, select Russian. And for the English dub, select English.
The following is a conversation with Khabib Nurmagomedov, one of the greatest fighters of all time, who retired from the UFC undefeated with a perfect twenty-nine and O record. It was a huge honor for me to meet him, to train together, and to have this deep conversation. We had this conversation entirely in Russian. This was my first time doing so on this podcast. And even these words I’m saying right now are spoken in Russian. So if you’re hearing me in English, you’re actually listening to the English dub. On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer. For the original Russian version, select Russian. And for the English dub, select English.
Lex Fridman
Subtitles are also available in both languages. The translation and dubbing are a collaborative effort of translators, real human beings, including myself and AI. Thanks to the incredible team at ElevenLabs for their help. And now, please allow me to take this moment to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for your love and support all these years. I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. And now, dear friends, here’s Khabib Nurmagomedov.
Subtitles are also available in both languages. The translation and dubbing are a collaborative effort of translators, real human beings, including myself and AI. Thanks to the incredible team at ElevenLabs for their help. And now, please allow me to take this moment to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for your love and support all these years. I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. And now, dear friends, here’s Khabib Nurmagomedov.
Why Dagestan produces so many great fighters
Lex Fridman
Let’s try in Russian if we can, like you suggested.
Let’s try in Russian if we can, like you suggested.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I can help you out if you need.
I can help you out if you need.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, thanks, brother. I kind of feel it in my heart and soul, but sometimes I can’t find the right words.
Yeah, thanks, brother. I kind of feel it in my heart and soul, but sometimes I can’t find the right words.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I know, brother. We got this.
I know, brother. We got this.
Lex Fridman
Great. Let’s start from the beginning. So that gym back in Dagestan where you trained is legendary for its spartan conditions. There was just one shower for seventy people, only cold water. And yet, this humble little gym managed to raise more than twenty world champions, including several UFC champions. Can you try to explain or maybe reflect on what factors in that gym, those training sessions, that life in Dagestan created so many champions?
Great. Let’s start from the beginning. So that gym back in Dagestan where you trained is legendary for its spartan conditions. There was just one shower for seventy people, only cold water. And yet, this humble little gym managed to raise more than twenty world champions, including several UFC champions. Can you try to explain or maybe reflect on what factors in that gym, those training sessions, that life in Dagestan created so many champions?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Sure. So we’re talking about the gym, the one located in Makhachkala. And Makhachkala, for the people who don’t know, it’s the capital of Dagestan. This was back around the years from two thousand to two thousand and ten, and even later on. In twenty nineteen, we opened up a big gym, a major facility that is still functioning to this day. But before twenty nineteen, we all actually trained in that gym where there was practically nothing. It was just a school gym with nothing but mats, a single punching bag, one climbing rope, and a kind of indoor basketball court. And if we go even further back, before two thousand, before we moved to Makhachkala, we lived in a village. In the village, we had a gym right inside our house.
Sure. So we’re talking about the gym, the one located in Makhachkala. And Makhachkala, for the people who don’t know, it’s the capital of Dagestan. This was back around the years from two thousand to two thousand and ten, and even later on. In twenty nineteen, we opened up a big gym, a major facility that is still functioning to this day. But before twenty nineteen, we all actually trained in that gym where there was practically nothing. It was just a school gym with nothing but mats, a single punching bag, one climbing rope, and a kind of indoor basketball court. And if we go even further back, before two thousand, before we moved to Makhachkala, we lived in a village. In the village, we had a gym right inside our house.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
My father, he built a gym at home, and he was training all the local village kids right there. And there were times back when I was a child, let’s say when I was maybe six or seven years old, I would occasionally wake up to the sound of people training, doing their drills right there in the gym. You know, like with judo or freestyle when they’re drilling, one guy throwing another. Those are my first conscious memories. I was maybe five, six, seven years old at that time. So my father set up this gym in the village and trained local kids, including me, my older brother, and all our close and distant relatives, anyone who wanted to come. A lot of kids came to him.
My father, he built a gym at home, and he was training all the local village kids right there. And there were times back when I was a child, let’s say when I was maybe six or seven years old, I would occasionally wake up to the sound of people training, doing their drills right there in the gym. You know, like with judo or freestyle when they’re drilling, one guy throwing another. Those are my first conscious memories. I was maybe five, six, seven years old at that time. So my father set up this gym in the village and trained local kids, including me, my older brother, and all our close and distant relatives, anyone who wanted to come. A lot of kids came to him.
Lex Fridman
So you would wake up and there are these sounds.
So you would wake up and there are these sounds.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah. You hear the hitting, the throwing over and over. And my father’s voice, how he’s shouting, giving instructions, pushing someone, coaching, teaching. I lived with those sounds. But that was in the village. And later when we moved to Makhachkala, well, you couldn’t say the gym there was wow either. There were only mats. And of course, the most valuable thing an athlete can have, a coach, my father. So he trained us there. And to be honest, until I, let’s say, until I became a champion and had big success, we never had a good big gym where we could, you know, all take a shower together at the same time after training. We always had just one shower for everyone, no proper amenities.
Yeah. You hear the hitting, the throwing over and over. And my father’s voice, how he’s shouting, giving instructions, pushing someone, coaching, teaching. I lived with those sounds. But that was in the village. And later when we moved to Makhachkala, well, you couldn’t say the gym there was wow either. There were only mats. And of course, the most valuable thing an athlete can have, a coach, my father. So he trained us there. And to be honest, until I, let’s say, until I became a champion and had big success, we never had a good big gym where we could, you know, all take a shower together at the same time after training. We always had just one shower for everyone, no proper amenities.
Lex Fridman
So your life story began in the mountains of Dagestan in Sildi, then Kirovaul, and then Makhachkala. And in all these situations, there are very interesting stories. But one of the things I heard you say is that the best results are born out of the worst conditions. What can you say about that? Philosophically, is it correct to say that comfort is kind of the enemy for champions?
So your life story began in the mountains of Dagestan in Sildi, then Kirovaul, and then Makhachkala. And in all these situations, there are very interesting stories. But one of the things I heard you say is that the best results are born out of the worst conditions. What can you say about that? Philosophically, is it correct to say that comfort is kind of the enemy for champions?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It depends on the sport. For example, let’s say in football, you have to have conditions. You can’t really play if there is practically no field. Of course, you can play in the dirt, and it happens sometimes. You can start there. But when you are ten or twelve years old, you already have to be at a certain level. You must have conditions. But if we look at our sport, then what is the most important thing? The coach. You also need sparring partners who will push you in the gym, as they say, right? And you need the mats. Our sport is not expensive. You just buy your wrestling shoes, singlets, shorts, a T-shirt. And if there’s a mat, you wrestle, you become a champion, you fight. But when you live too well, let’s say, you know, you’re never in need…
It depends on the sport. For example, let’s say in football, you have to have conditions. You can’t really play if there is practically no field. Of course, you can play in the dirt, and it happens sometimes. You can start there. But when you are ten or twelve years old, you already have to be at a certain level. You must have conditions. But if we look at our sport, then what is the most important thing? The coach. You also need sparring partners who will push you in the gym, as they say, right? And you need the mats. Our sport is not expensive. You just buy your wrestling shoes, singlets, shorts, a T-shirt. And if there’s a mat, you wrestle, you become a champion, you fight. But when you live too well, let’s say, you know, you’re never in need…
Khabib Nurmagomedov
For example, you were born into a wealthy family and you already have everything. Would that same wealthy father, would he force you to do such a brutal sport? A sport where you come home every day with injuries, where you come home with an exhausted body, you come home with bruises. Would he really do that? That’s the question. And the kid himself, who lives a life of luxury, would he even want to do this? When we look at it statistically, the answer is no. This is where you need that hunger. You have to be in a position where you are truly in need.
For example, you were born into a wealthy family and you already have everything. Would that same wealthy father, would he force you to do such a brutal sport? A sport where you come home every day with injuries, where you come home with an exhausted body, you come home with bruises. Would he really do that? That’s the question. And the kid himself, who lives a life of luxury, would he even want to do this? When we look at it statistically, the answer is no. This is where you need that hunger. You have to be in a position where you are truly in need.
Lex Fridman
And it’s interesting that there’s a psychological side to this as well, that you need a tough situation to create champions. But what’s really interesting is how Dagestan has produced so many wrestling champions. You mentioned football. Let’s look at other countries. Why has Brazil produced so many great football players? Why does Argentina have so many football players? Of course, you have Germany, France, and all that.
And it’s interesting that there’s a psychological side to this as well, that you need a tough situation to create champions. But what’s really interesting is how Dagestan has produced so many wrestling champions. You mentioned football. Let’s look at other countries. Why has Brazil produced so many great football players? Why does Argentina have so many football players? Of course, you have Germany, France, and all that.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
European, yeah.
European, yeah.
Lex Fridman
The whole European side. But those are completely different cultures.
The whole European side. But those are completely different cultures.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. Well, in Brazil, their strength is in their numbers. How many people do they have? The population is huge, more than two hundred million. And people really love it there. It’s a huge tradition. Because, you know, without a real love for this sport, you can never achieve any success. You truly have to love what you are doing. So they have the tradition and they have the love for it, and that is why they play for all the top clubs. Well, I think they just win by numbers.
Yes. Well, in Brazil, their strength is in their numbers. How many people do they have? The population is huge, more than two hundred million. And people really love it there. It’s a huge tradition. Because, you know, without a real love for this sport, you can never achieve any success. You truly have to love what you are doing. So they have the tradition and they have the love for it, and that is why they play for all the top clubs. Well, I think they just win by numbers.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, that’s a powerful aspect of their culture. How much people, how much the whole nation loves to play football. And if you add to that a system that creates strong teams, that’s how you can produce so many football legends.
Yeah, that’s a powerful aspect of their culture. How much people, how much the whole nation loves to play football. And if you add to that a system that creates strong teams, that’s how you can produce so many football legends.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. Take Dagestan, for example. We love football. I just know how much people in Dagestan love football. Yes, we have wrestlers, fighters. There are many of us. But for football players, there is no ecosystem like that. Not so well organized where a kid can, for example, play at school, then go to some academy, then get noticed there, and then get picked up by a club. We don’t have that system. It’s just kids running on the streets, playing on the streets, following football. Let’s say playing on PlayStation. There is no system. There is no selection process where kids can go and show themselves, so they can be noticed and get signed. I think Brazil and other countries, and of course Europe, they have it. So yeah, we have big problems with football.
Yes. Take Dagestan, for example. We love football. I just know how much people in Dagestan love football. Yes, we have wrestlers, fighters. There are many of us. But for football players, there is no ecosystem like that. Not so well organized where a kid can, for example, play at school, then go to some academy, then get noticed there, and then get picked up by a club. We don’t have that system. It’s just kids running on the streets, playing on the streets, following football. Let’s say playing on PlayStation. There is no system. There is no selection process where kids can go and show themselves, so they can be noticed and get signed. I think Brazil and other countries, and of course Europe, they have it. So yeah, we have big problems with football.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
However, in our sports where you can wrestle, where you can fight, in that sense, we have a system. For example, the gyms, you know, in Makhachkala, let’s say for combat sports. I’m not even counting like freestyle wrestling or other styles. There may be forty or fifty gyms for combat sports, and all are full. If you win in Dagestan, you move on to the North Caucasus level, then to the Russian nationals. If you’re champion of Russia, you go to the Worlds. In amateurs, they notice you and you make a name for yourself. There is a certain ladder here. But in many other sports here in Dagestan, we don’t have such a well-structured ladder for people to climb.
However, in our sports where you can wrestle, where you can fight, in that sense, we have a system. For example, the gyms, you know, in Makhachkala, let’s say for combat sports. I’m not even counting like freestyle wrestling or other styles. There may be forty or fifty gyms for combat sports, and all are full. If you win in Dagestan, you move on to the North Caucasus level, then to the Russian nationals. If you’re champion of Russia, you go to the Worlds. In amateurs, they notice you and you make a name for yourself. There is a certain ladder here. But in many other sports here in Dagestan, we don’t have such a well-structured ladder for people to climb.
Lex Fridman
Can we look at this philosophically again? I mean, you’ve seen so many wrestlers, fighters. Why exactly were these gyms creating so many champions? I’m just honestly curious because it’s rare in any sport, one gym or a small number of gyms creating so many champions.
Can we look at this philosophically again? I mean, you’ve seen so many wrestlers, fighters. Why exactly were these gyms creating so many champions? I’m just honestly curious because it’s rare in any sport, one gym or a small number of gyms creating so many champions.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, first important factor is the competition level is incredibly high. You come to the gym, and in every spot you have good wrestlers, ten or fifteen guys right there, and the coaches are great. You know, it so happened that my father broke through in the media, and then I became a champion, and the other guys became champions too. And my father’s philosophy, it really resonated, and he became known for it.
Well, first important factor is the competition level is incredibly high. You come to the gym, and in every spot you have good wrestlers, ten or fifteen guys right there, and the coaches are great. You know, it so happened that my father broke through in the media, and then I became a champion, and the other guys became champions too. And my father’s philosophy, it really resonated, and he became known for it.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
But there are coaches in Dagestan that not many people know about. They are known locally, but they are very good, and actually they have the knowledge, they have the approach, they have the philosophy. They could also be at the same level as my father was. I believe there are really quite a few of them. In terms of the coaching, I think Dagestan was extremely lucky. It probably goes back to the nineteen fifties when wrestling really took off here, starting with Ali Aliyev, our legendary wrestler, a five-time world champion who went to the Olympics three times. That’s where it started, with his generation. There was Zagalav Abdulbekov, Ali Aliyev. Those are the well-known names.
But there are coaches in Dagestan that not many people know about. They are known locally, but they are very good, and actually they have the knowledge, they have the approach, they have the philosophy. They could also be at the same level as my father was. I believe there are really quite a few of them. In terms of the coaching, I think Dagestan was extremely lucky. It probably goes back to the nineteen fifties when wrestling really took off here, starting with Ali Aliyev, our legendary wrestler, a five-time world champion who went to the Olympics three times. That’s where it started, with his generation. There was Zagalav Abdulbekov, Ali Aliyev. Those are the well-known names.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I mean, those guys are famous, but there were so many other less known wrestlers who later on, after they retired, they all became great coaches themselves. And these coaches, they raised a very large number of guys who are really good at wrestling. And then some of those coaches, they kind of switched over to fighting, let’s say to grappling, to MMA, and they started coaching in combat Sambo as well. And it just kept going like that, you know. It was moving forward step by step. And so we have a huge number of really great coaches. I believe this is one of the single most important keys to the success of Dagestani wrestlers and fighters, the coaching staff of Dagestan.
I mean, those guys are famous, but there were so many other less known wrestlers who later on, after they retired, they all became great coaches themselves. And these coaches, they raised a very large number of guys who are really good at wrestling. And then some of those coaches, they kind of switched over to fighting, let’s say to grappling, to MMA, and they started coaching in combat Sambo as well. And it just kept going like that, you know. It was moving forward step by step. And so we have a huge number of really great coaches. I believe this is one of the single most important keys to the success of Dagestani wrestlers and fighters, the coaching staff of Dagestan.
History of Dagestan warrior culture
Lex Fridman
Is it more about technique or is it really just about serious, incredibly hard work?
Is it more about technique or is it really just about serious, incredibly hard work?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, you have to look at the traditions, because generally it’s just the way it is in Dagestan. Everyone wrestles. Everyone fights. It’s part of our culture. You know yourself, fighting is like fifty percent wrestling. Every parent wants their children to wrestle, to be physically strong. Our approach to kids is that a child must be strong. They must be able to stand up for themselves, for their family. It’s something that has traditionally always been in every single one of our clans, every family, every village. It’s just in our blood.
Well, you have to look at the traditions, because generally it’s just the way it is in Dagestan. Everyone wrestles. Everyone fights. It’s part of our culture. You know yourself, fighting is like fifty percent wrestling. Every parent wants their children to wrestle, to be physically strong. Our approach to kids is that a child must be strong. They must be able to stand up for themselves, for their family. It’s something that has traditionally always been in every single one of our clans, every family, every village. It’s just in our blood.
Lex Fridman
I mean, it’s worth pointing out, and you’ve actually written about this, that this isn’t just a recent thing. It’s been going on for hundreds of years.
I mean, it’s worth pointing out, and you’ve actually written about this, that this isn’t just a recent thing. It’s been going on for hundreds of years.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, that’s right. These lands, Dagestan specifically, have seen powerful armies sweep through time and time again. Because of that, people here have always had to fight to survive.
Yes, that’s right. These lands, Dagestan specifically, have seen powerful armies sweep through time and time again. Because of that, people here have always had to fight to survive.
Lex Fridman
Refusing to back down, refusing to give up their land or lose their identity.
Refusing to back down, refusing to give up their land or lose their identity.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Their homes, their villages, yeah, their families, and land. If we look back a thousand years in history, maybe fifteen hundred years, there was the Khazar Khaganate, the Arabic Caliphate, then the Iranian Empire, or the Persian Empire, I should say. Then the Russian Empire, Timur passed through there, the Mongols. And if we look at the geographical location of Dagestan, for those who don’t know, the Caucasus range runs across the whole region like a wall, and then it slopes down right where the Caspian lowlands are. So you’ve got the sea on the right, the mountains on the left, and the Caspian lowlands right here. And there was a city there that’s still standing today. It’s one of the oldest cities in the world, not just in Russia. It’s Derbent.
Their homes, their villages, yeah, their families, and land. If we look back a thousand years in history, maybe fifteen hundred years, there was the Khazar Khaganate, the Arabic Caliphate, then the Iranian Empire, or the Persian Empire, I should say. Then the Russian Empire, Timur passed through there, the Mongols. And if we look at the geographical location of Dagestan, for those who don’t know, the Caucasus range runs across the whole region like a wall, and then it slopes down right where the Caspian lowlands are. So you’ve got the sea on the right, the mountains on the left, and the Caspian lowlands right here. And there was a city there that’s still standing today. It’s one of the oldest cities in the world, not just in Russia. It’s Derbent.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It used to be called Babul Abwab. It means the gate of gates. Very major trade routes went through there. Very large armies passed through, and it was bound to leave a mark on the people. We have so many languages, more than thirty different languages, and people just don’t understand each other. Take Islam and me. We have different languages, come from different backgrounds. Islam is Lak, and I’m Avar. When we talk, it’s not like it’s a dialect. We don’t understand each other at all. But since Islam has been with us for nearly twenty-five years, he actually picked up some Avar over time. But anyway, the deep history of the region, it all left its mark. It created many different languages and traditions.
It used to be called Babul Abwab. It means the gate of gates. Very major trade routes went through there. Very large armies passed through, and it was bound to leave a mark on the people. We have so many languages, more than thirty different languages, and people just don’t understand each other. Take Islam and me. We have different languages, come from different backgrounds. Islam is Lak, and I’m Avar. When we talk, it’s not like it’s a dialect. We don’t understand each other at all. But since Islam has been with us for nearly twenty-five years, he actually picked up some Avar over time. But anyway, the deep history of the region, it all left its mark. It created many different languages and traditions.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Basically, of course, Islam is our primary religion, but Dagestan has actually absorbed a lot of cultures and faiths. Even our food culture, it is incredibly rich. We have European and Asian and Caucasian, our own unique cuisine. So on the people, on the people themselves, the last fifteen hundred years of history have left a huge mark. If you’re into history and you start reading about Dagestan, I think you’ll get completely immersed and be amazed by what a unique place it is. So all of this left a huge mark. Look at the terrain. It’s a coastal plain, and then the mountains rise up. For instance, take someone like Timur. When he passed through with a huge army, he stayed in the Dagestan lowlands but never went up into the mountains. Why?
Basically, of course, Islam is our primary religion, but Dagestan has actually absorbed a lot of cultures and faiths. Even our food culture, it is incredibly rich. We have European and Asian and Caucasian, our own unique cuisine. So on the people, on the people themselves, the last fifteen hundred years of history have left a huge mark. If you’re into history and you start reading about Dagestan, I think you’ll get completely immersed and be amazed by what a unique place it is. So all of this left a huge mark. Look at the terrain. It’s a coastal plain, and then the mountains rise up. For instance, take someone like Timur. When he passed through with a huge army, he stayed in the Dagestan lowlands but never went up into the mountains. Why?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Because you’ve got hundreds of thousands of troops, soldiers traveling with horses and supplies. If they had started going up into the mountains where it’s cold and there are no roads, it would have been too tough for them. So the highlanders somehow managed to stay independent. But the lowlands, the Caspian lowlands of Dagestan, they kept changing hands. Massive empires would roll in, and all of that left a mark on the people. Gate of the gates, Babul Abwab. Historians wrote about it, say, a thousand or fifteen hundred years ago, great historians from various countries. People have written so much about Dagestan. It went by different names back then, but they wrote a ton about this exact region. Many people, many empires invaded our land.
Because you’ve got hundreds of thousands of troops, soldiers traveling with horses and supplies. If they had started going up into the mountains where it’s cold and there are no roads, it would have been too tough for them. So the highlanders somehow managed to stay independent. But the lowlands, the Caspian lowlands of Dagestan, they kept changing hands. Massive empires would roll in, and all of that left a mark on the people. Gate of the gates, Babul Abwab. Historians wrote about it, say, a thousand or fifteen hundred years ago, great historians from various countries. People have written so much about Dagestan. It went by different names back then, but they wrote a ton about this exact region. Many people, many empires invaded our land.
Lex Fridman
So do you feel that inside you, in your blood, your heart, like all of this history?
So do you feel that inside you, in your blood, your heart, like all of this history?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, in the past, it’s not like I really felt it. I knew Dagestan’s history, but maybe with time, you start to see it in a whole new light. Every year, you change a bit on a mental and psychological level. Now I understand. I really do. You cannot just be born physically and mentally strong. Your environment shapes you no matter what, where you grew up, how you grew up, the conditions, and who you had around you. And after all, genetics are also a part of who you are. So when you add all this up, yeah, I just feel like all of this has come together inside me.
Well, in the past, it’s not like I really felt it. I knew Dagestan’s history, but maybe with time, you start to see it in a whole new light. Every year, you change a bit on a mental and psychological level. Now I understand. I really do. You cannot just be born physically and mentally strong. Your environment shapes you no matter what, where you grew up, how you grew up, the conditions, and who you had around you. And after all, genetics are also a part of who you are. So when you add all this up, yeah, I just feel like all of this has come together inside me.
Lex Fridman
It’s interesting because in sports, we know many of the names of the great fighters and wrestlers. Yet when it comes to war, there are so many people who fought, heroes, truly great warriors. Some we know by name, but most of them we’ll never actually know and—
It’s interesting because in sports, we know many of the names of the great fighters and wrestlers. Yet when it comes to war, there are so many people who fought, heroes, truly great warriors. Some we know by name, but most of them we’ll never actually know and—
Khabib Nurmagomedov
We’ll never know.
We’ll never know.
Lex Fridman
You write about Imam Shamil, that he’s an important figure for this region and a hero as well.
You write about Imam Shamil, that he’s an important figure for this region and a hero as well.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, Imam Shamil, he was known for resisting an empire as huge as Russia. Dagestan is so small, and he had so few people with him. How did he get famous? He got famous because he held out for a very long time. He didn’t just resist for a couple of years. He was like a regular fighter, let’s say, a soldier for ten years, and then when he became the leader, he went on for another twenty-five years. So, 35 years of his conscious life he spent fighting not just some random empire, but what was then, if not the most powerful, definitely one of the strongest empires of that era. And that is what made him famous. And so there are villages in Dagestan that deeply honor the memory of particular warriors who came from their villages, from their clan, from their ethnic group.
Well, Imam Shamil, he was known for resisting an empire as huge as Russia. Dagestan is so small, and he had so few people with him. How did he get famous? He got famous because he held out for a very long time. He didn’t just resist for a couple of years. He was like a regular fighter, let’s say, a soldier for ten years, and then when he became the leader, he went on for another twenty-five years. So, 35 years of his conscious life he spent fighting not just some random empire, but what was then, if not the most powerful, definitely one of the strongest empires of that era. And that is what made him famous. And so there are villages in Dagestan that deeply honor the memory of particular warriors who came from their villages, from their clan, from their ethnic group.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
But in, well, world history, they’re barely known. Like, take Shamil. He’s a leader, right? So everybody knows him. But there are plenty of heroes who’ve been forgotten. But yeah, their own people remember.
But in, well, world history, they’re barely known. Like, take Shamil. He’s a leader, right? So everybody knows him. But there are plenty of heroes who’ve been forgotten. But yeah, their own people remember.
Lex Fridman
Villages hold on to history. Plus, we have to admit that conditions in the mountains are incredibly harsh. That’s part of it too. Just surviving up there is a real struggle.
Villages hold on to history. Plus, we have to admit that conditions in the mountains are incredibly harsh. That’s part of it too. Just surviving up there is a real struggle.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
See, back then, people in the mountains worked all through the summer just to survive the winter, because winters are harsh, with heavy snow, completely cutting off villages. People just stay inside and try to outlast it. And in the summer, they work. Terrace farming was a huge thing for us. Our terraces are among the most, you could say, famous and ancient in the world. They’re known as the Chokh terraces. Now, those are the famous ones. But every village had terraces. There’s a place out there called Marghit, right across from our village. People worked over there, but here, in the village, is where they lived. I mean, you’d think, why didn’t they just build a village right there, in the place where we grow all our food? Because enemies could easily ride in on horseback.
See, back then, people in the mountains worked all through the summer just to survive the winter, because winters are harsh, with heavy snow, completely cutting off villages. People just stay inside and try to outlast it. And in the summer, they work. Terrace farming was a huge thing for us. Our terraces are among the most, you could say, famous and ancient in the world. They’re known as the Chokh terraces. Now, those are the famous ones. But every village had terraces. There’s a place out there called Marghit, right across from our village. People worked over there, but here, in the village, is where they lived. I mean, you’d think, why didn’t they just build a village right there, in the place where we grow all our food? Because enemies could easily ride in on horseback.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
An army could easily get to you there, so they’d build a village in rugged terrain—
An army could easily get to you there, so they’d build a village in rugged terrain—
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
…somewhere tough to invade. For instance, our village is Sildi. It’s from the word si, which is like a castle or a fortress or a tower. They built it that way so an army couldn’t reach them. You’d have to hike down one mountain and then climb up a whole different mountain. And right there, they’d plant things like grain, potatoes, basically, you know, all their food. See, if we had built over there, if we lived there and grew our crops in the same place, since it’s all terraced land, an army could just walk right up, launch raids, and so on. Back in the day, that’s how people lived. And so all of this took a toll on people, physically, psychologically, and mentally. And honestly, well, you just can’t be born in these conditions, live here, stay here, and be mentally weak.
…somewhere tough to invade. For instance, our village is Sildi. It’s from the word si, which is like a castle or a fortress or a tower. They built it that way so an army couldn’t reach them. You’d have to hike down one mountain and then climb up a whole different mountain. And right there, they’d plant things like grain, potatoes, basically, you know, all their food. See, if we had built over there, if we lived there and grew our crops in the same place, since it’s all terraced land, an army could just walk right up, launch raids, and so on. Back in the day, that’s how people lived. And so all of this took a toll on people, physically, psychologically, and mentally. And honestly, well, you just can’t be born in these conditions, live here, stay here, and be mentally weak.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You just have to be tough. There’s no other way to survive.
You just have to be tough. There’s no other way to survive.
Hard training in the mountains of Dagestan
Lex Fridman
So you just built a sports complex there. Pretty legendary, you know. Could you talk about that?
So you just built a sports complex there. Pretty legendary, you know. Could you talk about that?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, that was my father’s whole plan. He really wanted it way up in the mountains. First, it’s great for the fighters. Right now, I just flew out here to Las Vegas. We’re sitting here, like, doing this podcast together, but I came out here for Umar’s fight. And I should say, Umar did his main training there at the new base in Sildi. He spent almost a month at that place. And because it’s 1500 to 1600 meters above sea level, man, it’s tough to train there. And the thing is, when you spend about three to four weeks there, you just have more oxygen in your blood, you have more testosterone, you improve physically, you know, your stamina builds up, and so on. And this base was sort of my father’s dream. He started building it back in 2016, 2017. Money was tight back then.
Yes, that was my father’s whole plan. He really wanted it way up in the mountains. First, it’s great for the fighters. Right now, I just flew out here to Las Vegas. We’re sitting here, like, doing this podcast together, but I came out here for Umar’s fight. And I should say, Umar did his main training there at the new base in Sildi. He spent almost a month at that place. And because it’s 1500 to 1600 meters above sea level, man, it’s tough to train there. And the thing is, when you spend about three to four weeks there, you just have more oxygen in your blood, you have more testosterone, you improve physically, you know, your stamina builds up, and so on. And this base was sort of my father’s dream. He started building it back in 2016, 2017. Money was tight back then.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It was really hard, but we built it little by little. In 2020, my father passed away, but I kept the project going just a little differently, on a bigger scale. Right now, the base is open, and 100 people can be there at the same time, training, eating, sleeping. And our guys hold their training camps up there. So this was sort of my father’s dream that I have pretty much brought to life.
It was really hard, but we built it little by little. In 2020, my father passed away, but I kept the project going just a little differently, on a bigger scale. Right now, the base is open, and 100 people can be there at the same time, training, eating, sleeping. And our guys hold their training camps up there. So this was sort of my father’s dream that I have pretty much brought to life.
Lex Fridman
It’s a powerful story. To return to the place where you were born up in the mountains in order to build a sports complex where champions train. Makhachkala Gym is a great place, but the mountains are special.
It’s a powerful story. To return to the place where you were born up in the mountains in order to build a sports complex where champions train. Makhachkala Gym is a great place, but the mountains are special.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Mountains are mountains.
Mountains are mountains.
Lex Fridman
Mountains are mountains.
Mountains are mountains.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Your home village, no matter what, on some sort of deeper level, somehow gives you that, you know, like Americans love to say, positive energy. Not everything has to be done for money. And you know, you shouldn’t just look for profit in everything, let’s say financially. There are certain things that don’t bring me anything at all except for expenses, but I still do all of it because it brings me a lot of happiness and meaning. First of all, it creates a lot of jobs. People can work and earn a living. Second, it’s because my father really wanted this. Third, let’s say the guys can train and improve up there, both physically and spiritually. There are just so many benefits there.
Your home village, no matter what, on some sort of deeper level, somehow gives you that, you know, like Americans love to say, positive energy. Not everything has to be done for money. And you know, you shouldn’t just look for profit in everything, let’s say financially. There are certain things that don’t bring me anything at all except for expenses, but I still do all of it because it brings me a lot of happiness and meaning. First of all, it creates a lot of jobs. People can work and earn a living. Second, it’s because my father really wanted this. Third, let’s say the guys can train and improve up there, both physically and spiritually. There are just so many benefits there.
Lex Fridman
I don’t know if it’s okay to ask something like this, but I would dream of coming out there to Dagestan, and not just to Makhachkala, but to Sildi. Is that even possible for me?
I don’t know if it’s okay to ask something like this, but I would dream of coming out there to Dagestan, and not just to Makhachkala, but to Sildi. Is that even possible for me?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I think we could film a really good story out there. I’m not sure about a podcast, but I’m sure we could shoot a really nice vlog there.
I think we could film a really good story out there. I’m not sure about a podcast, but I’m sure we could shoot a really nice vlog there.
Lex Fridman
So can you tell me a bit about the journey from Makhachkala all the way to Sildi?
So can you tell me a bit about the journey from Makhachkala all the way to Sildi?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Four hours. Well, 3:40.
Four hours. Well, 3:40.
Lex Fridman
Through the mountains?
Through the mountains?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, 3:30, 3:40 through the mountains. The road is a real winding one, not an easy ride. If it gets to be too hard for you, we can just take a helicopter. It’s no problem at all. Like 40 to 50 minutes from Makhachkala to Sildi. Otherwise, keeping it more down to earth, we go by car, so there’s absolutely no problem.
Yeah, 3:30, 3:40 through the mountains. The road is a real winding one, not an easy ride. If it gets to be too hard for you, we can just take a helicopter. It’s no problem at all. Like 40 to 50 minutes from Makhachkala to Sildi. Otherwise, keeping it more down to earth, we go by car, so there’s absolutely no problem.
Lex Fridman
I could never get used to a wealthy life. It’s just, it’s not in my blood to be like that.
I could never get used to a wealthy life. It’s just, it’s not in my blood to be like that.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
All right, then we’ll go by car.
All right, then we’ll go by car.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, we could go on horseback, but a car is better.
Yeah, we could go on horseback, but a car is better.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
No, no, by car is better. On horseback takes way too long.
No, no, by car is better. On horseback takes way too long.
The trap of fame, money, and power
Lex Fridman
So you mentioned money, and we were just talking about comfort because right now there are so many champions. They win so much. Things are going so well. How much harder is it to stay a champion when the money and the fame start coming in, when all that stuff starts showing up?
So you mentioned money, and we were just talking about comfort because right now there are so many champions. They win so much. Things are going so well. How much harder is it to stay a champion when the money and the fame start coming in, when all that stuff starts showing up?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, those are all distracting things. When you become a champion, there’s a massive amount of attention on you. Sometimes it’s contracts, sometimes you end up having to fly a lot, you start getting busy with things, and little by little you begin to miss your workouts. You miss one, you miss two, you miss three. And all of that takes a toll, and the person who used to train with such a drive, with a hunger to be the best, as soon as they actually become the best, they just don’t know what to do next. And they live their whole life just to become stay on the top.
Well, those are all distracting things. When you become a champion, there’s a massive amount of attention on you. Sometimes it’s contracts, sometimes you end up having to fly a lot, you start getting busy with things, and little by little you begin to miss your workouts. You miss one, you miss two, you miss three. And all of that takes a toll, and the person who used to train with such a drive, with a hunger to be the best, as soon as they actually become the best, they just don’t know what to do next. And they live their whole life just to become stay on the top.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
As soon as they get there, what are they supposed to do? That’s it. They already made it. They’ve reached their goal, and there are just so many distracting factors: money, flights, you know, meetings, contracts, video shoots. There are just so many distracting factors. And so if a person doesn’t know how to handle all of this, then that person comes down from the top real fast. And I’m saying this based on my own experience, from what I’ve seen all around me with the ones who came before me. And back then when I was training with my father, his students who went on to become world champions, just how they finished their careers and so on. And it’s what I saw from my own observations of other types of sports, how they came back down, as far as I’ve learned.
As soon as they get there, what are they supposed to do? That’s it. They already made it. They’ve reached their goal, and there are just so many distracting factors: money, flights, you know, meetings, contracts, video shoots. There are just so many distracting factors. And so if a person doesn’t know how to handle all of this, then that person comes down from the top real fast. And I’m saying this based on my own experience, from what I’ve seen all around me with the ones who came before me. And back then when I was training with my father, his students who went on to become world champions, just how they finished their careers and so on. And it’s what I saw from my own observations of other types of sports, how they came back down, as far as I’ve learned.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
This is a very delicate moment. If a person climbing all the way to the top, if they can handle all of that, that already shows they have an incredibly serious mindset. Reaching the championship and staying there, reaching it is one thing, but staying a champion, that’s totally different. It’s incredibly tough.
This is a very delicate moment. If a person climbing all the way to the top, if they can handle all of that, that already shows they have an incredibly serious mindset. Reaching the championship and staying there, reaching it is one thing, but staying a champion, that’s totally different. It’s incredibly tough.
Lex Fridman
You’re saying that even on a local level, once you become a champion, that’s already the tough moment because a lot of people who start winning, like you said, they stop fighting, they quit doing MMA and switch over to fitness. They find themselves that comfort. But holding onto it is hard, even on a local level. Every single time you become more and more of a champion, you won the Sambo championship, you keep winning more and more, and every time it gets harder.
You’re saying that even on a local level, once you become a champion, that’s already the tough moment because a lot of people who start winning, like you said, they stop fighting, they quit doing MMA and switch over to fitness. They find themselves that comfort. But holding onto it is hard, even on a local level. Every single time you become more and more of a champion, you won the Sambo championship, you keep winning more and more, and every time it gets harder.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, and it depends on the person’s goals. If you want to become an amateur champion just to prove something to yourself, that’s one thing. But if you view amateur sports as a springboard to jump right into professional sports and become a champion among professionals, that’s a whole different thing. There are different paths. First, you build an amateur career just to get into the pros and go even further from there. Second, after you’ve made it into the pros, you become a champion. And third, after you become a champion, you have to stay there. Not everyone has what it takes. It is incredibly tough. If you look at the numbers, you can literally count these champions on one hand. How many of them are there? Maybe 15, 20, 30 people?
Yes, and it depends on the person’s goals. If you want to become an amateur champion just to prove something to yourself, that’s one thing. But if you view amateur sports as a springboard to jump right into professional sports and become a champion among professionals, that’s a whole different thing. There are different paths. First, you build an amateur career just to get into the pros and go even further from there. Second, after you’ve made it into the pros, you become a champion. And third, after you become a champion, you have to stay there. Not everyone has what it takes. It is incredibly tough. If you look at the numbers, you can literally count these champions on one hand. How many of them are there? Maybe 15, 20, 30 people?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Let’s say 50 over the last 30 years, and how many have tried? For example, 50 achieved it over 30 years, over 35 years of MMA combat sports. But how many tried? Hundreds of thousands. And look at that number. Such a tiny amount actually reached the end goal. So for you to actually make it into this tiny list, you really have to be like just a truly unique person and a fighter and, you know, a student, and a person who can accept guidance from a coach who, when they are being guided, discard the cons and take only the pros. But there are people who take criticism very hard and very negatively, and are very sensitive, let’s say, when they take criticism-
Let’s say 50 over the last 30 years, and how many have tried? For example, 50 achieved it over 30 years, over 35 years of MMA combat sports. But how many tried? Hundreds of thousands. And look at that number. Such a tiny amount actually reached the end goal. So for you to actually make it into this tiny list, you really have to be like just a truly unique person and a fighter and, you know, a student, and a person who can accept guidance from a coach who, when they are being guided, discard the cons and take only the pros. But there are people who take criticism very hard and very negatively, and are very sensitive, let’s say, when they take criticism-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
… from a mentor. So it all has to click, and some accept criticism at the very beginning, but then once they become champions, it’s hard for them to take it.
… from a mentor. So it all has to click, and some accept criticism at the very beginning, but then once they become champions, it’s hard for them to take it.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It happens differently. A man sometimes doesn’t even know what he is capable of. Sometimes he just can’t really understand himself until he achieves success or becomes famous, wealthy, and powerful. That is exactly when he discovers his true qualities. When he is limited in something, in money, in power, in everything that success eventually brings him, he doesn’t really know how he’s going to act in this new role, doesn’t know how he’ll behave once he becomes big, famous, and a champion. Nobody knows. Some people say and wish, “Oh, if only I’d made it like that, I would do things this way.” I think it’s better if people don’t throw around such big words because you never know how you’ll carry yourself once you actually get there.
It happens differently. A man sometimes doesn’t even know what he is capable of. Sometimes he just can’t really understand himself until he achieves success or becomes famous, wealthy, and powerful. That is exactly when he discovers his true qualities. When he is limited in something, in money, in power, in everything that success eventually brings him, he doesn’t really know how he’s going to act in this new role, doesn’t know how he’ll behave once he becomes big, famous, and a champion. Nobody knows. Some people say and wish, “Oh, if only I’d made it like that, I would do things this way.” I think it’s better if people don’t throw around such big words because you never know how you’ll carry yourself once you actually get there.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You know, it’s such a delicate thing, getting up there and still remaining human.
You know, it’s such a delicate thing, getting up there and still remaining human.
Lex Fridman
When it comes to you, I see that everyone here just loves you. Even early on in your career, millions of people loved you. That is also a tough thing to deal with because maybe you start believing it. And you can lose yourself in all of it. So is it all in the mind? I mean, what actually goes on in a champion’s head? In yours when you sat alone thinking about your life, “Who am I really, and what do I do to keep being a champion or to become one?”
When it comes to you, I see that everyone here just loves you. Even early on in your career, millions of people loved you. That is also a tough thing to deal with because maybe you start believing it. And you can lose yourself in all of it. So is it all in the mind? I mean, what actually goes on in a champion’s head? In yours when you sat alone thinking about your life, “Who am I really, and what do I do to keep being a champion or to become one?”
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, first of all, from the very beginning, if you realize that what you’re chasing isn’t the most important thing in life, then it gets easier for you. And then, you know, there are some people whose, let’s say, ultimate goal is to be successful, powerful, and to make it big. At the end of the day, after all, we are not really such big, important people. And, like, I believe it’s wrong to just crown yourself king because, to put it bluntly, if we’re being honest here, we can’t even control the basic need to go to the restroom. Maybe to some… Yeah. To some people this will probably seem a bit crude, but we all go to the restroom, excuse my language. If we can’t control even this, so what can we actually control in this life?
Well, first of all, from the very beginning, if you realize that what you’re chasing isn’t the most important thing in life, then it gets easier for you. And then, you know, there are some people whose, let’s say, ultimate goal is to be successful, powerful, and to make it big. At the end of the day, after all, we are not really such big, important people. And, like, I believe it’s wrong to just crown yourself king because, to put it bluntly, if we’re being honest here, we can’t even control the basic need to go to the restroom. Maybe to some… Yeah. To some people this will probably seem a bit crude, but we all go to the restroom, excuse my language. If we can’t control even this, so what can we actually control in this life?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Look how many people we know, how many great people have left this earth. It doesn’t really matter how, like, big, strong, or famous you are, how wealthy you are, champion or no champion. Either way, they put us all in the exact same grave, you know, two meters down or, like, a meter or a meter and a half. Different confessions, different religions, they bury people in different ways. So I actually believe that every single person should have this realization that we are just not some kind of big, important people here who just decide and get to control everything. We don’t get to do that. In my case, I was raised under the guidance of my father. My father was a coach, and my goal was always to become…
Look how many people we know, how many great people have left this earth. It doesn’t really matter how, like, big, strong, or famous you are, how wealthy you are, champion or no champion. Either way, they put us all in the exact same grave, you know, two meters down or, like, a meter or a meter and a half. Different confessions, different religions, they bury people in different ways. So I actually believe that every single person should have this realization that we are just not some kind of big, important people here who just decide and get to control everything. We don’t get to do that. In my case, I was raised under the guidance of my father. My father was a coach, and my goal was always to become…
Khabib Nurmagomedov
To prove to my father that out of everyone, even though he trains many other people, he trains everyone, I mean, I’m also here. I can show him. He doesn’t have to look very far. I’m right there, and under his guidance, I can become a champion. I looked up to him and followed his example, trained hard, and it was like, you know, a kind of a challenge to prove to him that, “Look, I am right here, Father, and everything you teach, I will take it all in zealously, worthily. I’ll follow your program, do it right, and I will become a champion.” And that was exactly the kind of goal I had, to prove it first and foremost to my father and secondly to the entire world that I can become the best wrestler or fighter. But I never thought of being crowned king after I became a champion.
To prove to my father that out of everyone, even though he trains many other people, he trains everyone, I mean, I’m also here. I can show him. He doesn’t have to look very far. I’m right there, and under his guidance, I can become a champion. I looked up to him and followed his example, trained hard, and it was like, you know, a kind of a challenge to prove to him that, “Look, I am right here, Father, and everything you teach, I will take it all in zealously, worthily. I’ll follow your program, do it right, and I will become a champion.” And that was exactly the kind of goal I had, to prove it first and foremost to my father and secondly to the entire world that I can become the best wrestler or fighter. But I never thought of being crowned king after I became a champion.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I was never going to walk around like, “Look how cool I am.” That was never in my head, and I’m really glad that the Almighty protected me from all of that because many people end up in a bad place if they act like that.
I was never going to walk around like, “Look how cool I am.” That was never in my head, and I’m really glad that the Almighty protected me from all of that because many people end up in a bad place if they act like that.
Lex Fridman
This is a profound wisdom, not thinking about being crowned. But even if you don’t, a fire should burn within you, driving you to become a champion, right? As you said, hundreds of thousands, millions of people want to be a champion, but only one can be.
This is a profound wisdom, not thinking about being crowned. But even if you don’t, a fire should burn within you, driving you to become a champion, right? As you said, hundreds of thousands, millions of people want to be a champion, but only one can be.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, but that is actually about you confronting your opponent. You’ve got to put a barrier inside your mind where on one side you’re a humble person, but on the other side you’re different because you have a goal, your goal. Of course, you should still follow a code of honor. You should be a man, a righteous man, and know what you can and cannot do. You should always do that. But in the end, your opponent is the person who wants to stop your dream. So here the boundaries expand just a little bit. Right here, you’re already not playing humble. Right here, you just step out and you want to clear your opponent out of your way, and that’s it, because your goal is to be the best in the world and they are blocking you. Excuse me, but in this situation, there’s no way you can act all humble.
Yeah, but that is actually about you confronting your opponent. You’ve got to put a barrier inside your mind where on one side you’re a humble person, but on the other side you’re different because you have a goal, your goal. Of course, you should still follow a code of honor. You should be a man, a righteous man, and know what you can and cannot do. You should always do that. But in the end, your opponent is the person who wants to stop your dream. So here the boundaries expand just a little bit. Right here, you’re already not playing humble. Right here, you just step out and you want to clear your opponent out of your way, and that’s it, because your goal is to be the best in the world and they are blocking you. Excuse me, but in this situation, there’s no way you can act all humble.
The key to Khabib’s dominance
Lex Fridman
Okay. But when you were training in the gym, what was it that gave you this strength? A hatred of losing or a love for winning?
Okay. But when you were training in the gym, what was it that gave you this strength? A hatred of losing or a love for winning?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I think it was the hatred of losing. Yes, definitely. I mean, you know, of course you want to win, but for me there was always this driver like, “No way. I am not losing,” you know. When they would give me a fight, I always tell this to my guys, whenever they would give me a fight on a professional level, 100 days before it I was… How do you say it? Addiction. I was fixated like when people have this addiction. But for me it was commitment, that I absolutely had to prepare perfectly for the fight. I couldn’t miss any training sessions. I would literally have, like, this panic. Like, for example, I’d fly somewhere and I have, let’s say, eighty-five days left until the fight.
I think it was the hatred of losing. Yes, definitely. I mean, you know, of course you want to win, but for me there was always this driver like, “No way. I am not losing,” you know. When they would give me a fight, I always tell this to my guys, whenever they would give me a fight on a professional level, 100 days before it I was… How do you say it? Addiction. I was fixated like when people have this addiction. But for me it was commitment, that I absolutely had to prepare perfectly for the fight. I couldn’t miss any training sessions. I would literally have, like, this panic. Like, for example, I’d fly somewhere and I have, let’s say, eighty-five days left until the fight.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Like, I knew that I had to fly. For example, if I was flying to Moscow, I would always pick a ticket so I could absolutely do my morning training session first. Then I’d take off around lunchtime. And once I arrived in Moscow, for whatever reason, I had to fit it all around my training schedule. Either I had to meet up before my training sessions or I had to meet up after my training sessions. And I simply could not miss that evening training session because I had to train during the day from four to five hours, two in the morning and two to two and a half in the evening. And I needed to prepare myself that way. Looking at who was in Moscow right then, wondering who I could, like pull into a training session there.
Like, I knew that I had to fly. For example, if I was flying to Moscow, I would always pick a ticket so I could absolutely do my morning training session first. Then I’d take off around lunchtime. And once I arrived in Moscow, for whatever reason, I had to fit it all around my training schedule. Either I had to meet up before my training sessions or I had to meet up after my training sessions. And I simply could not miss that evening training session because I had to train during the day from four to five hours, two in the morning and two to two and a half in the evening. And I needed to prepare myself that way. Looking at who was in Moscow right then, wondering who I could, like pull into a training session there.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, they also had to– the person had to match my level as well. Not just like I showed up there, you know, played around with him. I needed a fight back. I would arrange in advance who was gonna come. Maybe some sparring, maybe I’d do wrestling, maybe I’d hit the weights, maybe a striking workout. So I had this, let’s say I always had this tough and scientific approach to it. So I believe that more than anything, I didn’t want to lose rather than I wanted to win, you know? Of course, winning is also a huge pleasure, but more than anything, I just didn’t want to lose.
Well, they also had to– the person had to match my level as well. Not just like I showed up there, you know, played around with him. I needed a fight back. I would arrange in advance who was gonna come. Maybe some sparring, maybe I’d do wrestling, maybe I’d hit the weights, maybe a striking workout. So I had this, let’s say I always had this tough and scientific approach to it. So I believe that more than anything, I didn’t want to lose rather than I wanted to win, you know? Of course, winning is also a huge pleasure, but more than anything, I just didn’t want to lose.
Lex Fridman
So in all those hard training sessions, you were thinking about not losing. That’s the fuel.
So in all those hard training sessions, you were thinking about not losing. That’s the fuel.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
The fuel.
The fuel.
Lex Fridman
Four to five hours every single day.
Four to five hours every single day.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Every day.
Every day.
Lex Fridman
There is a story that I heard. Sadulaev, the legendary wrestler, told a story that he went to a hotel, I think it was in Moscow, to train in the gym, and he was the only– It was during the night, I don’t know. He was the only one who was there. And you came down- … And you actually trained together. And he said a lot of great things about you. He said that you gave him some really deep wisdom, which helped him to win the gold medal at the Olympic Games. I’m curious, could you tell us now what you told him? What kind of wisdom did you give him?
There is a story that I heard. Sadulaev, the legendary wrestler, told a story that he went to a hotel, I think it was in Moscow, to train in the gym, and he was the only– It was during the night, I don’t know. He was the only one who was there. And you came down- … And you actually trained together. And he said a lot of great things about you. He said that you gave him some really deep wisdom, which helped him to win the gold medal at the Olympic Games. I’m curious, could you tell us now what you told him? What kind of wisdom did you give him?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I can’t remember exactly, but we had really great conversations.
I can’t remember exactly, but we had really great conversations.
Lex Fridman
It’s a great story that the two of you, like two legends like that, just met completely by chance.
It’s a great story that the two of you, like two legends like that, just met completely by chance.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, look, he’s a two-time Olympic champion, right?
Well, look, he’s a two-time Olympic champion, right?
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I think he doesn’t skip his training either. He never missed one back then. I believe that we both ended up there because we both, you know, hate to lose, and we both really want to win. And, you know, recently I came across this idea. There are athletes who simply want to win, and then there are some for whom victory isn’t enough. They want domination. I believe that he is one of those as well. They want domination. And for that, what does a person have to do? They have to train. They have to grind morning and night. And there was this thing with us. After the morning, my father never let us sleep. When I say the morning, I mean after Fajr, the dawn prayer. He just wouldn’t sleep himself, so we couldn’t either. So every morning, six, seven, we’d be out doing our warm-up.
I think he doesn’t skip his training either. He never missed one back then. I believe that we both ended up there because we both, you know, hate to lose, and we both really want to win. And, you know, recently I came across this idea. There are athletes who simply want to win, and then there are some for whom victory isn’t enough. They want domination. I believe that he is one of those as well. They want domination. And for that, what does a person have to do? They have to train. They have to grind morning and night. And there was this thing with us. After the morning, my father never let us sleep. When I say the morning, I mean after Fajr, the dawn prayer. He just wouldn’t sleep himself, so we couldn’t either. So every morning, six, seven, we’d be out doing our warm-up.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Some people might call it a warm-up, but when you show up at the stadium in the morning, you run five kilometers, you do sprints, you work with resistance bands, you work on the pull-up bar, you do push-ups, dips, jumps, you know the bands then work with a partner, drilling and so on. That’s about two hours of work. You drop two, two and a half kilos there. Not really a warm-up, but Father always called it that, right? That was a full morning training at seven AM. Then I came home to rest, and at four o’clock, we’d head to the gym. The training would start at five o’clock and end at seven. By eight, I’d be home, and by eleven, I’d rest up. And yet I kept thinking that something was missing.
Some people might call it a warm-up, but when you show up at the stadium in the morning, you run five kilometers, you do sprints, you work with resistance bands, you work on the pull-up bar, you do push-ups, dips, jumps, you know the bands then work with a partner, drilling and so on. That’s about two hours of work. You drop two, two and a half kilos there. Not really a warm-up, but Father always called it that, right? That was a full morning training at seven AM. Then I came home to rest, and at four o’clock, we’d head to the gym. The training would start at five o’clock and end at seven. By eight, I’d be home, and by eleven, I’d rest up. And yet I kept thinking that something was missing.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Like, I know that I have a start, a competition coming up in like forty or thirty days, and I would wake up and I’d be like, “Let me go to the sea. I’m gonna go down to the sea, do some running, some sprints on the sand, work out, and so on.” And so many times, I ended up going out for a third training session as well. Sometimes Father would say, “Rest. In the morning, we’re gonna have a heavy workload.” But sometimes I wouldn’t tell Father. I’d just go out at night, head out, and train. At night when everyone’s asleep, when nobody’s around, I’d grab one of my close friends, give them a call, have them pick me up, then hop in the car and head to the sea. I’d train for an hour or an hour and a half, come back, and crash. Next morning, I’d get up and start all over again.
Like, I know that I have a start, a competition coming up in like forty or thirty days, and I would wake up and I’d be like, “Let me go to the sea. I’m gonna go down to the sea, do some running, some sprints on the sand, work out, and so on.” And so many times, I ended up going out for a third training session as well. Sometimes Father would say, “Rest. In the morning, we’re gonna have a heavy workload.” But sometimes I wouldn’t tell Father. I’d just go out at night, head out, and train. At night when everyone’s asleep, when nobody’s around, I’d grab one of my close friends, give them a call, have them pick me up, then hop in the car and head to the sea. I’d train for an hour or an hour and a half, come back, and crash. Next morning, I’d get up and start all over again.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And just this routine, nonstop. And when I see guys, you know, when they do just one training session or like they say, “On Wednesday, we have a morning training, then an evening sauna session.” What do you mean? You have to fight in fifty days. You have a huge fight ahead and you want to take a rest in the middle of the week? Well, rest on Sunday. On Saturday, do a morning training, hit the sauna in the evening, take a complete rest on Sunday, and start all over again on Monday. That was just my approach. Everyone does it differently. I don’t know. I just think it has to be in your head. You’ve got to want it incredibly badly.
And just this routine, nonstop. And when I see guys, you know, when they do just one training session or like they say, “On Wednesday, we have a morning training, then an evening sauna session.” What do you mean? You have to fight in fifty days. You have a huge fight ahead and you want to take a rest in the middle of the week? Well, rest on Sunday. On Saturday, do a morning training, hit the sauna in the evening, take a complete rest on Sunday, and start all over again on Monday. That was just my approach. Everyone does it differently. I don’t know. I just think it has to be in your head. You’ve got to want it incredibly badly.
Lex Fridman
So you believe that to be a champion, you have to train like that, you have to be that serious for the majority of people?
So you believe that to be a champion, you have to train like that, you have to be that serious for the majority of people?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Let’s say I believe that to be at the top, the top tier, right? One of the best in the world. A person has to always be, you know, a little bit, let’s say just a little bit crazy, but in a good sense of the word. You have to be addicted to it and to want this incredibly bad. You have to take a fanatical approach to the training process. Just showing up and working out, that’s what hundreds of thousands of guys are doing around the world. To stand out from that, from this crowd, let’s say, who have the exact same goals as you do, to stand out from that, you have to take a fanatical approach to it.
Let’s say I believe that to be at the top, the top tier, right? One of the best in the world. A person has to always be, you know, a little bit, let’s say just a little bit crazy, but in a good sense of the word. You have to be addicted to it and to want this incredibly bad. You have to take a fanatical approach to the training process. Just showing up and working out, that’s what hundreds of thousands of guys are doing around the world. To stand out from that, from this crowd, let’s say, who have the exact same goals as you do, to stand out from that, you have to take a fanatical approach to it.
Lex Fridman
Well, look, I’m training with John Danaher. And they train like that too. They train three times a day. And it actually feels right this way. I mean, of course, this is how you have to train.
Well, look, I’m training with John Danaher. And they train like that too. They train three times a day. And it actually feels right this way. I mean, of course, this is how you have to train.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
‘Cause of that, John has one of the best-
‘Cause of that, John has one of the best-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, he makes champions.
Yeah, he makes champions.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
… students in the world, and after all, they don’t just take some random place. I mean, they’re not somewhere in the middle. They’re at the top, and look at their whole approach. Some people… Look, a person with that kind of approach just can’t be somewhere in the middle. It’s impossible. If you have a fanatical attitude, the right attitude toward the training process, on top of that, you have to be fanatical about it. You love what you do, and in the end, there will be results. Well, just look at John and look where his guys are. He creates champions. He finds a champion in everyone, across every category, right?
… students in the world, and after all, they don’t just take some random place. I mean, they’re not somewhere in the middle. They’re at the top, and look at their whole approach. Some people… Look, a person with that kind of approach just can’t be somewhere in the middle. It’s impossible. If you have a fanatical attitude, the right attitude toward the training process, on top of that, you have to be fanatical about it. You love what you do, and in the end, there will be results. Well, just look at John and look where his guys are. He creates champions. He finds a champion in everyone, across every category, right?
Lex Fridman
He makes, he creates champions, not just one or two, but all of them. He finds a champion in everyone, across every category.
He makes, he creates champions, not just one or two, but all of them. He finds a champion in everyone, across every category.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Look, the people who come to him, he has a system, let’s say, right? Under this roof, under his roof, there is a system. People come here, and they become champions in this system. So there are people there who are champions. These are specific established names. And there are other people who came and left. They entered that black room, so to say, an uncomfortable place. They went in, stood for a year, a year and a half or two, and left. Nobody talks about them. These are the people who came in, broke mentally, and left, and there aren’t just a few of them. There are a lot. Usually, most people give up. There are many who give up, but then there are the ones who come in and stay there for a long time. Long, long time. And after some time, they achieve success. They become the best.
Look, the people who come to him, he has a system, let’s say, right? Under this roof, under his roof, there is a system. People come here, and they become champions in this system. So there are people there who are champions. These are specific established names. And there are other people who came and left. They entered that black room, so to say, an uncomfortable place. They went in, stood for a year, a year and a half or two, and left. Nobody talks about them. These are the people who came in, broke mentally, and left, and there aren’t just a few of them. There are a lot. Usually, most people give up. There are many who give up, but then there are the ones who come in and stay there for a long time. Long, long time. And after some time, they achieve success. They become the best.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
They prove to themselves that once they enter the system, they could stay there for a long time, endure, and become the best. They prove that they are already capable of many things. They can be trusted to supervise big, important projects. I would even say, for example, 2,000 years ago, they could easily rule entire cities. So a person who has gone through it physically, who has lived through it, who has faced challenges, passed the tests, they are capable of a lot, highly capable. You don’t just walk into martial arts and become the best. It’s very difficult. It means that you go through pain, you make sacrifices, you give your time, you face setbacks and failures in training. The mental strength and capacity mean a lot there.
They prove to themselves that once they enter the system, they could stay there for a long time, endure, and become the best. They prove that they are already capable of many things. They can be trusted to supervise big, important projects. I would even say, for example, 2,000 years ago, they could easily rule entire cities. So a person who has gone through it physically, who has lived through it, who has faced challenges, passed the tests, they are capable of a lot, highly capable. You don’t just walk into martial arts and become the best. It’s very difficult. It means that you go through pain, you make sacrifices, you give your time, you face setbacks and failures in training. The mental strength and capacity mean a lot there.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And when I talk about his system, look, I mean those schools that became the best, let’s say, in football or in freestyle wrestling or, let’s say, in MMA, in grappling, or in judo. It’s really hard to enter one of the best schools in the world, to stay when they are breaking you, throwing you, choking you, to improve as a person and as an athlete, and to become a champion. It takes at least 12 years, 10 to 12 years, maybe 15. For some, it took longer. And to get through the grind for these 15 years and then to break through and become the best is worth a lot.
And when I talk about his system, look, I mean those schools that became the best, let’s say, in football or in freestyle wrestling or, let’s say, in MMA, in grappling, or in judo. It’s really hard to enter one of the best schools in the world, to stay when they are breaking you, throwing you, choking you, to improve as a person and as an athlete, and to become a champion. It takes at least 12 years, 10 to 12 years, maybe 15. For some, it took longer. And to get through the grind for these 15 years and then to break through and become the best is worth a lot.
Discipline and hard work
Lex Fridman
Have you had those tough moments where you’re almost broken psychologically? You know, just sitting there, finding it hard to breathe, and everything is going wrong, lost in some situations. And when you were young, was there ever a moment like that? ‘Cause the guys from Dagestan on the team, really great guys, by the way, all say they’ve never seen you broken in training, not even losing really. But when you were young, did it ever happen?
Have you had those tough moments where you’re almost broken psychologically? You know, just sitting there, finding it hard to breathe, and everything is going wrong, lost in some situations. And when you were young, was there ever a moment like that? ‘Cause the guys from Dagestan on the team, really great guys, by the way, all say they’ve never seen you broken in training, not even losing really. But when you were young, did it ever happen?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Look, I’ve been in this grind since I was a kid. Wherever my father coached, there were always… Let’s take the year 2004, for example. My father put together the Dagestan national team for combat sambo and in mixed martial arts, which was called no-holds-barred fighting. There were training camps, too. I was 15. It was the winter of 2004, and I was the youngest guy there. The others were, let’s say, between 22 and 30, all active world champions. At that time, I was, like, 14, 15 years old. I wrestled with them, grappled, was in this uncomfortable environment for myself, where we always had the rule that the youngest has to do everything, and he is always wrong, and I had to deal with that.
Look, I’ve been in this grind since I was a kid. Wherever my father coached, there were always… Let’s take the year 2004, for example. My father put together the Dagestan national team for combat sambo and in mixed martial arts, which was called no-holds-barred fighting. There were training camps, too. I was 15. It was the winter of 2004, and I was the youngest guy there. The others were, let’s say, between 22 and 30, all active world champions. At that time, I was, like, 14, 15 years old. I wrestled with them, grappled, was in this uncomfortable environment for myself, where we always had the rule that the youngest has to do everything, and he is always wrong, and I had to deal with that.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Especially in the gym, they throw you, hit you again and again. You have to show up morning and evening, day after day. This place hardens you. They say, “How the Steel Was Tempered.” Steel isn’t tempered for nothing. How many times do you have to strike the steel before it becomes a sword? That doesn’t just happen by itself.
Especially in the gym, they throw you, hit you again and again. You have to show up morning and evening, day after day. This place hardens you. They say, “How the Steel Was Tempered.” Steel isn’t tempered for nothing. How many times do you have to strike the steel before it becomes a sword? That doesn’t just happen by itself.
Lex Fridman
Did you believe in yourself then?
Did you believe in yourself then?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Some of the guys who were at those camps back then, they’re grown men now. Even then, they were older than me by 10, 12, maybe 15 years. And they always used to say, “Khabib, we honestly thought you were going to become some kind of scholar or scientist.” Because my father was always making me read and write, read and write. I would copy out entire books by hand. There was always this control. It wasn’t like he’d say, “Khabib, go do this”, and you could just walk away and not do it. When he said, “Go do it”, you did it. My father never forgot anything. He had a phenomenal memory. He’d be like, “Did you do it?” And everything he told you, he remembered. He just did.
Some of the guys who were at those camps back then, they’re grown men now. Even then, they were older than me by 10, 12, maybe 15 years. And they always used to say, “Khabib, we honestly thought you were going to become some kind of scholar or scientist.” Because my father was always making me read and write, read and write. I would copy out entire books by hand. There was always this control. It wasn’t like he’d say, “Khabib, go do this”, and you could just walk away and not do it. When he said, “Go do it”, you did it. My father never forgot anything. He had a phenomenal memory. He’d be like, “Did you do it?” And everything he told you, he remembered. He just did.
Lex Fridman
He checked you.
He checked you.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He was like, “Come here.” And he’d check. I knew it wasn’t something I could get away with. So, you know, since childhood, I was lucky that my father always kept me close, and I found myself in this environment among fighters who at that time- … were, I don’t know, they just didn’t compete in America and Europe back then. But in the post-Soviet space, they were the best at that time. And it helped me a lot to become mentally strong.
He was like, “Come here.” And he’d check. I knew it wasn’t something I could get away with. So, you know, since childhood, I was lucky that my father always kept me close, and I found myself in this environment among fighters who at that time- … were, I don’t know, they just didn’t compete in America and Europe back then. But in the post-Soviet space, they were the best at that time. And it helped me a lot to become mentally strong.
Lex Fridman
Tell me more about your father. You’ve read a lot. You didn’t just fight. You were well-rounded and you told several stories about this. There was a book, what is it called? “Countries and Peoples.”
Tell me more about your father. You’ve read a lot. You didn’t just fight. You were well-rounded and you told several stories about this. There was a book, what is it called? “Countries and Peoples.”
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, from my childhood.
Yes, from my childhood.
Lex Fridman
It is, really.
It is, really.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And it went on-
And it went on-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
The approach was the same.
The approach was the same.
Lex Fridman
Tell that story because I think it’s important for the parents listening to us to understand this. You’re not just trying to create a champion. You’re trying to raise a well-rounded person, a wise person, a person with depth.
Tell that story because I think it’s important for the parents listening to us to understand this. You’re not just trying to create a champion. You’re trying to raise a well-rounded person, a wise person, a person with depth.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, you have to give the right motivation to kids with proper communication. My father was very good at this. I now realize interacting with my own kids how wise he was and how deeply he understood this. Because when a child is eight, 10 years old, and when they are just beginning to form as a person, it is important to have the right approach. I now understand how farsighted my father’s approach was.
Yes, you have to give the right motivation to kids with proper communication. My father was very good at this. I now realize interacting with my own kids how wise he was and how deeply he understood this. Because when a child is eight, 10 years old, and when they are just beginning to form as a person, it is important to have the right approach. I now understand how farsighted my father’s approach was.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
First, he tried not to give me anything for free. Only sometimes I could get something for free. For example, before a holiday, like Eid al-Fitr or before school started, Father would give money. I’d go buy clothes at the market for back to school, that kind of thing, you know? And at other times, he always told me, “Well, if you want it, you need to earn it. You want me to give you money just like that?” There would be some work around the house and so on that I had to do. And I knew that encouragement would always be there. My father always had this kind of approach. He set a very strong personal example, very strong, and I really learnt a lot from him. Took a lot. And then, as you mentioned, there was the book, Countries and Peoples. Someone gave it to him as a gift.
First, he tried not to give me anything for free. Only sometimes I could get something for free. For example, before a holiday, like Eid al-Fitr or before school started, Father would give money. I’d go buy clothes at the market for back to school, that kind of thing, you know? And at other times, he always told me, “Well, if you want it, you need to earn it. You want me to give you money just like that?” There would be some work around the house and so on that I had to do. And I knew that encouragement would always be there. My father always had this kind of approach. He set a very strong personal example, very strong, and I really learnt a lot from him. Took a lot. And then, as you mentioned, there was the book, Countries and Peoples. Someone gave it to him as a gift.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
My father read through it, and he realized that it was perfect for me, for a child who was 10, 11, maybe 12 at the time. That book was part of my life for about two or three years, something like that.
My father read through it, and he realized that it was perfect for me, for a child who was 10, 11, maybe 12 at the time. That book was part of my life for about two or three years, something like that.
Lex Fridman
It was about 193 countries. The geography, history, all the details.
It was about 193 countries. The geography, history, all the details.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
For each country, it describes its geographical location, which countries it bordered, its major rivers, mountains, cities, history, economy, finances. Just brief information about every country. My father said, “You’ll tell me about each country, and I’ll give you money for it.” And I thought, “All right.” I knew this was like my own little capital just sitting there waiting for me. All I had to do was come, take that book, read it, understand it. Then my father would take the book and say, “Now, tell me what you read.” And he would check. He would look through it. The countries were arranged alphabetically. A for Andorra, Angola, and so on. B for Belgium, Brazil, and so on. Everything went in alphabetical order. I started from A and read them all straight to the very end.
For each country, it describes its geographical location, which countries it bordered, its major rivers, mountains, cities, history, economy, finances. Just brief information about every country. My father said, “You’ll tell me about each country, and I’ll give you money for it.” And I thought, “All right.” I knew this was like my own little capital just sitting there waiting for me. All I had to do was come, take that book, read it, understand it. Then my father would take the book and say, “Now, tell me what you read.” And he would check. He would look through it. The countries were arranged alphabetically. A for Andorra, Angola, and so on. B for Belgium, Brazil, and so on. Everything went in alphabetical order. I started from A and read them all straight to the very end.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Like every single time when I needed the money, I did that. And for example, I go over the first 40 countries, he’d check a box, and then I continued. That’s how my father would test me. Let’s just say that my knowledge of geography comes from back then.
Like every single time when I needed the money, I did that. And for example, I go over the first 40 countries, he’d check a box, and then I continued. That’s how my father would test me. Let’s just say that my knowledge of geography comes from back then.
Lex Fridman
Did you realize how big the world was?
Did you realize how big the world was?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
No.
No.
Lex Fridman
As a child, you don’t understand?
As a child, you don’t understand?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
At that time, I didn’t understand. But since then, I’ve had this desire to travel. I really wanted to travel, visit different countries, see wonders of the world, the Colosseum, the pyramids. But all of this is from childhood, from what I read and wrote. It wasn’t just about reading. I also had to rewrite it. I had to write it down. I always wrote down what I read. And actually, this is very good advice for parents, you know. They can use this with their children too. They can tell them to sit down and copy books by hand. First of all, eyesight improves. Reading improves. Writing, how you write improves. Your handwriting. And it stays with you when you read and write. It really develops a child. Not only I believe that, I actually do advise parents to motivate their kids this way.
At that time, I didn’t understand. But since then, I’ve had this desire to travel. I really wanted to travel, visit different countries, see wonders of the world, the Colosseum, the pyramids. But all of this is from childhood, from what I read and wrote. It wasn’t just about reading. I also had to rewrite it. I had to write it down. I always wrote down what I read. And actually, this is very good advice for parents, you know. They can use this with their children too. They can tell them to sit down and copy books by hand. First of all, eyesight improves. Reading improves. Writing, how you write improves. Your handwriting. And it stays with you when you read and write. It really develops a child. Not only I believe that, I actually do advise parents to motivate their kids this way.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You can simply create some kind of challenge that children benefit from and reward them for it after it is done. This really helps develop a child’s mind.
You can simply create some kind of challenge that children benefit from and reward them for it after it is done. This really helps develop a child’s mind.
Lex Fridman
I actually saw advice from the great writers who said that they remembered doing the same thing when they were young. When they first started writing, they just simply copied other legendary writers. You read their work and then you type it out yourself, and you start absorbing that style into your bloodstream.
I actually saw advice from the great writers who said that they remembered doing the same thing when they were young. When they first started writing, they just simply copied other legendary writers. You read their work and then you type it out yourself, and you start absorbing that style into your bloodstream.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, it needs to be done in childhood.
Well, it needs to be done in childhood.
Lex Fridman
Sure.
Sure.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
When the child is ready to learn and his mind is open, let’s say as a metaphor, when his table is clean, not occupied with clutter, then as a father, you can help them place all the right things on the table in their proper place. Let’s say put the food in one place, flowers in another, something like that. It is important. That’s why I believe I was very lucky. My father did the right thing. He provided me with the right kind of information, and I learned a lot just from being around him. I learned so much just from his presence. He was there at home, and then we also went to competitions. He was always there at trainings and at camps, so I absorbed a lot from him, and it was interesting for me too.
When the child is ready to learn and his mind is open, let’s say as a metaphor, when his table is clean, not occupied with clutter, then as a father, you can help them place all the right things on the table in their proper place. Let’s say put the food in one place, flowers in another, something like that. It is important. That’s why I believe I was very lucky. My father did the right thing. He provided me with the right kind of information, and I learned a lot just from being around him. I learned so much just from his presence. He was there at home, and then we also went to competitions. He was always there at trainings and at camps, so I absorbed a lot from him, and it was interesting for me too.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Of course, when you’re a teenager, sometimes you’re tired, sometimes you want to break free. All of that was there. But my father had the right approach. He influenced me a lot and in the right way.
Of course, when you’re a teenager, sometimes you’re tired, sometimes you want to break free. All of that was there. But my father had the right approach. He influenced me a lot and in the right way.
Lex Fridman
And there’s the physical component too of hard work. There’s a story you told about the time he made you dig a big hole just because it was difficult. There’s wisdom in that. That you just need to work. You need to stay busy all the time.
And there’s the physical component too of hard work. There’s a story you told about the time he made you dig a big hole just because it was difficult. There’s wisdom in that. That you just need to work. You need to stay busy all the time.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
These were training camps from two thousand and five to two thousand and seven. In the summer, we went to the mountains. There was a children’s camp there, an old Soviet-style pioneer camp where we stayed doing our runs in the forest. Together, we built a small training area there with a rope, a punching bag, a pull-up bar. We did sprints there. We pulled resistance bands. After running in the mountains, we would come back and work there. There were almost no mats. We built the base ourselves. It had a dining room on the first floor and an attic space where we slept. We would come downstairs, eat, go outside, train in that little sports area, then run in the forest. It was somewhere around twelve hundred meters above sea level, a conifer forest. We spent the whole summer there.
These were training camps from two thousand and five to two thousand and seven. In the summer, we went to the mountains. There was a children’s camp there, an old Soviet-style pioneer camp where we stayed doing our runs in the forest. Together, we built a small training area there with a rope, a punching bag, a pull-up bar. We did sprints there. We pulled resistance bands. After running in the mountains, we would come back and work there. There were almost no mats. We built the base ourselves. It had a dining room on the first floor and an attic space where we slept. We would come downstairs, eat, go outside, train in that little sports area, then run in the forest. It was somewhere around twelve hundred meters above sea level, a conifer forest. We spent the whole summer there.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
There we’d train in the morning, then there was nothing to do all day, and in the evening we had training sessions again. But during the day, so we wouldn’t be busy with unnecessary things, my father sometimes gave us work. And we’d ask, “Why are we digging this pit?” He’d say, “Well, people used to use it like a refrigerator. When you dig two or three meters down, it is cold inside. You can put milk there, cheese, things like that, so the food does not go bad.” And we were like, “Okay, but do we really need these refrigerators every day?” So in that sense, this was his approach back then. He always had this kind of unique approach.
There we’d train in the morning, then there was nothing to do all day, and in the evening we had training sessions again. But during the day, so we wouldn’t be busy with unnecessary things, my father sometimes gave us work. And we’d ask, “Why are we digging this pit?” He’d say, “Well, people used to use it like a refrigerator. When you dig two or three meters down, it is cold inside. You can put milk there, cheese, things like that, so the food does not go bad.” And we were like, “Okay, but do we really need these refrigerators every day?” So in that sense, this was his approach back then. He always had this kind of unique approach.
Lex Fridman
Well, what’s the philosophy here? That you gotta be busy all the time, working hard, doing something difficult.
Well, what’s the philosophy here? That you gotta be busy all the time, working hard, doing something difficult.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, it’s very dangerous to give a child free time in adolescence. They should always be busy learning new information, improving, acquiring new skills. A person should always be busy. When you’re sixteen, well, what can be on your mind? You should constantly develop and improve. And by this time, you should already, I believe, have decided what you want to become. You should already be investing in what you want to turn into.
Yes, it’s very dangerous to give a child free time in adolescence. They should always be busy learning new information, improving, acquiring new skills. A person should always be busy. When you’re sixteen, well, what can be on your mind? You should constantly develop and improve. And by this time, you should already, I believe, have decided what you want to become. You should already be investing in what you want to turn into.
Street fights in Dagestan
Lex Fridman
By the way, you had several very good conversations with Nurlan, with Adam, which I highly recommend. In one of them, your brother Abubakar told a story that when you were young, there were several street fights, maybe many, I don’t know. He said he was the one who got you into it. You were kind of bigger, and he needed protection at that time. You were that protection. Can you tell us these stories? How often did you fight on the streets of Dagestan?
By the way, you had several very good conversations with Nurlan, with Adam, which I highly recommend. In one of them, your brother Abubakar told a story that when you were young, there were several street fights, maybe many, I don’t know. He said he was the one who got you into it. You were kind of bigger, and he needed protection at that time. You were that protection. Can you tell us these stories? How often did you fight on the streets of Dagestan?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, let’s start with the fact that I never bullied anyone. Never. Although I physically could bully, yes, let’s say I had the capability. I wasn’t the kind of person who started the fights.
Well, let’s start with the fact that I never bullied anyone. Never. Although I physically could bully, yes, let’s say I had the capability. I wasn’t the kind of person who started the fights.
Lex Fridman
You didn’t start?
You didn’t start?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I didn’t. Well-
I didn’t. Well-
Lex Fridman
Tried to finish.
Tried to finish.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, maybe there were some moments, but mostly no. Mostly I didn’t start. Abubakar, sure, he was like that. In my circle, I had some guys who were a little bit like that.
Well, maybe there were some moments, but mostly no. Mostly I didn’t start. Abubakar, sure, he was like that. In my circle, I had some guys who were a little bit like that.
Lex Fridman
He said that he’s a bit of-
He said that he’s a bit of-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He was a troublemaker.
He was a troublemaker.
Lex Fridman
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He was a troublemaker, and because of him, I got into trouble many times. When you’re, let’s say, fourteen, fifteen years old and your brother is fighting, you don’t really ask who’s right or who’s wrong. You just go in, you start to, as we say, you interfere. You just have to go in, right? But when you’re older, more conscious, when you’re twenty, twenty-five or thirty years old, this is when you really start telling him, “You know, Abubakar, I think you’re wrong here. Yes, we’ll finish this right now, but in the future, I wouldn’t want you to get involved because I think it’s wrong, right?” Well, as kids, we just didn’t ask. We just went right in.
He was a troublemaker, and because of him, I got into trouble many times. When you’re, let’s say, fourteen, fifteen years old and your brother is fighting, you don’t really ask who’s right or who’s wrong. You just go in, you start to, as we say, you interfere. You just have to go in, right? But when you’re older, more conscious, when you’re twenty, twenty-five or thirty years old, this is when you really start telling him, “You know, Abubakar, I think you’re wrong here. Yes, we’ll finish this right now, but in the future, I wouldn’t want you to get involved because I think it’s wrong, right?” Well, as kids, we just didn’t ask. We just went right in.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
When we moved to Makhachkala in the nineteen ninety-nine, let’s say the end of nineteen ninety-nine, so there were– we were many brothers, more than ten of us. We lived in one house. Some were in school, some in college, some in university. But we all had one routine. We trained in the morning, then went to school. We’d come home, rest, do homework, then train in the evening, come home and rest without mothers, just by ourselves. Father gathered everyone. He took in close friends and family, his nephews, cousins, relatives, those who didn’t have a father, and so on. He took them in, and we all lived in one house. We cooked, cleaned, did laundry all by ourselves. It was like, well, some kind of army life, you know?
When we moved to Makhachkala in the nineteen ninety-nine, let’s say the end of nineteen ninety-nine, so there were– we were many brothers, more than ten of us. We lived in one house. Some were in school, some in college, some in university. But we all had one routine. We trained in the morning, then went to school. We’d come home, rest, do homework, then train in the evening, come home and rest without mothers, just by ourselves. Father gathered everyone. He took in close friends and family, his nephews, cousins, relatives, those who didn’t have a father, and so on. He took them in, and we all lived in one house. We cooked, cleaned, did laundry all by ourselves. It was like, well, some kind of army life, you know?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And when the brothers had some problems, let’s say misunderstandings, we didn’t go easy on those guys. And even those who lived around there near that house, in that district, in the settlement, everyone knew that there were lots of brothers living there. So they had to be careful. And we had a football field there. It was right in front of the house, and everyone who came to play there, we constantly had fights there, misunderstandings. There were older brothers. They were always watching us, keeping us from trouble. “Don’t do this. Don’t do that. Watch your mouth.” But we had our own little group. The age difference between us was maybe two, three years. There were five or six of us. We’d always go outside and play football.
And when the brothers had some problems, let’s say misunderstandings, we didn’t go easy on those guys. And even those who lived around there near that house, in that district, in the settlement, everyone knew that there were lots of brothers living there. So they had to be careful. And we had a football field there. It was right in front of the house, and everyone who came to play there, we constantly had fights there, misunderstandings. There were older brothers. They were always watching us, keeping us from trouble. “Don’t do this. Don’t do that. Watch your mouth.” But we had our own little group. The age difference between us was maybe two, three years. There were five or six of us. We’d always go outside and play football.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
If our team was losing, then the game would just turn into a whole different sport, and that’s how we were growing up. We spent six, seven years there, almost ten years. We were living together, growing, training. A lot has happened over that time, but I was never… Well, maybe just a couple of times, okay? Mostly, I was never the initiator of fights with some exceptions. I just remember since childhood, my father always told me, “You don’t need to use force on the street.” My father looked at all of this in a completely different way.
If our team was losing, then the game would just turn into a whole different sport, and that’s how we were growing up. We spent six, seven years there, almost ten years. We were living together, growing, training. A lot has happened over that time, but I was never… Well, maybe just a couple of times, okay? Mostly, I was never the initiator of fights with some exceptions. I just remember since childhood, my father always told me, “You don’t need to use force on the street.” My father looked at all of this in a completely different way.
Lex Fridman
What is your understanding of the difference between the street fight and sports?
What is your understanding of the difference between the street fight and sports?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
There is a very big difference. I saw many fights where if you put those same guys into sparring, in wrestling, MMA or combat Sambo, one guy could beat the other very easily. But the street is completely different. There are no rules, no referees, no points. You just fight there, and it’s totally different. I can say I actually had a major turning point in my life. Let’s say the one that, in terms of psychology, really changed my whole attitude towards MMA.
There is a very big difference. I saw many fights where if you put those same guys into sparring, in wrestling, MMA or combat Sambo, one guy could beat the other very easily. But the street is completely different. There are no rules, no referees, no points. You just fight there, and it’s totally different. I can say I actually had a major turning point in my life. Let’s say the one that, in terms of psychology, really changed my whole attitude towards MMA.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Back in twenty oh two, twenty oh three, my father kept me in wrestling. He trained MMA combat Sambo, but wanted me to stay in wrestling. My cousin, who was older than me by a couple of months, he was training with my father. His freestyle wrestling was weak, so my father sent him to me, to the place where I was training. It was called the School of Higher Sports Mastery. The local guys from the city know this place. He came to practice and got into it with a guy in our gym who was heavier, maybe one class heavier. This guy was the best in his weight, winning Dagestan and the city too. So they got into a conflict. They were arguing. My brother had just joined. He was new to our freestyle wrestling gym, right? But I knew the other guy well. They paired up and they got into it.
Back in twenty oh two, twenty oh three, my father kept me in wrestling. He trained MMA combat Sambo, but wanted me to stay in wrestling. My cousin, who was older than me by a couple of months, he was training with my father. His freestyle wrestling was weak, so my father sent him to me, to the place where I was training. It was called the School of Higher Sports Mastery. The local guys from the city know this place. He came to practice and got into it with a guy in our gym who was heavier, maybe one class heavier. This guy was the best in his weight, winning Dagestan and the city too. So they got into a conflict. They were arguing. My brother had just joined. He was new to our freestyle wrestling gym, right? But I knew the other guy well. They paired up and they got into it.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, that’s my brother, right? So the guy goes, “Let’s meet up after.” And they agreed, as we say, to step outside after the training. I remember it was raining heavily, a real downpour. The guy brought his brother. I came with mine. We went outside and they started fighting one-on-one. I remember he shot in, lifted and took him down. Abdurakhman, my brother, threw up a triangle and he choked him out. When we went out, I was thinking Abdurakhman will lose to this guy. I even visualized it happening, the whole thing. Like, this guy beats him, and then I start fighting. Well, I’m not going there for my brother to lose. In my head, I was getting into a fight. But he threw him locked up in a triangle.
Well, that’s my brother, right? So the guy goes, “Let’s meet up after.” And they agreed, as we say, to step outside after the training. I remember it was raining heavily, a real downpour. The guy brought his brother. I came with mine. We went outside and they started fighting one-on-one. I remember he shot in, lifted and took him down. Abdurakhman, my brother, threw up a triangle and he choked him out. When we went out, I was thinking Abdurakhman will lose to this guy. I even visualized it happening, the whole thing. Like, this guy beats him, and then I start fighting. Well, I’m not going there for my brother to lose. In my head, I was getting into a fight. But he threw him locked up in a triangle.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
For the first time, I saw with my own eyes how someone chokes another person with a triangle and they lose consciousness.
For the first time, I saw with my own eyes how someone chokes another person with a triangle and they lose consciousness.
Lex Fridman
Wow.
Wow.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
They fought, he put him to sleep. We had to pull them apart, me and other guys. Fights over, Abdurrahman won. And on the way home, I’m like, “Abdurrahman, wow. You impress me.” I came home and immediately told my father. I said… That was in 2002 or ’03, if I’m not mistaken. I am 14 years old. I said, “I’m switching to combat Sambo.” I said, “What Abdurrahman did, the one he choked out, he’s not just anyone in the gym. He’s one of the best wrestlers, but he couldn’t do anything.” My father said, “You’ll go to wrestling, but you’ll come to me, I’ll teach you. You’ll learn techniques here and so on. But I want you to gain wrestling skills.” I started going three days to train with my father, three days to wrestling.
They fought, he put him to sleep. We had to pull them apart, me and other guys. Fights over, Abdurrahman won. And on the way home, I’m like, “Abdurrahman, wow. You impress me.” I came home and immediately told my father. I said… That was in 2002 or ’03, if I’m not mistaken. I am 14 years old. I said, “I’m switching to combat Sambo.” I said, “What Abdurrahman did, the one he choked out, he’s not just anyone in the gym. He’s one of the best wrestlers, but he couldn’t do anything.” My father said, “You’ll go to wrestling, but you’ll come to me, I’ll teach you. You’ll learn techniques here and so on. But I want you to gain wrestling skills.” I started going three days to train with my father, three days to wrestling.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And at that moment, I realized that no matter how strong the wrestler is, lying on the back is where the wrestling normally ends, but MMA only begins there. And I was like, I thought, “I need this. I need this mixed style.” I realized this was for me. I started going to my father’s trainings, despite that he didn’t let me. He didn’t want me to do fighting. I think most people don’t know this. My father wanted me to do freestyle wrestling or judo, but in my head, I already had this mixed style. I always wanted to compete. I was already getting tapes to watch. I always wanted to compete where there are no rules, where I could fully use my skills.
And at that moment, I realized that no matter how strong the wrestler is, lying on the back is where the wrestling normally ends, but MMA only begins there. And I was like, I thought, “I need this. I need this mixed style.” I realized this was for me. I started going to my father’s trainings, despite that he didn’t let me. He didn’t want me to do fighting. I think most people don’t know this. My father wanted me to do freestyle wrestling or judo, but in my head, I already had this mixed style. I always wanted to compete. I was already getting tapes to watch. I always wanted to compete where there are no rules, where I could fully use my skills.
Lex Fridman
Maximum freedom.
Maximum freedom.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, judo, Sambo, freestyle, grappling, jujitsu. More people knew jujitsu than grappling. After that, I switched, and from there my journey slowly started, which I had already begun. That’s when I started the amateur journey. Then when I started getting good results as an amateur, I realized that I can switch to pro and achieve success. Sambo. In combat Sambo. Combat Sambo. I competed in all kinds of sports. Everything that involves wrestling and fighting. I competed everywhere. I competed in freestyle, in judo, in grappling, in combat Sambo. I competed in sport Sambo, in hand-to-hand combat, in pankration. My father put me in all competitions. He would say, “You have a competition here and another one there. Now you are preparing for this one.
Yes, judo, Sambo, freestyle, grappling, jujitsu. More people knew jujitsu than grappling. After that, I switched, and from there my journey slowly started, which I had already begun. That’s when I started the amateur journey. Then when I started getting good results as an amateur, I realized that I can switch to pro and achieve success. Sambo. In combat Sambo. Combat Sambo. I competed in all kinds of sports. Everything that involves wrestling and fighting. I competed everywhere. I competed in freestyle, in judo, in grappling, in combat Sambo. I competed in sport Sambo, in hand-to-hand combat, in pankration. My father put me in all competitions. He would say, “You have a competition here and another one there. Now you are preparing for this one.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You will compete in this weight, under these rules, in this sport.” And he was sending me everywhere. He would tell me, “You will need this in the future. The more competition experience you have, the more relaxed and confident you’ll feel. It builds up over time.” When I was young, I was losing as well. I go to a judo competition, win two matches and lose two matches. I would ask, “Father, why are you sending me there? This is not my sport.” And he’d say, “No, go and compete.” So, okay, I went, I cut weight. The next day you come in, you see 50 competitors in your weight class. You let this weight, this competitive energy pass through you, and psychologically you get better, better, better each time. You become more relaxed about it.
You will compete in this weight, under these rules, in this sport.” And he was sending me everywhere. He would tell me, “You will need this in the future. The more competition experience you have, the more relaxed and confident you’ll feel. It builds up over time.” When I was young, I was losing as well. I go to a judo competition, win two matches and lose two matches. I would ask, “Father, why are you sending me there? This is not my sport.” And he’d say, “No, go and compete.” So, okay, I went, I cut weight. The next day you come in, you see 50 competitors in your weight class. You let this weight, this competitive energy pass through you, and psychologically you get better, better, better each time. You become more relaxed about it.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And this moment really affected me, although then I didn’t agree with my father. Back then I thought, “Why should I compete in other sports?” He said, “You can wrestle, right? Well, go wrestle.” I was saying, “But judo isn’t my sport. It’s hard for me there.” He says, “Well, you went on four times. Look, you won twice, then lost twice. You competed four times. You’re 15 years old. You’re just developing. Do you know how valuable this experience is for you? Four matches in one day.” Now when I’m coaching, I understand the psychological approach, how important it is. I realize now how correctly he prepared me for the big stage. The preparation was already happening then when I was 15 years old.
And this moment really affected me, although then I didn’t agree with my father. Back then I thought, “Why should I compete in other sports?” He said, “You can wrestle, right? Well, go wrestle.” I was saying, “But judo isn’t my sport. It’s hard for me there.” He says, “Well, you went on four times. Look, you won twice, then lost twice. You competed four times. You’re 15 years old. You’re just developing. Do you know how valuable this experience is for you? Four matches in one day.” Now when I’m coaching, I understand the psychological approach, how important it is. I realize now how correctly he prepared me for the big stage. The preparation was already happening then when I was 15 years old.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
For example, when I went into the biggest fight in combat sports history, when I fought in 2018 here in Las Vegas. At that point, I was already at my peak, prime time. I was 30 years old. I went through all possible competitions as an amateur and a professional. And you know what? I was ready. This preparation, it started back then when I was 15. It’s not like they give you a fight and you prepare for two months. Preparation starts long before you even step into the octagon.
For example, when I went into the biggest fight in combat sports history, when I fought in 2018 here in Las Vegas. At that point, I was already at my peak, prime time. I was 30 years old. I went through all possible competitions as an amateur and a professional. And you know what? I was ready. This preparation, it started back then when I was 15. It’s not like they give you a fight and you prepare for two months. Preparation starts long before you even step into the octagon.
Lex Fridman
So this experience of competitions, which started at 15, it continued, it expanded.
So this experience of competitions, which started at 15, it continued, it expanded.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course.
Lex Fridman
So can you explain what was going on in your head?
So can you explain what was going on in your head?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I didn’t want to lose. I just didn’t. It never occurred to me that I could get hurt, that someone could hurt me, that I might break a finger somewhere. I never had that in my head, that I could get hit, that I’d get a scratch, and so on. I don’t know if you can call it perfectionism. I didn’t want to lose. And to not lose, I knew I needed to compete a lot and improve. Training is one thing, but competing is different. I understood that the more I competed, the more experience I would gain. I had to go through it. It was constantly on my mind. This understanding that I must compete a lot came to me at an early age, since I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, and I never stopped thinking about it. So it was always in the back of my mind.
I didn’t want to lose. I just didn’t. It never occurred to me that I could get hurt, that someone could hurt me, that I might break a finger somewhere. I never had that in my head, that I could get hit, that I’d get a scratch, and so on. I don’t know if you can call it perfectionism. I didn’t want to lose. And to not lose, I knew I needed to compete a lot and improve. Training is one thing, but competing is different. I understood that the more I competed, the more experience I would gain. I had to go through it. It was constantly on my mind. This understanding that I must compete a lot came to me at an early age, since I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, and I never stopped thinking about it. So it was always in the back of my mind.
Khabib’s top pressure
Lex Fridman
Were you confident that you would win?
Were you confident that you would win?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
In my youth? No.
In my youth? No.
Lex Fridman
Were you afraid to lose?
Were you afraid to lose?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, in my youth, I wasn’t always so sure. I just wasn’t. Because I never stood out. Yes, I had a coach for a father, and how many, how many trainers have kids who compete but aren’t successful? And then when I went to the big leagues, you know, I had already fought. I had done sixteen professional fights across the post-Soviet space. Later, when I was already signed to the UFC, there I already had this feeling. You know, with each fight, I was getting mentally stronger. My mind was becoming more and more solid, like concrete. When I went out there, I knew, yes, these are fights. Yes, you can take a hit. Yes, anything can happen when knees, elbows, fists are flying, when you can get caught in a choke, you know? But I thought, “If they don’t knock me out, how will they beat me?
Yeah, in my youth, I wasn’t always so sure. I just wasn’t. Because I never stood out. Yes, I had a coach for a father, and how many, how many trainers have kids who compete but aren’t successful? And then when I went to the big leagues, you know, I had already fought. I had done sixteen professional fights across the post-Soviet space. Later, when I was already signed to the UFC, there I already had this feeling. You know, with each fight, I was getting mentally stronger. My mind was becoming more and more solid, like concrete. When I went out there, I knew, yes, these are fights. Yes, you can take a hit. Yes, anything can happen when knees, elbows, fists are flying, when you can get caught in a choke, you know? But I thought, “If they don’t knock me out, how will they beat me?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I have fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes is enough to make a person tired.” I’m like, “Okay, if you wanna stop me, come here. I’ll give you that chance. Let’s get in the octagon.” I had this impatience during fight week. I wanted to go in there and feel my opponent. I just wanted to be inside the cage for them to close us in, for the referee to say, “Ready? Ready. Fight.” And here I wanted to feel, to grapple with him and feel his strength, his skills, his energy, and for it not to stop. And with any opponent I felt from the beginning, and I didn’t actually have superhuman strength. But from the beginning, when I grabbed them in the first minute and then in the sixth or seventh minute, I could feel them fading.
I have fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes is enough to make a person tired.” I’m like, “Okay, if you wanna stop me, come here. I’ll give you that chance. Let’s get in the octagon.” I had this impatience during fight week. I wanted to go in there and feel my opponent. I just wanted to be inside the cage for them to close us in, for the referee to say, “Ready? Ready. Fight.” And here I wanted to feel, to grapple with him and feel his strength, his skills, his energy, and for it not to stop. And with any opponent I felt from the beginning, and I didn’t actually have superhuman strength. But from the beginning, when I grabbed them in the first minute and then in the sixth or seventh minute, I could feel them fading.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I was, let’s say, like squeezing this energy out of them, and I was getting better and better minute by minute.
I was, let’s say, like squeezing this energy out of them, and I was getting better and better minute by minute.
Lex Fridman
Can you break down the technical details of your top pressure? That pressure you put on in wrestling, on the ground, all of it. How does it work? Can you explain the philosophy behind it?
Can you break down the technical details of your top pressure? That pressure you put on in wrestling, on the ground, all of it. How does it work? Can you explain the philosophy behind it?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Over the years, I’ve learned to use my strength properly. There’s this sport called aikido. I don’t like it much, but I like their philosophy, where your strength might work against you. I think for a lot of listeners, this is gonna be a brand-new sport. But there is this sport called aikido, and the whole philosophy behind it is using your opponent’s force against them. That’s what I learned to do. And I have learned to force an opponent into positions where they have to escape, wasting their energy. Like when we were sparring yesterday.
Over the years, I’ve learned to use my strength properly. There’s this sport called aikido. I don’t like it much, but I like their philosophy, where your strength might work against you. I think for a lot of listeners, this is gonna be a brand-new sport. But there is this sport called aikido, and the whole philosophy behind it is using your opponent’s force against them. That’s what I learned to do. And I have learned to force an opponent into positions where they have to escape, wasting their energy. Like when we were sparring yesterday.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
That’s exactly what I wanted. I wanted you to feel that energy, that heavy top pressure. We could have just played around. I could have gone easy on you, but I wanted you to feel the real heavy pressure. And of course, please don’t think it was a sign of disrespect. It’s quite the opposite.
That’s exactly what I wanted. I wanted you to feel that energy, that heavy top pressure. We could have just played around. I could have gone easy on you, but I wanted you to feel the real heavy pressure. And of course, please don’t think it was a sign of disrespect. It’s quite the opposite.
Lex Fridman
No, it was respect.
No, it was respect.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I just wanted you to feel that, you know, how exhausting it can be. I think you felt it yourself that it was a bit different from the kind of grappling you’ve dealt with before. I’m sure of it.
I just wanted you to feel that, you know, how exhausting it can be. I think you felt it yourself that it was a bit different from the kind of grappling you’ve dealt with before. I’m sure of it.
Lex Fridman
The only one who’s even close to that is, I mean, you’re the absolute number one. But the only thing is, when I trained with Roger Gracie in a different sport, you get that same feeling with him. Like, the guy is just insanely heavy.
The only one who’s even close to that is, I mean, you’re the absolute number one. But the only thing is, when I trained with Roger Gracie in a different sport, you get that same feeling with him. Like, the guy is just insanely heavy.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Mm-hmm. Pressure. Pressure. Well, Roger, he’s the greatest, too. He’s the greatest in his own sport. What makes a person unique is his style, his style and his approach to his work. I always approach my craft very professionally, you know, respectfully. I believe that if you’re gonna be in this game, in this sport, you have to completely dedicate yourself to it.
Mm-hmm. Pressure. Pressure. Well, Roger, he’s the greatest, too. He’s the greatest in his own sport. What makes a person unique is his style, his style and his approach to his work. I always approach my craft very professionally, you know, respectfully. I believe that if you’re gonna be in this game, in this sport, you have to completely dedicate yourself to it.
Lex Fridman
But I think you had a deep understanding of how to break an opponent, both physically and psychologically, just looking at your style.
But I think you had a deep understanding of how to break an opponent, both physically and psychologically, just looking at your style.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I’ve always been right there, always fighting for position. I always– Look, I mean that I just always had this thought in my head. My grandfather always told me, “A dog that latches onto that one weak spot always wins.” It’s the same with a fighter. When you’re fighting on pure instinct, you feel your opponent’s weakness. You know where they’re weak, and you have to keep pressing right there. For example, let’s say I’m fighting Conor, right? His strengths are his striking, his timing and his speed, his boxing. Why would I stand and strike with him? What am I supposed to do? I have to put pressure on his weak spot. So that’s what separates the fighters who reach success, the highest level of success, and become the best of the best.
I’ve always been right there, always fighting for position. I always– Look, I mean that I just always had this thought in my head. My grandfather always told me, “A dog that latches onto that one weak spot always wins.” It’s the same with a fighter. When you’re fighting on pure instinct, you feel your opponent’s weakness. You know where they’re weak, and you have to keep pressing right there. For example, let’s say I’m fighting Conor, right? His strengths are his striking, his timing and his speed, his boxing. Why would I stand and strike with him? What am I supposed to do? I have to put pressure on his weak spot. So that’s what separates the fighters who reach success, the highest level of success, and become the best of the best.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
They know how to find an opponent’s weakness, and they pressure it relentlessly. So it all comes down to having the right strategy here.
They know how to find an opponent’s weakness, and they pressure it relentlessly. So it all comes down to having the right strategy here.
Khabib vs Conor McGregor
Lex Fridman
Your fight with Conor, I think, was the biggest fight in UFC history. That’s for sure. Well, actually, in all of sports. Do you think there will ever be another fight of that magnitude in the UFC? Is it even possible?
Your fight with Conor, I think, was the biggest fight in UFC history. That’s for sure. Well, actually, in all of sports. Do you think there will ever be another fight of that magnitude in the UFC? Is it even possible?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, let’s look at the history here. I mean, our sport is still very young, say thirty-five years old, starting from the ’90s. Put it this way. Take, for example, the sport most similar to MMA, which is, well, let’s say boxing. How old is boxing? A hundred and fifty years? Like, when you think boxing, what pops into your head? Thrilla in Manila?
Well, let’s look at the history here. I mean, our sport is still very young, say thirty-five years old, starting from the ’90s. Put it this way. Take, for example, the sport most similar to MMA, which is, well, let’s say boxing. How old is boxing? A hundred and fifty years? Like, when you think boxing, what pops into your head? Thrilla in Manila?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, yeah. Well, I love Mike Tyson a lot too, so.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I love Mike Tyson a lot too, so.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, Tyson had big fights, but Mike Tyson never had that signature rival like Muhammad Ali had in Joe Frazier. Yeah, he just didn’t have one. I mean, who do we have? Evander Holyfield? Look, Holyfield-Tyson is no Muhammad Ali. Take Ali and Frazier, Thrilla in Manila, right? People called it the greatest rivalry, and it still is. In the 20th century, there was nothing that could compare. In the 21st century, the only thing you could compare to it, purely based on the numbers, is Pacquiao and Mayweather. Yes, there was public interest, but there wasn’t the energy that there was with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier.
Well, Tyson had big fights, but Mike Tyson never had that signature rival like Muhammad Ali had in Joe Frazier. Yeah, he just didn’t have one. I mean, who do we have? Evander Holyfield? Look, Holyfield-Tyson is no Muhammad Ali. Take Ali and Frazier, Thrilla in Manila, right? People called it the greatest rivalry, and it still is. In the 20th century, there was nothing that could compare. In the 21st century, the only thing you could compare to it, purely based on the numbers, is Pacquiao and Mayweather. Yes, there was public interest, but there wasn’t the energy that there was with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, if I can just pause for a second, I’ll check on Perplexity. List the biggest boxing fights of all time. It’s Ali and Frazier, like you said.
Yeah, if I can just pause for a second, I’ll check on Perplexity. List the biggest boxing fights of all time. It’s Ali and Frazier, like you said.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman
The first, the third.
The first, the third.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, when he lost, and then the third fight, the Thrilla in Manila.
Well, when he lost, and then the third fight, the Thrilla in Manila.
Lex Fridman
And Foreman, I must say Ali versus Foreman.
And Foreman, I must say Ali versus Foreman.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, Foreman, that was the year, I think, ’74, right?
Well, Foreman, that was the year, I think, ’74, right?
Lex Fridman
The fight was watched by up to a billion people worldwide.
The fight was watched by up to a billion people worldwide.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one of those things. Politics got mixed into it too. Well, it was actually a very big fight.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one of those things. Politics got mixed into it too. Well, it was actually a very big fight.
Lex Fridman
Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard versus Thomas Hearns, Hagler versus Hearns.
Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard versus Thomas Hearns, Hagler versus Hearns.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, Hagler. Hagler and Duran in Montreal. Sugar Ray Leonard and Duran in Montreal when they fought, when he admitted after the fight that he lost the mental game and broke down before the fight. But then Sugar Ray beat him later.
Well, Hagler. Hagler and Duran in Montreal. Sugar Ray Leonard and Duran in Montreal when they fought, when he admitted after the fight that he lost the mental game and broke down before the fight. But then Sugar Ray beat him later.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, he came back and won.
Yeah, he came back and won.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah. Well, if you look at it out of everything that stands out, I think you can mention Frazier and Muhammad Ali. And there was also Joe Louis against German Max Schmeling. Hitler stood behind Schmeling, and Roosevelt stood behind Louis. For those who don’t know this story, I just watched it recently. It was something incomparable. They were so big. They were two of the most famous athletes of their time. Roosevelt was promoting Joe Louis, you know? At that moment for America, it was like something incredible that a white president was promoting a Black world champion. And on the other hand, Hitler stood behind Schmeling.
Yeah. Well, if you look at it out of everything that stands out, I think you can mention Frazier and Muhammad Ali. And there was also Joe Louis against German Max Schmeling. Hitler stood behind Schmeling, and Roosevelt stood behind Louis. For those who don’t know this story, I just watched it recently. It was something incomparable. They were so big. They were two of the most famous athletes of their time. Roosevelt was promoting Joe Louis, you know? At that moment for America, it was like something incredible that a white president was promoting a Black world champion. And on the other hand, Hitler stood behind Schmeling.
Lex Fridman
It was what? Nineteen thirty-six, nineteen thirty-eight. They had-
It was what? Nineteen thirty-six, nineteen thirty-eight. They had-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
They fought twice?
They fought twice?
Lex Fridman
Twice.
Twice.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They fought two times.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They fought two times.
Lex Fridman
This wasn’t just a good boxing match, just a good fight. This was politics. Those were nations.
This wasn’t just a good boxing match, just a good fight. This was politics. Those were nations.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
This was politics. This was nations.
This was politics. This was nations.
Lex Fridman
Everything.
Everything.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It all came together.
It all came together.
Lex Fridman
And it’s the same thing with Ali too. Muhammad Ali with the Vietnam War, all that stuff. And his, and even religion is tied into it. Everything here came together.
And it’s the same thing with Ali too. Muhammad Ali with the Vietnam War, all that stuff. And his, and even religion is tied into it. Everything here came together.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
They simply went beyond sports. It was the exact same thing when I fought Conor. That fight went beyond our sport. It impacted every sport because athletes of all kinds of different sports, everyone who loves to compete, it didn’t matter if it was football, basketball, soccer, or boxing, everyone was following this. And honestly, will there be a fight like that? Well, it’s hard for me to say, but I think it’ll happen. It’ll happen for sure. There will always be champions. There will always be rivalries. But when it’ll happen, that’s just a matter of time.
They simply went beyond sports. It was the exact same thing when I fought Conor. That fight went beyond our sport. It impacted every sport because athletes of all kinds of different sports, everyone who loves to compete, it didn’t matter if it was football, basketball, soccer, or boxing, everyone was following this. And honestly, will there be a fight like that? Well, it’s hard for me to say, but I think it’ll happen. It’ll happen for sure. There will always be champions. There will always be rivalries. But when it’ll happen, that’s just a matter of time.
Lex Fridman
So it’s not entirely about the athletes. It’s about everything combined.
So it’s not entirely about the athletes. It’s about everything combined.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah. It’s everything combined. The way he talked, what he stirred up, the lines he crossed, touching on family, religion. And then somehow on one side you had Conor, this really interesting champion who knew how to hype himself up, and on the other side, you had this undefeated somebody from, from nowhere, from the mountains. You know how it is. It all somehow, all of it just kind of happened naturally. And it wasn’t staged. It was real. We had a real rivalry, unlike the way a lot of people now just hype up interest in a fight, but people feel that energy. It doesn’t go anywhere. People can tell what’s real and what’s fake. And because of that, we went beyond our own sport. That’s what made this fight so massive.
Yeah. It’s everything combined. The way he talked, what he stirred up, the lines he crossed, touching on family, religion. And then somehow on one side you had Conor, this really interesting champion who knew how to hype himself up, and on the other side, you had this undefeated somebody from, from nowhere, from the mountains. You know how it is. It all somehow, all of it just kind of happened naturally. And it wasn’t staged. It was real. We had a real rivalry, unlike the way a lot of people now just hype up interest in a fight, but people feel that energy. It doesn’t go anywhere. People can tell what’s real and what’s fake. And because of that, we went beyond our own sport. That’s what made this fight so massive.
Lex Fridman
Well, when you look into your heart back then and now, did you have anger? Did you have hatred for him?
Well, when you look into your heart back then and now, did you have anger? Did you have hatred for him?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Back then and even now, I’d still keep a cool head. Nothing has changed. When you let your emotions take over, when they’re off the charts and you completely lose control, that’s a very bad place to be. So you’ll tire out faster. You’ll fall. You’ll fall for any kind of bait and so on. I just knew that I needed to stay calm, composed, to stick to the plan no matter what happened, and not go beyond my emotional limits. This is a very, very dangerous moment when you give in to your emotions. You have to control them. Every single detail, every little thing has to be perfectly in place. The second you let it all slip, everything becomes a total mess. So once the fight was finally done, I just let all my emotions out.
Back then and even now, I’d still keep a cool head. Nothing has changed. When you let your emotions take over, when they’re off the charts and you completely lose control, that’s a very bad place to be. So you’ll tire out faster. You’ll fall. You’ll fall for any kind of bait and so on. I just knew that I needed to stay calm, composed, to stick to the plan no matter what happened, and not go beyond my emotional limits. This is a very, very dangerous moment when you give in to your emotions. You have to control them. Every single detail, every little thing has to be perfectly in place. The second you let it all slip, everything becomes a total mess. So once the fight was finally done, I just let all my emotions out.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I had to step right in and prove it, and punish him, and show them I’m better, that I’m better than him, and put a final end to this whole bitter rivalry. When all of that was over-
I had to step right in and prove it, and punish him, and show them I’m better, that I’m better than him, and put a final end to this whole bitter rivalry. When all of that was over-
Lex Fridman
Your emotions came out?
Your emotions came out?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
… that’s when my emotions just went over the edge. But until the fight was completely finished, starting from training, you know, at the press conferences, at the weigh-ins, everywhere, in front of the media, everywhere, I kept myself completely under control, and I was very good at it. Honestly, looking back it’s been almost eight years now. Looking back, well, I’m a little surprised. At that point, I was a very emotional guy, too. Over these eight years a lot has happened in my life, but I’m surprised that I kept it together. And well, you know, it wasn’t easy for me to keep myself within my limits, to keep myself under control like that. But here, again, I’ll come back to what I said, I was very lucky.
… that’s when my emotions just went over the edge. But until the fight was completely finished, starting from training, you know, at the press conferences, at the weigh-ins, everywhere, in front of the media, everywhere, I kept myself completely under control, and I was very good at it. Honestly, looking back it’s been almost eight years now. Looking back, well, I’m a little surprised. At that point, I was a very emotional guy, too. Over these eight years a lot has happened in my life, but I’m surprised that I kept it together. And well, you know, it wasn’t easy for me to keep myself within my limits, to keep myself under control like that. But here, again, I’ll come back to what I said, I was very lucky.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
My father called me at that time I was here two months before the fight. His advice helped me out so much because for me it was not just that it mattered, it was actually the most important thing for me back then just to know my father’s reaction, how he was taking everything that was happening, because there was just so much media coverage, so I knew my father was watching. It was important for me to know his take. I’d call and ask, and my father would even tell me things I hadn’t even asked him about. He’d bring it up on his own. Because you know the way it is with us, between me and my father, in our traditions, in our part of the world, in our family for generations, in our village, there’s just always this distance with your father.
My father called me at that time I was here two months before the fight. His advice helped me out so much because for me it was not just that it mattered, it was actually the most important thing for me back then just to know my father’s reaction, how he was taking everything that was happening, because there was just so much media coverage, so I knew my father was watching. It was important for me to know his take. I’d call and ask, and my father would even tell me things I hadn’t even asked him about. He’d bring it up on his own. Because you know the way it is with us, between me and my father, in our traditions, in our part of the world, in our family for generations, in our village, there’s just always this distance with your father.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Like, when you walk in, there are just so many things you can’t let yourself do in front of your father. You have to be like, sort of like a soldier in front of a general, right? If you can even make that comparison. If a soldier stands at attention like that, then with us it’s even stricter. Like even, just to give an example here. For instance, imagine you’re a father sitting there, right? And your two-year-old kid walks up to you and wants to play with you. You can’t even, like, do that baby talk thing with your own kid.
Like, when you walk in, there are just so many things you can’t let yourself do in front of your father. You have to be like, sort of like a soldier in front of a general, right? If you can even make that comparison. If a soldier stands at attention like that, then with us it’s even stricter. Like even, just to give an example here. For instance, imagine you’re a father sitting there, right? And your two-year-old kid walks up to you and wants to play with you. You can’t even, like, do that baby talk thing with your own kid.
Lex Fridman
You don’t have that kind of friendship.
You don’t have that kind of friendship.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You know it’s a friendship, but-
You know it’s a friendship, but-
Lex Fridman
It’s different, yes.
It’s different, yes.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
There’s a certain distance that you must keep around your father. You always have to be, like, completely buttoned up.
There’s a certain distance that you must keep around your father. You always have to be, like, completely buttoned up.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You have to stand like a soldier in front of your father. You don’t let your emotions take over. At that point, just to know what my father thought, who was, like, all the way across the ocean, who couldn’t just fly out and be there to support his son and just be there by my side. But for me, since he didn’t have a visa, I just had to know exactly what he thought. I didn’t care what anyone else thought. I didn’t care about the opinions of, like, millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions watching this fight. I only ever cared about one person and his take, what he thought and what he’d say to me. But I couldn’t call him and say, “Father, what do you think about this?” Well, we never had that. Well, you had to wait. I would just call and wait to hear what he’d say.
You have to stand like a soldier in front of your father. You don’t let your emotions take over. At that point, just to know what my father thought, who was, like, all the way across the ocean, who couldn’t just fly out and be there to support his son and just be there by my side. But for me, since he didn’t have a visa, I just had to know exactly what he thought. I didn’t care what anyone else thought. I didn’t care about the opinions of, like, millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions watching this fight. I only ever cared about one person and his take, what he thought and what he’d say to me. But I couldn’t call him and say, “Father, what do you think about this?” Well, we never had that. Well, you had to wait. I would just call and wait to hear what he’d say.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And my father, he knew exactly where to draw the line because he was in the exact same position with his own father since his own father was still around. And then he had a son, too, right? And he understood me, how I felt about him, since his relationship with his own father was the same way. And in that sense, back then, my father really kept me grounded mentally. He even told me, he even told me something once. Do you know how diamonds are, like, actually made? Under great pressure.
And my father, he knew exactly where to draw the line because he was in the exact same position with his own father since his own father was still around. And then he had a son, too, right? And he understood me, how I felt about him, since his relationship with his own father was the same way. And in that sense, back then, my father really kept me grounded mentally. He even told me, he even told me something once. Do you know how diamonds are, like, actually made? Under great pressure.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He says, “You’re under great pressure, and you have a choice. You can break down and give up, or you can get through it all properly, clearly, with dignity. Go in, prepare right, make weight, recover, go in, win, and settle it once and for all.” And those exact kinds of moments, they really, they deeply impacted me.
He says, “You’re under great pressure, and you have a choice. You can break down and give up, or you can get through it all properly, clearly, with dignity. Go in, prepare right, make weight, recover, go in, win, and settle it once and for all.” And those exact kinds of moments, they really, they deeply impacted me.
Lex Fridman
So because of those words, you could cut everything off? Focus.
So because of those words, you could cut everything off? Focus.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well-
Well-
Lex Fridman
Mentally.
Mentally.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Mentally. Like, if a million people showed up right there and told me right outside where I was staying, at the hotel, right? Like, if a million people gathered right under my window and said, “Hey, we’ve got your back.” And honestly, just one call from my father, it wouldn’t even compare, because that one call from my father, that one piece of advice, his support, his voice, it charged me up way more than absolutely everything else combined.
Mentally. Like, if a million people showed up right there and told me right outside where I was staying, at the hotel, right? Like, if a million people gathered right under my window and said, “Hey, we’ve got your back.” And honestly, just one call from my father, it wouldn’t even compare, because that one call from my father, that one piece of advice, his support, his voice, it charged me up way more than absolutely everything else combined.
Lex Fridman
But I must say, José Aldo, who is one of the greatest fighters of all time, and still Conor was arguably able to psychologically break him. But with you, it seems like Conor was not able to mentally affect you. Did he manage to get into your head even a little?
But I must say, José Aldo, who is one of the greatest fighters of all time, and still Conor was arguably able to psychologically break him. But with you, it seems like Conor was not able to mentally affect you. Did he manage to get into your head even a little?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
No, not at all. I had a clear understanding that physically and mentally I was just way stronger than him. I didn’t doubt myself for even 1%. Well, people, they can say whatever they want. He’s got a massive fan base too. Maybe they won’t agree with that. But the Almighty gave me this unshakable confidence that is just really hard for me to even put into words. And I just deeply believe that I was better than him and that I was stronger than him, and that in this matchup, well, I was supposed to win. I just had this rock solid faith in myself.
No, not at all. I had a clear understanding that physically and mentally I was just way stronger than him. I didn’t doubt myself for even 1%. Well, people, they can say whatever they want. He’s got a massive fan base too. Maybe they won’t agree with that. But the Almighty gave me this unshakable confidence that is just really hard for me to even put into words. And I just deeply believe that I was better than him and that I was stronger than him, and that in this matchup, well, I was supposed to win. I just had this rock solid faith in myself.
Khabib’s toughest fight
Lex Fridman
Up until that moment, is it fair to say that this was your toughest fight?
Up until that moment, is it fair to say that this was your toughest fight?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Up until that moment?
Up until that moment?
Lex Fridman
Correct.
Correct.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
One hundred percent. Because fighting’s all psychology, you know? It’s a mental game. Mentally speaking, that was my toughest fight. At that point, yeah. But a tougher fight came later.
One hundred percent. Because fighting’s all psychology, you know? It’s a mental game. Mentally speaking, that was my toughest fight. At that point, yeah. But a tougher fight came later.
Lex Fridman
With Gaethje?
With Gaethje?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
With Gaethje.
With Gaethje.
Lex Fridman
There were a lot of factors that made it so tough.
There were a lot of factors that made it so tough.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
So can you explain? You said somewhere that actually, unfortunately, or at least from my perspective, unfortunately, we never got to see your absolute limit. Were you, uh-
So can you explain? You said somewhere that actually, unfortunately, or at least from my perspective, unfortunately, we never got to see your absolute limit. Were you, uh-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Not in fights, no. You’ve never seen my limit in fights.
Not in fights, no. You’ve never seen my limit in fights.
Lex Fridman
But you said that Gaethje was the closest to it ’cause of the whole process. Can you explain why it was a tough fight, your last one?
But you said that Gaethje was the closest to it ’cause of the whole process. Can you explain why it was a tough fight, your last one?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
First and foremost, it was because I had lost my father. It was hard to pull myself together. Everything piled up at once. My father was gone. And training without my father, without the person I was doing all of this for, the person I wanted to become champion for, first and foremost, to prove to him that I could become the best. And then the training camp itself, physically I was not in the best shape. I had injury after injury after injury. But mentally speaking, I stayed completely sharp. Well, this is when you got injuries, your mental game can slip a little, or things at home are going bad. All of that impacts a person. One, two, three, four. All these things affect you. You become, let’s say not sharp. You lose your fire.
First and foremost, it was because I had lost my father. It was hard to pull myself together. Everything piled up at once. My father was gone. And training without my father, without the person I was doing all of this for, the person I wanted to become champion for, first and foremost, to prove to him that I could become the best. And then the training camp itself, physically I was not in the best shape. I had injury after injury after injury. But mentally speaking, I stayed completely sharp. Well, this is when you got injuries, your mental game can slip a little, or things at home are going bad. All of that impacts a person. One, two, three, four. All these things affect you. You become, let’s say not sharp. You lose your fire.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Your fire leaves you, your focus leaves you, your head is somewhere else. Even though you are physically there, mentally you are somewhere else. But I always stayed there. I knew it. Nobody had any idea that was going to be my last fight. No one knew about the talk I had with my mother.
Your fire leaves you, your focus leaves you, your head is somewhere else. Even though you are physically there, mentally you are somewhere else. But I always stayed there. I knew it. Nobody had any idea that was going to be my last fight. No one knew about the talk I had with my mother.
Lex Fridman
But you knew and you were sure?
But you knew and you were sure?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, I knew for myself. This is my last fight. I was never going to step into the cage again. I knew it, and I had to finish it right then and there because putting myself through all of that yet again, it would have just been too hard on me if I got injured and the fight fell through. And putting my mother through all that stress again. I knew that all the anxiety I go through for three months leading up to a fight, my mother goes through it too. I understood all of that. I wanted to put an end to it because we’d already had that talk. We already had an agreement. All of that combined, I mean, mentally it just– I was, you know, I was right on the edge. Like, it was a fine line and I really was on the edge.
Well, I knew for myself. This is my last fight. I was never going to step into the cage again. I knew it, and I had to finish it right then and there because putting myself through all of that yet again, it would have just been too hard on me if I got injured and the fight fell through. And putting my mother through all that stress again. I knew that all the anxiety I go through for three months leading up to a fight, my mother goes through it too. I understood all of that. I wanted to put an end to it because we’d already had that talk. We already had an agreement. All of that combined, I mean, mentally it just– I was, you know, I was right on the edge. Like, it was a fine line and I really was on the edge.
Lex Fridman
And I heard or maybe read somewhere that you said you were already starting to miss it while the fight was still going on.
And I heard or maybe read somewhere that you said you were already starting to miss it while the fight was still going on.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, inside the octagon. I knew it would never happen again. I stepped in there and I just took it all in. I was fighting and just every single moment, every moment, every single move, I felt it deep down. And in my head, I already knew this was the final run. Everything I’d been doing my entire life, it all came down to this. That competitive rush, I’ll never feel that anywhere else. I knew deep down this was my last fight.
Yeah, inside the octagon. I knew it would never happen again. I stepped in there and I just took it all in. I was fighting and just every single moment, every moment, every single move, I felt it deep down. And in my head, I already knew this was the final run. Everything I’d been doing my entire life, it all came down to this. That competitive rush, I’ll never feel that anywhere else. I knew deep down this was my last fight.
Lex Fridman
What kind of feelings were those?
What kind of feelings were those?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I’ve never felt anything like that again. Those feelings could only be experienced right there on that exact day, that very evening, with that opponent inside that cage. I’ve never had them before that night and never had them since. And I don’t think I’ll ever be able to feel that way again. I think Buvaisar said that these feelings, standing on the podium, becoming an Olympic champion, you only feel them in that moment when they announce you. You step onto the podium. That’s it. They announced you. You won. You leave. That’s it. You only feel them there. You don’t feel them anywhere else. And athletes live for those feelings. They train their whole lives for them.
I’ve never felt anything like that again. Those feelings could only be experienced right there on that exact day, that very evening, with that opponent inside that cage. I’ve never had them before that night and never had them since. And I don’t think I’ll ever be able to feel that way again. I think Buvaisar said that these feelings, standing on the podium, becoming an Olympic champion, you only feel them in that moment when they announce you. You step onto the podium. That’s it. They announced you. You won. You leave. That’s it. You only feel them there. You don’t feel them anywhere else. And athletes live for those feelings. They train their whole lives for them.
Lex Fridman
Do you ever think about that? That in our lives, if we’re lucky, we only get maybe one or two moments like that at that absolute peak.
Do you ever think about that? That in our lives, if we’re lucky, we only get maybe one or two moments like that at that absolute peak.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. Yes. Yes. Very rarely. It’s so rare. What is happiness really? The way I see it is when you experience certain feelings for a very short time. You can’t be constantly happy. Like you achieve something and then you’re happy for years. It just doesn’t work that way. The Almighty didn’t build us that way. You get there even when you become a champion and you fully feel that moment, you win. And then you wake up the next morning and that’s it. Is that all I worked for? There’s nothing more like that. You know? Like, can I have seconds? You can’t have seconds. It’s like in our cafeteria. Can I have seconds? So well, you become champion, you win, then you wake up the next day. That’s it. Your daily routine continues. It doesn’t end.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Very rarely. It’s so rare. What is happiness really? The way I see it is when you experience certain feelings for a very short time. You can’t be constantly happy. Like you achieve something and then you’re happy for years. It just doesn’t work that way. The Almighty didn’t build us that way. You get there even when you become a champion and you fully feel that moment, you win. And then you wake up the next morning and that’s it. Is that all I worked for? There’s nothing more like that. You know? Like, can I have seconds? You can’t have seconds. It’s like in our cafeteria. Can I have seconds? So well, you become champion, you win, then you wake up the next day. That’s it. Your daily routine continues. It doesn’t end.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You’ve already got different things going on, different problems, other tasks now, and you’re like, “It all went by so fast.” Then you wake up the next day, pack your bags, head to the airport, fly out, land back home, everyone’s celebrating. And just like that, the next day everyone’s gone. That’s it. Everyone lives their own life. And well… But later on, there are moments, well, you know, when you still feel the impact of that success, let’s say. Like let’s say public recognition, for example, people’s recognition and recognition is legacy. A lot of people get it twisted when we start talking about legacy. What even is a legacy? What does legacy mean, right? For me personally, it is public recognition.
You’ve already got different things going on, different problems, other tasks now, and you’re like, “It all went by so fast.” Then you wake up the next day, pack your bags, head to the airport, fly out, land back home, everyone’s celebrating. And just like that, the next day everyone’s gone. That’s it. Everyone lives their own life. And well… But later on, there are moments, well, you know, when you still feel the impact of that success, let’s say. Like let’s say public recognition, for example, people’s recognition and recognition is legacy. A lot of people get it twisted when we start talking about legacy. What even is a legacy? What does legacy mean, right? For me personally, it is public recognition.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Like when people come up to you, like parents come up with their kid and they say, “You know, you inspire our son to get into sports. You’re a real role model for him.” And in that exact moment, it’s like you just– you start to realize that none of this was in vain. But here’s the thing. Does everyone approach every champion like that? Every successful person? Do people even come up to them at all? That’s the question. There are people who became champions. There are people who rose to the top of their field, but they just don’t inspire anyone.
Like when people come up to you, like parents come up with their kid and they say, “You know, you inspire our son to get into sports. You’re a real role model for him.” And in that exact moment, it’s like you just– you start to realize that none of this was in vain. But here’s the thing. Does everyone approach every champion like that? Every successful person? Do people even come up to them at all? That’s the question. There are people who became champions. There are people who rose to the top of their field, but they just don’t inspire anyone.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And well, people look at you like, “Yeah, you were a champion, you know, but nobody wants to be like you.” There are so many people like that who achieve success, but they, mm, they don’t inspire the younger generation because the youth, they look at you and they just don’t see you as a good person. And looking at it that way, sports, it’s such a double-edged sword.
And well, people look at you like, “Yeah, you were a champion, you know, but nobody wants to be like you.” There are so many people like that who achieve success, but they, mm, they don’t inspire the younger generation because the youth, they look at you and they just don’t see you as a good person. And looking at it that way, sports, it’s such a double-edged sword.
Lex Fridman
They lost themselves in it when they became champions. Or maybe they never truly were.
They lost themselves in it when they became champions. Or maybe they never truly were.
Greatest MMA fighters of all time
Lex Fridman
If we can, I want to talk about MMA and football in that same context. Let’s start with MMA. Who do you think are the greatest fighters of all time? You said you have a few favorites. Shogun, Georges St-Pierre, and Fedor Emelianenko. Let’s talk about those fighters and maybe others who interest you. They all had different distinct styles. So tell me why Shogun. You’ve always said that he was important to you as a fighter, and naturally he had legendary moments in Pride in two thousand and five.
If we can, I want to talk about MMA and football in that same context. Let’s start with MMA. Who do you think are the greatest fighters of all time? You said you have a few favorites. Shogun, Georges St-Pierre, and Fedor Emelianenko. Let’s talk about those fighters and maybe others who interest you. They all had different distinct styles. So tell me why Shogun. You’ve always said that he was important to you as a fighter, and naturally he had legendary moments in Pride in two thousand and five.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
His soccer kick.
His soccer kick.
Lex Fridman
Yes, that’s right.
Yes, that’s right.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, Shogun Rua, he when I was fifteen, sixteen years old, he was the Pride champion. At that time, for me, it was the best organization in the world. The best fighters in the world competed there. Fedor, Cro Cop, Shogun, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva. Man, they had everybody. Overeem, Dan Henderson, the Nogueira brothers, the Emelianenko brothers. They were the best at that time for me and honestly for MMA as a whole. And right there in second place, in my opinion, shining right behind Fedor was Shogun. And the way he fights, no matter how they took him down, he’d get right back up. They couldn’t do a thing to him. Yeah, his wrestling was lacking, but his striking, Thai clinch, punches, kicks, knees. When he landed those soccer kicks, well, he really appealed to me as a fighter.
Well, Shogun Rua, he when I was fifteen, sixteen years old, he was the Pride champion. At that time, for me, it was the best organization in the world. The best fighters in the world competed there. Fedor, Cro Cop, Shogun, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva. Man, they had everybody. Overeem, Dan Henderson, the Nogueira brothers, the Emelianenko brothers. They were the best at that time for me and honestly for MMA as a whole. And right there in second place, in my opinion, shining right behind Fedor was Shogun. And the way he fights, no matter how they took him down, he’d get right back up. They couldn’t do a thing to him. Yeah, his wrestling was lacking, but his striking, Thai clinch, punches, kicks, knees. When he landed those soccer kicks, well, he really appealed to me as a fighter.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Very calm, careful, very emotionally restrained, and his fight style. His style was actually at a very high level. The way he fought, no other fighter ever did. At that time, he really impressed me. Then he crossed over to the UFC and became the UFC champion. And UFC fights and the Pride fights at that time, I didn’t have a computer, internet, none of that. I remember there was this video rental place. We’d grab tapes and watch all these fights with my father. Mauricio Shogun Rua to me was like the gold standard of a fighter back then. I’d say right alongside Fedor and Georges St-Pierre.
Very calm, careful, very emotionally restrained, and his fight style. His style was actually at a very high level. The way he fought, no other fighter ever did. At that time, he really impressed me. Then he crossed over to the UFC and became the UFC champion. And UFC fights and the Pride fights at that time, I didn’t have a computer, internet, none of that. I remember there was this video rental place. We’d grab tapes and watch all these fights with my father. Mauricio Shogun Rua to me was like the gold standard of a fighter back then. I’d say right alongside Fedor and Georges St-Pierre.
Lex Fridman
And by the way, when you watched the fights with your father, did you watch them for fun or analyze them too?
And by the way, when you watched the fights with your father, did you watch them for fun or analyze them too?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Mostly we analyzed them. My father always loved to analyze fights. We’d sit like this and he’d say this, this, chokes, striking, wrestling. We were constantly analyzing. There was a fight in two thousand and six or two thousand and seven. I don’t even remember the exact year. Approximately around that time when Georges St-Pierre fought Sean Sherk. We even re-watched that fight a couple of times. Then Georges St-Pierre fought B.J. Penn, the second fight, I think, after the fourth round when there was a stoppage. Then, well, there were many, many fights and my father actually admired the fighting style, the fighting style of Georges St-Pierre. He really impressed us. And my father, my father always emphasized his timing of takedowns after striking, how he closed the distance.
Mostly we analyzed them. My father always loved to analyze fights. We’d sit like this and he’d say this, this, chokes, striking, wrestling. We were constantly analyzing. There was a fight in two thousand and six or two thousand and seven. I don’t even remember the exact year. Approximately around that time when Georges St-Pierre fought Sean Sherk. We even re-watched that fight a couple of times. Then Georges St-Pierre fought B.J. Penn, the second fight, I think, after the fourth round when there was a stoppage. Then, well, there were many, many fights and my father actually admired the fighting style, the fighting style of Georges St-Pierre. He really impressed us. And my father, my father always emphasized his timing of takedowns after striking, how he closed the distance.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And honestly, my whole, you know, like teenage conscious years growing up, like my formative years transitioning into an adult, it was all tied to Pride in its prime. And after the UFC bought Pride and those fighters crossed over, that whole boom in 2006, ‘7, ‘8 and ‘9, the rise of the UFC, I remember that era so vividly. My father and I re-watched so many of those UFC fights.
And honestly, my whole, you know, like teenage conscious years growing up, like my formative years transitioning into an adult, it was all tied to Pride in its prime. And after the UFC bought Pride and those fighters crossed over, that whole boom in 2006, ‘7, ‘8 and ‘9, the rise of the UFC, I remember that era so vividly. My father and I re-watched so many of those UFC fights.
Lex Fridman
Well, I have to ask about Fedor. What can you say about him? He had some legendary fights. He beat Cro Cop, Big Nog, Mark Coleman.
Well, I have to ask about Fedor. What can you say about him? He had some legendary fights. He beat Cro Cop, Big Nog, Mark Coleman.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, and Kevin Randleman. And then he had those legendary fights with the Japanese fighters who were big stars over there. Man, I loved it. Honestly, he inspired me just by the fact that he was from Russia and he was a Sambo fighter. He was closer to our school of training, Sambo, combat Sambo. And there was this moment back in 2004, the Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship. Can you imagine? 2004, the Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship, and Fedor showed up. He showed up.
Yeah, and Kevin Randleman. And then he had those legendary fights with the Japanese fighters who were big stars over there. Man, I loved it. Honestly, he inspired me just by the fact that he was from Russia and he was a Sambo fighter. He was closer to our school of training, Sambo, combat Sambo. And there was this moment back in 2004, the Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship. Can you imagine? 2004, the Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship, and Fedor showed up. He showed up.
Lex Fridman
He came.
He came.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
To compete in the Dagestan Open Combat Sambo Championship while being the reigning Pride champion. I was 15 years old at the time. I was right there in the venue. My father actually invited him. He was sending out invitations to different schools back then. It was Stary Oskol where he used to train. Fedor’s coaches were sent an invitation. He came with his brother, Alexander. They both made it to the finals back then. I just remember $5,000, $3,000, $1,000, first, second, third place. At heavyweight, they gave a car. When the two brothers arrived, they beat everyone to get to the finals. They didn’t fight each other. One of them took first place. That was Fedor. Alexander took second place. I remember back then when he was warming up, I was standing next to him while he warmed up.
To compete in the Dagestan Open Combat Sambo Championship while being the reigning Pride champion. I was 15 years old at the time. I was right there in the venue. My father actually invited him. He was sending out invitations to different schools back then. It was Stary Oskol where he used to train. Fedor’s coaches were sent an invitation. He came with his brother, Alexander. They both made it to the finals back then. I just remember $5,000, $3,000, $1,000, first, second, third place. At heavyweight, they gave a car. When the two brothers arrived, they beat everyone to get to the finals. They didn’t fight each other. One of them took first place. That was Fedor. Alexander took second place. I remember back then when he was warming up, I was standing next to him while he warmed up.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It was this building, you know, a venue that fits maybe 1,500 people, and over there was this partition, like a wall, and everyone was warming up behind that wall. At that time, well, practically very few people even knew who Fedor was, but I knew Fedor. I knew who he was, that he was the Pride champion. At that time, he beat Nogueira, beat Mark Coleman, beat Randleman. This was before his championship fight against Cro Cop. I would come over and just sit there watching how he warmed up, what he did. I just remember very well, I don’t know, maybe Fedor will see this podcast. He had a thermos. He had a thermos, and he was just drinking tea. And I remember he fought Ibragim Magomedov. He was also a legendary fighter of ours, a heavyweight who fought in Pride, too. He fought against him.
It was this building, you know, a venue that fits maybe 1,500 people, and over there was this partition, like a wall, and everyone was warming up behind that wall. At that time, well, practically very few people even knew who Fedor was, but I knew Fedor. I knew who he was, that he was the Pride champion. At that time, he beat Nogueira, beat Mark Coleman, beat Randleman. This was before his championship fight against Cro Cop. I would come over and just sit there watching how he warmed up, what he did. I just remember very well, I don’t know, maybe Fedor will see this podcast. He had a thermos. He had a thermos, and he was just drinking tea. And I remember he fought Ibragim Magomedov. He was also a legendary fighter of ours, a heavyweight who fought in Pride, too. He fought against him.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It was either his first or second fight, and he was warming up incredibly well. I remember how he was warming up his nose and his ears. I watched him, and it was unusual for me at that time. I never warmed up my nose and ears. I just remember how Fedor was really working on his nose, his ears, his whole face. And he went, fought, came back. This was in Makhachkala 2004. It’s the same as a UFC champion now coming and fighting at the Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship. Can you imagine that? Back then, it was the best heavyweight organization in the world. He comes there and fights. So he finished a fight, goes back, and he had this big thermos with him. His team was sitting separately over there. He was drinking tea.
It was either his first or second fight, and he was warming up incredibly well. I remember how he was warming up his nose and his ears. I watched him, and it was unusual for me at that time. I never warmed up my nose and ears. I just remember how Fedor was really working on his nose, his ears, his whole face. And he went, fought, came back. This was in Makhachkala 2004. It’s the same as a UFC champion now coming and fighting at the Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship. Can you imagine that? Back then, it was the best heavyweight organization in the world. He comes there and fights. So he finished a fight, goes back, and he had this big thermos with him. His team was sitting separately over there. He was drinking tea.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He just fought, walked back, poured some tea, and drank it. He had something to snack on with it, maybe honey or something. I just don’t remember. And I was, “Wow, Fedor is right here.” For me, that was just such a, you know, great source of motivation back then. It’s really hard to put those emotions into words. By the way, maybe you could ask him about that on the podcast.
He just fought, walked back, poured some tea, and drank it. He had something to snack on with it, maybe honey or something. I just don’t remember. And I was, “Wow, Fedor is right here.” For me, that was just such a, you know, great source of motivation back then. It’s really hard to put those emotions into words. By the way, maybe you could ask him about that on the podcast.
Lex Fridman
About the thermos?
About the thermos?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
No, no. About the tea. What was in it? Thyme? Mint? What did he put in there?
No, no. About the tea. What was in it? Thyme? Mint? What did he put in there?
Lex Fridman
Well, I would love to talk to him on this podcast, but I think he rarely does interviews.
Well, I would love to talk to him on this podcast, but I think he rarely does interviews.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I think you can reach him. I can help you.
I think you can reach him. I can help you.
Lex Fridman
Well, if you could put in a good word for me.
Well, if you could put in a good word for me.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, of course. I think it would be interesting for people to hear him.
Yeah, of course. I think it would be interesting for people to hear him.
Lex Fridman
Absolutely. But psychologically, he’s kind of like you in a way.
Absolutely. But psychologically, he’s kind of like you in a way.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You mean calm?
You mean calm?
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Yes, that calmness. You see the Pride era, those huge fights, those really tough matchups, and still he always stayed calm.
Yeah. Yes, that calmness. You see the Pride era, those huge fights, those really tough matchups, and still he always stayed calm.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It’s his aura.
It’s his aura.
Lex Fridman
Yeah?
Yeah?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I don’t know about others, but for me, that was his aura. The fact that he’d come out with such a calm, cool-headed look and knock out giants, strong fighters at that time, right? You know, we used to joke about his face, that he kind of looks like a kindergarten teacher, you know? And then he goes out there and knocks out absolute giants. And he was like that. Both before and after the fight, he never showed much emotion. But I think we’re a little different in that regard. I think Fedor, by temperament, is calmer than I am. That’s my impression. But with that cold-blooded calmness of his, I think he got to a lot of people mentally.
I don’t know about others, but for me, that was his aura. The fact that he’d come out with such a calm, cool-headed look and knock out giants, strong fighters at that time, right? You know, we used to joke about his face, that he kind of looks like a kindergarten teacher, you know? And then he goes out there and knocks out absolute giants. And he was like that. Both before and after the fight, he never showed much emotion. But I think we’re a little different in that regard. I think Fedor, by temperament, is calmer than I am. That’s my impression. But with that cold-blooded calmness of his, I think he got to a lot of people mentally.
Lex Fridman
It’s like something’s happening inside both of you, like something’s boiling inside. So when we look at your face-
It’s like something’s happening inside both of you, like something’s boiling inside. So when we look at your face-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Of course it’s boiling. What do you think? You know what? It’s one thing when it’s boiling inside and you show it, but there are some who can’t hide their feelings. But it’s a different thing when it’s boiling inside and on the surface you stay cold, cold-blooded, calm, and you can handle all these different emotions that hit you at the same time. There are a lot of them, and they all hit differently. When you compete, what makes a fighter, an athlete at the highest level so unique is that so many different emotions hit you at the same time. Fear, nerves, the fact that people are watching you, the thought that you might perform badly, that you might not show what you’ve trained for, that you might mess it up, that you might, I don’t know, fall.
Of course it’s boiling. What do you think? You know what? It’s one thing when it’s boiling inside and you show it, but there are some who can’t hide their feelings. But it’s a different thing when it’s boiling inside and on the surface you stay cold, cold-blooded, calm, and you can handle all these different emotions that hit you at the same time. There are a lot of them, and they all hit differently. When you compete, what makes a fighter, an athlete at the highest level so unique is that so many different emotions hit you at the same time. Fear, nerves, the fact that people are watching you, the thought that you might perform badly, that you might not show what you’ve trained for, that you might mess it up, that you might, I don’t know, fall.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
So much enters your head, and you can put each emotion where it belongs. So, you know, if all of that gets inside your head and turns into chaos, you won’t be able to handle it emotionally, but you stay cold-blooded. And you know that if you don’t handle these emotions that are coming at you, if you don’t handle this pressure, then it will be difficult for you to compete because the main competition is against yourself first. You fight yourself, you beat yourself, and only then do you actually start competing with your opponent. So I think it happens to everyone, not just him or me. The big difference here is how much you can control it.
So much enters your head, and you can put each emotion where it belongs. So, you know, if all of that gets inside your head and turns into chaos, you won’t be able to handle it emotionally, but you stay cold-blooded. And you know that if you don’t handle these emotions that are coming at you, if you don’t handle this pressure, then it will be difficult for you to compete because the main competition is against yourself first. You fight yourself, you beat yourself, and only then do you actually start competing with your opponent. So I think it happens to everyone, not just him or me. The big difference here is how much you can control it.
Lex Fridman
Fedor himself famously said, “The only person who can defeat me is me. The only person who can beat me is me.”
Fedor himself famously said, “The only person who can defeat me is me. The only person who can beat me is me.”
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He was talking about that fight with yourself, I’m sure. Because if you lose to yourself, then you’ll lose to your opponent very easily.
He was talking about that fight with yourself, I’m sure. Because if you lose to yourself, then you’ll lose to your opponent very easily.
Lex Fridman
There’s an interesting thing I came across. Adam Saitiev said that high-level athletes often make a mistake, and what they do wrong is that when they feel fear, they tend to ignore it. He believes that you have to confront that fear and overcome it.
There’s an interesting thing I came across. Adam Saitiev said that high-level athletes often make a mistake, and what they do wrong is that when they feel fear, they tend to ignore it. He believes that you have to confront that fear and overcome it.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. Psychologists talk about how to work through those thoughts when they arise. You know, when fear comes up and you feel it, that’s absolutely normal. It’s what the Almighty put in us. People get scared, people get cold, people feel pain, people get hungry. These are things that are inside all of us. The real question is how you deal with them, how you overcome them within yourself. 100% you can’t ignore it, and you must work through it. You have to answer the questions, “Why did this happen? Could I do it this way instead?” And this comes only with experience, only with experience. And the more you compete, you know, the more you train and the more you face it. Some people actually try to avoid that moment. But the more you face it, the better and better you’ll become each time.
Yes. Psychologists talk about how to work through those thoughts when they arise. You know, when fear comes up and you feel it, that’s absolutely normal. It’s what the Almighty put in us. People get scared, people get cold, people feel pain, people get hungry. These are things that are inside all of us. The real question is how you deal with them, how you overcome them within yourself. 100% you can’t ignore it, and you must work through it. You have to answer the questions, “Why did this happen? Could I do it this way instead?” And this comes only with experience, only with experience. And the more you compete, you know, the more you train and the more you face it. Some people actually try to avoid that moment. But the more you face it, the better and better you’ll become each time.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It’s the same with athletes. They get nervous. That’s what we call the jitters, right? At first, whenever someone competes, they get the jitters. But when you keep competing over and over again, you gradually learn how to channel those nerves in the right direction. Then it gets easier for you. And in order to get there, you have to compete. And what is competition? You meet this fear face to face. You don’t avoid it. A lot of guys are staying away from competitions. When they’re young, they have this tension, this self-consciousness, this fear, the jitters. They’re nervous. They can’t sleep at night. You have to go through all of that yourself. Nobody can do it for you. A coach can train you. A coach can teach you.
It’s the same with athletes. They get nervous. That’s what we call the jitters, right? At first, whenever someone competes, they get the jitters. But when you keep competing over and over again, you gradually learn how to channel those nerves in the right direction. Then it gets easier for you. And in order to get there, you have to compete. And what is competition? You meet this fear face to face. You don’t avoid it. A lot of guys are staying away from competitions. When they’re young, they have this tension, this self-consciousness, this fear, the jitters. They’re nervous. They can’t sleep at night. You have to go through all of that yourself. Nobody can do it for you. A coach can train you. A coach can teach you.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
But all he can say is, “Practice, practice, practice.” Then there’s you, alone with your own feelings. When you lie down, when you wake up, when you walk, when you’re by yourself, when you eat, there are so many moments when a person has to go through all of this on his own. And when you have to go through this over and over again, some people back away. They don’t want to face it. And what do you need for that? Patience. You have to come and endure it and go through all of it, through your skin, through your muscles, through your mind. You must let all of this pass through you and overcome it. And each time you’ll get better at it.
But all he can say is, “Practice, practice, practice.” Then there’s you, alone with your own feelings. When you lie down, when you wake up, when you walk, when you’re by yourself, when you eat, there are so many moments when a person has to go through all of this on his own. And when you have to go through this over and over again, some people back away. They don’t want to face it. And what do you need for that? Patience. You have to come and endure it and go through all of it, through your skin, through your muscles, through your mind. You must let all of this pass through you and overcome it. And each time you’ll get better at it.
Lex Fridman
A good example of that is the third person you mentioned, Georges St-Pierre, who by the way sends his regards. I train with him a lot, and he has a very deep respect for you. But he didn’t give me much good advice because when I told him I was going to train with you, he told me… What did he say? He texted me, “If you die, you die.” That’s what he said.
A good example of that is the third person you mentioned, Georges St-Pierre, who by the way sends his regards. I train with him a lot, and he has a very deep respect for you. But he didn’t give me much good advice because when I told him I was going to train with you, he told me… What did he say? He texted me, “If you die, you die.” That’s what he said.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Good advice. He’s a wise man.
Good advice. He’s a wise man.
Lex Fridman
Didn’t support me and said, “Say hi.”
Didn’t support me and said, “Say hi.”
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Tell him I say hi, too.
Tell him I say hi, too.
Lex Fridman
As we were talking about, he himself has spoken about this, that he was afraid and always felt fear before every single fight. That’s interesting. One of the greatest fighters-
As we were talking about, he himself has spoken about this, that he was afraid and always felt fear before every single fight. That’s interesting. One of the greatest fighters-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
In history, yeah.
In history, yeah.
Lex Fridman
And even he feels fear.
And even he feels fear.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He’s not afraid to admit it. Everybody has fear. Everybody gets afraid. But I don’t know how big that fear was for him. I really don’t know. We never discussed it. But I’ve watched a lot of his interviews, his fights, and his training camps. The way he analyzed his past fights and all that, the way I see it, he’s a very sensitive person. There are people like that too. Some guys take all of this very lightly. Like, “Okay, we fight tomorrow. We’ll see who my opponent is and how he shows up, right?” But there are others who find it very difficult to handle psychologically. But the Almighty gave me this kind of calmness. Sometimes I’d get to the arena, and they bring you in four hours before the fight. They have to weigh you, they have to do doping control, and they have to tape you up.
He’s not afraid to admit it. Everybody has fear. Everybody gets afraid. But I don’t know how big that fear was for him. I really don’t know. We never discussed it. But I’ve watched a lot of his interviews, his fights, and his training camps. The way he analyzed his past fights and all that, the way I see it, he’s a very sensitive person. There are people like that too. Some guys take all of this very lightly. Like, “Okay, we fight tomorrow. We’ll see who my opponent is and how he shows up, right?” But there are others who find it very difficult to handle psychologically. But the Almighty gave me this kind of calmness. Sometimes I’d get to the arena, and they bring you in four hours before the fight. They have to weigh you, they have to do doping control, and they have to tape you up.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
There are so many athletic commission procedures. Every state has different rules, how they bring you into the arena and all that. Sometimes I’d get there four hours early and think, “What am I supposed to do?” So I make myself a little bed and say, “Please keep it quiet.” I would lie down. I could sleep there for an hour, maybe an hour and a half. That’s it. Wake up, warm up, and then I could go out and fight. And some guys, they don’t sleep for two days before the fight. Believe me, there are fighters who don’t sleep the night before a fight, and it’s very hard on them. It’s not really fear. It’s hard to describe with just one emotion. It’s too many emotions that come over a person, and they can’t fall asleep.
There are so many athletic commission procedures. Every state has different rules, how they bring you into the arena and all that. Sometimes I’d get there four hours early and think, “What am I supposed to do?” So I make myself a little bed and say, “Please keep it quiet.” I would lie down. I could sleep there for an hour, maybe an hour and a half. That’s it. Wake up, warm up, and then I could go out and fight. And some guys, they don’t sleep for two days before the fight. Believe me, there are fighters who don’t sleep the night before a fight, and it’s very hard on them. It’s not really fear. It’s hard to describe with just one emotion. It’s too many emotions that come over a person, and they can’t fall asleep.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It’s panic, it’s fear, it’s worry, it’s nervousness, it’s the jitters. All of that builds up, and the person just can’t fall asleep. So in that regard, the Almighty gave me a little more calmness than others. I had, you know, such a cool head and calmness before the fights.
It’s panic, it’s fear, it’s worry, it’s nervousness, it’s the jitters. All of that builds up, and the person just can’t fall asleep. So in that regard, the Almighty gave me a little more calmness than others. I had, you know, such a cool head and calmness before the fights.
Coaching
Lex Fridman
Now you’re in this new position as a leader, and you’re looking at all these athletes, these young guys who are already at the very top of the world. And I think they’re all very different from one another psychologically, physically, and stylistically. What can you say as a coach? I know you’re not a coach, but as a leader, how do you figure out what each person needs? Like now we were watching Umar prepare. That each person needs something different.
Now you’re in this new position as a leader, and you’re looking at all these athletes, these young guys who are already at the very top of the world. And I think they’re all very different from one another psychologically, physically, and stylistically. What can you say as a coach? I know you’re not a coach, but as a leader, how do you figure out what each person needs? Like now we were watching Umar prepare. That each person needs something different.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, everyone is different. Different styles, different mentalities, different mindsets, different approaches to fight week and to preparation as a whole. But you have to adapt to all of it. Here, you can’t just take one approach. Let’s say we take my approach and apply it to everyone else, to Usman, Islam, and Umar. It doesn’t work like that. Everyone needs their own approach. I knew them since they were nobody, and I know them now when they are the best. So you have to treat each one differently. I’m very lucky to have Javier Mendez. He’s been by my side since 2012. And when I became a coach after I finished my career, he was there with me as a coach. I switched from being a fighter to a coaching role. My father was no longer with us.
Yes, everyone is different. Different styles, different mentalities, different mindsets, different approaches to fight week and to preparation as a whole. But you have to adapt to all of it. Here, you can’t just take one approach. Let’s say we take my approach and apply it to everyone else, to Usman, Islam, and Umar. It doesn’t work like that. Everyone needs their own approach. I knew them since they were nobody, and I know them now when they are the best. So you have to treat each one differently. I’m very lucky to have Javier Mendez. He’s been by my side since 2012. And when I became a coach after I finished my career, he was there with me as a coach. I switched from being a fighter to a coaching role. My father was no longer with us.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And together with Javier Mendes, we’ve been guiding them for these last six years. And his experience helps me tremendously because there is no coach, no MMA coach with the kind of results Javier Mendes has. You know? So many champions, double champions, UFC fighters. So many people have trained under him, from Frank Shamrock all the way to Islam Makhachev. So many fighters have trained under him, which makes things very easy for me because I have Javier Mendes by my side, and he can help me with so many things.
And together with Javier Mendes, we’ve been guiding them for these last six years. And his experience helps me tremendously because there is no coach, no MMA coach with the kind of results Javier Mendes has. You know? So many champions, double champions, UFC fighters. So many people have trained under him, from Frank Shamrock all the way to Islam Makhachev. So many fighters have trained under him, which makes things very easy for me because I have Javier Mendes by my side, and he can help me with so many things.
Lex Fridman
What do you think is the secret behind Javier’s genius? Why is he such a great coach for so many different athletes?
What do you think is the secret behind Javier’s genius? Why is he such a great coach for so many different athletes?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It’s the mental side of things. I’m not gonna say he’s one of the best at holding pads or anything like that, but his understanding of MMA itself, his approach to training camp, to the whole preparation process, and the amount of attention he pays to sparring inside the cage. I’m not talking about those sparring sessions with 50 people in the gym and everyone is sparring with each other. For example, when I was preparing for a five-round fight, he would always bring in two or three high-level opponents, constantly rotating in fresh sparring partners.
It’s the mental side of things. I’m not gonna say he’s one of the best at holding pads or anything like that, but his understanding of MMA itself, his approach to training camp, to the whole preparation process, and the amount of attention he pays to sparring inside the cage. I’m not talking about those sparring sessions with 50 people in the gym and everyone is sparring with each other. For example, when I was preparing for a five-round fight, he would always bring in two or three high-level opponents, constantly rotating in fresh sparring partners.
Lex Fridman
And he would watch and analyze.
And he would watch and analyze.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I don’t remember him ever missing a single sparring session since 2012. Can you imagine? 14 years have gone by, and right now we’re in training camp. He’s there for every training session, morning and evening. He’s at every sparring session, watching everyone, coaching them, giving advice, guiding them. He’s incredibly dedicated to what he does. He’s either all in or he steps away completely. He never shows up and gives only 50%. I remember one situation. Abubakar was getting ready to fight in WSOF, and I had another student fighting there as well. Abubakar went through the entire preparation with us, but the other guy didn’t. When we got there, I told the coach, “Coach, can you work his corner with me too?” He said, “You know, Khabib, I haven’t seen his preparation.
I don’t remember him ever missing a single sparring session since 2012. Can you imagine? 14 years have gone by, and right now we’re in training camp. He’s there for every training session, morning and evening. He’s at every sparring session, watching everyone, coaching them, giving advice, guiding them. He’s incredibly dedicated to what he does. He’s either all in or he steps away completely. He never shows up and gives only 50%. I remember one situation. Abubakar was getting ready to fight in WSOF, and I had another student fighting there as well. Abubakar went through the entire preparation with us, but the other guy didn’t. When we got there, I told the coach, “Coach, can you work his corner with me too?” He said, “You know, Khabib, I haven’t seen his preparation.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I don’t know what he’s capable of. He didn’t train under me. But since you’re asking, I’ll do it. But for the future, remember, I don’t really like to corner guys I haven’t prepared.” I didn’t understand him then, but now I do. This was 2016 or maybe 2017. I don’t want to be wrong. And now I understand. Now when people ask me, I’m like, “I didn’t prepare you. I don’t know how ready you are.” I’m not ready to go in there and give all my energy to someone who didn’t go through camp with me. Now I understand that. At that time, I told the coach, “Can you come out and corner him with me?” He said, “No problem.” We went out there, Abubakar won his fight, and the other guy’s fight ended in a draw. But that’s not really what I’m getting at.
I don’t know what he’s capable of. He didn’t train under me. But since you’re asking, I’ll do it. But for the future, remember, I don’t really like to corner guys I haven’t prepared.” I didn’t understand him then, but now I do. This was 2016 or maybe 2017. I don’t want to be wrong. And now I understand. Now when people ask me, I’m like, “I didn’t prepare you. I don’t know how ready you are.” I’m not ready to go in there and give all my energy to someone who didn’t go through camp with me. Now I understand that. At that time, I told the coach, “Can you come out and corner him with me?” He said, “No problem.” We went out there, Abubakar won his fight, and the other guy’s fight ended in a draw. But that’s not really what I’m getting at.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I’ve come to the point where if I haven’t trained someone for two, three, or four months, I don’t like to corner them because they didn’t go through a full training camp, and I don’t know how they’ll respond in the third, fourth, or fifth round. I don’t know how he prepared. I don’t know how ready he is to go into those deep waters. That’s why I try not to corner just anyone. I learned that from Javier.
I’ve come to the point where if I haven’t trained someone for two, three, or four months, I don’t like to corner them because they didn’t go through a full training camp, and I don’t know how they’ll respond in the third, fourth, or fifth round. I don’t know how he prepared. I don’t know how ready he is to go into those deep waters. That’s why I try not to corner just anyone. I learned that from Javier.
Lex Fridman
So you need to know he can go into those deep waters.
So you need to know he can go into those deep waters.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
How deep he can go. I need to know exactly what he’s capable of.
How deep he can go. I need to know exactly what he’s capable of.
Daniel Cormier
Lex Fridman
What can you say about one of the greatest fighters and athletes ever, Daniel DC Cormier, who you train with? You guys joke around all the time, so it’s easy to forget how great he really is. What can you say about him as a training partner, as a coach, as a person?
What can you say about one of the greatest fighters and athletes ever, Daniel DC Cormier, who you train with? You guys joke around all the time, so it’s easy to forget how great he really is. What can you say about him as a training partner, as a coach, as a person?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
When we talk about DC, we have to go back to 2004, 2008. He was a two-time Olympian. He represented Team USA at the Olympic Games, and that carries a lot of weight in this sport, especially in the 96-kilo division. And he is a two-time Olympian. Then he transitioned to MMA, won a few fights on the regional scene, went to Strikeforce, won fights there. They put him into the Grand Prix. He won the Grand Prix, became heavyweight champion, and then went to the UFC. When he moved to the UFC, he cut down to 205 pounds to make room for Cain Velasquez because they were best friends. Cain was the heavyweight champion. So he moved to 205, and they both became champions, one at light heavyweight and one at heavyweight. Later, when Cain lost the title, he moved to heavyweight and won there too.
When we talk about DC, we have to go back to 2004, 2008. He was a two-time Olympian. He represented Team USA at the Olympic Games, and that carries a lot of weight in this sport, especially in the 96-kilo division. And he is a two-time Olympian. Then he transitioned to MMA, won a few fights on the regional scene, went to Strikeforce, won fights there. They put him into the Grand Prix. He won the Grand Prix, became heavyweight champion, and then went to the UFC. When he moved to the UFC, he cut down to 205 pounds to make room for Cain Velasquez because they were best friends. Cain was the heavyweight champion. So he moved to 205, and they both became champions, one at light heavyweight and one at heavyweight. Later, when Cain lost the title, he moved to heavyweight and won there too.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He’s one of the most unique athletes who has ever lived. How many athletes do you know who competed at the World Championships, at the Olympic Games in freestyle wrestling, then transitioned to MMA and became Strikeforce champion, UFC light heavyweight champion, and UFC heavyweight champion? And he’s also remembered for his rivalry with one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Jon Jones. But by the time he fought Jon Jones, he was no longer at his peak. I think he was already pushing 40. Even though we have this friendly, joking relationship because he’s such a fun, interesting guy, as an athlete though, he’s truly one of a kind.
He’s one of the most unique athletes who has ever lived. How many athletes do you know who competed at the World Championships, at the Olympic Games in freestyle wrestling, then transitioned to MMA and became Strikeforce champion, UFC light heavyweight champion, and UFC heavyweight champion? And he’s also remembered for his rivalry with one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Jon Jones. But by the time he fought Jon Jones, he was no longer at his peak. I think he was already pushing 40. Even though we have this friendly, joking relationship because he’s such a fun, interesting guy, as an athlete though, he’s truly one of a kind.
Lex Fridman
As a commentator too, he’s very good with words.
As a commentator too, he’s very good with words.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Educated, well-mannered, strong. He has so many great qualities. Daniel Cormier is one of those people who I think can truly inspire others.
Educated, well-mannered, strong. He has so many great qualities. Daniel Cormier is one of those people who I think can truly inspire others.
Lex Fridman
So who usually wins when you guys wrestle? You or DC?
So who usually wins when you guys wrestle? You or DC?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, he’s got a few years on me. But back in my prime, when I was competing at lightweight, I weighed around 84, 85, maybe 86 kilos. DC was always around 107, 110. Those are completely different weight classes. DC was better at wrestling and as an Olympian too, all joking aside.
Well, he’s got a few years on me. But back in my prime, when I was competing at lightweight, I weighed around 84, 85, maybe 86 kilos. DC was always around 107, 110. Those are completely different weight classes. DC was better at wrestling and as an Olympian too, all joking aside.
Lex Fridman
So you feel-
So you feel-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Back then it was really tough, of course, but now it’s different. Now I can go after him. But I learned so much from Cormier. Honestly, so much. As a person, a wrestler, and a fighter. You know, we spent our best years together at AKA from 2012 to 2020. We’ve shared so many memories and moments together as well.
Back then it was really tough, of course, but now it’s different. Now I can go after him. But I learned so much from Cormier. Honestly, so much. As a person, a wrestler, and a fighter. You know, we spent our best years together at AKA from 2012 to 2020. We’ve shared so many memories and moments together as well.
Lex Fridman
I just think it’s a shame that people don’t talk about him as one of the top five, top 10.
I just think it’s a shame that people don’t talk about him as one of the top five, top 10.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, top 10 for sure. One of the top 10 greatest, no question. Yeah, I definitely think so.
Well, top 10 for sure. One of the top 10 greatest, no question. Yeah, I definitely think so.
Lex Fridman
It’s a shame, but you see this in football and in other sports too. One rivalry can overshadow an entire legacy. For DC, it’s Jon Jones.
It’s a shame, but you see this in football and in other sports too. One rivalry can overshadow an entire legacy. For DC, it’s Jon Jones.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, Jon Jones was the better athlete. There’s no doubt about that. But DC was right there with him. Yes, Jon Jones won, but DC gave him a real fight. He was that very person, you know, who actually made Jon Jones train harder. People shouldn’t forget that. I’m sure Jon Jones prepared for that fight like it was the hardest fight of his life.
Well, Jon Jones was the better athlete. There’s no doubt about that. But DC was right there with him. Yes, Jon Jones won, but DC gave him a real fight. He was that very person, you know, who actually made Jon Jones train harder. People shouldn’t forget that. I’m sure Jon Jones prepared for that fight like it was the hardest fight of his life.
Islam Makhachev
Lex Fridman
Well, we’ve talked about different athletes, about Umar, but now let’s talk about Islam Makhachev, one of your closest brothers, who’s at the very top of the world. You’ve known each other. You’ve trained together for more than 20 years. In your opinion, what makes him such a special wrestler and fighter? Why has he reached such heights? Why is he a great fighter?
Well, we’ve talked about different athletes, about Umar, but now let’s talk about Islam Makhachev, one of your closest brothers, who’s at the very top of the world. You’ve known each other. You’ve trained together for more than 20 years. In your opinion, what makes him such a special wrestler and fighter? Why has he reached such heights? Why is he a great fighter?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, let’s start with the fact that Islam has been doing this for his whole life, since childhood. And I’ve known him since childhood too. We went to the same school, lived in the same neighborhood, trained at the same gym, and he was my father’s student. And it’s worth mentioning, he was one of my father’s favorite students.
Well, let’s start with the fact that Islam has been doing this for his whole life, since childhood. And I’ve known him since childhood too. We went to the same school, lived in the same neighborhood, trained at the same gym, and he was my father’s student. And it’s worth mentioning, he was one of my father’s favorite students.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
One of the best students. My father saw in him this potential for greatness in how hard he trained. That’s what I was talking about at the beginning of the podcast. When you go into the dark, uncomfortable room and stay there for a long time, no matter how hard it gets. He knew how to make sacrifices. He was very disciplined. Nobody reaches this level by accident. It’s impossible without exceptional natural gifts. And he has them. He’s gifted. Allah blessed him with those gifts. And he’s deeply devoted to what he does. We basically grew up together, right? I’m three years older than Islam. And I was always a little bigger, a little older than him. So when we were amateurs, I competed in slightly heavier weight classes. But we worked together a lot.
One of the best students. My father saw in him this potential for greatness in how hard he trained. That’s what I was talking about at the beginning of the podcast. When you go into the dark, uncomfortable room and stay there for a long time, no matter how hard it gets. He knew how to make sacrifices. He was very disciplined. Nobody reaches this level by accident. It’s impossible without exceptional natural gifts. And he has them. He’s gifted. Allah blessed him with those gifts. And he’s deeply devoted to what he does. We basically grew up together, right? I’m three years older than Islam. And I was always a little bigger, a little older than him. So when we were amateurs, I competed in slightly heavier weight classes. But we worked together a lot.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And Islam benefited tremendously from training with me. We trained together for many years. And he never had to go anywhere to find a sparring partner because he always had one in the gym. So I developed by training with the older guys in the gym, the stronger guys, the better guys when I was young. Then when they left, I was the one in front. Islam kept growing, growing, growing. Now I left. Islam is the one in front. And now other guys are developing through him. This is a kind of chain that exists in a gym, in a training system that produces the best fighters in the world. And in this chain, Islam was always behind me. If I was behind someone, Islam was behind me. Now others are following. Islam, Usman, Amru, and other guys.
And Islam benefited tremendously from training with me. We trained together for many years. And he never had to go anywhere to find a sparring partner because he always had one in the gym. So I developed by training with the older guys in the gym, the stronger guys, the better guys when I was young. Then when they left, I was the one in front. Islam kept growing, growing, growing. Now I left. Islam is the one in front. And now other guys are developing through him. This is a kind of chain that exists in a gym, in a training system that produces the best fighters in the world. And in this chain, Islam was always behind me. If I was behind someone, Islam was behind me. Now others are following. Islam, Usman, Amru, and other guys.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You could put them against any of the best fighters in the world right now, and they would perform very well. So in this chain we’ve had since 2003, and now it’s already 2026, that’s 23 years. Islam was the one coming up behind me. And now there are younger guys coming up behind Islam. And it’s no secret that Islam will turn 35 in October. But what makes me happy is that there are younger guys coming up behind him. I left. Islam stepped in. One day Islam will leave too, and others will take his place. And this cycle, it never ends. It keeps going, and it keeps pulling the next generation forward. At the beginning, a lot of people are involved. But as you gradually climb higher, higher, and higher, the road gets narrower, and fewer and fewer people remain.
You could put them against any of the best fighters in the world right now, and they would perform very well. So in this chain we’ve had since 2003, and now it’s already 2026, that’s 23 years. Islam was the one coming up behind me. And now there are younger guys coming up behind Islam. And it’s no secret that Islam will turn 35 in October. But what makes me happy is that there are younger guys coming up behind him. I left. Islam stepped in. One day Islam will leave too, and others will take his place. And this cycle, it never ends. It keeps going, and it keeps pulling the next generation forward. At the beginning, a lot of people are involved. But as you gradually climb higher, higher, and higher, the road gets narrower, and fewer and fewer people remain.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And alongside Islam, a lot of guys were developing while training with me. But Islam made it all the way because of his work ethic, his discipline, and let’s call it sacrifice. He gave up a lot to reach this level. This isn’t easy. You have to make sacrifices. You have to make sacrifices. You have to give up parties. You have to sacrifice sleep. You have to sacrifice your time. There are so many things you have to give up. You have to dedicate your entire life to this sport, putting aside all the things that can distract you. You train, you sleep, you eat, you wake up, and then you do it all over again. Only then can you reach the level that Islam reached. That’s what makes him unique.
And alongside Islam, a lot of guys were developing while training with me. But Islam made it all the way because of his work ethic, his discipline, and let’s call it sacrifice. He gave up a lot to reach this level. This isn’t easy. You have to make sacrifices. You have to make sacrifices. You have to give up parties. You have to sacrifice sleep. You have to sacrifice your time. There are so many things you have to give up. You have to dedicate your entire life to this sport, putting aside all the things that can distract you. You train, you sleep, you eat, you wake up, and then you do it all over again. Only then can you reach the level that Islam reached. That’s what makes him unique.
Lex Fridman
Were there any small but interesting differences between you and Islam, psychologically speaking?
Were there any small but interesting differences between you and Islam, psychologically speaking?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
There are many. Psychologically, he’s very solid too. I’ve been around him through so many training camps and so many fights. He’s built very strong mentally. Of course, we’re different in certain things, but in terms of our fighter’s attitude toward their work, we have a lot in common. A lot.
There are many. Psychologically, he’s very solid too. I’ve been around him through so many training camps and so many fights. He’s built very strong mentally. Of course, we’re different in certain things, but in terms of our fighter’s attitude toward their work, we have a lot in common. A lot.
Lex Fridman
You also train a lot.
You also train a lot.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, absolutely. A lot.
Yeah, absolutely. A lot.
Lex Fridman
And I think he… Well, first I have to say, I watched you train yesterday, and it made me really happy to see that you still love this so deeply. You know, it’s hard to love something for such a long time.
And I think he… Well, first I have to say, I watched you train yesterday, and it made me really happy to see that you still love this so deeply. You know, it’s hard to love something for such a long time.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
People finish and move on. They retire and move on. But me, it’s been six years since I retired, and I still haven’t let go of wrestling, of competition. I still go to the gym, do cardio, lift, wrestle, grapple. I never let it go. It’s still with me. And yesterday I told you that last week I did 200 minutes of live grappling. This week is a little different though, because I’m just focused on Umar, traveling, and everything that comes with that. So this week it’s going to be less. Still, I wrestle. I don’t let go. I love it. I love this energy. I love that feeling after wrestling. You wrestle, let’s say 40 minutes. Yesterday I still wanted more. Just now I wrestled with you, with Islam, maybe 20 minutes, but still it’s not enough to get that feeling, that 100% feeling.
People finish and move on. They retire and move on. But me, it’s been six years since I retired, and I still haven’t let go of wrestling, of competition. I still go to the gym, do cardio, lift, wrestle, grapple. I never let it go. It’s still with me. And yesterday I told you that last week I did 200 minutes of live grappling. This week is a little different though, because I’m just focused on Umar, traveling, and everything that comes with that. So this week it’s going to be less. Still, I wrestle. I don’t let go. I love it. I love this energy. I love that feeling after wrestling. You wrestle, let’s say 40 minutes. Yesterday I still wanted more. Just now I wrestled with you, with Islam, maybe 20 minutes, but still it’s not enough to get that feeling, that 100% feeling.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I need around 40 minutes of wrestling, something like that. I don’t think most people listening to us will understand that. But I think some people watching, especially grappling and jujitsu fans, will understand me.
I need around 40 minutes of wrestling, something like that. I don’t think most people listening to us will understand that. But I think some people watching, especially grappling and jujitsu fans, will understand me.
Lex Fridman
Well, to be honest, sometimes there are cameras around you, and for me at least, that’s harder. I like it when there are none.
Well, to be honest, sometimes there are cameras around you, and for me at least, that’s harder. I like it when there are none.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I usually train with no cameras. With you was one of the rare occasions when I come to the gym and-
I usually train with no cameras. With you was one of the rare occasions when I come to the gym and-
Lex Fridman
You allow?
You allow?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
When I allow it, yes.
When I allow it, yes.
Lex Fridman
Thanks for that.
Thanks for that.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is very, very rare for me. Even with Embedded, with UFC, with everyone who comes, I always say, “Don’t film.”
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is very, very rare for me. Even with Embedded, with UFC, with everyone who comes, I always say, “Don’t film.”
Lex Fridman
Thank you, brother. I don’t know why, but cameras get in the way for me because this sport, this preparation, it happens here, and that whole world where celebrities matter, it gets in the way.
Thank you, brother. I don’t know why, but cameras get in the way for me because this sport, this preparation, it happens here, and that whole world where celebrities matter, it gets in the way.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, it gets in the way. But 99.9% of our training sessions happen without cameras.
Yes, it gets in the way. But 99.9% of our training sessions happen without cameras.
Lex Fridman
Well, thank you, brother. Let me ask you this. A lot of people say you’re number one, the greatest of all time. Do you think Islam has a chance to become the greatest MMA fighter of all time?
Well, thank you, brother. Let me ask you this. A lot of people say you’re number one, the greatest of all time. Do you think Islam has a chance to become the greatest MMA fighter of all time?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, I’ve never said that, and I never set out to become number one or to become the greatest athlete and so on. I never had that. My goal was always to become the best in my sport, to become a world champion, to prove to myself that I could do it. But it’s hard to choose just one person. Even now, look, there’s always going to be St-Pierre, there’s always going to be Demetrious Johnson, there’s always going to be Jon Jones, there’s always going to be Fedor. If people want to include me in that conversation, if Islam gets into that conversation, if there’s Cain Velasquez, Cormier, and so on, I’d be happy about that. And that’s my goal, that someone from our team, from the people closest to me, gets there too. If Jon Jones is there, why can’t Islam be there?
Well, I’ve never said that, and I never set out to become number one or to become the greatest athlete and so on. I never had that. My goal was always to become the best in my sport, to become a world champion, to prove to myself that I could do it. But it’s hard to choose just one person. Even now, look, there’s always going to be St-Pierre, there’s always going to be Demetrious Johnson, there’s always going to be Jon Jones, there’s always going to be Fedor. If people want to include me in that conversation, if Islam gets into that conversation, if there’s Cain Velasquez, Cormier, and so on, I’d be happy about that. And that’s my goal, that someone from our team, from the people closest to me, gets there too. If Jon Jones is there, why can’t Islam be there?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
If Demetrious Johnson is there with 11 title defenses, why can’t Islam be there? It’s a good question. Why not? I’d like him to break all those records, to overtake Jon Jones, Demetrious Johnson, and St-Pierre, no matter how much respect I have for them. Islam has a chance, but time is starting to run out a little. This worries me because, for example, Jones fought at light heavyweight and now at heavyweight. Time is a little kinder to those divisions. Even at 38, you can still compete at the heavier weights. You don’t need the same reaction speed and all that. But when you compete in lighter weight classes, 155, 170, age really catches up.
If Demetrious Johnson is there with 11 title defenses, why can’t Islam be there? It’s a good question. Why not? I’d like him to break all those records, to overtake Jon Jones, Demetrious Johnson, and St-Pierre, no matter how much respect I have for them. Islam has a chance, but time is starting to run out a little. This worries me because, for example, Jones fought at light heavyweight and now at heavyweight. Time is a little kinder to those divisions. Even at 38, you can still compete at the heavier weights. You don’t need the same reaction speed and all that. But when you compete in lighter weight classes, 155, 170, age really catches up.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I think active fighters, retired fighters, wrestlers, athletes, especially those who competed in these weight classes, will understand what I’m talking about. When you’re 35 and when you’re 32 and when you’re 38, you’re a totally different athlete.
I think active fighters, retired fighters, wrestlers, athletes, especially those who competed in these weight classes, will understand what I’m talking about. When you’re 35 and when you’re 32 and when you’re 38, you’re a totally different athlete.
Dana White
Lex Fridman
From where you are now, you can see the entire fight business, and you know Dana White very well. I’d say he’s one of those rare geniuses in sports business, in business, period. I don’t think the UFC would exist without Dana White. There are important people there, of course, but he’s really at the center of it all. What can you say about him? What qualities, what traits have made him such a successful businessman?
From where you are now, you can see the entire fight business, and you know Dana White very well. I’d say he’s one of those rare geniuses in sports business, in business, period. I don’t think the UFC would exist without Dana White. There are important people there, of course, but he’s really at the center of it all. What can you say about him? What qualities, what traits have made him such a successful businessman?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
First of all, I think if you look at it, I also kind of… Well, not kind of, I understand his position a little. I also ran my own league for a couple of years. I know what the relationship between a promoter, well, a league owner and the fighters is like, not just as a fighter dealing with a league owner. I’ve been on both sides of it. He’s very good at separating business from personal relationships. For him, the two never, never overlap. He draws a clear line between them. In business, he’s extremely cold-blooded. He’s made decisions, some major decisions, regardless of whether people like them or not. And those decisions, they were best for the league and for the UFC. He always had that mentality, you know, like in those mafia movies where family comes first, right?
First of all, I think if you look at it, I also kind of… Well, not kind of, I understand his position a little. I also ran my own league for a couple of years. I know what the relationship between a promoter, well, a league owner and the fighters is like, not just as a fighter dealing with a league owner. I’ve been on both sides of it. He’s very good at separating business from personal relationships. For him, the two never, never overlap. He draws a clear line between them. In business, he’s extremely cold-blooded. He’s made decisions, some major decisions, regardless of whether people like them or not. And those decisions, they were best for the league and for the UFC. He always had that mentality, you know, like in those mafia movies where family comes first, right?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, for him, the UFC always came first. That’s the only way he was able to push their brand forward. Of course, a lot of people contributed to that success. There were a lot of them. You have to give credit to Bruce Buffer, to Joe Rogan, to the commentators who were there. There were a lot of things that made the UFC unique, but the cherry on top was always Dana. Dana did an incredible job promoting the UFC, and he still does. No matter what, the UFC is always there. You know? No matter how unsuccessful a particular event might be, the UFC is still the UFC. When they go into a new market outside the United States, even if a show doesn’t go so well, people will still come back for the next event simply because it’s the UFC.
Well, for him, the UFC always came first. That’s the only way he was able to push their brand forward. Of course, a lot of people contributed to that success. There were a lot of them. You have to give credit to Bruce Buffer, to Joe Rogan, to the commentators who were there. There were a lot of things that made the UFC unique, but the cherry on top was always Dana. Dana did an incredible job promoting the UFC, and he still does. No matter what, the UFC is always there. You know? No matter how unsuccessful a particular event might be, the UFC is still the UFC. When they go into a new market outside the United States, even if a show doesn’t go so well, people will still come back for the next event simply because it’s the UFC.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Over the last 30 plus years, they’ve established themselves as the premier MMA league in the world, and they put on the best fights. So in that respect, I think a huge part of the credit goes to Dana. The fact that the UFC has come this far is a major achievement.
Over the last 30 plus years, they’ve established themselves as the premier MMA league in the world, and they put on the best fights. So in that respect, I think a huge part of the credit goes to Dana. The fact that the UFC has come this far is a major achievement.
Lex Fridman
Building a league like that is incredibly difficult.
Building a league like that is incredibly difficult.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah. A lot of people have money and a lot of people have tried. Many have come in. But building what the UFC has built is extremely hard. And what they’ve achieved now with Paramount, that’s something unique. It’s a unique achievement. In just 30 years, they’ve grown to a level that some entire sports needed 100 or 150 years to reach. And you have to give credit where it’s due, and that credit goes to one person, Dana White. So I think that his genius as a promoter, the way he promotes and pushes fights, and pushes his league as a whole, that is just remarkable. In my opinion, that’s something a lot of people could learn from him.
Yeah. A lot of people have money and a lot of people have tried. Many have come in. But building what the UFC has built is extremely hard. And what they’ve achieved now with Paramount, that’s something unique. It’s a unique achievement. In just 30 years, they’ve grown to a level that some entire sports needed 100 or 150 years to reach. And you have to give credit where it’s due, and that credit goes to one person, Dana White. So I think that his genius as a promoter, the way he promotes and pushes fights, and pushes his league as a whole, that is just remarkable. In my opinion, that’s something a lot of people could learn from him.
Joe Rogan
Lex Fridman
You mentioned Joe Rogan. You know, he’s a friend of mine. I love listening to his podcast, but I’ve never actually heard the two of you have a conversation together. Do you think that’s something that could happen in the future?
You mentioned Joe Rogan. You know, he’s a friend of mine. I love listening to his podcast, but I’ve never actually heard the two of you have a conversation together. Do you think that’s something that could happen in the future?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, of course.
Yes, of course.
Lex Fridman
I know you have a great deal of respect for him, and he has a great deal of respect for you. I can’t wait to hear the two of you talk.
I know you have a great deal of respect for him, and he has a great deal of respect for you. I can’t wait to hear the two of you talk.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Same here. If we’re talking about the people most responsible for promoting the UFC, I’d put Dana first. But second place, without question, goes to Joe Rogan. It’s honestly hard to imagine the UFC without him. It’ll be hard when he’s no longer part of it. And what he’s achieved in his own field, what he’s achieved in podcasting, he’s the best. And what he’s built, the way he commentates, the way he communicates, his knowledge, his charisma, the way he carries a conversation, I think a lot of people could learn from him. And as for me going on his podcast, I think it’s inevitable. God willing, if we’re given the time and the health, we’ll have a lot to talk about. There are so many different topics we could discuss together, so a conversation with Joe Rogan would be very interesting.
Same here. If we’re talking about the people most responsible for promoting the UFC, I’d put Dana first. But second place, without question, goes to Joe Rogan. It’s honestly hard to imagine the UFC without him. It’ll be hard when he’s no longer part of it. And what he’s achieved in his own field, what he’s achieved in podcasting, he’s the best. And what he’s built, the way he commentates, the way he communicates, his knowledge, his charisma, the way he carries a conversation, I think a lot of people could learn from him. And as for me going on his podcast, I think it’s inevitable. God willing, if we’re given the time and the health, we’ll have a lot to talk about. There are so many different topics we could discuss together, so a conversation with Joe Rogan would be very interesting.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I’d definitely like to talk to him.
I’d definitely like to talk to him.
Lex Fridman
I agree. But it’s interesting, right now you and I are speaking Russian.
I agree. But it’s interesting, right now you and I are speaking Russian.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Language is a tricky thing.
Language is a tricky thing.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, exactly. With him, you need to come prepared.
Yeah, exactly. With him, you need to come prepared.
Lex Fridman
Yes.
Yes.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Because if you show up unprepared, he will just eat you alive. You have to be ready. It’s a mental battle, too.
Because if you show up unprepared, he will just eat you alive. You have to be ready. It’s a mental battle, too.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. And by the way, you know, you’ve mentioned a few times that you’d like to improve your Arabic. Language is such an interesting thing. It opens doors to understanding. It allows you to understand culture and history on a much deeper level.
Yeah. And by the way, you know, you’ve mentioned a few times that you’d like to improve your Arabic. Language is such an interesting thing. It opens doors to understanding. It allows you to understand culture and history on a much deeper level.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Absolutely. Without the language, it’s very difficult. I’m starting to study Arabic now, but I’ve been reading the Quran since I was a child. I know the alphabet very well, the pronunciation rules. I can read it well. But the Quran and Arabic as a spoken language are different. I wouldn’t say they’re drastically different, but they are different. If you want to speak it conversationally, you need to study grammar and learn it in a different way.
Absolutely. Without the language, it’s very difficult. I’m starting to study Arabic now, but I’ve been reading the Quran since I was a child. I know the alphabet very well, the pronunciation rules. I can read it well. But the Quran and Arabic as a spoken language are different. I wouldn’t say they’re drastically different, but they are different. If you want to speak it conversationally, you need to study grammar and learn it in a different way.
Ali Abdelaziz
Lex Fridman
I’d also like to ask you about Ali, Ali Abdelaziz. He’s such a central figure. He represents so many champions. What do you respect about him? What do you think makes him a genius? Because he’s such a unique person.
I’d also like to ask you about Ali, Ali Abdelaziz. He’s such a central figure. He represents so many champions. What do you respect about him? What do you think makes him a genius? Because he’s such a unique person.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, I met Ali in 2014. We’ve been working together ever since. Over the years, a lot of fighters came to him through me, a lot of guys. And in all this time, in the 12 years we’ve known each other, I don’t– I can barely remember any fighters leaving him, except maybe a couple. But hundreds of fighters have worked with him, hundreds of fighters, and so many guys still keep in touch with him, and he has very good relationships with them. I’d also like to note that Ali, you know, he has one unique quality. People either really love him or really hate him. You can’t just be neutral about him, you know, like, “Yeah, I know Ali. He’s all right.” No one will say about him, “Well, you know, I know him. He’s a good guy.” You’ll have strong feelings for him.
Well, I met Ali in 2014. We’ve been working together ever since. Over the years, a lot of fighters came to him through me, a lot of guys. And in all this time, in the 12 years we’ve known each other, I don’t– I can barely remember any fighters leaving him, except maybe a couple. But hundreds of fighters have worked with him, hundreds of fighters, and so many guys still keep in touch with him, and he has very good relationships with them. I’d also like to note that Ali, you know, he has one unique quality. People either really love him or really hate him. You can’t just be neutral about him, you know, like, “Yeah, I know Ali. He’s all right.” No one will say about him, “Well, you know, I know him. He’s a good guy.” You’ll have strong feelings for him.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Either you hate him or you really love him. And I am in that category of people who really… How do I put it? Who are very fond of him. And I have a good relationship with him. I know his family. I know his children. His kids grew up before my eyes. When I first met him, he only had two or three children. Now he has more. This is the kind of person he is. You need to get to know him better to really appreciate him, and he will stand by you until the very end. And yeah, of course, there are people who have mixed feelings about him. But that’s my point. It’s hard to feel indifferent about Ali. “I know Ali. He’s a very good guy.” No, it’s different with him. People will either tell you, “I know Ali and I absolutely love him,” or, “I know Ali and I can’t stand him.”
Either you hate him or you really love him. And I am in that category of people who really… How do I put it? Who are very fond of him. And I have a good relationship with him. I know his family. I know his children. His kids grew up before my eyes. When I first met him, he only had two or three children. Now he has more. This is the kind of person he is. You need to get to know him better to really appreciate him, and he will stand by you until the very end. And yeah, of course, there are people who have mixed feelings about him. But that’s my point. It’s hard to feel indifferent about Ali. “I know Ali. He’s a very good guy.” No, it’s different with him. People will either tell you, “I know Ali and I absolutely love him,” or, “I know Ali and I can’t stand him.”
Lex Fridman
So, so it’s fair to say that most people who
So, so it’s fair to say that most people who
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman
… who really know him and work with him tend to stay with him for life?
… who really know him and work with him tend to stay with him for life?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And respect him. That’s important. And his judo isn’t bad either.
And respect him. That’s important. And his judo isn’t bad either.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It was.
It was.
Lex Fridman
He showed me.
He showed me.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It was. It was, it was.
It was. It was, it was.
Lex Fridman
Oh, right, you were just wrestling yesterday. All right.
Oh, right, you were just wrestling yesterday. All right.
Football
Lex Fridman
Let’s talk about football now. I want to ask you something, and I need to be careful here because after yesterday, I realize just how much you know about the game. I can’t even pretend I know what I’m talking about anymore. I need to tread carefully.
Let’s talk about football now. I want to ask you something, and I need to be careful here because after yesterday, I realize just how much you know about the game. I can’t even pretend I know what I’m talking about anymore. I need to tread carefully.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. If we’re gonna go there- … don’t make any mistakes. I hope you did your research.
Yes. If we’re gonna go there- … don’t make any mistakes. I hope you did your research.
Lex Fridman
I’m shaking now.
I’m shaking now.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You prepared?
You prepared?
Lex Fridman
Wait. We could talk about a lot of interesting teams. You talked about the moment when you fell in love with football. That was the Champions League final in 1998. It was Real Madrid against Juventus. It was the moment when you realized that Real Madrid was your team, the club you’ve continued to love and support ever since. Tell me about that very first moment when you watched the game with your father. What do you remember? You know, this is such an important sport for you, for millions, hundreds of millions, billions of people.
Wait. We could talk about a lot of interesting teams. You talked about the moment when you fell in love with football. That was the Champions League final in 1998. It was Real Madrid against Juventus. It was the moment when you realized that Real Madrid was your team, the club you’ve continued to love and support ever since. Tell me about that very first moment when you watched the game with your father. What do you remember? You know, this is such an important sport for you, for millions, hundreds of millions, billions of people.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Billions, yes.
Billions, yes.
Lex Fridman
What do you remember most about that game, and what did you fall in love with?
What do you remember most about that game, and what did you fall in love with?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, first of all, my father was a huge football fan. He was a good player himself. When we lived in the village, they played almost every day. Football has always been very popular where I’m from. The kids, the young people, everyone plays. In fact, we still have this tradition in the village. As long as I can remember, it was a tradition to… for each street to put together its own team for a tournament with group stages, then the quarterfinals, semifinals, and the final. So it became a real tradition, and everyone would… Everyone there follows football, the kids, the young people. And my father played, too. Whenever there was a big match on, I’d always sit with him in front of the television and watch.
Well, first of all, my father was a huge football fan. He was a good player himself. When we lived in the village, they played almost every day. Football has always been very popular where I’m from. The kids, the young people, everyone plays. In fact, we still have this tradition in the village. As long as I can remember, it was a tradition to… for each street to put together its own team for a tournament with group stages, then the quarterfinals, semifinals, and the final. So it became a real tradition, and everyone would… Everyone there follows football, the kids, the young people. And my father played, too. Whenever there was a big match on, I’d always sit with him in front of the television and watch.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
The first football memory I have that’s really clear and conscious goes back to 1996. I couldn’t tell you where we were watching it. I don’t remember, but I remember sitting next to my father. It was the European Championship semifinal, Germany and England. England lost on penalties at home, and Germany advanced to the final. A few days later, we watched the final as well. We were at someone’s place. We didn’t have a TV at the time, or maybe our channel wasn’t showing the match. I don’t remember. We watched it at somebody’s place. It was Germany against the Czech Republic. Germany won that final. I remember Oliver Bierhoff coming off the bench and scoring. That whole period is still very vivid in my memory. After that, I kept watching football whenever I could.
The first football memory I have that’s really clear and conscious goes back to 1996. I couldn’t tell you where we were watching it. I don’t remember, but I remember sitting next to my father. It was the European Championship semifinal, Germany and England. England lost on penalties at home, and Germany advanced to the final. A few days later, we watched the final as well. We were at someone’s place. We didn’t have a TV at the time, or maybe our channel wasn’t showing the match. I don’t remember. We watched it at somebody’s place. It was Germany against the Czech Republic. Germany won that final. I remember Oliver Bierhoff coming off the bench and scoring. That whole period is still very vivid in my memory. After that, I kept watching football whenever I could.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And I remember the 1998 Champions League final. I watched it with my father. Again, I don’t remember where we watched it, but it was the final, one to zero. Real Madrid won. I can still remember the players who were on the pitch. I was obsessed with football myself. I’d spend hours, days outside playing with a ball, sometimes on my own, sometimes with a group. There was a period when, actually, in the settlement where I lived, in the village, I was pretty much the only kid who had a football. So the older guys would come over. I was maybe nine or ten, and these were boys who were fifteen or sixteen. They’d say, “Khabib, bring the ball out.”
And I remember the 1998 Champions League final. I watched it with my father. Again, I don’t remember where we watched it, but it was the final, one to zero. Real Madrid won. I can still remember the players who were on the pitch. I was obsessed with football myself. I’d spend hours, days outside playing with a ball, sometimes on my own, sometimes with a group. There was a period when, actually, in the settlement where I lived, in the village, I was pretty much the only kid who had a football. So the older guys would come over. I was maybe nine or ten, and these were boys who were fifteen or sixteen. They’d say, “Khabib, bring the ball out.”
Khabib Nurmagomedov
But I’d give them a condition for bringing the ball out. When you’re ten years old, nobody is putting you on a team with fifteen-year-olds, you know. The age gap is just too big. So I’d say, “If I bring the ball, I’m playing.” They go, “All right, bring it out,” and I’d get to play. And the kids my own age didn’t make the team. You know how it is when there are a lot of kids around. Of course, the older boys would take charge. They decide who’s playing. Normally, when you’re ten and they’re fifteen, there was no chance you’d get picked. But I was very lucky. I had the ball, so I always made the team and got to play with them. That’s where it all started, really, you know. That love for football started in my childhood. My father and I always watched the big matches together.
But I’d give them a condition for bringing the ball out. When you’re ten years old, nobody is putting you on a team with fifteen-year-olds, you know. The age gap is just too big. So I’d say, “If I bring the ball, I’m playing.” They go, “All right, bring it out,” and I’d get to play. And the kids my own age didn’t make the team. You know how it is when there are a lot of kids around. Of course, the older boys would take charge. They decide who’s playing. Normally, when you’re ten and they’re fifteen, there was no chance you’d get picked. But I was very lucky. I had the ball, so I always made the team and got to play with them. That’s where it all started, really, you know. That love for football started in my childhood. My father and I always watched the big matches together.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I even remember 1998. I remember being somewhere and literally running home, so I wouldn’t miss the opening ceremony of the tournament in France. I was just running. I ran to my grandfather’s house and said, “Grandpa, put on channel one.” I think it was channel one that was showing the opening. Ronaldo was playing in that tournament. So I sat there watching, and my grandfather looked at me. I was ten. He looked at me and said, “Why are you interested?” I said, “I want to watch.” I sat and watched. The Brazilians won both matches back then, I think. They won against Morocco and lost to the Norwegians.
I even remember 1998. I remember being somewhere and literally running home, so I wouldn’t miss the opening ceremony of the tournament in France. I was just running. I ran to my grandfather’s house and said, “Grandpa, put on channel one.” I think it was channel one that was showing the opening. Ronaldo was playing in that tournament. So I sat there watching, and my grandfather looked at me. I was ten. He looked at me and said, “Why are you interested?” I said, “I want to watch.” I sat and watched. The Brazilians won both matches back then, I think. They won against Morocco and lost to the Norwegians.
Lex Fridman
The opening match was Brazil against Scotland, two-one, right?
The opening match was Brazil against Scotland, two-one, right?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, two to one. So basically, from childhood, I already had that love for football, and then it just grew. I started watching the Champions League, the Euros, the World Cup, and later the domestic leagues, mostly the Premier League. So that’s where this passion comes from.
Yeah, two to one. So basically, from childhood, I already had that love for football, and then it just grew. I started watching the Champions League, the Euros, the World Cup, and later the domestic leagues, mostly the Premier League. So that’s where this passion comes from.
Lex Fridman
And what about national teams? Brazil was your team growing up, right? That legendary Brazil team.
And what about national teams? Brazil was your team growing up, right? That legendary Brazil team.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I like Brazil, yes. I also like the Netherlands. Those national teams, Brazil and the Netherlands, those were the ones that really appealed to me.
I like Brazil, yes. I also like the Netherlands. Those national teams, Brazil and the Netherlands, those were the ones that really appealed to me.
Lex Fridman
And what about clubs? What were the main teams that you supported?
And what about clubs? What were the main teams that you supported?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It varied. I never had one national team that I’d say was my favorite team.
It varied. I never had one national team that I’d say was my favorite team.
Lex Fridman
Ah, you didn’t?
Ah, you didn’t?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I didn’t. Today, I don’t feel the same way about the Netherlands. But back then, I really liked that Dutch team a lot. Van der Sar, Reiziger, van Bronckhorst, Overmars, Davids, Seedorf, van Nistelrooy, Makaay. That old lineup. Kluivert. Now it’s not the same. That era is gone. They just don’t have players like that anymore. In that sense, there’s been a bit of a drop-off for the national team. The same with Brazil. Back then, they were incredibly strong, but today it’s not at that same level anymore. But when it comes to the club, the club I follow, that’s Real Madrid. That’s the one. But if we’re talking about leagues overall, then because of the competition and the way the league is played, I’d say the English Premier League.
I didn’t. Today, I don’t feel the same way about the Netherlands. But back then, I really liked that Dutch team a lot. Van der Sar, Reiziger, van Bronckhorst, Overmars, Davids, Seedorf, van Nistelrooy, Makaay. That old lineup. Kluivert. Now it’s not the same. That era is gone. They just don’t have players like that anymore. In that sense, there’s been a bit of a drop-off for the national team. The same with Brazil. Back then, they were incredibly strong, but today it’s not at that same level anymore. But when it comes to the club, the club I follow, that’s Real Madrid. That’s the one. But if we’re talking about leagues overall, then because of the competition and the way the league is played, I’d say the English Premier League.
Lex Fridman
And in the Premier League, do you follow Man U, City?
And in the Premier League, do you follow Man U, City?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Not in a way where I have one team, no. I like them. They’re both top clubs. They’re big clubs. I watch them. I follow them. It just depends. But it’s not like I have one favorite. I do like City, Manchester City. In recent years, they’ve been winning almost everything. They’ve dominated for the last ten years. But if we look more closely at Manchester City, there’s been a bit of a dip over the last two seasons. And then you also have the rise of Arsenal in the last couple of seasons, a very well-structured team under Arteta. They’re really on the rise this season. They’re leading the league, doing well in the Champions League. They’re leading domestically as well, so I don’t know how far they’ll go, but they’re aiming for the treble this season.
Not in a way where I have one team, no. I like them. They’re both top clubs. They’re big clubs. I watch them. I follow them. It just depends. But it’s not like I have one favorite. I do like City, Manchester City. In recent years, they’ve been winning almost everything. They’ve dominated for the last ten years. But if we look more closely at Manchester City, there’s been a bit of a dip over the last two seasons. And then you also have the rise of Arsenal in the last couple of seasons, a very well-structured team under Arteta. They’re really on the rise this season. They’re leading the league, doing well in the Champions League. They’re leading domestically as well, so I don’t know how far they’ll go, but they’re aiming for the treble this season.
Messi vs Ronaldo
Lex Fridman
I wanna ask because we lived through such a moment in sports history- … that we might never see anything like it again. I’m talking about this, this rivalry between Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Of course, since you love Real Madrid, you know, you naturally love Cristiano Ronaldo, but what can you say about it? A lot of people call him the absolute best, and for many, Messi is number one. There’s also a very good book about their rivalry. I recommend it. It basically tells the story of modern football through their rivalry, Messi versus Ronaldo, one rivalry, almost 20-year era. Two GOATs in an era that remade the world’s game. So it’s been 20 years. So what can you say? Why do you consider Cristiano Ronaldo a great footballer? What do you like about him? Let’s start with Ronaldo.
I wanna ask because we lived through such a moment in sports history- … that we might never see anything like it again. I’m talking about this, this rivalry between Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Of course, since you love Real Madrid, you know, you naturally love Cristiano Ronaldo, but what can you say about it? A lot of people call him the absolute best, and for many, Messi is number one. There’s also a very good book about their rivalry. I recommend it. It basically tells the story of modern football through their rivalry, Messi versus Ronaldo, one rivalry, almost 20-year era. Two GOATs in an era that remade the world’s game. So it’s been 20 years. So what can you say? Why do you consider Cristiano Ronaldo a great footballer? What do you like about him? Let’s start with Ronaldo.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, he’s a natural born athlete. He is… God gave him the athleticism, and he managed to maintain it. There are many who have lost it. There are many players who have talent, physical ability, but they are lazy. But he has it all, athleticism, talent, hard work, everything, and then there’s this. He played in Manchester. He moved. He shone in Portugal at Sporting, then moved to Manchester.
Well, he’s a natural born athlete. He is… God gave him the athleticism, and he managed to maintain it. There are many who have lost it. There are many players who have talent, physical ability, but they are lazy. But he has it all, athleticism, talent, hard work, everything, and then there’s this. He played in Manchester. He moved. He shone in Portugal at Sporting, then moved to Manchester.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And it’s not easy to make your mark at Manchester. From 2003 to 2008, he became a star there, and what he achieved in 2008, just look at how many individual trophies he won and how much he won with his team. You can even look it up. Just search what Cristiano Ronaldo achieved in 2008. It’s simply unbelievable. And then he moved from Manchester. He transferred to an even more difficult club, Real Madrid, nine years at Real Madrid. Five years at Manchester United, then nine years at Real Madrid. That’s about 15 years. You’re under constant pressure at the two biggest clubs in the history of football, and at both clubs, at both clubs, he became the best. That’s very difficult.
And it’s not easy to make your mark at Manchester. From 2003 to 2008, he became a star there, and what he achieved in 2008, just look at how many individual trophies he won and how much he won with his team. You can even look it up. Just search what Cristiano Ronaldo achieved in 2008. It’s simply unbelievable. And then he moved from Manchester. He transferred to an even more difficult club, Real Madrid, nine years at Real Madrid. Five years at Manchester United, then nine years at Real Madrid. That’s about 15 years. You’re under constant pressure at the two biggest clubs in the history of football, and at both clubs, at both clubs, he became the best. That’s very difficult.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, look here. Three Premier League titles came during his time at Manchester United.
Yeah, look here. Three Premier League titles came during his time at Manchester United.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Look at 2008 specifically, what he accomplished then. He won the Premier League. He won the UEFA Champions League. Individually, he won the Golden Boot, top score in the Champions League, the Premier League, every major trophy. But the point is that at Manchester, he spent five years performing at the highest level under enormous pressure. Then he spent nine years at Real Madrid.
Look at 2008 specifically, what he accomplished then. He won the Premier League. He won the UEFA Champions League. Individually, he won the Golden Boot, top score in the Champions League, the Premier League, every major trophy. But the point is that at Manchester, he spent five years performing at the highest level under enormous pressure. Then he spent nine years at Real Madrid.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
After that, he moved to Juventus, but only for a short time, and this is the part people tend to forget. He spent three seasons at Juventus, and he also won both the Italian championship and the Super Cup there and scored 100 goals. And just the fact that for 20 years, let’s say 22 or 23 years, he’s been at the highest level. Look at how many goals he scored, and now he’s closing in on 1,000. Will Messi ever reach that number is the big question. Next season, he scores 40 goals in a season, and he’s less than 40 goals away from the 1,000-goal mark. That’s how unique he is in that regard. But just because I’m a Real Madrid fan doesn’t mean I downplay what Messi has achieved. It’s impossible to downplay what Messi’s done.
After that, he moved to Juventus, but only for a short time, and this is the part people tend to forget. He spent three seasons at Juventus, and he also won both the Italian championship and the Super Cup there and scored 100 goals. And just the fact that for 20 years, let’s say 22 or 23 years, he’s been at the highest level. Look at how many goals he scored, and now he’s closing in on 1,000. Will Messi ever reach that number is the big question. Next season, he scores 40 goals in a season, and he’s less than 40 goals away from the 1,000-goal mark. That’s how unique he is in that regard. But just because I’m a Real Madrid fan doesn’t mean I downplay what Messi has achieved. It’s impossible to downplay what Messi’s done.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You have to give him the credit he deserves, but I wouldn’t want to put one of them above the other. If I’m being honest, both of them, watching each other, competing with each other, they stayed there. Would Messi be Messi without Ronaldo? Would Ronaldo be Ronaldo without Messi? Those are big questions. I’m convinced they watched each other closely. They always have, and they still do now. For almost 20 years, they’ve been watching each other, pushing each other, and constantly improving. They were already the best, but that drove them even further. By competing against one another, they pulled so far ahead of the rest.
You have to give him the credit he deserves, but I wouldn’t want to put one of them above the other. If I’m being honest, both of them, watching each other, competing with each other, they stayed there. Would Messi be Messi without Ronaldo? Would Ronaldo be Ronaldo without Messi? Those are big questions. I’m convinced they watched each other closely. They always have, and they still do now. For almost 20 years, they’ve been watching each other, pushing each other, and constantly improving. They were already the best, but that drove them even further. By competing against one another, they pulled so far ahead of the rest.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Whether you’re talking about achievements, trophies, and all that, and in that sense, their rivalry truly elevated the entire sport. More people started following football because of them, watching the games. So I believe both of them deserve tremendous respect.
Whether you’re talking about achievements, trophies, and all that, and in that sense, their rivalry truly elevated the entire sport. More people started following football because of them, watching the games. So I believe both of them deserve tremendous respect.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I’d say I completely agree with you that if Messi hadn’t had Ronaldo and Ronaldo hadn’t had Messi-
Yeah. I’d say I completely agree with you that if Messi hadn’t had Ronaldo and Ronaldo hadn’t had Messi-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, would they have gone that far?
Yeah, would they have gone that far?
Lex Fridman
I don’t think so.
I don’t think so.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It’s an open question.
It’s an open question.
Lex Fridman
I don’t think so. But for me, there is nobody like Messi, his pure love for the game for its own sake.
I don’t think so. But for me, there is nobody like Messi, his pure love for the game for its own sake.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You’re a Barca guy? Oh, really? Yeah, I can tell from the way you’re talking about it, the way you…
You’re a Barca guy? Oh, really? Yeah, I can tell from the way you’re talking about it, the way you…
Lex Fridman
You got me.
You got me.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing against it, but…
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing against it, but…
Lex Fridman
Yes, sure. Well, I mean, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Puyol, that was a legendary team.
Yes, sure. Well, I mean, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Puyol, that was a legendary team.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. No, but look, you can compare them like this. Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Messi, Ronaldinho, Piqué.
Yes. No, but look, you can compare them like this. Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Messi, Ronaldinho, Piqué.
Lex Fridman
Ronaldinho, yes.
Ronaldinho, yes.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Ronaldinho, he was a bit earlier. That Barcelona team from roughly 2008 to 2012, that four-year period, only one team in history can compare with them, Real Madrid from 2014 to 2018. They won in 2014, in 2016, 2017, and 2018. The only interruption was Barcelona’s team with Neymar.
Ronaldinho, he was a bit earlier. That Barcelona team from roughly 2008 to 2012, that four-year period, only one team in history can compare with them, Real Madrid from 2014 to 2018. They won in 2014, in 2016, 2017, and 2018. The only interruption was Barcelona’s team with Neymar.
Lex Fridman
With Neymar, yes.
With Neymar, yes.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
With Suarez and Messi, that was 2015. Well, let’s leave that aside. But, you know, with Modrić, Kroos, Casemiro, Ronaldo, Benzema, Marcelo, Carvajal, Casillas, and this team compared to Víctor Valdés, Piqué, Puyol, Dani Alves, Jordi Alba, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, and Messi, for me, those are the two greatest teams. Different generations, different squads. For me, they truly represent a true dream team in football, at club level. That’s the comparison. But if we look at the national team level you could pick France in 1998. That 1998 France team is very close to a perfect team, and also 2002 Brazil. In 2002, they were extremely strong.
With Suarez and Messi, that was 2015. Well, let’s leave that aside. But, you know, with Modrić, Kroos, Casemiro, Ronaldo, Benzema, Marcelo, Carvajal, Casillas, and this team compared to Víctor Valdés, Piqué, Puyol, Dani Alves, Jordi Alba, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, and Messi, for me, those are the two greatest teams. Different generations, different squads. For me, they truly represent a true dream team in football, at club level. That’s the comparison. But if we look at the national team level you could pick France in 1998. That 1998 France team is very close to a perfect team, and also 2002 Brazil. In 2002, they were extremely strong.
Lex Fridman
Yes, you had Ronaldo.
Yes, you had Ronaldo.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You had Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos, Cafu. You had Emerson. You had Kleberson, I think Roque Junior, Lucio, Edmilson. And beyond those superstar names, there were also very strong players who kind of stayed in the shadow of those stars. Stayed in their shadow. So Brazil 2002, France 1998, and then there was then later Spain from Euro 2008, the 2010 World Cup, and Euro 2012. That period, too, Spain. The Spanish national team was close to perfect.
You had Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos, Cafu. You had Emerson. You had Kleberson, I think Roque Junior, Lucio, Edmilson. And beyond those superstar names, there were also very strong players who kind of stayed in the shadow of those stars. Stayed in their shadow. So Brazil 2002, France 1998, and then there was then later Spain from Euro 2008, the 2010 World Cup, and Euro 2012. That period, too, Spain. The Spanish national team was close to perfect.
Lex Fridman
I wanted to go back to France. You mentioned Zidane. I really, really respect and admire him. There was this moment psychologically very interesting, almost Shakespearean moment in his career when it ended with, ended with that… How do you even call it?
I wanted to go back to France. You mentioned Zidane. I really, really respect and admire him. There was this moment psychologically very interesting, almost Shakespearean moment in his career when it ended with, ended with that… How do you even call it?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
A headbutt. A headbutt to the chest.
A headbutt. A headbutt to the chest.
Lex Fridman
What’s interesting is, I don’t know, looking at your fight with Conor- When emotion builds up, for most of it you’re focused on the game, but in the end you let that emotion out. What do you think about that headbutt?
What’s interesting is, I don’t know, looking at your fight with Conor- When emotion builds up, for most of it you’re focused on the game, but in the end you let that emotion out. What do you think about that headbutt?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I wouldn’t want to judge him, wouldn’t want to be some kind of judge of what he did, no. Well, he did what he did. We don’t know what was really going on there. But as a player, of course, he was unique. He won the Euros, the World Cup, reached finals, won the Champions League, the Spanish and the Italian championships, and cups, too. It’s just unique, and the way he played, I just always remembered him for the way sweat was just pouring off him, the way he ran, how he gave everything in every single match. He had incredible stamina, incredible endurance. I think a lot of people listening to this podcast may not have watched Zidane playing live. When I say live, I mean watching him play in real time.
I wouldn’t want to judge him, wouldn’t want to be some kind of judge of what he did, no. Well, he did what he did. We don’t know what was really going on there. But as a player, of course, he was unique. He won the Euros, the World Cup, reached finals, won the Champions League, the Spanish and the Italian championships, and cups, too. It’s just unique, and the way he played, I just always remembered him for the way sweat was just pouring off him, the way he ran, how he gave everything in every single match. He had incredible stamina, incredible endurance. I think a lot of people listening to this podcast may not have watched Zidane playing live. When I say live, I mean watching him play in real time.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I personally didn’t see his games live. I was younger then. But I did watch many of his matches later on. I remember the goals he scored in World Cup finals in 1998 and 2006, especially the headers, and even that penalty, the Champions League final, European championships, the way he played, the way he handled the ball, the way the ball was glued to his feet, his movements, and then his charisma. It’s rare to find all of that in one player. You don’t see that combination often. There are many very good players, but sometimes they’re just not that interesting to watch. You know what I mean? I don’t want to give specific examples because someone might take it the wrong way, so I won’t name anyone.
I personally didn’t see his games live. I was younger then. But I did watch many of his matches later on. I remember the goals he scored in World Cup finals in 1998 and 2006, especially the headers, and even that penalty, the Champions League final, European championships, the way he played, the way he handled the ball, the way the ball was glued to his feet, his movements, and then his charisma. It’s rare to find all of that in one player. You don’t see that combination often. There are many very good players, but sometimes they’re just not that interesting to watch. You know what I mean? I don’t want to give specific examples because someone might take it the wrong way, so I won’t name anyone.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
But there are players who are phenomenal in terms of their physical attributes: fast, explosive, effective. But they don’t have charisma, that energy that makes people want to watch them, and I don’t think that’s their fault. But with Zidane, everything came together. You always wanted to watch him play. You always want to watch Ronaldo play. You always want to watch Beckham play. You want to watch Edgar Davids running around the field in those glasses, his hair bouncing behind him, right? You still wanted to watch the way Barthez played in goal. No matter how many bizarre goals he conceded, you still wanted to watch him play. Or Oliver Kahn, the way he stood in goal and directed the whole team, the way he would rush out to the ball, the way strikers were afraid of him.
But there are players who are phenomenal in terms of their physical attributes: fast, explosive, effective. But they don’t have charisma, that energy that makes people want to watch them, and I don’t think that’s their fault. But with Zidane, everything came together. You always wanted to watch him play. You always want to watch Ronaldo play. You always want to watch Beckham play. You want to watch Edgar Davids running around the field in those glasses, his hair bouncing behind him, right? You still wanted to watch the way Barthez played in goal. No matter how many bizarre goals he conceded, you still wanted to watch him play. Or Oliver Kahn, the way he stood in goal and directed the whole team, the way he would rush out to the ball, the way strikers were afraid of him.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I mean, so many strikers have admitted that they were afraid if they found themselves one-on-one with Oliver Kahn in the penalty area. You always wanted to watch Roberto Carlos take a free kick or storm down the left flank. You always wanted to see Cafu or Míchel Salgado make an overlapping run. The way Vieira stood there as the defensive midfielder or somebody like Maldini or like Rio Ferdinand or somebody like that, you wanted to watch Casillas in goal. So, you know, for me, and maybe for our generation, those players had something special.
I mean, so many strikers have admitted that they were afraid if they found themselves one-on-one with Oliver Kahn in the penalty area. You always wanted to watch Roberto Carlos take a free kick or storm down the left flank. You always wanted to see Cafu or Míchel Salgado make an overlapping run. The way Vieira stood there as the defensive midfielder or somebody like Maldini or like Rio Ferdinand or somebody like that, you wanted to watch Casillas in goal. So, you know, for me, and maybe for our generation, those players had something special.
Lex Fridman
Can you try to explain what charisma is? Like you said, there are good players, and then there is Zidane.
Can you try to explain what charisma is? Like you said, there are good players, and then there is Zidane.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It’s very difficult to explain. You either have it or you don’t. Personality, right?
It’s very difficult to explain. You either have it or you don’t. Personality, right?
Lex Fridman
Yes, but there are so many different forms of it. Zidane, in a way, almost moved slowly, in a way.
Yes, but there are so many different forms of it. Zidane, in a way, almost moved slowly, in a way.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
But he’d carry the ball from midfield into attack incredibly quickly. So it’s very hard to put into words, hard to explain it.
But he’d carry the ball from midfield into attack incredibly quickly. So it’s very hard to put into words, hard to explain it.
Lex Fridman
And both Ronaldos had that. I mean, the Brazilian Ronaldo too, the way he played in those World Cups.
And both Ronaldos had that. I mean, the Brazilian Ronaldo too, the way he played in those World Cups.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
It was just phenomenal.
It was just phenomenal.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
’98, 2002. Even in 2006 when he was already past his peak. He was so fascinating to watch. Seriously, how many people turned on their TVs just to watch Ronaldo? People knew that was it, that in 2010 he wouldn’t be playing. And even in 2006, he wasn’t really in his prime. But still, so many people turned on the TV just to watch him play. And Zidane, 2006 was really, you know, the peak of that whole generation of legends that had been building since ’98, 2000, 2002, and ’04. All the cream of the crop came in. Most of them weren’t at their physical peak anymore, but the names were still there. Honestly, I think that for football fans, I’d recommend just looking up the teams and the lineups from the 2006 World Cup. Look at the rosters. Every single team had stars you wanted to watch.
’98, 2002. Even in 2006 when he was already past his peak. He was so fascinating to watch. Seriously, how many people turned on their TVs just to watch Ronaldo? People knew that was it, that in 2010 he wouldn’t be playing. And even in 2006, he wasn’t really in his prime. But still, so many people turned on the TV just to watch him play. And Zidane, 2006 was really, you know, the peak of that whole generation of legends that had been building since ’98, 2000, 2002, and ’04. All the cream of the crop came in. Most of them weren’t at their physical peak anymore, but the names were still there. Honestly, I think that for football fans, I’d recommend just looking up the teams and the lineups from the 2006 World Cup. Look at the rosters. Every single team had stars you wanted to watch.
Lex Fridman
Speaking of teams, what style of football do you like? You prefer short passing, long balls, individual plays, you know, like Maradona carrying the ball or, of course, Cristiano Ronaldo taking the ball and scoring himself?
Speaking of teams, what style of football do you like? You prefer short passing, long balls, individual plays, you know, like Maradona carrying the ball or, of course, Cristiano Ronaldo taking the ball and scoring himself?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Mostly those who take the initiative.
Mostly those who take the initiative.
Lex Fridman
You like that?
You like that?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, definitely. I like players who are willing to take the initiative. I was recently talking to Zlatan about this, and he said, “It drives me crazy when I have players on my team who, when you pass them the ball, they immediately get rid of it. They don’t want to take the initiative.” When you have three or more players on the team, if there are three people on the team who are not afraid to make mistakes, that’s usually enough. They take the initiative, take control of the game, drive the team forward, make mistakes, but they keep trying. And then there are others who hide, he says. They get the ball and immediately pass it to someone else. Just don’t give it to me. Not me. Not me. They just want to get rid of the ball. It’s like…
Yeah, definitely. I like players who are willing to take the initiative. I was recently talking to Zlatan about this, and he said, “It drives me crazy when I have players on my team who, when you pass them the ball, they immediately get rid of it. They don’t want to take the initiative.” When you have three or more players on the team, if there are three people on the team who are not afraid to make mistakes, that’s usually enough. They take the initiative, take control of the game, drive the team forward, make mistakes, but they keep trying. And then there are others who hide, he says. They get the ball and immediately pass it to someone else. Just don’t give it to me. Not me. Not me. They just want to get rid of the ball. It’s like…
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You know, it’s like something one of Zidane’s coaches once said. If you don’t know what to do with the ball, give it to Zidane. He’ll figure it out, so… You see, that’s the thing. It’s a quality, mm, not every player has. You’re taking the ball. You’re taking responsibility. You’re taking the initiative. You are not afraid to fail. You’re not afraid to make a mistake. Cristiano had a moment like that. He missed a penalty, and later in the same match, he stepped up to take another one. Think about that. You take the first penalty. You miss it. Then another penalty comes along, and you still step up to take it. Because if you miss two penalties in the same game, you’re under a lot of pressure, right? But that’s the point. You’re not afraid to fail.
You know, it’s like something one of Zidane’s coaches once said. If you don’t know what to do with the ball, give it to Zidane. He’ll figure it out, so… You see, that’s the thing. It’s a quality, mm, not every player has. You’re taking the ball. You’re taking responsibility. You’re taking the initiative. You are not afraid to fail. You’re not afraid to make a mistake. Cristiano had a moment like that. He missed a penalty, and later in the same match, he stepped up to take another one. Think about that. You take the first penalty. You miss it. Then another penalty comes along, and you still step up to take it. Because if you miss two penalties in the same game, you’re under a lot of pressure, right? But that’s the point. You’re not afraid to fail.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
As a leader, you take the initiative, and you’re willing to take risks. That’s honestly the beauty of it, the beauty of sports in general. The bigger the risk, the bigger the potential for greatness. If there’s no risk, then there’s no… You can’t make, can’t put yourself in the category of athletes people will talk about as some of the best ever.
As a leader, you take the initiative, and you’re willing to take risks. That’s honestly the beauty of it, the beauty of sports in general. The bigger the risk, the bigger the potential for greatness. If there’s no risk, then there’s no… You can’t make, can’t put yourself in the category of athletes people will talk about as some of the best ever.
Lex Fridman
Especially when it’s a high-level game like the World Cup and…
Especially when it’s a high-level game like the World Cup and…
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. The more risk, the sweeter the victory. There must be risk.
Yes. The more risk, the sweeter the victory. There must be risk.
Lex Fridman
That’s why they often speak of Maradona as a great player. There are many great players. He’s great-
That’s why they often speak of Maradona as a great player. There are many great players. He’s great-
Khabib Nurmagomedov
One of them, yeah
One of them, yeah
Lex Fridman
…for many reasons. But one reason is that he kinda carried the team on his shoulders.
…for many reasons. But one reason is that he kinda carried the team on his shoulders.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
He took the initiative and carried them. That’s when he led Napoli, you know? When he led Napoli to the league title. Who knew Napoli then? Maradona came from Barcelona to Napoli and made them champions, and the whole stadium was named after him. Many guys played in Napoli, but there was never anyone like Maradona. And recently, I saw somewhere, or I think someone pointed out, the pressure on the guys who are transferring to Napoli. Whoever you are, you will always be in Maradona’s shadow, and you stay in the shadow because fans will never give you the credit you might deserve because they will always compare you to him. Are you Maradona or not? And if you’re not Maradona, you will never get full recognition.
He took the initiative and carried them. That’s when he led Napoli, you know? When he led Napoli to the league title. Who knew Napoli then? Maradona came from Barcelona to Napoli and made them champions, and the whole stadium was named after him. Many guys played in Napoli, but there was never anyone like Maradona. And recently, I saw somewhere, or I think someone pointed out, the pressure on the guys who are transferring to Napoli. Whoever you are, you will always be in Maradona’s shadow, and you stay in the shadow because fans will never give you the credit you might deserve because they will always compare you to him. Are you Maradona or not? And if you’re not Maradona, you will never get full recognition.
Lex Fridman
I want to say that one of the things that makes Messi great, I think, is that he really had to live in such a shadow of Maradona, and especially with the World Cup. It’s not easy.
I want to say that one of the things that makes Messi great, I think, is that he really had to live in such a shadow of Maradona, and especially with the World Cup. It’s not easy.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
And he came out of it.
And he came out of it.
Lex Fridman
Hard to emerge from that shadow.
Hard to emerge from that shadow.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yes. And he won the World Cup, yeah. In that sense, you have to give Messi his due. I’m addressing the Real Madrid fans now. Ours, yours, both sides.
Yes. And he won the World Cup, yeah. In that sense, you have to give Messi his due. I’m addressing the Real Madrid fans now. Ours, yours, both sides.
Lex Fridman
You’re explaining it to them.
You’re explaining it to them.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman
I got you.
I got you.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Most of them, I think even if they don’t like Barcelona, they still recognize Messi’s greatness.
Most of them, I think even if they don’t like Barcelona, they still recognize Messi’s greatness.
Lex Fridman
I know that you met Zlatan. You talked to him. I think he’s one of the most self-confident people in football, in the world in general. What do you think about this confidence? Of course, he’s joking around a little bit, but I think he really believes in himself.
I know that you met Zlatan. You talked to him. I think he’s one of the most self-confident people in football, in the world in general. What do you think about this confidence? Of course, he’s joking around a little bit, but I think he really believes in himself.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, yeah, he does. He does. I’ve known Zlatan for years now. We get along well, and I know his kids, and I like his personality. I like his confidence. I mean, he’s a unique player. There are not many Zlatans in football. You know, wherever he played, he always scored. He’s a goal scorer. He is that kind of center forward, and he always carried the team. He was a leader wherever he transferred. It doesn’t matter. Milan, Inter, Juventus, when he moved to LA Galaxy or Paris Saint-Germain. He was a leader everywhere he went, with the national team, with his clubs. He was always the guy driving the team forward, taking the initiative. And honestly, he cemented his place as one of the greatest players to ever play the game. And yeah, maybe he was…
Well, yeah, he does. He does. I’ve known Zlatan for years now. We get along well, and I know his kids, and I like his personality. I like his confidence. I mean, he’s a unique player. There are not many Zlatans in football. You know, wherever he played, he always scored. He’s a goal scorer. He is that kind of center forward, and he always carried the team. He was a leader wherever he transferred. It doesn’t matter. Milan, Inter, Juventus, when he moved to LA Galaxy or Paris Saint-Germain. He was a leader everywhere he went, with the national team, with his clubs. He was always the guy driving the team forward, taking the initiative. And honestly, he cemented his place as one of the greatest players to ever play the game. And yeah, maybe he was…
Khabib Nurmagomedov
When it comes to trophies, not individual achievements, but team honors, Sweden wasn’t such a– wasn’t exactly the greatest team, and some of the clubs he played for didn’t always win the biggest trophies. But as an athlete, as an individual, as a person, he is very– a very strong athlete.
When it comes to trophies, not individual achievements, but team honors, Sweden wasn’t such a– wasn’t exactly the greatest team, and some of the clubs he played for didn’t always win the biggest trophies. But as an athlete, as an individual, as a person, he is very– a very strong athlete.
Dubai
Lex Fridman
We talked a lot about Dagestan, talked a lot about America. You’re in Dubai a lot these days. Do you like it there? Also, you have spoken very highly about Sheikh Hamdan. What do you like about Dubai? What do you like about this region? And what do you respect about Sheikh Hamdan?
We talked a lot about Dagestan, talked a lot about America. You’re in Dubai a lot these days. Do you like it there? Also, you have spoken very highly about Sheikh Hamdan. What do you like about Dubai? What do you like about this region? And what do you respect about Sheikh Hamdan?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Our team’s been in Dubai for seven to eight years now. We train at the Nad Al Sheba Sports Complex. The NAS Sports Complex, this is under Sheikh Hamdan’s office. It’s like his home, his place. We train there, we eat there, we live there. Sheikh Hamdan helps us with everything and takes care of us. The way he treats us, what he does for us, his support is just limitless. He supports us in everything, and it’s not just one, two, or three years. It’s already been seven or eight years. And I am very, very grateful to him. The way he welcomed us, took us in, and helped us, continues to help, it’s hard to put it into words how grateful we are. Our entire team is very grateful to him, and he knows it. So in general, Dubai has become…
Our team’s been in Dubai for seven to eight years now. We train at the Nad Al Sheba Sports Complex. The NAS Sports Complex, this is under Sheikh Hamdan’s office. It’s like his home, his place. We train there, we eat there, we live there. Sheikh Hamdan helps us with everything and takes care of us. The way he treats us, what he does for us, his support is just limitless. He supports us in everything, and it’s not just one, two, or three years. It’s already been seven or eight years. And I am very, very grateful to him. The way he welcomed us, took us in, and helped us, continues to help, it’s hard to put it into words how grateful we are. Our entire team is very grateful to him, and he knows it. So in general, Dubai has become…
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Actually, the Emirates, Dubai, and Abu Dhabi have become like a second home for us. And so it happened that over the last six or seven years, the UFC has been holding events in Abu Dhabi, and the PFL has been putting on events in Dubai. These are two of the biggest MMA organizations in the world, and a lot of our guys compete there. We arrive before the fight, we stay, we do training camps, they compete. We are incredibly fortunate that we have support at the government level. In Abu Dhabi, we’ve been supported by Sheikh Mohammed, Sheikh Tahnoon, and Sheikh Mansour. And in Dubai, Sheikh Hamdan has really taken us in like his own team, like younger brothers. In that respect, we’ve been incredibly fortunate, and our entire team is deeply grateful for their support.
Actually, the Emirates, Dubai, and Abu Dhabi have become like a second home for us. And so it happened that over the last six or seven years, the UFC has been holding events in Abu Dhabi, and the PFL has been putting on events in Dubai. These are two of the biggest MMA organizations in the world, and a lot of our guys compete there. We arrive before the fight, we stay, we do training camps, they compete. We are incredibly fortunate that we have support at the government level. In Abu Dhabi, we’ve been supported by Sheikh Mohammed, Sheikh Tahnoon, and Sheikh Mansour. And in Dubai, Sheikh Hamdan has really taken us in like his own team, like younger brothers. In that respect, we’ve been incredibly fortunate, and our entire team is deeply grateful for their support.
Lex Fridman
And they’ve created a country that has become one of the world’s central hubs. People from everywhere travel there.
And they’ve created a country that has become one of the world’s central hubs. People from everywhere travel there.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
It’s unique, right? The local population is only around one and a half million people, actually even less than that. But, you know, there’s such an influx of tourists, people, business people, major events, and everything happening in terms of business and sports is just incredible. What’s happening in Dubai and Abu Dhabi is, it’s like nothing else. The only places you could really compare it to are major global cities like New York, London, Paris, Tokyo. But those are huge metropolitan areas with populations of well over twenty million people, and they have centuries of history behind them. And here, they’ve built cities, an entire country really, in just a few decades and turned it into a kind of magnet. It’s like a magnet that attracts everyone.
It’s unique, right? The local population is only around one and a half million people, actually even less than that. But, you know, there’s such an influx of tourists, people, business people, major events, and everything happening in terms of business and sports is just incredible. What’s happening in Dubai and Abu Dhabi is, it’s like nothing else. The only places you could really compare it to are major global cities like New York, London, Paris, Tokyo. But those are huge metropolitan areas with populations of well over twenty million people, and they have centuries of history behind them. And here, they’ve built cities, an entire country really, in just a few decades and turned it into a kind of magnet. It’s like a magnet that attracts everyone.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
The country’s location, its logistics, the sheer number of people coming in, not just visiting, but wanting to move there, live there, and start businesses, it’s remarkable. It’s a unique place in today’s world. With everything that’s happening around the globe right now, this country really stands out because of the opportunities it offers. It’s unique in that sense.
The country’s location, its logistics, the sheer number of people coming in, not just visiting, but wanting to move there, live there, and start businesses, it’s remarkable. It’s a unique place in today’s world. With everything that’s happening around the globe right now, this country really stands out because of the opportunities it offers. It’s unique in that sense.
God
Lex Fridman
Now I’d like to ask you this. For you, your Muslim faith and God, it’s obviously central to your life and to who you are. Can you explain what role God plays in your life?
Now I’d like to ask you this. For you, your Muslim faith and God, it’s obviously central to your life and to who you are. Can you explain what role God plays in your life?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, first of all, I was born, raised, and brought up in a Muslim family, in a Muslim community. Since childhood, religion’s always been the most important thing for me. And when I say religion, the first thing I mean is Salah, Namaz. And my entire life in general, my daily routine, the way I lived, trained, studied, and everything else has always been built around Salah. The rest was scheduled around it. Even today, when I was choosing time for this podcast, I knew we’d be talking for a couple of hours, so I deliberately picked a time right after the midday prayer. I pray, come here, finish up here with you, and then go pray again. That’s how my life’s been, and still is, and that’s how it will continue to be, I hope.
Well, first of all, I was born, raised, and brought up in a Muslim family, in a Muslim community. Since childhood, religion’s always been the most important thing for me. And when I say religion, the first thing I mean is Salah, Namaz. And my entire life in general, my daily routine, the way I lived, trained, studied, and everything else has always been built around Salah. The rest was scheduled around it. Even today, when I was choosing time for this podcast, I knew we’d be talking for a couple of hours, so I deliberately picked a time right after the midday prayer. I pray, come here, finish up here with you, and then go pray again. That’s how my life’s been, and still is, and that’s how it will continue to be, I hope.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I’ve always tried to organize my life around worship, because first and foremost, my purpose in this life is to worship the one God. Everything that happens after that is secondary, so to speak. And faith in God and learning more and just striving to get closer to God, that continues throughout our entire lives. So in that regard, I’m very grateful to the Almighty for opening this door of understanding and reflection for me, for helping me realize that we are all servants of God and that our purpose in life is to serve one God.
I’ve always tried to organize my life around worship, because first and foremost, my purpose in this life is to worship the one God. Everything that happens after that is secondary, so to speak. And faith in God and learning more and just striving to get closer to God, that continues throughout our entire lives. So in that regard, I’m very grateful to the Almighty for opening this door of understanding and reflection for me, for helping me realize that we are all servants of God and that our purpose in life is to serve one God.
Lex Fridman
And as you were explaining that helped you in your career in the sense that, you know, psychologically, by keeping you from letting success go to your head?
And as you were explaining that helped you in your career in the sense that, you know, psychologically, by keeping you from letting success go to your head?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
That helped me with everything. I’ve always placed my only hope in the Almighty. Whatever situation I might face, I’ve always believed that only the Almighty can truly make it easier for me. And when it comes to not letting success go to your head, not becoming proud, not becoming full of yourself, religion and my faith in Allah have helped me with that too. I truly believe that only faith can help a person get through life’s hardest trials. And sometimes I think about people who suffer the loss of a loved one, someone very close to them.
That helped me with everything. I’ve always placed my only hope in the Almighty. Whatever situation I might face, I’ve always believed that only the Almighty can truly make it easier for me. And when it comes to not letting success go to your head, not becoming proud, not becoming full of yourself, religion and my faith in Allah have helped me with that too. I truly believe that only faith can help a person get through life’s hardest trials. And sometimes I think about people who suffer the loss of a loved one, someone very close to them.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
For example, when I lost my father, I remember thinking to myself, “If I didn’t believe in the Almighty, if I didn’t have faith in God and understand that it was predestined, that we all come into this world and then leave it, that no one stays here forever, that no one belongs to anyone, and we all belong to the Almighty, and that we will all return to Him, I don’t know how I would have coped with it.” I’m a very emotional person. I think it would have been extremely difficult for me to go through all of that without faith. In that sense, I feel fortunate to have this understanding.
For example, when I lost my father, I remember thinking to myself, “If I didn’t believe in the Almighty, if I didn’t have faith in God and understand that it was predestined, that we all come into this world and then leave it, that no one stays here forever, that no one belongs to anyone, and we all belong to the Almighty, and that we will all return to Him, I don’t know how I would have coped with it.” I’m a very emotional person. I think it would have been extremely difficult for me to go through all of that without faith. In that sense, I feel fortunate to have this understanding.
Lex Fridman
So faith really helped you when you lost your father?
So faith really helped you when you lost your father?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
This was the only thing that helped. Nothing else worked. I know a couple of people who have lost someone very close to them, and they struggle to accept it. They would ask, “Why? Why? Why?” So many questions. I told them, to answer that question, you need to go deeper into religion and try to understand why were you even born in the first place, and why do these thoughts even come into your head? And what if you didn’t have any thoughts at all? What if you couldn’t think, couldn’t understand anything? These thoughts, this awareness, your mind, your abilities, none of that was there before. Then it appeared. Why? That’s the question. None of us existed. Then we were born. We were little. We weren’t aware of anything. We didn’t remember anything.
This was the only thing that helped. Nothing else worked. I know a couple of people who have lost someone very close to them, and they struggle to accept it. They would ask, “Why? Why? Why?” So many questions. I told them, to answer that question, you need to go deeper into religion and try to understand why were you even born in the first place, and why do these thoughts even come into your head? And what if you didn’t have any thoughts at all? What if you couldn’t think, couldn’t understand anything? These thoughts, this awareness, your mind, your abilities, none of that was there before. Then it appeared. Why? That’s the question. None of us existed. Then we were born. We were little. We weren’t aware of anything. We didn’t remember anything.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Then little by little, we grew up and became adults. We became successful, became somebody. We became who we are. So why did all of this come specifically to you? There are so many questions like that. And so these questions are, let’s say, a kind of guide through life. And for me that’s what religion is. It guides me and helps me.
Then little by little, we grew up and became adults. We became successful, became somebody. We became who we are. So why did all of this come specifically to you? There are so many questions like that. And so these questions are, let’s say, a kind of guide through life. And for me that’s what religion is. It guides me and helps me.
Lex Fridman
You often say, “Alhamdulillah, all praise to God.” That’s very powerful, that sense of gratitude. Can you tell us, can you explain why you say it so often?
You often say, “Alhamdulillah, all praise to God.” That’s very powerful, that sense of gratitude. Can you tell us, can you explain why you say it so often?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
You know the saying, the tongue speaks what the heart is full of. The way you speak shows what’s in your heart. If you have something dark in your heart, your words will show it, no doubt. We all have some dark parts in our hearts. Every single person has them. Sometimes they come out in what we say, how we express ourselves, what we share with people, and so on. Everyone has that. But if your heart is mostly good and pure, then that will also be reflected in your speech. And I just like praising the Almighty and giving all the credit for my success back to Him because everything we have is given to us by the Almighty.
You know the saying, the tongue speaks what the heart is full of. The way you speak shows what’s in your heart. If you have something dark in your heart, your words will show it, no doubt. We all have some dark parts in our hearts. Every single person has them. Sometimes they come out in what we say, how we express ourselves, what we share with people, and so on. Everyone has that. But if your heart is mostly good and pure, then that will also be reflected in your speech. And I just like praising the Almighty and giving all the credit for my success back to Him because everything we have is given to us by the Almighty.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Throughout history, there have been many people who made big mistakes after becoming successful, powerful, and wealthy, and they started saying, “No, no, this happened to me because I’m so great, because I’m so intelligent, because I had vision, because I’ve got the brains, because I’m extremely capable. That’s why all of this came my way.” But at the same time, there were many others who worked just as hard, who weren’t any less intelligent, and the Almighty just didn’t give it to them. He chose you and gave it to you, and you just have to give the credit back to Him. You shouldn’t take the credit for yourself. That’s what I believe. And it’s something I’ve come to through studying my religion.
Throughout history, there have been many people who made big mistakes after becoming successful, powerful, and wealthy, and they started saying, “No, no, this happened to me because I’m so great, because I’m so intelligent, because I had vision, because I’ve got the brains, because I’m extremely capable. That’s why all of this came my way.” But at the same time, there were many others who worked just as hard, who weren’t any less intelligent, and the Almighty just didn’t give it to them. He chose you and gave it to you, and you just have to give the credit back to Him. You shouldn’t take the credit for yourself. That’s what I believe. And it’s something I’ve come to through studying my religion.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I understand that everything the Almighty has given to me is not because of who I am. It’s simply something God has given me as a test to test me and, in the end, see which of my deeds outweigh the others, the good or the bad. Because as a believer, I believe that there will be judgment and everything we have, everything we do, every action we take, we will be held accountable for it. There will be a day of judgment, there will be scales, and everything will be weighed.
I understand that everything the Almighty has given to me is not because of who I am. It’s simply something God has given me as a test to test me and, in the end, see which of my deeds outweigh the others, the good or the bad. Because as a believer, I believe that there will be judgment and everything we have, everything we do, every action we take, we will be held accountable for it. There will be a day of judgment, there will be scales, and everything will be weighed.
Advice for young people
Lex Fridman
What advice would you give young people about life and their careers? Millions of people are watching you and deeply respect you. What would you say about how to live your life? And how do you find your path and stay on it?
What advice would you give young people about life and their careers? Millions of people are watching you and deeply respect you. What would you say about how to live your life? And how do you find your path and stay on it?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Well, I wouldn’t want to speak just from my own perspective. I’d rather bring people back to the scripture, to what the Almighty said, “Read.” That’s the first word revealed in the Holy Quran. The first command is read or ikra. So to everyone listening to or watching this podcast, I would want to bring them back to that. Read, meaning what? Educate yourself, observe, learn, improve, but don’t stay in one place. And anything a person is truly looking for, if they genuinely want to find it, not just find an answer, but find the truth, they can reach it, but they can never reach it without reading. They need to read. When a person reads, what they read enters them into their body, their heart, their mind, and it triggers a search.
Well, I wouldn’t want to speak just from my own perspective. I’d rather bring people back to the scripture, to what the Almighty said, “Read.” That’s the first word revealed in the Holy Quran. The first command is read or ikra. So to everyone listening to or watching this podcast, I would want to bring them back to that. Read, meaning what? Educate yourself, observe, learn, improve, but don’t stay in one place. And anything a person is truly looking for, if they genuinely want to find it, not just find an answer, but find the truth, they can reach it, but they can never reach it without reading. They need to read. When a person reads, what they read enters them into their body, their heart, their mind, and it triggers a search.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
A search for knowledge begins inside them, but if you don’t read, you won’t find anything. Just listening to someone is one thing, but reading is something different. So my advice would be read and find within yourself the strength to come closer to one God and seek to understand why we were sent here in the first place. Today, you and me, we’re almost the same age. So let’s just think about this. For example, my grandfather on my mother’s side passed away in two thousand and three. Now it’s twenty twenty-six. He’s been lying in the grave for twenty-three years. And then there was his grandfather, or let’s say his great-grandfather who also died and has been in the grave for over a hundred years, roughly speaking. But what about people who died two thousand years ago?
A search for knowledge begins inside them, but if you don’t read, you won’t find anything. Just listening to someone is one thing, but reading is something different. So my advice would be read and find within yourself the strength to come closer to one God and seek to understand why we were sent here in the first place. Today, you and me, we’re almost the same age. So let’s just think about this. For example, my grandfather on my mother’s side passed away in two thousand and three. Now it’s twenty twenty-six. He’s been lying in the grave for twenty-three years. And then there was his grandfather, or let’s say his great-grandfather who also died and has been in the grave for over a hundred years, roughly speaking. But what about people who died two thousand years ago?
Khabib Nurmagomedov
They’ve been in the grave for two thousand years. What’s next? It’s a good question, isn’t it? They’ve just been in the grave all this time, and that’s it. So what was the purpose of their life? A person has been in the grave for two thousand years, but maybe lived for seventy years. Roughly speaking, let’s say one hundred. They lived for one hundred years and have been in the grave for two thousand. So what matters more, those one hundred years or these two thousand years? And what happens after those two thousand years end? People believe different things, whether there is a day of judgment or not. That’s where the difference lies between a believer and a non-believer. After everyone is resurrected, there will be the day of judgment.
They’ve been in the grave for two thousand years. What’s next? It’s a good question, isn’t it? They’ve just been in the grave all this time, and that’s it. So what was the purpose of their life? A person has been in the grave for two thousand years, but maybe lived for seventy years. Roughly speaking, let’s say one hundred. They lived for one hundred years and have been in the grave for two thousand. So what matters more, those one hundred years or these two thousand years? And what happens after those two thousand years end? People believe different things, whether there is a day of judgment or not. That’s where the difference lies between a believer and a non-believer. After everyone is resurrected, there will be the day of judgment.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
There will be judgment, and after that, people will enter eternity. Eternity compared to eternity, what are two thousand years? They’re nothing. And we live for, let’s say, seventy years. And many people choose those seventy years over eternal life. And if a person understands that these seventy years they have here, roughly speaking, seventy or eighty years are meant to be used to prepare for what comes after, so that when the day of judgment arrives, and after that judgment they can live forever, not in hell, but in heaven. If that becomes their ultimate goal, then they will strive to do good deeds because they will fear the day of judgment. And that’s really what life is about, preparing yourself for the day of judgment.
There will be judgment, and after that, people will enter eternity. Eternity compared to eternity, what are two thousand years? They’re nothing. And we live for, let’s say, seventy years. And many people choose those seventy years over eternal life. And if a person understands that these seventy years they have here, roughly speaking, seventy or eighty years are meant to be used to prepare for what comes after, so that when the day of judgment arrives, and after that judgment they can live forever, not in hell, but in heaven. If that becomes their ultimate goal, then they will strive to do good deeds because they will fear the day of judgment. And that’s really what life is about, preparing yourself for the day of judgment.
Lex Fridman
That’s true. To truly understand life and its deeper meaning, you have to think about eternity. Only then can you really understand your role.
That’s true. To truly understand life and its deeper meaning, you have to think about eternity. Only then can you really understand your role.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Actually, it can keep a person away from evil. From evil and it can stop them from treating other people badly. It can hold a person back. But if you don’t have that understanding, if a person lives completely convinced that there’s nothing after death, what’s there to stop him from doing evil? Just like that. What do you think? And on top of that, an even more dangerous combination. You become powerful, wealthy, and you become famous. What now? Suddenly every door is open to you. Just imagine a person like that. And on top of all that, he doesn’t believe in the day of judgment. He doesn’t believe he’ll be held accountable for his actions. That’s, you know, it’s like a nuclear bomb. He can end up causing harm to people everywhere.
Actually, it can keep a person away from evil. From evil and it can stop them from treating other people badly. It can hold a person back. But if you don’t have that understanding, if a person lives completely convinced that there’s nothing after death, what’s there to stop him from doing evil? Just like that. What do you think? And on top of that, an even more dangerous combination. You become powerful, wealthy, and you become famous. What now? Suddenly every door is open to you. Just imagine a person like that. And on top of all that, he doesn’t believe in the day of judgment. He doesn’t believe he’ll be held accountable for his actions. That’s, you know, it’s like a nuclear bomb. He can end up causing harm to people everywhere.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
But if you know that for everything you have here, you’ll eventually have to answer, that there will be a day of judgment and that you’ll be called to account, and if you fail that test, you’ll burn in hell forever. That’ll make you rein yourself in a little. You’ll have to take that into consideration. You’ll have to tighten things up a little. You’ll begin to understand that you’re not nearly as important as the image you’ve created of yourself in your own mind. You start becoming more, as Americans say, down to earth. You become more grounded. You’re not flying, you’re walking on the ground.
But if you know that for everything you have here, you’ll eventually have to answer, that there will be a day of judgment and that you’ll be called to account, and if you fail that test, you’ll burn in hell forever. That’ll make you rein yourself in a little. You’ll have to take that into consideration. You’ll have to tighten things up a little. You’ll begin to understand that you’re not nearly as important as the image you’ve created of yourself in your own mind. You start becoming more, as Americans say, down to earth. You become more grounded. You’re not flying, you’re walking on the ground.
Lex Fridman
You once put it beautifully. You can allow money and fame to stay in your hand, but not in your heart. You’ve still got many years ahead of you, but you’re already an example of someone who’s become famous, made money, and remained the same person.
You once put it beautifully. You can allow money and fame to stay in your hand, but not in your heart. You’ve still got many years ahead of you, but you’re already an example of someone who’s become famous, made money, and remained the same person.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
If money stays in your hands and not in your heart, that’s a good thing. But the moment it gets into a person’s heart, it corrupts them. Once it’s there, it’s very difficult to pull it out of your heart. If you have wealth in your hands and use it properly for good causes, for the right purposes, for people in need, for your family, relatives, friends, people from your hometown, that’s a good thing. But as soon as that wealth gets into your heart, it becomes very difficult to share it with others. And this is a very dangerous, very dangerous place for a person to end up. And I’m sorry, but as a believer, I believe that most people in hell will be wealthy.
If money stays in your hands and not in your heart, that’s a good thing. But the moment it gets into a person’s heart, it corrupts them. Once it’s there, it’s very difficult to pull it out of your heart. If you have wealth in your hands and use it properly for good causes, for the right purposes, for people in need, for your family, relatives, friends, people from your hometown, that’s a good thing. But as soon as that wealth gets into your heart, it becomes very difficult to share it with others. And this is a very dangerous, very dangerous place for a person to end up. And I’m sorry, but as a believer, I believe that most people in hell will be wealthy.
Lex Fridman
One of the reasons millions of people find you so interesting to watch is that you’re constantly growing. First, you were a great fighter. Now you’re becoming a leader. Your wisdom just, it keeps increasing. You’re evolving as a person, but still the core values remain. It’s good to see, inspiring for people. Money and fame haven’t changed you. You’re just growing as a human being, as you always have.
One of the reasons millions of people find you so interesting to watch is that you’re constantly growing. First, you were a great fighter. Now you’re becoming a leader. Your wisdom just, it keeps increasing. You’re evolving as a person, but still the core values remain. It’s good to see, inspiring for people. Money and fame haven’t changed you. You’re just growing as a human being, as you always have.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
I hope it’s in the right direction. It’s just, the thing is people only see the good. They don’t see the bad. And we all have the good side and the bad side. Everyone, sadly. And especially when it comes to celebrities, we only see, we only show the best side of ourselves. Even when you post photos, you only post the good ones, the pictures where you look your best. So I hope that the way people see me, as you pointed out, is the way I really am, because it’s difficult to judge yourself objectively. You’re always biased when it comes to yourself. That’s how it is. We tend to think highly of ourselves, right? You can’t really see yourself objectively. We hide our flaws and put our best qualities on display. Sometimes people even start believing in a fake version of themselves.
I hope it’s in the right direction. It’s just, the thing is people only see the good. They don’t see the bad. And we all have the good side and the bad side. Everyone, sadly. And especially when it comes to celebrities, we only see, we only show the best side of ourselves. Even when you post photos, you only post the good ones, the pictures where you look your best. So I hope that the way people see me, as you pointed out, is the way I really am, because it’s difficult to judge yourself objectively. You’re always biased when it comes to yourself. That’s how it is. We tend to think highly of ourselves, right? You can’t really see yourself objectively. We hide our flaws and put our best qualities on display. Sometimes people even start believing in a fake version of themselves.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
For me, I try to stay on the honest path throughout my life to remain true to who I really am and to show my true self to people. Maybe not everyone agrees with my behavior, my opinions, my worldview, or my attitudes towards sports, religion, and other things. Not everyone shares my views. Not everyone is a fan of mine. There are people who, let’s say, see me very differently. So I’m just… I’ve tried, I continue to try to be who I am. That’s all. And I hope that my ending will be a good one, too. Well, you know, at least that’s my hope.
For me, I try to stay on the honest path throughout my life to remain true to who I really am and to show my true self to people. Maybe not everyone agrees with my behavior, my opinions, my worldview, or my attitudes towards sports, religion, and other things. Not everyone shares my views. Not everyone is a fan of mine. There are people who, let’s say, see me very differently. So I’m just… I’ve tried, I continue to try to be who I am. That’s all. And I hope that my ending will be a good one, too. Well, you know, at least that’s my hope.
Lex Fridman
You’ve stayed the same, but you’ve also grown. I mean, today you even managed to say something nice about Barça. So see, that’s progress. Yeah. Well done.
You’ve stayed the same, but you’ve also grown. I mean, today you even managed to say something nice about Barça. So see, that’s progress. Yeah. Well done.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Come on, without Barcelona, there wouldn’t be Real Madrid. If the Spanish league didn’t have either Real Madrid or Barcelona, it just wouldn’t be the same. They’ve been competing against each other for how many years? One hundred twenty. It’s hard to imagine Barcelona and Real Madrid without each other, and so is the Spanish league without that rivalry. It’s impossible to imagine. So yeah, we have to give you some credit, but Real Madrid is the royal club. Come on. It’s the best. You know?
Come on, without Barcelona, there wouldn’t be Real Madrid. If the Spanish league didn’t have either Real Madrid or Barcelona, it just wouldn’t be the same. They’ve been competing against each other for how many years? One hundred twenty. It’s hard to imagine Barcelona and Real Madrid without each other, and so is the Spanish league without that rivalry. It’s impossible to imagine. So yeah, we have to give you some credit, but Real Madrid is the royal club. Come on. It’s the best. You know?
Lex Fridman
And thanks to both of them, we’ve been able to enjoy truly incredible football for so many years.
And thanks to both of them, we’ve been able to enjoy truly incredible football for so many years.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
For so many years, yeah.
For so many years, yeah.
Lex Fridman
Khabib, brother, I don’t even have the words to explain how honored I am that you’re here talking with me today and showing me so much warmth. There’s no way to fully express what you mean to millions of your fans around the world, including me. Thank you so much for everything. Thank you for this conversation.
Khabib, brother, I don’t even have the words to explain how honored I am that you’re here talking with me today and showing me so much warmth. There’s no way to fully express what you mean to millions of your fans around the world, including me. Thank you so much for everything. Thank you for this conversation.
Khabib Nurmagomedov
Thank you. Thank you very much, Lex.
Thank you. Thank you very much, Lex.
Lex Fridman
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Khabib Nurmagomedov. And again, thank you for everything. I love you all. Goodbye, my friends. See you next time.
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Khabib Nurmagomedov. And again, thank you for everything. I love you all. Goodbye, my friends. See you next time.
Files for Khabib Nurmagomedov Episode | Lex Fridman Podcast #500
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Transcript for Gary Gallagher: American Civil War, Slavery, Lincoln, Grant & Lee | Lex Fridman Podcast #499
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #499 with Gary Gallagher.
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Table of Contents
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- 0:00 – Episode highlight
- 1:29 – Introduction
- 1:52 – What caused the Civil War?
- 11:49 – Slavery
- 39:23 – Lincoln
- 54:19 – Grant vs Lee
- 1:03:13 – Could the Civil War have been avoided?
- 1:12:39 – The bloodiest war in US history
- 1:29:47 – How the Confederate Army could’ve won
- 1:50:22 – Key battles of the Civil War
- 2:13:23 – Best and Worst Presidents
- 2:27:23 – Robert E. Lee
- 2:46:56 – The most important battle of the Civil War
- 2:57:07 – The final showdown of the Civil War – Grant vs Lee
- 3:19:26 – Lost Cause and Confederate Monuments
- 3:36:54 – Extreme political division in US
Episode highlight
Gary Gallagher
You cannot control what a great military event can set loose. More battle casualties than US forces had suffered in every war combined down to that point happened in two days. Two and a half months after that, George B. McClellan’s army engaged with Lee’s army in what came to be called the Seven Days Battles at Richmond, 36,000 casualties. So those two together just showed that this was gonna be on a totally different scale. He added a psychological twist. What Grant envisioned his doing, and Sheridan actually did it in the Shenandoah Valley before Sherman did it in Georgia, is go into an agriculturally productive area, burn the mills, kill the livestock, destroy the crops, lay waste to it so that it can’t be a logistical support of the Confederacy anymore.
You cannot control what a great military event can set loose. More battle casualties than US forces had suffered in every war combined down to that point happened in two days. Two and a half months after that, George B. McClellan’s army engaged with Lee’s army in what came to be called the Seven Days Battles at Richmond, 36,000 casualties. So those two together just showed that this was gonna be on a totally different scale. He added a psychological twist. What Grant envisioned his doing, and Sheridan actually did it in the Shenandoah Valley before Sherman did it in Georgia, is go into an agriculturally productive area, burn the mills, kill the livestock, destroy the crops, lay waste to it so that it can’t be a logistical support of the Confederacy anymore.
Gary Gallagher
Sheridan did it in the Shenandoah Valley, and then Sherman did it in Georgia. But Sherman said, “But I’m also going to break them psychologically. I’m gonna show them that my army can go wherever it wants to go whenever it wants to go, and there’s nothing Jefferson Davis can do about it.” The “great forces are all that matters and individuals don’t really matter” notion of history, I think, is ridiculous. Individuals really matter. For the United States, Lincoln and Grant matter beyond calculation- … in this war. And on the Confederate side, if you take Lee out of the picture, the war doesn’t last nearly as long as it does. In terms of causation, if you take slavery out of the picture, there is no Civil War, period.
Sheridan did it in the Shenandoah Valley, and then Sherman did it in Georgia. But Sherman said, “But I’m also going to break them psychologically. I’m gonna show them that my army can go wherever it wants to go whenever it wants to go, and there’s nothing Jefferson Davis can do about it.” The “great forces are all that matters and individuals don’t really matter” notion of history, I think, is ridiculous. Individuals really matter. For the United States, Lincoln and Grant matter beyond calculation- … in this war. And on the Confederate side, if you take Lee out of the picture, the war doesn’t last nearly as long as it does. In terms of causation, if you take slavery out of the picture, there is no Civil War, period.
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Gary Gallagher, a historian of the American Civil War. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Gary Gallagher.
The following is a conversation with Gary Gallagher, a historian of the American Civil War. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Gary Gallagher.
What caused the Civil War?
Lex Fridman
The American Civil War broke out in 1861. What were the causes of the Civil War? Could it have been avoided, or was it inevitable?
The American Civil War broke out in 1861. What were the causes of the Civil War? Could it have been avoided, or was it inevitable?
Gary Gallagher
I don’t know if anything is inevitable in history, but it’s certainly safe to say that the conditions were in place to make it possible-
I don’t know if anything is inevitable in history, but it’s certainly safe to say that the conditions were in place to make it possible-
Gary Gallagher
… by the winter of 1860, ’61, and the conditions that made it possible were all related to the institution of slavery and its effects both in the states where slavery was allowed and the states where it was not allowed. And there had been a series of tensions that grew in the decade preceding the 1850s. It’s not that one side wants to get rid of slavery and the other side wants to protect slavery. I’m talking about the white people in the United States now who would be making the political decisions. It’s a question of whether slavery was going to be able to expand into federal territories. That is what really created the starkest difference between the two sections in the 1850s, even in the late 1840s.
… by the winter of 1860, ’61, and the conditions that made it possible were all related to the institution of slavery and its effects both in the states where slavery was allowed and the states where it was not allowed. And there had been a series of tensions that grew in the decade preceding the 1850s. It’s not that one side wants to get rid of slavery and the other side wants to protect slavery. I’m talking about the white people in the United States now who would be making the political decisions. It’s a question of whether slavery was going to be able to expand into federal territories. That is what really created the starkest difference between the two sections in the 1850s, even in the late 1840s.
Gary Gallagher
The issues that came to most perilous a point in the view of many people then had to do with whether slavery would be allowed only where it already existed, or would it be allowed to expand. If it could expand, then it seemed that it might be conceivable at some point even that the slaveholding states could end up with a majority. They were in a minority by 1860, ’61 and feeling beleaguered, feeling threatened. They’d long since lost the population race to the free states. Early in the nation, the most powerful states were slaveholding states. Virginia was by far the most important state. Four of the first five presidents were from Virginia, all slaveholders, all prominent members of the slaveholding class. Those days were long gone by the late 1850s.
The issues that came to most perilous a point in the view of many people then had to do with whether slavery would be allowed only where it already existed, or would it be allowed to expand. If it could expand, then it seemed that it might be conceivable at some point even that the slaveholding states could end up with a majority. They were in a minority by 1860, ’61 and feeling beleaguered, feeling threatened. They’d long since lost the population race to the free states. Early in the nation, the most powerful states were slaveholding states. Virginia was by far the most important state. Four of the first five presidents were from Virginia, all slaveholders, all prominent members of the slaveholding class. Those days were long gone by the late 1850s.
Lex Fridman
So that’s an important thing to say. It wasn’t before the Civil War a discussion about abolishing slavery. It’s about whether slavery, the institution of slavery, should be expanded.
So that’s an important thing to say. It wasn’t before the Civil War a discussion about abolishing slavery. It’s about whether slavery, the institution of slavery, should be expanded.
Gary Gallagher
Allowed to expand into federal territories. There is a portion of the white population that is adamantly in favor of getting rid of slavery immediately. The abolitionists, they… There was even a political party called the Liberty Party that ran a candidate in 1840 and they got a handful of thousand votes. They reached their high point in 1844. They got about two and a half percent of the vote. The abolitionists are a tiny minority even in the North, tiny minority among the white people of the United States. The African American population, nearly four million of them by 1860, of course, would have embraced it instantly and yearned for it. But in the white population, the abolitionists are a tiny minority.
Allowed to expand into federal territories. There is a portion of the white population that is adamantly in favor of getting rid of slavery immediately. The abolitionists, they… There was even a political party called the Liberty Party that ran a candidate in 1840 and they got a handful of thousand votes. They reached their high point in 1844. They got about two and a half percent of the vote. The abolitionists are a tiny minority even in the North, tiny minority among the white people of the United States. The African American population, nearly four million of them by 1860, of course, would have embraced it instantly and yearned for it. But in the white population, the abolitionists are a tiny minority.
Gary Gallagher
They are much despised even across much of the North because they were seen as agitators who roiled the Union and deepened rifts that might bring a significant political break.
They are much despised even across much of the North because they were seen as agitators who roiled the Union and deepened rifts that might bring a significant political break.
Lex Fridman
So how did this escalate to a civil war, this almost policy discussion about the institution of slavery? How did it actually escalate?
So how did this escalate to a civil war, this almost policy discussion about the institution of slavery? How did it actually escalate?
Gary Gallagher
It escalated into a civil war because in the presidential election of 1860… There’d been, there’d been two party s- systems in the United States. The first party system, the Republicans, the Jeffersonian Republicans versus the Federalists. After that, there was, the two parties were the Whig Party against the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party grew out of the Jeffersonian Republican Party. It’s the same party. The Whig Party foundered to a significant degree on the issue of slavery. How do you maintain a national party that has a wing in the Southern states and has a wing in the Northern free states that can handle the issue of slavery? The Democrats managed to do that.
It escalated into a civil war because in the presidential election of 1860… There’d been, there’d been two party s- systems in the United States. The first party system, the Republicans, the Jeffersonian Republicans versus the Federalists. After that, there was, the two parties were the Whig Party against the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party grew out of the Jeffersonian Republican Party. It’s the same party. The Whig Party foundered to a significant degree on the issue of slavery. How do you maintain a national party that has a wing in the Southern states and has a wing in the Northern free states that can handle the issue of slavery? The Democrats managed to do that.
Gary Gallagher
The Whigs could not do it, and so the Whig Party ran their last candidate in 1852, presidential candidate, significant candidate. And the Republican Party emerged in the mid-1850s, took most of the old Whigs into the Republican ranks and one of the Republican, the key Republican platform plank was no expansion of slavery into the territories. Not abolish slavery, no expansion. That was the key in 1856 when they ran their first candidate. In 1860, that is again the key plank in the Republican platform. The Republican platform in 1860 says where slavery exists it will continue, but it cannot expand into the territories.
The Whigs could not do it, and so the Whig Party ran their last candidate in 1852, presidential candidate, significant candidate. And the Republican Party emerged in the mid-1850s, took most of the old Whigs into the Republican ranks and one of the Republican, the key Republican platform plank was no expansion of slavery into the territories. Not abolish slavery, no expansion. That was the key in 1856 when they ran their first candidate. In 1860, that is again the key plank in the Republican platform. The Republican platform in 1860 says where slavery exists it will continue, but it cannot expand into the territories.
Gary Gallagher
When white Southerners saw that, that meant that they were doomed to become an increasingly minority section in the nation, and you would have a federal government increasingly dominated by the free states that could then do the one thing that the white South could not countenance, and that is tamper with the institution of slavery in the South. The presidential election of 1860 brought the destruction of the last national party, which were the Democrats. They couldn’t even settle on a candidate, so you end up with a Northern Democratic candidate running, Stephen A. Douglas, and a Southern candidate running. The convention fractured and John C. Breckinridge ran on the Southern Democrat platform.
When white Southerners saw that, that meant that they were doomed to become an increasingly minority section in the nation, and you would have a federal government increasingly dominated by the free states that could then do the one thing that the white South could not countenance, and that is tamper with the institution of slavery in the South. The presidential election of 1860 brought the destruction of the last national party, which were the Democrats. They couldn’t even settle on a candidate, so you end up with a Northern Democratic candidate running, Stephen A. Douglas, and a Southern candidate running. The convention fractured and John C. Breckinridge ran on the Southern Democrat platform.
Gary Gallagher
You had a Unionist candidate running who just didn’t wanna talk about slavery, let’s talk about the Union, and you had Lincoln running as a Republican. When Lincoln won, the white South looked at Lincoln winning. Here’s a guy who has said that he doesn’t think slavery would expand, but he’d said more than that. He scared the white South more because in 1858, both Lincoln and William Henry Seward, these are two prominent Republicans, had said basically in separate speeches, the House Divided Speech on Lincoln’s part, the Irrepressible Conflict Speech on Seward’s part, that the nation could not continue in the long term half slave and half free. And everybody in the South knew which way they wanted it to be. They would want it to be no slavery.
You had a Unionist candidate running who just didn’t wanna talk about slavery, let’s talk about the Union, and you had Lincoln running as a Republican. When Lincoln won, the white South looked at Lincoln winning. Here’s a guy who has said that he doesn’t think slavery would expand, but he’d said more than that. He scared the white South more because in 1858, both Lincoln and William Henry Seward, these are two prominent Republicans, had said basically in separate speeches, the House Divided Speech on Lincoln’s part, the Irrepressible Conflict Speech on Seward’s part, that the nation could not continue in the long term half slave and half free. And everybody in the South knew which way they wanted it to be. They would want it to be no slavery.
Gary Gallagher
And so Lincoln’s election scared the white South enough so that seven of the 15 slave-holding states seceded in response to Lincoln’s election. They seceded between December 20th, when South Carolina went out, and the end of February. You had the deep South went out.
And so Lincoln’s election scared the white South enough so that seven of the 15 slave-holding states seceded in response to Lincoln’s election. They seceded between December 20th, when South Carolina went out, and the end of February. You had the deep South went out.
Lex Fridman
What was the general view amongst the populace towards slavery? Let’s kind of lay it out. Let’s, you know, for the audience looking back, let’s put ourselves in the mind space of how people saw the world, how people saw slavery, how people saw African Americans.
What was the general view amongst the populace towards slavery? Let’s kind of lay it out. Let’s, you know, for the audience looking back, let’s put ourselves in the mind space of how people saw the world, how people saw slavery, how people saw African Americans.
Gary Gallagher
Well, the baseline among the white Americans, there were about 31, shade more than 31 million Americans in 1860 for the census of 1860. About four million of them were African Americans, three and a half million of those enslaved in the South. Anyway, among the white population, the average attitude toward Black people is what we would call profoundly prejudiced. Doesn’t matter whether you… A lot of people think this is a Southern white thing. They’re the only ones who were prejudiced. By our standards, the overwhelming majority of people in the free states were also deeply prejudiced. It’s important to keep in mind that attitudes towards slavery and attitudes toward race are not necessarily the same.
Well, the baseline among the white Americans, there were about 31, shade more than 31 million Americans in 1860 for the census of 1860. About four million of them were African Americans, three and a half million of those enslaved in the South. Anyway, among the white population, the average attitude toward Black people is what we would call profoundly prejudiced. Doesn’t matter whether you… A lot of people think this is a Southern white thing. They’re the only ones who were prejudiced. By our standards, the overwhelming majority of people in the free states were also deeply prejudiced. It’s important to keep in mind that attitudes towards slavery and attitudes toward race are not necessarily the same.
Gary Gallagher
I mean, you could be against slavery and still be prejudiced against Black people. By our standards, many abolitionists were prejudiced against Black people. They… But the overwhelming majority of the white North… In the North, often had a hard time getting my students to understand the demographics in 1860. The free states in 1860 were more than 98% white. 98% white. African Americans are a tiny minority in the free states. Black people lived in the 15 slaveholding states in 1860. Most of the white North, by our standards, was very prejudiced. They were against the expansion of slavery into the territories because they thought that would circumscribe white opportunities to make an economic life in these federal territories, and they didn’t want that to happen.
I mean, you could be against slavery and still be prejudiced against Black people. By our standards, many abolitionists were prejudiced against Black people. They… But the overwhelming majority of the white North… In the North, often had a hard time getting my students to understand the demographics in 1860. The free states in 1860 were more than 98% white. 98% white. African Americans are a tiny minority in the free states. Black people lived in the 15 slaveholding states in 1860. Most of the white North, by our standards, was very prejudiced. They were against the expansion of slavery into the territories because they thought that would circumscribe white opportunities to make an economic life in these federal territories, and they didn’t want that to happen.
Gary Gallagher
About 45% of the people who lived in the free states were Democrats. Most Democrats had no problem with slavery. I mean, absolutely no problem with the institution of slavery. There would be more problems among Republicans, especially with extension of slavery, although many Democrats, white Democrats in the North were against that as well. The white South was overwhelmingly in favor of slavery. You often read the argument, the kind of neo-Confederate argument that they’ll talk about how most Confederate soldiers didn’t own slaves. That’s true. A large majority of families in the South did not own a single slave. But all white Southerners had a stake in slavery.
About 45% of the people who lived in the free states were Democrats. Most Democrats had no problem with slavery. I mean, absolutely no problem with the institution of slavery. There would be more problems among Republicans, especially with extension of slavery, although many Democrats, white Democrats in the North were against that as well. The white South was overwhelmingly in favor of slavery. You often read the argument, the kind of neo-Confederate argument that they’ll talk about how most Confederate soldiers didn’t own slaves. That’s true. A large majority of families in the South did not own a single slave. But all white Southerners had a stake in slavery.
Gary Gallagher
They had a stake in it as a form of labor control, but more important than that, they had a stake in it as a means of social control. They knew, no matter what they said later in the Jim Crow era of how happy Black people were in the institution of slavery, they knew that Black people, of course, did not want to be enslaved, and they were afraid of what would happen if they weren’t enslaved anymore. They had in the backs of their minds Haiti. Is that what’s gonna… If you live in one of the coastal districts of South Carolina where 90% of the residents are enslaved and you’re a white person, you probably don’t sleep all that soundly at night if you think there’s any chance that the Black people are not gonna remain under the control of the white people.
They had a stake in it as a form of labor control, but more important than that, they had a stake in it as a means of social control. They knew, no matter what they said later in the Jim Crow era of how happy Black people were in the institution of slavery, they knew that Black people, of course, did not want to be enslaved, and they were afraid of what would happen if they weren’t enslaved anymore. They had in the backs of their minds Haiti. Is that what’s gonna… If you live in one of the coastal districts of South Carolina where 90% of the residents are enslaved and you’re a white person, you probably don’t sleep all that soundly at night if you think there’s any chance that the Black people are not gonna remain under the control of the white people.
Gary Gallagher
So all white people in the South had a stake in slavery, not just some. All of them did, and there were all kinds of ways that it would go back and forth. If you were a modest farmer and grew a little bit of cotton, you didn’t have your own cotton gin, but your more wealthy neighbor had a gin, could gin your cotton there, and then you would take your turn on the slave patrols. So there’s a reciprocity in that regard.
So all white people in the South had a stake in slavery, not just some. All of them did, and there were all kinds of ways that it would go back and forth. If you were a modest farmer and grew a little bit of cotton, you didn’t have your own cotton gin, but your more wealthy neighbor had a gin, could gin your cotton there, and then you would take your turn on the slave patrols. So there’s a reciprocity in that regard.
Slavery
Lex Fridman
This is perhaps a bit outside the scope of what we’ll talk about today, but just to lay out the context on slavery in general in human history, we should say that slavery was ubiquitous. It existed in virtually every major civilization in the history of humans. Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, China, the Islamic world, Africa, the Americas, North and South America. We should also say something that, as I was looking into this, another big topic, which is the Atlantic slave trade. And it was surprising to me, the stat I wasn’t aware of, I would venture to say most Americans probably don’t know, that only 4% of African slaves were brought to North America, to the United States.
This is perhaps a bit outside the scope of what we’ll talk about today, but just to lay out the context on slavery in general in human history, we should say that slavery was ubiquitous. It existed in virtually every major civilization in the history of humans. Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, China, the Islamic world, Africa, the Americas, North and South America. We should also say something that, as I was looking into this, another big topic, which is the Atlantic slave trade. And it was surprising to me, the stat I wasn’t aware of, I would venture to say most Americans probably don’t know, that only 4% of African slaves were brought to North America, to the United States.
Gary Gallagher
Brazil is the main destination.
Brazil is the main destination.
Lex Fridman
Brazil, the Caribbean was over 90%, 4.9 million in Brazil, 4 million in the Caribbean, and it was also the last of the Americas to abolish the slave trade. So only 4% of the Atlantic slave trade went to the United States. So there’s– the story of human slavery is one that reaches deep into our history and geographically is much larger than we often study in the context of the United States.
Brazil, the Caribbean was over 90%, 4.9 million in Brazil, 4 million in the Caribbean, and it was also the last of the Americas to abolish the slave trade. So only 4% of the Atlantic slave trade went to the United States. So there’s– the story of human slavery is one that reaches deep into our history and geographically is much larger than we often study in the context of the United States.
Gary Gallagher
One thing the Civil War, which I’ll just call the war for the rest of our discussion, I mean, one thing it did was end slavery in four years in the United States. Whereas in the absence of that war, it might have gone on for decades. I think the United States would have had the ignominious distinction of being the last place to get rid of slavery, would have been after Brazil, would have been after Spanish Cuba, because it was thriving in the United States in 1860. It was making the transition from cash crop agriculture-
One thing the Civil War, which I’ll just call the war for the rest of our discussion, I mean, one thing it did was end slavery in four years in the United States. Whereas in the absence of that war, it might have gone on for decades. I think the United States would have had the ignominious distinction of being the last place to get rid of slavery, would have been after Brazil, would have been after Spanish Cuba, because it was thriving in the United States in 1860. It was making the transition from cash crop agriculture-
Gary Gallagher
… to other, to industrial applications and other applications growing of non not growing, growing just cotton and rice and sugar. It was– There was a time in the literature when people argued that the war was needless, Civil War was needless because slavery was on its way out. That’s absolutely wrong. It was not on its way out. It was thriving. Lincoln said at one point he thought it might have lasted another fifty years, and I don’t know how many years it would have lasted, but I think it would have lasted longer than it did in either Cuba or Brazil if it hadn’t, if the war hadn’t taken place.
… to other, to industrial applications and other applications growing of non not growing, growing just cotton and rice and sugar. It was– There was a time in the literature when people argued that the war was needless, Civil War was needless because slavery was on its way out. That’s absolutely wrong. It was not on its way out. It was thriving. Lincoln said at one point he thought it might have lasted another fifty years, and I don’t know how many years it would have lasted, but I think it would have lasted longer than it did in either Cuba or Brazil if it hadn’t, if the war hadn’t taken place.
Lex Fridman
So slavery was flourishing in the United States from-
So slavery was flourishing in the United States from-
Gary Gallagher
Flourishing.
Flourishing.
Lex Fridman
… from an economics perspective- … especially.
… from an economics perspective- … especially.
Gary Gallagher
The wealthiest part… The 1860 census is our friend, and it tells us that the people who controlled the most wealth in the United States were slaveholders, and their property in slaves alone, not their other holdings, not their land holdings, just property in slaves were valued at about three billion dollars. The value of all industries, all railroads, all of that put together, fewer than two point five billion dollars. So the people who controlled the most wealth, by far, were the slaveholding class.
The wealthiest part… The 1860 census is our friend, and it tells us that the people who controlled the most wealth in the United States were slaveholders, and their property in slaves alone, not their other holdings, not their land holdings, just property in slaves were valued at about three billion dollars. The value of all industries, all railroads, all of that put together, fewer than two point five billion dollars. So the people who controlled the most wealth, by far, were the slaveholding class.
Lex Fridman
So it was the most valuable industry in the United States, and perhaps it is the reason again, a bit out of scope, but maybe it helps lay out the land. Let’s look at the nineteenth century. So most slave-owning societies of the era were able to abolish slavery without people dying at the mass scale that we’ll discuss. So Britain freed eight hundred thousand slaves in 1833- … By buying their freedom. Russia freed twenty-three million serfs in 1861 with a decree, so legally. Brazil, which imported more than ten times as many enslaved Africans as the United States, abolished slavery in 1888 through basic ordinary legislation. No violence. Why did US have a civil war with an estimated seven hundred and fifty thousand people dead in order to abolish slavery?
So it was the most valuable industry in the United States, and perhaps it is the reason again, a bit out of scope, but maybe it helps lay out the land. Let’s look at the nineteenth century. So most slave-owning societies of the era were able to abolish slavery without people dying at the mass scale that we’ll discuss. So Britain freed eight hundred thousand slaves in 1833- … By buying their freedom. Russia freed twenty-three million serfs in 1861 with a decree, so legally. Brazil, which imported more than ten times as many enslaved Africans as the United States, abolished slavery in 1888 through basic ordinary legislation. No violence. Why did US have a civil war with an estimated seven hundred and fifty thousand people dead in order to abolish slavery?
Gary Gallagher
Yes. That’s– The, let’s talk just for a second about the seven hundred and fifty thousand dead soldiers we’re talking about. The, the number for years was six hundred and eighteen thousand, and that’s been revised lately. I think we’re probably certainly more than seven hundred thousand. By far the bloodiest war in, in our history as a percentage of the population off the, off the charts, by far the bloodiest. I think one… I think there’s a big difference between Great Britain doing it and the United States doing it, is Great Britain did it in pla- in other places. There weren’t millions of enslaved people in Great Britain at the time. It’s– I think it’s, for them, it might have been a little bit easier to free enslaved people who don’t live among you than it…
Yes. That’s– The, let’s talk just for a second about the seven hundred and fifty thousand dead soldiers we’re talking about. The, the number for years was six hundred and eighteen thousand, and that’s been revised lately. I think we’re probably certainly more than seven hundred thousand. By far the bloodiest war in, in our history as a percentage of the population off the, off the charts, by far the bloodiest. I think one… I think there’s a big difference between Great Britain doing it and the United States doing it, is Great Britain did it in pla- in other places. There weren’t millions of enslaved people in Great Britain at the time. It’s– I think it’s, for them, it might have been a little bit easier to free enslaved people who don’t live among you than it…
Gary Gallagher
In the United States, the ante is up for the Confederacy because they, the enslaved people lived here, and I think they were, a lot of them were afraid of them and what would happen if they weren’t enslaved anymore. It– The war goes from… It doesn’t begin as a war to end slavery. There’s a major shift in the war, begins in the summer of 1862, where you add to the war. The war aim for the United States initially is to suppress the rebellion, which is what they called this. They didn’t call it the Civil War for the most part during the war. It’s the War of the Rebellion. That’s the goal initially.
In the United States, the ante is up for the Confederacy because they, the enslaved people lived here, and I think they were, a lot of them were afraid of them and what would happen if they weren’t enslaved anymore. It– The war goes from… It doesn’t begin as a war to end slavery. There’s a major shift in the war, begins in the summer of 1862, where you add to the war. The war aim for the United States initially is to suppress the rebellion, which is what they called this. They didn’t call it the Civil War for the most part during the war. It’s the War of the Rebellion. That’s the goal initially.
Gary Gallagher
As the war goes on and becomes costlier and more all-encompassing, they decide that they’re not gonna be able to suppress the rebellion unless they also strike at slavery, because slavery underpins the Confederate war-making capacity. You have enslaved labor that keeps the economy going and allows the Confederacy to mobilize between eighty-five and ninety percent of all their white military-aged males. It’s an astonishing mobilization. It’s only possible because enslaved labor keeps the economy going. If you take that enslaved labor away, it deals a significant blow to the Confederate economy and by extension, to its ability to wage a nineteenth century war.
As the war goes on and becomes costlier and more all-encompassing, they decide that they’re not gonna be able to suppress the rebellion unless they also strike at slavery, because slavery underpins the Confederate war-making capacity. You have enslaved labor that keeps the economy going and allows the Confederacy to mobilize between eighty-five and ninety percent of all their white military-aged males. It’s an astonishing mobilization. It’s only possible because enslaved labor keeps the economy going. If you take that enslaved labor away, it deals a significant blow to the Confederate economy and by extension, to its ability to wage a nineteenth century war.
Lex Fridman
So the Emancipation Proclamation was in part a military strategy.
So the Emancipation Proclamation was in part a military strategy.
Gary Gallagher
Abraham Lincoln based it entirely on his war-making power as commander-in-chief in a time of open rebellion. His inclination, there’s no– He’s often been criticized for not including the soaring language he was capable of in the Emancipation Proclamation. One historian likened it to a bill of lading. It had all the soaring language of a bill of lading. He did that on purpose. He did it because he doesn’t have the power to strike at slavery in the absence of a war. The president doesn’t. And he did it because he knows that he can’t win the war with only Republicans in the army. He needs to keep Democrats on board with the war as well. They’re not in favor of emancipation.
Abraham Lincoln based it entirely on his war-making power as commander-in-chief in a time of open rebellion. His inclination, there’s no– He’s often been criticized for not including the soaring language he was capable of in the Emancipation Proclamation. One historian likened it to a bill of lading. It had all the soaring language of a bill of lading. He did that on purpose. He did it because he doesn’t have the power to strike at slavery in the absence of a war. The president doesn’t. And he did it because he knows that he can’t win the war with only Republicans in the army. He needs to keep Democrats on board with the war as well. They’re not in favor of emancipation.
Gary Gallagher
The one way that they might accept it is as a tool to help achieve union, and to do that we’ve got to strike at the rebels this way, strike at slavery. That will hurt their war effort, and it will also punish the people who brought on the war, and that would make… So Lincoln hoped that by basing it strictly on his war power, it might be more widely accepted across all parts of the loyal states and not as controversial as it was. It was still intensely controversial. It alienated many Democrats when he issued it, who said, “You’re changing what this war is about. We’re willing to shed our blood and maybe risk our lives to restore the union of the founders. I’m not gonna risk my life to free a Black person.” That’s a very, very common attitude among Democrats.
The one way that they might accept it is as a tool to help achieve union, and to do that we’ve got to strike at the rebels this way, strike at slavery. That will hurt their war effort, and it will also punish the people who brought on the war, and that would make… So Lincoln hoped that by basing it strictly on his war power, it might be more widely accepted across all parts of the loyal states and not as controversial as it was. It was still intensely controversial. It alienated many Democrats when he issued it, who said, “You’re changing what this war is about. We’re willing to shed our blood and maybe risk our lives to restore the union of the founders. I’m not gonna risk my life to free a Black person.” That’s a very, very common attitude among Democrats.
Lex Fridman
So what did the Emancipation Proclamation actually do? It emphasized the freeing of slaves in the South.
So what did the Emancipation Proclamation actually do? It emphasized the freeing of slaves in the South.
Gary Gallagher
It’s even more complicated than that. The only place that Lincoln said he had the power as the war leader to strike at slavery is where the rebels were actually still in rebellion and in control. So any place where the US Army was in control, any place– He said that it is in essence United States territory now. I can’t free them there because I don’t have the power. I can only free them where we don’t have the power. So he exempted parts of states and areas in the South that it didn’t apply to as of the moment he signed it. Going forward, any place that the United States Army went where it hadn’t been on January 1st, 1863, the Emancipation Proclamation applied and enslaved people would be freed by it.
It’s even more complicated than that. The only place that Lincoln said he had the power as the war leader to strike at slavery is where the rebels were actually still in rebellion and in control. So any place where the US Army was in control, any place– He said that it is in essence United States territory now. I can’t free them there because I don’t have the power. I can only free them where we don’t have the power. So he exempted parts of states and areas in the South that it didn’t apply to as of the moment he signed it. Going forward, any place that the United States Army went where it hadn’t been on January 1st, 1863, the Emancipation Proclamation applied and enslaved people would be freed by it.
Gary Gallagher
At the, literally at the time he signed it, he didn’t free anybody because he’s only saying, “I can free them where we’re not in control. We have to be in control for this to have effect and for this to have power.”
At the, literally at the time he signed it, he didn’t free anybody because he’s only saying, “I can free them where we’re not in control. We have to be in control for this to have effect and for this to have power.”
Lex Fridman
So in part, this is why the army was the boundary which the freeing was happening.
So in part, this is why the army was the boundary which the freeing was happening.
Gary Gallagher
It’s absolutely the boundary, and Congress had already passed what was called the Second Confiscation Act. It passed this in July of 1862 that announced that all enslaved people belonging to rebels were free. It didn’t apply to people who could prove they were unionists living in the South and owned slaves. Lincoln didn’t make that distinction in the Emancipation Proclamation. His proclamation is broader than the Second Confiscation Act was.
It’s absolutely the boundary, and Congress had already passed what was called the Second Confiscation Act. It passed this in July of 1862 that announced that all enslaved people belonging to rebels were free. It didn’t apply to people who could prove they were unionists living in the South and owned slaves. Lincoln didn’t make that distinction in the Emancipation Proclamation. His proclamation is broader than the Second Confiscation Act was.
Lex Fridman
Okay. There’s so many tangents we can take, but let’s zoom out once again. There’s a difference between cause, as you’ve talked about, cause and motivation.
Okay. There’s so many tangents we can take, but let’s zoom out once again. There’s a difference between cause, as you’ve talked about, cause and motivation.
Gary Gallagher
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman
Quite a large number of people volunteered to fight.
Quite a large number of people volunteered to fight.
Gary Gallagher
In fact, a majority of all the soldiers who fought on both sides were volunteers during the Civil War. About 3 million served, 2.2 million in the United States, 800, 900,000 in the Confederacy. It’s, again, I talk about things that are hard to get students to understand. This is one of them. They have to separate… Causation and motivation are often conflated, and not just by students but also by lots of talking heads on newscasts in the United States who don’t know anything about United States history- … but know what they know. In terms of causation, if you take slavery out of the picture, there is no Civil War, period. That’s not a long conversation you need. You ask the question. That’s the answer. Let’s go to the next question.
In fact, a majority of all the soldiers who fought on both sides were volunteers during the Civil War. About 3 million served, 2.2 million in the United States, 800, 900,000 in the Confederacy. It’s, again, I talk about things that are hard to get students to understand. This is one of them. They have to separate… Causation and motivation are often conflated, and not just by students but also by lots of talking heads on newscasts in the United States who don’t know anything about United States history- … but know what they know. In terms of causation, if you take slavery out of the picture, there is no Civil War, period. That’s not a long conversation you need. You ask the question. That’s the answer. Let’s go to the next question.
Gary Gallagher
The next question is, okay, so were most white people motivated to put on blue uniforms because they wanted to kill slavery? The answer to that is no, they were not. They were motivated to put on blue uniforms to salvage the Union, which they saw as a unique gift that the founding generation, based on the bloodshed in the American Revolution, had bequeathed the successive generations. And the two key parts of what the Union meant for them was, number one, you had a voice in your own government, and someone will always say now to me, “Well, but women couldn’t vote.” That’s right. The people who could vote by our standards were limited in the 19th century, but within the context of the Western world in 1860, the United States had by far the broadest franchise, by far.
The next question is, okay, so were most white people motivated to put on blue uniforms because they wanted to kill slavery? The answer to that is no, they were not. They were motivated to put on blue uniforms to salvage the Union, which they saw as a unique gift that the founding generation, based on the bloodshed in the American Revolution, had bequeathed the successive generations. And the two key parts of what the Union meant for them was, number one, you had a voice in your own government, and someone will always say now to me, “Well, but women couldn’t vote.” That’s right. The people who could vote by our standards were limited in the 19th century, but within the context of the Western world in 1860, the United States had by far the broadest franchise, by far.
Gary Gallagher
And so they argued that’s one thing the Union gives us, and it also gives us the chance to rise economically. Doesn’t guarantee that you can succeed, but it means you’re not doomed to be what your father was. And those are worth fighting for. And so I will put on a uniform so the slave-holding aristocrats and oligarchs, which is what they called them, of the South, they said they’re not… They don’t really believe in democracy. It’s an oligarchy-
And so they argued that’s one thing the Union gives us, and it also gives us the chance to rise economically. Doesn’t guarantee that you can succeed, but it means you’re not doomed to be what your father was. And those are worth fighting for. And so I will put on a uniform so the slave-holding aristocrats and oligarchs, which is what they called them, of the South, they said they’re not… They don’t really believe in democracy. It’s an oligarchy-
Gary Gallagher
… in the South. It’s a slavery-based oligarchy, and we know which way Europe’s going, they said. The revolutions of the 1840s failed in Europe. Europe’s going the wrong way. They’re going toward more aristocracy, more oligarchy, more… And we are the last hope. When Lincoln spoke of the last best hope of Earth, which he did in one of his most memorable phrases, he’s meaning that the United States is a beacon of small D democracy in a Western world that seems to be turning the other way. And those soldiers, it meant, it meant it was that important to them. They are citizens in a republic that people shed blood to establish, and we can’t let it go. Part of the compact is I’m a citizen. I derive these benefits from this republic, from the Union.
… in the South. It’s a slavery-based oligarchy, and we know which way Europe’s going, they said. The revolutions of the 1840s failed in Europe. Europe’s going the wrong way. They’re going toward more aristocracy, more oligarchy, more… And we are the last hope. When Lincoln spoke of the last best hope of Earth, which he did in one of his most memorable phrases, he’s meaning that the United States is a beacon of small D democracy in a Western world that seems to be turning the other way. And those soldiers, it meant, it meant it was that important to them. They are citizens in a republic that people shed blood to establish, and we can’t let it go. Part of the compact is I’m a citizen. I derive these benefits from this republic, from the Union.
Gary Gallagher
I can have a voice in government. I can rise economically or have the chance to. I owe my service to that republic. That’s what most of them would’ve said if you’d pressed them on why they’re doing it. Doesn’t mean everybody was on fire with ideology that way. Some guys would say, “Well, you know what? I’m broke, and I’m gonna get fed and clothed in the army.” But this sense of exceptionalism, exceptionalism’s unpopular now in the United States, but Americans had a sense of themselves as a truly exceptionalist society within the context of the Western world.
I can have a voice in government. I can rise economically or have the chance to. I owe my service to that republic. That’s what most of them would’ve said if you’d pressed them on why they’re doing it. Doesn’t mean everybody was on fire with ideology that way. Some guys would say, “Well, you know what? I’m broke, and I’m gonna get fed and clothed in the army.” But this sense of exceptionalism, exceptionalism’s unpopular now in the United States, but Americans had a sense of themselves as a truly exceptionalist society within the context of the Western world.
Lex Fridman
And as a small aside terminology wise, blue is the Union or what we think of as the United States, and red is the Confederacy.
And as a small aside terminology wise, blue is the Union or what we think of as the United States, and red is the Confederacy.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. On the maps, the Confederate units are red blocks and the United States units are blue blocks. That’s right.
Yes. On the maps, the Confederate units are red blocks and the United States units are blue blocks. That’s right.
Lex Fridman
And, uh…
And, uh…
Gary Gallagher
That, that is correct.
That, that is correct.
Lex Fridman
And the North and the South is another way we’ll refer to it just to clarify.
And the North and the South is another way we’ll refer to it just to clarify.
Gary Gallagher
And let me have a very brief rant on North and South. I prefer to see this as a war between two mid-19th century republics, one of which didn’t last very long and spent its whole life in the midst of a great war. There were 15 slave-holding states in 1860. Only 11 of them seceded from the United States.
And let me have a very brief rant on North and South. I prefer to see this as a war between two mid-19th century republics, one of which didn’t last very long and spent its whole life in the midst of a great war. There were 15 slave-holding states in 1860. Only 11 of them seceded from the United States.
Lex Fridman
Even though there’s 13 stars. We’ll talk about that.
Even though there’s 13 stars. We’ll talk about that.
Gary Gallagher
We’ll talk about that demented notion of things in just a minute, but only 11 leave. So there are four slave-holding states in the United States: Kentucky, and Missouri, and Maryland, and Delaware remain in the United States. So it’s not just North versus South. Those states are all part of the South. It’s the United States versus the Confederacy.
We’ll talk about that demented notion of things in just a minute, but only 11 leave. So there are four slave-holding states in the United States: Kentucky, and Missouri, and Maryland, and Delaware remain in the United States. So it’s not just North versus South. Those states are all part of the South. It’s the United States versus the Confederacy.
Lex Fridman
But see how you referred to it as the United States. So the Union is also referred to as the United States.
But see how you referred to it as the United States. So the Union is also referred to as the United States.
Gary Gallagher
That’s correct. Yes, yes.
That’s correct. Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman
But the Confederacy was, as you write about, a set of people who also had a sense of nationalism, pride.
But the Confederacy was, as you write about, a set of people who also had a sense of nationalism, pride.
Gary Gallagher
Well, and took their founding document. I mean, it took the whole summer of 1787 in Philadelphia, that hot, steamy, humid summer of 1787 to come up with the Constitution. The Confederates did it quickly ’cause they basically had the US Constitution here, a blank piece of paper over here,
Well, and took their founding document. I mean, it took the whole summer of 1787 in Philadelphia, that hot, steamy, humid summer of 1787 to come up with the Constitution. The Confederates did it quickly ’cause they basically had the US Constitution here, a blank piece of paper over here,
Gary Gallagher
… copied most of the Constitution over here, just changed the parts that they needed to make sure slavery was protected, and you didn’t have the wrong kind of tariffs and so forth. That’s one reason they could do it so quickly. It’s absolutely based on the government they’ve been thriving under, which is under the United States Constitution. Both sides claimed they were the true inheritors of the revolutionary generation. That was one of their… They all… Jefferson Davis loved the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration is Abraham Lincoln’s favorite document. They just liked different parts of it.
… copied most of the Constitution over here, just changed the parts that they needed to make sure slavery was protected, and you didn’t have the wrong kind of tariffs and so forth. That’s one reason they could do it so quickly. It’s absolutely based on the government they’ve been thriving under, which is under the United States Constitution. Both sides claimed they were the true inheritors of the revolutionary generation. That was one of their… They all… Jefferson Davis loved the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration is Abraham Lincoln’s favorite document. They just liked different parts of it.
Lex Fridman
So we should think of this as two republics.
So we should think of this as two republics.
Gary Gallagher
I argue that. That makes many people very angry.
I argue that. That makes many people very angry.
Lex Fridman
I will make many people angry today
I will make many people angry today
Gary Gallagher
They say that I am conferring legitimacy on the Confederacy that they don’t deserve, and my response to that is they have a national government. They have a Senate. They have a Congress. They have an army. They have a navy. They have departments. They… It’s… It walks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. In the end, it’s a slaughtered duck faster than it would’ve been because the United States military forces crushed it
They say that I am conferring legitimacy on the Confederacy that they don’t deserve, and my response to that is they have a national government. They have a Senate. They have a Congress. They have an army. They have a navy. They have departments. They… It’s… It walks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. In the end, it’s a slaughtered duck faster than it would’ve been because the United States military forces crushed it
Lex Fridman
We should say that you are respected, admired, loved by most people on both sides in, from a perspective sense. You’re deeply respected by historians of Civil War and just historians of American history. But of course, when you do your job well on a controversial topic in a controversial period of human history- … you’re going to get hopefully an equal amount of critics on both sides.
We should say that you are respected, admired, loved by most people on both sides in, from a perspective sense. You’re deeply respected by historians of Civil War and just historians of American history. But of course, when you do your job well on a controversial topic in a controversial period of human history- … you’re going to get hopefully an equal amount of critics on both sides.
Gary Gallagher
I-
I-
Lex Fridman
And that’s when you do your job well. So sometimes when we speak today, some of the controversial, quote-unquote, controversial things that you express are controversial from that small minority of folks on both sides for different reasons
And that’s when you do your job well. So sometimes when we speak today, some of the controversial, quote-unquote, controversial things that you express are controversial from that small minority of folks on both sides for different reasons
Gary Gallagher
Yes. I won’t be… One of my favorite pieces of hate mail I got was an email where this guy, I had… He was upset that I referred to the Confederacy as a slave-holding republic that was… And he said that he hoped I would develop virulent pancreatic cancer and die a horrible death. Not just regular pancreatic cancer. He wanted virulent pancreatic cancer And then he signed his name and said he’d be happy to talk to me anytime I wanted to
Yes. I won’t be… One of my favorite pieces of hate mail I got was an email where this guy, I had… He was upset that I referred to the Confederacy as a slave-holding republic that was… And he said that he hoped I would develop virulent pancreatic cancer and die a horrible death. Not just regular pancreatic cancer. He wanted virulent pancreatic cancer And then he signed his name and said he’d be happy to talk to me anytime I wanted to
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I’m sure that would be a wonderful conversation
Yeah. I’m sure that would be a wonderful conversation
Gary Gallagher
Yeah
Yeah
Lex Fridman
But there’s also really strong senses throughout the United States of this diversity of opinion of what is the United States
But there’s also really strong senses throughout the United States of this diversity of opinion of what is the United States
Gary Gallagher
Of course. Yes
Of course. Yes
Lex Fridman
And that’s where the passion is really rooted
And that’s where the passion is really rooted
Gary Gallagher
Both sides claim… In the election of 1860, Douglas talked about how much he loved the Union. Lincoln talked about how much he loved the Union. Breckinridge talked about how much he loved the Union. They’re all… And John Bell, who’s the Unionist, the Constitutional Union- That’s all he talked about. They just had different versions of what the Union was
Both sides claim… In the election of 1860, Douglas talked about how much he loved the Union. Lincoln talked about how much he loved the Union. Breckinridge talked about how much he loved the Union. They’re all… And John Bell, who’s the Unionist, the Constitutional Union- That’s all he talked about. They just had different versions of what the Union was
Lex Fridman
And that’s why I love this country. I think it’s the greatest country on Earth, and it has a bunch of people that very strongly disagree with each other. Of course hopefully never again escalating to the degree that it did during this period of time. So we talked about the blue people on the map and the red people on the map. It may be a silly thing to ask, but sticking with the motivation, why would, let’s say, a farm boy in Ohio-
And that’s why I love this country. I think it’s the greatest country on Earth, and it has a bunch of people that very strongly disagree with each other. Of course hopefully never again escalating to the degree that it did during this period of time. So we talked about the blue people on the map and the red people on the map. It may be a silly thing to ask, but sticking with the motivation, why would, let’s say, a farm boy in Ohio-
Gary Gallagher
Yeah
Yeah
Lex Fridman
… want to die for the Union?
… want to die for the Union?
Gary Gallagher
That is the most important, and I didn’t even ask you to ask that question. That’s the, that’s the hardest thing-
That is the most important, and I didn’t even ask you to ask that question. That’s the, that’s the hardest thing-
Lex Fridman
Let’s be honest. You paid me a lot of money to ask that question, yeah
Let’s be honest. You paid me a lot of money to ask that question, yeah
Gary Gallagher
I didn’t think it was so much
I didn’t think it was so much
Lex Fridman
Okay. I’m sorry. Go ahead. I won’t distract
Okay. I’m sorry. Go ahead. I won’t distract
Gary Gallagher
No. I tell my students at the beginning of my Civil War class that if they couldn’t explain, I didn’t use Ohio. I said, “If you can’t explain why a farmer from Vermont- … would put on a blue uniform and pick up a musket to make South Carolina come back in, why didn’t he just say, ‘Great. South Carolina’s gone. I never liked them anyway. This is a better union.’ If you can’t explain that, then you can’t understand the Civil War.” And the key to that, I’ll come back to it, is union because he would’ve said, “If we allow South Carolina to go, that means that other places could go and you could dismantle. And the only reason they’re going is because they didn’t like who was elected president.
No. I tell my students at the beginning of my Civil War class that if they couldn’t explain, I didn’t use Ohio. I said, “If you can’t explain why a farmer from Vermont- … would put on a blue uniform and pick up a musket to make South Carolina come back in, why didn’t he just say, ‘Great. South Carolina’s gone. I never liked them anyway. This is a better union.’ If you can’t explain that, then you can’t understand the Civil War.” And the key to that, I’ll come back to it, is union because he would’ve said, “If we allow South Carolina to go, that means that other places could go and you could dismantle. And the only reason they’re going is because they didn’t like who was elected president.
Gary Gallagher
They didn’t say that Lincoln was corrupt. They didn’t say Republicans bought the election. They just didn’t like who won the election. And so if the republic is so fragile that it can’t have an election without having the people who didn’t like who won leave, then the founders had wasted their time, the revolution was for nothing, all that bloodshed meant nothing. You had to step up and save this precious republic that was put in place by the revolutionary generation and gave its citizens the benefits that I’ve already talked about. That’s why they would put on a uniform and risk their life, because they believed a citizen… These are citizen soldiers. We don’t know what that means so much now because we have a professional military establishment now.
They didn’t say that Lincoln was corrupt. They didn’t say Republicans bought the election. They just didn’t like who won the election. And so if the republic is so fragile that it can’t have an election without having the people who didn’t like who won leave, then the founders had wasted their time, the revolution was for nothing, all that bloodshed meant nothing. You had to step up and save this precious republic that was put in place by the revolutionary generation and gave its citizens the benefits that I’ve already talked about. That’s why they would put on a uniform and risk their life, because they believed a citizen… These are citizen soldiers. We don’t know what that means so much now because we have a professional military establishment now.
Gary Gallagher
Not– I mean, even when I was younger, there was still a draft, but that’s gone now. And so we don’t understand what the concept of citizen soldier was, that you owe something back to the republic that has conveyed these things to you, and that’s why the guy from Vermont or New Hampshire or Ohio would put on a uniform and go into military service.
Not– I mean, even when I was younger, there was still a draft, but that’s gone now. And so we don’t understand what the concept of citizen soldier was, that you owe something back to the republic that has conveyed these things to you, and that’s why the guy from Vermont or New Hampshire or Ohio would put on a uniform and go into military service.
Lex Fridman
Is it possible for us to understand that level of love of nation and belief in nation? Is this very distant from what America is today?
Is it possible for us to understand that level of love of nation and belief in nation? Is this very distant from what America is today?
Gary Gallagher
I actually think many people probably still feel that way, but they’re not the ones who are on television- … most of the time. Republicans in the midst of the war commented about the fact that even with this gigantic conflict going on, immigration continued at a high level. People coming into a nation that was in the middle of a great war. And they said, “This is a testament to the promise of the United States.” And I think that promise continues. I mean, we’ve argued about… As with so many things, Americans have no sense of history. They believe we’ve never argued about immigration before. We’ve always argued about immigration, with some people always saying, “Shut the door. They’re ruining us. The Italians are ruining us. The Irish are Catholics. They’re ruining us.
I actually think many people probably still feel that way, but they’re not the ones who are on television- … most of the time. Republicans in the midst of the war commented about the fact that even with this gigantic conflict going on, immigration continued at a high level. People coming into a nation that was in the middle of a great war. And they said, “This is a testament to the promise of the United States.” And I think that promise continues. I mean, we’ve argued about… As with so many things, Americans have no sense of history. They believe we’ve never argued about immigration before. We’ve always argued about immigration, with some people always saying, “Shut the door. They’re ruining us. The Italians are ruining us. The Irish are Catholics. They’re ruining us.
Gary Gallagher
God, the Southern Europeans are even worse than the Irish were.” The people change, the arguments stay very much the same, and I think it’s really telling that in the midst of the war, people would say, “Look at our republic. It offers so much to people that even in the midst of this great war, they’re still coming- … to the United States.”
God, the Southern Europeans are even worse than the Irish were.” The people change, the arguments stay very much the same, and I think it’s really telling that in the midst of the war, people would say, “Look at our republic. It offers so much to people that even in the midst of this great war, they’re still coming- … to the United States.”
Lex Fridman
And like you said, both sides, both these republics claimed, for example, George Washington.
And like you said, both sides, both these republics claimed, for example, George Washington.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. They both claim… I’ll leave it at that. They both claim George Washington. They wanted to be right with the man, which is what George Washington was. He’s the indispensable man, no question. Both sides wanted him on their side. They both quoted Thomas Jefferson, although Confederates were a little more leery of Jefferson ’cause he’s too complicated for them sometimes. But no, they wanted to be right with the founders and claimed to be right with the founders. The Confederates would say, “The Constitution allowed slavery. What are you talking about we’re out of step with the Constitution? We’re in step with the Con- You’re the ones who are out of step with the Constitution.”
Yes. They both claim… I’ll leave it at that. They both claim George Washington. They wanted to be right with the man, which is what George Washington was. He’s the indispensable man, no question. Both sides wanted him on their side. They both quoted Thomas Jefferson, although Confederates were a little more leery of Jefferson ’cause he’s too complicated for them sometimes. But no, they wanted to be right with the founders and claimed to be right with the founders. The Confederates would say, “The Constitution allowed slavery. What are you talking about we’re out of step with the Constitution? We’re in step with the Con- You’re the ones who are out of step with the Constitution.”
Lex Fridman
What about the topic of states’ rights? At, at the very least-
What about the topic of states’ rights? At, at the very least-
Gary Gallagher
I love state rights. State rights… I mean, I love the way people use it with the Civil War. They associate it solely with Southern states- … of course. State rights is always available in United States history for somebody who’s not happy with what the federal government is doing. During the War of 1812, it was New England that most often talked- … about resorting to state rights. They had a convention where they sort of wandered over towards secession territory in the Hartford Convention. We think of it as state rights because as you lead up to the Civil War, you hear white Southerners talking about it all the time. “We need our state rights.” I always love to ask people who say that, “What are all the state rights?
I love state rights. State rights… I mean, I love the way people use it with the Civil War. They associate it solely with Southern states- … of course. State rights is always available in United States history for somebody who’s not happy with what the federal government is doing. During the War of 1812, it was New England that most often talked- … about resorting to state rights. They had a convention where they sort of wandered over towards secession territory in the Hartford Convention. We think of it as state rights because as you lead up to the Civil War, you hear white Southerners talking about it all the time. “We need our state rights.” I always love to ask people who say that, “What are all the state rights?
Gary Gallagher
Give me– List the state rights that the white South is concerned.”
Give me– List the state rights that the white South is concerned.”
Gary Gallagher
You know, “Give me the top three. No, really, just give me the top two.” There’s only one. The state right that they’re worried about is the right of their state to interpose its power between a federal government that might try to interfere with slavery and a state government that wants to maintain it. That’s the state right that matters then. Northern states also resorted to state rights during this, the ramp-up to the Civil War, with what were called personal liberty laws. They tried to interpose their state power in between a federal government that would use its power to force escaped, enslaved people back into slavery. It’s whoever’s unhappy with the federal government, the concept of state rights is available, and both sides used it.
You know, “Give me the top three. No, really, just give me the top two.” There’s only one. The state right that they’re worried about is the right of their state to interpose its power between a federal government that might try to interfere with slavery and a state government that wants to maintain it. That’s the state right that matters then. Northern states also resorted to state rights during this, the ramp-up to the Civil War, with what were called personal liberty laws. They tried to interpose their state power in between a federal government that would use its power to force escaped, enslaved people back into slavery. It’s whoever’s unhappy with the federal government, the concept of state rights is available, and both sides used it.
Lex Fridman
And of course, the beautiful, dark, ironic hypocrisy was illustrated by the Confederacy when they were the first to pass a national draft in American history.
And of course, the beautiful, dark, ironic hypocrisy was illustrated by the Confederacy when they were the first to pass a national draft in American history.
Gary Gallagher
Like, irony is wonderful- … in history. Another thing that I love to teach is that the most intrusive central government in American history, by far, until deep into the 20th century, was the Confederate central government, because it had to do things to keep the war going that it couldn’t have done unless the central government stepped in, such as passing the first national conscription law in American history. The government, the US government never forced people into uniform before the Civil War. The Confederates did it first. They did it in the spring of 1862. They passed a national graduated income tax. And when taxing didn’t work, when their money became so devalued, they then passed what they called the tax in kind. They would take a percentage of your crop.
Like, irony is wonderful- … in history. Another thing that I love to teach is that the most intrusive central government in American history, by far, until deep into the 20th century, was the Confederate central government, because it had to do things to keep the war going that it couldn’t have done unless the central government stepped in, such as passing the first national conscription law in American history. The government, the US government never forced people into uniform before the Civil War. The Confederates did it first. They did it in the spring of 1862. They passed a national graduated income tax. And when taxing didn’t work, when their money became so devalued, they then passed what they called the tax in kind. They would take a percentage of your crop.
Gary Gallagher
They allowed the government to impress horses and mules and enslaved labor to work on… All of these were intrusions from the central government that drove true state rights people crazy in the Confederacy. Confederates didn’t have political parties because they said the founders didn’t want them, so we won’t have them. But what they did have was a sort of nationalist, “We’re gonna let the central government do whatever it needs to do.” That’s Jefferson Davis’ wing, and Robert E. Lee’s over there, too. And the people like the vice president, Alexander Stephens, who said, “You can’t do all this stuff because the states should have more power.” The only reason the war lasted as long as it did is because the central government did things no one ever would have believed they would do.
They allowed the government to impress horses and mules and enslaved labor to work on… All of these were intrusions from the central government that drove true state rights people crazy in the Confederacy. Confederates didn’t have political parties because they said the founders didn’t want them, so we won’t have them. But what they did have was a sort of nationalist, “We’re gonna let the central government do whatever it needs to do.” That’s Jefferson Davis’ wing, and Robert E. Lee’s over there, too. And the people like the vice president, Alexander Stephens, who said, “You can’t do all this stuff because the states should have more power.” The only reason the war lasted as long as it did is because the central government did things no one ever would have believed they would do.
Gary Gallagher
He also got rid of habeas corpus just like Abraham Lincoln did in selected situations.
He also got rid of habeas corpus just like Abraham Lincoln did in selected situations.
Lex Fridman
And of course, we should really emphasize that on both sides, those volunteers, on the Confederacy, there’s a very large number of people percentage-wise that volunteered to fight. And then I believe the volunteer period was one year, and then there’s all kind of funky stuff that the government started doing to trap those people into then serving and-
And of course, we should really emphasize that on both sides, those volunteers, on the Confederacy, there’s a very large number of people percentage-wise that volunteered to fight. And then I believe the volunteer period was one year, and then there’s all kind of funky stuff that the government started doing to trap those people into then serving and-
Gary Gallagher
Here’s what the Confederacy did. They… Nobody thinks the war’s gonna last a long time- … in the spring of 1861. So if you enlist for a year- … that’s probably plenty of time to finish this war. Well, a year goes by and a significant percentage of the Confederate men under arms are due to get out. So what the Confederate Congress did was pass conscription. We’re gonna put every- make everybody liable to three-year service. And in the midst of doing that, all you guys who volunteered for one year are now in for two more years.
Here’s what the Confederacy did. They… Nobody thinks the war’s gonna last a long time- … in the spring of 1861. So if you enlist for a year- … that’s probably plenty of time to finish this war. Well, a year goes by and a significant percentage of the Confederate men under arms are due to get out. So what the Confederate Congress did was pass conscription. We’re gonna put every- make everybody liable to three-year service. And in the midst of doing that, all you guys who volunteered for one year are now in for two more years.
Gary Gallagher
Well, that outraged… I mean, “That’s, you’re breaking faith with us,” they said. They didn’t stop there. Later they revised it when the war kept going on and then the three years guys were gonna get out, then the Congress stepped in and said, “You’re in for the duration.” The bottom line is, the Confederacy ever gets you in uniform, you don’t get out because they keep changing the rules on you. And that was considered, national conscription was considered a fundamental abridgment of individual rights by many people. That’s something the government should never force a citizen into uniform. A citizen should volunteer their service. US government waited a year, then it did it in the spring of 1863, although it always respected original terms of enlistment.
Well, that outraged… I mean, “That’s, you’re breaking faith with us,” they said. They didn’t stop there. Later they revised it when the war kept going on and then the three years guys were gonna get out, then the Congress stepped in and said, “You’re in for the duration.” The bottom line is, the Confederacy ever gets you in uniform, you don’t get out because they keep changing the rules on you. And that was considered, national conscription was considered a fundamental abridgment of individual rights by many people. That’s something the government should never force a citizen into uniform. A citizen should volunteer their service. US government waited a year, then it did it in the spring of 1863, although it always respected original terms of enlistment.
Gary Gallagher
Never made it the war for the duration the way the Confederacy did.
Never made it the war for the duration the way the Confederacy did.
Lex Fridman
Quick pause for a bathroom break if it’s okay. Quick 10-second shout-out to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to my conversation with Gary Gallagher. All right, we’re back. There’s so many different directions we can go, but I am somebody who believes that individuals can steer the direction of history. So one angle to look at here is some of the legendary historical figures from this time.
Quick pause for a bathroom break if it’s okay. Quick 10-second shout-out to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to my conversation with Gary Gallagher. All right, we’re back. There’s so many different directions we can go, but I am somebody who believes that individuals can steer the direction of history. So one angle to look at here is some of the legendary historical figures from this time.
Lincoln
Lex Fridman
Let’s talk about some of the key figures of the Civil War. We have Abraham Lincoln, of course, the President of the United States who held the Union together and turned the war into a fight for a new birth of freedom. Jefferson Davis, who you mentioned, President of the Confederacy. Ulysses S. Grant, somebody we’ll talk about quite a bit, General in Chief of the Union armies. Robert E. Lee on the other side, the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia, somebody who you have studied for decades now. We’ll talk a lot about him. There’s Sherman, there’s Stonewall Jackson, there’s Frederick Douglass, there is McClellan, there is John Brown, a militant abolitionist. Many more figures, but let’s look at three at first. Let’s look at Lincoln, Grant, and Lee. Lincoln first.
Let’s talk about some of the key figures of the Civil War. We have Abraham Lincoln, of course, the President of the United States who held the Union together and turned the war into a fight for a new birth of freedom. Jefferson Davis, who you mentioned, President of the Confederacy. Ulysses S. Grant, somebody we’ll talk about quite a bit, General in Chief of the Union armies. Robert E. Lee on the other side, the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia, somebody who you have studied for decades now. We’ll talk a lot about him. There’s Sherman, there’s Stonewall Jackson, there’s Frederick Douglass, there is McClellan, there is John Brown, a militant abolitionist. Many more figures, but let’s look at three at first. Let’s look at Lincoln, Grant, and Lee. Lincoln first.
Lex Fridman
So Abraham Lincoln, we have this backwoods lawyer with a single year of schooling who somehow outgrew every polished man around him and became one of the most consequential leaders in human history. So what do we need to understand? What can we possibly understand at a 10,000-foot level about Lincoln that made it all possible? What was it about Lincoln’s mind that made this man do what he did?
So Abraham Lincoln, we have this backwoods lawyer with a single year of schooling who somehow outgrew every polished man around him and became one of the most consequential leaders in human history. So what do we need to understand? What can we possibly understand at a 10,000-foot level about Lincoln that made it all possible? What was it about Lincoln’s mind that made this man do what he did?
Gary Gallagher
Almost nobody continues to go up in my estimation as I get older and older, but Lincoln is one of the people who does. And Lincoln is quite frankly a mystery to me. I don’t see how you get Abraham Lincoln out of someone who came from his very poor background. You said he had a year of schooling. You’re being very generous to him there. He didn’t even really have a year of formal schooling. And you end up with a person who is the most eloquent president we’ve ever had by a very wide margin and I think even more eloquent than Jefferson, and who is able to distill into the fewest possible words the most complex ideas and topics imaginable and just have them ring in a way that almost no one is able to do. He is someone…
Almost nobody continues to go up in my estimation as I get older and older, but Lincoln is one of the people who does. And Lincoln is quite frankly a mystery to me. I don’t see how you get Abraham Lincoln out of someone who came from his very poor background. You said he had a year of schooling. You’re being very generous to him there. He didn’t even really have a year of formal schooling. And you end up with a person who is the most eloquent president we’ve ever had by a very wide margin and I think even more eloquent than Jefferson, and who is able to distill into the fewest possible words the most complex ideas and topics imaginable and just have them ring in a way that almost no one is able to do. He is someone…
Gary Gallagher
He had an ego, but I think one of his real gifts was the ability to put his ego aside and keep his eye on the goal. He was able to really focus, and he focused relentlessly on, number one, suppressing the rebellion and restoring the Union, but also getting… He hated the institution of slavery. He’s not an abolitionist, but he hated the institution of slavery and he was very happy to see that slavery was added to the roster of what the United States would insist on at the end of the war. He’s able to let all the other things go. He can pay attention to many things, but he never loses his… his principal focus was, “How do I maintain this great war?” And it’s an all- it’s really hard to get people to understand the scope of the Civil War.
He had an ego, but I think one of his real gifts was the ability to put his ego aside and keep his eye on the goal. He was able to really focus, and he focused relentlessly on, number one, suppressing the rebellion and restoring the Union, but also getting… He hated the institution of slavery. He’s not an abolitionist, but he hated the institution of slavery and he was very happy to see that slavery was added to the roster of what the United States would insist on at the end of the war. He’s able to let all the other things go. He can pay attention to many things, but he never loses his… his principal focus was, “How do I maintain this great war?” And it’s an all- it’s really hard to get people to understand the scope of the Civil War.
Gary Gallagher
There are 31 million people in the United States then. About a shade more than 3 million put on uniforms. It would be as if we had 35 to 40 million people under arms now. For the Confederates, it would be like having more like 55 million people-
There are 31 million people in the United States then. About a shade more than 3 million put on uniforms. It would be as if we had 35 to 40 million people under arms now. For the Confederates, it would be like having more like 55 million people-
Gary Gallagher
… under arms as a percentage of the population. The dead would be between 6 million and 7.5 million, depending on how you count it. The scope is just… During the Gulf Wars, New York Times put a picture of every United States service person who was killed, put a picture in the paper over the scope of those wars, and that is about as many people as were shot in a few hours at Antietam. It’s just very different to get students now to understand the different scale, and that’s what Lincoln’s dealing with. How do I keep the focus on a war that is becoming far more costly than anyone imagined, and eating up our young manpower at a rate that no one… There’s never been anything in our history to prepare the United States for this.
… under arms as a percentage of the population. The dead would be between 6 million and 7.5 million, depending on how you count it. The scope is just… During the Gulf Wars, New York Times put a picture of every United States service person who was killed, put a picture in the paper over the scope of those wars, and that is about as many people as were shot in a few hours at Antietam. It’s just very different to get students now to understand the different scale, and that’s what Lincoln’s dealing with. How do I keep the focus on a war that is becoming far more costly than anyone imagined, and eating up our young manpower at a rate that no one… There’s never been anything in our history to prepare the United States for this.
Gary Gallagher
Winfield Scott captured Mexico City with an army of fewer than 15,000 during the war with Mexico. US Grant has 120,000. I mean, the whole scale is just so different that it’s hard to come to terms with it.
Winfield Scott captured Mexico City with an army of fewer than 15,000 during the war with Mexico. US Grant has 120,000. I mean, the whole scale is just so different that it’s hard to come to terms with it.
Gary Gallagher
And that’s what Lincoln was dealing with. I think the fact that he was willing to surround himself with really able counselors is important. Who does he put in his cabinet? He puts his main rivals in the cabinet. He put William Henry Seward in his cabinet, who’s the most famous Republican in the country. He puts Salmon P. Chase, who’s a very smart and effective and ambitious person from Ohio, in his cabinet. He surrounds himself with people who are capable and energetic and have their own ambitions, he’s not afraid to do that, all of whom had far better educations than he had and didn’t have a rural backwoods accent like he did. It’s also a measure of how confident he was. He didn’t pretend to talk a way he… to talk in a fashion that he- … didn’t actually talk.
And that’s what Lincoln was dealing with. I think the fact that he was willing to surround himself with really able counselors is important. Who does he put in his cabinet? He puts his main rivals in the cabinet. He put William Henry Seward in his cabinet, who’s the most famous Republican in the country. He puts Salmon P. Chase, who’s a very smart and effective and ambitious person from Ohio, in his cabinet. He surrounds himself with people who are capable and energetic and have their own ambitions, he’s not afraid to do that, all of whom had far better educations than he had and didn’t have a rural backwoods accent like he did. It’s also a measure of how confident he was. He didn’t pretend to talk a way he… to talk in a fashion that he- … didn’t actually talk.
Gary Gallagher
He would’ve pronounced words in ways that anybody who went to Harvard would just sneer at. He didn’t, and he knew they sneered, and he didn’t care. Because eventually, all of them, except the ones with only a 20-watt bulb, figured out that Lincoln was actually probably smarter than they were and had a better grasp of things than they did and brought them around. He really brought Seward around, which is very impressive.
He would’ve pronounced words in ways that anybody who went to Harvard would just sneer at. He didn’t, and he knew they sneered, and he didn’t care. Because eventually, all of them, except the ones with only a 20-watt bulb, figured out that Lincoln was actually probably smarter than they were and had a better grasp of things than they did and brought them around. He really brought Seward around, which is very impressive.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, there’s so many fascinating things about Lincoln. So backwoods of Kentucky, and Kentucky is a very important state in this story. And the right words, the right speeches, the right debates at this moment in history, it really does make me wonder, you know, if Lincoln didn’t exist, if certain humans in history didn’t exist, that everything could have turned out very differently.
Yeah, there’s so many fascinating things about Lincoln. So backwoods of Kentucky, and Kentucky is a very important state in this story. And the right words, the right speeches, the right debates at this moment in history, it really does make me wonder, you know, if Lincoln didn’t exist, if certain humans in history didn’t exist, that everything could have turned out very differently.
Gary Gallagher
The great forces are all that matters and individuals don’t really matter notion of history I think is ridiculous. Individuals really matter. For the United States, Lincoln and Grant matter beyond calculation- … in this, in this war. And on the Confederate side, if you take Lee out of the picture, the war doesn’t last nearly as long as it does. In fact, we’ll talk about this later probably, I think it could have ended early in the summer of 1862 with slavery still intact. I mean, in a perverse way, Lee furthers the cause of emancipation because he extends the war long enough that the United States says, “We have to do this. We’ve gotta get rid of slavery to defeat the rebels.”
The great forces are all that matters and individuals don’t really matter notion of history I think is ridiculous. Individuals really matter. For the United States, Lincoln and Grant matter beyond calculation- … in this, in this war. And on the Confederate side, if you take Lee out of the picture, the war doesn’t last nearly as long as it does. In fact, we’ll talk about this later probably, I think it could have ended early in the summer of 1862 with slavery still intact. I mean, in a perverse way, Lee furthers the cause of emancipation because he extends the war long enough that the United States says, “We have to do this. We’ve gotta get rid of slavery to defeat the rebels.”
Lex Fridman
So, and also on the psychological side, Lincoln is a, this is a fascinating study because he carried deep depression all his life.
So, and also on the psychological side, Lincoln is a, this is a fascinating study because he carried deep depression all his life.
Gary Gallagher
He had black, black moods in his life, yes, he did.
He had black, black moods in his life, yes, he did.
Lex Fridman
And so for somebody that has to go through an all-encompassing war, to be able to sort of survive through that, to think through that, without an education, without any acquired skill that enables him to be a commander-in-chief during a time of war. He’s got nothing in the toolbox, and yet he steps up.
And so for somebody that has to go through an all-encompassing war, to be able to sort of survive through that, to think through that, without an education, without any acquired skill that enables him to be a commander-in-chief during a time of war. He’s got nothing in the toolbox, and yet he steps up.
Gary Gallagher
If you looked at his resume and Jefferson Davis’s-
If you looked at his resume and Jefferson Davis’s-
Lex Fridman
Right
Right
Gary Gallagher
… in 1860 and said, “Okay, here, here are the two guys who are gonna be your respective commanders-in-chief. Who do you want on your team?”
… in 1860 and said, “Okay, here, here are the two guys who are gonna be your respective commanders-in-chief. Who do you want on your team?”
Gary Gallagher
Lincoln had no administrative experience beyond running a little law office. He had one two-year term in the House of Representatives in terms of national government. He had no military service to speak of, a little while in the Black Hawk War as a junior officer in the Black Hawk War. Didn’t check any of the education boxes, as you said. Jefferson Davis was a graduate of West Point. He’d commanded more men in the war with Mexico than most of the men who commanded armies during the Civil War. He’d chaired the Senate Committee on Military Affairs. He’d been Secretary of War, a lot of administrative experience. He checked every box. Lincoln checked none of the boxes, and yet you got Lincoln as a commander-in-chief. It’s really quite remarkable.
Lincoln had no administrative experience beyond running a little law office. He had one two-year term in the House of Representatives in terms of national government. He had no military service to speak of, a little while in the Black Hawk War as a junior officer in the Black Hawk War. Didn’t check any of the education boxes, as you said. Jefferson Davis was a graduate of West Point. He’d commanded more men in the war with Mexico than most of the men who commanded armies during the Civil War. He’d chaired the Senate Committee on Military Affairs. He’d been Secretary of War, a lot of administrative experience. He checked every box. Lincoln checked none of the boxes, and yet you got Lincoln as a commander-in-chief. It’s really quite remarkable.
Gary Gallagher
He could listen to people that he thought knew more about something than he did. That’s a quality that all of our presidents, to put it mildly, have not had. Lincoln did have that. He could listen. He could admit when he was wrong and change his mind about things, and he could put up with obnoxious behavior on the part of people that he thought might deliver the goods. And a perfect example of this is George Brinton McClellan, whom we’ll talk about later, his young… who was general-in-chief for a while, commanded the Army of the Potomac. In 1861, Lincoln and his Secretary of State, William Henry Seward, went to McClellan’s house to talk to McClellan. Went to McClellan’s house. The commander-in-chief goes to McClellan’s house. McClellan wasn’t there.
He could listen to people that he thought knew more about something than he did. That’s a quality that all of our presidents, to put it mildly, have not had. Lincoln did have that. He could listen. He could admit when he was wrong and change his mind about things, and he could put up with obnoxious behavior on the part of people that he thought might deliver the goods. And a perfect example of this is George Brinton McClellan, whom we’ll talk about later, his young… who was general-in-chief for a while, commanded the Army of the Potomac. In 1861, Lincoln and his Secretary of State, William Henry Seward, went to McClellan’s house to talk to McClellan. Went to McClellan’s house. The commander-in-chief goes to McClellan’s house. McClellan wasn’t there.
Gary Gallagher
The butler or somebody put them in a side room. McClellan came home, was told Lincoln was there. He went upstairs and then told the person who worked for him to go tell the president that he’d be happy to talk to him some other time. And so Lincoln just left. He never went back to see McClellan again, didn’t pitch a fit, filed that away. Okay, McClellan’s an ass, but I think he might win the war. I mean, he had that ability to do that, to put aside that kind of behavior on the part of someone if he thought they would deliver. He just has a number of qualities, I think, that are very unusual to find in someone. And as you say, he did have depressive moments, and he– we talk about how, what bad days presidents have.
The butler or somebody put them in a side room. McClellan came home, was told Lincoln was there. He went upstairs and then told the person who worked for him to go tell the president that he’d be happy to talk to him some other time. And so Lincoln just left. He never went back to see McClellan again, didn’t pitch a fit, filed that away. Okay, McClellan’s an ass, but I think he might win the war. I mean, he had that ability to do that, to put aside that kind of behavior on the part of someone if he thought they would deliver. He just has a number of qualities, I think, that are very unusual to find in someone. And as you say, he did have depressive moments, and he– we talk about how, what bad days presidents have.
Gary Gallagher
Now, Lincoln would have said, I’ll take that president’s worst day every day rather than the days that I get, for the most part. I mean, he– it’s hard to imagine the burdens that he carried.
Now, Lincoln would have said, I’ll take that president’s worst day every day rather than the days that I get, for the most part. I mean, he– it’s hard to imagine the burdens that he carried.
Lex Fridman
And at the right time was just a handful of words expressed something that no military could possibly do.
And at the right time was just a handful of words expressed something that no military could possibly do.
Gary Gallagher
Explain what the war was about, why it was worth fighting, what it meant, his second inaugural address. I mean, people went– when people went to hear the president give his second inaugural address on that cold day in 1865, what they wanted to hear, they finally beat the rebel scum from their point of view. Let’s have some retribution here. What are we going to do to them? How are we going to make these people who brought this great war pay for this? And what does Lincoln tell them? He tells them slavery caused it. Everybody knows that somehow that’s the truth, and we’re all implicated in it. I mean, he didn’t tell them anything that they wanted to hear that day. And it was– and it took great courage, I think, to do that at that moment, to tell an audience what they didn’t want to hear.
Explain what the war was about, why it was worth fighting, what it meant, his second inaugural address. I mean, people went– when people went to hear the president give his second inaugural address on that cold day in 1865, what they wanted to hear, they finally beat the rebel scum from their point of view. Let’s have some retribution here. What are we going to do to them? How are we going to make these people who brought this great war pay for this? And what does Lincoln tell them? He tells them slavery caused it. Everybody knows that somehow that’s the truth, and we’re all implicated in it. I mean, he didn’t tell them anything that they wanted to hear that day. And it was– and it took great courage, I think, to do that at that moment, to tell an audience what they didn’t want to hear.
Gary Gallagher
And he did it in the most eloquent language that any president’s– that’s the greatest speech in American history, the second inaugural, in my view.
And he did it in the most eloquent language that any president’s– that’s the greatest speech in American history, the second inaugural, in my view.
Lex Fridman
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Gary Gallagher
And we’re all complicit in this because we all countenanced slavery. I mean, that’s all in that one speech. And it’s a short speech. The whole speech probably only lasted eight or nine minutes. And he also pays tribute to the citizen soldiers at the beginning of it because he says that the war is going well and we all know that everything depends on what our soldiers do. And by that he meant saving the union, killing slavery, it all depends on them. And then he comes back and finishes with his tribute to the soldiers at the end.
And we’re all complicit in this because we all countenanced slavery. I mean, that’s all in that one speech. And it’s a short speech. The whole speech probably only lasted eight or nine minutes. And he also pays tribute to the citizen soldiers at the beginning of it because he says that the war is going well and we all know that everything depends on what our soldiers do. And by that he meant saving the union, killing slavery, it all depends on them. And then he comes back and finishes with his tribute to the soldiers at the end.
Lex Fridman
And I have to say the Gettysburg Address.
And I have to say the Gettysburg Address.
Gary Gallagher
Oh, no, you can’t.
Oh, no, you can’t.
Lex Fridman
If I may, it’s only maybe 200 words. Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract.
If I may, it’s only maybe 200 words. Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract.
Lex Fridman
The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us, that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion, that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. That’s a big statement about what this country is about. It’s about freedom.
The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us, that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion, that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. That’s a big statement about what this country is about. It’s about freedom.
Gary Gallagher
And he comes back to, when most people read that, the very last part of it, they emphasize the prepositions of the people, by the people, for the people. Lincoln, it’s not about the prepositions. It’s about the people. He earlier in the war referred to this as a people’s contest. It’s the people that are the key, the people who make up the republic, the people who will derive the freedoms and liberties that the– I mean, it’s an amazing– and it probably took you two minutes to read that. He was finished before most people knew he had started at Gettysburg. Almost nobody heard him say that. The one thing wrong about it is when he said no one would remember very long what he said there. It’s been remembered pretty well.
And he comes back to, when most people read that, the very last part of it, they emphasize the prepositions of the people, by the people, for the people. Lincoln, it’s not about the prepositions. It’s about the people. He earlier in the war referred to this as a people’s contest. It’s the people that are the key, the people who make up the republic, the people who will derive the freedoms and liberties that the– I mean, it’s an amazing– and it probably took you two minutes to read that. He was finished before most people knew he had started at Gettysburg. Almost nobody heard him say that. The one thing wrong about it is when he said no one would remember very long what he said there. It’s been remembered pretty well.
Grant vs Lee
Lex Fridman
And let’s talk about the two other figures which we’ll return to time and time again: Ulysses S. Grant and Robert E. Lee. So who was Grant? So this is a man who failed at farming, failed at business, failed at his role in the peacetime army. Then when the war came, the war revealed a genius.
And let’s talk about the two other figures which we’ll return to time and time again: Ulysses S. Grant and Robert E. Lee. So who was Grant? So this is a man who failed at farming, failed at business, failed at his role in the peacetime army. Then when the war came, the war revealed a genius.
Gary Gallagher
So he’d known a lot of failure, he’d known a lot of setbacks, and his wartime record shows that he’d learned to deal with those things. He had a great, tremendous relationship with his wife, a very strong family life, a family he loved. I think that was the rock for him. But during the war, what he exhibited was an absolute willingness to break rules, to take risks, to take responsibility for what he was doing, whether it was a success or a failure, and not to be cast down by things that didn’t work. If something didn’t work, he’d say, “Okay, that didn’t work. Now let’s do this.” He very famously, when he got to Virginia in 1864 and took over the Army of the Potomac, he had all these subordinates who were saying, “Well, what if General Lee does this?
So he’d known a lot of failure, he’d known a lot of setbacks, and his wartime record shows that he’d learned to deal with those things. He had a great, tremendous relationship with his wife, a very strong family life, a family he loved. I think that was the rock for him. But during the war, what he exhibited was an absolute willingness to break rules, to take risks, to take responsibility for what he was doing, whether it was a success or a failure, and not to be cast down by things that didn’t work. If something didn’t work, he’d say, “Okay, that didn’t work. Now let’s do this.” He very famously, when he got to Virginia in 1864 and took over the Army of the Potomac, he had all these subordinates who were saying, “Well, what if General Lee does this?
Gary Gallagher
What if General Lee does that?” He finally said, “Why don’t we start– let’s not worry about what General Lee is gonna do and let General Lee worry about what we’re going to do?”
What if General Lee does that?” He finally said, “Why don’t we start– let’s not worry about what General Lee is gonna do and let General Lee worry about what we’re going to do?”
Gary Gallagher
I mean, he just had… He was unflappable under stress. He was the perfect person to end up heading the Union armies, and he and Lincoln– And Lincoln realized that, and he proved indispensable. But he has this reputation as a butcher, Grant the Butcher. That’s something that former Confederates and some Democrats in the North fastened on him. His preferred way of fighting wasn’t just kind of slug it out. It’s really interesting to compare his record in the war and Lee’s record in the war before they wound up opposing each other in Virginia in a really bloody overland campaign. Grant’s total casualties in all his great battles before they met were 37,000. Lee’s were over 98,000-
I mean, he just had… He was unflappable under stress. He was the perfect person to end up heading the Union armies, and he and Lincoln– And Lincoln realized that, and he proved indispensable. But he has this reputation as a butcher, Grant the Butcher. That’s something that former Confederates and some Democrats in the North fastened on him. His preferred way of fighting wasn’t just kind of slug it out. It’s really interesting to compare his record in the war and Lee’s record in the war before they wound up opposing each other in Virginia in a really bloody overland campaign. Grant’s total casualties in all his great battles before they met were 37,000. Lee’s were over 98,000-
Gary Gallagher
… in the same period. The bloodiest general in US history by far in terms of how many of his men get shot is Robert E. Lee. The most careful demographic study of any Civil War army is one done of Lee’s army by a scholar named Joe Glatthaar, and Joe figured out that if you were a soldier in Robert E. Lee’s army, you had a 73% chance of becoming a casualty. 73%. Grant’s casualties get high when he runs into Robert E. Lee, just like everybody else. So the butcher tag is completely unfair about Grant. He’s also known as a drunk, and people have gone back and forth on that, whether he just had a weakness, couldn’t hold his alcohol very well or was okay as long as his wife was around and he had a key staff officer to help him.
… in the same period. The bloodiest general in US history by far in terms of how many of his men get shot is Robert E. Lee. The most careful demographic study of any Civil War army is one done of Lee’s army by a scholar named Joe Glatthaar, and Joe figured out that if you were a soldier in Robert E. Lee’s army, you had a 73% chance of becoming a casualty. 73%. Grant’s casualties get high when he runs into Robert E. Lee, just like everybody else. So the butcher tag is completely unfair about Grant. He’s also known as a drunk, and people have gone back and forth on that, whether he just had a weakness, couldn’t hold his alcohol very well or was okay as long as his wife was around and he had a key staff officer to help him.
Gary Gallagher
The point is, alcohol never got in the way of anything Grant did during the war, and he had a superlative record of delivering victories when the United States needed them, and Lincoln figured that out. And the absolute proof of his stature because of this is that in the March of 1864, Congress decided to dust off the rank of three-star general, lieutenant general, and give it to Grant. The only person who’d ever had that rank was George Washington, the man, Jorge. I mean, he is the man. And so they are saying, “Okay, Grant, you get the rank the man had,” and that shows there’s never been anyone else who got it. You’re the first. And then he would also be the first to get a four-star rank in the United States Army. That…
The point is, alcohol never got in the way of anything Grant did during the war, and he had a superlative record of delivering victories when the United States needed them, and Lincoln figured that out. And the absolute proof of his stature because of this is that in the March of 1864, Congress decided to dust off the rank of three-star general, lieutenant general, and give it to Grant. The only person who’d ever had that rank was George Washington, the man, Jorge. I mean, he is the man. And so they are saying, “Okay, Grant, you get the rank the man had,” and that shows there’s never been anyone else who got it. You’re the first. And then he would also be the first to get a four-star rank in the United States Army. That…
Gary Gallagher
There couldn’t be a better indication of his stature than that he got R- Washington’s rank. Winfield Scott had had it by brevet. Grant got the actual rank.
There couldn’t be a better indication of his stature than that he got R- Washington’s rank. Winfield Scott had had it by brevet. Grant got the actual rank.
Lex Fridman
So in part, the Grant the Butcher label was from the Overland Campaign that we’ll talk about-
So in part, the Grant the Butcher label was from the Overland Campaign that we’ll talk about-
Gary Gallagher
It is from the Overland Campaign
It is from the Overland Campaign
Lex Fridman
… as the military decisions made there.
… as the military decisions made there.
Gary Gallagher
Yep.
Yep.
Lex Fridman
Many would argue that those are critically important for the success of the war.
Many would argue that those are critically important for the success of the war.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. He and Lee are often compared, but for the last year of the war, they’re operating on– it’s not apples to apples because Grant is general in chief and is managing the entire war effort. He’s managing what Sherman’s doing and what Sheridan’s doing and what Nathaniel Bank… Lee is an army commander. He can recommend things to Jefferson Davis, but he never commands more than an army, and so he never operates at the level that Grant did. Very late in the war, he was made general in chief when it was so late that it didn’t matter.
Yes. He and Lee are often compared, but for the last year of the war, they’re operating on– it’s not apples to apples because Grant is general in chief and is managing the entire war effort. He’s managing what Sherman’s doing and what Sheridan’s doing and what Nathaniel Bank… Lee is an army commander. He can recommend things to Jefferson Davis, but he never commands more than an army, and so he never operates at the level that Grant did. Very late in the war, he was made general in chief when it was so late that it didn’t matter.
Lex Fridman
So who was Robert E. Lee? In April 1861, Lee was offered command of the Union Army-
So who was Robert E. Lee? In April 1861, Lee was offered command of the Union Army-
Gary Gallagher
He was
He was
Lex Fridman
… and chose Virginia instead.
… and chose Virginia instead.
Gary Gallagher
He did.
He did.
Lex Fridman
What was he actually choosing in that decision? Was he choosing home? Was he choosing honor? Was he choosing slavery? And maybe just zooming out, what do we need to understand in the early steps about Robert E. Lee? Who was the man?
What was he actually choosing in that decision? Was he choosing home? Was he choosing honor? Was he choosing slavery? And maybe just zooming out, what do we need to understand in the early steps about Robert E. Lee? Who was the man?
Gary Gallagher
Well, Lee is sort of the antithesis of Grant in some ways. Lee is from an aristocratic family. Grant was from a solidly middle-class family. Lee’s from an aristocratic family at the very top of the Virginia aristocracy. The Lees are all… He has uncles who were prominent, two signed the Declaration of Independence. His father was a famous commander under George Washington. He’s– His father’s the one who said that Washington was first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen. That’s Lee’s father, who was later a prominent Virginia politician. Lee’s idol is George Washington. He patterns himself on Washington. He differs from him in some ways, but he patterns himself on Washington.
Well, Lee is sort of the antithesis of Grant in some ways. Lee is from an aristocratic family. Grant was from a solidly middle-class family. Lee’s from an aristocratic family at the very top of the Virginia aristocracy. The Lees are all… He has uncles who were prominent, two signed the Declaration of Independence. His father was a famous commander under George Washington. He’s– His father’s the one who said that Washington was first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen. That’s Lee’s father, who was later a prominent Virginia politician. Lee’s idol is George Washington. He patterns himself on Washington. He differs from him in some ways, but he patterns himself on Washington.
Gary Gallagher
He considered Washington the most admirable person in United States history. And then, of course, he almost undoes the work that George Washington put in place during the American Revolution. He chose Virginia. He didn’t leave… He didn’t resign his commission in the United States Army to go with the Confederacy. He resigned his commission in the United States Army to go to Virginia, which wasn’t in the Confederacy yet, become the head of state forces in Virginia. But then when Virginia went into the Confederacy, he took his Confederate commission and ended up as the third-ranking officer in Confederate service, and he makes an easy transition to Confederate loyalty. I think it’s his loyalty to Virginia and what that means.
He considered Washington the most admirable person in United States history. And then, of course, he almost undoes the work that George Washington put in place during the American Revolution. He chose Virginia. He didn’t leave… He didn’t resign his commission in the United States Army to go with the Confederacy. He resigned his commission in the United States Army to go to Virginia, which wasn’t in the Confederacy yet, become the head of state forces in Virginia. But then when Virginia went into the Confederacy, he took his Confederate commission and ended up as the third-ranking officer in Confederate service, and he makes an easy transition to Confederate loyalty. I think it’s his loyalty to Virginia and what that means.
Gary Gallagher
That means his family, and of course that means slavery. That’s part of what that loyalty is. He’s devoted to the slave-holding South as well as to Virginia. Virginia’s a subset of that. All of that is in one bundle with Lee. It’s all… But he also had been an ardent US nationalist earlier in his career, and a very successful military officer. Winfield Scott thought he was the greatest soldier in the army, and Scott, he probably really thought, “Except for me.” But Scott is a great soldier that people don’t remember that way because he became a kind of Jabba the Hutt figure by the time of the Civil War. He’s enormous, weighs 350 pounds, has to be winched onto his horse. But he was a very smart guy and he thought very highly of Lee.
That means his family, and of course that means slavery. That’s part of what that loyalty is. He’s devoted to the slave-holding South as well as to Virginia. Virginia’s a subset of that. All of that is in one bundle with Lee. It’s all… But he also had been an ardent US nationalist earlier in his career, and a very successful military officer. Winfield Scott thought he was the greatest soldier in the army, and Scott, he probably really thought, “Except for me.” But Scott is a great soldier that people don’t remember that way because he became a kind of Jabba the Hutt figure by the time of the Civil War. He’s enormous, weighs 350 pounds, has to be winched onto his horse. But he was a very smart guy and he thought very highly of Lee.
Gary Gallagher
Lee was a superb soldier, as he would show during the war, but he’s on the wrong side.
Lee was a superb soldier, as he would show during the war, but he’s on the wrong side.
Lex Fridman
Maybe just to throw in a few more characters, I do think the folks on both sides that are of the more radical persuasion are quite interesting. Somebody you spoke about, I’m not sure where, I think it might’ve been in your lecture series, about Thaddeus Stevens.
Maybe just to throw in a few more characters, I do think the folks on both sides that are of the more radical persuasion are quite interesting. Somebody you spoke about, I’m not sure where, I think it might’ve been in your lecture series, about Thaddeus Stevens.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, Thaddeus Stevens.
Yes, Thaddeus Stevens.
Lex Fridman
He’s a-
He’s a-
Gary Gallagher
Thaddeus Stevens was one of the most radical of the radical Republicans. He’s a congressman from Pennsylvania who… People think people say harsh things now in Congress; Thaddeus Stevens just eviscerated people. And he was way out… I mean, he was an ardent abolitionist and for equal rights for women in many ways and he picked up a number of causes and championed them.
Thaddeus Stevens was one of the most radical of the radical Republicans. He’s a congressman from Pennsylvania who… People think people say harsh things now in Congress; Thaddeus Stevens just eviscerated people. And he was way out… I mean, he was an ardent abolitionist and for equal rights for women in many ways and he picked up a number of causes and championed them.
Lex Fridman
I think in your lecture you mentioned this thing which I just love, the slime line.
I think in your lecture you mentioned this thing which I just love, the slime line.
Gary Gallagher
He had a- This is his kind of line. He’s sitting in the House of Representatives and one of his opponents- … and he’s speaking, and one of his opponents starts to come down to the floor and he says, and this is a paraphrase, “I’m gonna pause while my colleague,” from wherever he was from, “slinks across the floor of this House and adheres to his seat by his own slime.”
He had a- This is his kind of line. He’s sitting in the House of Representatives and one of his opponents- … and he’s speaking, and one of his opponents starts to come down to the floor and he says, and this is a paraphrase, “I’m gonna pause while my colleague,” from wherever he was from, “slinks across the floor of this House and adheres to his seat by his own slime.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Beautiful.
Yeah. Beautiful.
Gary Gallagher
That’s a great line. Impromptu. He had a… Women used to ask for locks of hair as, from famous people, and he was completely bald and wore a full wig. He had a woman stop him on the steps to the Capitol and ask for a lock of his hair, took his whole wig off and said, “Madam, have them all.” And c-
That’s a great line. Impromptu. He had a… Women used to ask for locks of hair as, from famous people, and he was completely bald and wore a full wig. He had a woman stop him on the steps to the Capitol and ask for a lock of his hair, took his whole wig off and said, “Madam, have them all.” And c-
Lex Fridman
Which is brilliant.
Which is brilliant.
Gary Gallagher
… no it’s very good.
… no it’s very good.
Lex Fridman
But of the radical persuasion.
But of the radical persuasion.
Gary Gallagher
Oh, absolutely. Yes, he defined it. He is the character in Birth of a Nation that Stoneman, the character in Stoneman, the evil radical Republican named Stoneman, is patterned on Thaddeus Stevens.
Oh, absolutely. Yes, he defined it. He is the character in Birth of a Nation that Stoneman, the character in Stoneman, the evil radical Republican named Stoneman, is patterned on Thaddeus Stevens.
Could the Civil War have been avoided?
Lex Fridman
All right. If we can, let’s talk about the buildup to the war. What were the key states on both sides that were debating? What are the ones that were certainly going to be firmly on one side or the other? And maybe what are the ones that were critical at the, at the borderline?
All right. If we can, let’s talk about the buildup to the war. What were the key states on both sides that were debating? What are the ones that were certainly going to be firmly on one side or the other? And maybe what are the ones that were critical at the, at the borderline?
Gary Gallagher
The states that were in the forefront of the secession movement were the Deep South states, and South Carolina was kind of ground central for what was going on there. It just so happened that the Democrats had their national convention in Charleston in 1860, which is the worst place in the world they could’ve had it if they wanted a quiet, rational discussion of anything.
The states that were in the forefront of the secession movement were the Deep South states, and South Carolina was kind of ground central for what was going on there. It just so happened that the Democrats had their national convention in Charleston in 1860, which is the worst place in the world they could’ve had it if they wanted a quiet, rational discussion of anything.
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gary Gallagher
South Carolina is the first state to secede, and then is quickly followed. You can just go the tier across Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia, Texas. That’s the re- It’s seven states. The Deep South states go out in that initial… But there’s a long period then, and they gather in Montgomery, Alabama, to establish a new government with Montgomery as the capital of the Confederacy.
South Carolina is the first state to secede, and then is quickly followed. You can just go the tier across Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia, Texas. That’s the re- It’s seven states. The Deep South states go out in that initial… But there’s a long period then, and they gather in Montgomery, Alabama, to establish a new government with Montgomery as the capital of the Confederacy.
Gary Gallagher
Delegates from those states do. And they set up a provisional government that’s gonna last a year and call for the first national elections in 1861. There are only seven states there, and really only six for a lot of it ’cause Texas got there late. It was the last of the first seven to secede. But the states that haven’t seceded yet are the ones with the most people. Virginia, which is the most populous, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri. Eight states have not gone out. Eight slave-holding states have not gone out. The most important one is Virginia among those that-
Delegates from those states do. And they set up a provisional government that’s gonna last a year and call for the first national elections in 1861. There are only seven states there, and really only six for a lot of it ’cause Texas got there late. It was the last of the first seven to secede. But the states that haven’t seceded yet are the ones with the most people. Virginia, which is the most populous, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri. Eight states have not gone out. Eight slave-holding states have not gone out. The most important one is Virginia among those that-
Gary Gallagher
… that have not gone out. The question is, can they find some resolution to all of this, or is it gonna get more serious, and are those states gonna go? And it came to focus, once again, on Charleston, South Carolina, and a federal installation in Charleston Harbor, Fort Sumter. Much United States property and installations had been just given over to the Confederates.
… that have not gone out. The question is, can they find some resolution to all of this, or is it gonna get more serious, and are those states gonna go? And it came to focus, once again, on Charleston, South Carolina, and a federal installation in Charleston Harbor, Fort Sumter. Much United States property and installations had been just given over to the Confederates.
Gary Gallagher
And the question is, can we do it with this one as well? This is a very difficult decision to make, and it comes down to what’s gonna happen in Charleston Harbor. And in the end, I mean, Jefferson Davis believed that he couldn’t allow it to remain a federal installation ’cause it’s actually in the Confederacy from their point of view. And Lincoln, who’s not conceding the right of states to secede, they’re, they’re temporarily out of our power, but we have to maintain… He decided in the end to maintain power there, not to reinforce it, but to resupply it, needed supplies. And that’s what triggers it. Then, then the ball’s in Jefferson Davis’ court: “Okay, they’re gonna resupply it.
And the question is, can we do it with this one as well? This is a very difficult decision to make, and it comes down to what’s gonna happen in Charleston Harbor. And in the end, I mean, Jefferson Davis believed that he couldn’t allow it to remain a federal installation ’cause it’s actually in the Confederacy from their point of view. And Lincoln, who’s not conceding the right of states to secede, they’re, they’re temporarily out of our power, but we have to maintain… He decided in the end to maintain power there, not to reinforce it, but to resupply it, needed supplies. And that’s what triggers it. Then, then the ball’s in Jefferson Davis’ court: “Okay, they’re gonna resupply it.
Gary Gallagher
What do we do?” And they decided we need to insist that it surrender, and if it won’t surrender, we need to fire on it. And the Confederates fired the first shots. They would’ve said, “We were forced to fire the first shots by what Lincoln did.” N- nobody wanted to be the ones who fired the first shots. But in the end, it’s the Confederates who fired the first shots. And once that is fired, the key thing, the key thing is not the firing on Sumter in the end, but that sets up the key thing, which is Lincoln’s call for volunteers to suppress the rebellion, and he is gonna ask each state to supply people. And the Upper South states, most of them have said, “We’re not gonna secede, but you can’t… But the states that are gone had the right to secede-
What do we do?” And they decided we need to insist that it surrender, and if it won’t surrender, we need to fire on it. And the Confederates fired the first shots. They would’ve said, “We were forced to fire the first shots by what Lincoln did.” N- nobody wanted to be the ones who fired the first shots. But in the end, it’s the Confederates who fired the first shots. And once that is fired, the key thing, the key thing is not the firing on Sumter in the end, but that sets up the key thing, which is Lincoln’s call for volunteers to suppress the rebellion, and he is gonna ask each state to supply people. And the Upper South states, most of them have said, “We’re not gonna secede, but you can’t… But the states that are gone had the right to secede-
Gary Gallagher
… and you can’t do anything to make them come back.” Lincoln is seeming to make them do things to come back. And so four more states went out. Virginia went out. Arkansas went out. Tennessee went out. Then North Carolina went out. And now you have an 11-state Confederacy rather than seven. But more than that, you have Virginia. The city of Richmond has 40% of all the industrial capacity in the entire Confederacy, what became the Confederacy. Virginia is the most populous state, has the largest slave population, the largest white population. It supplies the most important military leaders. And the capital ends up in Richmond. They move from Montgomery to Richmond in acknowledgment of how important Richmond is, that this is the key state.
… and you can’t do anything to make them come back.” Lincoln is seeming to make them do things to come back. And so four more states went out. Virginia went out. Arkansas went out. Tennessee went out. Then North Carolina went out. And now you have an 11-state Confederacy rather than seven. But more than that, you have Virginia. The city of Richmond has 40% of all the industrial capacity in the entire Confederacy, what became the Confederacy. Virginia is the most populous state, has the largest slave population, the largest white population. It supplies the most important military leaders. And the capital ends up in Richmond. They move from Montgomery to Richmond in acknowledgment of how important Richmond is, that this is the key state.
Gary Gallagher
The key states that didn’t go out were Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri. Delaware didn’t either, but who cares? The other three didn’t go out, and that really mattered because they were more populous. But 11 are gone. Four remain in the Union.
The key states that didn’t go out were Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri. Delaware didn’t either, but who cares? The other three didn’t go out, and that really mattered because they were more populous. But 11 are gone. Four remain in the Union.
Lex Fridman
And to lay out some more context, going to Perplexity here, by total enslaved population on the eve of the Civil War, we have looking at the top five states, Virginia, as you said, with the most number of slaves, 490,000. Then Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, all with over 400,000 slaves.
And to lay out some more context, going to Perplexity here, by total enslaved population on the eve of the Civil War, we have looking at the top five states, Virginia, as you said, with the most number of slaves, 490,000. Then Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, all with over 400,000 slaves.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. And Mississippi and South Carolina have the highest proportion of enslaved people of any of the states. And this is an interesting little fact from the 1860 census. When you’re talking about white people in the United States, those are the two wealthiest states per capita in the United States, are South Carolina and Mississippi in 1860.
Yes. And Mississippi and South Carolina have the highest proportion of enslaved people of any of the states. And this is an interesting little fact from the 1860 census. When you’re talking about white people in the United States, those are the two wealthiest states per capita in the United States, are South Carolina and Mississippi in 1860.
Lex Fridman
Boy, the complicated history of this great nation of ours.
Boy, the complicated history of this great nation of ours.
Gary Gallagher
It’s hard to overstate the resources. The states that sent the most men into the Confederate Army are Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia. Three of those come in this second wave of secessions. Three of them, three of the four. Only Georgia among the original ones was in those top four states. And so you would have had a much, much smaller pool of manpower for that earlier version of the Confederacy. It’s inconceivable to me that you would have had the war we had with just that version.
It’s hard to overstate the resources. The states that sent the most men into the Confederate Army are Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Georgia. Three of those come in this second wave of secessions. Three of them, three of the four. Only Georgia among the original ones was in those top four states. And so you would have had a much, much smaller pool of manpower for that earlier version of the Confederacy. It’s inconceivable to me that you would have had the war we had with just that version.
Lex Fridman
So it does feel, just to linger on it, like there was a lot on the balance here. Like there was a lot of different decisions that could have been made, even on the political side, that could have turned the tides.
So it does feel, just to linger on it, like there was a lot on the balance here. Like there was a lot of different decisions that could have been made, even on the political side, that could have turned the tides.
Gary Gallagher
For example, there’s a secession convention in Virginia. It goes in… It votes twice against secession. Twice. It’s only after Sumter that they come back for another vote. I mean, it’s a Unionist vote in that convention in, in Virginia. And it’s only after Fort Sumter. And then it’s still so divided that a big chunk of Virginia decide that’s how you get West Virginia. West Virginia essentially secedes from Virginia- … in the course of the Civil War.
For example, there’s a secession convention in Virginia. It goes in… It votes twice against secession. Twice. It’s only after Sumter that they come back for another vote. I mean, it’s a Unionist vote in that convention in, in Virginia. And it’s only after Fort Sumter. And then it’s still so divided that a big chunk of Virginia decide that’s how you get West Virginia. West Virginia essentially secedes from Virginia- … in the course of the Civil War.
Lex Fridman
And given the industrial capacity of Virginia, that was a critical state. So it could have been… Virginia could have changed. We could have avoided the Civil War with Virginia alone.
And given the industrial capacity of Virginia, that was a critical state. So it could have been… Virginia could have changed. We could have avoided the Civil War with Virginia alone.
Gary Gallagher
It would have really changed. I mean, Virginia is the key. Virginia is the key because of the manpower, the industrial capacity, the food production, and Virginia gives you Lee, Jackson, Jeb Stuart. I mean, and the most soldiers of any state in the Confederacy. It’s just, it’s a real game changer to get Virginia. Plus, it also gives you these unbelievable ties to the revolutionary generation. Hey, it’s George’s home state. It is now in the Confederacy with his big statue on the Capitol grounds of George Washington. I mean, gives you, you get Washington, the ties to Jefferson, the ties to Madison. All of this comes in with Virginia.
It would have really changed. I mean, Virginia is the key. Virginia is the key because of the manpower, the industrial capacity, the food production, and Virginia gives you Lee, Jackson, Jeb Stuart. I mean, and the most soldiers of any state in the Confederacy. It’s just, it’s a real game changer to get Virginia. Plus, it also gives you these unbelievable ties to the revolutionary generation. Hey, it’s George’s home state. It is now in the Confederacy with his big statue on the Capitol grounds of George Washington. I mean, gives you, you get Washington, the ties to Jefferson, the ties to Madison. All of this comes in with Virginia.
Lex Fridman
So I think a lot of historians have said that the Civil War was inevitable. It… You’re really painting a picture here where it perhaps was not inevitable.
So I think a lot of historians have said that the Civil War was inevitable. It… You’re really painting a picture here where it perhaps was not inevitable.
Gary Gallagher
I don’t think it’s inevitable. Things happen in a sequence. I was at an academic conference once when they were trying to decide what important dates were, and they concluded that no dates are, dates are an artificial construction. No date is more important than any other.
I don’t think it’s inevitable. Things happen in a sequence. I was at an academic conference once when they were trying to decide what important dates were, and they concluded that no dates are, dates are an artificial construction. No date is more important than any other.
Gary Gallagher
That is so obviously preposterous. I mean, things happen in a sequence. They don’t just sort of happen. Lincoln’s elected, then South Carolina secedes, then other states secede, then… I mean, things happen as a consequence of what happened before, and you have these various things that have to happen before the next thing does. And then we end up with a war that seems to be inevitable, but it’s not… It’s just the way things played out. All of these factors are in motion, and you end up with the sequence that gets you to where people start shooting each other.
That is so obviously preposterous. I mean, things happen in a sequence. They don’t just sort of happen. Lincoln’s elected, then South Carolina secedes, then other states secede, then… I mean, things happen as a consequence of what happened before, and you have these various things that have to happen before the next thing does. And then we end up with a war that seems to be inevitable, but it’s not… It’s just the way things played out. All of these factors are in motion, and you end up with the sequence that gets you to where people start shooting each other.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. When you read history and look back, it seems inevitable. But if we were to place ourselves in that moment of time, do you think there’s decisions that could have been made?
Yeah. When you read history and look back, it seems inevitable. But if we were to place ourselves in that moment of time, do you think there’s decisions that could have been made?
Gary Gallagher
The decision to not let Fort Sumter, I mean, that’s a big decision to make. If they had just, if Lincoln had just said, “Go ahead and take Fort Sumter,” okay, then maybe… Then what would it have taken to trigger the departure of those upper South states? That would have changed that whole equation. But Lincoln decided you just can’t keep giving them everything that they want if you don’t concede that they have the right to do what they did.
The decision to not let Fort Sumter, I mean, that’s a big decision to make. If they had just, if Lincoln had just said, “Go ahead and take Fort Sumter,” okay, then maybe… Then what would it have taken to trigger the departure of those upper South states? That would have changed that whole equation. But Lincoln decided you just can’t keep giving them everything that they want if you don’t concede that they have the right to do what they did.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, there would be continued heated political debates, intense political debates about the expansion of slavery, but it would not cause rebellion to then escalate into a full-on hot war.
Yeah, there would be continued heated political debates, intense political debates about the expansion of slavery, but it would not cause rebellion to then escalate into a full-on hot war.
Gary Gallagher
I think that’s conceivable. I don’t think the war was inevitable. But I think the conditions were present for it to happen, obviously. I mean, that’s stating… ‘Cause it did happen. But I think it’s very tricky to just say that it was inevitable. That’s kind of starting at the end of the story and just saying, “Let’s look at the factors that got us here. We know it was gonna happen, and these are the things that pointed this direction.”
I think that’s conceivable. I don’t think the war was inevitable. But I think the conditions were present for it to happen, obviously. I mean, that’s stating… ‘Cause it did happen. But I think it’s very tricky to just say that it was inevitable. That’s kind of starting at the end of the story and just saying, “Let’s look at the factors that got us here. We know it was gonna happen, and these are the things that pointed this direction.”
The bloodiest war in US history
Lex Fridman
Can we just actually linger on this, on the nature of war? Over 700,000 people dead. How do we make sense of our capacity as, in that context, Americans? To kill sometimes literally our brothers…
Can we just actually linger on this, on the nature of war? Over 700,000 people dead. How do we make sense of our capacity as, in that context, Americans? To kill sometimes literally our brothers…
Gary Gallagher
Yes, sometimes literally our brothers.
Yes, sometimes literally our brothers.
Lex Fridman
How is that even possible?
How is that even possible?
Gary Gallagher
Well, one thing, it tells me things are pretty important to people on both sides if you’re gonna continue for a war that long. I mean, there was a period in the literature, in the scholarly literature in the 1980s and into the 1990s where they argued that the Confederacy wasn’t a nation, and the proof was that they didn’t try very hard, that they… If they’d really thought of themselves as a nation, they would have tried harder and fought longer. Well, they lost between four and a half and five and a half percent of their entire population, which is more than Great Britain, France, Germany, or Russia during World War I. They had a higher percentage loss than any of the powers in World War I. The US lost about 1.8% of its population from the war.
Well, one thing, it tells me things are pretty important to people on both sides if you’re gonna continue for a war that long. I mean, there was a period in the literature, in the scholarly literature in the 1980s and into the 1990s where they argued that the Confederacy wasn’t a nation, and the proof was that they didn’t try very hard, that they… If they’d really thought of themselves as a nation, they would have tried harder and fought longer. Well, they lost between four and a half and five and a half percent of their entire population, which is more than Great Britain, France, Germany, or Russia during World War I. They had a higher percentage loss than any of the powers in World War I. The US lost about 1.8% of its population from the war.
Gary Gallagher
US, in World War II, three-tenths of 1% of its popula-… That seems… They lost more than 30% of their entire white military-age males in the war. It’d be the equivalent of about 18 million Americans being killed now in a war. That seems to me that they’re pretty serious about something there.
US, in World War II, three-tenths of 1% of its popula-… That seems… They lost more than 30% of their entire white military-age males in the war. It’d be the equivalent of about 18 million Americans being killed now in a war. That seems to me that they’re pretty serious about something there.
Lex Fridman
It means that’s one of the largest percentages of loss. That’s… If that’s a measure of dedication-
It means that’s one of the largest percentages of loss. That’s… If that’s a measure of dedication-
Gary Gallagher
If that’s your measure of dedication, yes, and it seems to me that it should be one of the metrics that you bring to play that it’s… They just keep at it. They didn’t give up easily.
If that’s your measure of dedication, yes, and it seems to me that it should be one of the metrics that you bring to play that it’s… They just keep at it. They didn’t give up easily.
Lex Fridman
What can we say about the motivation? On the psychological side, did the members of the Confederacy hate the members of the Union?
What can we say about the motivation? On the psychological side, did the members of the Confederacy hate the members of the Union?
Gary Gallagher
Well, that escalated on both sides during the war. As more and more loss came, they did. There was more hatred directed toward the enemy more and more. This notion that it’s they’re all brothers and not really mad at each other and… That just doesn’t hold up. There are places where the soldiers fraternized with one another and traded tobacco for coffee and that kind of stuff, but no, the bitterness as the war went on, and there was greater loss on the home front, and as the war became more all-encompassing and really went after the entire… the civilian side of the Confederacy was not shielded from it, the bitterness increased and increased and increased.
Well, that escalated on both sides during the war. As more and more loss came, they did. There was more hatred directed toward the enemy more and more. This notion that it’s they’re all brothers and not really mad at each other and… That just doesn’t hold up. There are places where the soldiers fraternized with one another and traded tobacco for coffee and that kind of stuff, but no, the bitterness as the war went on, and there was greater loss on the home front, and as the war became more all-encompassing and really went after the entire… the civilian side of the Confederacy was not shielded from it, the bitterness increased and increased and increased.
Gary Gallagher
And there’s a lot of unhappiness with the war behind the lines in the Confederacy, absolutely, unhappiness with the government. There’s desertion. About 15% of Confederate soldiers deserted. About 12% of United States soldiers deserted. So there’s desertion on both sides. There’s war-weariness, but the war goes on because I think if you had been able to poll most white Southerners even late in the war and say, “Okay, here are your choices. You either have Jefferson Davis in the government and the war goes on, or you’re going back into the United States and the Lincoln government will be in charge and you won’t have slavery. Which one do you pick?” They’re gonna pick the first one, and that’s why the war went on as long as it did.
And there’s a lot of unhappiness with the war behind the lines in the Confederacy, absolutely, unhappiness with the government. There’s desertion. About 15% of Confederate soldiers deserted. About 12% of United States soldiers deserted. So there’s desertion on both sides. There’s war-weariness, but the war goes on because I think if you had been able to poll most white Southerners even late in the war and say, “Okay, here are your choices. You either have Jefferson Davis in the government and the war goes on, or you’re going back into the United States and the Lincoln government will be in charge and you won’t have slavery. Which one do you pick?” They’re gonna pick the first one, and that’s why the war went on as long as it did.
Lex Fridman
But at the same time, to fast-forward, and that maybe teaches you something about the nature of war, but after the war, maybe some of the decisions that Grant made, people were able to rediscover the brotherhood.
But at the same time, to fast-forward, and that maybe teaches you something about the nature of war, but after the war, maybe some of the decisions that Grant made, people were able to rediscover the brotherhood.
Gary Gallagher
You mean at Appomattox you’re talking about-
You mean at Appomattox you’re talking about-
Lex Fridman
Appomattox
Appomattox
Gary Gallagher
… the terms at Appomattox. Yes, the… And those were… And he didn’t just reach up in the air and say, “I’ve got some terms.” The… Lincoln very specifically… He met with Lincoln shortly before Appomattox. Sherman was there. One top naval officer was there, Grant and Lincoln, and Lincoln said, “This is what I want. This is the kind of peace I want.” “The whole point of this war is to put the nation back together, and a good start on that is…” I mean, if it’s just a rebellion, what do you do with traitors and rebels? You hang them.
… the terms at Appomattox. Yes, the… And those were… And he didn’t just reach up in the air and say, “I’ve got some terms.” The… Lincoln very specifically… He met with Lincoln shortly before Appomattox. Sherman was there. One top naval officer was there, Grant and Lincoln, and Lincoln said, “This is what I want. This is the kind of peace I want.” “The whole point of this war is to put the nation back together, and a good start on that is…” I mean, if it’s just a rebellion, what do you do with traitors and rebels? You hang them.
Gary Gallagher
You don’t bring them back. You don’t treat them as prisoners of war, which the United States did during this. You, he… But the goal is to put the nation back together, and Lincoln said, “This is a good start. Make them sign a parole. Make them accept the end of slavery and the fact that they’re back in the Union. If they do that, they get to go home and resume their lives.” Hadn’t been decided yet whether they’ll get to vote, but let them go home. Don’t imprison them. Don’t execute them. Don’t execute their leaders. That’s the decision.
You don’t bring them back. You don’t treat them as prisoners of war, which the United States did during this. You, he… But the goal is to put the nation back together, and Lincoln said, “This is a good start. Make them sign a parole. Make them accept the end of slavery and the fact that they’re back in the Union. If they do that, they get to go home and resume their lives.” Hadn’t been decided yet whether they’ll get to vote, but let them go home. Don’t imprison them. Don’t execute them. Don’t execute their leaders. That’s the decision.
Lex Fridman
From the perspective of the Union, what do you think about that kind of forgiveness?
From the perspective of the Union, what do you think about that kind of forgiveness?
Gary Gallagher
Well, I think that it was sort of a nod toward the direction of forgiveness, but I don’t think the real… I don’t think real forgiveness was there. It was still extremely hard feelings on both sides, and Lincoln’s assassination upped the ante on that, especially for a while in the United States. The forgiveness… Two things in terms of the aftermath of the war, two words that often come into play are reunion and reconciliation. Those are two other things that are often conflated. Reunion is literally putting the nation back together. That happened. Reconcile, true reconciliation, that’s much, much, much tougher, and that didn’t come anytime soon on the part of millions of people on both sides, I think.
Well, I think that it was sort of a nod toward the direction of forgiveness, but I don’t think the real… I don’t think real forgiveness was there. It was still extremely hard feelings on both sides, and Lincoln’s assassination upped the ante on that, especially for a while in the United States. The forgiveness… Two things in terms of the aftermath of the war, two words that often come into play are reunion and reconciliation. Those are two other things that are often conflated. Reunion is literally putting the nation back together. That happened. Reconcile, true reconciliation, that’s much, much, much tougher, and that didn’t come anytime soon on the part of millions of people on both sides, I think.
Lex Fridman
And we’ll probably maybe talk about in multiple ways how maybe that is something that’s still going on.
And we’ll probably maybe talk about in multiple ways how maybe that is something that’s still going on.
Gary Gallagher
Oh, there are echoes of the Civil War all over the place. It’s not still being fought, but you can see resonances of the Civil War because it’s such a profoundly disruptive event that gets right at the heart of what the republic means. I mean, and so it’s… There’s nothing else like it in US history, and it’s a great moment of truth, the residual aftermath and effects of which lingered for decades and are still present in some ways, I think.
Oh, there are echoes of the Civil War all over the place. It’s not still being fought, but you can see resonances of the Civil War because it’s such a profoundly disruptive event that gets right at the heart of what the republic means. I mean, and so it’s… There’s nothing else like it in US history, and it’s a great moment of truth, the residual aftermath and effects of which lingered for decades and are still present in some ways, I think.
Lex Fridman
So in 1859, most Americans were just living their life. Did they have a sense what was on the horizon?
So in 1859, most Americans were just living their life. Did they have a sense what was on the horizon?
Gary Gallagher
It’s what I like to call the Appomattox Syndrome, which starts at the end of the story and says, “Of course there was gonna be a war because the war was inevitable, and of course the United States was gonna win and slavery was gonna be destroyed,” because they were. So let’s find out how we got right here. But no, most people didn’t wake up in Iowa in 1857 and their first thought was, “Boy, I hate the South.” “Those slaveholders, they’re really…” No. People got on with their quotidian lives and they got to the farm or they went to their business and they did… They weren’t… Nobody knew that they were living in the antebellum era, and that those great antebellum years were about to come to an end.
It’s what I like to call the Appomattox Syndrome, which starts at the end of the story and says, “Of course there was gonna be a war because the war was inevitable, and of course the United States was gonna win and slavery was gonna be destroyed,” because they were. So let’s find out how we got right here. But no, most people didn’t wake up in Iowa in 1857 and their first thought was, “Boy, I hate the South.” “Those slaveholders, they’re really…” No. People got on with their quotidian lives and they got to the farm or they went to their business and they did… They weren’t… Nobody knew that they were living in the antebellum era, and that those great antebellum years were about to come to an end.
Gary Gallagher
They… That is something that it’s hard to get people… To just put it out of your mind that that’s all anybody is thinking about. They’re thinking, “There’s a lot of other stuff going on.”
They… That is something that it’s hard to get people… To just put it out of your mind that that’s all anybody is thinking about. They’re thinking, “There’s a lot of other stuff going on.”
Gary Gallagher
There’s a big gold rush in Colorado. More people go to Colorado than went to California for a while. There is… And you have these tremendous changes coming about, technological changes of the 1850s where you have the real expansion of railroads, the real expansion of the telegraph. There’s a shrinking of time and space that’s remarkable for people at the time. It seemed dizzying to them at the time. There are a lot of things to think about other than how much I hate Yankees if I’m in South Carolina, or I hate slaveholders if I live in New Hampshire. But periodically, there are these events that pop up that refocus on the differences between the sections. And you have the Kansas-Nebraska Act. You have Dred Scott.
There’s a big gold rush in Colorado. More people go to Colorado than went to California for a while. There is… And you have these tremendous changes coming about, technological changes of the 1850s where you have the real expansion of railroads, the real expansion of the telegraph. There’s a shrinking of time and space that’s remarkable for people at the time. It seemed dizzying to them at the time. There are a lot of things to think about other than how much I hate Yankees if I’m in South Carolina, or I hate slaveholders if I live in New Hampshire. But periodically, there are these events that pop up that refocus on the differences between the sections. And you have the Kansas-Nebraska Act. You have Dred Scott.
Gary Gallagher
You have the caning of Charles Sumner on the floor of the Senate. You have Uncle Tom’s Cabin earlier in the decade in 18– and what… And the impact that that had on attitudes towards slavery. Doesn’t create a bunch of abolitionists, but it creates a bunch of people who rethink their thoughts about slavery.
You have the caning of Charles Sumner on the floor of the Senate. You have Uncle Tom’s Cabin earlier in the decade in 18– and what… And the impact that that had on attitudes towards slavery. Doesn’t create a bunch of abolitionists, but it creates a bunch of people who rethink their thoughts about slavery.
Lex Fridman
Sorry to ask the big question about history. But, you know, we’re living today, 2026, and there’s the sense that every day you wake up, the possibilities before us are endless, for the good, for the bad, for the truly destructive. There’s an eerie sense that the possibility of a world war in different kinds of ways, whether it’s sparked in the Middle East or sparked in China and Taiwan, or sparked in Ukraine-Russia, or elsewhere totally surprising in the world, may be related to nuclear weapons or not. There’s a sense that everything is possible. And of course, when history is written about the 21st century, it will all be obvious.
Sorry to ask the big question about history. But, you know, we’re living today, 2026, and there’s the sense that every day you wake up, the possibilities before us are endless, for the good, for the bad, for the truly destructive. There’s an eerie sense that the possibility of a world war in different kinds of ways, whether it’s sparked in the Middle East or sparked in China and Taiwan, or sparked in Ukraine-Russia, or elsewhere totally surprising in the world, may be related to nuclear weapons or not. There’s a sense that everything is possible. And of course, when history is written about the 21st century, it will all be obvious.
Gary Gallagher
It’s always obvious in retrospect. That’s right.
It’s always obvious in retrospect. That’s right.
Lex Fridman
What can we learn about… from the Civil War about how history unfolds itself, I suppose, for the modern day?
What can we learn about… from the Civil War about how history unfolds itself, I suppose, for the modern day?
Gary Gallagher
Well, I think that the potential threats now are different from the potential threats in the mid-19th century. The nuclear dimension, some kind of really brutal use of pathogens. I mean, there are lots of things that could happen now that couldn’t happen then, at least not because humans were making them happen. But I mean, to me, one of the things to take away from the Civil War is really the resiliency of this republic, which I still think it’s a resilient republic. We’re living in a sort of wacky time.
Well, I think that the potential threats now are different from the potential threats in the mid-19th century. The nuclear dimension, some kind of really brutal use of pathogens. I mean, there are lots of things that could happen now that couldn’t happen then, at least not because humans were making them happen. But I mean, to me, one of the things to take away from the Civil War is really the resiliency of this republic, which I still think it’s a resilient republic. We’re living in a sort of wacky time.
Gary Gallagher
But I believe that the… I think that… I have a great faith in the resiliency of the nation, I really do, of the United States. I think it’s been through much tougher times than we’re in now, and I think that we will weather this, although everybody will have some scar tissue. There might even come a time when our leadership class actually leads, which would be interesting. And I’m saying, you know, I’m talking about both sides of the fence here. But it is… That, to me, this is the supreme test of a republic that had been put in place in the late 18th century. Can that late 18th century republic adjust, including adjusting to deal with the profoundly disruptive issue of slavery, in a way that allows it to go forward?
But I believe that the… I think that… I have a great faith in the resiliency of the nation, I really do, of the United States. I think it’s been through much tougher times than we’re in now, and I think that we will weather this, although everybody will have some scar tissue. There might even come a time when our leadership class actually leads, which would be interesting. And I’m saying, you know, I’m talking about both sides of the fence here. But it is… That, to me, this is the supreme test of a republic that had been put in place in the late 18th century. Can that late 18th century republic adjust, including adjusting to deal with the profoundly disruptive issue of slavery, in a way that allows it to go forward?
Gary Gallagher
And the answer is yes. In a war that brings slaughter on an unimaginable scale and brings social disruption in the former slave-holding states on an unimaginable… It just couldn’t be more profoundly disruptive if you’re a Confederate. There’s not slavery anymore, and we lost the war, and a third of our military-age white men are dead. Wow, that’s a bad four years for our team. What’s gonna happen here? The Republic emerged from that and worked it out, and I think it is… It goes back to me, the intelligence of the founding generation that put in place documents that actually allowed the Republic to deal with something like this.
And the answer is yes. In a war that brings slaughter on an unimaginable scale and brings social disruption in the former slave-holding states on an unimaginable… It just couldn’t be more profoundly disruptive if you’re a Confederate. There’s not slavery anymore, and we lost the war, and a third of our military-age white men are dead. Wow, that’s a bad four years for our team. What’s gonna happen here? The Republic emerged from that and worked it out, and I think it is… It goes back to me, the intelligence of the founding generation that put in place documents that actually allowed the Republic to deal with something like this.
Gary Gallagher
And it’s sort of a miracle to me that from a nation that was as prejudiced, racially prejudiced as the United States was, you get the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments out of this. It’s just kind of mind-boggling that that happens.
And it’s sort of a miracle to me that from a nation that was as prejudiced, racially prejudiced as the United States was, you get the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments out of this. It’s just kind of mind-boggling that that happens.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I think resilience and adaptive innovation often looks like chaos in the moment.
Yeah, I think resilience and adaptive innovation often looks like chaos in the moment.
Gary Gallagher
It absolutely does. It absolutely does. But then when you really get to the end of that story, you look, and there you are, and oh, it’s okay, the nation is still intact. And the 13th Amendment is in place. Wow, we didn’t think- … that was gonna happen in 1861- when secession started. I mean, it really… One, another lesson is that you cannot control what a great military event can set loose.
It absolutely does. It absolutely does. But then when you really get to the end of that story, you look, and there you are, and oh, it’s okay, the nation is still intact. And the 13th Amendment is in place. Wow, we didn’t think- … that was gonna happen in 1861- when secession started. I mean, it really… One, another lesson is that you cannot control what a great military event can set loose.
Gary Gallagher
I mean, no, things that nobody imagined would happen, including expansion of central power in ways that no one would have imagined. You don’t get to ratchet that back and say, “Well, that’ll never happen again.” No, you know what? It happened, and maybe it will happen again because we’ve seen it happen. Nobody imagined that. The federal budget in 1860 was $63 million. That was the entire federal budget. The federal budget in 1865 was $1.2 billion, and if you throw in the Confederate side of that, it gets you over $2 billion, which means federal expenditures in 1860 would’ve lasted about 11 days in 1865. Nobody foresaw that. Absolutely nobody foresaw that. And education legislation that would create the great land grant colleges and universities and it’s… The war, the war brought a lot
I mean, no, things that nobody imagined would happen, including expansion of central power in ways that no one would have imagined. You don’t get to ratchet that back and say, “Well, that’ll never happen again.” No, you know what? It happened, and maybe it will happen again because we’ve seen it happen. Nobody imagined that. The federal budget in 1860 was $63 million. That was the entire federal budget. The federal budget in 1865 was $1.2 billion, and if you throw in the Confederate side of that, it gets you over $2 billion, which means federal expenditures in 1860 would’ve lasted about 11 days in 1865. Nobody foresaw that. Absolutely nobody foresaw that. And education legislation that would create the great land grant colleges and universities and it’s… The war, the war brought a lot
Lex Fridman
And I think most of the things that has happened through the hard periods of our country’s history, nobody could have really foreseen, and then we somehow figure it out, and that gives me a lot of hope.
And I think most of the things that has happened through the hard periods of our country’s history, nobody could have really foreseen, and then we somehow figure it out, and that gives me a lot of hope.
Gary Gallagher
We-
We-
Lex Fridman
That this kinda like extreme division, the arguments, the people basically speaking in the harshest of ways against each other, that is like the engine of brainstorming and figuring problems out that in the long arc of history create progress. But in the short term, it feels like a dumpster fire.
That this kinda like extreme division, the arguments, the people basically speaking in the harshest of ways against each other, that is like the engine of brainstorming and figuring problems out that in the long arc of history create progress. But in the short term, it feels like a dumpster fire.
Gary Gallagher
It does. And to me, the arc of US history has been, and Lincoln talked about this too, it’s an expansion of freedoms and liberties. That’s the long arc, with very problematical places along the way. But again, the documents allow for that, and the process allows for that, and I think that’s one of the remarkable things about Philadelphia in the summer of 1787. I mean, those guys, a lot of whom own slaves, put together something that’s proved to be resilient and adaptable and changeable, and it has evolved in a way that is in the right direction, although there are always problems.
It does. And to me, the arc of US history has been, and Lincoln talked about this too, it’s an expansion of freedoms and liberties. That’s the long arc, with very problematical places along the way. But again, the documents allow for that, and the process allows for that, and I think that’s one of the remarkable things about Philadelphia in the summer of 1787. I mean, those guys, a lot of whom own slaves, put together something that’s proved to be resilient and adaptable and changeable, and it has evolved in a way that is in the right direction, although there are always problems.
Lex Fridman
I love this country. I will never stop saying how much I love this country. It’s an incredible experiment. I’m we’re this year celebrating 250th birthday. I can’t wait for the next 250 years. This is such a fascinating study of human civilization.
I love this country. I will never stop saying how much I love this country. It’s an incredible experiment. I’m we’re this year celebrating 250th birthday. I can’t wait for the next 250 years. This is such a fascinating study of human civilization.
Gary Gallagher
And it is complicated. What we want now is a sort of cartoon version of what we Americans, as you watch popular culture, we want a 30-second view of whatever. Well, who should I like? Who are the good guys? Who are the bad guys? I want a 30-second version of the Civil War. What do I… History is not that way.
And it is complicated. What we want now is a sort of cartoon version of what we Americans, as you watch popular culture, we want a 30-second view of whatever. Well, who should I like? Who are the good guys? Who are the bad guys? I want a 30-second version of the Civil War. What do I… History is not that way.
Gary Gallagher
I’ve spent my whole life studying history, and maybe the main thing I’ve learned is however complicated I thought something was when I really started to explore it, it’s more complicated than I thought it was. People aren’t simple. They’re complicated. And you have to at least appreciate, you don’t have to embrace the complexity. I guess you can’t make people do that, but you have to at least concede that things are… they’re just… There’s not a 20-second version of anything in the past. The past is complicated, ’cause humanoids are involved in it. They’re complicated.
I’ve spent my whole life studying history, and maybe the main thing I’ve learned is however complicated I thought something was when I really started to explore it, it’s more complicated than I thought it was. People aren’t simple. They’re complicated. And you have to at least appreciate, you don’t have to embrace the complexity. I guess you can’t make people do that, but you have to at least concede that things are… they’re just… There’s not a 20-second version of anything in the past. The past is complicated, ’cause humanoids are involved in it. They’re complicated.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, the… when you look at the system as a whole. But as individual humans, we like to do the, the black and white thing where-
Yeah, the… when you look at the system as a whole. But as individual humans, we like to do the, the black and white thing where-
Gary Gallagher
Of course.
Of course.
Lex Fridman
… we just see the good, everything as good and evil, and then we bicker.
… we just see the good, everything as good and evil, and then we bicker.
Gary Gallagher
‘Cause it’s easier.
‘Cause it’s easier.
Lex Fridman
And then we get together at Thanksgiving dinner, and we yell at each other, and then people lose their shit, and they stop talking to each other for a year, and then they make up and all this ’cause this is just how humans interact with each other. And but as a system, especially with the increasing levels of freedom, with the freedoms of speech and be able to speak out about your feelings, even when they’re intense feelings, that somehow works as a system.
And then we get together at Thanksgiving dinner, and we yell at each other, and then people lose their shit, and they stop talking to each other for a year, and then they make up and all this ’cause this is just how humans interact with each other. And but as a system, especially with the increasing levels of freedom, with the freedoms of speech and be able to speak out about your feelings, even when they’re intense feelings, that somehow works as a system.
Gary Gallagher
And it’s very messy.
And it’s very messy.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Gary Gallagher
The more freedom, the messier it is. Really, the messier it is.
The more freedom, the messier it is. Really, the messier it is.
Lex Fridman
And your job as a historian is a difficult job, and as you said, because the more you learn, the more you come to understand, the more complicated the picture appears.
And your job as a historian is a difficult job, and as you said, because the more you learn, the more you come to understand, the more complicated the picture appears.
Gary Gallagher
Yep, and the more you learn, the more you learn that you don’t know as much as you thought you did.
Yep, and the more you learn, the more you learn that you don’t know as much as you thought you did.
Lex Fridman
So some humility will take you a long way.
So some humility will take you a long way.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, you want more of Grant than McClellan in that, on that humility score. Grant would score high on humility. McClellan, every day, every day the first thought was, “What about me?” “Who is gonna not appreciate how wonderful I am today?” thought George B. McClellan. That’s the thought that nagged at him. “Somebody might not know how great I am.” That’s an aside.
Yes, you want more of Grant than McClellan in that, on that humility score. Grant would score high on humility. McClellan, every day, every day the first thought was, “What about me?” “Who is gonna not appreciate how wonderful I am today?” thought George B. McClellan. That’s the thought that nagged at him. “Somebody might not know how great I am.” That’s an aside.
Lex Fridman
Reminds me of somebody. But anyway. Quick ten-second shout-out to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to my conversation with Gary Gallagher.
Reminds me of somebody. But anyway. Quick ten-second shout-out to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to my conversation with Gary Gallagher.
How the Confederate Army could’ve won
Lex Fridman
Okay, let’s at the start, first shots fired at Fort Sumter, as you mentioned, and this thing starts brewing and escalating towards a full-on war. What are the different advantages of each side from a military perspective?
Okay, let’s at the start, first shots fired at Fort Sumter, as you mentioned, and this thing starts brewing and escalating towards a full-on war. What are the different advantages of each side from a military perspective?
Gary Gallagher
Here is one of the great misconceptions about the Civil War. Among the people who know anything about it, which in the US is a very small percentage, but if they know anything, they know United States’ victory was inevitable. Because the United States had 22 million people. The Confederacy had five and a half million white people- … and three and a half million enslaved people. The United States’ economy was infinitely more powerful than the Confederate economy. The United States had the United States Army. The United States had the United States Navy.
Here is one of the great misconceptions about the Civil War. Among the people who know anything about it, which in the US is a very small percentage, but if they know anything, they know United States’ victory was inevitable. Because the United States had 22 million people. The Confederacy had five and a half million white people- … and three and a half million enslaved people. The United States’ economy was infinitely more powerful than the Confederate economy. The United States had the United States Army. The United States had the United States Navy.
Gary Gallagher
Really, who’s gonna win this war? The US, it’s inevitable, next question. It’s not true at all. The US did have those advantages, but the Confederacy had compensating advantages. And one of those advantages was it had a much lower bar to cross for success. It didn’t have to invade the United States, didn’t have to capture Washington. It didn’t have to project its military power into New England. All it had to do was convince a majority of the civilian population of the loyal states that it wasn’t worth the cost to make these rebel states come back into the Union. These are two democratic republics at war, and in the end, the civilian sector decides. Somebody my age can… We have the perfect example, Vietnam. The United States was not defeated militarily in Vietnam, and it didn’t matter.
Really, who’s gonna win this war? The US, it’s inevitable, next question. It’s not true at all. The US did have those advantages, but the Confederacy had compensating advantages. And one of those advantages was it had a much lower bar to cross for success. It didn’t have to invade the United States, didn’t have to capture Washington. It didn’t have to project its military power into New England. All it had to do was convince a majority of the civilian population of the loyal states that it wasn’t worth the cost to make these rebel states come back into the Union. These are two democratic republics at war, and in the end, the civilian sector decides. Somebody my age can… We have the perfect example, Vietnam. The United States was not defeated militarily in Vietnam, and it didn’t matter.
Gary Gallagher
‘Cause when the people said, “We’re not gonna support this war anymore,” the war’s gonna come to an end. The smart people in the Confederacy understood this. They understood it at the time. Lee understood it. Jefferson Davis understood it. You had key people at the time saying, “There’s no way that a nation as large as ours and as populous as, a population as large as ours has ever been subjected in a war like this. A tie is as good as a win for the Confederacy.” And they came very close to that in the summer of 1864. The other thing is the sheer size of the Confederacy is a huge advantage to them. It’s huge, with a very poor transportation and communication infrastructure in many ways. And to move a large army deep into the Confederacy is a huge logistical problem.
‘Cause when the people said, “We’re not gonna support this war anymore,” the war’s gonna come to an end. The smart people in the Confederacy understood this. They understood it at the time. Lee understood it. Jefferson Davis understood it. You had key people at the time saying, “There’s no way that a nation as large as ours and as populous as, a population as large as ours has ever been subjected in a war like this. A tie is as good as a win for the Confederacy.” And they came very close to that in the summer of 1864. The other thing is the sheer size of the Confederacy is a huge advantage to them. It’s huge, with a very poor transportation and communication infrastructure in many ways. And to move a large army deep into the Confederacy is a huge logistical problem.
Gary Gallagher
The same thing had happened to the British both during the American Revolution and the War of 1812. They confront this… The Confederacy’s as big as all of Western Europe. That’s a problem. It’s also a problem that the Confederates are fighting, literally fighting to defend their homes. That’s always, almost always a stronger factor than trying to impose your will on somebody else. All of these factors help the Confederacy. The US did have an army. The army had 15,000 men in it in 1860, 15,000. The Navy had fewer than 50 vessels, most of them on overseas stations. There were exactly three vessels available to blockade the Confederacy at the beginning of the war. The Confederate coastline’s 3,600 miles long. Probably not gonna be able to shut down a lot there.
The same thing had happened to the British both during the American Revolution and the War of 1812. They confront this… The Confederacy’s as big as all of Western Europe. That’s a problem. It’s also a problem that the Confederates are fighting, literally fighting to defend their homes. That’s always, almost always a stronger factor than trying to impose your will on somebody else. All of these factors help the Confederacy. The US did have an army. The army had 15,000 men in it in 1860, 15,000. The Navy had fewer than 50 vessels, most of them on overseas stations. There were exactly three vessels available to blockade the Confederacy at the beginning of the war. The Confederate coastline’s 3,600 miles long. Probably not gonna be able to shut down a lot there.
Gary Gallagher
So the point is that there are factors that help both sides. To me, the conditions for victory are the most important factor that favors the Confederacy. We just have to make it painful enough to the United States that they’re gonna say, “Let them go. We never liked South Carolina anyway. Just let them go. We’re not… It’s not worth it. It’s killing too many of our boys. It’s costing too much money, and we don’t have to worry about slavery in the territories if they’re gone, ’cause they’ll be gone. And our territories will be free of slavery.”
So the point is that there are factors that help both sides. To me, the conditions for victory are the most important factor that favors the Confederacy. We just have to make it painful enough to the United States that they’re gonna say, “Let them go. We never liked South Carolina anyway. Just let them go. We’re not… It’s not worth it. It’s killing too many of our boys. It’s costing too much money, and we don’t have to worry about slavery in the territories if they’re gone, ’cause they’ll be gone. And our territories will be free of slavery.”
Lex Fridman
So again, the Union is the invading force.
So again, the Union is the invading force.
Gary Gallagher
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Geography comes into play, as you mentioned.
Geography comes into play, as you mentioned.
Gary Gallagher
Immediately, yes.
Immediately, yes.
Lex Fridman
Vast land. And so in some sense, it’s a miracle that the war lasted as long as it did, and then there was as much motivation-
Vast land. And so in some sense, it’s a miracle that the war lasted as long as it did, and then there was as much motivation-
Gary Gallagher
Yes, that they stuck to it…
Yes, that they stuck to it…
Lex Fridman
… because again, victory for the Confederacy was stop the war.
… because again, victory for the Confederacy was stop the war.
Gary Gallagher
Stop the war. Neither side has an advantage in terms of its leadership. The generals all come… You often used to read frequently Confederates had better generals than the… And, but this is the first war where West- where West Pointers are in charge. They were subalterns in Mexico. The West Point is the United States Military Academy where the professional officer corps gets its training. It was established under Jefferson. It’s the premier engineering school in the United States. And I mean, West Point-trained engineers are very, very prominent when they get out of the army and even when they’re in the army. But by the time of the Civil War, it is West Pointers who were lieutenants and captains in the war with Mexico are now gonna be the people in charge.
Stop the war. Neither side has an advantage in terms of its leadership. The generals all come… You often used to read frequently Confederates had better generals than the… And, but this is the first war where West- where West Pointers are in charge. They were subalterns in Mexico. The West Point is the United States Military Academy where the professional officer corps gets its training. It was established under Jefferson. It’s the premier engineering school in the United States. And I mean, West Point-trained engineers are very, very prominent when they get out of the army and even when they’re in the army. But by the time of the Civil War, it is West Pointers who were lieutenants and captains in the war with Mexico are now gonna be the people in charge.
Gary Gallagher
Almost every army commander, almost every corps commander, which is the next level, are West Point graduates. They took the same classes from the same professors, read the same textbooks, served under either Winfield Scott or Zachary Taylor in Mexico. They bring the same background and body of doctrine and training to the table. It would’ve been weird if one side or the other had an inherent advantage in leadership. The one place where the US ends up with an advantage is that over the course of the war, it found, in my view, four men who could command armies effectively: Grant, Sherman, Philip Henry Sheridan, and George H. Thomas. The Confederacy only ever found one, and that’s Lee. And they had more than one army, so that’s a problem.
Almost every army commander, almost every corps commander, which is the next level, are West Point graduates. They took the same classes from the same professors, read the same textbooks, served under either Winfield Scott or Zachary Taylor in Mexico. They bring the same background and body of doctrine and training to the table. It would’ve been weird if one side or the other had an inherent advantage in leadership. The one place where the US ends up with an advantage is that over the course of the war, it found, in my view, four men who could command armies effectively: Grant, Sherman, Philip Henry Sheridan, and George H. Thomas. The Confederacy only ever found one, and that’s Lee. And they had more than one army, so that’s a problem.
Gary Gallagher
If you have more than one army but only one really good army commander, that puts you at a disadvantage.
If you have more than one army but only one really good army commander, that puts you at a disadvantage.
Lex Fridman
In what ways were the two sides balanced militarily equal militarily? So the, the passion, like we mentioned, of the, of the fighting force, the soldiers, the dedication to the fighting.
In what ways were the two sides balanced militarily equal militarily? So the, the passion, like we mentioned, of the, of the fighting force, the soldiers, the dedication to the fighting.
Gary Gallagher
Both brought the same notions of how to fight a war to the table because the officer corps had been, on both sides, had been trained in, in the same way. Neither side has a real advantage in terms of technology. Both sides use the railroad. Both sides use the telegraph. The United States could have used repeating weapons but decided not to. The Confederacy didn’t have the industrial capacity to produce. So the war is fought by infantrymen, for the most part, carrying muzzle-loading single-shot muskets, rifle muskets. That’s the weapon that inflicts 85 to 90% of the casualties-
Both brought the same notions of how to fight a war to the table because the officer corps had been, on both sides, had been trained in, in the same way. Neither side has a real advantage in terms of technology. Both sides use the railroad. Both sides use the telegraph. The United States could have used repeating weapons but decided not to. The Confederacy didn’t have the industrial capacity to produce. So the war is fought by infantrymen, for the most part, carrying muzzle-loading single-shot muskets, rifle muskets. That’s the weapon that inflicts 85 to 90% of the casualties-
Gary Gallagher
… in the Civil War, and they both have exactly the same thing. And they have the same kinds of artillery pieces. The United States Navy’s much bigger, but it’s… And the Navy is important, but armies really decide the war, and the armies are… They’re organized exactly the same way. They get officers the same way. They’re very similar.
… in the Civil War, and they both have exactly the same thing. And they have the same kinds of artillery pieces. The United States Navy’s much bigger, but it’s… And the Navy is important, but armies really decide the war, and the armies are… They’re organized exactly the same way. They get officers the same way. They’re very similar.
Lex Fridman
So what was the actual fighting like? Like you mentioned, most of it was with muskets. What was the experience of it like?
So what was the actual fighting like? Like you mentioned, most of it was with muskets. What was the experience of it like?
Gary Gallagher
It’s linear formations, shoulder-to-shoulder kinds of formations that would allow you to maintain unit integrity on a battlefield, which is one reason casualties were high. They’d line up and fight each other. As the war went on, they resorted more and more. One of the developments was the field entrenchments became very common by 1864. And both armies, if they would stop for the night, they would entrench. They’d throw up field works-
It’s linear formations, shoulder-to-shoulder kinds of formations that would allow you to maintain unit integrity on a battlefield, which is one reason casualties were high. They’d line up and fight each other. As the war went on, they resorted more and more. One of the developments was the field entrenchments became very common by 1864. And both armies, if they would stop for the night, they would entrench. They’d throw up field works-
Gary Gallagher
… which gave the defenders a much greater power vis-a-vis the attacking force. They came to decide that it– you needed about a three-to-one advantage in numbers to have a successful attack once field entrenchments were in place. But it is… It’s a, it’s an infantryman’s war overwhelmingly, and the infantryman’s experience on both sides. The United States side was a little better supplied. Union soldiers ate a little better for the most part. They got regular issues of clothing a little more regularly than the Confederates did. Their uniforms all kinda looked the same. The Confederates would have had a more motley look. But the Confederates didn’t lose any battles because they didn’t have enough shoes, and they didn’t lose any battles ’cause they didn’t have enough powder.
… which gave the defenders a much greater power vis-a-vis the attacking force. They came to decide that it– you needed about a three-to-one advantage in numbers to have a successful attack once field entrenchments were in place. But it is… It’s a, it’s an infantryman’s war overwhelmingly, and the infantryman’s experience on both sides. The United States side was a little better supplied. Union soldiers ate a little better for the most part. They got regular issues of clothing a little more regularly than the Confederates did. Their uniforms all kinda looked the same. The Confederates would have had a more motley look. But the Confederates didn’t lose any battles because they didn’t have enough shoes, and they didn’t lose any battles ’cause they didn’t have enough powder.
Gary Gallagher
They never had a problem with that. So it’s a war where each side looks like the other side in terms of what the armies actually… If we had wandered through the armies and, or watched them in battle, they would have looked the same to us.
They never had a problem with that. So it’s a war where each side looks like the other side in terms of what the armies actually… If we had wandered through the armies and, or watched them in battle, they would have looked the same to us.
Lex Fridman
But it wasn’t just about bullets. There was also dysentery and disease.
But it wasn’t just about bullets. There was also dysentery and disease.
Gary Gallagher
Two out of every three soldiers who died, died of disease. It depends on what unit you’re in. If you’re in the Irish Brigade, God love them. You know, just point us towards something and let us indulge in self-immolation, for God’s sake. The Irish Brigade had the reverse. They had two men who died from battle wounds for every man who died from disease. But overall, it’s one man died from battle wounds and two died from disease. Overall casualties, killed, wounded, prisoners of war, about a million and a half- … casualties in the Civil War.
Two out of every three soldiers who died, died of disease. It depends on what unit you’re in. If you’re in the Irish Brigade, God love them. You know, just point us towards something and let us indulge in self-immolation, for God’s sake. The Irish Brigade had the reverse. They had two men who died from battle wounds for every man who died from disease. But overall, it’s one man died from battle wounds and two died from disease. Overall casualties, killed, wounded, prisoners of war, about a million and a half- … casualties in the Civil War.
Lex Fridman
You know, there’s this idea that a big part of the American spirit is the Scots-Irish spirit, the fighting spirit. You think there’s some truth to that?
You know, there’s this idea that a big part of the American spirit is the Scots-Irish spirit, the fighting spirit. You think there’s some truth to that?
Gary Gallagher
Well, the songs are Irish songs that both sides sing with different words, and I mean, there are a lot of Irish soldiers in the Union Army. But in the entire military-age white population of the loyal states in 1860, just about a third were born somewhere other than the United States. And they made up about a quarter of all the soldiers. So they’re actually underrepresented in the United States Army. Far lower percentage of foreign-born soldiers in the Confederate Army, but there they’re a little bit overrepresented. So there are lots of foreign-born soldiers in the army. The largest group are not Irish. They’re the second largest group. The largest group are Germans on the US side. The Irish are second, and then you’d go way down the line for yet others.
Well, the songs are Irish songs that both sides sing with different words, and I mean, there are a lot of Irish soldiers in the Union Army. But in the entire military-age white population of the loyal states in 1860, just about a third were born somewhere other than the United States. And they made up about a quarter of all the soldiers. So they’re actually underrepresented in the United States Army. Far lower percentage of foreign-born soldiers in the Confederate Army, but there they’re a little bit overrepresented. So there are lots of foreign-born soldiers in the army. The largest group are not Irish. They’re the second largest group. The largest group are Germans on the US side. The Irish are second, and then you’d go way down the line for yet others.
Lex Fridman
So we talked pretty thoroughly about slavery. Can we talk about immigration? What was the view at the time of immigrants?
So we talked pretty thoroughly about slavery. Can we talk about immigration? What was the view at the time of immigrants?
Gary Gallagher
Well, I think you know the answer to that. We need to have all that stuff done, but we don’t especially like the people doing it. That’s basically the… Well, I mean, the-
Well, I think you know the answer to that. We need to have all that stuff done, but we don’t especially like the people doing it. That’s basically the… Well, I mean, the-
Lex Fridman
Oh, America
Oh, America
Gary Gallagher
… the anti-Irish, and a lot of it is bound up with anti-Catholic sentiment. ‘Cause the Irish are changing the nature of the country. The country’s a Protestant, British country, and here come all these Irishmen. And especially in the ’40s and ’50s, the– My Gallaghers came in the late ’50s. They are changing the nature, and they take over. Look at them. They don’t know their place. They’re-
… the anti-Irish, and a lot of it is bound up with anti-Catholic sentiment. ‘Cause the Irish are changing the nature of the country. The country’s a Protestant, British country, and here come all these Irishmen. And especially in the ’40s and ’50s, the– My Gallaghers came in the late ’50s. They are changing the nature, and they take over. Look at them. They don’t know their place. They’re-
Lex Fridman
Right
Right
Gary Gallagher
… pretty soon they’re taking over cities, and they all cheat when they vote. We know that. You can buy an Irish vote for one drink.
… pretty soon they’re taking over cities, and they all cheat when they vote. We know that. You can buy an Irish vote for one drink.
Lex Fridman
This all sounds familiar, right?
This all sounds familiar, right?
Gary Gallagher
The cartoons were brutal on depicting African American characters, but they also depicted the Irish as sort of simian characters, often with a jug of whiskey in one hand. I mean, it’s very… There’s profound prejudice. And prejudice against the Germans, whom they called the Dutch. That was what the soldiers would call the German regiments, Dutch regiments. And yeah, there’s a lot of ethnic prejudice.
The cartoons were brutal on depicting African American characters, but they also depicted the Irish as sort of simian characters, often with a jug of whiskey in one hand. I mean, it’s very… There’s profound prejudice. And prejudice against the Germans, whom they called the Dutch. That was what the soldiers would call the German regiments, Dutch regiments. And yeah, there’s a lot of ethnic prejudice.
Lex Fridman
So to mention, you mentioned Protestants, so both sides were primarily Protestant Christians.
So to mention, you mentioned Protestants, so both sides were primarily Protestant Christians.
Gary Gallagher
Overwhelmingly.
Overwhelmingly.
Lex Fridman
At that time, it was a very religious country.
At that time, it was a very religious country.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman
So the religious sentiment was pretty strong.
So the religious sentiment was pretty strong.
Gary Gallagher
Units had chaplains, and there were Catholic priests with Catholic units. Yes, a very big presence.
Units had chaplains, and there were Catholic priests with Catholic units. Yes, a very big presence.
Lex Fridman
Was Christianity used to justify-
Was Christianity used to justify-
Gary Gallagher
Of course it was. Both sides used it, yes.
Of course it was. Both sides used it, yes.
Lex Fridman
So it’s-
So it’s-
Gary Gallagher
I don’t mean to jump on your question, but yes, they did.
I don’t mean to jump on your question, but yes, they did.
Lex Fridman
I mean, how was it used to justify fighting for a nation?
I mean, how was it used to justify fighting for a nation?
Gary Gallagher
Yeah, there’s a lot of fighting in the Bible, a lot of people killing other people in the Bi- As long as you’re doing it for the right reasons-
Yeah, there’s a lot of fighting in the Bible, a lot of people killing other people in the Bi- As long as you’re doing it for the right reasons-
Gary Gallagher
… you can… And you could use it different ways. I mean, you can deal with setbacks by saying, “Well, God tests us. We’re being tested.” What do you do when God tests you? You don’t give up when God tests you. You try harder when God tests you. The very top leaders… This is interesting. The top leaders on the Confederate side, the most famous ones, Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jeb Stuart, they were much more overtly religious than people like Grant, Sherman, Philip Sheridan. I mean, much, much more. Lee is an Episcopalian. Jackson was a Presbyterian. But they talked– I mean, their official reports, their correspondence, it’s filled with allusions to religion much more than Grant’s or Sherman’s.
… you can… And you could use it different ways. I mean, you can deal with setbacks by saying, “Well, God tests us. We’re being tested.” What do you do when God tests you? You don’t give up when God tests you. You try harder when God tests you. The very top leaders… This is interesting. The top leaders on the Confederate side, the most famous ones, Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jeb Stuart, they were much more overtly religious than people like Grant, Sherman, Philip Sheridan. I mean, much, much more. Lee is an Episcopalian. Jackson was a Presbyterian. But they talked– I mean, their official reports, their correspondence, it’s filled with allusions to religion much more than Grant’s or Sherman’s.
Lex Fridman
What about African Americans in the army?
What about African Americans in the army?
Gary Gallagher
African Americans made up… There were about 200,000 Black men served in what were called United States Colored Troops units, USCT.
African Americans made up… There were about 200,000 Black men served in what were called United States Colored Troops units, USCT.
Lex Fridman
It was on the Union side.
It was on the Union side.
Gary Gallagher
On the U- Yes. Okay, let’s just dispense with the hallucination that there were a lot of Black men in the Confederate Army. That is such total- Ridiculous nonsense- … utterly unsupported by any evidence that anyone would consider credible. This whole notion of… I mean, it’s just, it’s preposterous. It’s ridic- and I’m really managing my language right here. I’m not saying what I really think it is. So, so just… I’ve seen estimates of as high as 100,000 Black men in the Confederate Army.
On the U- Yes. Okay, let’s just dispense with the hallucination that there were a lot of Black men in the Confederate Army. That is such total- Ridiculous nonsense- … utterly unsupported by any evidence that anyone would consider credible. This whole notion of… I mean, it’s just, it’s preposterous. It’s ridic- and I’m really managing my language right here. I’m not saying what I really think it is. So, so just… I’ve seen estimates of as high as 100,000 Black men in the Confederate Army.
Lex Fridman
Not true.
Not true.
Gary Gallagher
Really, really, no. No. Were there Black men with the Confederate armies? Yes. There are enslaved Black men who are doing all kinds of non-military things in the army to free more white men to shoulder muskets and shoot at Yankees. That’s what’s going on in the Confederate Army. There are a lot of Black men around Union armies before they became soldiers as well. But there are these… 200,000 Black men join the military service during the war. They’re in the Navy and in the Army. They’d always been in the Navy. The US Navy… And they’re not segregated in the Navy in the way that they can be in the Army. They’re just in Bl- you have integrated crews-
Really, really, no. No. Were there Black men with the Confederate armies? Yes. There are enslaved Black men who are doing all kinds of non-military things in the army to free more white men to shoulder muskets and shoot at Yankees. That’s what’s going on in the Confederate Army. There are a lot of Black men around Union armies before they became soldiers as well. But there are these… 200,000 Black men join the military service during the war. They’re in the Navy and in the Army. They’d always been in the Navy. The US Navy… And they’re not segregated in the Navy in the way that they can be in the Army. They’re just in Bl- you have integrated crews-
Gary Gallagher
… on naval vessels, although they’re separated in some ways, but there’ve always been Black sailors in the Navy. The Army, no. That was a big, it’s a big thing to put Black men in uniform. And for a Confederate, it’s bad enough if you announce emancipation, but then you start arming Black men. That, to Confederates, is urging a widespread slave rebellion, basically.
… on naval vessels, although they’re separated in some ways, but there’ve always been Black sailors in the Navy. The Army, no. That was a big, it’s a big thing to put Black men in uniform. And for a Confederate, it’s bad enough if you announce emancipation, but then you start arming Black men. That, to Confederates, is urging a widespread slave rebellion, basically.
Lex Fridman
Black regiments on the Union side was enraging the Confederate side.
Black regiments on the Union side was enraging the Confederate side.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. And they have white officers overwhelmingly. There are a few Black officers, but overwhelmingly the USCT units have white officers leading them.
Yes. And they have white officers overwhelmingly. There are a few Black officers, but overwhelmingly the USCT units have white officers leading them.
Lex Fridman
But symbolically, that is a really powerful thing, right?
But symbolically, that is a really powerful thing, right?
Gary Gallagher
Oh, it’s hard for modern Americans to understand just how jarring that would be to a Confederate, that not only would you have enslaved people no longer enslaved, but you would have the men in uniforms carrying muskets.
Oh, it’s hard for modern Americans to understand just how jarring that would be to a Confederate, that not only would you have enslaved people no longer enslaved, but you would have the men in uniforms carrying muskets.
Lex Fridman
So you as a historian, you’ve looked at every layer of this, including diaries and- … what was motivating? What was going through the minds of African Americans who were fighting for the Union side?
So you as a historian, you’ve looked at every layer of this, including diaries and- … what was motivating? What was going through the minds of African Americans who were fighting for the Union side?
Gary Gallagher
I think what you would expect is going… I mean, they would talk about Union occasionally, but what that means to them, it’s a union without slavery. They have the most… Of all the people who can have a direct impact on what’s going on versus slavery, there’s nothing more direct than picking up a musket and firing at the people who are defending a slavery-based society. It doesn’t get… And at the same time, you are not only doing that, you are also establishing an unimpeachable claim to citizenship. The whole point of a citizen soldier is that you do your bit for the nation that’s helping you, and the nation does these things for you. Well, okay, if I’m picking up and risking my life with a musket in my hand, are you gonna tell me I can’t vote after I do?
I think what you would expect is going… I mean, they would talk about Union occasionally, but what that means to them, it’s a union without slavery. They have the most… Of all the people who can have a direct impact on what’s going on versus slavery, there’s nothing more direct than picking up a musket and firing at the people who are defending a slavery-based society. It doesn’t get… And at the same time, you are not only doing that, you are also establishing an unimpeachable claim to citizenship. The whole point of a citizen soldier is that you do your bit for the nation that’s helping you, and the nation does these things for you. Well, okay, if I’m picking up and risking my life with a musket in my hand, are you gonna tell me I can’t vote after I do?
Gary Gallagher
I thought that’s the whole point of this, when I’m protecting the right to vote by doing my citizen’s role as a soldier. And that was a big debate in Congress. That really changed the equation of that debate as well. How are you gonna treat people after they’ve served in United States units? Can you tell them they can’t vote? You’re not gonna give the vote to them?
I thought that’s the whole point of this, when I’m protecting the right to vote by doing my citizen’s role as a soldier. And that was a big debate in Congress. That really changed the equation of that debate as well. How are you gonna treat people after they’ve served in United States units? Can you tell them they can’t vote? You’re not gonna give the vote to them?
Lex Fridman
How many people in the Black regiments, but also, you know, folks like Frederick Douglass, saw that Black Americans and white Americans should have equal rights?
How many people in the Black regiments, but also, you know, folks like Frederick Douglass, saw that Black Americans and white Americans should have equal rights?
Gary Gallagher
Well, Douglass saw that, of course. But even within their context, their notion of equal rights is that that doesn’t mean that Black women are gonna vote, just like for white people, it didn’t mean white women would vote. But in terms of the context of the time, yes, equal rights should come out of this. Abolishing slavery is the first step of this. It’s not the end game. The end game is equal rights for everybody.
Well, Douglass saw that, of course. But even within their context, their notion of equal rights is that that doesn’t mean that Black women are gonna vote, just like for white people, it didn’t mean white women would vote. But in terms of the context of the time, yes, equal rights should come out of this. Abolishing slavery is the first step of this. It’s not the end game. The end game is equal rights for everybody.
Lex Fridman
Did many people see that?
Did many people see that?
Gary Gallagher
No. A tiny percentage of people saw that. There’s a notion that’s very common that somehow the white North turned its back on Black people after the war, and it should’ve tried harder during Reconstruction to force the white South to convey full equal rights to Black people. The assumption there is simply flawed. Most white people in the North didn’t believe that… They believed first save the Union, and yes, we’ll need to kill slavery as well. Those are the two things on the list. Check, check, we’ve done those. Full equal rights for Black people is not on their list. That it…
No. A tiny percentage of people saw that. There’s a notion that’s very common that somehow the white North turned its back on Black people after the war, and it should’ve tried harder during Reconstruction to force the white South to convey full equal rights to Black people. The assumption there is simply flawed. Most white people in the North didn’t believe that… They believed first save the Union, and yes, we’ll need to kill slavery as well. Those are the two things on the list. Check, check, we’ve done those. Full equal rights for Black people is not on their list. That it…
Gary Gallagher
And they were not willing to do the things that it would’ve taken to do that, including the white soldiers in uniforms who wanted out of the army after the Confederates surrendered and said, “Well, now we need the army to make the white South do the right thing vis-à-vis Black people.” They would’ve said, “What are you talking about?” “I signed on to do this. We did it. Send us home right now.”
And they were not willing to do the things that it would’ve taken to do that, including the white soldiers in uniforms who wanted out of the army after the Confederates surrendered and said, “Well, now we need the army to make the white South do the right thing vis-à-vis Black people.” They would’ve said, “What are you talking about?” “I signed on to do this. We did it. Send us home right now.”
Lex Fridman
I think that’s one of the lessons you learn from human history across the different places where slavery was abolished, is abolishing slavery is not the end of a journey. It’s the beginning of a journey.
I think that’s one of the lessons you learn from human history across the different places where slavery was abolished, is abolishing slavery is not the end of a journey. It’s the beginning of a journey.
Gary Gallagher
It’s the beginning.
It’s the beginning.
Lex Fridman
And it sometimes takes, quite often takes at least 100 years to go from that to something you would identify as equal rights. And then maybe even beyond that, there’s a complicated story about even outside of rights, just how society sees the different people.
And it sometimes takes, quite often takes at least 100 years to go from that to something you would identify as equal rights. And then maybe even beyond that, there’s a complicated story about even outside of rights, just how society sees the different people.
Gary Gallagher
There’s a difference between passing… I mean, the Great Society passed most of the… I mean, you got the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act. You got all of this legislation that does a lot of the legal stuff, but it’s what’s in people’s heads- … that takes longer and is a, is a more frustrating process.
There’s a difference between passing… I mean, the Great Society passed most of the… I mean, you got the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act. You got all of this legislation that does a lot of the legal stuff, but it’s what’s in people’s heads- … that takes longer and is a, is a more frustrating process.
Lex Fridman
Remains, as has appeared in human history, potential fuel for the division to rise up again.
Remains, as has appeared in human history, potential fuel for the division to rise up again.
Gary Gallagher
Of course. And then people can exploit that. It’s, it’s waiting to be exploited, and people exploit it.
Of course. And then people can exploit that. It’s, it’s waiting to be exploited, and people exploit it.
Lex Fridman
This is something we do as humans. We like to otherize certain groups.
This is something we do as humans. We like to otherize certain groups.
Gary Gallagher
Good to have an enemy.
Good to have an enemy.
Lex Fridman
And the Civil War for our country is a story of this. It’s… So understanding the Civil War is in part extremely important for understanding the, the division, maybe the dormant division that’s there.
And the Civil War for our country is a story of this. It’s… So understanding the Civil War is in part extremely important for understanding the, the division, maybe the dormant division that’s there.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. And there, and even before the war, there were- There were notions about the other side that sort– for, for a lot of people in the free states looking South, they said white Southerners are because of they’re lazy, they’re violent, they, they don’t wanna talk out a problem. They’ll do what Preston Brooks did to Charles Sumner. They’ll beat him over the head with a cane, and they’re used to this because they have slavery, and they’re used to brutalizing Black people. That’s just how they approach things. And the white South would look North and say they don’t care anything about family. They’re all just lusting after money. All they care about is material things. They don’t have any sense of kinship or family. They’re… That’s what Yankees are.
Yes. And there, and even before the war, there were- There were notions about the other side that sort– for, for a lot of people in the free states looking South, they said white Southerners are because of they’re lazy, they’re violent, they, they don’t wanna talk out a problem. They’ll do what Preston Brooks did to Charles Sumner. They’ll beat him over the head with a cane, and they’re used to this because they have slavery, and they’re used to brutalizing Black people. That’s just how they approach things. And the white South would look North and say they don’t care anything about family. They’re all just lusting after money. All they care about is material things. They don’t have any sense of kinship or family. They’re… That’s what Yankees are.
Gary Gallagher
It doesn’t even matter whether any of that is true, of course. There was a sense perceptions are more important than reality with human beings, and the perceptions on the eve of the Civil War were that the other side was different in a lot of ways. They also had profoundly commonalities. They had a common language, a common religion, a common history, these founding documents. All of that would pull things, pull people together. But they found ways to see differences and divided some of the churches. I mean, Protestant churches divided over slavery.
It doesn’t even matter whether any of that is true, of course. There was a sense perceptions are more important than reality with human beings, and the perceptions on the eve of the Civil War were that the other side was different in a lot of ways. They also had profoundly commonalities. They had a common language, a common religion, a common history, these founding documents. All of that would pull things, pull people together. But they found ways to see differences and divided some of the churches. I mean, Protestant churches divided over slavery.
Lex Fridman
And many of these themes continue to today.
And many of these themes continue to today.
Key battles of the Civil War
Lex Fridman
Let’s talk about the different theaters of the war, the Eastern Theater and the Western Theater. You mentioned the navies, the geography. How does geography come into play? What are the different parts here?
Let’s talk about the different theaters of the war, the Eastern Theater and the Western Theater. You mentioned the navies, the geography. How does geography come into play? What are the different parts here?
Gary Gallagher
There’s three main theaters of the war. The Eastern Theater is the theater that features Washington and Richmond. Plays out in Virginia, a little bit of Maryland, and a little bit of Pennsylvania. That’s– it’s where the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac fight for the most part. That’s the Eastern Theater.
There’s three main theaters of the war. The Eastern Theater is the theater that features Washington and Richmond. Plays out in Virginia, a little bit of Maryland, and a little bit of Pennsylvania. That’s– it’s where the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac fight for the most part. That’s the Eastern Theater.
Lex Fridman
And that’s the theater that maybe is most glorified and mythologized.
And that’s the theater that maybe is most glorified and mythologized.
Gary Gallagher
It’s by far the most famous of the theaters.
It’s by far the most famous of the theaters.
Lex Fridman
Famous.
Famous.
Gary Gallagher
There are famous battles in the other theaters, but that’s the one, and it’s mainly because of the presence of Lee and then of Grant. The Western Theater is a much larger one. It goes from the Appalachian Mountains to the Mississippi River, east to west, and would go from the Gulf to the Ohio River, so it’s huge and involves Tennessee. And, and then beyond the Mississippi River is the descriptively named Trans-Mississippi River, part of Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, and so forth. In terms of commitment of resources and effect on the outcome of the war, it’s by far the least important. Some people get very upset when I said that, say that, that the Trans– you know, it’s basically who cares about what’s going on out there.
There are famous battles in the other theaters, but that’s the one, and it’s mainly because of the presence of Lee and then of Grant. The Western Theater is a much larger one. It goes from the Appalachian Mountains to the Mississippi River, east to west, and would go from the Gulf to the Ohio River, so it’s huge and involves Tennessee. And, and then beyond the Mississippi River is the descriptively named Trans-Mississippi River, part of Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, and so forth. In terms of commitment of resources and effect on the outcome of the war, it’s by far the least important. Some people get very upset when I said that, say that, that the Trans– you know, it’s basically who cares about what’s going on out there.
Gary Gallagher
But that’s the third theater, the Trans-Mississippi, the Western Theater, and the Eastern Theater.
But that’s the third theater, the Trans-Mississippi, the Western Theater, and the Eastern Theater.
Lex Fridman
But I think you’ve argued that the Western Theater is really important for the war.
But I think you’ve argued that the Western Theater is really important for the war.
Gary Gallagher
Very important, and it, it’s where we get Grant. The soldiers who won the war for the United States all come out of the Western Theater. Grant, he brings Sherman, Philip Sheridan, George Thomas. Those are all in the Western Theater.
Very important, and it, it’s where we get Grant. The soldiers who won the war for the United States all come out of the Western Theater. Grant, he brings Sherman, Philip Sheridan, George Thomas. Those are all in the Western Theater.
Lex Fridman
So at the very beginning, the first real battle at the First Manassas in July 1861, I think one interesting aspect of that, as you’ve talked about, is that people gathered for a picnic.
So at the very beginning, the first real battle at the First Manassas in July 1861, I think one interesting aspect of that, as you’ve talked about, is that people gathered for a picnic.
Gary Gallagher
They came out to watch from Washington. They brought the carriages out, set up on a little ridge that let them look down over the battle.
They came out to watch from Washington. They brought the carriages out, set up on a little ridge that let them look down over the battle.
Lex Fridman
So that kind of gives you a sense that people of the time, first of all, didn’t think this would– this is going to scale to the size that it did or last as long as it did, but also not understand the seriousness of the situation.
So that kind of gives you a sense that people of the time, first of all, didn’t think this would– this is going to scale to the size that it did or last as long as it did, but also not understand the seriousness of the situation.
Gary Gallagher
They’re clueless about what’s actually going on. To even think that you should go observe a battle like that is ridiculous, but they did. And there was a strong belief, and Lincoln was part of this at the beginning, that there’s probably gonna be one battle. It’s not gonna last. He asked for 90-day volunteers to suppress the rebellion right after Fort Sumter. William Tecumseh Sherman reacted to that by saying that you might as well try to put out a fire with a squirt gun. I mean, it’s ridiculous. They’re not thinking about what this war could easily be. Take years, take hundreds of thousands of men maybe, not one battle.
They’re clueless about what’s actually going on. To even think that you should go observe a battle like that is ridiculous, but they did. And there was a strong belief, and Lincoln was part of this at the beginning, that there’s probably gonna be one battle. It’s not gonna last. He asked for 90-day volunteers to suppress the rebellion right after Fort Sumter. William Tecumseh Sherman reacted to that by saying that you might as well try to put out a fire with a squirt gun. I mean, it’s ridiculous. They’re not thinking about what this war could easily be. Take years, take hundreds of thousands of men maybe, not one battle.
Lex Fridman
When did it, the dark cloud, the reality of the war come in?
When did it, the dark cloud, the reality of the war come in?
Gary Gallagher
Well, First Bull Run and Star or Manassas, each side, many battles have two names, one that the United States soldiers used and one… And usually the Confederates would pick the nearest town, and the United States often picked terrain features, so you get Bull Run, which is a creek or stream. That’s what the Union soldiers called it. Manassas is what the Confederates called it. Antietam, a creek in Maryland, is what the Union… Sharpsburg is what Confederates called it. Anyway, there are several of those. That brought a little sense of reality to people in the United States especially. They’d expected it to be over, and it didn’t go the way they thought it would go, and so it’s gonna take more men.
Well, First Bull Run and Star or Manassas, each side, many battles have two names, one that the United States soldiers used and one… And usually the Confederates would pick the nearest town, and the United States often picked terrain features, so you get Bull Run, which is a creek or stream. That’s what the Union soldiers called it. Manassas is what the Confederates called it. Antietam, a creek in Maryland, is what the Union… Sharpsburg is what Confederates called it. Anyway, there are several of those. That brought a little sense of reality to people in the United States especially. They’d expected it to be over, and it didn’t go the way they thought it would go, and so it’s gonna take more men.
Gary Gallagher
The summer of ’61 was spent, hundreds of thousands of men went into uniform in the summer of ’61. The whole supply situation became more evidently imperative, but not much happened for the rest of the war. There’s a pretty big battle called the Battle of Wilson’s Creek that takes place in Missouri, but the rest of 1861 doesn’t have… The real fighting begins in the spring of ’62, and what really brought home in a way that no one had imagined what could be in store was one battle in the East and one battle in the West. The one in the West is Shiloh, which happened in early April. US Grant on the United States side and General Albert Sidney Johnston on the Confederate side.
The summer of ’61 was spent, hundreds of thousands of men went into uniform in the summer of ’61. The whole supply situation became more evidently imperative, but not much happened for the rest of the war. There’s a pretty big battle called the Battle of Wilson’s Creek that takes place in Missouri, but the rest of 1861 doesn’t have… The real fighting begins in the spring of ’62, and what really brought home in a way that no one had imagined what could be in store was one battle in the East and one battle in the West. The one in the West is Shiloh, which happened in early April. US Grant on the United States side and General Albert Sidney Johnston on the Confederate side.
Gary Gallagher
But at Shiloh in two days, there were upwards of 25,000 casualties, and that’s more battle casualties than US forces had suffered in every war combined down to that point happened in two days. Two and a half months after that, George B. McClellan’s army engaged with Lee’s army in what came to be called the Seven Days Battles at Richmond, 36,000 casualties. So those two together just showed that this was gonna be on a totally different scale, and it was gonna involve sacrifices and allocation of resources that no one had imagined before.
But at Shiloh in two days, there were upwards of 25,000 casualties, and that’s more battle casualties than US forces had suffered in every war combined down to that point happened in two days. Two and a half months after that, George B. McClellan’s army engaged with Lee’s army in what came to be called the Seven Days Battles at Richmond, 36,000 casualties. So those two together just showed that this was gonna be on a totally different scale, and it was gonna involve sacrifices and allocation of resources that no one had imagined before.
Lex Fridman
Since you mentioned Missouri, you’ve talked about how that was the most brutal guerrilla warfare of the conflict. And maybe can you speak to what do you mean by guerrilla warfare? What kind of war was that? And then contrast with the structure, the dynamics of battles elsewhere in the war.
Since you mentioned Missouri, you’ve talked about how that was the most brutal guerrilla warfare of the conflict. And maybe can you speak to what do you mean by guerrilla warfare? What kind of war was that? And then contrast with the structure, the dynamics of battles elsewhere in the war.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. Guerrilla war is more of what I think most Americans can sort of imagine what guerrilla war is. It involves small, much, much smaller numbers of actors, obviously, on both sides. Guerrilla bands might have a few dozen members. They might have a few hundred at different times. There are no real battles between guerrillas. There is a lot of bushwhacking, which is what they called it, ambushing people, terrorizing civilians, killing livestock, killing some civilians, killing prisoners after you’ve captured them, hanging some people. There are a few semi-large scale ones.
Yes. Guerrilla war is more of what I think most Americans can sort of imagine what guerrilla war is. It involves small, much, much smaller numbers of actors, obviously, on both sides. Guerrilla bands might have a few dozen members. They might have a few hundred at different times. There are no real battles between guerrillas. There is a lot of bushwhacking, which is what they called it, ambushing people, terrorizing civilians, killing livestock, killing some civilians, killing prisoners after you’ve captured them, hanging some people. There are a few semi-large scale ones.
Gary Gallagher
There’s a Confederate guerrilla named Quantrill led a raid against Lawrence, Kansas, where they burned parts of the town, executed more than 150 men in the town, and terrorized the place. That is going on in the… There’s a relationship in many places between elevation and guerrilla activity. The more mountainous or hilly, the more likely there’ll be guerrillas operating. They operate in the mountains, East Tennessee, western North Carolina, southwestern Virginia, central… There’s even some activity in parts of Texas, but Missouri and Kentucky have the worst guerrilla warfare. It’s present through the whole war, probably involves maybe 50,000 men out of the 3 million who were in action during the war, and was very nasty, no rules.
There’s a Confederate guerrilla named Quantrill led a raid against Lawrence, Kansas, where they burned parts of the town, executed more than 150 men in the town, and terrorized the place. That is going on in the… There’s a relationship in many places between elevation and guerrilla activity. The more mountainous or hilly, the more likely there’ll be guerrillas operating. They operate in the mountains, East Tennessee, western North Carolina, southwestern Virginia, central… There’s even some activity in parts of Texas, but Missouri and Kentucky have the worst guerrilla warfare. It’s present through the whole war, probably involves maybe 50,000 men out of the 3 million who were in action during the war, and was very nasty, no rules.
Gary Gallagher
One reason that rules of war were codified was because Henry Halleck, who was a Union general in Missouri, was dealing with this guerrilla activity and he said, “We need to get some rules about who’s a civilian, who’s not a civilian. How do you deal with this kind of situation and that kind of situation?”
One reason that rules of war were codified was because Henry Halleck, who was a Union general in Missouri, was dealing with this guerrilla activity and he said, “We need to get some rules about who’s a civilian, who’s not a civilian. How do you deal with this kind of situation and that kind of situation?”
Lex Fridman
What should we take away from the fact that most of the fighting had the rules of war behind it? So it was more structured, it was–
What should we take away from the fact that most of the fighting had the rules of war behind it? So it was more structured, it was–
Gary Gallagher
I think what we take away from that supports my argument that this is a war between two mid-19th century nation states that have a sense of how you fight a war. You fight a war with national armies who are led by professional soldiers and who understand that there are limits to what you do in a war, and all the war, the war’s limits expand as it goes on, but it doesn’t reach the point where you have indiscriminate killing of civilians and so forth. You just don’t… I mean, there’s an argument about whether it’s a total war or not. It all depends on how you define total war.
I think what we take away from that supports my argument that this is a war between two mid-19th century nation states that have a sense of how you fight a war. You fight a war with national armies who are led by professional soldiers and who understand that there are limits to what you do in a war, and all the war, the war’s limits expand as it goes on, but it doesn’t reach the point where you have indiscriminate killing of civilians and so forth. You just don’t… I mean, there’s an argument about whether it’s a total war or not. It all depends on how you define total war.
Lex Fridman
As you’ve mentioned, in terms of how encompassing it was, as total a war as it gets because the entirety of the society was involved in it.
As you’ve mentioned, in terms of how encompassing it was, as total a war as it gets because the entirety of the society was involved in it.
Gary Gallagher
When there’s wide-scale targeting of the economic infrastructure of your opponent that can be used to support the war effort, which is what you get increasingly as the war goes on and officially when Grant is in charge as general-in-chief, then certainly that’s a total… If you’re the farmer who experiences an army coming by and they take or kill all your livestock and destroy your crops, that’s pretty much like a total war, even if they don’t kill you.
When there’s wide-scale targeting of the economic infrastructure of your opponent that can be used to support the war effort, which is what you get increasingly as the war goes on and officially when Grant is in charge as general-in-chief, then certainly that’s a total… If you’re the farmer who experiences an army coming by and they take or kill all your livestock and destroy your crops, that’s pretty much like a total war, even if they don’t kill you.
Lex Fridman
So the war escalates.
So the war escalates.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, the war does escalate. ’62, it takes a quantum leap. In the spring and early summer of 1862, the signals are clear this is something that we had not counted on before. And the armies are gonna be much bigger. The Army of the Potomac’s more than 100,000 men. There’s never been an army like that in US history, nothing like that.
Yes, the war does escalate. ’62, it takes a quantum leap. In the spring and early summer of 1862, the signals are clear this is something that we had not counted on before. And the armies are gonna be much bigger. The Army of the Potomac’s more than 100,000 men. There’s never been an army like that in US history, nothing like that.
Lex Fridman
What do we understand from the diaries of soldiers coming for the first time face to face with this scale of war? We’re talking about a year. They’ve been volunteering for a year, like you mentioned, you know, in the summer, in the spring and the summer of ’62.
What do we understand from the diaries of soldiers coming for the first time face to face with this scale of war? We’re talking about a year. They’ve been volunteering for a year, like you mentioned, you know, in the summer, in the spring and the summer of ’62.
Gary Gallagher
There’s so many themes in soldier letters, and it’s an incredible gift to people such as myself who study this, is that almost, that a very large majority of the men on both sides were literate. And so we have this mass of testimony. And they sent millions of letters from the armies home and back to the armies on both sides. So we have this trove of first-hand evidence and diaries too, many, many diaries. But so you can see in real time how attitudes are changing, hardening. You can see the hardening process in soldiers who, they don’t have any idea what being a soldier is, then they do, and they don’t like lots of things about it. They don’t…
There’s so many themes in soldier letters, and it’s an incredible gift to people such as myself who study this, is that almost, that a very large majority of the men on both sides were literate. And so we have this mass of testimony. And they sent millions of letters from the armies home and back to the armies on both sides. So we have this trove of first-hand evidence and diaries too, many, many diaries. But so you can see in real time how attitudes are changing, hardening. You can see the hardening process in soldiers who, they don’t have any idea what being a soldier is, then they do, and they don’t like lots of things about it. They don’t…
Gary Gallagher
They talk a lot about food, talk a lot about clothing, talk a lot about officers they don’t like. They don’t talk… what one thing, it’s really fascinating, the thing they don’t try to do is explain to people behind the lines exactly what it’s like to be in a battle because they understand the people back home won’t understand what they’re talking about. And so they’ll say things like, “It was awful,” and, “Words just can’t convey what it was,” and then maybe tell more about their individual experience. But there’s a real sense that what a veteran knows about being in the military and what the people back home will understand are two different things, and you just can’t explain it to them.
They talk a lot about food, talk a lot about clothing, talk a lot about officers they don’t like. They don’t talk… what one thing, it’s really fascinating, the thing they don’t try to do is explain to people behind the lines exactly what it’s like to be in a battle because they understand the people back home won’t understand what they’re talking about. And so they’ll say things like, “It was awful,” and, “Words just can’t convey what it was,” and then maybe tell more about their individual experience. But there’s a real sense that what a veteran knows about being in the military and what the people back home will understand are two different things, and you just can’t explain it to them.
Lex Fridman
And so that takes us into the fall of the Battle of Antietam. Can you walk me through what happened at the battle and why it mattered?
And so that takes us into the fall of the Battle of Antietam. Can you walk me through what happened at the battle and why it mattered?
Gary Gallagher
George B. McClellan, whom I’ve already referred to dismissively a couple of times… He was-
George B. McClellan, whom I’ve already referred to dismissively a couple of times… He was-
Gary Gallagher
… he was in charge of the Army of the Potomac by this point. He’d been general in chief for a brief time and commanding the Army of the Potomac. And he finally approached Richmond. He got within, literally within five miles of Richmond. He was opposing an officer named Joseph E. Johnston, who just, his first thought every day was, “What a great day to retreat. Where could I go? I could go that way, or I could go that way.” He and McClellan were a match made in heaven. McClellan didn’t wanna go anywhere, and Johnston only wanted to retreat. Anyway, they finally ended up at Richmond. Johnston got wounded, got hit by a shell fragment outside Richmond in the Battle of Seven Pines, and he’s replaced by Robert E. Lee.
… he was in charge of the Army of the Potomac by this point. He’d been general in chief for a brief time and commanding the Army of the Potomac. And he finally approached Richmond. He got within, literally within five miles of Richmond. He was opposing an officer named Joseph E. Johnston, who just, his first thought every day was, “What a great day to retreat. Where could I go? I could go that way, or I could go that way.” He and McClellan were a match made in heaven. McClellan didn’t wanna go anywhere, and Johnston only wanted to retreat. Anyway, they finally ended up at Richmond. Johnston got wounded, got hit by a shell fragment outside Richmond in the Battle of Seven Pines, and he’s replaced by Robert E. Lee.
Gary Gallagher
And McClellan, in his usual perceptive way, observed that this was great because he knew that Lee was too timid to ever be an effective presence on the battlefield. So he read him just exactly the way-
And McClellan, in his usual perceptive way, observed that this was great because he knew that Lee was too timid to ever be an effective presence on the battlefield. So he read him just exactly the way-
Gary Gallagher
… that McClellan would. He ends up fighting Lee, and in the Seven Days’ Battles, McClellan is pushed away from Richmond. He shouldn’t have been, but he was. That was considered a great victory. Lee’s reputation goes up after that. Then Lee follows that up with the campaign of Second Bull Run, which reorients the war from Richmond to Manassas, the old First Manassas battlefield in northern Virginia. Stonewall Jackson plays a key role in it. He wins the Battle of Second Bull Run in late August 1862, and then invades the loyal states for the first time. He crosses into Maryland in early September with an army that is broken down in terms of supply. He has tremendous straggling problems and desertion problems, Lee did, in … He moved across the army with about 50,000 men.
… that McClellan would. He ends up fighting Lee, and in the Seven Days’ Battles, McClellan is pushed away from Richmond. He shouldn’t have been, but he was. That was considered a great victory. Lee’s reputation goes up after that. Then Lee follows that up with the campaign of Second Bull Run, which reorients the war from Richmond to Manassas, the old First Manassas battlefield in northern Virginia. Stonewall Jackson plays a key role in it. He wins the Battle of Second Bull Run in late August 1862, and then invades the loyal states for the first time. He crosses into Maryland in early September with an army that is broken down in terms of supply. He has tremendous straggling problems and desertion problems, Lee did, in … He moved across the army with about 50,000 men.
Gary Gallagher
When they finally came to battle at Antietam, which is in western Maryland, he only had about 35,000 soldiers on the field. McClellan had about 80,000 on the other side. And McClellan had captured a copy of Lee’s entire orders for the whole campaign, Special Orders Number 191. They had gone through an old Confederate camp- … and found a copy of Lee’s orders.
When they finally came to battle at Antietam, which is in western Maryland, he only had about 35,000 soldiers on the field. McClellan had about 80,000 on the other side. And McClellan had captured a copy of Lee’s entire orders for the whole campaign, Special Orders Number 191. They had gone through an old Confederate camp- … and found a copy of Lee’s orders.
Gary Gallagher
And still McClellan didn’t move quickly. I won’t bash McClellan. They fight. The bloodiest single day in US history is Antietam, the battle of 23,000 casualties in one day there. Very close thing. Lee hangs on by just the narrowest margin, sits on the battlefield for another whole day, which he shouldn’t have done. He was being way too bold there, and then retreated, got back across the Potomac River. Confederates looked at this whole thing as a drama in three acts: save Richmond, reorient the war to northern Virginia, cross into the United States—and they saw it as a success. Richmond’s no longer threatened.
And still McClellan didn’t move quickly. I won’t bash McClellan. They fight. The bloodiest single day in US history is Antietam, the battle of 23,000 casualties in one day there. Very close thing. Lee hangs on by just the narrowest margin, sits on the battlefield for another whole day, which he shouldn’t have done. He was being way too bold there, and then retreated, got back across the Potomac River. Confederates looked at this whole thing as a drama in three acts: save Richmond, reorient the war to northern Virginia, cross into the United States—and they saw it as a success. Richmond’s no longer threatened.
Gary Gallagher
Lee’s reputation has gone way up. McClellan has frustrated Lincoln immeasurably, and as a result, Lincoln removes McClellan from command. He waits till the day after the elections in November ’cause McClellan’s popular among Democrats, and Lincoln is an adept politician. He fires him the day after the elections and replaces him with a guy named Ambrose Burnside.
Lee’s reputation has gone way up. McClellan has frustrated Lincoln immeasurably, and as a result, Lincoln removes McClellan from command. He waits till the day after the elections in November ’cause McClellan’s popular among Democrats, and Lincoln is an adept politician. He fires him the day after the elections and replaces him with a guy named Ambrose Burnside.
Lex Fridman
So what can you say about what makes a great general and what makes a poor general in all of this?
So what can you say about what makes a great general and what makes a poor general in all of this?
Gary Gallagher
Well, McClellan is a very smart guy, and he was on Winfield Scott’s staff in Mexico, as was Lee, which is a sign that you’re a pretty bright officer. He built the Army of the Potomac. He did a brilliant job building the Army of the Potomac. The troops loved him. There was never a bond with any other commander the way they had with McClellan. But what he couldn’t do when the moment came, when the moment came, he couldn’t risk things. He was risk-averse. He had a chance to capture Richmond against Lee. He should have, and he didn’t. He withdrew. He had a chance … You almost never had a chance to destroy another army in the Civil War. He had a chance to destroy Lee’s army at Antietam, and he didn’t. He pulled back. He didn’t even use 20,000 of his men.
Well, McClellan is a very smart guy, and he was on Winfield Scott’s staff in Mexico, as was Lee, which is a sign that you’re a pretty bright officer. He built the Army of the Potomac. He did a brilliant job building the Army of the Potomac. The troops loved him. There was never a bond with any other commander the way they had with McClellan. But what he couldn’t do when the moment came, when the moment came, he couldn’t risk things. He was risk-averse. He had a chance to capture Richmond against Lee. He should have, and he didn’t. He withdrew. He had a chance … You almost never had a chance to destroy another army in the Civil War. He had a chance to destroy Lee’s army at Antietam, and he didn’t. He pulled back. He didn’t even use 20,000 of his men.
Gary Gallagher
They never fired their muskets at Antietam. If you’re in Lee’s army, you’re gonna fire your musket. If you’re in McClellan’s army, maybe, maybe not. He didn’t at Antietam. He let Lee get away. It frustrated Lincoln immensely, and Lincoln finally fired him because of that. It was a flaw. He lacked what they would’ve called in the mid-19th century the moral courage to risk everything. Grant had it. Lee had it. McClellan didn’t have it.
They never fired their muskets at Antietam. If you’re in Lee’s army, you’re gonna fire your musket. If you’re in McClellan’s army, maybe, maybe not. He didn’t at Antietam. He let Lee get away. It frustrated Lincoln immensely, and Lincoln finally fired him because of that. It was a flaw. He lacked what they would’ve called in the mid-19th century the moral courage to risk everything. Grant had it. Lee had it. McClellan didn’t have it.
Lex Fridman
One of the components of a great general is to, the willingness to risk it all, obviously with, with good advice, with intelligence, but-
One of the components of a great general is to, the willingness to risk it all, obviously with, with good advice, with intelligence, but-
Gary Gallagher
Which he had-
Which he had-
Lex Fridman
… risk failure.
… risk failure.
Gary Gallagher
The whole war changed in this arc between the Seven Days and Antietam, and it changed in this way. McClellan’s defeat at the Seven Days, this is in late June and early July ’62, convinced both Congress and Lincoln that slavery was gonna have to be put on the table. The war’s gonna be moral and con- McClellan could’ve won the war with slavery intact.
The whole war changed in this arc between the Seven Days and Antietam, and it changed in this way. McClellan’s defeat at the Seven Days, this is in late June and early July ’62, convinced both Congress and Lincoln that slavery was gonna have to be put on the table. The war’s gonna be moral and con- McClellan could’ve won the war with slavery intact.
Gary Gallagher
He didn’t, so Congress passed the Second Confiscation Act in late July, which I mentioned earlier, which strikes at slavery. And then Lincoln decided, he told his cabinet toward the end of July that he was gonna issue a proclamation of emancipation, and he was persuaded that he couldn’t just do it then in the wake of a defeat. He should wait until he had a victory. He got another defeat at Second Bull Run. He finally got a victory at Antietam because Lee retreated, and then that’s when he announced the preliminary proclamation. The key battle here isn’t Antietam. The key battle is the Seven Days and McClellan’s defeat that persuades Lincoln to do this. Antietam gives him the occasion to do it, and he issued his preliminary proclamation five days after the battle on September 22nd, 1862.
He didn’t, so Congress passed the Second Confiscation Act in late July, which I mentioned earlier, which strikes at slavery. And then Lincoln decided, he told his cabinet toward the end of July that he was gonna issue a proclamation of emancipation, and he was persuaded that he couldn’t just do it then in the wake of a defeat. He should wait until he had a victory. He got another defeat at Second Bull Run. He finally got a victory at Antietam because Lee retreated, and then that’s when he announced the preliminary proclamation. The key battle here isn’t Antietam. The key battle is the Seven Days and McClellan’s defeat that persuades Lincoln to do this. Antietam gives him the occasion to do it, and he issued his preliminary proclamation five days after the battle on September 22nd, 1862.
Lex Fridman
Can you elaborate why it became obvious that slavery has to be on the table as, as the motivation, as the driving motivation-
Can you elaborate why it became obvious that slavery has to be on the table as, as the motivation, as the driving motivation-
Gary Gallagher
Yes-
Yes-
Lex Fridman
… for the war at that time?
… for the war at that time?
Gary Gallagher
Because people believed the … And they were right. The war was almost over at the end of May 1862. It had been a catastrophe for the Confederacy in the Western Theater. They had lost New Orleans. New Orleans was surrender- the biggest city in the Confederacy by far, 160,000 people, four times bigger than the next biggest con- the most important port. The key to the Mississippi River Valley as an economic artery. If you don’t control New Orleans, the Mississippi isn’t an economic river for you. New Orleans was gone in April. Nashville was gone, the key city and capital of Tennessee. Memphis was gone in June. The whole state of Tennessee, except the mountainous East Tennessee, was basically not a Confederate state anymore by May 1862.
Because people believed the … And they were right. The war was almost over at the end of May 1862. It had been a catastrophe for the Confederacy in the Western Theater. They had lost New Orleans. New Orleans was surrender- the biggest city in the Confederacy by far, 160,000 people, four times bigger than the next biggest con- the most important port. The key to the Mississippi River Valley as an economic artery. If you don’t control New Orleans, the Mississippi isn’t an economic river for you. New Orleans was gone in April. Nashville was gone, the key city and capital of Tennessee. Memphis was gone in June. The whole state of Tennessee, except the mountainous East Tennessee, was basically not a Confederate state anymore by May 1862.
Gary Gallagher
There was a Union army of 100,000 in northern Mississippi by the end of May. Catastrophic. And George B. McClellan’s army was within five miles of the national capital in Richmond. I don’t think the Confederacy could have absorbed the loss of Richmond at that point. I think it would’ve been over, and emancipation was not on the table yet in an official way. The fact that Richmond didn’t fall convinced people in the North that the war was gonna have to last a lot longer. The Confederates were gonna be harder to beat, convinced Europe of the same thing. By Europe, I mean France and England. That’s what mattered. And so they decided that they were gonna have to take more extreme measures, and then the key, more extreme measure is strike at slavery. Strike at it as a war measure directly.
There was a Union army of 100,000 in northern Mississippi by the end of May. Catastrophic. And George B. McClellan’s army was within five miles of the national capital in Richmond. I don’t think the Confederacy could have absorbed the loss of Richmond at that point. I think it would’ve been over, and emancipation was not on the table yet in an official way. The fact that Richmond didn’t fall convinced people in the North that the war was gonna have to last a lot longer. The Confederates were gonna be harder to beat, convinced Europe of the same thing. By Europe, I mean France and England. That’s what mattered. And so they decided that they were gonna have to take more extreme measures, and then the key, more extreme measure is strike at slavery. Strike at it as a war measure directly.
Lex Fridman
And as a war measure, it what? Attacks at the economic infrastructure of the Confederacy.
And as a war measure, it what? Attacks at the economic infrastructure of the Confederacy.
Gary Gallagher
It attacks the economic infrastructure that enables the Confederacy to maintain the largest possible army in the war.
It attacks the economic infrastructure that enables the Confederacy to maintain the largest possible army in the war.
Lex Fridman
So this is not about the ethics, the morality of slavery. It’s the-
So this is not about the ethics, the morality of slavery. It’s the-
Gary Gallagher
It is for the abolitionists who see it, and Frederick Douglass realized that this is good. The abolitionists realized early on, even in 1861, some of them, Charles Sumner, for example, saw the Union defeat at First Bull Run. “Yes, it’s bad that we lost, but the longer the war goes, the more likely that we can get slavery on the table, get emancipation on the table.” Frederick Douglass believed the same thing. A longer war made that more likely, and McClellan handed them that gift by not being as aggressive as he should’ve been at Richmond in 1862.
It is for the abolitionists who see it, and Frederick Douglass realized that this is good. The abolitionists realized early on, even in 1861, some of them, Charles Sumner, for example, saw the Union defeat at First Bull Run. “Yes, it’s bad that we lost, but the longer the war goes, the more likely that we can get slavery on the table, get emancipation on the table.” Frederick Douglass believed the same thing. A longer war made that more likely, and McClellan handed them that gift by not being as aggressive as he should’ve been at Richmond in 1862.
Lex Fridman
But we should say, and correct me if I’m wrong, that only a tiny minority of Americans were abolitionists at that time.
But we should say, and correct me if I’m wrong, that only a tiny minority of Americans were abolitionists at that time.
Gary Gallagher
We’ll never know exactly. I would say if you… I think if you guessed 3% were r- I mean, really abolitionists, destroy it now, destroy it completely, no compensation for rebel owners or any owners, kill it in Kentucky, kill it in Missouri, kill it in Maryland. Yes, I think 3% would be about the ballpark.
We’ll never know exactly. I would say if you… I think if you guessed 3% were r- I mean, really abolitionists, destroy it now, destroy it completely, no compensation for rebel owners or any owners, kill it in Kentucky, kill it in Missouri, kill it in Maryland. Yes, I think 3% would be about the ballpark.
Lex Fridman
So of course, now we venerate those folks, and we mythologize them, and so they become bigger in our minds. But it sh- we should remember that they’re a tiny percentage.
So of course, now we venerate those folks, and we mythologize them, and so they become bigger in our minds. But it sh- we should remember that they’re a tiny percentage.
Gary Gallagher
They’re a tiny percentage, and there are other factors that are pushing forward the process that leads to the 13th Amendment. It’s not just people who hate slavery so much that they’ll do anything to kill it. The… in fact, most of them aren’t. That’s not what they are. We wish they were, but they’re not. And Lincoln is in a tough position. Lincoln hates slavery personally, but he’s president trying to win a war, and he can’t win the war with just Republicans. He has to try to keep Democrats on board, so he has to… I mean, and the Constitution protects slavery. In Kentucky and Missouri and Maryland and Delaware. They’re still in the nation. The Constitution still applies. Congress, by the time, by the end of June, had already gotten rid of slavery in the only two places where it could.
They’re a tiny percentage, and there are other factors that are pushing forward the process that leads to the 13th Amendment. It’s not just people who hate slavery so much that they’ll do anything to kill it. The… in fact, most of them aren’t. That’s not what they are. We wish they were, but they’re not. And Lincoln is in a tough position. Lincoln hates slavery personally, but he’s president trying to win a war, and he can’t win the war with just Republicans. He has to try to keep Democrats on board, so he has to… I mean, and the Constitution protects slavery. In Kentucky and Missouri and Maryland and Delaware. They’re still in the nation. The Constitution still applies. Congress, by the time, by the end of June, had already gotten rid of slavery in the only two places where it could.
Gary Gallagher
And that is in the federal territories and the District of Columbia. No compensation in the territories, but there were hardly any enslaved people there, and there was some compensation in the District of Columbia.
And that is in the federal territories and the District of Columbia. No compensation in the territories, but there were hardly any enslaved people there, and there was some compensation in the District of Columbia.
Lex Fridman
You said that Lincoln hates slavery. Can we just take that tangent and from a perspective of some, there’s a, there’s a hypocrisy there in pushing for a policy of colonization.
You said that Lincoln hates slavery. Can we just take that tangent and from a perspective of some, there’s a, there’s a hypocrisy there in pushing for a policy of colonization.
Gary Gallagher
Colonization. Yes, colonization. In the summer of 1862, Lincoln met with a group of Black leaders and tried to convince them to support colonization, which colonization meant if you freed enslaved people, then they would go somewhere else. They’d go out of the United States. It’s why Liberia exists. And Lincoln, that is probably the least attractive element of his total thinking on… He genuinely didn’t believe that white people would ever accept Black people as equals. He told the leaders that when he met with them, and he said, “You wouldn’t want it that way. I wouldn’t either. It’s the way it is. It’s a reality.”
Colonization. Yes, colonization. In the summer of 1862, Lincoln met with a group of Black leaders and tried to convince them to support colonization, which colonization meant if you freed enslaved people, then they would go somewhere else. They’d go out of the United States. It’s why Liberia exists. And Lincoln, that is probably the least attractive element of his total thinking on… He genuinely didn’t believe that white people would ever accept Black people as equals. He told the leaders that when he met with them, and he said, “You wouldn’t want it that way. I wouldn’t either. It’s the way it is. It’s a reality.”
Lex Fridman
Do, do we know he believed that, or is this a pragmatic politician understanding the lay of the land?
Do, do we know he believed that, or is this a pragmatic politician understanding the lay of the land?
Gary Gallagher
I think for someone who was born in Kentucky and reared in Southern Indiana and Southern Illinois, he was never around anything but a level of intensity on race that he probably didn’t ever see, wasn’t ever around white people who he could see accepting Black people as fully equal. That’s- … I do believe that.
I think for someone who was born in Kentucky and reared in Southern Indiana and Southern Illinois, he was never around anything but a level of intensity on race that he probably didn’t ever see, wasn’t ever around white people who he could see accepting Black people as fully equal. That’s- … I do believe that.
Lex Fridman
And still, it is a country that where the words “All men are created equal” is on the page.
And still, it is a country that where the words “All men are created equal” is on the page.
Gary Gallagher
They’re right there on the page, waiting for that to be made good on. Yes, that’s correct. Well, it’s true. And Lincoln cha- I mean, Lincoln also was capable of growth.
They’re right there on the page, waiting for that to be made good on. Yes, that’s correct. Well, it’s true. And Lincoln cha- I mean, Lincoln also was capable of growth.
Lex Fridman
Well, he seemed to have evolved quite a lot in the years of the war.
Well, he seemed to have evolved quite a lot in the years of the war.
Gary Gallagher
He did. No, he did. He did.
He did. No, he did. He did.
Lex Fridman
And it’s very, very possible were he not assassinated, he would’ve arrived at a very different worldview.
And it’s very, very possible were he not assassinated, he would’ve arrived at a very different worldview.
Gary Gallagher
We’ll never know, but we do know that he was a lot smarter and a lot more adaptable and a lot more politically adept than Andrew Johnson, and so it certainly would’ve looked different. Well, it’s true.
We’ll never know, but we do know that he was a lot smarter and a lot more adaptable and a lot more politically adept than Andrew Johnson, and so it certainly would’ve looked different. Well, it’s true.
Lex Fridman
No, I just-
No, I just-
Best and Worst Presidents
Gary Gallagher
Yes, it is true.
Yes, it is true.
Lex Fridman
… I think I vaguely remember you saying somewhere that Andrew Johnson is the second worst president in America’s history.
… I think I vaguely remember you saying somewhere that Andrew Johnson is the second worst president in America’s history.
Gary Gallagher
Yeah, he’s right. He has… the glory of being above James Buchanan. I said that a few years ago, yes.
Yeah, he’s right. He has… the glory of being above James Buchanan. I said that a few years ago, yes.
Lex Fridman
I think you said something about Buchanan is… There’s like a basement, there’s like a basement below basement. I think-
I think you said something about Buchanan is… There’s like a basement, there’s like a basement below basement. I think-
Gary Gallagher
Sub-basement. He’s in the sub-basement.
Sub-basement. He’s in the sub-basement.
Lex Fridman
… He’s in the sub-basement. And this, this I put that in the category of the slime- … poetic commentary.
… He’s in the sub-basement. And this, this I put that in the category of the slime- … poetic commentary.
Gary Gallagher
He’s in a little corner of the sub-basement all by himself with one candle.
He’s in a little corner of the sub-basement all by himself with one candle.
Lex Fridman
So can we take that tiny tangent of why they were terrible pr- tangent on a tangent, why was Andrew Johnson such a terrible president, and Buchanan as well?
So can we take that tiny tangent of why they were terrible pr- tangent on a tangent, why was Andrew Johnson such a terrible president, and Buchanan as well?
Gary Gallagher
I think he was a terrible president because he was extremely prejudiced. He had all kinds of grievances stacked up. He had the poor white man’s grievance from being in a slavehold. He hates… His slaveholders were part of his enemies when he was growing up, then he embraced them after the war. He was… He couldn’t get beyond his most profound lifelong prejudices. He was not malleable in any way. He thought what he thought, and that’s what he was always gonna think. And he just was not the right be- person to be in place.
I think he was a terrible president because he was extremely prejudiced. He had all kinds of grievances stacked up. He had the poor white man’s grievance from being in a slavehold. He hates… His slaveholders were part of his enemies when he was growing up, then he embraced them after the war. He was… He couldn’t get beyond his most profound lifelong prejudices. He was not malleable in any way. He thought what he thought, and that’s what he was always gonna think. And he just was not the right be- person to be in place.
Lex Fridman
Well, why is Buchanan the worst president- … in America’s history?
Well, why is Buchanan the worst president- … in America’s history?
Gary Gallagher
If you had a dictionary that had the word hack in it, it should have a picture of James Buchanan by it. He was an absolute political hack- … who made his way up by staying alive and doing everything that you should do as a party hack as you went along. And then, oh, I ended up as president in 1856 because there’s a… The person I’m running against is from a party, this is the first time they’re running a candidate. His way of dealing with the secession crisis was basically hiding under his desk and hoping the roof didn’t fall in before he got out of Washington. He’s just, he’s just horrible.
If you had a dictionary that had the word hack in it, it should have a picture of James Buchanan by it. He was an absolute political hack- … who made his way up by staying alive and doing everything that you should do as a party hack as you went along. And then, oh, I ended up as president in 1856 because there’s a… The person I’m running against is from a party, this is the first time they’re running a candidate. His way of dealing with the secession crisis was basically hiding under his desk and hoping the roof didn’t fall in before he got out of Washington. He’s just, he’s just horrible.
Lex Fridman
I think from that I get a sense that what you admire in a leader and a president is a kind of backbone-
I think from that I get a sense that what you admire in a leader and a president is a kind of backbone-
Gary Gallagher
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
… to be able to, again, take risks and to stand behind political savvy, yes, but also a backbone behind that savvy.
… to be able to, again, take risks and to stand behind political savvy, yes, but also a backbone behind that savvy.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, and to actually change a position if you’re persuaded- … by both events and good counsel that you had the wrong position before. Go ahead and do that.
Yes, and to actually change a position if you’re persuaded- … by both events and good counsel that you had the wrong position before. Go ahead and do that.
Lex Fridman
So some kind of balance of a backbone behind principles and malleability based on the information, knowledge, and wisdom that you gain-
So some kind of balance of a backbone behind principles and malleability based on the information, knowledge, and wisdom that you gain-
Gary Gallagher
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
… versus for convenience or out of fear.
… versus for convenience or out of fear.
Gary Gallagher
There’s an apocryphal story about Lincoln that I think gets at his willingness to row against the tide if he needed to. He’s… They’re discussing something in a cabinet meeting, and he says, “Well, let’s vote. Let me get your sense.” And they went around the table, and every cabinet member voted no. And Lincoln said, “Well, that’s six nos and one yes. Mine, the ayes have it.” I mean, he’s… So he listened to them, and in that case, he’s willing to do something that’s unpopular and knows that he’s gonna get… But he’ll do it because… And that’s a quality not everybody has either.
There’s an apocryphal story about Lincoln that I think gets at his willingness to row against the tide if he needed to. He’s… They’re discussing something in a cabinet meeting, and he says, “Well, let’s vote. Let me get your sense.” And they went around the table, and every cabinet member voted no. And Lincoln said, “Well, that’s six nos and one yes. Mine, the ayes have it.” I mean, he’s… So he listened to them, and in that case, he’s willing to do something that’s unpopular and knows that he’s gonna get… But he’ll do it because… And that’s a quality not everybody has either.
Lex Fridman
Who’s the greatest president in the history of the United-
Who’s the greatest president in the history of the United-
Gary Gallagher
In my view?
In my view?
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gary Gallagher
In my view, it’s neck and neck with Washington and Lincoln. Without Washington, there’s no United States, so it’s sort of hard to go against him. He set all kinds of precedents that were really important.
In my view, it’s neck and neck with Washington and Lincoln. Without Washington, there’s no United States, so it’s sort of hard to go against him. He set all kinds of precedents that were really important.
Lex Fridman
Just giving away power.
Just giving away power.
Gary Gallagher
Twice. He did it twice. The Europeans couldn’t wrap their minds around that. He gave it away after the revolution. In other words, his message is, “I’m not Caesar. I’m not Cromwell. I’m not Napoleon.” There hadn’t been a Napoleon yet, but anyway, he wasn’t one. “I had power, and I gave it back.” And then he stepped down. He would’ve been president for life if he wanted to be. He did two terms. That’s enough. Let somebody else do it. Who does that?
Twice. He did it twice. The Europeans couldn’t wrap their minds around that. He gave it away after the revolution. In other words, his message is, “I’m not Caesar. I’m not Cromwell. I’m not Napoleon.” There hadn’t been a Napoleon yet, but anyway, he wasn’t one. “I had power, and I gave it back.” And then he stepped down. He would’ve been president for life if he wanted to be. He did two terms. That’s enough. Let somebody else do it. Who does that?
Gary Gallagher
But he embodies the notion of what… This is what a citizen soldier does. He comes forward at a time of crisis, he does his duty, and when the crisis is over, he is Cincinnatus. He goes back to his farm when this is over with, because the point is, he’d done what republic… small R republican virtue dictated, and then he went back. And that image was invoked over and over and over again. The small R repub- This has nothing to do with the Republican Party. Small R republican virtue of disinterested service to your republic. It’s… And Washington embodied that. He’s crucial. What’s always been fascinating to me, Lex, is you have this guy, he’s surrounded by this freakishly talented group of people in this little nation.
But he embodies the notion of what… This is what a citizen soldier does. He comes forward at a time of crisis, he does his duty, and when the crisis is over, he is Cincinnatus. He goes back to his farm when this is over with, because the point is, he’d done what republic… small R republican virtue dictated, and then he went back. And that image was invoked over and over and over again. The small R repub- This has nothing to do with the Republican Party. Small R republican virtue of disinterested service to your republic. It’s… And Washington embodied that. He’s crucial. What’s always been fascinating to me, Lex, is you have this guy, he’s surrounded by this freakishly talented group of people in this little nation.
Gary Gallagher
You have Madison and Hamilton and Jefferson and Franklin, all these people who are probably smarter than Washington. They’ve certainly read more Greek and Latin than Washington, and yet nobody’s concerned about who the man is.
You have Madison and Hamilton and Jefferson and Franklin, all these people who are probably smarter than Washington. They’ve certainly read more Greek and Latin than Washington, and yet nobody’s concerned about who the man is.
Gary Gallagher
It’s Washington. He’s the guy. We’re smarter. He’s… It’s like what Sherman said about Grant one time. Sherman’s smarter than Grant, probably. Sherman said, “I know more about strategy than Grant. I know more about tactics. I know more about supply. I know more about everything than U.S. Grant does. But where he beats me and where he beats the world is he don’t give a damn what the enemy is doing out of his sight, and that scares me like hell.” In other words, Grant could just let the background noise go away, focus on his thing, and do what he was gonna do, and Sherman couldn’t do that. Grant liberated Sherman to become a great general because he had Grant over him taking responsibility.
It’s Washington. He’s the guy. We’re smarter. He’s… It’s like what Sherman said about Grant one time. Sherman’s smarter than Grant, probably. Sherman said, “I know more about strategy than Grant. I know more about tactics. I know more about supply. I know more about everything than U.S. Grant does. But where he beats me and where he beats the world is he don’t give a damn what the enemy is doing out of his sight, and that scares me like hell.” In other words, Grant could just let the background noise go away, focus on his thing, and do what he was gonna do, and Sherman couldn’t do that. Grant liberated Sherman to become a great general because he had Grant over him taking responsibility.
Gary Gallagher
It’s really fascinating. And Washington, whatever faults he had, he could take responsibility, and was aware that he was setting precedents as the first president of this new republic almost every time he did something. It’s a precedent. What did Washington do? Well, he gave up his uniform, and then he gave up the presidency.
It’s really fascinating. And Washington, whatever faults he had, he could take responsibility, and was aware that he was setting precedents as the first president of this new republic almost every time he did something. It’s a precedent. What did Washington do? Well, he gave up his uniform, and then he gave up the presidency.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, just from studying history, understanding how difficult it is to give away power in the way that Washington did, I have to put him as the number one.
Yeah, just from studying history, understanding how difficult it is to give away power in the way that Washington did, I have to put him as the number one.
Gary Gallagher
Yeah, because without him, the rest doesn’t happen. I mean, that’s my bottom line on it, and I really do believe that. Without him, the rest doesn’t happen. I don’t know what… If they hadn’t had Washington to persuade people that a stronger central government might be possible because Washington’s gonna be president, who else would they agree could be trusted? There’s Washington, and then there’s everybody else.
Yeah, because without him, the rest doesn’t happen. I mean, that’s my bottom line on it, and I really do believe that. Without him, the rest doesn’t happen. I don’t know what… If they hadn’t had Washington to persuade people that a stronger central government might be possible because Washington’s gonna be president, who else would they agree could be trusted? There’s Washington, and then there’s everybody else.
Lex Fridman
And I think America’s a truly positive force in human history. So the fact that whatever ideas that were created at that time, and that Washington was the foundation of that is a great gift to humanity.
And I think America’s a truly positive force in human history. So the fact that whatever ideas that were created at that time, and that Washington was the foundation of that is a great gift to humanity.
Gary Gallagher
Lucky to have him, lucky to have Lincoln. We’ve been lucky in our leaders, Indy. We’re lucky to have FDR in World War II. I mean, we’ve been lucky to have- … people at moments of real crisis.
Lucky to have him, lucky to have Lincoln. We’ve been lucky in our leaders, Indy. We’re lucky to have FDR in World War II. I mean, we’ve been lucky to have- … people at moments of real crisis.
Lex Fridman
But we need the basement, too. We need, we need the full variety.
But we need the basement, too. We need, we need the full variety.
Gary Gallagher
Well, we’ve got them. And you never know when we might need a new sub-basement. That’s… So it’s just, it’s complicated and an ongoing story.
Well, we’ve got them. And you never know when we might need a new sub-basement. That’s… So it’s just, it’s complicated and an ongoing story.
Lex Fridman
Man, it is a beautiful theater, a beautiful drama, and I, like you, have faith in the resilience of the people to deal with the full mess of it. Quick bathroom break if it’s okay. I wanted to mention to you just as a plug but also as a big thank you that I don’t know how many hours, it must be maybe over 50 hours I’ve enjoyed listening to your Great Courses. So you have two on the American Civil War and on Robert E. Lee. And so I just wanted to mention this thing that I’ve been using. It’s called Plaud. So what I do is I run along the river, and then I’ll use this Plaud thing where you just press the button, and then you leave a note, like what I’m saying now is being recorded. And then it transcribed. Those notes are then transferred.
Man, it is a beautiful theater, a beautiful drama, and I, like you, have faith in the resilience of the people to deal with the full mess of it. Quick bathroom break if it’s okay. I wanted to mention to you just as a plug but also as a big thank you that I don’t know how many hours, it must be maybe over 50 hours I’ve enjoyed listening to your Great Courses. So you have two on the American Civil War and on Robert E. Lee. And so I just wanted to mention this thing that I’ve been using. It’s called Plaud. So what I do is I run along the river, and then I’ll use this Plaud thing where you just press the button, and then you leave a note, like what I’m saying now is being recorded. And then it transcribed. Those notes are then transferred.
Gary Gallagher
God, technology. Geez.
God, technology. Geez.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, this thing is great. So it’s great for just… It’s been running this whole time, too, so it’s transcribing automatically. It’s using AI to transcribe-
Yeah, this thing is great. So it’s great for just… It’s been running this whole time, too, so it’s transcribing automatically. It’s using AI to transcribe-
Gary Gallagher
Oh, so it’s doing every word, everything that we say?
Oh, so it’s doing every word, everything that we say?
Lex Fridman
Yeah. You know, transcribing it into text. And then it can summarize it for you, and then I organize and study the notes afterwards. This thing is great. Highly recommend it. It’s called Plaud.
Yeah. You know, transcribing it into text. And then it can summarize it for you, and then I organize and study the notes afterwards. This thing is great. Highly recommend it. It’s called Plaud.
Gary Gallagher
Plaud.
Plaud.
Lex Fridman
Plaud. It’s a clip.
Plaud. It’s a clip.
Gary Gallagher
I used to run around Town Lake or what was, I guess it’s Lady Bird Johnson Lake now. Is that what they call it? We used to run six miles a day at noon for years when I worked at the LBJ Library. We had a little group of us who went.
I used to run around Town Lake or what was, I guess it’s Lady Bird Johnson Lake now. Is that what they call it? We used to run six miles a day at noon for years when I worked at the LBJ Library. We had a little group of us who went.
Lex Fridman
Just run?
Just run?
Gary Gallagher
Just ran. We’d do it in… We would do six miles in 38 minutes.
Just ran. We’d do it in… We would do six miles in 38 minutes.
Lex Fridman
It’s actually a really hard problem to solve, of how to not take memory. I’m just really happy this exists. Okay. ‘Cause my smartphone was being a pain in the ass, like writing it down. It’s been a hard problem for me to solve. You listen to audiobooks or no? Or you just read?
It’s actually a really hard problem to solve, of how to not take memory. I’m just really happy this exists. Okay. ‘Cause my smartphone was being a pain in the ass, like writing it down. It’s been a hard problem for me to solve. You listen to audiobooks or no? Or you just read?
Gary Gallagher
All the time on my w- I walk… I don’t run anymore, but I walk six or seven miles a day, and I listen to audio, to Audible all the time. That’s what I do. I love Audible.
All the time on my w- I walk… I don’t run anymore, but I walk six or seven miles a day, and I listen to audio, to Audible all the time. That’s what I do. I love Audible.
Lex Fridman
Well, just out of curiosity, just take that tangent. Do you listen to, like, history books? Like what… Or do you wanna escape?
Well, just out of curiosity, just take that tangent. Do you listen to, like, history books? Like what… Or do you wanna escape?
Gary Gallagher
I listen to a mixture. I listen to some history books, but I also listen to some mysteries and some-
I listen to a mixture. I listen to some history books, but I also listen to some mysteries and some-
Lex Fridman
So fiction is also-
So fiction is also-
Gary Gallagher
Oh, fiction, oh yeah. Yeah, and some books that I think I should listen to and haven’t ever gotten around to reading. I did Moby-Dick that way.
Oh, fiction, oh yeah. Yeah, and some books that I think I should listen to and haven’t ever gotten around to reading. I did Moby-Dick that way.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. So the classics also?
Mm-hmm. So the classics also?
Gary Gallagher
Oh, yeah. But I’ve never read War and Peace, and I don’t think I ever will. I think… I would’ve done it by now if I was going to.
Oh, yeah. But I’ve never read War and Peace, and I don’t think I ever will. I think… I would’ve done it by now if I was going to.
Lex Fridman
We’re making a statement today. I like a person who’s not, not always, but I like short books.
We’re making a statement today. I like a person who’s not, not always, but I like short books.
Gary Gallagher
I do too. I write short books. A lot of long books would make good short books, and a lot of short books would make good essays, I think.
I do too. I write short books. A lot of long books would make good short books, and a lot of short books would make good essays, I think.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, can you… I’m sorry to be taking so many tangents ’cause you’ve written so many excellent books. How much of it is editing? Like how– or what does it take to write a good history book? What’s the process?
Yeah, can you… I’m sorry to be taking so many tangents ’cause you’ve written so many excellent books. How much of it is editing? Like how– or what does it take to write a good history book? What’s the process?
Gary Gallagher
Well, for me, it’s having either a question that you wanna answer or having some strain in the literature that you think is wrong, and you need to… For me, the Union War was trying to rescue something that I thought people just don’t understand anymore, is what union meant to that generation. It makes more sense… A war fought to end slavery makes sense to us now. That’s, of course, it’s a monstrous institution, fight a war, but that’s not what it was about for most of the people. And to get at what it was about is a harder pull, and explaining what union then meant to an era where it doesn’t mean anything. I mean, union as they understood it doesn’t– it’s not in our vocabulary anymore. It has to do with labor relations now.
Well, for me, it’s having either a question that you wanna answer or having some strain in the literature that you think is wrong, and you need to… For me, the Union War was trying to rescue something that I thought people just don’t understand anymore, is what union meant to that generation. It makes more sense… A war fought to end slavery makes sense to us now. That’s, of course, it’s a monstrous institution, fight a war, but that’s not what it was about for most of the people. And to get at what it was about is a harder pull, and explaining what union then meant to an era where it doesn’t mean anything. I mean, union as they understood it doesn’t– it’s not in our vocabulary anymore. It has to do with labor relations now.
Gary Gallagher
But to say, “What is– but what does the concept of union mean?” Get crickets.
But to say, “What is– but what does the concept of union mean?” Get crickets.
Lex Fridman
Is it basically a strong sense of nation? So, like, what… Can we just kinda pull that apart? So there’s different states, and uh, Americans have always had a sense of, like, “I’m from this state” pride-
Is it basically a strong sense of nation? So, like, what… Can we just kinda pull that apart? So there’s different states, and uh, Americans have always had a sense of, like, “I’m from this state” pride-
Gary Gallagher
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman
… being from the state.
… being from the state.
Gary Gallagher
You have different loyalties. You have a state pride and a, and maybe even a regional pride. I think… I wrote a little book where I talked about Robert E. Lee in that regard as part of it, where he has a sense of loyalty to the nation, to the state, to the slaveholding South, and so forth. But union, I mean, it’s composed of individual states which engender loyalties among the people who live in them, but the parts make a greater whole, and that’s what the union is, and you have to have the whole- To get all the benefits.
You have different loyalties. You have a state pride and a, and maybe even a regional pride. I think… I wrote a little book where I talked about Robert E. Lee in that regard as part of it, where he has a sense of loyalty to the nation, to the state, to the slaveholding South, and so forth. But union, I mean, it’s composed of individual states which engender loyalties among the people who live in them, but the parts make a greater whole, and that’s what the union is, and you have to have the whole- To get all the benefits.
Gary Gallagher
Because … And that is what people thought then, and they tied it to the revolution, of course, and tied it to earlier sacrifice, and tie- They had an eye on what’s going on in Europe. I mean, the Western world was their world. They didn’t care that much about the rest of the world. But the Western world, what’s going on there, and I think they believed things were going the wrong way in much of Europe, that the, all the revolutionary fervor of the 1840s had seemed to run into a cliff of oligarchy and aristocracy and monarchy, and they saw the US as a bulwark against that for small D democracy.
Because … And that is what people thought then, and they tied it to the revolution, of course, and tied it to earlier sacrifice, and tie- They had an eye on what’s going on in Europe. I mean, the Western world was their world. They didn’t care that much about the rest of the world. But the Western world, what’s going on there, and I think they believed things were going the wrong way in much of Europe, that the, all the revolutionary fervor of the 1840s had seemed to run into a cliff of oligarchy and aristocracy and monarchy, and they saw the US as a bulwark against that for small D democracy.
Lex Fridman
I think having a faith in nation is a beautiful thing. It’s a narrative that unites a people. And I think that in itself has power. It’s not … You can make an economic argument, you can make a freedom argument, all these arguments you can make, but I think what makes a nation is a bunch of people believing in a narrative. It’s like what makes a great company. There’s a mission. The power of humans when you together believe in a thing is remarkable. And so that belief in itself is really powerful.
I think having a faith in nation is a beautiful thing. It’s a narrative that unites a people. And I think that in itself has power. It’s not … You can make an economic argument, you can make a freedom argument, all these arguments you can make, but I think what makes a nation is a bunch of people believing in a narrative. It’s like what makes a great company. There’s a mission. The power of humans when you together believe in a thing is remarkable. And so that belief in itself is really powerful.
Gary Gallagher
That clearly was there among many, many, many, many. Not everybody, of course, but it was widespread. And Lincoln articulated it- … perfectly, and he did it again and again, talking about give the … You wanna give a person a chance to rise, a person… And talking about the last best hope of Earth, and talking… I mean, he got it, and he distilled it, and he conveyed it. And it’s not as if he’s telling people things they don’t already know, but he’s reaffirming things in ways that are eloquent and memorable.
That clearly was there among many, many, many, many. Not everybody, of course, but it was widespread. And Lincoln articulated it- … perfectly, and he did it again and again, talking about give the … You wanna give a person a chance to rise, a person… And talking about the last best hope of Earth, and talking… I mean, he got it, and he distilled it, and he conveyed it. And it’s not as if he’s telling people things they don’t already know, but he’s reaffirming things in ways that are eloquent and memorable.
Lex Fridman
Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to the conversation.
Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to the conversation.
Robert E. Lee
Lex Fridman
All right. So we were talking about-
All right. So we were talking about-
Gary Gallagher
Where are we?
Where are we?
Lex Fridman
… Antietam.
… Antietam.
Gary Gallagher
Okay.
Okay.
Lex Fridman
And how that was the moment when the Union realized-
And how that was the moment when the Union realized-
Gary Gallagher
Preliminary Proclamation…
Preliminary Proclamation…
Lex Fridman
… Preliminary Proclamation, where it’s like, okay, slavery has to be a thing as a central part- … of the Civil War. And so where does that take us? Also very bloody battle. The generals, McClellan, the end of the McClellan chapter, and that takes us to Fredericksburg. So what happened at Fredericksburg?
… Preliminary Proclamation, where it’s like, okay, slavery has to be a thing as a central part- … of the Civil War. And so where does that take us? Also very bloody battle. The generals, McClellan, the end of the McClellan chapter, and that takes us to Fredericksburg. So what happened at Fredericksburg?
Gary Gallagher
Fredericksburg was a … It’s another victory for Lee. It’s an easy victory for Lee. He has a very strong position on high ground across the Rappahannock River from the Union forces, who are opposite Fredericksburg. His opponent is a guy named Ambrose Everett Burnside, who’s a very affable guy, kind of a nice guy, who gave us the word sideburns. He wore his whiskers that came down and came up and made, and- … it wasn’t a beard, and they were called burnsides at the time. The burnside cut, which was transposed into sideburns. Everybody liked him. He just wasn’t very bright in some ways. He became … He’s a politician after the war, so he went into the right field, but he was- His idea at Fredericksburg-
Fredericksburg was a … It’s another victory for Lee. It’s an easy victory for Lee. He has a very strong position on high ground across the Rappahannock River from the Union forces, who are opposite Fredericksburg. His opponent is a guy named Ambrose Everett Burnside, who’s a very affable guy, kind of a nice guy, who gave us the word sideburns. He wore his whiskers that came down and came up and made, and- … it wasn’t a beard, and they were called burnsides at the time. The burnside cut, which was transposed into sideburns. Everybody liked him. He just wasn’t very bright in some ways. He became … He’s a politician after the war, so he went into the right field, but he was- His idea at Fredericksburg-
Gary Gallagher
… was to, in the end, it wasn’t his original plan, but he ended up launching frontal assaults one brigade at a time against very strongly entrenched Confederates, and it was a butchery for … And another horrible defeat for the Army of the Potomac. Lincoln was really cast down by it, and it just seemed that in this Eastern theater, he could not get any good news. He’s getting good news from the West. He’s not getting any good news here, and he has this revolving door of commanders. Burnside tried another march in late January 1863. He was gonna get around Lee’s flank, but he had horrible weather. His army literally got stuck in the mud. Then it was lampooned as the Mud March, and he removed him from command.
… was to, in the end, it wasn’t his original plan, but he ended up launching frontal assaults one brigade at a time against very strongly entrenched Confederates, and it was a butchery for … And another horrible defeat for the Army of the Potomac. Lincoln was really cast down by it, and it just seemed that in this Eastern theater, he could not get any good news. He’s getting good news from the West. He’s not getting any good news here, and he has this revolving door of commanders. Burnside tried another march in late January 1863. He was gonna get around Lee’s flank, but he had horrible weather. His army literally got stuck in the mud. Then it was lampooned as the Mud March, and he removed him from command.
Gary Gallagher
So now he has another commander in the Army of the Potomac. So you’ve had McClellan and Burnside, and now a guy named Joseph Hooker. You have no continuity at the top in that army. You have complete continuity at the top in the Army of Northern Virginia, which is a huge advantage to the Army of Northern Virginia.
So now he has another commander in the Army of the Potomac. So you’ve had McClellan and Burnside, and now a guy named Joseph Hooker. You have no continuity at the top in that army. You have complete continuity at the top in the Army of Northern Virginia, which is a huge advantage to the Army of Northern Virginia.
Lex Fridman
So this is where the famous words of Robert E. Lee were … He was watching the slaughter. He said that “It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.” What did he mean by that?
So this is where the famous words of Robert E. Lee were … He was watching the slaughter. He said that “It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.” What did he mean by that?
Gary Gallagher
He was getting… I mean, he was watching his soldiers butcher Union soldiers and, I guess, kind of enjoying it. He’s in a really strong position with really guard artillery supporting his infantry, and the Union troops are just attacking them and not having any success. And so there he is. He’s up there with James Longstreet and other people and watching it. And he, unlike McClellan, was willing to risk, obviously, piling up casualties in every battle. Didn’t have that many at Fredericksburg. There were about 12 and a half thousand US casualties at Fredericksburg and about 5,500 Confederate casualties because they were so well-protected in their defensive lines.
He was getting… I mean, he was watching his soldiers butcher Union soldiers and, I guess, kind of enjoying it. He’s in a really strong position with really guard artillery supporting his infantry, and the Union troops are just attacking them and not having any success. And so there he is. He’s up there with James Longstreet and other people and watching it. And he, unlike McClellan, was willing to risk, obviously, piling up casualties in every battle. Didn’t have that many at Fredericksburg. There were about 12 and a half thousand US casualties at Fredericksburg and about 5,500 Confederate casualties because they were so well-protected in their defensive lines.
Lex Fridman
So you are working on a manuscript on Chancellorsville. It’s a legendary battle for many reasons. Can you break down some of the military details of what made up that battle to give us a sense of, in general, what battles were like?
So you are working on a manuscript on Chancellorsville. It’s a legendary battle for many reasons. Can you break down some of the military details of what made up that battle to give us a sense of, in general, what battles were like?
Gary Gallagher
This is often described as Lee’s most successful battle. It’s him against Joseph Hooker. It’s the last battle that Lee and Jackson fought as a team, Lee and Stonewall Jackson, with Stonewall Jackson as his principal subordinate. Hooker had replaced Burnside. Hooker had maneuvered to get rid of Burnside. He wanted to be in commander of the army. He had made a statement that he said what the nation needed was a dictator to make sure it won. And Lincoln, one of the best letters a president ever wrote to a military commander, Lincoln wrote to Hooker, and he said basically, “I know everything you’re saying.
This is often described as Lee’s most successful battle. It’s him against Joseph Hooker. It’s the last battle that Lee and Jackson fought as a team, Lee and Stonewall Jackson, with Stonewall Jackson as his principal subordinate. Hooker had replaced Burnside. Hooker had maneuvered to get rid of Burnside. He wanted to be in commander of the army. He had made a statement that he said what the nation needed was a dictator to make sure it won. And Lincoln, one of the best letters a president ever wrote to a military commander, Lincoln wrote to Hooker, and he said basically, “I know everything you’re saying.
Gary Gallagher
You’re talking about all the things you’re gonna do.” And he said that, “The only way you get to be a dictator is if you have victories, and I’m willing to risk a dictatorship to get victories. And so I know I’ve got you figured out, Joe,” he’s saying, and he did. Hooker made a lot of blustery talk. He got a … He had a great start. He built the army into what he called the greatest army on the planet, about 135,000 men, beautifully supplied, reorganized the medical service in it. He did everything that you should do to get an army in shape, and then he started a campaign. His plan, Lee was still at Fredericksburg. He was gonna get around Lee’s left flank, come in behind him, force Lee to either retreat to Richmond or fight him on unfavorable ground.
You’re talking about all the things you’re gonna do.” And he said that, “The only way you get to be a dictator is if you have victories, and I’m willing to risk a dictatorship to get victories. And so I know I’ve got you figured out, Joe,” he’s saying, and he did. Hooker made a lot of blustery talk. He got a … He had a great start. He built the army into what he called the greatest army on the planet, about 135,000 men, beautifully supplied, reorganized the medical service in it. He did everything that you should do to get an army in shape, and then he started a campaign. His plan, Lee was still at Fredericksburg. He was gonna get around Lee’s left flank, come in behind him, force Lee to either retreat to Richmond or fight him on unfavorable ground.
Gary Gallagher
Everything went well with Hooker. He got going in late April until the moment of truth came. The moment of truth came on May 1st, 1863, when Lee, instead of retreating, left part of his army to watch one part of Hooker’s and turned around to meet Hooker head-on near a crossroads called Chancellorsville a few miles west of Fredericksburg. And as soon as the fighting started, McClellan lost his nerve-
Everything went well with Hooker. He got going in late April until the moment of truth came. The moment of truth came on May 1st, 1863, when Lee, instead of retreating, left part of his army to watch one part of Hooker’s and turned around to meet Hooker head-on near a crossroads called Chancellorsville a few miles west of Fredericksburg. And as soon as the fighting started, McClellan lost his nerve-
Gary Gallagher
… pulled into a defensive position. And the upshot was after Lee and Jackson carried off a very successful flank attack, although it left Mc- Hooker still in a very strong position, Hooker in the end retreated, and it was another victory for Lee in a battle he never, ever should have won. He was outnumbered two to one, 135,000 to about 64,000. And when the moment of truth came, Joseph Hooker just lost his nerve. I mean, I really do believe that. I had fun working on this book. I wrote a … A lot of books on campaigns are very long and detailed. I wanted a short book that would introduce interested readers who didn’t really know that much perhaps to … There’s one of the maps.
… pulled into a defensive position. And the upshot was after Lee and Jackson carried off a very successful flank attack, although it left Mc- Hooker still in a very strong position, Hooker in the end retreated, and it was another victory for Lee in a battle he never, ever should have won. He was outnumbered two to one, 135,000 to about 64,000. And when the moment of truth came, Joseph Hooker just lost his nerve. I mean, I really do believe that. I had fun working on this book. I wrote a … A lot of books on campaigns are very long and detailed. I wanted a short book that would introduce interested readers who didn’t really know that much perhaps to … There’s one of the maps.
Lex Fridman
So there are different, there’s different positions, the different troops’ positions. There’s Hooker.
So there are different, there’s different positions, the different troops’ positions. There’s Hooker.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. That is the … The battle played out on May 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. There’s the opening of the campaign. See the Rappahannock River, Fredericksburg. The armies are facing each other there. Hooker’s plan was to leave part of his army to hold Lee’s attention and move the rest up the river, up the Rappahannock, cross the Rappahannock and then the Rapidan, and get behind Lee so that Lee would be caught in a vise.
Yes. That is the … The battle played out on May 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. There’s the opening of the campaign. See the Rappahannock River, Fredericksburg. The armies are facing each other there. Hooker’s plan was to leave part of his army to hold Lee’s attention and move the rest up the river, up the Rappahannock, cross the Rappahannock and then the Rapidan, and get behind Lee so that Lee would be caught in a vise.
Gary Gallagher
He’d have Hooker in his rear and the anvil of other Union troops at Fredericksburg, and he thought that that would force Lee to retreat toward Richmond and that he could then harass him. They get around, they get behind Lee. They do exactly what Hooker wanted to do. He got to Chancellorsville. He had more than 70,000 men at Chancellorsville, and Lee doesn’t find out till the very end of April what’s going on, and then he decides to divide his army, leave 10,000 men to watch 40,000 Federals at Fredericksburg, and he and Stonewall Jackson head back toward Chancellorsville to meet Hooker. And they meet on May the 1st. The fighting starts on May the 1st. Everybody’s upbeat in the Army of the Potomac. They’ve gotten around Lee’s flank. They know they’re behind him.
He’d have Hooker in his rear and the anvil of other Union troops at Fredericksburg, and he thought that that would force Lee to retreat toward Richmond and that he could then harass him. They get around, they get behind Lee. They do exactly what Hooker wanted to do. He got to Chancellorsville. He had more than 70,000 men at Chancellorsville, and Lee doesn’t find out till the very end of April what’s going on, and then he decides to divide his army, leave 10,000 men to watch 40,000 Federals at Fredericksburg, and he and Stonewall Jackson head back toward Chancellorsville to meet Hooker. And they meet on May the 1st. The fighting starts on May the 1st. Everybody’s upbeat in the Army of the Potomac. They’ve gotten around Lee’s flank. They know they’re behind him.
Gary Gallagher
Everything seems to go very well. Hooker said, “This is it. We’ve done it. We’ve done exactly what I wanted to do.” And then the fighting starts the next day on May 1st. They march toward that place called Zoan Church. You can see there, it’s just a little bit east of Chancellorsville. And the fighting, they collide about 11:00 in the morning. 2:00 that afternoon, Hooker orders a retreat. Everybody retreats back into this wilderness. It’s a kind of cut-over, woodsy area that it has very few roads, and he just hunkers down around Chancellorsville, hands the initiative to Lee. The next day, Jackson and Lee decide to send Jackson all the way around the right flank, and you see the flank march there.
Everything seems to go very well. Hooker said, “This is it. We’ve done it. We’ve done exactly what I wanted to do.” And then the fighting starts the next day on May 1st. They march toward that place called Zoan Church. You can see there, it’s just a little bit east of Chancellorsville. And the fighting, they collide about 11:00 in the morning. 2:00 that afternoon, Hooker orders a retreat. Everybody retreats back into this wilderness. It’s a kind of cut-over, woodsy area that it has very few roads, and he just hunkers down around Chancellorsville, hands the initiative to Lee. The next day, Jackson and Lee decide to send Jackson all the way around the right flank, and you see the flank march there.
Gary Gallagher
They come, they strike a Union corps that’s exposed, commanded by a man named Oliver Otis Howard. Howard University is named after him. He headed the Freedmen’s Bureau later in the war. They strike, they crush the 11th Corps, which has a very high German element in it, and there’s a lot of ethnic prejudice that comes into play there by the other soldiers. But the, it ends up, the day ends up with Lee actually in worse shape than he was before. He’s got two divisions over here under Anderson and McLaws on the lower right. He’s not even in touch with Jackson’s corps. Jackson was wounded that night by his own men, carried from the field. He’d die a few days later. And Hooker still, although Hooker is in between these two parts of Lee’s army, he’s in an ideal position.
They come, they strike a Union corps that’s exposed, commanded by a man named Oliver Otis Howard. Howard University is named after him. He headed the Freedmen’s Bureau later in the war. They strike, they crush the 11th Corps, which has a very high German element in it, and there’s a lot of ethnic prejudice that comes into play there by the other soldiers. But the, it ends up, the day ends up with Lee actually in worse shape than he was before. He’s got two divisions over here under Anderson and McLaws on the lower right. He’s not even in touch with Jackson’s corps. Jackson was wounded that night by his own men, carried from the field. He’d die a few days later. And Hooker still, although Hooker is in between these two parts of Lee’s army, he’s in an ideal position.
Gary Gallagher
He’s still just thinking about the defense even. Where on the morning of May 3rd, the two parts of Lee’s army fight their way together around the Chancellorsville- … clearing, and Hooker then retreats toward the north. You have this amazing moment on May the 3rd where Hooker, who’s been stunned by an artillery round that hit a pillar he was leaning against at Chancellorsville-
He’s still just thinking about the defense even. Where on the morning of May 3rd, the two parts of Lee’s army fight their way together around the Chancellorsville- … clearing, and Hooker then retreats toward the north. You have this amazing moment on May the 3rd where Hooker, who’s been stunned by an artillery round that hit a pillar he was leaning against at Chancellorsville-
Gary Gallagher
… he had a concussion. He was vomiting. He retreated to the rear. And as the Union troops retreated from that clearing near Chancellorsville, Lee’s army had fought itself together, and Lee rode into the middle of his troops. And there was this amazing moment when this spontaneous outpouring of emotion on the part of the Confederates, that’s the moment when Lee and his men finished this period of bonding this year that was unmatched in the Civil War. See, there’s no way Lee should’ve won this battle.
… he had a concussion. He was vomiting. He retreated to the rear. And as the Union troops retreated from that clearing near Chancellorsville, Lee’s army had fought itself together, and Lee rode into the middle of his troops. And there was this amazing moment when this spontaneous outpouring of emotion on the part of the Confederates, that’s the moment when Lee and his men finished this period of bonding this year that was unmatched in the Civil War. See, there’s no way Lee should’ve won this battle.
Gary Gallagher
There’s one more day of action a little farther to the, to the east. But in the end, Hooker retreats. He never should’ve retreated. He was in an impregnable position, but he did retreat. And Lincoln was absolutely beside himself after this. He just couldn’t … Everybody knew what the numbers were. The newspapers had talked about it-
There’s one more day of action a little farther to the, to the east. But in the end, Hooker retreats. He never should’ve retreated. He was in an impregnable position, but he did retreat. And Lincoln was absolutely beside himself after this. He just couldn’t … Everybody knew what the numbers were. The newspapers had talked about it-
Gary Gallagher
… that Lee had only half as many men as Hooker, and once again, the Army of the Potomac, the largest and most important army of the Republic, has been defeated by this smaller army. It, Lee’s sort of legend in the North grew and in the South. He became, by this point, he and his army were the most important national institution in the Confederacy. People looked to them to see whether indep- It’s like Washington and the Continental Army during the Revolution. If they’re still in the field, there’s still a chance for victory. This cemented that position for Lee, this victory at Chancellorsville did, in the minds of Confederates, and made him a kind of bugaboo to people in the North. They were just thirsty for someone to defeat Lee and capture Richmond.
… that Lee had only half as many men as Hooker, and once again, the Army of the Potomac, the largest and most important army of the Republic, has been defeated by this smaller army. It, Lee’s sort of legend in the North grew and in the South. He became, by this point, he and his army were the most important national institution in the Confederacy. People looked to them to see whether indep- It’s like Washington and the Continental Army during the Revolution. If they’re still in the field, there’s still a chance for victory. This cemented that position for Lee, this victory at Chancellorsville did, in the minds of Confederates, and made him a kind of bugaboo to people in the North. They were just thirsty for someone to defeat Lee and capture Richmond.
Lex Fridman
So this, in some sense, created the legend of Robert E. Lee.
So this, in some sense, created the legend of Robert E. Lee.
Gary Gallagher
It certainly helped solidi- Yes, it did. It went a long way toward doing it. A long way.
It certainly helped solidi- Yes, it did. It went a long way toward doing it. A long way.
Lex Fridman
So you write about, you know, the difference between sort of reality and memory. How does the North remember this battle, and how does the South remember this battle?
So you write about, you know, the difference between sort of reality and memory. How does the North remember this battle, and how does the South remember this battle?
Gary Gallagher
It’s really fascinating. The North remembers this battle by not remembering it very much.
It’s really fascinating. The North remembers this battle by not remembering it very much.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, ignoring it.
Yeah, ignoring it.
Gary Gallagher
They sort of airbrush it out of their memory of the war. The Confederates, in the iconography of the Lost Cause, this … Lee and Jackson had their last meeting ever here just before the fighting on May 2nd got going, and there was a famous painting of that done by an artist named Julio that was then reprinted as a lithograph that hung in innumerable homes and offices and courthouses in the South. It’s Lee and Jackson at high tide, kind of. Gettysburg hasn’t happened, never mind Appomattox. These are the two greatest Confederate soldiers at their greatest moment of success. It became hugely important in the Lost Cause telling of the war. On the Union side, they didn’t wanna talk about Joseph Hooker that much. They had … They’d rather talk about other things.
They sort of airbrush it out of their memory of the war. The Confederates, in the iconography of the Lost Cause, this … Lee and Jackson had their last meeting ever here just before the fighting on May 2nd got going, and there was a famous painting of that done by an artist named Julio that was then reprinted as a lithograph that hung in innumerable homes and offices and courthouses in the South. It’s Lee and Jackson at high tide, kind of. Gettysburg hasn’t happened, never mind Appomattox. These are the two greatest Confederate soldiers at their greatest moment of success. It became hugely important in the Lost Cause telling of the war. On the Union side, they didn’t wanna talk about Joseph Hooker that much. They had … They’d rather talk about other things.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s probably one of the most humiliating battles of the war from the Union side.
Yeah, it’s probably one of the most humiliating battles of the war from the Union side.
Gary Gallagher
I think it’s really just amazing that Hooker lost this. And it shows the complete dominance of one personality over another personality, in my view.
I think it’s really just amazing that Hooker lost this. And it shows the complete dominance of one personality over another personality, in my view.
Lex Fridman
So Stonewall Jackson was shot, killed.
So Stonewall Jackson was shot, killed.
Gary Gallagher
Shot by his own men, out trying to reconnoiter and keep the battle going and exploit his successes, carried back to the rear, and he died on May 10th, died eight days later.
Shot by his own men, out trying to reconnoiter and keep the battle going and exploit his successes, carried back to the rear, and he died on May 10th, died eight days later.
Lex Fridman
So what impact did that have, Stonewall Jackson’s death?
So what impact did that have, Stonewall Jackson’s death?
Gary Gallagher
Well, that had a hu- That, there was unbelievable mourning across the Confederacy about that, and even since, really interesting, even some positive comments in the North about how he’d been a sor- He was misguided, but a very religious guy and all of this stuff, but they’re quietly very, “That’s really good news for the United States that Stonewall Jackson is dead, and really bad news for the Confederacy.”
Well, that had a hu- That, there was unbelievable mourning across the Confederacy about that, and even since, really interesting, even some positive comments in the North about how he’d been a sor- He was misguided, but a very religious guy and all of this stuff, but they’re quietly very, “That’s really good news for the United States that Stonewall Jackson is dead, and really bad news for the Confederacy.”
Lex Fridman
Outside the myth, did it actually have a practical impact on the war?
Outside the myth, did it actually have a practical impact on the war?
Gary Gallagher
I don’t think so, and the people who love Stonewall Jackson would disagree with me, but I don’t see where he would’ve … He was a very good soldier at what he did, and Lee used him very well, and they were a good partnership, but I don’t see how he would’ve changed the larger contours of the war. I don’t.
I don’t think so, and the people who love Stonewall Jackson would disagree with me, but I don’t see where he would’ve … He was a very good soldier at what he did, and Lee used him very well, and they were a good partnership, but I don’t see how he would’ve changed the larger contours of the war. I don’t.
Lex Fridman
If we zoom out and look at Robert E. Lee, somebody you’ve written about quite a bit, studied a lot, do you think we can use this battle to try to understand the military genius of the man and, in general, who he was?
If we zoom out and look at Robert E. Lee, somebody you’ve written about quite a bit, studied a lot, do you think we can use this battle to try to understand the military genius of the man and, in general, who he was?
Gary Gallagher
I do, and it shows both why he was successful and why some of the reasons he was successful opened the way for what should’ve been big defeats but didn’t. I mean, Lee’s personality was, at heart, aggressive. His first impulse was always to take the war to the opponent. He said, “They outnumber us. If we just sit and wait for them to come to us, they’re gonna have all the advantages. We need to try to disrupt them and look for openings.”
I do, and it shows both why he was successful and why some of the reasons he was successful opened the way for what should’ve been big defeats but didn’t. I mean, Lee’s personality was, at heart, aggressive. His first impulse was always to take the war to the opponent. He said, “They outnumber us. If we just sit and wait for them to come to us, they’re gonna have all the advantages. We need to try to disrupt them and look for openings.”
Gary Gallagher
What this campaign showed was his audacity. He divided his army three times in the course of this campaign in the face of a much more powerful opponent, which showed his audacity. It also highlighted the overall culture that he created in his army, which was a culture of risk-taking, of seeking to inflict the greatest possible harm on your opponent. It’s the antithesis of the culture that McClellan created in the Army of the Potomac, which is a culture of caution, of not taking risks, of not doing anything until everything is just right.
What this campaign showed was his audacity. He divided his army three times in the course of this campaign in the face of a much more powerful opponent, which showed his audacity. It also highlighted the overall culture that he created in his army, which was a culture of risk-taking, of seeking to inflict the greatest possible harm on your opponent. It’s the antithesis of the culture that McClellan created in the Army of the Potomac, which is a culture of caution, of not taking risks, of not doing anything until everything is just right.
Gary Gallagher
Any adult knows everything is never just right, so if you’re waiting for that, you’ll never do anything. The two cultures are absolutely antithetical to one another, and in the end, it shows Lee and how what he had accomplished, he had created an army that was willing to absorb casualties because it won all the time.
Any adult knows everything is never just right, so if you’re waiting for that, you’ll never do anything. The two cultures are absolutely antithetical to one another, and in the end, it shows Lee and how what he had accomplished, he had created an army that was willing to absorb casualties because it won all the time.
Gary Gallagher
And they realized that that was, they believed, making it more likely that their whole war effort would be successful. There are only a few times during the war where you get a scene like you got on May 3rd, where this whole army sees the old man ride into their midst, basically, and just has this … I think they decided at that point, the soldiers, that he was always gonna win, and Lee looked at them and thought, “They can do whatever I ask them to do.” I think if you wanna understand Gettysburg, if you wanna understand Pickett’s Charge, you need to look back to May 3rd at Chancellorsville, when Lee just decided that his infantry could do anything he wanted them to do.
And they realized that that was, they believed, making it more likely that their whole war effort would be successful. There are only a few times during the war where you get a scene like you got on May 3rd, where this whole army sees the old man ride into their midst, basically, and just has this … I think they decided at that point, the soldiers, that he was always gonna win, and Lee looked at them and thought, “They can do whatever I ask them to do.” I think if you wanna understand Gettysburg, if you wanna understand Pickett’s Charge, you need to look back to May 3rd at Chancellorsville, when Lee just decided that his infantry could do anything he wanted them to do.
Lex Fridman
But also from the infantry perspective, they believed in the-
But also from the infantry perspective, they believed in the-
Gary Gallagher
You asked me earlier about what did the soldiers’ letters say. The letters from Lee’s army, they absolutely didn’t even contemplate losing to the Army of the Potomac. I mean, they just didn’t think- They didn’t think they would lose to it.
You asked me earlier about what did the soldiers’ letters say. The letters from Lee’s army, they absolutely didn’t even contemplate losing to the Army of the Potomac. I mean, they just didn’t think- They didn’t think they would lose to it.
Lex Fridman
What do you attribute that to? Is that, does it, Robert E. Lee, to him?
What do you attribute that to? Is that, does it, Robert E. Lee, to him?
Gary Gallagher
It’s to Lee and the fact that they won these victories under Lee, and that they took these chances, and everybody tried. And they always knew that they were outnumbered, and yet they were still winning. The closest the numbers had ever been at the seven days when the armies were about the same size, but after that, Lee is always at a significant disadvantage in numbers, and yet he seems to be victorious.
It’s to Lee and the fact that they won these victories under Lee, and that they took these chances, and everybody tried. And they always knew that they were outnumbered, and yet they were still winning. The closest the numbers had ever been at the seven days when the armies were about the same size, but after that, Lee is always at a significant disadvantage in numbers, and yet he seems to be victorious.
Lex Fridman
So Lee’s aggressiveness, like you’ve mentioned, produced also staggering casualties.
So Lee’s aggressiveness, like you’ve mentioned, produced also staggering casualties.
Gary Gallagher
Staggering casualties. He lost 13,000 men here, and Hooker about 17,500. A much higher proportion of Lee’s army than Hooker lost in his army. But this should’ve been a disaster for Lee. Hooker should have crushed Lee here. Absolutely should have crushed Lee, but he didn’t.
Staggering casualties. He lost 13,000 men here, and Hooker about 17,500. A much higher proportion of Lee’s army than Hooker lost in his army. But this should’ve been a disaster for Lee. Hooker should have crushed Lee here. Absolutely should have crushed Lee, but he didn’t.
Lex Fridman
So there’s two cases: Lee’s audacity being the South’s best hope of winning the war, but the other case is he was actually bleeding the South dry.
So there’s two cases: Lee’s audacity being the South’s best hope of winning the war, but the other case is he was actually bleeding the South dry.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, and historians have criticized him for not just being on the defensive all the time. I think Lee understood better than many of his critics now understand that the key was Northern civilian opinion. He said it more than once, “If we win victories, it will depress their morale. If their morale is depressed, the Democrats will do better. If the Democrats get into office, it’s good for the Confederacy.” And he also knew that he was … It’s a race between, “Am I gonna run out of men before they run out of morale-
Yes, and historians have criticized him for not just being on the defensive all the time. I think Lee understood better than many of his critics now understand that the key was Northern civilian opinion. He said it more than once, “If we win victories, it will depress their morale. If their morale is depressed, the Democrats will do better. If the Democrats get into office, it’s good for the Confederacy.” And he also knew that he was … It’s a race between, “Am I gonna run out of men before they run out of morale-
Gary Gallagher
… in the United States?” I think he understood that, and I think that was the best chance for the Confederacy to win. And in the end, I’m very happy to report, the Confederacy ran out of men before the Union ran out of morale. And so the war went the way it did. But I think Lee was very perceptive in that regard. He understood how important politically what happened militarily was.
… in the United States?” I think he understood that, and I think that was the best chance for the Confederacy to win. And in the end, I’m very happy to report, the Confederacy ran out of men before the Union ran out of morale. And so the war went the way it did. But I think Lee was very perceptive in that regard. He understood how important politically what happened militarily was.
Gary Gallagher
Much better understanding of that than a lot of people had at the time, and better understanding, I think, than a lot of historians have now. And this is a horrible time for the US because behind the lines, people are in ra- Democrats are unhappy with the Emancipation Proclamation. Just two months before this, Congress passed the Conscription Act. Democrats are very unhappy about that. They’re saying that Lincoln is a tyrant. He’s forcing people into a war that’s not the war they wanted to fight anyway. Union morale is very fragile. Morale, civilian morale at this point, and this makes it much, much worse. The draft riots in New York City, the first draft numbers were pulled in New York City in July.
Much better understanding of that than a lot of people had at the time, and better understanding, I think, than a lot of historians have now. And this is a horrible time for the US because behind the lines, people are in ra- Democrats are unhappy with the Emancipation Proclamation. Just two months before this, Congress passed the Conscription Act. Democrats are very unhappy about that. They’re saying that Lincoln is a tyrant. He’s forcing people into a war that’s not the war they wanted to fight anyway. Union morale is very fragile. Morale, civilian morale at this point, and this makes it much, much worse. The draft riots in New York City, the first draft numbers were pulled in New York City in July.
Gary Gallagher
The draft riots come right after Gettysburg, but that is symptomatic of what morale … Desertions went up in the Army of the Potomac after the Emancipation Proclamation.
The draft riots come right after Gettysburg, but that is symptomatic of what morale … Desertions went up in the Army of the Potomac after the Emancipation Proclamation.
Lex Fridman
So at this point, the Confederacy is arguably very close to winning the war.
So at this point, the Confederacy is arguably very close to winning the war.
Gary Gallagher
I think this is one of the more optimistic points for the Confederacy, is in the late spring and early summer of 1863. Yes, I do.
I think this is one of the more optimistic points for the Confederacy, is in the late spring and early summer of 1863. Yes, I do.
Lex Fridman
If Robert E. Lee is correct, in that it’s all about morale, which seems like a valid argument, then this feels like very close to breaking the morale of the Union.
If Robert E. Lee is correct, in that it’s all about morale, which seems like a valid argument, then this feels like very close to breaking the morale of the Union.
Gary Gallagher
In the Eastern Theater, I think it is, but in the Western Theater we have our boy Grant- … who’s operating against Vicksburg at this point. So there are two big campaigns kind of going on at this time, and Vicksburg is the other one.
In the Eastern Theater, I think it is, but in the Western Theater we have our boy Grant- … who’s operating against Vicksburg at this point. So there are two big campaigns kind of going on at this time, and Vicksburg is the other one.
The most important battle of the Civil War
Lex Fridman
Can you speak to Vicksburg? This is ’63.
Can you speak to Vicksburg? This is ’63.
Gary Gallagher
Yeah, this is ’63, and Vicksburg is the last major Confederate citadel on the Mississippi River. They’ve already lost New Orleans. They’ve lost … So they’ve lost the river. It’s not a Confederate river anymore. But they still have a strong point at Vicksburg, and another one at Port Hudson in Northern Louisiana. Grant has been operating against Vicksburg since the winter of ’62, and he’s finally, through a series of trial and errors and failures, he’s finally found a way that he thinks he can get to the city. He takes great risks. He crosses the Mississippi River after having the Union Navy run past all the batteries, the artillery batteries there at Vicksburg, and he invests the city from the east.
Yeah, this is ’63, and Vicksburg is the last major Confederate citadel on the Mississippi River. They’ve already lost New Orleans. They’ve lost … So they’ve lost the river. It’s not a Confederate river anymore. But they still have a strong point at Vicksburg, and another one at Port Hudson in Northern Louisiana. Grant has been operating against Vicksburg since the winter of ’62, and he’s finally, through a series of trial and errors and failures, he’s finally found a way that he thinks he can get to the city. He takes great risks. He crosses the Mississippi River after having the Union Navy run past all the batteries, the artillery batteries there at Vicksburg, and he invests the city from the east.
Gary Gallagher
He’s laying siege to Vicksburg while he’s just getting his campaign to do that started when Hooker is at Chancellorsville. In May, he invests the city and begins a siege that will end just as the Battle of Gettysburg ends, and it’s, it’s, it’s one of the most impressive campaigns in US military history, Grant’s campaign against Vicksburg. Cuts loose from his supply lines. Nobody understands what he’s doing. Sherman doesn’t get what he’s doing. Lincoln doesn’t get what he’s doing. And in the end they go, “Oh, that’s what you were doing.” And it worked. And in the end, he captures Vicksburg, which surrenders on July 4th, 1863.
He’s laying siege to Vicksburg while he’s just getting his campaign to do that started when Hooker is at Chancellorsville. In May, he invests the city and begins a siege that will end just as the Battle of Gettysburg ends, and it’s, it’s, it’s one of the most impressive campaigns in US military history, Grant’s campaign against Vicksburg. Cuts loose from his supply lines. Nobody understands what he’s doing. Sherman doesn’t get what he’s doing. Lincoln doesn’t get what he’s doing. And in the end they go, “Oh, that’s what you were doing.” And it worked. And in the end, he captures Vicksburg, which surrenders on July 4th, 1863.
Gary Gallagher
And if you don’t think that a kind of religious people didn’t read divine intervention into catching, having that happen on July 4th, 1863, you would be incorrect. That’s the same day that Lee retreated from Gettysburg. What? Really? God’s not putting a thumb on the scales here? Huge victories in the West, huge victory in the East on the anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.
And if you don’t think that a kind of religious people didn’t read divine intervention into catching, having that happen on July 4th, 1863, you would be incorrect. That’s the same day that Lee retreated from Gettysburg. What? Really? God’s not putting a thumb on the scales here? Huge victories in the West, huge victory in the East on the anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.
Lex Fridman
Well, that takes us to Gettysburg.
Well, that takes us to Gettysburg.
Gary Gallagher
Here we are at Gettysburg.
Here we are at Gettysburg.
Lex Fridman
Here we go.
Here we go.
Gary Gallagher
Which everybody knows, Lex, is the turning point of the Civil War.
Which everybody knows, Lex, is the turning point of the Civil War.
Lex Fridman
Or is it? Okay.
Or is it? Okay.
Gary Gallagher
No.
No.
Lex Fridman
All right.
All right.
Gary Gallagher
Short answer.
Short answer.
Lex Fridman
Well, that’s first … Before we analyze its role as a turning point or not-
Well, that’s first … Before we analyze its role as a turning point or not-
Gary Gallagher
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman
… what is Gettysburg? July 1863.
… what is Gettysburg? July 1863.
Gary Gallagher
Okay.
Okay.
Lex Fridman
Walk me through the three days of Gettysburg.
Walk me through the three days of Gettysburg.
Gary Gallagher
So Joe Hooker retreats across the Rappahannock. Lee is frustrated because he hasn’t dealt more damage to Hooker, and this is what he decides to do. He decides to move north for a second time. His army is strengthened. He builds it up to 75,000. This is his army at its absolute apogee as he gets ready to go north. It’s confident. It’s well-supplied, well-led. And so they head north second week in June, and here’s what his goal is. He has two main goals.
So Joe Hooker retreats across the Rappahannock. Lee is frustrated because he hasn’t dealt more damage to Hooker, and this is what he decides to do. He decides to move north for a second time. His army is strengthened. He builds it up to 75,000. This is his army at its absolute apogee as he gets ready to go north. It’s confident. It’s well-supplied, well-led. And so they head north second week in June, and here’s what his goal is. He has two main goals.
Gary Gallagher
He wants to take the war out of Virginia so that the agricultural sector isn’t subject to the presence of the army, so to let agriculture recover a little, and he wants to provision his army off the rich Cumberland Valley in Pennsylvania, siphon fodder and food and animals while he’s north of the Potomac, and he wants to stay up there for a long time to keep the war out of Virginia. He doesn’t wanna– He has no… The movie Gettysburg, he says he wants to capture Washington. No, he doesn’t wanna capture Washington. He knows it’s too strong. He has no idea of doing that, but he knows he’ll pull the Union Army after him and simply reorient the war, and he knows it’ll be bad politically for Lincoln-
He wants to take the war out of Virginia so that the agricultural sector isn’t subject to the presence of the army, so to let agriculture recover a little, and he wants to provision his army off the rich Cumberland Valley in Pennsylvania, siphon fodder and food and animals while he’s north of the Potomac, and he wants to stay up there for a long time to keep the war out of Virginia. He doesn’t wanna– He has no… The movie Gettysburg, he says he wants to capture Washington. No, he doesn’t wanna capture Washington. He knows it’s too strong. He has no idea of doing that, but he knows he’ll pull the Union Army after him and simply reorient the war, and he knows it’ll be bad politically for Lincoln-
Gary Gallagher
… if he’s actually operating in the United States. So off he goes to the north. He gets north of the river. His cavalry under Jeb Stuart is not doing its job because poor Jeb, who is a very good cavalryman but has a sort of adolescent streak where he has to be praised all the time, he fights the biggest cavalry battle of the war near Culpeper, Virginia, Battle of Brandy Station on June the 9th, and he almost loses, and it hurts his little feelings. And so he decides that he needs to do something dramatic so the newspapers will love him again. And he decides to ride all the way around the Army of the Potomac, which he did when McClellan was in command. It’s easier to do it when McClellan’s in command ’cause he’s never moving. He decides he’ll do it again here.
… if he’s actually operating in the United States. So off he goes to the north. He gets north of the river. His cavalry under Jeb Stuart is not doing its job because poor Jeb, who is a very good cavalryman but has a sort of adolescent streak where he has to be praised all the time, he fights the biggest cavalry battle of the war near Culpeper, Virginia, Battle of Brandy Station on June the 9th, and he almost loses, and it hurts his little feelings. And so he decides that he needs to do something dramatic so the newspapers will love him again. And he decides to ride all the way around the Army of the Potomac, which he did when McClellan was in command. It’s easier to do it when McClellan’s in command ’cause he’s never moving. He decides he’ll do it again here.
Gary Gallagher
And just as he gets east of the Army of the Potomac, the Army of the Potomac starts to move north, and so Stuart is trapped with… and he can’t communicate with Lee. So Lee doesn’t know what’s going on ’cause his cavalry isn’t doing its job. He spreads his army across southern Pennsylvania and then finds out from a sort of civilian spy, guy named Harrison, that the Army of the Potomac is actually following him and is much closer, and Lee at the end of June orders his army to concentrate near Gettysburg and not to bring on a battle, and they concentrate. Most of them come together. There’s a little clash on June the 30th, but on July the 1st, the armies make contact to the west of Gettysburg in, in a meeting engagement and more troops coming on each side.
And just as he gets east of the Army of the Potomac, the Army of the Potomac starts to move north, and so Stuart is trapped with… and he can’t communicate with Lee. So Lee doesn’t know what’s going on ’cause his cavalry isn’t doing its job. He spreads his army across southern Pennsylvania and then finds out from a sort of civilian spy, guy named Harrison, that the Army of the Potomac is actually following him and is much closer, and Lee at the end of June orders his army to concentrate near Gettysburg and not to bring on a battle, and they concentrate. Most of them come together. There’s a little clash on June the 30th, but on July the 1st, the armies make contact to the west of Gettysburg in, in a meeting engagement and more troops coming on each side.
Gary Gallagher
It builds into what turns into the three-day biggest battle of the Civil War. It’s not something Lee had planned and it wouldn’t have happened if his cavalry had been doing its job, but they weren’t, and so here they come and there’s a battle that goes for three days. Lee has the– He takes the tactical aggressive every day. He does the attacking. The Federals do the defending. Lee’s army’s 75,000. The other army’s about 85,000, 88,000. And famous terrain, Little Round Top, Round Top, Devil’s Den, the Peach Orchard, all these famous places, and it ends on the third day. Lee comes close on the second day, a huge victory for the Confederates on the first day.
It builds into what turns into the three-day biggest battle of the Civil War. It’s not something Lee had planned and it wouldn’t have happened if his cavalry had been doing its job, but they weren’t, and so here they come and there’s a battle that goes for three days. Lee has the– He takes the tactical aggressive every day. He does the attacking. The Federals do the defending. Lee’s army’s 75,000. The other army’s about 85,000, 88,000. And famous terrain, Little Round Top, Round Top, Devil’s Den, the Peach Orchard, all these famous places, and it ends on the third day. Lee comes close on the second day, a huge victory for the Confederates on the first day.
Gary Gallagher
Third day, Lee’s frustrated and he just decides to let his infantry take care of it for him and the result is what most people call Pickett’s Charge. Pickett was just a part of the charge. 12 and a half thousand infantry in a direct assault and it fails completely and he retreats the next day. I think you can draw a straight line between May the 3rd at Chancellorsville when his infantry fought their way together and July the 3rd at Gettysburg. He admits it too as he writes letters to both his wife and Jefferson Davis saying, “I asked too much of my infantry. No fault is on them. All the fault is on me.” And he was right. All the fault was on him. He and Grant are alike that way. They accept responsibility, not like McClellan.
Third day, Lee’s frustrated and he just decides to let his infantry take care of it for him and the result is what most people call Pickett’s Charge. Pickett was just a part of the charge. 12 and a half thousand infantry in a direct assault and it fails completely and he retreats the next day. I think you can draw a straight line between May the 3rd at Chancellorsville when his infantry fought their way together and July the 3rd at Gettysburg. He admits it too as he writes letters to both his wife and Jefferson Davis saying, “I asked too much of my infantry. No fault is on them. All the fault is on me.” And he was right. All the fault was on him. He and Grant are alike that way. They accept responsibility, not like McClellan.
Gary Gallagher
His first reaction is, “It’s not my fault,” to pick a general at random who did this. “It’s not my fault. It must be somebody else’s fault.” Lee took responsibility. He expected too much from his infantry. His subordinates had not been doing that good a job and they lost the biggest battle of the war.
His first reaction is, “It’s not my fault,” to pick a general at random who did this. “It’s not my fault. It must be somebody else’s fault.” Lee took responsibility. He expected too much from his infantry. His subordinates had not been doing that good a job and they lost the biggest battle of the war.
Lex Fridman
What was the military mistake there? What could Robert E. Lee done differently?
What was the military mistake there? What could Robert E. Lee done differently?
Gary Gallagher
I think what he could have done, the most perceptive Confederate soldier who wrote about the war was a guy named Edward Porter Alexander who was the most gifted artillerist. He’s in Lee’s army. He wrote after the war, Lee won a great victory on July 1st at Gettysburg, smashed two Union infantry corps, had a very strong position. He should’ve just hunkered down and said, “Okay, attack me. See what you can do.” He didn’t do that. He almost certainly would’ve won the battle if he had done that, but he, his, this, this is where his aggressiveness gets him in trouble. He was pushing for a more aggressive, more decisive outcome right then and he ended up costing… He lost probably 25,000 men at Getty, at least a third of his army.
I think what he could have done, the most perceptive Confederate soldier who wrote about the war was a guy named Edward Porter Alexander who was the most gifted artillerist. He’s in Lee’s army. He wrote after the war, Lee won a great victory on July 1st at Gettysburg, smashed two Union infantry corps, had a very strong position. He should’ve just hunkered down and said, “Okay, attack me. See what you can do.” He didn’t do that. He almost certainly would’ve won the battle if he had done that, but he, his, this, this is where his aggressiveness gets him in trouble. He was pushing for a more aggressive, more decisive outcome right then and he ended up costing… He lost probably 25,000 men at Getty, at least a third of his army.
Gary Gallagher
More than that, he went across the river, went across the Potomac with 52 generals in his army.
More than that, he went across the river, went across the Potomac with 52 generals in his army.
Gary Gallagher
17 of them became casualties. He lost a third of his entire corps of generals killed, wounded, or captured in the Gettysburg Campaign. It’s a really bloody, costly campaign for him and he ends up retreating back into Virginia. It comes it, and Lincoln is at first very happy about it. There’s another, yet another general in command on the Union side. Hooker’s gone. A guy named George Meade is in and Meade does what McClellan did after Antietam. He lets Lee get away, doesn’t really harass him, and Lincoln is beside himself with disappointment. He writes a letter to Meade, thanks him for his great victory and then says, “You’ve let him get away. The war is gonna continue indefinitely,” says Lincoln. Then he doesn’t send the letter to…
17 of them became casualties. He lost a third of his entire corps of generals killed, wounded, or captured in the Gettysburg Campaign. It’s a really bloody, costly campaign for him and he ends up retreating back into Virginia. It comes it, and Lincoln is at first very happy about it. There’s another, yet another general in command on the Union side. Hooker’s gone. A guy named George Meade is in and Meade does what McClellan did after Antietam. He lets Lee get away, doesn’t really harass him, and Lincoln is beside himself with disappointment. He writes a letter to Meade, thanks him for his great victory and then says, “You’ve let him get away. The war is gonna continue indefinitely,” says Lincoln. Then he doesn’t send the letter to…
Gary Gallagher
He writes it but doesn’t send it to Meade, but he gets another guy to tell Meade what’s in it, so he-
He writes it but doesn’t send it to Meade, but he gets another guy to tell Meade what’s in it, so he-
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gary Gallagher
… a guy named Halleck who’s the general in chief at that point. Lincoln certainly did not think Gettysburg was the great turning point of the war. He probably thought it should’ve been, but it wasn’t because Lee got away with his army intact. And after the battle, Lee said, “Well, you’ll s- ” He said, “They lost a lot too, and they’re gonna be … There’s not gonna be another big battle.” He said, “They’ll be as quiet as a sucking dove- … for six months.” And in fact, it’s 10 months before there’s another big battle in- … the Eastern Theater, till Grant gets there.
… a guy named Halleck who’s the general in chief at that point. Lincoln certainly did not think Gettysburg was the great turning point of the war. He probably thought it should’ve been, but it wasn’t because Lee got away with his army intact. And after the battle, Lee said, “Well, you’ll s- ” He said, “They lost a lot too, and they’re gonna be … There’s not gonna be another big battle.” He said, “They’ll be as quiet as a sucking dove- … for six months.” And in fact, it’s 10 months before there’s another big battle in- … the Eastern Theater, till Grant gets there.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, so how does Grant come from the, to change the theater from the Western Theater into the Eastern?
Yeah, so how does Grant come from the, to change the theater from the Western Theater into the Eastern?
Gary Gallagher
So Gettysburg’s a really important victory for the United States.
So Gettysburg’s a really important victory for the United States.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, but it’s not the turning point.
Yeah, but it’s not the turning point.
Gary Gallagher
No, and it’s not as important as Vicksburg, because Lee gets away. Grant captured an entire rebel army at Vicksburg. Pemberton’s whole army surrendered, and that’s the second time Grant had forced an army to surrender. He forced one at Fort Donelson back in February of 1862. His victory is, is … There’s, there are no, no equivocations about it. It’s a victory. The Mississippi is now all controlled by the United States Navy, but Lee got away, so that puts a little cloud over Gettysburg at the time. Grant wins one more victory in the West after this. He wins the Battle of Chattanooga in late 1863.
No, and it’s not as important as Vicksburg, because Lee gets away. Grant captured an entire rebel army at Vicksburg. Pemberton’s whole army surrendered, and that’s the second time Grant had forced an army to surrender. He forced one at Fort Donelson back in February of 1862. His victory is, is … There’s, there are no, no equivocations about it. It’s a victory. The Mississippi is now all controlled by the United States Navy, but Lee got away, so that puts a little cloud over Gettysburg at the time. Grant wins one more victory in the West after this. He wins the Battle of Chattanooga in late 1863.
Gary Gallagher
And that then puts him in position for Lincoln to decide that he not only should be in charge of everything in the West, he should be general-in-chief, and that’s what brings Grant to the fore. And in March ’64, he’s now general-in-chief with the new rank of lieutenant general on his … He’s got three stars on his shoulders now instead of two.
And that then puts him in position for Lincoln to decide that he not only should be in charge of everything in the West, he should be general-in-chief, and that’s what brings Grant to the fore. And in March ’64, he’s now general-in-chief with the new rank of lieutenant general on his … He’s got three stars on his shoulders now instead of two.
The final showdown of the Civil War – Grant vs Lee
Lex Fridman
And then where does that take us? That takes us to ’64 with the Overland Campaign. That story plus Atlanta, Sherman’s March.
And then where does that take us? That takes us to ’64 with the Overland Campaign. That story plus Atlanta, Sherman’s March.
Gary Gallagher
That sets up … Grant is now planning for how the whole war is gonna go. And he envisions five components. The two most important are he’s gonna move against Lee, and his plan is lock up with Lee, inflict the greatest possible damage on Lee, prevent Lee from sending reinforcements anywhere else, and if all goes well, Richmond would fall. But he’s not mainly interested in Richmond. He’s interested in Lee’s army, which is what Lincoln has been trying to get his generals to be interested in the whole time. Destroy Lee’s army, and of course Richmond falls.
That sets up … Grant is now planning for how the whole war is gonna go. And he envisions five components. The two most important are he’s gonna move against Lee, and his plan is lock up with Lee, inflict the greatest possible damage on Lee, prevent Lee from sending reinforcements anywhere else, and if all goes well, Richmond would fall. But he’s not mainly interested in Richmond. He’s interested in Lee’s army, which is what Lincoln has been trying to get his generals to be interested in the whole time. Destroy Lee’s army, and of course Richmond falls.
Lex Fridman
So how is he thinking about the clash with Lee? Grant versus Lee.
So how is he thinking about the clash with Lee? Grant versus Lee.
Gary Gallagher
Grant versus Lee is just confront him. And they’re still near Fredericksburg, where they, on the Rappahannock River frontier, engaged with him and what they ended up with was a period of six weeks of continuous combat that began with the Battle of the Wilderness on May the 5th and 6th. The old pattern in the Civil War, Lex, was you fight a battle, one side retreats. It might be weeks, might be months before you fight again. What happened here is Lee and Grant fought the Battle of the Wilderness. 12,000 Confederate casualties, 18,000 Union ca- 30,000 casualties at the Wilderness. They march for one day. They start another battle, Spotsylvania Court House.
Grant versus Lee is just confront him. And they’re still near Fredericksburg, where they, on the Rappahannock River frontier, engaged with him and what they ended up with was a period of six weeks of continuous combat that began with the Battle of the Wilderness on May the 5th and 6th. The old pattern in the Civil War, Lex, was you fight a battle, one side retreats. It might be weeks, might be months before you fight again. What happened here is Lee and Grant fought the Battle of the Wilderness. 12,000 Confederate casualties, 18,000 Union ca- 30,000 casualties at the Wilderness. They march for one day. They start another battle, Spotsylvania Court House.
Gary Gallagher
12,000 more Confederate casualties, 18,000 more Union casualties, so now you’ve had 60,000 casualties in two battles with no interval. That continues through May. Cold Harbor, they end up near Richmond at Cold Harbor in early June. Grant launches frontal assaults there. They come to nothing. His men are, many of them are butchered. The bottom line is that in the six-week campaign, Grant suffers 65,000 casualties, which is as big as Lee’s whole army had been. Lee suffers 35,000, which is a higher percentage of his army than Grant lost in, or about the same percentage, actually. But it is a kind of continuous campaign no one had seen before, and it shatters both armies. It eviscerates the officer corps in both armies. A lot of soldiers just break down.
12,000 more Confederate casualties, 18,000 more Union casualties, so now you’ve had 60,000 casualties in two battles with no interval. That continues through May. Cold Harbor, they end up near Richmond at Cold Harbor in early June. Grant launches frontal assaults there. They come to nothing. His men are, many of them are butchered. The bottom line is that in the six-week campaign, Grant suffers 65,000 casualties, which is as big as Lee’s whole army had been. Lee suffers 35,000, which is a higher percentage of his army than Grant lost in, or about the same percentage, actually. But it is a kind of continuous campaign no one had seen before, and it shatters both armies. It eviscerates the officer corps in both armies. A lot of soldiers just break down.
Gary Gallagher
We would talk about PTSD now probably. They just hadn’t been used to something like this.
We would talk about PTSD now probably. They just hadn’t been used to something like this.
Lex Fridman
And this kind of continuous warfare, that’s … We can attribute that to Grant.
And this kind of continuous warfare, that’s … We can attribute that to Grant.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, this is … And this is where the Grant the Butcher image comes in.
Yes, this is … And this is where the Grant the Butcher image comes in.
Lex Fridman
But also probably, as hard as it is to say, it’s an act of military genius, right?
But also probably, as hard as it is to say, it’s an act of military genius, right?
Gary Gallagher
Well, it’s … He’s doing what he wanted to do. He’s bleeding Lee’s army and at the same time pushing it back toward Richmond, and what it ends up in is the siege at Petersburg, Virginia, which is just south of Richmond and controls the communications into Richmond, and it’s a siege of actually Petersburg and Richmond, and that is the thing that Lee feared the most, and Grant had put him in exactly that position. But the perception behind the lines in the United States is endless casualties. Who’s winning? We can’t even tell who’s winning. We have these casualties, and so Union morale drops to its lowest point of the entire war in July and August 1864.
Well, it’s … He’s doing what he wanted to do. He’s bleeding Lee’s army and at the same time pushing it back toward Richmond, and what it ends up in is the siege at Petersburg, Virginia, which is just south of Richmond and controls the communications into Richmond, and it’s a siege of actually Petersburg and Richmond, and that is the thing that Lee feared the most, and Grant had put him in exactly that position. But the perception behind the lines in the United States is endless casualties. Who’s winning? We can’t even tell who’s winning. We have these casualties, and so Union morale drops to its lowest point of the entire war in July and August 1864.
Gary Gallagher
Because while this is going on, Sherman is moving against Atlanta, and he is taking his time, not fighting these big battles, but he’s not capturing Atlanta either. The whole summer goes by. Atlanta hasn’t fallen. Richmond hasn’t fallen. There’s an election coming up in the fall in the United States, and Lincoln decides … The morale gets so bad he calls his cabinet together in late August and makes them sign what’s been called the Blind Memorandum, and what the memorandum said is, “We’re not gonna be reelected, and we’re gonna have to win the war before the Democrats come in, because we know they won’t win the war.” Lincoln did not think they would win. That’s in August.
Because while this is going on, Sherman is moving against Atlanta, and he is taking his time, not fighting these big battles, but he’s not capturing Atlanta either. The whole summer goes by. Atlanta hasn’t fallen. Richmond hasn’t fallen. There’s an election coming up in the fall in the United States, and Lincoln decides … The morale gets so bad he calls his cabinet together in late August and makes them sign what’s been called the Blind Memorandum, and what the memorandum said is, “We’re not gonna be reelected, and we’re gonna have to win the war before the Democrats come in, because we know they won’t win the war.” Lincoln did not think they would win. That’s in August.
Gary Gallagher
And so I think that United States civilian morale, the lowest point of the war for the United States is in July and August 1864. And if we’d been able to stick our microphones in people’s faces and said, “Well, but what about Gettysburg? That was the turning point of the war,” they would’ve said, “What are you talking about?” “That was a year ago. This is now, and we’re not winning, and it’s not worth it, and we’re just about ready.” McClellan, incidentally, was the Democratic nominee for president that year, so he’s running against Lincoln.
And so I think that United States civilian morale, the lowest point of the war for the United States is in July and August 1864. And if we’d been able to stick our microphones in people’s faces and said, “Well, but what about Gettysburg? That was the turning point of the war,” they would’ve said, “What are you talking about?” “That was a year ago. This is now, and we’re not winning, and it’s not worth it, and we’re just about ready.” McClellan, incidentally, was the Democratic nominee for president that year, so he’s running against Lincoln.
Lex Fridman
So first of all, if Lincoln didn’t win, do you think-
So first of all, if Lincoln didn’t win, do you think-
Gary Gallagher
Well, we know it would’ve been good for the Confederates if Lincoln didn’t win, but just … McClellan still … It’s interesting. McClellan was running kind of against the Democratic platform. What the Democratic platform called for was basically negotiations, an armistice and then negotiations. And many people believed if they ever stop fighting, they’re not gonna start fighting again. And so some negotiated end to the war that might even yield a confederacy. McClellan, to his credit, and I hate to give him credit, at least said that he wasn’t up for that. He said, “We need to win the war, and then we’ll have negotiations.”
Well, we know it would’ve been good for the Confederates if Lincoln didn’t win, but just … McClellan still … It’s interesting. McClellan was running kind of against the Democratic platform. What the Democratic platform called for was basically negotiations, an armistice and then negotiations. And many people believed if they ever stop fighting, they’re not gonna start fighting again. And so some negotiated end to the war that might even yield a confederacy. McClellan, to his credit, and I hate to give him credit, at least said that he wasn’t up for that. He said, “We need to win the war, and then we’ll have negotiations.”
Gary Gallagher
But what’s clear is… And it would’ve been, would’ve been the end of emancipation. Because emancipation, what became the 13th Amendment had passed through the Senate in April of ’64, but the House voted against it. That doesn’t, isn’t gonna happen till early ’65.
But what’s clear is… And it would’ve been, would’ve been the end of emancipation. Because emancipation, what became the 13th Amendment had passed through the Senate in April of ’64, but the House voted against it. That doesn’t, isn’t gonna happen till early ’65.
Lex Fridman
How close was it that Lincoln won/lost?
How close was it that Lincoln won/lost?
Gary Gallagher
Well, Lincoln won. Grant didn’t reelect Lincoln, ’cause he, Grant against Lee would not reelect Lincoln. But other Grants, other things that Grant, part of his overall plan as general-in-chief, Sherman captured Atlanta- … in early September. And that just changed everything.
Well, Lincoln won. Grant didn’t reelect Lincoln, ’cause he, Grant against Lee would not reelect Lincoln. But other Grants, other things that Grant, part of his overall plan as general-in-chief, Sherman captured Atlanta- … in early September. And that just changed everything.
Lex Fridman
That was the real turning point.
That was the real turning point.
Gary Gallagher
That was a huge military turning point, and then on the heels of that, Philip Sheridan won a series of crushing victories in the Shenandoah Valley, the last of which came just before the election, and it was Sherman, and to a lesser degree Sheridan, that reelected Lincoln, and not just Lincoln, but huge Republican majorities- … in both the House and the Senate in 1864.
That was a huge military turning point, and then on the heels of that, Philip Sheridan won a series of crushing victories in the Shenandoah Valley, the last of which came just before the election, and it was Sherman, and to a lesser degree Sheridan, that reelected Lincoln, and not just Lincoln, but huge Republican majorities- … in both the House and the Senate in 1864.
Lex Fridman
And then the thing that broke the back of the Confederacy, Sherman’s March, 60,000 men across Georgia to the sea, burning the infrastructure.
And then the thing that broke the back of the Confederacy, Sherman’s March, 60,000 men across Georgia to the sea, burning the infrastructure.
Gary Gallagher
Yes, as he said, “I’m gonna go across and make Georgia howl,” is how he put it. He added a psychological twist. What Grant envisioned doing, and Sheridan actually did in the Shenandoah Valley before Sherman did it in Georgia, is go into an agriculturally productive area, burn the mills, kill the livestock, destroy the crops, lay waste to it so that it can’t be a logistical support of the Confederacy anymore. Sheridan did it in the Shenandoah Valley, and then Sherman did it in Georgia.
Yes, as he said, “I’m gonna go across and make Georgia howl,” is how he put it. He added a psychological twist. What Grant envisioned doing, and Sheridan actually did in the Shenandoah Valley before Sherman did it in Georgia, is go into an agriculturally productive area, burn the mills, kill the livestock, destroy the crops, lay waste to it so that it can’t be a logistical support of the Confederacy anymore. Sheridan did it in the Shenandoah Valley, and then Sherman did it in Georgia.
Gary Gallagher
But Sherman said, “But I’m also going to break them psychologically.” That’s what he said, that, “I’m gonna show them that my army can go wherever it wants to go, whenever it wants to go, and there’s nothing Jefferson Davis can do about it.” He said, “When they decide that, they’ll give up.” Didn’t exactly work that way, but that’s what he—so he marched first to Savannah, and then the final campaign for Sherman was up through the Carolinas. He went up through South Carolina and into North Carolina. And Grant laid siege to Lee, and the siege lasted nine months, the Siege of Petersburg in Richmond, and finally Grant broke Lee’s lines on April 1st, 1865. Lee started a retreat. Grant just gave him no pause, and he ran him to ground at Appomattox after about a week, and Lee surrendered.
But Sherman said, “But I’m also going to break them psychologically.” That’s what he said, that, “I’m gonna show them that my army can go wherever it wants to go, whenever it wants to go, and there’s nothing Jefferson Davis can do about it.” He said, “When they decide that, they’ll give up.” Didn’t exactly work that way, but that’s what he—so he marched first to Savannah, and then the final campaign for Sherman was up through the Carolinas. He went up through South Carolina and into North Carolina. And Grant laid siege to Lee, and the siege lasted nine months, the Siege of Petersburg in Richmond, and finally Grant broke Lee’s lines on April 1st, 1865. Lee started a retreat. Grant just gave him no pause, and he ran him to ground at Appomattox after about a week, and Lee surrendered.
Lex Fridman
What do we know about the relationship between the two men?
What do we know about the relationship between the two men?
Gary Gallagher
Grant and Lee? Well, it’s really interesting. I mean, they basically operated in totally different worlds. They were both in the war with Mexico, but they weren’t with each other in Mexico, and they had some awkward kinda small talk at Appomattox before they got down to business. One said he remembered the other one, the other one said he didn’t remember him at all, and it’s so… But Grant was very generous. He gave 25,000 rations to Lee’s army to survive. Lee began the retreat with about 60,000 men, only fewer than 30,000—his army disintegrated in a week. He only surrendered 28,000 at Appomattox. They were allowed to sign a parole and go home.
Grant and Lee? Well, it’s really interesting. I mean, they basically operated in totally different worlds. They were both in the war with Mexico, but they weren’t with each other in Mexico, and they had some awkward kinda small talk at Appomattox before they got down to business. One said he remembered the other one, the other one said he didn’t remember him at all, and it’s so… But Grant was very generous. He gave 25,000 rations to Lee’s army to survive. Lee began the retreat with about 60,000 men, only fewer than 30,000—his army disintegrated in a week. He only surrendered 28,000 at Appomattox. They were allowed to sign a parole and go home.
Lex Fridman
But at the peak of, you know, Grant versus Lee, surely they were thinking about each other.
But at the peak of, you know, Grant versus Lee, surely they were thinking about each other.
Gary Gallagher
They were, and I’ve always found this interesting. They tended to be very generous toward other opponents. But Grant pretended that Lee wasn’t the best opponent he ever faced. And Lee pretended that Grant wasn’t the best opponent he ever faced, and it’s ludicrous that they would’ve actually thought that. They clearly found out that that wasn’t true.
They were, and I’ve always found this interesting. They tended to be very generous toward other opponents. But Grant pretended that Lee wasn’t the best opponent he ever faced. And Lee pretended that Grant wasn’t the best opponent he ever faced, and it’s ludicrous that they would’ve actually thought that. They clearly found out that that wasn’t true.
Lex Fridman
It’s interesting when people do that. I sometimes, like, wonder, how is it possible… There’s just a million examples of this. For example, Hitler just completely dismissed America as a military force.
It’s interesting when people do that. I sometimes, like, wonder, how is it possible… There’s just a million examples of this. For example, Hitler just completely dismissed America as a military force.
Gary Gallagher
Oh, it’s nothing, they’re a bunch of… Yes, they’re soft. They’ll never do anything.
Oh, it’s nothing, they’re a bunch of… Yes, they’re soft. They’ll never do anything.
Lex Fridman
I have to say, it’s probably some silly psychological things. You make up your mind for some stupid reason.
I have to say, it’s probably some silly psychological things. You make up your mind for some stupid reason.
Gary Gallagher
And then you stick to it.
And then you stick to it.
Lex Fridman
And you stick to it, and you almost, like, against… I mean, with a lot of great generals and leaders, you have to be stubborn in the face of facts sometimes-
And you stick to it, and you almost, like, against… I mean, with a lot of great generals and leaders, you have to be stubborn in the face of facts sometimes-
Gary Gallagher
You do, yeah
You do, yeah
Lex Fridman
… because, like, all the rational people will tell you, you get this with Napoleon, like, “What are you doing?” Like, the generals, the wise, smart people around you will say, “Don’t do this.”
… because, like, all the rational people will tell you, you get this with Napoleon, like, “What are you doing?” Like, the generals, the wise, smart people around you will say, “Don’t do this.”
Gary Gallagher
Grant’s a perfect example of that, Lex, at Vicksburg, where his problem was to get his army on the same side of the river as the Confederates, where he could come against Vicksburg, and the only way to do it was have the Union Navy run past—and he said to do it. “No, don’t do it,” said the Navy. “No, don’t. No. Sherman, no. Don’t…” Everybody said no, and Grant said, “Do it.” And it worked.
Grant’s a perfect example of that, Lex, at Vicksburg, where his problem was to get his army on the same side of the river as the Confederates, where he could come against Vicksburg, and the only way to do it was have the Union Navy run past—and he said to do it. “No, don’t do it,” said the Navy. “No, don’t. No. Sherman, no. Don’t…” Everybody said no, and Grant said, “Do it.” And it worked.
Lex Fridman
I mean, it has to do with the, with I guess you’ve criticized once or twice M- this guy named McClellan.
I mean, it has to do with the, with I guess you’ve criticized once or twice M- this guy named McClellan.
Gary Gallagher
I did, once or twice.
I did, once or twice.
Lex Fridman
That, you know, you do have to take risk. You have to take risk in order-
That, you know, you do have to take risk. You have to take risk in order-
Gary Gallagher
You do
You do
Lex Fridman
… to win battles.
… to win battles.
Gary Gallagher
And I’ll finish– I can’t resist getting one more shot. Lee is often quoted as saying that McClellan was the most talented general he ever faced.
And I’ll finish– I can’t resist getting one more shot. Lee is often quoted as saying that McClellan was the most talented general he ever faced.
Lex Fridman
Really? Hmm.
Really? Hmm.
Gary Gallagher
Yeah, but that’s, but what he actually said, and the quote started with his nephew, Fitzhugh Lee, who wrote it in a book after the war. Lee called McClellan the most intellectual General he ever faced. And I think that is not a compliment. I think Lee is saying, “Yeah, he’s an intellectual. He thinks about this, he thinks about … He never does anything.” “He thinks about things.” So I think it’s actually a slight, not a compliment to McClellan– I really do. Because he couldn’t have possibly thought he was the most talented one that he faced.
Yeah, but that’s, but what he actually said, and the quote started with his nephew, Fitzhugh Lee, who wrote it in a book after the war. Lee called McClellan the most intellectual General he ever faced. And I think that is not a compliment. I think Lee is saying, “Yeah, he’s an intellectual. He thinks about this, he thinks about … He never does anything.” “He thinks about things.” So I think it’s actually a slight, not a compliment to McClellan– I really do. Because he couldn’t have possibly thought he was the most talented one that he faced.
Lex Fridman
I think it’s a polite wink and nod to criticize.
I think it’s a polite wink and nod to criticize.
Gary Gallagher
It’s a wink and nod.
It’s a wink and nod.
Lex Fridman
All right. How does the war end? So clearly there’s the turning point with Atlanta and Sherman’s March.
All right. How does the war end? So clearly there’s the turning point with Atlanta and Sherman’s March.
Gary Gallagher
And the election of ’64 is the– that drives the dagger into … I mean, there’s no question but that the war will be pushed to the end because Lincoln and Grant are in charge and they are not gonna take their foot off the-
And the election of ’64 is the– that drives the dagger into … I mean, there’s no question but that the war will be pushed to the end because Lincoln and Grant are in charge and they are not gonna take their foot off the-
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
Gary Gallagher
… the pedal. They’re gonna push it. So it’s a question of time. It drags on, still drags on another six months. Lee surrenders on April 9th. They lay down their arms on April 12th. There are still tens of thousands of Confederate soldiers under arms in different places, but it’s a measure of how important Lee and his army were that for everybody, virtually on both sides, that’s the end of the war.
… the pedal. They’re gonna push it. So it’s a question of time. It drags on, still drags on another six months. Lee surrenders on April 9th. They lay down their arms on April 12th. There are still tens of thousands of Confederate soldiers under arms in different places, but it’s a measure of how important Lee and his army were that for everybody, virtually on both sides, that’s the end of the war.
Gary Gallagher
Lee surrendered. There’s no reason to push this any farther, and other surrenders came pretty quickly. Jefferson Davis was one of the few people who didn’t figure that out. He thought something was still possible, but it wasn’t. That was the end of the war. The final surrenders are over in June, and that’s it, and everybody gets the same terms that Grant offered to Lee. His friend Sherman tried to do more, and they had to rein Sherman in and say, “You can’t … No. You’re, you’re a general, not a politician. You can’t do this.”
Lee surrendered. There’s no reason to push this any farther, and other surrenders came pretty quickly. Jefferson Davis was one of the few people who didn’t figure that out. He thought something was still possible, but it wasn’t. That was the end of the war. The final surrenders are over in June, and that’s it, and everybody gets the same terms that Grant offered to Lee. His friend Sherman tried to do more, and they had to rein Sherman in and say, “You can’t … No. You’re, you’re a general, not a politician. You can’t do this.”
Lex Fridman
So can we talk about April 9th? I mean, this is a really important moment of what Grant did in terms of how he treated the opposing army.
So can we talk about April 9th? I mean, this is a really important moment of what Grant did in terms of how he treated the opposing army.
Gary Gallagher
As I said earlier, he treated him the way that he knew that Lincoln wanted them treated and, and it may be that Grant thought exactly the same thing. But I think this is a measure of how Grant was a very … He’s a soldier who knew his place. He has civilian superiors. Other generals didn’t act that way. I know I’m beating up on McClellan. He’s one. Joseph Johnston on the Confederate side is one. They didn’t really defer to their civilian superiors. US Grant did, and he … And this is one of those cases. He sent the rations. He didn’t know that Confederates supplied their own horses. If you’re a Confederate cavalryman, the government didn’t buy a horse for you. You had to supply your horse, and if a horse got killed, you had to buy another one or they’d make you an infantryman.
As I said earlier, he treated him the way that he knew that Lincoln wanted them treated and, and it may be that Grant thought exactly the same thing. But I think this is a measure of how Grant was a very … He’s a soldier who knew his place. He has civilian superiors. Other generals didn’t act that way. I know I’m beating up on McClellan. He’s one. Joseph Johnston on the Confederate side is one. They didn’t really defer to their civilian superiors. US Grant did, and he … And this is one of those cases. He sent the rations. He didn’t know that Confederates supplied their own horses. If you’re a Confederate cavalryman, the government didn’t buy a horse for you. You had to supply your horse, and if a horse got killed, you had to buy another one or they’d make you an infantryman.
Gary Gallagher
When Grant found that out, he let them take their horses home with them. He said they’ll need them for the planting and so forth. He did everything in a generous way that you could reasonably think might happen in a situation like … It’s still an unconditional surrender. You are surrendering. You’re going home. You’re not an army anymore. But nobody’s going to prisoner of war camps. Nobody’s doing those things. You lay your arms down, you lay your flags down, and you lay your ammunition down, but that’s it.
When Grant found that out, he let them take their horses home with them. He said they’ll need them for the planting and so forth. He did everything in a generous way that you could reasonably think might happen in a situation like … It’s still an unconditional surrender. You are surrendering. You’re going home. You’re not an army anymore. But nobody’s going to prisoner of war camps. Nobody’s doing those things. You lay your arms down, you lay your flags down, and you lay your ammunition down, but that’s it.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, but there’s certain symbolic actions like this that can lay the groundwork for long-term peace.
Yeah, but there’s certain symbolic actions like this that can lay the groundwork for long-term peace.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. He didn’t demand that Lee give him his sword. He didn’t do that, none of those kinds of things that you could have done.
Yes. He didn’t demand that Lee give him his sword. He didn’t do that, none of those kinds of things that you could have done.
Lex Fridman
Sorry to linger on it, but there’s certain elements of humiliation that prevent long-term peace. I have to go back to Hitler and what Germany experienced at the end of World War I.
Sorry to linger on it, but there’s certain elements of humiliation that prevent long-term peace. I have to go back to Hitler and what Germany experienced at the end of World War I.
Gary Gallagher
You mean Versailles, the terms from Versailles. No question about it.
You mean Versailles, the terms from Versailles. No question about it.
Lex Fridman
And some of it is economic, some of it is geopolitics, but some of it is just on a basic human level humiliation. And people are just not good with humiliation. They remember.
And some of it is economic, some of it is geopolitics, but some of it is just on a basic human level humiliation. And people are just not good with humiliation. They remember.
Gary Gallagher
No, and they can turn that around into something you don’t want it to be to get back national pride. But Lincoln’s bottom line was the point is to put the nation back together and you … The good way to start that is not by imprisoning tens of thousands of Confederate soldiers. That’s not the way to do it. Send them home. Make them accept the terms, but then send them home and leave them alone. The president wanted to go after Lincoln’s death. Andrew Johnson wanted to go after Lee, and Grant said, “I’ll resign if you do … ” ‘Cause I … His term … We extended the terms. He’s abiding by the terms. You can’t change the rules here.
No, and they can turn that around into something you don’t want it to be to get back national pride. But Lincoln’s bottom line was the point is to put the nation back together and you … The good way to start that is not by imprisoning tens of thousands of Confederate soldiers. That’s not the way to do it. Send them home. Make them accept the terms, but then send them home and leave them alone. The president wanted to go after Lincoln’s death. Andrew Johnson wanted to go after Lee, and Grant said, “I’ll resign if you do … ” ‘Cause I … His term … We extended the terms. He’s abiding by the terms. You can’t change the rules here.
Lex Fridman
But by the way, like it should be said, is that that’s not easy to do. You have just fought an extremely bloody-
But by the way, like it should be said, is that that’s not easy to do. You have just fought an extremely bloody-
Gary Gallagher
Oh
Oh
Lex Fridman
… battle. There’s hatred.
… battle. There’s hatred.
Gary Gallagher
There were lots of people who wanted Davis to swing and Lee to swing. “Kill them. Execute the rebels. They’re rebels and traitors who almost destroyed the nation. Why are you being so easy on them?” Thaddeus Stevens was on board that train. Lots of radical Republicans were. “You need to punish them for what … You haven’t punished them enough. You’re not punishing them. Yes, you took slavery away from them, but that’s not enough. They should be punished more for what they did.” “Confiscate their lands. Take their wealth away from them.”
There were lots of people who wanted Davis to swing and Lee to swing. “Kill them. Execute the rebels. They’re rebels and traitors who almost destroyed the nation. Why are you being so easy on them?” Thaddeus Stevens was on board that train. Lots of radical Republicans were. “You need to punish them for what … You haven’t punished them enough. You’re not punishing them. Yes, you took slavery away from them, but that’s not enough. They should be punished more for what they did.” “Confiscate their lands. Take their wealth away from them.”
Lex Fridman
So what happened next in terms of reconciliation?
So what happened next in terms of reconciliation?
Gary Gallagher
Well, Lincoln got assassinated just a few days after-
Well, Lincoln got assassinated just a few days after-
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
Gary Gallagher
… Lee’s troops laid down their arms.
… Lee’s troops laid down their arms.
Lex Fridman
Can you talk to the assassination? He was shot five days after the surrender, right?
Can you talk to the assassination? He was shot five days after the surrender, right?
Gary Gallagher
Yes, he was.
Yes, he was.
Lex Fridman
So who was Booth? Who was John Wilkes Booth? Why did he assassinate Lincoln, and what impact did that have?
So who was Booth? Who was John Wilkes Booth? Why did he assassinate Lincoln, and what impact did that have?
Gary Gallagher
Well, he was the youngest of the most famous acting family in the United States. Junius Brutus Booth and Edwin Booth, his father and older brother, were very famous actors, and he was a very successful actor, too, John Wilkes Booth was. He was good at jumping around the stage, and he was very athletic. And an ardent pro-Confederate.
Well, he was the youngest of the most famous acting family in the United States. Junius Brutus Booth and Edwin Booth, his father and older brother, were very famous actors, and he was a very successful actor, too, John Wilkes Booth was. He was good at jumping around the stage, and he was very athletic. And an ardent pro-Confederate.
Lex Fridman
Right. That’s the more important- … Aspect
Right. That’s the more important- … Aspect
Gary Gallagher
Not ardent, not ardent enough to put on a uniform for the Confederacy, but ardent enough to, you know— … argue for the Confederacy. He claims … I mean, not claims. He heard Lincoln make a statement about maybe Black soldiers getting the vote, and he said that was it for him, that somebody needed to kill the tyrant. This is very … This is after Lee had surrendered.
Not ardent, not ardent enough to put on a uniform for the Confederacy, but ardent enough to, you know— … argue for the Confederacy. He claims … I mean, not claims. He heard Lincoln make a statement about maybe Black soldiers getting the vote, and he said that was it for him, that somebody needed to kill the tyrant. This is very … This is after Lee had surrendered.
Lex Fridman
So he was on the Union side.
So he was on the Union side.
Gary Gallagher
Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, he-
Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, he-
Lex Fridman
But Lincoln was a tyrant in his eyes.
But Lincoln was a tyrant in his eyes.
Gary Gallagher
Lincoln was a tyrant because of his treatment of the white South. And he had plotted earlier to kidnap Lincoln and hold him for ransom, and that didn’t work out. So then he got this little group of losers around him to help. I mean, real misfits. Their plan was to kill Seward, Andrew Johnson. They were gonna cut off the top leadership of the United States. Kill the vice, kill the president, kill the vice president, kill the secretary of state. That’s what they wanted to do.
Lincoln was a tyrant because of his treatment of the white South. And he had plotted earlier to kidnap Lincoln and hold him for ransom, and that didn’t work out. So then he got this little group of losers around him to help. I mean, real misfits. Their plan was to kill Seward, Andrew Johnson. They were gonna cut off the top leadership of the United States. Kill the vice, kill the president, kill the vice president, kill the secretary of state. That’s what they wanted to do.
Lex Fridman
On the Johnson side, they chickened out.
On the Johnson side, they chickened out.
Gary Gallagher
That guy chickened out. A guy named Lewis Powell was sent to kill Seward. Seward had been in an accident and had his neck in a big brace, and he slashed at Seward, huge scars on the side of his face, but the knife hit the brace and didn’t kill Seward. So Seward was disfigured. His son was wounded. The guy who was supposed to kill Johnson chickened out, and Booth killed Lincoln.
That guy chickened out. A guy named Lewis Powell was sent to kill Seward. Seward had been in an accident and had his neck in a big brace, and he slashed at Seward, huge scars on the side of his face, but the knife hit the brace and didn’t kill Seward. So Seward was disfigured. His son was wounded. The guy who was supposed to kill Johnson chickened out, and Booth killed Lincoln.
Gary Gallagher
And there was a manhunt for Lincoln, or for Booth. It took a while, and he was shot in a barn rather than captured and put on trial. But four of the conspirators were put on trial, including one woman, a woman named Mary Surratt, who ran a boarding house where some of them stayed, and they were all hanged at Old Capitol Prison. And the combination of that hanging, they were tried by a military commission and hanged, but they also put on trial and hanged the commandant of Andersonville Prison, which was the most infamous of the Confederate prisoner of war camps. They hanged him as well. And it seemed that those hangings sort of took the edge, the sort of we need some retribution edge off attitudes in the North.
And there was a manhunt for Lincoln, or for Booth. It took a while, and he was shot in a barn rather than captured and put on trial. But four of the conspirators were put on trial, including one woman, a woman named Mary Surratt, who ran a boarding house where some of them stayed, and they were all hanged at Old Capitol Prison. And the combination of that hanging, they were tried by a military commission and hanged, but they also put on trial and hanged the commandant of Andersonville Prison, which was the most infamous of the Confederate prisoner of war camps. They hanged him as well. And it seemed that those hangings sort of took the edge, the sort of we need some retribution edge off attitudes in the North.
Gary Gallagher
I think those things helped offset Lincoln’s assassination in a sort of odd way because the temperature went down after that.
I think those things helped offset Lincoln’s assassination in a sort of odd way because the temperature went down after that.
Lex Fridman
You talk about, as maybe a bit of an aside but that we Americans like to spin up conspiracy theories about assassinations- … of our presidents. So that’s certainly very true, maybe truer than most about Lincoln’s assassination.
You talk about, as maybe a bit of an aside but that we Americans like to spin up conspiracy theories about assassinations- … of our presidents. So that’s certainly very true, maybe truer than most about Lincoln’s assassination.
Gary Gallagher
There was a long literature actually. It began with a chemist named Otto Eisenschiml many, many decades ago that implicated Secretary of War Stanton- … and blamed the radicals were unhappy with Lincoln for not being harsher on the former Confederates, and what they wanted to do was get him out of the way. They thought they could manipulate Andrew Johnson if they got Andrew Johnson in charge. So then they would pose these questions. How come no one was guarding Lincoln that night? How come the only bridge over the Potomac that wasn’t guarded is the one that Booth escaped across? All of these.
There was a long literature actually. It began with a chemist named Otto Eisenschiml many, many decades ago that implicated Secretary of War Stanton- … and blamed the radicals were unhappy with Lincoln for not being harsher on the former Confederates, and what they wanted to do was get him out of the way. They thought they could manipulate Andrew Johnson if they got Andrew Johnson in charge. So then they would pose these questions. How come no one was guarding Lincoln that night? How come the only bridge over the Potomac that wasn’t guarded is the one that Booth escaped across? All of these.
Gary Gallagher
How come Grant didn’t go to the play with Lincoln? The Lincolns asked them. Well, they didn’t ’cause Mrs. Lincoln didn’t like… I mean, Mrs. Grant didn’t like Mrs. Lincoln. I mean, there are answers to all the questions. But they put all these together, added two and two and got five, and said that it was a plot on the part of the radical wing of the Republican Party to get rid of Lincoln ’cause Lincoln didn’t wanna be harsh enough on the South.
How come Grant didn’t go to the play with Lincoln? The Lincolns asked them. Well, they didn’t ’cause Mrs. Lincoln didn’t like… I mean, Mrs. Grant didn’t like Mrs. Lincoln. I mean, there are answers to all the questions. But they put all these together, added two and two and got five, and said that it was a plot on the part of the radical wing of the Republican Party to get rid of Lincoln ’cause Lincoln didn’t wanna be harsh enough on the South.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s difficult to believe that dramatic, sometimes catastrophic things happen for seemingly… That, that like the random, as you said, loser…
Yeah, it’s difficult to believe that dramatic, sometimes catastrophic things happen for seemingly… That, that like the random, as you said, loser…
Gary Gallagher
It’s not satisfying. You want a more satisfying, and that is a big conspiracy is better. There are all these forces at work to get rid of Lincoln, not just that the one guy assigned to guard Lincoln—there’s no Secret Service then—went across the street to get a drink. And Booth had played in that theater many times. He knew exactly the layout. He’d come in earlier. He’d arrange… I mean, it just, that’s the way it worked out.
It’s not satisfying. You want a more satisfying, and that is a big conspiracy is better. There are all these forces at work to get rid of Lincoln, not just that the one guy assigned to guard Lincoln—there’s no Secret Service then—went across the street to get a drink. And Booth had played in that theater many times. He knew exactly the layout. He’d come in earlier. He’d arrange… I mean, it just, that’s the way it worked out.
Lex Fridman
And I have to say, it’s kinda interesting. I have to be honest with my own mind that, like, I love a good conspiracy. My brain does.
And I have to say, it’s kinda interesting. I have to be honest with my own mind that, like, I love a good conspiracy. My brain does.
Gary Gallagher
Almost everybody does.
Almost everybody does.
Lex Fridman
I think it’s, what is it? It’s maybe depressing or heartbreaking to know that so much destruction be caused by random events. You want there to be a larger system at play that makes you feel like there’s a meaning to this whole thing as opposed to the tides of history can turn on a stupid actor shooting one of the greatest, if not the greatest president in the history
I think it’s, what is it? It’s maybe depressing or heartbreaking to know that so much destruction be caused by random events. You want there to be a larger system at play that makes you feel like there’s a meaning to this whole thing as opposed to the tides of history can turn on a stupid actor shooting one of the greatest, if not the greatest president in the history
Gary Gallagher
That’s correct. Killing him, jumping out of the presidential box, breaking his leg when he hit the stage, limping off, and getting away. Yep.
That’s correct. Killing him, jumping out of the presidential box, breaking his leg when he hit the stage, limping off, and getting away. Yep.
Lex Fridman
Over 700,000 people dead, these epic battles, all of that. Lincoln survives all of it, and then there’s…
Over 700,000 people dead, these epic battles, all of that. Lincoln survives all of it, and then there’s…
Gary Gallagher
When they had the grand review in Washington, when Sherman’s armies and the Army of the Potomac marched over two days, this amazing display of the troops that had won the war, and troops who had run the war, one of the most common comments was, “Lincoln’s not here. Of all people who should’ve been here, Lincoln should’ve been here, and he doesn’t get to watch this. He’s not in the presidential box watching this.” And the soldiers talked about it too.
When they had the grand review in Washington, when Sherman’s armies and the Army of the Potomac marched over two days, this amazing display of the troops that had won the war, and troops who had run the war, one of the most common comments was, “Lincoln’s not here. Of all people who should’ve been here, Lincoln should’ve been here, and he doesn’t get to watch this. He’s not in the presidential box watching this.” And the soldiers talked about it too.
Lex Fridman
It’s heartbreaking, really, especially I would’ve loved to see his evolution as a leader, as a human being, and the words he may have, he may have found to direct us as a country, you know, in the, in the Reconstruction.
It’s heartbreaking, really, especially I would’ve loved to see his evolution as a leader, as a human being, and the words he may have, he may have found to direct us as a country, you know, in the, in the Reconstruction.
Gary Gallagher
Yep. Would’ve been different. We can’t tell how different. But it would’ve been different, and I think it would’ve worked more smoothly.
Yep. Would’ve been different. We can’t tell how different. But it would’ve been different, and I think it would’ve worked more smoothly.
Lost Cause and Confederate Monuments
Lex Fridman
What was Reconstruction? How rocky was it?
What was Reconstruction? How rocky was it?
Gary Gallagher
The white South liked to talk about the occupation of the South and how they were under the boot heel. There was never an occupation of the former Confederacy ’cause there never were enough troops available to do it. The most that were ever in the former Confederacy, which is three quarters of a million square miles in size, was 30,000 men, and that was for a very short period. By 1870, there were only about 10,000 men left. And the reason there wasn’t an occupation is because the Northern population wasn’t willing to either pay for it or keep men in uniform long enough to make the White South do something that they didn’t really care about, which was give full equal rights to formerly enslaved Black people.
The white South liked to talk about the occupation of the South and how they were under the boot heel. There was never an occupation of the former Confederacy ’cause there never were enough troops available to do it. The most that were ever in the former Confederacy, which is three quarters of a million square miles in size, was 30,000 men, and that was for a very short period. By 1870, there were only about 10,000 men left. And the reason there wasn’t an occupation is because the Northern population wasn’t willing to either pay for it or keep men in uniform long enough to make the White South do something that they didn’t really care about, which was give full equal rights to formerly enslaved Black people.
Gary Gallagher
The White North just wasn’t, they weren’t willing to do that. They were willing, largely because of Andrew Johnson’s intransigence in the summer of 1865 when he started to act like the South hadn’t even quite lost, they were willing to push far enough to get the 14th Amendment and the 15th Amendment. And that to me is sort of miraculous considering what the attitudes among white people were in the United States. You got the vote given to African American men, and you got the 14th Amendment. So that’s kind of amazing. And those don’t go away. They’re still there on the books to be interpreted correctly down the line somewhere, even though Jim Crow is a long and ugly episode of what comes. I mean, the Confederates just, they weren’t confused about being defeated.
The White North just wasn’t, they weren’t willing to do that. They were willing, largely because of Andrew Johnson’s intransigence in the summer of 1865 when he started to act like the South hadn’t even quite lost, they were willing to push far enough to get the 14th Amendment and the 15th Amendment. And that to me is sort of miraculous considering what the attitudes among white people were in the United States. You got the vote given to African American men, and you got the 14th Amendment. So that’s kind of amazing. And those don’t go away. They’re still there on the books to be interpreted correctly down the line somewhere, even though Jim Crow is a long and ugly episode of what comes. I mean, the Confederates just, they weren’t confused about being defeated.
Gary Gallagher
They were crushed, and so they vastly scaled back what they wanted. They had wanted a slave-holding republic. They scaled back for just having white supremacy and the, and the North, and, and that’s what happened. You ended up with white supremacy and Jim Crow intact- … which is a lot different than keeping slavery intact.
They were crushed, and so they vastly scaled back what they wanted. They had wanted a slave-holding republic. They scaled back for just having white supremacy and the, and the North, and, and that’s what happened. You ended up with white supremacy and Jim Crow intact- … which is a lot different than keeping slavery intact.
Lex Fridman
And that set off the whole process of the Civil Rights Movement that lasted decades.
And that set off the whole process of the Civil Rights Movement that lasted decades.
Gary Gallagher
I mean, Jim Crow is the clearest expression of the White South’s reaction to defeated Appomattox. “Okay, what, what can we get out of this? We can’t get what we wanted. This is the next best thing, and that’s what we’ll get. We’ll get Jim Crow.”
I mean, Jim Crow is the clearest expression of the White South’s reaction to defeated Appomattox. “Okay, what, what can we get out of this? We can’t get what we wanted. This is the next best thing, and that’s what we’ll get. We’ll get Jim Crow.”
Lex Fridman
You know, when you walk the ground of some of these battles, Gettysburg, is there something you can only experience when you’re there?
You know, when you walk the ground of some of these battles, Gettysburg, is there something you can only experience when you’re there?
Gary Gallagher
In my experience, you cannot replicate in a classroom what you can do at a historic site, I mean a really historic site. You get people to a place like that, I’ve given untold tours on battlefields and other historic places. You can talk about so much more than just what you can s- First of all, you can understand what happened on the battlefield better than reading about it or looking at maps ’cause the terrain makes it much clearer.
In my experience, you cannot replicate in a classroom what you can do at a historic site, I mean a really historic site. You get people to a place like that, I’ve given untold tours on battlefields and other historic places. You can talk about so much more than just what you can s- First of all, you can understand what happened on the battlefield better than reading about it or looking at maps ’cause the terrain makes it much clearer.
Gary Gallagher
But you can also talk about, okay, what are the men like in the armies who are here? Why are they in the ser- A lot of the things we’ve talked about today, what’s the status of the war now? What are the political situations behind the lines? What difference will this battle make? What will happen if the Federals prevail or if the Confederates prevail? Or you can use, at a place like Gettysburg, the memorial landscape as a wonderful way to talk about memory from the war. Look at the inscriptions on the monuments. What was important when they put these up? And the later monuments, it’s … The opportunities for a teacher on one of these sites are just almost unlimited.
But you can also talk about, okay, what are the men like in the armies who are here? Why are they in the ser- A lot of the things we’ve talked about today, what’s the status of the war now? What are the political situations behind the lines? What difference will this battle make? What will happen if the Federals prevail or if the Confederates prevail? Or you can use, at a place like Gettysburg, the memorial landscape as a wonderful way to talk about memory from the war. Look at the inscriptions on the monuments. What was important when they put these up? And the later monuments, it’s … The opportunities for a teacher on one of these sites are just almost unlimited.
Lex Fridman
And I don’t want to be too woo-woo, but I also believe from some of the experience I’ve had that the land has a kind of memory. I don’t know what it is.
And I don’t want to be too woo-woo, but I also believe from some of the experience I’ve had that the land has a kind of memory. I don’t know what it is.
Gary Gallagher
They have a speech in the cemetery at Gettysburg on the anniversary of Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address every year, and I was asked to do that a few years ago, and it was just… It was amazing to me. I mean, there have been very few things in my career that are like that, and we talked, we stopped in different parts of the cem- There were a thousand people there. It was an extremely cold, windy November 19th, and it was just… Talk about feeling the ghosts of the past. It was really something that I’ve only felt a few times in my life. It was really interesting, really interesting.
They have a speech in the cemetery at Gettysburg on the anniversary of Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address every year, and I was asked to do that a few years ago, and it was just… It was amazing to me. I mean, there have been very few things in my career that are like that, and we talked, we stopped in different parts of the cem- There were a thousand people there. It was an extremely cold, windy November 19th, and it was just… Talk about feeling the ghosts of the past. It was really something that I’ve only felt a few times in my life. It was really interesting, really interesting.
Lex Fridman
You’ve mentioned the Lost Cause a few times. What was the Lost Cause? Who created it, and what did it claim?
You’ve mentioned the Lost Cause a few times. What was the Lost Cause? Who created it, and what did it claim?
Gary Gallagher
The Lost Cause is the Confederate memory stream of the war, and let me just say very, very briefly, I think there are four main ways the generation that experienced the war remembered it. The one remembered by the most people would be the majority of white Northerners is what I call the Union Cause and that the greatest outcome of the war was putting the nation back together. It’s also good that slavery was killed. That’s important, but the most important thing was putting the nation back together. The Emancipation Cause memory of the war is, yes, it’s a good thing that the Union was saved, but the most important thing is you killed slavery. You got rid of this monstrous institution that had mocked that language in the founding documents.
The Lost Cause is the Confederate memory stream of the war, and let me just say very, very briefly, I think there are four main ways the generation that experienced the war remembered it. The one remembered by the most people would be the majority of white Northerners is what I call the Union Cause and that the greatest outcome of the war was putting the nation back together. It’s also good that slavery was killed. That’s important, but the most important thing was putting the nation back together. The Emancipation Cause memory of the war is, yes, it’s a good thing that the Union was saved, but the most important thing is you killed slavery. You got rid of this monstrous institution that had mocked that language in the founding documents.
Gary Gallagher
So those are both the winners’ versions of the war. The Confederate version, the Confederates are in a tough spot. How do we make something palatable out of this ca- catastrophic decision we made in 1861? We’ll do this to save slavery, and four years later, slavery’s dead, and a third of all our white military-age boys are dead. So here’s what we’re gonna do. First of all, it wasn’t about slavery. Let’s pretend it wasn’t about slavery. It was about high constitutional principles. It was about states’ rights-
So those are both the winners’ versions of the war. The Confederate version, the Confederates are in a tough spot. How do we make something palatable out of this ca- catastrophic decision we made in 1861? We’ll do this to save slavery, and four years later, slavery’s dead, and a third of all our white military-age boys are dead. So here’s what we’re gonna do. First of all, it wasn’t about slavery. Let’s pretend it wasn’t about slavery. It was about high constitutional principles. It was about states’ rights-
Lex Fridman
States’ rights…
States’ rights…
Gary Gallagher
… as opposed to central authority oppressing people.
… as opposed to central authority oppressing people.
Lex Fridman
Right, right, right.
Right, right, right.
Gary Gallagher
And second, we never could have won. It was a hopeless fight against long odds, and so it was a gallant effort in pursuit of constitutional rights. Okay, that gets us off the hook there. And who are we gonna look to? Should we talk about Jefferson Davis? No, we didn’t even like him during the war. I know who we’ll talk about. Let’s talk about Robert E. Lee. He won victories against the odds. So these are kind of the main tenets of the Lost Cause. It wasn’t about slavery. We never could have won. There’s no loss of honor in losing a battle you never could have won, but that you waged for high constitutional principle. And let’s talk about Lee ’cause we don’t wanna talk about Jefferson Davis, and there’s almost no one else to talk about except maybe Stonewall Jackson.
And second, we never could have won. It was a hopeless fight against long odds, and so it was a gallant effort in pursuit of constitutional rights. Okay, that gets us off the hook there. And who are we gonna look to? Should we talk about Jefferson Davis? No, we didn’t even like him during the war. I know who we’ll talk about. Let’s talk about Robert E. Lee. He won victories against the odds. So these are kind of the main tenets of the Lost Cause. It wasn’t about slavery. We never could have won. There’s no loss of honor in losing a battle you never could have won, but that you waged for high constitutional principle. And let’s talk about Lee ’cause we don’t wanna talk about Jefferson Davis, and there’s almost no one else to talk about except maybe Stonewall Jackson.
Gary Gallagher
Those will be our two boys that we talk about the most. And that is basically the short form of the Lost Cause. The fourth way that people remembered, and this came a little bit later, was the reconciliation cause where you… This is kind of white Northerners and white Southerners agreeing not to talk about slavery. Don’t talk about emancipation. Let’s talk about shared American virtues of courage and so forth.
Those will be our two boys that we talk about the most. And that is basically the short form of the Lost Cause. The fourth way that people remembered, and this came a little bit later, was the reconciliation cause where you… This is kind of white Northerners and white Southerners agreeing not to talk about slavery. Don’t talk about emancipation. Let’s talk about shared American virtues of courage and so forth.
Lex Fridman
So some of that still persists with us today. We look at the Confederate flag. So some historians argue for the long, quote, “long Civil War.”
So some of that still persists with us today. We look at the Confederate flag. So some historians argue for the long, quote, “long Civil War.”
Gary Gallagher
Sure, and it’s really long. It’s the Civil War that never ends kind of, and I certainly think that there are ramifications from the Civil War that have never ended. But I think the Civil War ended, and I think it ended in the early summer of 1865 with the destruction of the Confederate government, the absolute dissolution of all the Confederate military forces. I think that is the end of the Civil War. People at the time thought it was, too. What comes afterward, the long coda, Reconstruction is a 12-year coda to a four-year war that works out some of the difficulties of how you put the nation back together. And then beyond that, you have these different memory streams that have been contending with one another that still…
Sure, and it’s really long. It’s the Civil War that never ends kind of, and I certainly think that there are ramifications from the Civil War that have never ended. But I think the Civil War ended, and I think it ended in the early summer of 1865 with the destruction of the Confederate government, the absolute dissolution of all the Confederate military forces. I think that is the end of the Civil War. People at the time thought it was, too. What comes afterward, the long coda, Reconstruction is a 12-year coda to a four-year war that works out some of the difficulties of how you put the nation back together. And then beyond that, you have these different memory streams that have been contending with one another that still…
Gary Gallagher
Some of which still reverberate today, including what are you gonna do with the Confederate flag, which most of… There are a lot of nitwits around. They don’t even know what the Confederate flag was. They fly a rectangular version of the St. Andrew’s cross. That is not the Confederate flag. They call it the Confederate flag. The Confederate flag that had a St. Andrew’s cross wasn’t a rectangle, it was a square, and the actual Confederate flag had three big bars and then stars up in… It looks kind of like the United States flag. They don’t even know that, and they go around flying it everywhere. It’s a symbol and pretend that it represents all kinds of things. The Confederate flag cannot be divorced from all the times, that version of it, the St. Andrew’s cross version.
Some of which still reverberate today, including what are you gonna do with the Confederate flag, which most of… There are a lot of nitwits around. They don’t even know what the Confederate flag was. They fly a rectangular version of the St. Andrew’s cross. That is not the Confederate flag. They call it the Confederate flag. The Confederate flag that had a St. Andrew’s cross wasn’t a rectangle, it was a square, and the actual Confederate flag had three big bars and then stars up in… It looks kind of like the United States flag. They don’t even know that, and they go around flying it everywhere. It’s a symbol and pretend that it represents all kinds of things. The Confederate flag cannot be divorced from all the times, that version of it, the St. Andrew’s cross version.
Gary Gallagher
Every Ku Klux Klan group flew it. Every… It’s… You just can’t sanitize it. And I mean, I saw Confederate flags in Britain and Ireland. I mean, it’s become a sort of up yours symbol I think in some places- … of just sort of rebellion, not necessarily- … tethered specifically-
Every Ku Klux Klan group flew it. Every… It’s… You just can’t sanitize it. And I mean, I saw Confederate flags in Britain and Ireland. I mean, it’s become a sort of up yours symbol I think in some places- … of just sort of rebellion, not necessarily- … tethered specifically-
Lex Fridman
Rebellion against institutions.
Rebellion against institutions.
Gary Gallagher
… against authority and institutions- … and the ruling class and the… But that’s… But here it has a very specific meaning, and you just can’t separate it. It’s… People should quit trying.
… against authority and institutions- … and the ruling class and the… But that’s… But here it has a very specific meaning, and you just can’t separate it. It’s… People should quit trying.
Lex Fridman
So you taught at UVA and lived through Charlottesville in 2017. Can you tell me what Charlottesville was? What did it mean?
So you taught at UVA and lived through Charlottesville in 2017. Can you tell me what Charlottesville was? What did it mean?
Gary Gallagher
It’s really interesting because the day just before that, I did a long interview with Katie Couric, who was working on a documentary about Confederate monuments. And she and I spent two hours talking, walking around the UVA campus, talking about the Confederate monuments were there. She was a student at UVA. She said, “I didn’t even know these were here.” I said, “Well, most people don’t know they’re here. They’re not aware of this, of this part of the landscape.” We had no idea. Her film crew went out the next day and filmed what was going on when they actually had the violence and the crowd at the Lee statue, which was downtown. I didn’t go down to watch any of that.
It’s really interesting because the day just before that, I did a long interview with Katie Couric, who was working on a documentary about Confederate monuments. And she and I spent two hours talking, walking around the UVA campus, talking about the Confederate monuments were there. She was a student at UVA. She said, “I didn’t even know these were here.” I said, “Well, most people don’t know they’re here. They’re not aware of this, of this part of the landscape.” We had no idea. Her film crew went out the next day and filmed what was going on when they actually had the violence and the crowd at the Lee statue, which was downtown. I didn’t go down to watch any of that.
Lex Fridman
What’s your view on Confederate monuments? You know, the monuments that capture these periods, these complicated periods of our history.
What’s your view on Confederate monuments? You know, the monuments that capture these periods, these complicated periods of our history.
Gary Gallagher
Well, I have complicated views, but my main… But my first reaction to that is they’re not all the same. They’ve all… They’re treated as if they’re all exactly the same, and they’re not. There’s some… There are the, the Silent Sam… which was on the campus at UNC for years. It had… Some of the rhetoric when they dedicated that is really horrific. It’s horrible rhetoric, and I can understand why that needed to go. There’s the… what was called the Battle of Liberty Place monument in New Orleans that, that was a white supremacist monument very definitely that. I think that local places should decide these. Wherever the monument is, I think that’s who should decide, if the local… And I think there should be a process how they decide it.
Well, I have complicated views, but my main… But my first reaction to that is they’re not all the same. They’ve all… They’re treated as if they’re all exactly the same, and they’re not. There’s some… There are the, the Silent Sam… which was on the campus at UNC for years. It had… Some of the rhetoric when they dedicated that is really horrific. It’s horrible rhetoric, and I can understand why that needed to go. There’s the… what was called the Battle of Liberty Place monument in New Orleans that, that was a white supremacist monument very definitely that. I think that local places should decide these. Wherever the monument is, I think that’s who should decide, if the local… And I think there should be a process how they decide it.
Gary Gallagher
Let people have a public hearing. But they did that in Charlottesville actually, had a public hearing. I went and talked at it. Lots of other scholars and local people talked at it, and then they had a commission that they had set up, and the commission voted to keep the monuments in place but re-examine them with text that put them in context and then put up monuments, new monuments to previously ignored groups. The city council then came in and overrode that and decided they took them all down in Charlottesville. They also took down the Lewis & Clark monument, and there’s a… They took down all the monuments that had been put up.
Let people have a public hearing. But they did that in Charlottesville actually, had a public hearing. I went and talked at it. Lots of other scholars and local people talked at it, and then they had a commission that they had set up, and the commission voted to keep the monuments in place but re-examine them with text that put them in context and then put up monuments, new monuments to previously ignored groups. The city council then came in and overrode that and decided they took them all down in Charlottesville. They also took down the Lewis & Clark monument, and there’s a… They took down all the monuments that had been put up.
Gary Gallagher
I think many of the Confederate monuments, the kind of ones on courthouse lawns and so forth that were put up by the Confederate generation, that is the veterans themselves and the women who were alive during the war, tend to be monuments to the common soldiers that, that just kind of lost generation of young men. The later wave of monuments that came are… were put up by other groups that were not… They’re not really Confederate monuments. They’re put up by… The ones that were put up in the ’20s and ’30s. A third wave were put up in reaction to the civil rights activities in the ’50s and early ’60s, and then a fourth wave went up after the movie Gettysburg and Ken Burns’ series. But they’re complicated, and I see them as historical… And I understand the arguments on both sides.
I think many of the Confederate monuments, the kind of ones on courthouse lawns and so forth that were put up by the Confederate generation, that is the veterans themselves and the women who were alive during the war, tend to be monuments to the common soldiers that, that just kind of lost generation of young men. The later wave of monuments that came are… were put up by other groups that were not… They’re not really Confederate monuments. They’re put up by… The ones that were put up in the ’20s and ’30s. A third wave were put up in reaction to the civil rights activities in the ’50s and early ’60s, and then a fourth wave went up after the movie Gettysburg and Ken Burns’ series. But they’re complicated, and I see them as historical… And I understand the arguments on both sides.
Gary Gallagher
I understand people who just say they’re hateful. They bring up hateful remembrances. We should get rid of all of them, every one of them. I used them as teaching tools in Charlottesville for years with groups of teachers and students. There were five monuments in Charlottesville: two that were put up by veterans, two that were put up by groups later—the Lee and Jackson statues were those—and then there were two bronze plates on the side of the rotunda that just listed UVA graduates who died in Confederate service. Had about 500 names on them. Those were all of the Confederate statues there, and it– I used them to talk about different strains of memory and used recon– They’re– The Lee, the main tenor of the Lee statue when it went up was this reconciliationist Lee.
I understand people who just say they’re hateful. They bring up hateful remembrances. We should get rid of all of them, every one of them. I used them as teaching tools in Charlottesville for years with groups of teachers and students. There were five monuments in Charlottesville: two that were put up by veterans, two that were put up by groups later—the Lee and Jackson statues were those—and then there were two bronze plates on the side of the rotunda that just listed UVA graduates who died in Confederate service. Had about 500 names on them. Those were all of the Confederate statues there, and it– I used them to talk about different strains of memory and used recon– They’re– The Lee, the main tenor of the Lee statue when it went up was this reconciliationist Lee.
Gary Gallagher
He, Lee wanted the nation back together. Lee at Appomattox, that kind of stuff. Didn’t have anything to do with Jim Crow or white supremacy, although all the people who put them up probably would’ve– Clearly, we would consider them racist. They were in favor of white supremacy. But you don’t need statues in the post-war South and the Jim Crow South. You have the police force, state law, local law, state troopers. That’s what enforces white supremacy, not statues. The historian in me likes to use them as part of the historical record, interpret them, use them to explain different parts of U.S. history. That’s how I used them. Having said all that, I did, I do, did, and still do believe that it should be a local issue.
He, Lee wanted the nation back together. Lee at Appomattox, that kind of stuff. Didn’t have anything to do with Jim Crow or white supremacy, although all the people who put them up probably would’ve– Clearly, we would consider them racist. They were in favor of white supremacy. But you don’t need statues in the post-war South and the Jim Crow South. You have the police force, state law, local law, state troopers. That’s what enforces white supremacy, not statues. The historian in me likes to use them as part of the historical record, interpret them, use them to explain different parts of U.S. history. That’s how I used them. Having said all that, I did, I do, did, and still do believe that it should be a local issue.
Gary Gallagher
If a locality decides they don’t want them up anymore, then don’t have them up anymore.
If a locality decides they don’t want them up anymore, then don’t have them up anymore.
Lex Fridman
I think if we ignore history, we’re gonna be doomed to repeat it. I think that’s… We should never censor books. We should read books. We should read Mein Kampf. We should read books that capture a certain moment in history, even if it’s a hateful moment in history, even if it’s a destructive moment in history. We need to understand-
I think if we ignore history, we’re gonna be doomed to repeat it. I think that’s… We should never censor books. We should read books. We should read Mein Kampf. We should read books that capture a certain moment in history, even if it’s a hateful moment in history, even if it’s a destructive moment in history. We need to understand-
Gary Gallagher
Or have them read texts written at the time that have language that we wouldn’t use now. It helps you understand the ti- It’s, it’s-
Or have them read texts written at the time that have language that we wouldn’t use now. It helps you understand the ti- It’s, it’s-
Gary Gallagher
There are a lot of hard edges in the past. There are a lot of nice edges too that make you feel good, but there are a lot of really hard edges in the past, and if you’re gonna be serious about coming to terms with history, you need to accept that and deal with them and talk about them and not just try to erase them, I think. There are a lot of books that people won’t read now. I taught a graduate seminar at one point on foundational 19th century texts, and one of the texts I was gonna… that I assigned in the class was Huckleberry Finn. And a lot of the students said they wouldn’t read Huckleberry Finn because they knew it had language in it that they… And they didn’t wanna see those words.
There are a lot of hard edges in the past. There are a lot of nice edges too that make you feel good, but there are a lot of really hard edges in the past, and if you’re gonna be serious about coming to terms with history, you need to accept that and deal with them and talk about them and not just try to erase them, I think. There are a lot of books that people won’t read now. I taught a graduate seminar at one point on foundational 19th century texts, and one of the texts I was gonna… that I assigned in the class was Huckleberry Finn. And a lot of the students said they wouldn’t read Huckleberry Finn because they knew it had language in it that they… And they didn’t wanna see those words.
Lex Fridman
Even just reading about slavery, American and otherwise, is hard. It’s really difficult. But, like, we’re capable of that. We humans are capable of that. And this doesn’t somehow go away because we agree for it to go away. We’re always can return back to that, maybe in other forms, in other ways. We can do evil things unto each other. And I personally believe all of us are capable of doing evil things unto each other. And the dark reality of that is we too readily convince ourselves that we’re doing good.
Even just reading about slavery, American and otherwise, is hard. It’s really difficult. But, like, we’re capable of that. We humans are capable of that. And this doesn’t somehow go away because we agree for it to go away. We’re always can return back to that, maybe in other forms, in other ways. We can do evil things unto each other. And I personally believe all of us are capable of doing evil things unto each other. And the dark reality of that is we too readily convince ourselves that we’re doing good.
Gary Gallagher
Yeah, because if you’re doing good, you can do anything-
Yeah, because if you’re doing good, you can do anything-
Lex Fridman
You can do anything
You can do anything
Gary Gallagher
… and it’s justified if it’s good. If the end is good- … all bets are off. You can do anything that you wanna do.
… and it’s justified if it’s good. If the end is good- … all bets are off. You can do anything that you wanna do.
Lex Fridman
And reading history to realize that we need to think deeper and more critically about our actions and also that history is complicated, and there’s a bunch of different forces is really important. And also to realize that individuals can turn the tides of history, can like, can lead to progress, can stop evil doing when it’s happening. All of those things. Like, the power of the individual is immense.
And reading history to realize that we need to think deeper and more critically about our actions and also that history is complicated, and there’s a bunch of different forces is really important. And also to realize that individuals can turn the tides of history, can like, can lead to progress, can stop evil doing when it’s happening. All of those things. Like, the power of the individual is immense.
Gary Gallagher
Yes. I mean, coming back to the monuments for a minute, it, it’s also worth talking about that even at the time there were people who… A lot of Union veterans were against putting up Confederate monuments. Frederick Douglass had a problem with the Emancipation Monument that was in Emancipation Park on Capitol Hill and talked about the reasons why he had a pro- “Why is this the image that you chose for that monument?” Union veterans, they had a hard time with Confederate monuments, and I just think that it is… Almost everything can be a teaching tool, un- but it bothers me that certain books would be proscribed because they have some language that might bother somebody. And, and, and it… You need to… I mean, the language should bother you. So-
Yes. I mean, coming back to the monuments for a minute, it, it’s also worth talking about that even at the time there were people who… A lot of Union veterans were against putting up Confederate monuments. Frederick Douglass had a problem with the Emancipation Monument that was in Emancipation Park on Capitol Hill and talked about the reasons why he had a pro- “Why is this the image that you chose for that monument?” Union veterans, they had a hard time with Confederate monuments, and I just think that it is… Almost everything can be a teaching tool, un- but it bothers me that certain books would be proscribed because they have some language that might bother somebody. And, and, and it… You need to… I mean, the language should bother you. So-
Lex Fridman
I think history truly should bother you. It, it, the, it should be difficult. It should be a painful process to study human history because if it’s not painful, you’re not really understanding the full range of what we’re capable of.
I think history truly should bother you. It, it, the, it should be difficult. It should be a painful process to study human history because if it’s not painful, you’re not really understanding the full range of what we’re capable of.
Extreme political division in US
Lex Fridman
But anyway, you know, people in the modern day, I have to ask you about this, kinda casually talk about the new Civil War in America.
But anyway, you know, people in the modern day, I have to ask you about this, kinda casually talk about the new Civil War in America.
Gary Gallagher
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
As somebody who studied the Civil War, do you think our country today is divided to a degree that’s on the verge of something like the Civil War of the 19th century?
As somebody who studied the Civil War, do you think our country today is divided to a degree that’s on the verge of something like the Civil War of the 19th century?
Gary Gallagher
No, I really don’t, and I’m not… And I don’t mean to play down the degree to which… that we are divided. We are divided. We do resemble the 1850s now in that I think the first impulse on the part of people on either side of the political spectrum is to attribute the worst to the other side and to not acknowledge any good on the other side, to attribute the worst possible characteristics to the other side, and to have inflammatory rhetoric coming from various directions that really seeks to sort of stir up as much unhappiness and controversy as possible. I think we’re like the 1850s in that way.
No, I really don’t, and I’m not… And I don’t mean to play down the degree to which… that we are divided. We are divided. We do resemble the 1850s now in that I think the first impulse on the part of people on either side of the political spectrum is to attribute the worst to the other side and to not acknowledge any good on the other side, to attribute the worst possible characteristics to the other side, and to have inflammatory rhetoric coming from various directions that really seeks to sort of stir up as much unhappiness and controversy as possible. I think we’re like the 1850s in that way.
Gary Gallagher
But in terms of whether we’re really at the point where the kind of actions that I’ve dealt with in my study of the Civil War… I don’t think we’re anywhere near that. And I mean, I really don’t. If we get there, that will be heartbreaking, but I just don’t, I just don’t see it. I don’t see physical assaults against members of Congress on the floor of the Congress. I don’t see… It’s… States talk about seceding if things don’t go… Texas talked about seceding when Obama was elected. California talked about seceding when Trump was elected. But you know what? Neither one of them called a secession convention and had delegates go to it. When Lincoln was elected, they called conventions, they voted to secede, and they left the nation.
But in terms of whether we’re really at the point where the kind of actions that I’ve dealt with in my study of the Civil War… I don’t think we’re anywhere near that. And I mean, I really don’t. If we get there, that will be heartbreaking, but I just don’t, I just don’t see it. I don’t see physical assaults against members of Congress on the floor of the Congress. I don’t see… It’s… States talk about seceding if things don’t go… Texas talked about seceding when Obama was elected. California talked about seceding when Trump was elected. But you know what? Neither one of them called a secession convention and had delegates go to it. When Lincoln was elected, they called conventions, they voted to secede, and they left the nation.
Gary Gallagher
So that’s different to me than talking about it and threatening it and posing different scenarios.
So that’s different to me than talking about it and threatening it and posing different scenarios.
Lex Fridman
Are there genuine structural parallels between that time and now, if you can linger on that?
Are there genuine structural parallels between that time and now, if you can linger on that?
Gary Gallagher
Well, I mean, the states structurally, a state can call a convention if it wants to, and to talk about whatever it wants to talk about. So I suppose that structure is still in place, but I haven’t seen any serious movement toward doing something like that.
Well, I mean, the states structurally, a state can call a convention if it wants to, and to talk about whatever it wants to talk about. So I suppose that structure is still in place, but I haven’t seen any serious movement toward doing something like that.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. And I think there’s a real cohesion and resilience to the Union, as we’ve talked about. I think people are, despite the discourse and the bickering, there’s a real love of nation that maybe is not often expressed- … explicitly. But there is a sense that we’re all in this kinda together, and that we’re yelling at each other. Kinda like you have a family Thanksgiving dinner where there’s very passionate yelling and arguing, but there’s a kinda assumption that we’re still a family. At least that’s the hope. You know, one of the questions that the Civil War asked is, what is America? So I have to ask you from, from over 50 years of studying the Civil War… like what, what do you think? What is this country? What is this union? What are, what is the core that makes us who we are?
Yeah. And I think there’s a real cohesion and resilience to the Union, as we’ve talked about. I think people are, despite the discourse and the bickering, there’s a real love of nation that maybe is not often expressed- … explicitly. But there is a sense that we’re all in this kinda together, and that we’re yelling at each other. Kinda like you have a family Thanksgiving dinner where there’s very passionate yelling and arguing, but there’s a kinda assumption that we’re still a family. At least that’s the hope. You know, one of the questions that the Civil War asked is, what is America? So I have to ask you from, from over 50 years of studying the Civil War… like what, what do you think? What is this country? What is this union? What are, what is the core that makes us who we are?
Gary Gallagher
Well, I think in a lot of ways it’s much of what it was in the mid-19th century. I still think it’s a magnet for… I mean, we’re in an unbelie- we’re far more diverse now as a people than we were during the Civil War because we continue to act in the same way as it did in the Civil War, only they’re not Germans and Ir- people come from everywhere here now. I mean, they literally come from everywhere here now. And everybody doesn’t find a nice easy road here by any means, and there are lots of things wrong with the United States. But I still think the United States acts…
Well, I think in a lot of ways it’s much of what it was in the mid-19th century. I still think it’s a magnet for… I mean, we’re in an unbelie- we’re far more diverse now as a people than we were during the Civil War because we continue to act in the same way as it did in the Civil War, only they’re not Germans and Ir- people come from everywhere here now. I mean, they literally come from everywhere here now. And everybody doesn’t find a nice easy road here by any means, and there are lots of things wrong with the United States. But I still think the United States acts…
Gary Gallagher
Has a, has a role in the world that’s unlike, I won’t say any other place, but I can’t think of a place that’s quite like it, that has so many people coming from so many places, who somehow manage to fit into this mosaic. And then I think most people do have a way to fit into the mosaic, and then they become part of the old mosaic when the next group of people who are not like them come in, and those are the ones who are the new ones fitting in.
Has a, has a role in the world that’s unlike, I won’t say any other place, but I can’t think of a place that’s quite like it, that has so many people coming from so many places, who somehow manage to fit into this mosaic. And then I think most people do have a way to fit into the mosaic, and then they become part of the old mosaic when the next group of people who are not like them come in, and those are the ones who are the new ones fitting in.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, sometimes I think about, I’m sorry to romanticize it, but because I do think that Barack Obama was one of the great speech makers of my lifetime. And I, I sometimes imagine what Lincoln would have thought if he could attend an Obama speech. If he saw that Obama became president, that an African American became President of the United States of America. It’s, it seems like such a trivial thing to say, but I think it’s not trivial at all. It’s one of the great accomplishments of our country.
Yeah, sometimes I think about, I’m sorry to romanticize it, but because I do think that Barack Obama was one of the great speech makers of my lifetime. And I, I sometimes imagine what Lincoln would have thought if he could attend an Obama speech. If he saw that Obama became president, that an African American became President of the United States of America. It’s, it seems like such a trivial thing to say, but I think it’s not trivial at all. It’s one of the great accomplishments of our country.
Gary Gallagher
I think one of Lincoln’s great attributes was his humanity comes through so many things that he wrote. His real appreciation for people who faced long odds, worked against the odds, didn’t begin with advantages in their favor, and so forth. I think he and his ability to grow, I think he would have handled that actually pretty well. Much better than many other people I can think of from the mid-19th century.
I think one of Lincoln’s great attributes was his humanity comes through so many things that he wrote. His real appreciation for people who faced long odds, worked against the odds, didn’t begin with advantages in their favor, and so forth. I think he and his ability to grow, I think he would have handled that actually pretty well. Much better than many other people I can think of from the mid-19th century.
Gary Gallagher
I think he had genuine humanity. I think, I don’t think you can read all the things he wrote and not come to that conclusion. He also… But, so does, does he check all our boxes now? Of course he doesn’t. Was he prejudiced by our standards in some ways? Of course he was. But I think that he, I think he would have handled that pretty well, and he would have been, still been really tall. Even in our time- … he’d be way taller than most people.
I think he had genuine humanity. I think, I don’t think you can read all the things he wrote and not come to that conclusion. He also… But, so does, does he check all our boxes now? Of course he doesn’t. Was he prejudiced by our standards in some ways? Of course he was. But I think that he, I think he would have handled that pretty well, and he would have been, still been really tall. Even in our time- … he’d be way taller than most people.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. What you know, 250th birthday what gives you hope about the future of America?
Yeah. What you know, 250th birthday what gives you hope about the future of America?
Gary Gallagher
What gives me hope? I’m, and I’m a grouchy, not optimistic person in a lot of ways.
What gives me hope? I’m, and I’m a grouchy, not optimistic person in a lot of ways.
Lex Fridman
Are you?
Are you?
Gary Gallagher
Yeah, I am. I am.
Yeah, I am. I am.
Lex Fridman
You had some moments of optimism today.
You had some moments of optimism today.
Gary Gallagher
I was just gonna say, but I do have moments of optimism, and one of them I have is in the resiliency of this republic. I really do have… And it’s genuine optimism. I’m not just… And I know a lot of people will think that it’s naive, but I really… Because I see what it’s been through, and it’s emerged- … and it’s gone forward. And the trajectory, and this is something that Obama has commented on, and as have many others, the trajectory is in the right direction. With lots of things you wish were different, but the overall trajectory is in the right direction. I really do believe that, and that’s why I tend to be, in that regard, optimistic.
I was just gonna say, but I do have moments of optimism, and one of them I have is in the resiliency of this republic. I really do have… And it’s genuine optimism. I’m not just… And I know a lot of people will think that it’s naive, but I really… Because I see what it’s been through, and it’s emerged- … and it’s gone forward. And the trajectory, and this is something that Obama has commented on, and as have many others, the trajectory is in the right direction. With lots of things you wish were different, but the overall trajectory is in the right direction. I really do believe that, and that’s why I tend to be, in that regard, optimistic.
Lex Fridman
I think there’s a few folks on the interwebs that talk about the decline of the American empire, even using the word empire. I’m one of the folks who thinks that America’s flourishing. It is a beacon of hope and freedom in the world, and there’s a lot to criticize, the militarism and a lot of different aspects that are hypocritical, and is not always living up to the great ideals that it supposedly represents, but at least is striving towards that. And it is still a home for the great diversity of humans, as you’ve mentioned. That, I think, is one of the great, beautiful aspects about this country.
I think there’s a few folks on the interwebs that talk about the decline of the American empire, even using the word empire. I’m one of the folks who thinks that America’s flourishing. It is a beacon of hope and freedom in the world, and there’s a lot to criticize, the militarism and a lot of different aspects that are hypocritical, and is not always living up to the great ideals that it supposedly represents, but at least is striving towards that. And it is still a home for the great diversity of humans, as you’ve mentioned. That, I think, is one of the great, beautiful aspects about this country.
Lex Fridman
And the full mess of it, the drama, the arguments, the heated passion, the chaos, the thing that feels like chaos but I think ultimately will lead to progress. I love all of it. I think it is the greatest nation on Earth. So on this 250th birthday, I hope there’s 250 years more, and I’m truly grateful that there’s somebody like you studying our great history, and I’m grateful for this wonderful conversation today.
And the full mess of it, the drama, the arguments, the heated passion, the chaos, the thing that feels like chaos but I think ultimately will lead to progress. I love all of it. I think it is the greatest nation on Earth. So on this 250th birthday, I hope there’s 250 years more, and I’m truly grateful that there’s somebody like you studying our great history, and I’m grateful for this wonderful conversation today.
Gary Gallagher
I appreciate the invitation. It’s been fun.
I appreciate the invitation. It’s been fun.
Lex Fridman
Thank you, Gary. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Gary Gallagher. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from William Tecumseh Sherman, a United States Army general in the Union Army during the Civil War. “I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Thank you, Gary. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Gary Gallagher. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from William Tecumseh Sherman, a United States Army general in the Union Army during the Civil War. “I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Transcript for Anthony Kaldellis: Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Rise & Fall of Empires | Lex Fridman Podcast #498
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #498 with Anthony Kaldellis.
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Table of Contents
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Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
- 0:00 – Episode highlight
- 1:24 – Introduction
- 1:51 – The Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire
- 5:49 – 2,200 Years of Roman History
- 26:12 – Power, violence, and civil war
- 47:27 – Edict of Caracalla
- 1:00:23 – Crisis of the Third Century
- 1:14:52 – Constantine and the new Roman Empire
- 1:26:53 – Christianity in the Roman Empire
- 1:52:21 – Fall of the Western Roman Empire
- 2:05:17 – Eunuchs, Taxes, and Power
- 2:30:24 – Emperor Justinian and wars of conquest
- 2:47:26 – The Arab conquests
- 3:07:01 – Why the Roman empire survived so long
- 3:33:08 – Lessons from history
Episode highlight
Anthony Kaldellis
We’re talking about a society that was right in the middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood that you can possibly live in.
We’re talking about a society that was right in the middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood that you can possibly live in.
Lex Fridman
26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.
26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. It’s tremendous instability.
Yes. It’s tremendous instability.
Lex Fridman
Almost all were—of these emperors—were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague. There’s just a lot of chaos.
Almost all were—of these emperors—were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague. There’s just a lot of chaos.
Anthony Kaldellis
Here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control. Sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hardass. And he’s this little old man. He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh.
Here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control. Sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hardass. And he’s this little old man. He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh.
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Anthony Kaldellis, a historian of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Anthony Kaldellis.
The following is a conversation with Anthony Kaldellis, a historian of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Anthony Kaldellis.
The Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire
Lex Fridman
You’ve described that the Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire, that calling it the Byzantine Empire is an invention of historians writing long after the empire has collapsed, that the people of that time considered themselves Romans, and that the so-called Byzantine Empire never actually existed, that it was, in every legal and cultural sense, the Roman Empire continuing unbroken.
You’ve described that the Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire, that calling it the Byzantine Empire is an invention of historians writing long after the empire has collapsed, that the people of that time considered themselves Romans, and that the so-called Byzantine Empire never actually existed, that it was, in every legal and cultural sense, the Roman Empire continuing unbroken.
Lex Fridman
So let’s get our terms right in the grand historical context. What is the Byzantine Empire, and why should we just call it the Roman Empire?
So let’s get our terms right in the grand historical context. What is the Byzantine Empire, and why should we just call it the Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
So Lex, the burden of proof is on those who would assert that what we’ve been calling the Byzantine Empire is something other- … than the Roman Empire, because all of our sources are very clear about this. And we’ve known about this. We’ve always known about it. It’s almost a form of cognitive dissonance, right? It’s like when you know something is the case, but you carry on as if it’s not.
So Lex, the burden of proof is on those who would assert that what we’ve been calling the Byzantine Empire is something other- … than the Roman Empire, because all of our sources are very clear about this. And we’ve known about this. We’ve always known about it. It’s almost a form of cognitive dissonance, right? It’s like when you know something is the case, but you carry on as if it’s not.
Anthony Kaldellis
So the Eastern Roman Empire, this is the direct continuation of the ancient Roman Empire in the East, right? Everybody knows the Western Empire fell in the fifth century. And for many conceptions of Western history, that was sufficient. Like, that’s when we just called it. The Roman Empire fell in the fifth century. And we kind of, yeah, we kind of know that the eastern half survived, but we don’t want to include that in our cultural genealogy. And so we kind of pretend that it became something else. But in fact, it called itself the Roman Empire. Its subjects were Roman citizens. They called themselves Romans all the way down through to the end and beyond.
So the Eastern Roman Empire, this is the direct continuation of the ancient Roman Empire in the East, right? Everybody knows the Western Empire fell in the fifth century. And for many conceptions of Western history, that was sufficient. Like, that’s when we just called it. The Roman Empire fell in the fifth century. And we kind of, yeah, we kind of know that the eastern half survived, but we don’t want to include that in our cultural genealogy. And so we kind of pretend that it became something else. But in fact, it called itself the Roman Empire. Its subjects were Roman citizens. They called themselves Romans all the way down through to the end and beyond.
Anthony Kaldellis
So there are a number of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to think that the Eastern Empire is something different, and those reasons have created these models where they called it the Empire of the Greeks for 1,000 years, then they switched to Byzantine Empire for very political reasons. Now that’s collapsing. So we’re now moving into a phase where we have the long Roman Empire. We recognize that the history of the Roman state, the Roman polity, is something that lasts an extraordinarily long time. Very unique, almost, in history, from antiquity, like the archaic period, down to the 15th century.
So there are a number of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to think that the Eastern Empire is something different, and those reasons have created these models where they called it the Empire of the Greeks for 1,000 years, then they switched to Byzantine Empire for very political reasons. Now that’s collapsing. So we’re now moving into a phase where we have the long Roman Empire. We recognize that the history of the Roman state, the Roman polity, is something that lasts an extraordinarily long time. Very unique, almost, in history, from antiquity, like the archaic period, down to the 15th century.
Lex Fridman
I think it would be really nice to actually look just for a brief moment at the grand scale of the full Roman state as it lasted for over 2,200 years. So its founding, 753 BC, to let’s say the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. So can we try to give a big picture overview of everything that happened?
I think it would be really nice to actually look just for a brief moment at the grand scale of the full Roman state as it lasted for over 2,200 years. So its founding, 753 BC, to let’s say the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. So can we try to give a big picture overview of everything that happened?
Anthony Kaldellis
Okay, so first we have a period of the kings. This is almost legendary, from like the eighth century BC down to around 510 BC. So this is when Rome is ruled by a series of local kings. The kings are expelled, and the republic, or what we call the republic is instituted, and this is a regime that’s governed by mostly an aristocracy, but with cooperation from the people of Rome. In various ways, the arrangements change over the centuries. So that lasts for about five centuries. And then we have the end of the republic in the era of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar, when the civil wars lead to the creation of an imperial monarchy-
Okay, so first we have a period of the kings. This is almost legendary, from like the eighth century BC down to around 510 BC. So this is when Rome is ruled by a series of local kings. The kings are expelled, and the republic, or what we call the republic is instituted, and this is a regime that’s governed by mostly an aristocracy, but with cooperation from the people of Rome. In various ways, the arrangements change over the centuries. So that lasts for about five centuries. And then we have the end of the republic in the era of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar, when the civil wars lead to the creation of an imperial monarchy-
Anthony Kaldellis
… right, under Augustus. So that’s, we date that roughly either, yeah, 27 BC, something like that. And thereafter, it is an imperial monarchy for the next millennium and a half. Very broadly, we can divide that into two phases, one where the center of power is in Rome, and one where it’s in Constantinople. And, you know, we can debate the dates of when that transition takes place. These big transitions usually take place over long periods of time. They’re not, like, very sudden. So that’s the big picture. Kings, republic, imperial monarchy.
… right, under Augustus. So that’s, we date that roughly either, yeah, 27 BC, something like that. And thereafter, it is an imperial monarchy for the next millennium and a half. Very broadly, we can divide that into two phases, one where the center of power is in Rome, and one where it’s in Constantinople. And, you know, we can debate the dates of when that transition takes place. These big transitions usually take place over long periods of time. They’re not, like, very sudden. So that’s the big picture. Kings, republic, imperial monarchy.
Lex Fridman
The Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire.
The Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And then the West and East Roman Empire.
And then the West and East Roman Empire.
2,200 Years of Roman History
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And then maybe what are the different terms that we could be using for the Byzantine Empire, including Byzantium? Is it also fair to say the Late Roman Empire?
And then maybe what are the different terms that we could be using for the Byzantine Empire, including Byzantium? Is it also fair to say the Late Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
So Late Roman Empire we use for both east and west, starting around the reign of Diocletian maybe, even a bit earlier, so during the third century AD. And that goes down to maybe the early seventh century. So that period we call Late Roman Empire. And if you ask me to define its principal characteristics, it would probably be the tax system and the administration, the bureaucracy— … of the later Roman Empire is that that comes from mostly Diocletian and Constantine’s reforms.
So Late Roman Empire we use for both east and west, starting around the reign of Diocletian maybe, even a bit earlier, so during the third century AD. And that goes down to maybe the early seventh century. So that period we call Late Roman Empire. And if you ask me to define its principal characteristics, it would probably be the tax system and the administration, the bureaucracy— … of the later Roman Empire is that that comes from mostly Diocletian and Constantine’s reforms.
Lex Fridman
And Diocletian was in the 3rd century.
And Diocletian was in the 3rd century.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, 284 to 305 AD. Yes. A very important reformer.
Yes, 284 to 305 AD. Yes. A very important reformer.
Lex Fridman
And we’ll talk about it, but let’s just do this whirlwind, and hopefully there’ll be automagical images somewhere overlaid, but—
And we’ll talk about it, but let’s just do this whirlwind, and hopefully there’ll be automagical images somewhere overlaid, but—
Anthony Kaldellis
Okay.
Okay.
Lex Fridman
So in 753 BC, Rome, a small city state, is founded, and in 509 BC, the kings are overthrown, and the Roman Republic is born. 390 BC, the Gauls sack Rome, and this, I believe, among other events throughout its history, is a formative trauma that hardens Rome’s security obsession. It turns out, throughout its history, people want to attack from different directions, and so you have to defend. So there’s two wars, as we’re actually saying off mic. There’s two kinds of military operations. One is wars of conquest and expansion, and one is more defensive. And we’ll talk about how the military changes throughout its history to allocate more effort to one versus the other.
So in 753 BC, Rome, a small city state, is founded, and in 509 BC, the kings are overthrown, and the Roman Republic is born. 390 BC, the Gauls sack Rome, and this, I believe, among other events throughout its history, is a formative trauma that hardens Rome’s security obsession. It turns out, throughout its history, people want to attack from different directions, and so you have to defend. So there’s two wars, as we’re actually saying off mic. There’s two kinds of military operations. One is wars of conquest and expansion, and one is more defensive. And we’ll talk about how the military changes throughout its history to allocate more effort to one versus the other.
Lex Fridman
In 264 to 146 BC, the Punic Wars and the survival against Hannibal transform Rome into a Mediterranean superpower. Then, like you mentioned, Caesar in 49 to 31 BC, Caesar’s crossing of the Rubicon to assassination of Caesar to the Battle of Actium, and then the Civil War dismantles the Republic and concentrates power in a single ruler, Octavian, AKA Augustus, the first Roman emperor, let’s say. Then 27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate, really low-key monarchy. And so officially, that ends the Republic, and then that begins 27 BC to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a period of relative peace and stability. And a lot of the emperors we know of, the sexy, popular emperors all come from that period.
In 264 to 146 BC, the Punic Wars and the survival against Hannibal transform Rome into a Mediterranean superpower. Then, like you mentioned, Caesar in 49 to 31 BC, Caesar’s crossing of the Rubicon to assassination of Caesar to the Battle of Actium, and then the Civil War dismantles the Republic and concentrates power in a single ruler, Octavian, AKA Augustus, the first Roman emperor, let’s say. Then 27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate, really low-key monarchy. And so officially, that ends the Republic, and then that begins 27 BC to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a period of relative peace and stability. And a lot of the emperors we know of, the sexy, popular emperors all come from that period.
Lex Fridman
Marcus Aurelius, who I’m a big fan of, from that period. Then that takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned, Diocletian, who rebuilds the state. Emperors drop the first citizen mask, this perception of the way, and we’ll talk about this, the, the persona that’s presented by the state. 312 AD, Constantine defeats Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of the western half of the empire, and then founds Constantinople in 330 AD. East and West are split in 395 AD. Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD. The West falls in 476 AD as the last Western emperor is deposed. And then we sort of focus more on the East Roman Empire with 527. In the 6th century, Justinian’s reign. In the 7th century, Heraclius defeats Persia and then loses against the Arabs.
Marcus Aurelius, who I’m a big fan of, from that period. Then that takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned, Diocletian, who rebuilds the state. Emperors drop the first citizen mask, this perception of the way, and we’ll talk about this, the, the persona that’s presented by the state. 312 AD, Constantine defeats Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of the western half of the empire, and then founds Constantinople in 330 AD. East and West are split in 395 AD. Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD. The West falls in 476 AD as the last Western emperor is deposed. And then we sort of focus more on the East Roman Empire with 527. In the 6th century, Justinian’s reign. In the 7th century, Heraclius defeats Persia and then loses against the Arabs.
Lex Fridman
There’s the Arab conquest continuing in the 7th century. In the 8th, the Arab siege of Constantinople fails. There’s the Macedonian dynasty that you have an excellent book about. And then the Crusades, and then eventually leading to Constantinople falling in 1453 AD. As a person who understands the full journey of it with a focus on East Roman history, is there obvious glaring holes or incorrect things in what I just said?
There’s the Arab conquest continuing in the 7th century. In the 8th, the Arab siege of Constantinople fails. There’s the Macedonian dynasty that you have an excellent book about. And then the Crusades, and then eventually leading to Constantinople falling in 1453 AD. As a person who understands the full journey of it with a focus on East Roman history, is there obvious glaring holes or incorrect things in what I just said?
Anthony Kaldellis
No, nothing incorrect. I would say if you wanted to produce a sort of very swift timeline of its history, it’s obviously important to focus on the moments when lots of territory was lost to foreign invaders, and these are actually three main moments. There’s the Arab conquests in the 630s. This is a decade. In a decade, that war was lost. It is the Seljuk Turk conquest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, in the 1070s, and that was very swift and partly reversed afterwards, but only partly. And then there’s the Fourth Crusade, 1204, when the armies from mostly France sack, conquer Constantinople, and dismember the empire as much as they could. It didn’t last that long. The Romans managed to regroup and recover, but those are the three main crisis points.
No, nothing incorrect. I would say if you wanted to produce a sort of very swift timeline of its history, it’s obviously important to focus on the moments when lots of territory was lost to foreign invaders, and these are actually three main moments. There’s the Arab conquests in the 630s. This is a decade. In a decade, that war was lost. It is the Seljuk Turk conquest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, in the 1070s, and that was very swift and partly reversed afterwards, but only partly. And then there’s the Fourth Crusade, 1204, when the armies from mostly France sack, conquer Constantinople, and dismember the empire as much as they could. It didn’t last that long. The Romans managed to regroup and recover, but those are the three main crisis points.
Anthony Kaldellis
They are very swift, but they cause incredible damage. For all the rest of its history, it is a state and society that is generally sort of consolidating, you know, regrouping, and generally engaged in slow but steady economic growth, territorial expansion on a small scale, but steady. So we can talk about this. It’s… I think it’s an important thing to keep in mind about the big picture, that the defeats were swift and kind of, you know, terrible but most of its history is one of slow growth.
They are very swift, but they cause incredible damage. For all the rest of its history, it is a state and society that is generally sort of consolidating, you know, regrouping, and generally engaged in slow but steady economic growth, territorial expansion on a small scale, but steady. So we can talk about this. It’s… I think it’s an important thing to keep in mind about the big picture, that the defeats were swift and kind of, you know, terrible but most of its history is one of slow growth.
Lex Fridman
There’s some traumatic events that have a big impact, but a lot of the developments we’ll talk about it might seem or feel like there’s a particular moment when those developments or changes in the way the government or the military is structured arise, but really it’s a gradual process.
There’s some traumatic events that have a big impact, but a lot of the developments we’ll talk about it might seem or feel like there’s a particular moment when those developments or changes in the way the government or the military is structured arise, but really it’s a gradual process.
Anthony Kaldellis
Exactly.
Exactly.
Lex Fridman
And so that’s the tension we have to be constantly dancing with.
And so that’s the tension we have to be constantly dancing with.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, so as historians, this is a point of method, and it’s very important. There are moments when, like, individuals with a great deal of power make choices that impact everybody else and have, you know, long-term consequences downstream. Constantine’s conversion to Christianity, for example, right? Not something that anybody could have or did predict. Okay. Otherwise, most of the developments that we identify by specific dates, like you mentioned 395, the division of the eastern and the western empires, those are conventional dates that we use to actually capture what is in fact a much longer process. There was no split between the two halves. It was one among many allocations of jurisdiction to, like, one son and another son in the east and the west.
Yeah, so as historians, this is a point of method, and it’s very important. There are moments when, like, individuals with a great deal of power make choices that impact everybody else and have, you know, long-term consequences downstream. Constantine’s conversion to Christianity, for example, right? Not something that anybody could have or did predict. Okay. Otherwise, most of the developments that we identify by specific dates, like you mentioned 395, the division of the eastern and the western empires, those are conventional dates that we use to actually capture what is in fact a much longer process. There was no split between the two halves. It was one among many allocations of jurisdiction to, like, one son and another son in the east and the west.
Anthony Kaldellis
The two halves were subsequently reunited, then they kind of divided again among different emperors. It’s just a process, and so we sometimes use fixed dates for what is in fact a process. Or for 476, the fall of the Western Empire, that’s just the last date. It’s actually a very long process that took decades. Right? So that’s just something to keep in mind, that sometimes we’re talking about processes, sometimes we’re talking about very discrete events with long-term consequences. Yeah.
The two halves were subsequently reunited, then they kind of divided again among different emperors. It’s just a process, and so we sometimes use fixed dates for what is in fact a process. Or for 476, the fall of the Western Empire, that’s just the last date. It’s actually a very long process that took decades. Right? So that’s just something to keep in mind, that sometimes we’re talking about processes, sometimes we’re talking about very discrete events with long-term consequences. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
Maybe an impossible question for a Roman state that lasted over 2,200 years, but is there a kind of through line, a thread, a soul that runs through the entire history of the Roman Empire? As you said, it’s a slow transformation and evolution. But if we dare call the whole thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state—
Maybe an impossible question for a Roman state that lasted over 2,200 years, but is there a kind of through line, a thread, a soul that runs through the entire history of the Roman Empire? As you said, it’s a slow transformation and evolution. But if we dare call the whole thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state—
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes
Yes
Lex Fridman
… is there some aspect, some characteristics that run through the whole thing?
… is there some aspect, some characteristics that run through the whole thing?
Anthony Kaldellis
I think so, yes. By the way, you know the metaphor of the Ship of Theseus? Okay. So in case the audience doesn’t know it, this is when there’s a ship, and it’s, you know, at sea, and over time, like, every component of that ship is replaced with some other component, so that by the end of the story, it has none of the original parts. But it’s, like, in a certain sense still that ship because of the story, right? The… Okay. So Roman history is different from, let’s say, Greek history or Christian history, right? Christian history is the story of a religion. It can be in any country, among any ethnic group. It’s here, there, right? It’s everywhere. But you still have histories of Christianity. It’s the same with, say, Greek culture—
I think so, yes. By the way, you know the metaphor of the Ship of Theseus? Okay. So in case the audience doesn’t know it, this is when there’s a ship, and it’s, you know, at sea, and over time, like, every component of that ship is replaced with some other component, so that by the end of the story, it has none of the original parts. But it’s, like, in a certain sense still that ship because of the story, right? The… Okay. So Roman history is different from, let’s say, Greek history or Christian history, right? Christian history is the story of a religion. It can be in any country, among any ethnic group. It’s here, there, right? It’s everywhere. But you still have histories of Christianity. It’s the same with, say, Greek culture—
Anthony Kaldellis
… or your Greek literature, right? It’s not a function of a particular state. Ancient Greeks were famously never united in a state. But it’s people who culturally accept that tradition as their kind of elite prestige culture and engage with Homer and Philo- and Plato and so forth. And they can be anywhere. Roman history is not like that. Roman history is very specifically the history of a state or a political community. And so this is the community of the Roman people, the Roman citizens. And it is in gradual evolution, but at no point is there a rupture in that history such that its members would ever think that something dramatic had changed, and that they’re no longer part of that story.
… or your Greek literature, right? It’s not a function of a particular state. Ancient Greeks were famously never united in a state. But it’s people who culturally accept that tradition as their kind of elite prestige culture and engage with Homer and Philo- and Plato and so forth. And they can be anywhere. Roman history is not like that. Roman history is very specifically the history of a state or a political community. And so this is the community of the Roman people, the Roman citizens. And it is in gradual evolution, but at no point is there a rupture in that history such that its members would ever think that something dramatic had changed, and that they’re no longer part of that story.
Anthony Kaldellis
So in the same way as the, as the ship I just mentioned, in other words, it’s the narrative that you tell about it where the changes that take place to it make sense only when you see them within the context of that story. It’s the same with Roman history. Yes, there are changes. Like, eventually everything changes. But it happens so gradually that it doesn’t seem that way to anyone living in it. And so the narrative of the history of the Roman people is what holds all of this together.
So in the same way as the, as the ship I just mentioned, in other words, it’s the narrative that you tell about it where the changes that take place to it make sense only when you see them within the context of that story. It’s the same with Roman history. Yes, there are changes. Like, eventually everything changes. But it happens so gradually that it doesn’t seem that way to anyone living in it. And so the narrative of the history of the Roman people is what holds all of this together.
Lex Fridman
How important is it that, so you mentioned Greek culture. So a lot of my friends who are Greek are extremely proud of being Greek. There’s certain cultures that are proud.
How important is it that, so you mentioned Greek culture. So a lot of my friends who are Greek are extremely proud of being Greek. There’s certain cultures that are proud.
Anthony Kaldellis
Sure.
Sure.
Lex Fridman
And it’s not a momentary ephemeral thing. It feels like a thing that has lasted for many generations. And so that is an engine that propagates through time that carries that culture forward. And so does a similar thing apply for the Roman Empire in a different way? Maybe ’cause you say it’s a political kind of community, that means a set of ideals. And we’ll talk about, because those ideals become even more concretized and explicit, I think, through the East Roman Empire, because one of the things you talk about is that the citizens of the empire are kind of all connected, that they are-
And it’s not a momentary ephemeral thing. It feels like a thing that has lasted for many generations. And so that is an engine that propagates through time that carries that culture forward. And so does a similar thing apply for the Roman Empire in a different way? Maybe ’cause you say it’s a political kind of community, that means a set of ideals. And we’ll talk about, because those ideals become even more concretized and explicit, I think, through the East Roman Empire, because one of the things you talk about is that the citizens of the empire are kind of all connected, that they are-
Lex Fridman
… engaged in this whole sort of machinery. Anyway, that’s a complicated way of asking, is, is there some elements that Greek pride, dare I speak, is there some kind of Roman pride that propagates the thing?
… engaged in this whole sort of machinery. Anyway, that’s a complicated way of asking, is, is there some elements that Greek pride, dare I speak, is there some kind of Roman pride that propagates the thing?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, there totally is. You can find authors and historical agents who definitely display this or talk about it. But we don’t wanna make that the center of the story or the basis for any analysis because… So what you’re observing in your Greek friends is also the result of modern nation building, is it’s the result of modern systems education, and sort of national identities, and these are fostered and created through all kinds of media and institutions. It’s, it’s just a different situation altogether. What you find in ancient republics or medieval states is more something like a consensus to be ruled, to be, to rule and to be ruled in this particular political community. Now, some members of it may definitely, and in fact did have this kind of pride.
Oh, there totally is. You can find authors and historical agents who definitely display this or talk about it. But we don’t wanna make that the center of the story or the basis for any analysis because… So what you’re observing in your Greek friends is also the result of modern nation building, is it’s the result of modern systems education, and sort of national identities, and these are fostered and created through all kinds of media and institutions. It’s, it’s just a different situation altogether. What you find in ancient republics or medieval states is more something like a consensus to be ruled, to be, to rule and to be ruled in this particular political community. Now, some members of it may definitely, and in fact did have this kind of pride.
Anthony Kaldellis
I’ll give you an example. So there’s an ambassador in the sixth century, and he’s concluding a deal with the Persians. And you know, the Persians are skeptical ’cause, you know, Romans can’t always be trusted. But this guy says to them, he says, “And let me just tell you, you’re making a deal here with the Romans. The Romans. The name should say it all.” Like, you, okay, and you get a sense that this is, he’s expressing a certain pride in, like, being a bearer of the Roman tradition and speaking for the emperors and the Roman Empire. I mean, that’s, for him, this was something very, very momentous. You find these kinds of examples, so these people exist. But I wouldn’t wanna make that the basis for like an analysis of how the society works as a whole.
I’ll give you an example. So there’s an ambassador in the sixth century, and he’s concluding a deal with the Persians. And you know, the Persians are skeptical ’cause, you know, Romans can’t always be trusted. But this guy says to them, he says, “And let me just tell you, you’re making a deal here with the Romans. The Romans. The name should say it all.” Like, you, okay, and you get a sense that this is, he’s expressing a certain pride in, like, being a bearer of the Roman tradition and speaking for the emperors and the Roman Empire. I mean, that’s, for him, this was something very, very momentous. You find these kinds of examples, so these people exist. But I wouldn’t wanna make that the basis for like an analysis of how the society works as a whole.
Anthony Kaldellis
For the most part, it was something like a consensus where, you know, subjects or citizens, however you wanna call them, they agree to, um- Let’s say be taxed and be ruled by political authorities because of what they get in return, and there’s this kind of understanding of a mutual set of responsibilities. And my concern, among other things, is to try to explain how this society held together for so long. Pride, yes, among some people, definitely. You find it in the sources. But sources are, texts are written by literate, usually elites. So this is a small part of the population. We can’t automatically extend their attitudes to everybody else.
For the most part, it was something like a consensus where, you know, subjects or citizens, however you wanna call them, they agree to, um- Let’s say be taxed and be ruled by political authorities because of what they get in return, and there’s this kind of understanding of a mutual set of responsibilities. And my concern, among other things, is to try to explain how this society held together for so long. Pride, yes, among some people, definitely. You find it in the sources. But sources are, texts are written by literate, usually elites. So this is a small part of the population. We can’t automatically extend their attitudes to everybody else.
Anthony Kaldellis
So in dealing with everyone else, we have to work with different kinds of materials, different kinds of assumptions. We can’t just posit that they’re just proud of being Roman. They could have been. We don’t know that, though. We can see other sorts of things about them. Like, for example, did they pay their taxes? Did they try to rebel and leave the empire? So those are the kinds of things that, that, that I look for.
So in dealing with everyone else, we have to work with different kinds of materials, different kinds of assumptions. We can’t just posit that they’re just proud of being Roman. They could have been. We don’t know that, though. We can see other sorts of things about them. Like, for example, did they pay their taxes? Did they try to rebel and leave the empire? So those are the kinds of things that, that, that I look for.
Lex Fridman
Pride is one component, but there could be other explanations and factors that explain what motivates a soldier to defend the capital, for example. Like, what motivates a particular person to pay the taxes. And then this is, this is something that we’ll definitely talk about. But just to linger at the big picture, if the Romans from the different periods met, how different would they be from each other? Like, if I, if I brought to you… This is one of those, you know, there’s like- … blind taste tests you can do with food.
Pride is one component, but there could be other explanations and factors that explain what motivates a soldier to defend the capital, for example. Like, what motivates a particular person to pay the taxes. And then this is, this is something that we’ll definitely talk about. But just to linger at the big picture, if the Romans from the different periods met, how different would they be from each other? Like, if I, if I brought to you… This is one of those, you know, there’s like- … blind taste tests you can do with food.
Anthony Kaldellis
Pepsi and Coke.
Pepsi and Coke.
Lex Fridman
Pepsi and Coke. If I brought you a Roman from the kingdom period, the republic period, the early imperial period-
Pepsi and Coke. If I brought you a Roman from the kingdom period, the republic period, the early imperial period-
Anthony Kaldellis
I mean, I get asked this in a, in a, in a much more radical form, which is like if you take someone from, like, around 1453 who’s a Roman and a subject of this Roman, and compare, and, and, you know, compare him or have him meet, you know, in your imagination with someone from the ancient republic. Like, how-
I mean, I get asked this in a, in a, in a much more radical form, which is like if you take someone from, like, around 1453 who’s a Roman and a subject of this Roman, and compare, and, and, you know, compare him or have him meet, you know, in your imagination with someone from the ancient republic. Like, how-
Anthony Kaldellis
… could they find any kind of agreement on, on what it means to be Roman and recognize each other as belonging to that polity? This, this is a very difficult thing to… Like, now, I can point to a number of things that they would find eventually. And, you know, if you told them, “Yo, you’re both Romans, you’re both from this long history, now you have to find, you know, what you have in common,” I think they could find things. But before we talk about those, if, if you wanna get into it, let’s just say that the question can even be posed about Romans who live at the same time.
… could they find any kind of agreement on, on what it means to be Roman and recognize each other as belonging to that polity? This, this is a very difficult thing to… Like, now, I can point to a number of things that they would find eventually. And, you know, if you told them, “Yo, you’re both Romans, you’re both from this long history, now you have to find, you know, what you have in common,” I think they could find things. But before we talk about those, if, if you wanna get into it, let’s just say that the question can even be posed about Romans who live at the same time.
Anthony Kaldellis
I mean, if you take a senator from the age of Cicero and someone from the slums of Rome, who’s maybe the son of a slave who was brought from the East by some general a generation ago, and put them in a room and say, “Now, you discuss. You, you’re both Romans. What do you have in common?” They might have trouble in coming up with something.
I mean, if you take a senator from the age of Cicero and someone from the slums of Rome, who’s maybe the son of a slave who was brought from the East by some general a generation ago, and put them in a room and say, “Now, you discuss. You, you’re both Romans. What do you have in common?” They might have trouble in coming up with something.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? So let’s not minimize the sheer diversity of experiences and sort of life experiences of Romans who are living at the same time. The important thing is that a change is always happening, and from my standpoint this change is sort of cumulative, so it results in Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian Romans in Constantinople who at first sight might have little to do with Latin-speaking, you know, non-Christians or worshiping the ancient gods, Romans from a republic in Rome. And those are very, very different situations, and no doubt they would, they would look and seem foreign to each other, right?
Right? So let’s not minimize the sheer diversity of experiences and sort of life experiences of Romans who are living at the same time. The important thing is that a change is always happening, and from my standpoint this change is sort of cumulative, so it results in Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian Romans in Constantinople who at first sight might have little to do with Latin-speaking, you know, non-Christians or worshiping the ancient gods, Romans from a republic in Rome. And those are very, very different situations, and no doubt they would, they would look and seem foreign to each other, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
The question is, why do we assume that someone like Hadrian, right, an emperor from the second century sort of a very cosmopolitan figure who travels around the empire with his Greek lover and, you know, writes poems and is, has a Greek beard and, you know, loves Greek culture and has much to do with someone from the Middle Republic who’s, you know, some warrior who’s chasing down cattle from the Samnites. I mean, and yet the way we understand history is that, oh no, those belong together. Hadrian and this ancient Roman from the fourth century BC. But not Hadrian and someone, you know, an emperor a few centuries later who’s just like him, bilingual in Greek and Latin, who’s-
The question is, why do we assume that someone like Hadrian, right, an emperor from the second century sort of a very cosmopolitan figure who travels around the empire with his Greek lover and, you know, writes poems and is, has a Greek beard and, you know, loves Greek culture and has much to do with someone from the Middle Republic who’s, you know, some warrior who’s chasing down cattle from the Samnites. I mean, and yet the way we understand history is that, oh no, those belong together. Hadrian and this ancient Roman from the fourth century BC. But not Hadrian and someone, you know, an emperor a few centuries later who’s just like him, bilingual in Greek and Latin, who’s-
Anthony Kaldellis
… kinda cosmopolitan, who, you know, reads the same stuff, because we posit this rupture between Roman and Byzantine.
… kinda cosmopolitan, who, you know, reads the same stuff, because we posit this rupture between Roman and Byzantine.
Lex Fridman
One of the ways we can try to analyze this is, for example, looking at a very specific role in society across time. So we can look at soldiers, how they solve violence, for example. That’s one way. So you’re making me realize that we can just take 1,000 different professions and positions in society and really specifically look at what the experience of the world was like. And so one of them is the view on violence across time. And, and then the other is the view on the role of the government- … across time.
One of the ways we can try to analyze this is, for example, looking at a very specific role in society across time. So we can look at soldiers, how they solve violence, for example. That’s one way. So you’re making me realize that we can just take 1,000 different professions and positions in society and really specifically look at what the experience of the world was like. And so one of them is the view on violence across time. And, and then the other is the view on the role of the government- … across time.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s an excellent way of putting it. So take soldiers, for example. They swear an oath. Right? Now, we don’t have the oath for every given period. We have some approximations of it, some hints of what it contained, but we know that Roman soldiers swore an oath, like, throughout all of the centuries of the empire. Sometimes they might add, like, a Christian formula to it. Sometime before that, not. But they swore basically to protect the republic or depending on what term they used or the empire or the emperor. And this is something that they would have recognized very quickly. Like, if, if they met each other over time and said, “Hey, what was your oath like?” And they recited it, this would have made much sense to them, right?
That’s an excellent way of putting it. So take soldiers, for example. They swear an oath. Right? Now, we don’t have the oath for every given period. We have some approximations of it, some hints of what it contained, but we know that Roman soldiers swore an oath, like, throughout all of the centuries of the empire. Sometimes they might add, like, a Christian formula to it. Sometime before that, not. But they swore basically to protect the republic or depending on what term they used or the empire or the emperor. And this is something that they would have recognized very quickly. Like, if, if they met each other over time and said, “Hey, what was your oath like?” And they recited it, this would have made much sense to them, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
Or take, for example, a woman who runs a business, right? From any century of the empire. It, it would have been, especially the later you go, the, the more so, that this woman is enabled to do this by virtue of Roman law. Of certain, you know, Roman law of property and inheritance and, and marriage, but also regulations regarding who can do what and what kinds of properties women can handle and under what circumstances. This is something that Roman women had in common that many other cultures did not. So I’ll give you an example. So for example, in the 10th, 11th century, there are Jewish women who live in the Eastern Roman Empire-
Or take, for example, a woman who runs a business, right? From any century of the empire. It, it would have been, especially the later you go, the, the more so, that this woman is enabled to do this by virtue of Roman law. Of certain, you know, Roman law of property and inheritance and, and marriage, but also regulations regarding who can do what and what kinds of properties women can handle and under what circumstances. This is something that Roman women had in common that many other cultures did not. So I’ll give you an example. So for example, in the 10th, 11th century, there are Jewish women who live in the Eastern Roman Empire-
Anthony Kaldellis
… who realize that they have more rights in Roman courts than in rabbinical ones, and they take their disputes to the Roman courts. Now, the thing is that for the Romans, these are property matters- … not religious matters. But for the rabbis, these are religious matters. But the Roman courts trump the Jewish courts- … in the empire, right? And so you end up with a situation where Jewish women have more rights- … than Jewish women do elsewhere, because there Roman law is not operative. And there you go. Right? Like, these things matter, right? And that’s a function of imperial law.
… who realize that they have more rights in Roman courts than in rabbinical ones, and they take their disputes to the Roman courts. Now, the thing is that for the Romans, these are property matters- … not religious matters. But for the rabbis, these are religious matters. But the Roman courts trump the Jewish courts- … in the empire, right? And so you end up with a situation where Jewish women have more rights- … than Jewish women do elsewhere, because there Roman law is not operative. And there you go. Right? Like, these things matter, right? And that’s a function of imperial law.
Power, violence, and civil war
Lex Fridman
And this, this would be an interesting actually interplay between the law and religious institutions- … Throughout the East- … Roman Empire. So you argue that even though the personality of the various emperors varied, as we’ll talk about, and as they’re often venerated, celebrated, criticized, talked about, the late Roman Empire was projecting a persona to its citizens that was consistent throughout its history. Can you describe what you mean by this and describe the different detailed characteristics of this persona?
And this, this would be an interesting actually interplay between the law and religious institutions- … Throughout the East- … Roman Empire. So you argue that even though the personality of the various emperors varied, as we’ll talk about, and as they’re often venerated, celebrated, criticized, talked about, the late Roman Empire was projecting a persona to its citizens that was consistent throughout its history. Can you describe what you mean by this and describe the different detailed characteristics of this persona?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. So this persona, it’s what the governments or the emperor, the court, and the spokesman, the bureaucracy want their subjects to think this whole thing is about. Like, how is power being used, why, and for whom, right? And they do so in laws that they promulgate throughout the empire. Sometimes they have these laws read in church, for example, or posted publicly. They’re definitely eager to have them communicated to as many people as possible. But they’re also a function of imperial rhetoric so the way you praise an emperor, the way you talk about an emperor. You find this language in petitions, so this is a hugely important glue for this society, is that anyone could basically petition the authorities for let’s just say just about anything.
Yes. So this persona, it’s what the governments or the emperor, the court, and the spokesman, the bureaucracy want their subjects to think this whole thing is about. Like, how is power being used, why, and for whom, right? And they do so in laws that they promulgate throughout the empire. Sometimes they have these laws read in church, for example, or posted publicly. They’re definitely eager to have them communicated to as many people as possible. But they’re also a function of imperial rhetoric so the way you praise an emperor, the way you talk about an emperor. You find this language in petitions, so this is a hugely important glue for this society, is that anyone could basically petition the authorities for let’s just say just about anything.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s not technically true, but there’s a lot of petitioning going on. So, you know, if you think something’s wrong or you’ve been treated unjustly, you can petition local officials, even imperial officials. You can petition the emperor, you can… Right? And the expectation is that that petition will be read, addressed, and answered. It might not be answered in the way that you want, but it will be answered. And those responses contain this language also, right? So these are the different media through which the emperors are broadcasting this persona, and that persona is what? Basically, that the authorities are responsive to the needs of their subjects, that they are often accountable.
That’s not technically true, but there’s a lot of petitioning going on. So, you know, if you think something’s wrong or you’ve been treated unjustly, you can petition local officials, even imperial officials. You can petition the emperor, you can… Right? And the expectation is that that petition will be read, addressed, and answered. It might not be answered in the way that you want, but it will be answered. And those responses contain this language also, right? So these are the different media through which the emperors are broadcasting this persona, and that persona is what? Basically, that the authorities are responsive to the needs of their subjects, that they are often accountable.
Anthony Kaldellis
In other words, they understand that they are exercising public power, and that their mandate is to exercise it solely for the benefit of their subjects. They keep saying this. So renouncing any kind of private interest. In other words, “We’re not doing this for our benefit,” say the authorities. “We’re doing this for your benefit.” Also that they’re proactive. So the emperors are constantly saying that, “We’re planning ahead. We, we’re trying to foresee what problems you might have, and we are solving them before you experience them.”
In other words, they understand that they are exercising public power, and that their mandate is to exercise it solely for the benefit of their subjects. They keep saying this. So renouncing any kind of private interest. In other words, “We’re not doing this for our benefit,” say the authorities. “We’re doing this for your benefit.” Also that they’re proactive. So the emperors are constantly saying that, “We’re planning ahead. We, we’re trying to foresee what problems you might have, and we are solving them before you experience them.”
Anthony Kaldellis
And that they are also working very hard. So hardworking. In fact, one of the cliches that they keep using is sleepless. The emperors keep saying that, “I’m losing sleep over this. I’m not sleeping at night because I’m just worrying so much about your problems and how to solve them.” Justinian, for example, was publicly known as the sleepless emperor, and not because he was a demon whose head floated around in the palace on its own, which some people
And that they are also working very hard. So hardworking. In fact, one of the cliches that they keep using is sleepless. The emperors keep saying that, “I’m losing sleep over this. I’m not sleeping at night because I’m just worrying so much about your problems and how to solve them.” Justinian, for example, was publicly known as the sleepless emperor, and not because he was a demon whose head floated around in the palace on its own, which some people
Lex Fridman
That’s the thing?
That’s the thing?
Anthony Kaldellis
It was a thing, yes.
It was a thing, yes.
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s a whole thing.
That’s a whole thing.
Lex Fridman
But sleepless in terms of worked so hard- … there’s no time to sleep.
But sleepless in terms of worked so hard- … there’s no time to sleep.
Anthony Kaldellis
He was a workaholic. That is conceded by even his enemies. All night he was up just, just hauling officials in at any old hour to talk about whatever, you know, wars and architecture and laws and religion and theology and whatever. So the emperors are projecting this image, right? So that’s what I call the persona. Tireless effort to work on behalf of subjects, to do so responsibly, to be responsive and accountable. In other words, if some of my officials breaks the law or oppresses you, I’m giving you instruments, like legal instruments, by which to hold them to account.
He was a workaholic. That is conceded by even his enemies. All night he was up just, just hauling officials in at any old hour to talk about whatever, you know, wars and architecture and laws and religion and theology and whatever. So the emperors are projecting this image, right? So that’s what I call the persona. Tireless effort to work on behalf of subjects, to do so responsibly, to be responsive and accountable. In other words, if some of my officials breaks the law or oppresses you, I’m giving you instruments, like legal instruments, by which to hold them to account.
Anthony Kaldellis
So that’s the persona. It’s very consistent and I think it’s part of the mechanism of tying the society together. In other words, if subjects think that their emperors are like this, right, they’re more likely to agree to the consensus of essentially paying taxes.
So that’s the persona. It’s very consistent and I think it’s part of the mechanism of tying the society together. In other words, if subjects think that their emperors are like this, right, they’re more likely to agree to the consensus of essentially paying taxes.
Lex Fridman
And you draw this distinction between rhetoric and action, what the authorities say and what they actually do. So when you say persona in the modern times, some of that could be reframed as propaganda- … for example. And propaganda implies that the rhetoric, that there’s a big gap between the rhetoric and the action. And one of the things you said you took away from reading Machiavelli is that we should judge people not by what they say, but by what they do. So how much of the Roman Empire’s government of what they espoused was merely rhetoric, and how much was true in how they acted?
And you draw this distinction between rhetoric and action, what the authorities say and what they actually do. So when you say persona in the modern times, some of that could be reframed as propaganda- … for example. And propaganda implies that the rhetoric, that there’s a big gap between the rhetoric and the action. And one of the things you said you took away from reading Machiavelli is that we should judge people not by what they say, but by what they do. So how much of the Roman Empire’s government of what they espoused was merely rhetoric, and how much was true in how they acted?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. This is a key lesson I took from reading Machiavelli, and I found this a very insightful way of thinking about politics, and I would recommend that anybody kind of practice this way of looking at the world, right? People and states and, you know, powerful people can say anything they want to. At the end of the day what matters is what they actually do. And this doesn’t mean that what they say is irrelevant, even if it’s discordant with what they do. But nevertheless in the case of the East Roman state, my research suggests that the emperors and the authorities were generally sincere in what they said. In other words, I have found that they generally did what they said they were going to do overall. Not perfectly, obviously.
Yes. This is a key lesson I took from reading Machiavelli, and I found this a very insightful way of thinking about politics, and I would recommend that anybody kind of practice this way of looking at the world, right? People and states and, you know, powerful people can say anything they want to. At the end of the day what matters is what they actually do. And this doesn’t mean that what they say is irrelevant, even if it’s discordant with what they do. But nevertheless in the case of the East Roman state, my research suggests that the emperors and the authorities were generally sincere in what they said. In other words, I have found that they generally did what they said they were going to do overall. Not perfectly, obviously.
Anthony Kaldellis
And of course, these are human beings we’re talking about. The, right, the human societies, there was a lot of, you know, corruption, and you name it. Abuse— … of course. Of course there is. But overall, I think that there was a sufficient level of understanding that the emperors are in fact doing this, and they were actually incentivized to do this. We can talk about how. Because they were also in a pretty vulnerable situation too, so they needed their subjects to be relatively content on this front.
And of course, these are human beings we’re talking about. The, right, the human societies, there was a lot of, you know, corruption, and you name it. Abuse— … of course. Of course there is. But overall, I think that there was a sufficient level of understanding that the emperors are in fact doing this, and they were actually incentivized to do this. We can talk about how. Because they were also in a pretty vulnerable situation too, so they needed their subjects to be relatively content on this front.
Lex Fridman
Isn’t this surprising to you? So, you know, from the outsider point of view, Roman emperors, even in the East Roman Empire, technically have a lot of power. You can even say in some cases absolute power, and yet they seem to be awfully worried … … To make everybody in the empire happy. What explains that? Like what, what explains the small gap between rhetoric and action in the East Roman Empire?
Isn’t this surprising to you? So, you know, from the outsider point of view, Roman emperors, even in the East Roman Empire, technically have a lot of power. You can even say in some cases absolute power, and yet they seem to be awfully worried … … To make everybody in the empire happy. What explains that? Like what, what explains the small gap between rhetoric and action in the East Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
A number of things, but ultimately it is that there is no right to the throne. And this is a function of the Roman matrix of politics here. In other words, so here’s a bit of a paradox. What we call the Roman Republic was the most imperialistic phase of Roman history. Like this is when the Romans did most of their conquering. What we call the empire is much less imperialistic in this way. That’s much more defensive in its approach, right? And yet our terms are a little mismatched in that way. The empire is more a function of that it has an emperor rather than it is engaged in imperialism. And that emperor emerged out of the republic.
A number of things, but ultimately it is that there is no right to the throne. And this is a function of the Roman matrix of politics here. In other words, so here’s a bit of a paradox. What we call the Roman Republic was the most imperialistic phase of Roman history. Like this is when the Romans did most of their conquering. What we call the empire is much less imperialistic in this way. That’s much more defensive in its approach, right? And yet our terms are a little mismatched in that way. The empire is more a function of that it has an emperor rather than it is engaged in imperialism. And that emperor emerged out of the republic.
Anthony Kaldellis
But emerged out of the republic in a very strange way. In other words, not as a dynasty that created the state. So for example, if you think of the Ottoman Empire, many other empires, they… The whole thing existed because this dynasty engaged in conquest and- … was successful in creating the state, and so the dynasty was like at the heart of the state. But that’s not at all the case in the Roman Empire. The emperor is a figure who emerged within a republic, and in order to create peace after the civil wars, those emperors had to, for a long time, kind of pretend that they were not what they really were.
But emerged out of the republic in a very strange way. In other words, not as a dynasty that created the state. So for example, if you think of the Ottoman Empire, many other empires, they… The whole thing existed because this dynasty engaged in conquest and- … was successful in creating the state, and so the dynasty was like at the heart of the state. But that’s not at all the case in the Roman Empire. The emperor is a figure who emerged within a republic, and in order to create peace after the civil wars, those emperors had to, for a long time, kind of pretend that they were not what they really were.
Anthony Kaldellis
By basically, you know, continuing to flatter the idea of a republic that is, you know, that has a first citizen maybe. “Oh, no, no, I’m not a king. I’m just, I have this office and that office and that office.” “Whatever the Senate has given me.” Now, we understand that’s a facade, but the fact that they had to create this facade at all is very important.
By basically, you know, continuing to flatter the idea of a republic that is, you know, that has a first citizen maybe. “Oh, no, no, I’m not a king. I’m just, I have this office and that office and that office.” “Whatever the Senate has given me.” Now, we understand that’s a facade, but the fact that they had to create this facade at all is very important.
Lex Fridman
Can we actually just linger on that? I mean, how much of this… ‘Cause you said they had to create this facade. Did Augustus, who started the whole thing, the first emperor of Rome, did he have to act that way? ‘Cause he kept acting like he’s not an absolute- … monarch, and he could have gone hardcore, destroy the Senate, just full hardcore rule, dictatorship.
Can we actually just linger on that? I mean, how much of this… ‘Cause you said they had to create this facade. Did Augustus, who started the whole thing, the first emperor of Rome, did he have to act that way? ‘Cause he kept acting like he’s not an absolute- … monarch, and he could have gone hardcore, destroy the Senate, just full hardcore rule, dictatorship.
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, then how, how does he govern then?
Well, then how, how does he govern then?
Lex Fridman
So, so he wants to be an effective governor, And he also wants to not be overthrown.
So, so he wants to be an effective governor, And he also wants to not be overthrown.
Anthony Kaldellis
Exactly. Because, you know, just because you ended one civil war doesn’t mean that there’s not going to be another. You have to create a consensus such that people don’t want to have another civil war. If he did what you said, which he in theory could have done, but that would’ve just led to more wars, right? So the problem is that the emperors, even those who come to power through violence, they can’t prevent other people from trying to come to power through violence because like I said, no one has a right to the throne.
Exactly. Because, you know, just because you ended one civil war doesn’t mean that there’s not going to be another. You have to create a consensus such that people don’t want to have another civil war. If he did what you said, which he in theory could have done, but that would’ve just led to more wars, right? So the problem is that the emperors, even those who come to power through violence, they can’t prevent other people from trying to come to power through violence because like I said, no one has a right to the throne.
Lex Fridman
We should also say one more thing where, dare I carefully say this, but it seems like riots and civil wars is a feature, not a bug of the system. This is a different thing that we have to the modern day, is because the threat of a civil war, a violent civil war where you overthrow the government and there’s just a lot of- … death and struggle for power is always a threat. That’s another incentive that, I guess the stick, not the carrot, but the stick for the emperor to behave.
We should also say one more thing where, dare I carefully say this, but it seems like riots and civil wars is a feature, not a bug of the system. This is a different thing that we have to the modern day, is because the threat of a civil war, a violent civil war where you overthrow the government and there’s just a lot of- … death and struggle for power is always a threat. That’s another incentive that, I guess the stick, not the carrot, but the stick for the emperor to behave.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. It’s the main one. In other words, just take the thousand years that I study. There’s something like 120 civil wars. Now, these are usually very swift. They’re over quickly, and they’re never about ideology. So they’re not like modern civil wars. Right? It’s not about slavery or the rights of kings or whatever. No, no, no. They’re solely about who has the power. All sides have the same ideology. They talk about, you know, the responsibility of government in the same way, right? They’re just competing over who’s the best man to do the job. Right? And so once you have that situation… And it might not be a civil war, it could be a palace coup, it could be a kind of fighting in the capital-
Yes. It’s the main one. In other words, just take the thousand years that I study. There’s something like 120 civil wars. Now, these are usually very swift. They’re over quickly, and they’re never about ideology. So they’re not like modern civil wars. Right? It’s not about slavery or the rights of kings or whatever. No, no, no. They’re solely about who has the power. All sides have the same ideology. They talk about, you know, the responsibility of government in the same way, right? They’re just competing over who’s the best man to do the job. Right? And so once you have that situation… And it might not be a civil war, it could be a palace coup, it could be a kind of fighting in the capital-
Anthony Kaldellis
… something like that. Once everyone’s taken their side and you have a winner, that’s the emperor and you often overthrow the previous regime. I’ll give you some statistics. Something like 46% of the emperors of Constantinople are overthrown through violence. 46%. And that’s almost half.
… something like that. Once everyone’s taken their side and you have a winner, that’s the emperor and you often overthrow the previous regime. I’ll give you some statistics. Something like 46% of the emperors of Constantinople are overthrown through violence. 46%. And that’s almost half.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? So that’s a huge, that’s a huge number, which means that every emperor is vulnerable and insecure, and they know it, right? So what they have to do is make sure that that doesn’t happen to them, and the way to do that is not by arresting and executing everybody you think might be a threat or just generally behaving like a, you know, a Caligula or a Nero. That will just get you killed. Like, they know this. So the best way to avoid that fate is to actually do the things that will make people happy so that they don’t support a rebel if a rebel decides to appear. And sometimes rebels would appear. There’s a kind of convention in Constantinople, like if you…
Right? So that’s a huge, that’s a huge number, which means that every emperor is vulnerable and insecure, and they know it, right? So what they have to do is make sure that that doesn’t happen to them, and the way to do that is not by arresting and executing everybody you think might be a threat or just generally behaving like a, you know, a Caligula or a Nero. That will just get you killed. Like, they know this. So the best way to avoid that fate is to actually do the things that will make people happy so that they don’t support a rebel if a rebel decides to appear. And sometimes rebels would appear. There’s a kind of convention in Constantinople, like if you…
Anthony Kaldellis
Sometimes you think, “Hmm, that emperor’s pretty unpopular and I think I can overthrow him.” What you would do is you would march down the center boulevard- … And, you know, you’d have your people just call the populace of Constantinople out to rally, to you know, maybe go to Hagia Sophia, the church, and just create a big crowd and call for the deposition of the emperor and, you know, maybe that would- And sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn’t, and the rebel or wannabe rebel would sort of proceed down the, the Mese, the boulevard, and people would just gradually just disappear, and then he’d be left alone- … and go up to Hagia Sophia as, as seeking asylum. Right? So that’s a bid.
Sometimes you think, “Hmm, that emperor’s pretty unpopular and I think I can overthrow him.” What you would do is you would march down the center boulevard- … And, you know, you’d have your people just call the populace of Constantinople out to rally, to you know, maybe go to Hagia Sophia, the church, and just create a big crowd and call for the deposition of the emperor and, you know, maybe that would- And sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn’t, and the rebel or wannabe rebel would sort of proceed down the, the Mese, the boulevard, and people would just gradually just disappear, and then he’d be left alone- … and go up to Hagia Sophia as, as seeking asylum. Right? So that’s a bid.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s someone making a bid for the throne, and it just goes disastrously bad. Other times, the people come out ’cause they hate the emperor, and they drag the emperor out and cut his nose off or whatever. So emperors are constantly trying to prevent that from happening, and the best way to do that is through goodwill.
That’s someone making a bid for the throne, and it just goes disastrously bad. Other times, the people come out ’cause they hate the emperor, and they drag the emperor out and cut his nose off or whatever. So emperors are constantly trying to prevent that from happening, and the best way to do that is through goodwill.
Lex Fridman
I’m trying to load in that kind of world ’cause it’s a different world than we live in today.
I’m trying to load in that kind of world ’cause it’s a different world than we live in today.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
There’s a constant inner workings of policy development inside government.
There’s a constant inner workings of policy development inside government.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
But the check on power is, like, literal, like, “We will murder you.”
But the check on power is, like, literal, like, “We will murder you.”
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, it depends on the period. Sometimes murder you, sometimes blind you, sometimes cut your nose off, but there were periods-
Yes, it depends on the period. Sometimes murder you, sometimes blind you, sometimes cut your nose off, but there were periods-
Lex Fridman
Thank you for the nuance.
Thank you for the nuance.
Anthony Kaldellis
… No, there were periods that were more civilized. We’ll just basically, you’ll get retired to a monastery.
… No, there were periods that were more civilized. We’ll just basically, you’ll get retired to a monastery.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Anthony Kaldellis
Okay. You’re right. So here’s what elections do. Elections give a government a mandate for, I don’t know, four or five years, and during that period, you may be unpopular, but you’re legitimate, right, because of the institutions. Whereas in Constantinople, we don’t have those kinds of institutions. We have instead an ongoing referendum. We just call it a perpetual referendum, right?
Okay. You’re right. So here’s what elections do. Elections give a government a mandate for, I don’t know, four or five years, and during that period, you may be unpopular, but you’re legitimate, right, because of the institutions. Whereas in Constantinople, we don’t have those kinds of institutions. We have instead an ongoing referendum. We just call it a perpetual referendum, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
And in fact, the emperors are, are, they’re conducting opinion polls in a sense because they appear in public. When they appear in public, everyone is expected to cheer and chant acclamations, right, like slogans. Right? So you have 100,000 people in the Hippodrome all chanting, you know, “Worthy” or “Many years for you, Augustus” or something like this. And if that happens, it’s great. But if you appear in the Hippodrome and people are, like, sullen or if the chanting is a bit tepid or if they’re booing, then you know something’s wrong, right? So you gotta find out what’s wrong. It could be something like the grain supply is, is, you know, not working or whatever. And so emperors are desperate to fix those problems.
And in fact, the emperors are, are, they’re conducting opinion polls in a sense because they appear in public. When they appear in public, everyone is expected to cheer and chant acclamations, right, like slogans. Right? So you have 100,000 people in the Hippodrome all chanting, you know, “Worthy” or “Many years for you, Augustus” or something like this. And if that happens, it’s great. But if you appear in the Hippodrome and people are, like, sullen or if the chanting is a bit tepid or if they’re booing, then you know something’s wrong, right? So you gotta find out what’s wrong. It could be something like the grain supply is, is, you know, not working or whatever. And so emperors are desperate to fix those problems.
Lex Fridman
And the Hippodrome is this big gathering place in Constantinople, which I guess a lot of people gathered at and did this kind of cheering or not cheering based on policy and—
And the Hippodrome is this big gathering place in Constantinople, which I guess a lot of people gathered at and did this kind of cheering or not cheering based on policy and—
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah
Yeah
Lex Fridman
… and whether the emperor is popular or not. This was democracy. I apologize to use that term, but-
… and whether the emperor is popular or not. This was democracy. I apologize to use that term, but-
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah
Lex Fridman
… in our conception of what that means, because what do we mean by democracy in the modern day is that the people somehow have a connection to who leads and how they lead, and this is—the Hippodrome was that connection between the people and the leaders.
… in our conception of what that means, because what do we mean by democracy in the modern day is that the people somehow have a connection to who leads and how they lead, and this is—the Hippodrome was that connection between the people and the leaders.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. Now, we can talk about modern democracy if you want. That’s a, I have my own views about- … modern democracy and, you know, how it works and how it doesn’t and, anyway, whether it is democracy, in fact, ’cause there are other models of democracy, like-
Yes. Now, we can talk about modern democracy if you want. That’s a, I have my own views about- … modern democracy and, you know, how it works and how it doesn’t and, anyway, whether it is democracy, in fact, ’cause there are other models of democracy, like-
Anthony Kaldellis
… ancient Athenian democracy, which is a whole other thing. But you’re right. So it’s not just in the Hippodrome. It’s wherever people assemble in large numbers. So this could be military mustering grounds, right? So the army. The army is also the Roman people in a way, and in some cases, the most decisive part of it, right? So if an army gathers together and they decide they want a different emperor, that’s serious, and that can happen out in the provinces too. That doesn’t necessarily have to happen in Constantinople. There’s also Hagia Sophia, so the people gather in the church, or they gather in public spaces like the Forum of Constantine.
… ancient Athenian democracy, which is a whole other thing. But you’re right. So it’s not just in the Hippodrome. It’s wherever people assemble in large numbers. So this could be military mustering grounds, right? So the army. The army is also the Roman people in a way, and in some cases, the most decisive part of it, right? So if an army gathers together and they decide they want a different emperor, that’s serious, and that can happen out in the provinces too. That doesn’t necessarily have to happen in Constantinople. There’s also Hagia Sophia, so the people gather in the church, or they gather in public spaces like the Forum of Constantine.
Anthony Kaldellis
So this can happen anywhere where a large number of people can gather, and it’s, I don’t know if you wanna call it a democracy as such, but it is definitely a form of popular, let’s say, consultation and a testing of consensus. I’ll give you another example. So in the 1190s, the emperor—and it’s Alexius III—he’s being threatened by the German emperor. German emperor’s basically, “You, you, you pay me a bunch of money or I’ll invade.” Just straight up extortion. And Alexius decides, “Okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna gather this money. I’m gonna impose these taxes.” And he gathers the people in the Hippodrome, and he says, “You know, we’re gonna have the German tax.”
So this can happen anywhere where a large number of people can gather, and it’s, I don’t know if you wanna call it a democracy as such, but it is definitely a form of popular, let’s say, consultation and a testing of consensus. I’ll give you another example. So in the 1190s, the emperor—and it’s Alexius III—he’s being threatened by the German emperor. German emperor’s basically, “You, you, you pay me a bunch of money or I’ll invade.” Just straight up extortion. And Alexius decides, “Okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna gather this money. I’m gonna impose these taxes.” And he gathers the people in the Hippodrome, and he says, “You know, we’re gonna have the German tax.”
Anthony Kaldellis
He called it the German tax. And there’s such an uproar in the Hippodrome against this that he was like, “Uh, that wasn’t my idea. I don’t know where that came from. No, never mind. We’re not gonna have the German tax.” Fortunately, the German emperor died and, and nothing ever happened, but it gives you a sense of how emperors, like, literally can backtrack when they see that the people are against something in a matter of policy, right— … like tax policy. So yeah, there was this give and take. So institutionally, the emperor might look absolute, as you called him earlier. In practice, no. No. The ones that did that didn’t end well.
He called it the German tax. And there’s such an uproar in the Hippodrome against this that he was like, “Uh, that wasn’t my idea. I don’t know where that came from. No, never mind. We’re not gonna have the German tax.” Fortunately, the German emperor died and, and nothing ever happened, but it gives you a sense of how emperors, like, literally can backtrack when they see that the people are against something in a matter of policy, right— … like tax policy. So yeah, there was this give and take. So institutionally, the emperor might look absolute, as you called him earlier. In practice, no. No. The ones that did that didn’t end well.
Lex Fridman
And we should say, going to Perplexity here, the Hippodrome of Constantinople was the main stadium and social center of the Byzantine capital, used primarily for chariot racing and imperial ceremony, and today survives in Istanbul’s Sultanahmet district. And the reason I looked this up, I wanted to see how many people. Shaped as a long U-shaped race course with a central barrier and tiered seating, it may have held from roughly thirty thousand up to a hundred thousand spectators, though exact capacity’s debated because archeological remains are limited. That’s a lot of people.
And we should say, going to Perplexity here, the Hippodrome of Constantinople was the main stadium and social center of the Byzantine capital, used primarily for chariot racing and imperial ceremony, and today survives in Istanbul’s Sultanahmet district. And the reason I looked this up, I wanted to see how many people. Shaped as a long U-shaped race course with a central barrier and tiered seating, it may have held from roughly thirty thousand up to a hundred thousand spectators, though exact capacity’s debated because archeological remains are limited. That’s a lot of people.
Anthony Kaldellis
Thirty thousand is definitely a pretty un-underestimate. The Hippodrome is still there. I mean, you can see it from, it’s like satellite photos. The shape of it is still there.
Thirty thousand is definitely a pretty un-underestimate. The Hippodrome is still there. I mean, you can see it from, it’s like satellite photos. The shape of it is still there.
Anthony Kaldellis
And actually some parts of the build, the, the Sphendone, the, the sling around the southern side is still there. You can walk around it. And it’s right next to the palace. In other words, emperors didn’t have to go far. Now, sometimes there are events for replacing an emperor. So say the emperor dies in his sleep, and there’s no heir. This happens in 491, for example. And so the people gather in the Hippodrome in order to have a discussion with the court about whom to appoint. Now, in those kinds of contexts, it’s entirely possible that there are people also in the arena, like not just in the stands. I think some military units might have just been arrayed there rather than in the stands.
And actually some parts of the build, the, the Sphendone, the, the sling around the southern side is still there. You can walk around it. And it’s right next to the palace. In other words, emperors didn’t have to go far. Now, sometimes there are events for replacing an emperor. So say the emperor dies in his sleep, and there’s no heir. This happens in 491, for example. And so the people gather in the Hippodrome in order to have a discussion with the court about whom to appoint. Now, in those kinds of contexts, it’s entirely possible that there are people also in the arena, like not just in the stands. I think some military units might have just been arrayed there rather than in the stands.
Anthony Kaldellis
So you can get more people than what we project might fit in the stands, ’cause they’re not having the races on that day.
So you can get more people than what we project might fit in the stands, ’cause they’re not having the races on that day.
Lex Fridman
We should say, so like, I think the thing that was emphasized in the first paragraph is the, the athletic events and the entertainment events, right? Like the imperial ceremony. But there is a, a sort of a political gathering was also popular. The Hippodrome was not just for sport. It was where emperors appeared before the people, where acclamations, public punishments, and political demonstrations took place, and where the rival circus factions, blues, greens, reds, whites, became powerful social and sometimes paramilitary forces. And this goes on and on and on. So this was a place—
We should say, so like, I think the thing that was emphasized in the first paragraph is the, the athletic events and the entertainment events, right? Like the imperial ceremony. But there is a, a sort of a political gathering was also popular. The Hippodrome was not just for sport. It was where emperors appeared before the people, where acclamations, public punishments, and political demonstrations took place, and where the rival circus factions, blues, greens, reds, whites, became powerful social and sometimes paramilitary forces. And this goes on and on and on. So this was a place—
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, it’s a very important place. Yeah
Oh, it’s a very important place. Yeah
Lex Fridman
… for people to speak to the leader.
… for people to speak to the leader.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. Vent sometimes. Even insult them.
Yeah. Vent sometimes. Even insult them.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. This is fascinating. I mean, it’s human civilization. It’s converged towards a mechanism that has clearly worked, because for the empire in the East stood for a thousand years. So it’s, it’s fascinating. We as humans, throughout our history, we try to figure out, okay, how do we figure out how to govern large collections of humans in a way that they’re represented, in the way that they don’t riot, they don’t rebel. In the way that we flourish together as a people, all this, all this kind of stuff. So this is a real… The East Roman Empire is a real study of something that seemed to have worked. There’s lessons there even for the modern times, I think. And modern times, again, is very early human civilization.
Yeah. This is fascinating. I mean, it’s human civilization. It’s converged towards a mechanism that has clearly worked, because for the empire in the East stood for a thousand years. So it’s, it’s fascinating. We as humans, throughout our history, we try to figure out, okay, how do we figure out how to govern large collections of humans in a way that they’re represented, in the way that they don’t riot, they don’t rebel. In the way that we flourish together as a people, all this, all this kind of stuff. So this is a real… The East Roman Empire is a real study of something that seemed to have worked. There’s lessons there even for the modern times, I think. And modern times, again, is very early human civilization.
Anthony Kaldellis
From a certain standpoint, yes, we are still early in—
From a certain standpoint, yes, we are still early in—
Lex Fridman
Trying to figure it out
Trying to figure it out
Anthony Kaldellis
… trying to figure it out. Yes. Now, mind you, I’m not advocating for this type of social organization and government. What I’m trying to do as a historian is understand how and why it survived and also to find the ways that it worked, because it did work. We know that much. We have to start from that. It survived. It was resilient. There was a lot of, you know, give and take in the exercise of power, and I want to understand the mechanisms of that.
… trying to figure it out. Yes. Now, mind you, I’m not advocating for this type of social organization and government. What I’m trying to do as a historian is understand how and why it survived and also to find the ways that it worked, because it did work. We know that much. We have to start from that. It survived. It was resilient. There was a lot of, you know, give and take in the exercise of power, and I want to understand the mechanisms of that.
Edict of Caracalla
Lex Fridman
So if we can, before we go to Emperor Constantine the First and the founding of Constantinople, can we look at some maybe seminal events that led up to some of the topics we’ll be talking about? So one of them, maybe tell me if this is not as interesting as I think it is, but the Edict of Caracalla in 212 AD. So this is where you described that starting with Augustus in the early imperial period, government saw itself as a protector of the Roman citizens, which is a minority of the people living in the Roman Empire. It doesn’t consider the provincials. And then you described that the Edict of Caracalla extended full Roman citizenships to basically all free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. So what is it? Why was it done? Why is it important? And how did it change the Roman Empire?
So if we can, before we go to Emperor Constantine the First and the founding of Constantinople, can we look at some maybe seminal events that led up to some of the topics we’ll be talking about? So one of them, maybe tell me if this is not as interesting as I think it is, but the Edict of Caracalla in 212 AD. So this is where you described that starting with Augustus in the early imperial period, government saw itself as a protector of the Roman citizens, which is a minority of the people living in the Roman Empire. It doesn’t consider the provincials. And then you described that the Edict of Caracalla extended full Roman citizenships to basically all free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. So what is it? Why was it done? Why is it important? And how did it change the Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
Right. I agree with you that this is, in fact, a very important… It’s a, it’s a real turning point in a sense, but it also is part of a process. So for various reasons, the Roman polity tended to bestow its metropolitan citizenship, that is, Roman citizenship on its allies, and eventually in time, on many people that it had conquered. And it had various mechanisms for doing so. It could bestow block grants. Sometimes it allowed its generals to bestow citizenship on people they thought would, you know, would be necessary players for controlling local societies. Sometimes they even allowed foreign cities to, like non-Roman cities, to decide who would get Roman citizenship by basically electing them to certain kinds of offices.
Right. I agree with you that this is, in fact, a very important… It’s a, it’s a real turning point in a sense, but it also is part of a process. So for various reasons, the Roman polity tended to bestow its metropolitan citizenship, that is, Roman citizenship on its allies, and eventually in time, on many people that it had conquered. And it had various mechanisms for doing so. It could bestow block grants. Sometimes it allowed its generals to bestow citizenship on people they thought would, you know, would be necessary players for controlling local societies. Sometimes they even allowed foreign cities to, like non-Roman cities, to decide who would get Roman citizenship by basically electing them to certain kinds of offices.
Anthony Kaldellis
Like they, they outsourced a lot of this. And so you have over time the steady growth of a Roman community of citizens who are not all in Rome, and who are not all of Roman origin, whatever that means, but they, they were not descended from people who were from Rome. And this proceeds, you know, it expands, it expands, it expands. By Caracalla’s time, so early third century AD, we can estimate that maybe at, at most a third of the free citizens of the empire are Roman citizens. Everyone else has local citizenship, like you’re Alexandrian or Athenian or, or whatever. And with… You’re subject to those laws. This emperor, Caracalla, now that’s his nickname. His reigning name is Marcus Aurelius Antoninus. So just like Marcus Aurelius, it’s the same name two generations later.
Like they, they outsourced a lot of this. And so you have over time the steady growth of a Roman community of citizens who are not all in Rome, and who are not all of Roman origin, whatever that means, but they, they were not descended from people who were from Rome. And this proceeds, you know, it expands, it expands, it expands. By Caracalla’s time, so early third century AD, we can estimate that maybe at, at most a third of the free citizens of the empire are Roman citizens. Everyone else has local citizenship, like you’re Alexandrian or Athenian or, or whatever. And with… You’re subject to those laws. This emperor, Caracalla, now that’s his nickname. His reigning name is Marcus Aurelius Antoninus. So just like Marcus Aurelius, it’s the same name two generations later.
Lex Fridman
Some badass names for emperors, by the way. I don’t know if it’s the chicken or the egg, but just- … some epic names.
Some badass names for emperors, by the way. I don’t know if it’s the chicken or the egg, but just- … some epic names.
Anthony Kaldellis
They’ve been remembered that way, and so we read that back into the name-
They’ve been remembered that way, and so we read that back into the name-
Lex Fridman
Yes, that’s true.
Yes, that’s true.
Anthony Kaldellis
… and absolutely, yes.
… and absolutely, yes.
Lex Fridman
But anyway, Caracalla. Yeah.
But anyway, Caracalla. Yeah.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, so he issues this edict in 212 called the Constitutio Antoniniana, named after him. Some people at the time called it the Divine Decree, which basically extended citizenship to everybody. Now, we don’t know exactly why he did so. We can guess the reasons that he said he did so, and this was for religious reasons. In other words, he wanted people to go to the temples and pray and give thanks to the gods for him, for his survival out of a coup.
Yeah, so he issues this edict in 212 called the Constitutio Antoniniana, named after him. Some people at the time called it the Divine Decree, which basically extended citizenship to everybody. Now, we don’t know exactly why he did so. We can guess the reasons that he said he did so, and this was for religious reasons. In other words, he wanted people to go to the temples and pray and give thanks to the gods for him, for his survival out of a coup.
Anthony Kaldellis
Which is whatever. And it’s possible that there was some kind of religious motivation here, and he wanted everybody to do so as Roman citizens to honor the Roman gods and something like that. Other historians at the time said he did it for tax reasons. We don’t know exactly. There might even have been a kind of ideology of a unified community across the empire playing in his, if not in his mind, in that of the jurists, that is the legal advisors that he had. So that’s possible. But less interesting than his motivations, more interesting are the consequences of this—
Which is whatever. And it’s possible that there was some kind of religious motivation here, and he wanted everybody to do so as Roman citizens to honor the Roman gods and something like that. Other historians at the time said he did it for tax reasons. We don’t know exactly. There might even have been a kind of ideology of a unified community across the empire playing in his, if not in his mind, in that of the jurists, that is the legal advisors that he had. So that’s possible. But less interesting than his motivations, more interesting are the consequences of this—
Anthony Kaldellis
… and what it tells us about the Roman community. So imagine a situation where, like, no modern empire has ever done this really, right? When what’s significant about the Roman case is that not only did they extend citizenship to everybody, but they meant it. This is something that had teeth. In other words, it meant that the rights and opportunities that were available to Roman citizens, say, in the Roman Senate at Rome- … are now available to everybody. And within a generation, you have a situation where, like, all of the emperors are provincials, right? All the most powerful people in the empire are from the provinces.
… and what it tells us about the Roman community. So imagine a situation where, like, no modern empire has ever done this really, right? When what’s significant about the Roman case is that not only did they extend citizenship to everybody, but they meant it. This is something that had teeth. In other words, it meant that the rights and opportunities that were available to Roman citizens, say, in the Roman Senate at Rome- … are now available to everybody. And within a generation, you have a situation where, like, all of the emperors are provincials, right? All the most powerful people in the empire are from the provinces.
Lex Fridman
This is, like, mind-breaking, mind-blowing. This is incredible. The fact that the Roman Empire was able to do this, and it stuck.
This is, like, mind-breaking, mind-blowing. This is incredible. The fact that the Roman Empire was able to do this, and it stuck.
Anthony Kaldellis
They did it, and they meant it.
They did it, and they meant it.
Lex Fridman
And they meant it.
And they meant it.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
They implemented it. It was real. That tells you, that’s an important thing that tells you a lot of information about the populace of the Roman Empire. That the fact that it stuck, that the government meant it, that the system encouraged, incentivized the government to mean it. It’s incredible.
They implemented it. It was real. That tells you, that’s an important thing that tells you a lot of information about the populace of the Roman Empire. That the fact that it stuck, that the government meant it, that the system encouraged, incentivized the government to mean it. It’s incredible.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, and there’s a law of citizenship, and it, basically it says something like, “Anyone born within the Roman Empire is a Roman citizen.” And the Roman jurists and policymakers who were behind this had some very interesting ideas about, you know, creating this kind of community. Look, like, imagine if, I mean, it’s almost impossible to, to imagine, but the, the British at the time of the peak of the empire bestowed British citizenship on everyone, including in India, and, like, suddenly made positions of power in London available to people from India, like, including the throne. Like, it’s just unthinkable.
Yeah, and there’s a law of citizenship, and it, basically it says something like, “Anyone born within the Roman Empire is a Roman citizen.” And the Roman jurists and policymakers who were behind this had some very interesting ideas about, you know, creating this kind of community. Look, like, imagine if, I mean, it’s almost impossible to, to imagine, but the, the British at the time of the peak of the empire bestowed British citizenship on everyone, including in India, and, like, suddenly made positions of power in London available to people from India, like, including the throne. Like, it’s just unthinkable.
Anthony Kaldellis
And that has to do, you know, with race and colonialism and all kinds of things, right? But not in the Roman Empire. So we have a situation where the emperors are all from the provinces. The most powerful officials are all from the provinces. And so a century later, when Constantinople is created, this is, it’s created, right, like, in, in the Bosporus, so, like, where modern Istanbul is, in the Eastern Roman Empire. It’s created within the preexisting Roman context, right? It doesn’t bring Romanness to the East. It’s already there. And so it’s not such a leap to create a center of Roman power in the East because of that.
And that has to do, you know, with race and colonialism and all kinds of things, right? But not in the Roman Empire. So we have a situation where the emperors are all from the provinces. The most powerful officials are all from the provinces. And so a century later, when Constantinople is created, this is, it’s created, right, like, in, in the Bosporus, so, like, where modern Istanbul is, in the Eastern Roman Empire. It’s created within the preexisting Roman context, right? It doesn’t bring Romanness to the East. It’s already there. And so it’s not such a leap to create a center of Roman power in the East because of that.
Lex Fridman
And you’ve helped put together a book on the history of intellectual thought in the East Roman Empire. But this is the interesting thing here, and I can ask that many times, but let me ask it here also, is the great man, the great woman view of history. Were there, like, Thomas Jefferson or those types of characters in the meetings as, as, as they’re executing on the edict or developing the edict? Is that important, or is it more about the system and the culture and just… … Is it, how important was it? ‘Cause this seems like a revolutionary idea, and when we think about the American Revolution and the founding documents, it seems like a few individuals-
And you’ve helped put together a book on the history of intellectual thought in the East Roman Empire. But this is the interesting thing here, and I can ask that many times, but let me ask it here also, is the great man, the great woman view of history. Were there, like, Thomas Jefferson or those types of characters in the meetings as, as, as they’re executing on the edict or developing the edict? Is that important, or is it more about the system and the culture and just… … Is it, how important was it? ‘Cause this seems like a revolutionary idea, and when we think about the American Revolution and the founding documents, it seems like a few individuals-
Lex Fridman
… were really critical about the wording of things, and then words matter because those words create the reality, and then it propagates through time.
… were really critical about the wording of things, and then words matter because those words create the reality, and then it propagates through time.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. For the edict, I suspect that yes, there were a few people who were behind it, and quite possibly jurists, that is, Roman legal scholars. And 212 is in an age of very important Roman legal scholars: Ulpian, for example, and others. But we just don’t have those… We have- … minutes of the meetings for the- … American Revolution. Not only do we not know who was in the room, we don’t actually even have the whole edict. We have a papyrus fragment, this is a piece of ancient paper- … that’s mostly torn and mutilated, and we have, like, a bit of a paragraph from it.
Yeah. For the edict, I suspect that yes, there were a few people who were behind it, and quite possibly jurists, that is, Roman legal scholars. And 212 is in an age of very important Roman legal scholars: Ulpian, for example, and others. But we just don’t have those… We have- … minutes of the meetings for the- … American Revolution. Not only do we not know who was in the room, we don’t actually even have the whole edict. We have a papyrus fragment, this is a piece of ancient paper- … that’s mostly torn and mutilated, and we have, like, a bit of a paragraph from it.
Anthony Kaldellis
In Greek, not even the Latin original. And it’s kind of torn, but it actually preserves the key clause. Right? And that’s, that’s all we have of the original. We have contemporary sources that mention it, we have legal documents, but nothing like a, like we can talk about the people involved in it. Or even how it was immediately implemented. Like, suddenly we know everyone in the provinces, like, there’s this explosion in the number of people called Aurelius, because that was his, his Roman family name. And so when you acquired citizenship from that edict, you became an Aurelius. Right? And there are lots of Aurelii suddenly all over the place. Like, we can see it immediately. But we can’t actually see the implementation.
In Greek, not even the Latin original. And it’s kind of torn, but it actually preserves the key clause. Right? And that’s, that’s all we have of the original. We have contemporary sources that mention it, we have legal documents, but nothing like a, like we can talk about the people involved in it. Or even how it was immediately implemented. Like, suddenly we know everyone in the provinces, like, there’s this explosion in the number of people called Aurelius, because that was his, his Roman family name. And so when you acquired citizenship from that edict, you became an Aurelius. Right? And there are lots of Aurelii suddenly all over the place. Like, we can see it immediately. But we can’t actually see the implementation.
Lex Fridman
But your instinct says that it was very, individuals were very important in the development of that idea and execution of it.
But your instinct says that it was very, individuals were very important in the development of that idea and execution of it.
Anthony Kaldellis
Probably, yeah. Yeah. Even though it’s part of a long-term process of expanding Roman citizenship, this was an explosion, not just an expansion.
Probably, yeah. Yeah. Even though it’s part of a long-term process of expanding Roman citizenship, this was an explosion, not just an expansion.
Lex Fridman
And then you said that one of the important aspects about this edict is that giving equal rights to provincials was one of the things that helped deal with the crisis of the third century, and was the thing that, I think you said, quote, “sapped discontent from the relevant populations,” which then minimized the probability of uprisings.
And then you said that one of the important aspects about this edict is that giving equal rights to provincials was one of the things that helped deal with the crisis of the third century, and was the thing that, I think you said, quote, “sapped discontent from the relevant populations,” which then minimized the probability of uprisings.
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, now that’s a very long-term process. Now, the third century is chaos, there’s a crisis, it’s a mess, right? So what follows the edict is quite a few decades of unrest.
Well, now that’s a very long-term process. Now, the third century is chaos, there’s a crisis, it’s a mess, right? So what follows the edict is quite a few decades of unrest.
Lex Fridman
Okay, let’s put it mildly. Let’s talk about the crisis of the third century, where 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.
Okay, let’s put it mildly. Let’s talk about the crisis of the third century, where 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. It’s tremendous instability.
Yes. It’s tremendous instability.
Lex Fridman
So there’s civil wars nonstop. Almost all of these emperors were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague- … from 249 to 262 AD, which is a pandemic, possibly smallpox or Ebola. It killed up to 5,000 people a day in Rome alone, devastating the tax base and army recruitment pool. And the empire fractured into three pieces, but then Emperor Aurelian miraculously reconquered them in a period of five years. So just a lot of chaos. It, it deserves the name, the Crisis of the Third Century.
So there’s civil wars nonstop. Almost all of these emperors were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there’s a plague- … from 249 to 262 AD, which is a pandemic, possibly smallpox or Ebola. It killed up to 5,000 people a day in Rome alone, devastating the tax base and army recruitment pool. And the empire fractured into three pieces, but then Emperor Aurelian miraculously reconquered them in a period of five years. So just a lot of chaos. It, it deserves the name, the Crisis of the Third Century.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, it’s a perfect storm. Yeah, I mean, you have a crisis of imperial legitimacy. Basically, the army’s proclaiming emperors left and right. In an odd sense, ironically, this is in part because there are now a lot more stakeholders in the Roman tradition, right? There’s all of these provincial armies, and they’re appointing their generals as rival emperors. But you also have a serious uptick in foreign invasions.
Yeah, it’s a perfect storm. Yeah, I mean, you have a crisis of imperial legitimacy. Basically, the army’s proclaiming emperors left and right. In an odd sense, ironically, this is in part because there are now a lot more stakeholders in the Roman tradition, right? There’s all of these provincial armies, and they’re appointing their generals as rival emperors. But you also have a serious uptick in foreign invasions.
Anthony Kaldellis
In the north, you have the creation of the Sasanian Persian or Iranian Empire in the east, and this was very, very bellicose. So lots of foreign defeats. Armies are defeated by, you know, like, quote, “barbarian enemies.” You have eventually inflation, and you have plague. And so under the pressure, right, of all of those forces, it almost fell apart. Now, it didn’t actually. Inevitably, there are also historians who downplay the crisis. Of course, right, like, and legitimately so, right? We must push back against every of these characterizations.
In the north, you have the creation of the Sasanian Persian or Iranian Empire in the east, and this was very, very bellicose. So lots of foreign defeats. Armies are defeated by, you know, like, quote, “barbarian enemies.” You have eventually inflation, and you have plague. And so under the pressure, right, of all of those forces, it almost fell apart. Now, it didn’t actually. Inevitably, there are also historians who downplay the crisis. Of course, right, like, and legitimately so, right? We must push back against every of these characterizations.
Lex Fridman
26 emperors died, bro. What do you-
26 emperors died, bro. What do you-
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s just the emperors. That’s just the emperors. We’re… No, we should be l-
That’s just the emperors. That’s just the emperors. We’re… No, we should be l-
Lex Fridman
I’m sorry. In 50 years. Every other year, emperor dead.
I’m sorry. In 50 years. Every other year, emperor dead.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, that’s-
Yeah, that’s-
Lex Fridman
Civil war
Civil war
Anthony Kaldellis
… that’s political instability at the top, right? But what-
… that’s political instability at the top, right? But what-
Lex Fridman
Right, that’s not-
Right, that’s not-
Anthony Kaldellis
… what are the lives of most people? So if you go to Egypt, for example, which is kind of out of the… Right? What’s going on there? How are people living there? And we can see how people are living in Egypt because we have all these papyrus documents from Egypt.
… what are the lives of most people? So if you go to Egypt, for example, which is kind of out of the… Right? What’s going on there? How are people living there? And we can see how people are living in Egypt because we have all these papyrus documents from Egypt.
Lex Fridman
That’s true.
That’s true.
Anthony Kaldellis
And for the most part, they don’t seem to be experiencing a crisis.
And for the most part, they don’t seem to be experiencing a crisis.
Lex Fridman
I mean, this is something you talk about. Constantine, as we’ll get to him, is one of the most murderous leaders in all of human history, if you consider his own family. But if you’re living in the provinces, you know there’s… He’s not-
I mean, this is something you talk about. Constantine, as we’ll get to him, is one of the most murderous leaders in all of human history, if you consider his own family. But if you’re living in the provinces, you know there’s… He’s not-
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yeah, yeah
Oh, yeah, yeah
Lex Fridman
… he’s not that murderous.
… he’s not that murderous.
Anthony Kaldellis
No, no, no, he’s perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah.
No, no, no, he’s perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah.
Crisis of the Third Century
Lex Fridman
So it’s very important to actually remember about what the actual experience of the average citizen of the empire is like. Fair. Okay, so but how… Maybe there’s more we could say about the crisis. And then, of course, the crisis is in part resolved by Diocletian as he does a hard reset on the structure of the Roman system of government. So maybe you could speak a little bit more to the crisis that’s important for us to understand, and how Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD.
So it’s very important to actually remember about what the actual experience of the average citizen of the empire is like. Fair. Okay, so but how… Maybe there’s more we could say about the crisis. And then, of course, the crisis is in part resolved by Diocletian as he does a hard reset on the structure of the Roman system of government. So maybe you could speak a little bit more to the crisis that’s important for us to understand, and how Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right. So again, these are processes rather than specific events. So for example, you mentioned that the empire kind of breaks into pieces.
Right. So again, these are processes rather than specific events. So for example, you mentioned that the empire kind of breaks into pieces.
Lex Fridman
Yes.
Yes.
Anthony Kaldellis
And we have what’s called sometime the Empire of the Gauls. Gaul are modern France and sort of Britain, for a while are, for a decade and a half or so, are kind of like this little separatist- … empire. So what’s interesting about that is that this was not an attempt to break away from the empire. In other words, it’s not some discontent provincials who are just tired of Roman rule and wanna break away and do their own thing. No. This is actually just a, it’s an attempt by provincial generals to take the throne, and does it to rule the entire empire. It doesn’t work. They get only as far as the provinces that they take. And the only way that they know to set up a state is to make it a Roman state.
And we have what’s called sometime the Empire of the Gauls. Gaul are modern France and sort of Britain, for a while are, for a decade and a half or so, are kind of like this little separatist- … empire. So what’s interesting about that is that this was not an attempt to break away from the empire. In other words, it’s not some discontent provincials who are just tired of Roman rule and wanna break away and do their own thing. No. This is actually just a, it’s an attempt by provincial generals to take the throne, and does it to rule the entire empire. It doesn’t work. They get only as far as the provinces that they take. And the only way that they know to set up a state is to make it a Roman state.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? Like, that’s the total of their political imaginary is like, “Well, we’re just gonna do a Roman thing here.” And maybe we’ll get, you know, we’ll reunite the empire ourselves, or as happened, Aurelian, that is someone from the other side, will reunite the empire. But it’s always a Roman model. Like, there’s, it’s almost like there’s no alternatives by this point. So that’s interesting. What Diocletian does essentially is the, the way I characterize it sometimes is that he turns the problem into its own solution. In other words, the problem is too many emperors or wanna-be emperors. Because there’s just more going on. Like, one emperor can’t deal with all these problems along the frontiers, with all the political problems.
Right? Like, that’s the total of their political imaginary is like, “Well, we’re just gonna do a Roman thing here.” And maybe we’ll get, you know, we’ll reunite the empire ourselves, or as happened, Aurelian, that is someone from the other side, will reunite the empire. But it’s always a Roman model. Like, there’s, it’s almost like there’s no alternatives by this point. So that’s interesting. What Diocletian does essentially is the, the way I characterize it sometimes is that he turns the problem into its own solution. In other words, the problem is too many emperors or wanna-be emperors. Because there’s just more going on. Like, one emperor can’t deal with all these problems along the frontiers, with all the political problems.
Anthony Kaldellis
So what he does is he deputizes some of his colleagues, people he was on very good terms with from the army. These are all Illyrians. They’re from… By the way, for a few centuries, the emperors are all from this region of the former Yugoslavia that’s the size of Scotland. Like, that’s where they all come from.
So what he does is he deputizes some of his colleagues, people he was on very good terms with from the army. These are all Illyrians. They’re from… By the way, for a few centuries, the emperors are all from this region of the former Yugoslavia that’s the size of Scotland. Like, that’s where they all come from.
Lex Fridman
Well, what explains that?
Well, what explains that?
Anthony Kaldellis
The army. These are military men. Sometimes hard-drinking military men. Very good at their job like Aurelian, you mentioned, right? So there’s a series of Illyrian emperors who restore stability. And the reason why there’s so many Illyrian emperors is ’cause they worked their way up through the ranks of the army. And, you know, the regions of Yugoslavia at that time are sufficiently, you know, economically underdeveloped that there’s a strong incentive for young men to go join the army ’cause, you know, it’s a living.
The army. These are military men. Sometimes hard-drinking military men. Very good at their job like Aurelian, you mentioned, right? So there’s a series of Illyrian emperors who restore stability. And the reason why there’s so many Illyrian emperors is ’cause they worked their way up through the ranks of the army. And, you know, the regions of Yugoslavia at that time are sufficiently, you know, economically underdeveloped that there’s a strong incentive for young men to go join the army ’cause, you know, it’s a living.
Anthony Kaldellis
And so Illyrians become, like, kind of the backbone of the Roman army, and they’re described as these, you know, tough Roman conservative types. I mean, these are, you know, these are, these are tough military guys. I say that to draw a contrast between, say, Hadrian, whom I mentioned earlier- … you know, who was a much more sophisticated, artsy, poetic, cosmopolitan emperor. Also a hard-ass. You did not wanna mess with Hadrian. But these guys from the third century are military men through and through. Like, their whole careers are, are in the army. And they have, like, the military stubble. They’ve got these thick necks. They look angry. They’ve got their hands on their swords. Like, they’re not projecting an image of sort of- … calm and sophisticated, you know, bum-bum, you know.
And so Illyrians become, like, kind of the backbone of the Roman army, and they’re described as these, you know, tough Roman conservative types. I mean, these are, you know, these are, these are tough military guys. I say that to draw a contrast between, say, Hadrian, whom I mentioned earlier- … you know, who was a much more sophisticated, artsy, poetic, cosmopolitan emperor. Also a hard-ass. You did not wanna mess with Hadrian. But these guys from the third century are military men through and through. Like, their whole careers are, are in the army. And they have, like, the military stubble. They’ve got these thick necks. They look angry. They’ve got their hands on their swords. Like, they’re not projecting an image of sort of- … calm and sophisticated, you know, bum-bum, you know.
Lex Fridman
So, military men. … Military men from Aurelian.
So, military men. … Military men from Aurelian.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yep. So Diocletian gets a gang of them together. They, eventually there are four. We call this the Tetrarchy. And he basically allocates them to various… This wasn’t any kind of hard division of the empire. Basically, it was a collaborative project. They each went wherever they were needed.
Yep. So Diocletian gets a gang of them together. They, eventually there are four. We call this the Tetrarchy. And he basically allocates them to various… This wasn’t any kind of hard division of the empire. Basically, it was a collaborative project. They each went wherever they were needed.
Lex Fridman
Was it, is it fair to say that there was four administrative zones? He allocated each one to a zone?
Was it, is it fair to say that there was four administrative zones? He allocated each one to a zone?
Anthony Kaldellis
Broadly. I’d say more military zones. So the administration tends to operate, it kind of humming along in the background wherever these emperors happen to be, right? This is a, we’re talking about a period of big government now. So Diocletian creates a larger government, possibly a larger army, and in order to pay for that, you need more systematic and effective taxation- … which means you need more census, you need more bureaucracy, you need more collect… you know? So it is an era of bigger government.
Broadly. I’d say more military zones. So the administration tends to operate, it kind of humming along in the background wherever these emperors happen to be, right? This is a, we’re talking about a period of big government now. So Diocletian creates a larger government, possibly a larger army, and in order to pay for that, you need more systematic and effective taxation- … which means you need more census, you need more bureaucracy, you need more collect… you know? So it is an era of bigger government.
Lex Fridman
So just to linger on that point- … is it fair to say that Diocletian created the deep state? Quote, “deep state.” So the tax collectors, the, the logistics, the thing that you’ve kinda hinted at, which is the separation of the civil and the military layer of society.
So just to linger on that point- … is it fair to say that Diocletian created the deep state? Quote, “deep state.” So the tax collectors, the, the logistics, the thing that you’ve kinda hinted at, which is the separation of the civil and the military layer of society.
Anthony Kaldellis
So the concept of a deep state, I’ve had discussions about that with experts who work on the idea of the deep state, and I’m not sure that I would characterize the Roman Empire that way, in part because while you do have big government, you do have bureaucracy, you have, you have bureaucrats who are buried in various echelons, and you know, nobody knows exactly what they’re doing and things like that, I have not come across the idea of some sort of sinister elements, you know, who are working within the administrative apparatus to undermine the emperor. Like, from a distance occasionally, you might get glimpses of this kind of thing. Diocletian, for example, once complained that, “Nobody ever tells me anything.” In other words, like, he’s so removed-
So the concept of a deep state, I’ve had discussions about that with experts who work on the idea of the deep state, and I’m not sure that I would characterize the Roman Empire that way, in part because while you do have big government, you do have bureaucracy, you have, you have bureaucrats who are buried in various echelons, and you know, nobody knows exactly what they’re doing and things like that, I have not come across the idea of some sort of sinister elements, you know, who are working within the administrative apparatus to undermine the emperor. Like, from a distance occasionally, you might get glimpses of this kind of thing. Diocletian, for example, once complained that, “Nobody ever tells me anything.” In other words, like, he’s so removed-
Anthony Kaldellis
… in part from the realities of what’s going on on the ground that he felt sometimes he’d lost touch. But I don’t find this kind of idea of undermining imperial power from within the bureaucracy.
… in part from the realities of what’s going on on the ground that he felt sometimes he’d lost touch. But I don’t find this kind of idea of undermining imperial power from within the bureaucracy.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I think the, one of the ways to explain that is because, so, you know, in the modern day, democracy in quotes, there’s a kinda temporary nature to the leader at the top. So it’s incentivized the deep state to form. That, so the deep state thinks of themselves as a thing that propagates long-term periods of time, and then the leader is a very ephemeral short, short-term thing. With a, with an emperor, technically- … you can go for a long time, so it’s best to be integrated deeply. With, the bureaucracy should be integrated with the leader. It makes sense.
Yeah, I think the, one of the ways to explain that is because, so, you know, in the modern day, democracy in quotes, there’s a kinda temporary nature to the leader at the top. So it’s incentivized the deep state to form. That, so the deep state thinks of themselves as a thing that propagates long-term periods of time, and then the leader is a very ephemeral short, short-term thing. With a, with an emperor, technically- … you can go for a long time, so it’s best to be integrated deeply. With, the bureaucracy should be integrated with the leader. It makes sense.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. But al-
Yeah. But al-
Lex Fridman
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Anthony Kaldellis
… also in modern social thought or fear is that the deep state might be undermining, say-
… also in modern social thought or fear is that the deep state might be undermining, say-
Lex Fridman
Undermining, yeah.
Undermining, yeah.
Anthony Kaldellis
… the democracy itself rather than, right, rather than… It can cut both ways.
… the democracy itself rather than, right, rather than… It can cut both ways.
Lex Fridman
But there is a bureaucracy. There is a big government.
But there is a bureaucracy. There is a big government.
Anthony Kaldellis
Absolutely. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
There’s a big machinery.
There’s a big machinery.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, compared to before.
Yeah, compared to before.
Lex Fridman
Before.
Before.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. So Diocletian creates these larger bureaucratic structures, and these are the ones that define the society that I study. So as a specialist, I focus on the period after him mostly. But he implemented those to solve a lot of these problems. He was mostly successful. So in terms of generating revenue from a much more troubled and kind of precarious situation in sustaining large armies and putting down these rebellions and usurpations. And he was generally successful at doing that. So he created the model that they kept for the next, well, three centuries or more.
Yes. So Diocletian creates these larger bureaucratic structures, and these are the ones that define the society that I study. So as a specialist, I focus on the period after him mostly. But he implemented those to solve a lot of these problems. He was mostly successful. So in terms of generating revenue from a much more troubled and kind of precarious situation in sustaining large armies and putting down these rebellions and usurpations. And he was generally successful at doing that. So he created the model that they kept for the next, well, three centuries or more.
Lex Fridman
But a lot of the elements of that model lasted even beyond that, right?
But a lot of the elements of that model lasted even beyond that, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, like universal taxation. I’ll give you an example. Up until then, Italy was exempt from taxes. Italy was the land of the conquerors. The conquerors don’t pay taxes to themselves. The conquerors live off the taxes that others pay, right? So Italy was this big tax haven, right? Diocletian, Galerius, you know, his guys, these guys are from Illyria. They’re from the Balkans.
Yeah, like universal taxation. I’ll give you an example. Up until then, Italy was exempt from taxes. Italy was the land of the conquerors. The conquerors don’t pay taxes to themselves. The conquerors live off the taxes that others pay, right? So Italy was this big tax haven, right? Diocletian, Galerius, you know, his guys, these guys are from Illyria. They’re from the Balkans.
Anthony Kaldellis
Like why is Italy tax-free exactly, you know? That doesn’t make any sense. It’s a very, very wealthy, prosperous part of the world, and so, no, they tax Italy. So now, like, not only do all Romans have the same citizenship and the same law, they all have the same tax system, and the Diocletianic tax code, as it were, it’s not a code, it sounds like a flat tax, which for us sounds regressive. But by those standards, by the standards of that time, it’s actually kind of progressive in a way.
Like why is Italy tax-free exactly, you know? That doesn’t make any sense. It’s a very, very wealthy, prosperous part of the world, and so, no, they tax Italy. So now, like, not only do all Romans have the same citizenship and the same law, they all have the same tax system, and the Diocletianic tax code, as it were, it’s not a code, it sounds like a flat tax, which for us sounds regressive. But by those standards, by the standards of that time, it’s actually kind of progressive in a way.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Anthony Kaldellis
It means that, like, even— … elites paid, like, the same, right? Yeah.
It means that, like, even— … elites paid, like, the same, right? Yeah.
Lex Fridman
So how much of all of this, everything we’ll talk about in the coming centuries, is all about taxation?
So how much of all of this, everything we’ll talk about in the coming centuries, is all about taxation?
Anthony Kaldellis
I think it’s huge. Taxation is the heart of it.
I think it’s huge. Taxation is the heart of it.
Lex Fridman
So I mean, the functioning, the success, the flourishing of a society, the way the government works, the way the people are represented, all of it has to do, all the civil wars and everything, it feels like taxation is at the core.
So I mean, the functioning, the success, the flourishing of a society, the way the government works, the way the people are represented, all of it has to do, all the civil wars and everything, it feels like taxation is at the core.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. Yeah. If you asked me to put my finger on one factor, it would be that.
Yes. Yeah. If you asked me to put my finger on one factor, it would be that.
Lex Fridman
So the taxation system, that feels like the early framework for the East Roman Empire.
So the taxation system, that feels like the early framework for the East Roman Empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
It did create a more sort of homogeneous framework, for sure. By the end of the third century, it’s pretty much in place. What Diocletian does is a universal census, and this is continued by his successors. So every taxable asset in the empire is censused. And so you can now start to have a budget.
It did create a more sort of homogeneous framework, for sure. By the end of the third century, it’s pretty much in place. What Diocletian does is a universal census, and this is continued by his successors. So every taxable asset in the empire is censused. And so you can now start to have a budget.
Lex Fridman
Now, there is some element, and then you push back against that, some element of Diocletian where he legally limited social and class mobility in part for the taxation system, and made it, in many cases, illegal to move and illegal to quit your job. For example, as I read to guarantee the food supply and land tax, farmers were legally forbidden from moving away from the land they worked, so the state always knew who to tax. And then for soldiers, sons of veterans were legally obligated to serve in the army to maintain troop numbers. You argue that these were tax enforcement mechanisms, not a rigid caste system, and so in practice, the empire remained a society of high mobility.
Now, there is some element, and then you push back against that, some element of Diocletian where he legally limited social and class mobility in part for the taxation system, and made it, in many cases, illegal to move and illegal to quit your job. For example, as I read to guarantee the food supply and land tax, farmers were legally forbidden from moving away from the land they worked, so the state always knew who to tax. And then for soldiers, sons of veterans were legally obligated to serve in the army to maintain troop numbers. You argue that these were tax enforcement mechanisms, not a rigid caste system, and so in practice, the empire remained a society of high mobility.
Anthony Kaldellis
This is a complicated matter. So let’s talk, for example, about soldiers. It’s probably the case that most soldiers’ sons were expected to succeed them. Like most professions where you have an apprenticeship, the son will usually succeed, right? There are a number of other professions that were kind of guild-like in nature, like, for example, shipping.
This is a complicated matter. So let’s talk, for example, about soldiers. It’s probably the case that most soldiers’ sons were expected to succeed them. Like most professions where you have an apprenticeship, the son will usually succeed, right? There are a number of other professions that were kind of guild-like in nature, like, for example, shipping.
Anthony Kaldellis
Where there were considerable assets involved in order to secure contracts for insurance purposes for the ships and so forth, and it made sense for those assets to be, you know, passed from father to son. In other words, and with them comes the obligation to continue in that line of work. Some of these things are inherently sort of hereditary, and I don’t think most people would have objected to it. The farmers is probably the only case where it might have actually involved some coercion. There was a category of farmers, and we don’t know how many of them, who were, for fiscal purposes, bound to the land. This doesn’t mean they couldn’t leave the land, like physically. No one’s preventing them from leaving.
Where there were considerable assets involved in order to secure contracts for insurance purposes for the ships and so forth, and it made sense for those assets to be, you know, passed from father to son. In other words, and with them comes the obligation to continue in that line of work. Some of these things are inherently sort of hereditary, and I don’t think most people would have objected to it. The farmers is probably the only case where it might have actually involved some coercion. There was a category of farmers, and we don’t know how many of them, who were, for fiscal purposes, bound to the land. This doesn’t mean they couldn’t leave the land, like physically. No one’s preventing them from leaving.
Anthony Kaldellis
But they were fiscally responsible for providing the taxes or rents or whatever because the, the state wanted to have a secure revenue stream from, say, those lands. And if… Anyway, it’s, it’s one of these complicated situations. This did create some limitations on, on those people. And it’s a topic of current research, these bound farmers, as it were, who are tied to the land. It’s more of a… You know, someone put it that, you know, most of the time it’s people who own the land, and in this arrangement, it’s the land that owns the, that owns the people.
But they were fiscally responsible for providing the taxes or rents or whatever because the, the state wanted to have a secure revenue stream from, say, those lands. And if… Anyway, it’s, it’s one of these complicated situations. This did create some limitations on, on those people. And it’s a topic of current research, these bound farmers, as it were, who are tied to the land. It’s more of a… You know, someone put it that, you know, most of the time it’s people who own the land, and in this arrangement, it’s the land that owns the, that owns the people.
Lex Fridman
But you’re saying the bigger picture thing is that there was mobility.
But you’re saying the bigger picture thing is that there was mobility.
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, there’s considerable mobility.
Oh, there’s considerable mobility.
Lex Fridman
So class mobility- … and physical mobility- … meaning people moved… And we’ll see this from the West into the East and Constantinople and all this kind of stuff.
So class mobility- … and physical mobility- … meaning people moved… And we’ll see this from the West into the East and Constantinople and all this kind of stuff.
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yeah. There’s tons of mobility. No, no, this is not a society where people are bound really to… We, like, we don’t find anybody who’s, who’s like, “Ah, I really don’t wanna be a soldier. But my father was a soldier, and I’m obligated to be one.” Like- … like, we just don’t hear those kinds of complaints- … of people who don’t wanna be a so- Why wouldn’t you wanna be a soldier in the Roman Empire? I mean, it’s got tremendous perks.
Oh, yeah. There’s tons of mobility. No, no, this is not a society where people are bound really to… We, like, we don’t find anybody who’s, who’s like, “Ah, I really don’t wanna be a soldier. But my father was a soldier, and I’m obligated to be one.” Like- … like, we just don’t hear those kinds of complaints- … of people who don’t wanna be a so- Why wouldn’t you wanna be a soldier in the Roman Empire? I mean, it’s got tremendous perks.
Lex Fridman
So can we just linger on the why is it that Diocletian was able to stabilize the empire? It’s like, you know, the crisis of the third century really threatened to tear apart everything. So why did some of these things that we talked about stabilize?
So can we just linger on the why is it that Diocletian was able to stabilize the empire? It’s like, you know, the crisis of the third century really threatened to tear apart everything. So why did some of these things that we talked about stabilize?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, Aurelian had already united the empire territorially.
Well, Aurelian had already united the empire territorially.
Anthony Kaldellis
So this is right before Diocletian. And what Diocletian did was put in place a system that reduced the number of rebellions. Simply by having four big guys with four armies, they managed to put out all of those fires, or most of them. And once you have stability, and he also beat the Persians, I mean, Galerius did, so starting to beat back foreign invasions, that creates a framework for economic stability. People need to, you know, if they’re going to invest in, like, land reclamation or expand production, they need to know that, you know, foreigners aren’t gonna come rampaging through, marauding through, you know, stealing their cattle and, you know, enslaving them and taking them off to work on agricultural farms in Mesopotamia. Like, they need to know this.
So this is right before Diocletian. And what Diocletian did was put in place a system that reduced the number of rebellions. Simply by having four big guys with four armies, they managed to put out all of those fires, or most of them. And once you have stability, and he also beat the Persians, I mean, Galerius did, so starting to beat back foreign invasions, that creates a framework for economic stability. People need to, you know, if they’re going to invest in, like, land reclamation or expand production, they need to know that, you know, foreigners aren’t gonna come rampaging through, marauding through, you know, stealing their cattle and, you know, enslaving them and taking them off to work on agricultural farms in Mesopotamia. Like, they need to know this.
Anthony Kaldellis
And if you provide that context of stability, the economic growth, the demographic growth will return. And Diocletian created that kind of, that context.
And if you provide that context of stability, the economic growth, the demographic growth will return. And Diocletian created that kind of, that context.
Lex Fridman
So that takes us to Constantine, but first a quick bathroom break, if I can.
So that takes us to Constantine, but first a quick bathroom break, if I can.
Anthony Kaldellis
Sure.
Sure.
Constantine and the new Roman Empire
Lex Fridman
Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to our conversation about the Eastern Roman Empire. All right, we’re back, and let’s talk about Constantine and Constantinople. Let’s go to the rise of the East Roman Empire. Who was Constantine? Tell me about his rise to power and the founding of Constantinople in 330 AD.
Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to our conversation about the Eastern Roman Empire. All right, we’re back, and let’s talk about Constantine and Constantinople. Let’s go to the rise of the East Roman Empire. Who was Constantine? Tell me about his rise to power and the founding of Constantinople in 330 AD.
Anthony Kaldellis
Sure. So Constantine was the son of one of Diocletian’s colleagues, so he comes from within the system. And the system was actually designed to be non-hereditary. In other words, the senior emperors would retire, the junior ones would move up to the senior position, and then they would recruit two new ones. And they tried to skip the dynastic element. So, so it would be kind of, let’s just say, kinda meritocratic, not whose son, you know, you were. Constantine was a son. He was passed over, but the armies liked him. He was actually quite competent.
Sure. So Constantine was the son of one of Diocletian’s colleagues, so he comes from within the system. And the system was actually designed to be non-hereditary. In other words, the senior emperors would retire, the junior ones would move up to the senior position, and then they would recruit two new ones. And they tried to skip the dynastic element. So, so it would be kind of, let’s just say, kinda meritocratic, not whose son, you know, you were. Constantine was a son. He was passed over, but the armies liked him. He was actually quite competent.
Anthony Kaldellis
And so there’s a series of civil wars among all of these successors of Diocletian, and Constantine emerges as the winner. There are periods when there are quite a few of them. There are, like, six at a time, but they gradually dwindle down to one. So yeah, it’s as long as you have the quarterfinals, semifinals, and then the, the final war, and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole ruler of the entire Roman Empire. So that’s who he is. He’s, he’s definitely an insider, very, very competent general at civil war. And he gradually moves eastward. So as he’s conquering his rivals, who are often at times his fathers-in-law or his brothers-in-law, because these people all intermarry, and they have alliances, and they fall out.
And so there’s a series of civil wars among all of these successors of Diocletian, and Constantine emerges as the winner. There are periods when there are quite a few of them. There are, like, six at a time, but they gradually dwindle down to one. So yeah, it’s as long as you have the quarterfinals, semifinals, and then the, the final war, and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole ruler of the entire Roman Empire. So that’s who he is. He’s, he’s definitely an insider, very, very competent general at civil war. And he gradually moves eastward. So as he’s conquering his rivals, who are often at times his fathers-in-law or his brothers-in-law, because these people all intermarry, and they have alliances, and they fall out.
Anthony Kaldellis
It’s one of those kinds of situations. He moves eastward, and by the time he defeats his last rival, an emperor called Licinius, in 324 he’s in the East. And Licinius had his headquarters, or one of his headquarters, at this town called Byzantium. Byzantium is a city right where Constantinople was founded.
It’s one of those kinds of situations. He moves eastward, and by the time he defeats his last rival, an emperor called Licinius, in 324 he’s in the East. And Licinius had his headquarters, or one of his headquarters, at this town called Byzantium. Byzantium is a city right where Constantinople was founded.
Anthony Kaldellis
And it is at exactly the point where Europe meets Asia, so on the Bosporus. And it’s a very strategic location. It always had been, right? So whoever controls the straits of the Bosporus, yeah, we don’t need to explain how important that is. And Constantine decides to create a city named after himself, Constantinople, on that spot, Byzantium. So Byzantium essentially ceases to exist as a city and is replaced by Constantinople, AKA New Rome. So it’s pretty clear that right from the beginning, Constantine intended this to be a kind of branch office of Rome in the East, a kind of copy and paste of Rome in the East, and it’s a plan that his successors continued, right?
And it is at exactly the point where Europe meets Asia, so on the Bosporus. And it’s a very strategic location. It always had been, right? So whoever controls the straits of the Bosporus, yeah, we don’t need to explain how important that is. And Constantine decides to create a city named after himself, Constantinople, on that spot, Byzantium. So Byzantium essentially ceases to exist as a city and is replaced by Constantinople, AKA New Rome. So it’s pretty clear that right from the beginning, Constantine intended this to be a kind of branch office of Rome in the East, a kind of copy and paste of Rome in the East, and it’s a plan that his successors continued, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
Now, there are a number of other cities in this, let’s say, in the generation or two before this, that were also treated as sort of quasi-Romes. Basically, there was this historian in the third century who said, “Well, wherever the emperor is, that’s Rome,” right? ‘Cause emperors are now itinerant. They’re no longer staying at Rome. They’re mostly on the frontier, and Constantine is one of these frontier emperors. They will sometimes visit Rome, maybe once or twice, maybe once a decade, you know, something like this. So Rome becomes something that can be sort of copied and pasted in other parts of the empire, and a bunch of other cities get called, you know, a New Rome, an Other Rome, an Alternative Rome, My Rome. And Constantinople is the last and most successful of those.
Now, there are a number of other cities in this, let’s say, in the generation or two before this, that were also treated as sort of quasi-Romes. Basically, there was this historian in the third century who said, “Well, wherever the emperor is, that’s Rome,” right? ‘Cause emperors are now itinerant. They’re no longer staying at Rome. They’re mostly on the frontier, and Constantine is one of these frontier emperors. They will sometimes visit Rome, maybe once or twice, maybe once a decade, you know, something like this. So Rome becomes something that can be sort of copied and pasted in other parts of the empire, and a bunch of other cities get called, you know, a New Rome, an Other Rome, an Alternative Rome, My Rome. And Constantinople is the last and most successful of those.
Lex Fridman
So maybe can you speak geographically the importance of Constantinople? It’s an interesting place ’cause it- … when you’re talking about a land so large as the West and the East, with enemies, with threats from all kinds of different directions, the location where the emperor sits is important.
So maybe can you speak geographically the importance of Constantinople? It’s an interesting place ’cause it- … when you’re talking about a land so large as the West and the East, with enemies, with threats from all kinds of different directions, the location where the emperor sits is important.
Anthony Kaldellis
Very. So look at Rome, right? So it’s right in the middle of Italy, right in the middle of the Mediterranean. Very safe location in a way, but it’s very far from the frontiers. And this is a period when emperors need to be with the armies, right? They’re not senatorial emperors who are sitting in Rome having meetings with senators. They are military emperors who are marching along the frontiers mostly with generals rather than civilian administration. So they’re doing their job. Like, this is the hard work. They’re slogging through the mud of winter campaigns, right?
Very. So look at Rome, right? So it’s right in the middle of Italy, right in the middle of the Mediterranean. Very safe location in a way, but it’s very far from the frontiers. And this is a period when emperors need to be with the armies, right? They’re not senatorial emperors who are sitting in Rome having meetings with senators. They are military emperors who are marching along the frontiers mostly with generals rather than civilian administration. So they’re doing their job. Like, this is the hard work. They’re slogging through the mud of winter campaigns, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
They’re not just sitting in a palace enjoying themselves when they could. But Rome just becomes inconvenient because of that. And if you look at Constantinople, it is kind of halfway between the Danube frontier and the Euphrates frontier. So if you want to prioritize the East or treat it as an equal part of the Roman Empire, as these emperors all did. In fact, almost all emperors who had a choice about whether they would stay in the East or stay in the West chose the East. There’s only one who chooses the West, and that’s Valentinian later in the fourth century. All the others understand that the East is where it’s at. And Constantinople is right between the Danube and the Euphrates. These are two major frontiers. And so it allows emperors to move between the two.
They’re not just sitting in a palace enjoying themselves when they could. But Rome just becomes inconvenient because of that. And if you look at Constantinople, it is kind of halfway between the Danube frontier and the Euphrates frontier. So if you want to prioritize the East or treat it as an equal part of the Roman Empire, as these emperors all did. In fact, almost all emperors who had a choice about whether they would stay in the East or stay in the West chose the East. There’s only one who chooses the West, and that’s Valentinian later in the fourth century. All the others understand that the East is where it’s at. And Constantinople is right between the Danube and the Euphrates. These are two major frontiers. And so it allows emperors to move between the two.
Anthony Kaldellis
And also look at its location: north, south, east, west, right? So north, south, it is the node between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, right? And east, west, it’s precisely where Europe meets Asia, right? And because there’s a break there, so there’s a Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont, the Roman Empire during the civil wars, it would tend to break there.
And also look at its location: north, south, east, west, right? So north, south, it is the node between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, right? And east, west, it’s precisely where Europe meets Asia, right? And because there’s a break there, so there’s a Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont, the Roman Empire during the civil wars, it would tend to break there.
Anthony Kaldellis
And you would have one emperor on one side in Asia, and you would have another emperor on the other side. And this just kept happening. And Constantinople ultimately functions as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole area, so basically the Balkans and Asia Minor and Syria as a kind of unit, right? And, you know, what is a new Rome? A new Rome is, among other things, a new senate, right? And Constantine and his successors recruit this new senate for the new Rome. So we’re talking about maybe two and a half thousand, 3,000 men, you know, at, at, at its peak, and these are all recruited from all of these areas. You know, some come from Rome, but others come from the Aegean region, from Asia Minor, Eastern Mediterranean.
And you would have one emperor on one side in Asia, and you would have another emperor on the other side. And this just kept happening. And Constantinople ultimately functions as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole area, so basically the Balkans and Asia Minor and Syria as a kind of unit, right? And, you know, what is a new Rome? A new Rome is, among other things, a new senate, right? And Constantine and his successors recruit this new senate for the new Rome. So we’re talking about maybe two and a half thousand, 3,000 men, you know, at, at, at its peak, and these are all recruited from all of these areas. You know, some come from Rome, but others come from the Aegean region, from Asia Minor, Eastern Mediterranean.
Anthony Kaldellis
So these are the wealthiest people, usually most well-connected elites from the whole Eastern Mediterranean, and they come together and form a new purpose, common purpose in Constantinople. And the empire never breaks there again. Right? So it, it holds together this part of the world. The breaking point now, interestingly, moves to the Adriatic, right? So when, in 395, we talked about East and West kind of splitting.
So these are the wealthiest people, usually most well-connected elites from the whole Eastern Mediterranean, and they come together and form a new purpose, common purpose in Constantinople. And the empire never breaks there again. Right? So it, it holds together this part of the world. The breaking point now, interestingly, moves to the Adriatic, right? So when, in 395, we talked about East and West kind of splitting.
Anthony Kaldellis
It breaks at the Adriatic ’cause Constantinople is now holding that whole Eastern world together. ‘Cause all of these elites, they now, they’re invested in it. They’re literally investing in it. They have to invest in it in order to be senators in Constantinople. So that’s kind of one of the functions that it, that it performs, a strategic function. There’s a political function. There’s also a cultural one, but you know, we can talk about that, too. But that’s what you see there on that map, the northwest, east, south.
It breaks at the Adriatic ’cause Constantinople is now holding that whole Eastern world together. ‘Cause all of these elites, they now, they’re invested in it. They’re literally investing in it. They have to invest in it in order to be senators in Constantinople. So that’s kind of one of the functions that it, that it performs, a strategic function. There’s a political function. There’s also a cultural one, but you know, we can talk about that, too. But that’s what you see there on that map, the northwest, east, south.
Lex Fridman
So just to linger on it, so you, you do a podcast, Byzantium and Friends, but you’re also a guest on podcasts, and I should mention you being a guest multiple times on the excellent The History of Byzantium podcast hosted by Robin Pierson. I highly recommend people listen to it, to all of your appearances. You have a lot of really fascinating ones. But the reason I bring all that up is, one of the episodes, you do the fun thing of selecting the top 10 emperors of Byzantium, and spoiler alert, everybody should go listen to the full list ’cause you justify all the different options. But Constantine ends up in the number one spot. And so can you just add a little bit more depth why he would be in your number one spot- … now that we’re talking about him?
So just to linger on it, so you, you do a podcast, Byzantium and Friends, but you’re also a guest on podcasts, and I should mention you being a guest multiple times on the excellent The History of Byzantium podcast hosted by Robin Pierson. I highly recommend people listen to it, to all of your appearances. You have a lot of really fascinating ones. But the reason I bring all that up is, one of the episodes, you do the fun thing of selecting the top 10 emperors of Byzantium, and spoiler alert, everybody should go listen to the full list ’cause you justify all the different options. But Constantine ends up in the number one spot. And so can you just add a little bit more depth why he would be in your number one spot- … now that we’re talking about him?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. It’s not because I sort of like him as a person, right? I mean- … as you said, he was pretty murderous. Right? All those wars, so clearly ambitious, murderous, ruthless, basically.
Yes. It’s not because I sort of like him as a person, right? I mean- … as you said, he was pretty murderous. Right? All those wars, so clearly ambitious, murderous, ruthless, basically.
Lex Fridman
Can you actually speak to the murderous aspect? He seemed to have murdered a lot of people in his family.
Can you actually speak to the murderous aspect? He seemed to have murdered a lot of people in his family.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, that’s because what we call his family were also alliances of convenience that he made on the way to the top. And when those alliances or, you know, those, you know, those wives or those fathers-in-law were no longer convenient or, or turned against him, he had no hesitation in removing them. But he’s also, you know, he gets a, a little extra bonus because he also murdered his own son, Crispus, who was- … apparently a very competent and popular kind of general, and we don’t know why. He executes Crispus soon after defeating Licinius, and then follows it up with the murder of his wife-
Yes, that’s because what we call his family were also alliances of convenience that he made on the way to the top. And when those alliances or, you know, those, you know, those wives or those fathers-in-law were no longer convenient or, or turned against him, he had no hesitation in removing them. But he’s also, you know, he gets a, a little extra bonus because he also murdered his own son, Crispus, who was- … apparently a very competent and popular kind of general, and we don’t know why. He executes Crispus soon after defeating Licinius, and then follows it up with the murder of his wife-
Anthony Kaldellis
… not Crispus’ mother, and we don’t know why. The funny thing is that when emperors do this sort of thing, if there’s any kind of remotely, like, a good reason, they’ll blast it through all of the media, right? Like, “Crispus was rebelling against me,” or whatever. There’s nothing. He doesn’t even try to justify it, which means it must have been something unjustifiable. Like, I don’t know. I can’t process it.
… not Crispus’ mother, and we don’t know why. The funny thing is that when emperors do this sort of thing, if there’s any kind of remotely, like, a good reason, they’ll blast it through all of the media, right? Like, “Crispus was rebelling against me,” or whatever. There’s nothing. He doesn’t even try to justify it, which means it must have been something unjustifiable. Like, I don’t know. I can’t process it.
Lex Fridman
And also, I read that the historians of the time would just ignore that that happened.
And also, I read that the historians of the time would just ignore that that happened.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. Well, sort of. So when Crispus is alive, it’s all, like, praising Crispus as, “Oh, Constantine, you great emperor, and your wonderful son who will…” whatever. And then Crispus is executed, and he just disappears from the, like- … they never talk about him.
Yes. Well, sort of. So when Crispus is alive, it’s all, like, praising Crispus as, “Oh, Constantine, you great emperor, and your wonderful son who will…” whatever. And then Crispus is executed, and he just disappears from the, like- … they never talk about him.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Actually, as another side to a side, I think you mentioned whether it’s on your podcast or elsewhere, that if you had to have a beer with any of the emperors, you probably wouldn’t. So it’s not like some of the most impactful, some of the most influential and great emperors that we talk about, they might not be very pleasant people.
Yeah. Actually, as another side to a side, I think you mentioned whether it’s on your podcast or elsewhere, that if you had to have a beer with any of the emperors, you probably wouldn’t. So it’s not like some of the most impactful, some of the most influential and great emperors that we talk about, they might not be very pleasant people.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right. So let’s set aside whether you’d like to have a beer with these people. The reason I put Constantine at the top of the list is because the decisions that he made were so consequential, just important, and for the most part, not bad decisions. So I couldn’t not put him at the top of the list. The, you know, creating Constantinople and converting to Christianity and setting the empire on a path to conversion, these are major, like, world history level decisions.
Right. So let’s set aside whether you’d like to have a beer with these people. The reason I put Constantine at the top of the list is because the decisions that he made were so consequential, just important, and for the most part, not bad decisions. So I couldn’t not put him at the top of the list. The, you know, creating Constantinople and converting to Christianity and setting the empire on a path to conversion, these are major, like, world history level decisions.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? Now, not many emperors do that. In fact, Constantine is in, like, his own league when it comes to those kinds of decisions. My other criteria for top emperors were basically those who did the job well, right? Not making, you know, these kinds of earth, you know, shattering decisions or, you know, world history changing decisions, but just who performed the role competently with results that impacted the lives of their subjects for the better. So those are the other criteria that I used. It’s difficult to juggle these different criteria, right, in order to create a systematic list. And by the way, we, historians, generally don’t do these kinds of things. But you said it’s fun.
Right? Now, not many emperors do that. In fact, Constantine is in, like, his own league when it comes to those kinds of decisions. My other criteria for top emperors were basically those who did the job well, right? Not making, you know, these kinds of earth, you know, shattering decisions or, you know, world history changing decisions, but just who performed the role competently with results that impacted the lives of their subjects for the better. So those are the other criteria that I used. It’s difficult to juggle these different criteria, right, in order to create a systematic list. And by the way, we, historians, generally don’t do these kinds of things. But you said it’s fun.
Lex Fridman
It’s fun.
It’s fun.
Anthony Kaldellis
It is fun.
It is fun.
Lex Fridman
It was fun. It was fun.
It was fun. It was fun.
Anthony Kaldellis
And it allows you to talk about certain things that you might not otherwise do. So yeah, that’s why Constantine was at the top.
And it allows you to talk about certain things that you might not otherwise do. So yeah, that’s why Constantine was at the top.
Christianity in the Roman Empire
Lex Fridman
So you mentioned Christianity. That was one other big component of his rule. What was the role of Christianity in Constantine’s life, in the lives of the citizens of the new Roman Empire?
So you mentioned Christianity. That was one other big component of his rule. What was the role of Christianity in Constantine’s life, in the lives of the citizens of the new Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
At this stage, Christianity doesn’t have a role. It actually took the emperors… When the emperors took it on board, that is, they made it a part of the imperial system, then it began to acquire a role within the system. Previously, it had imagined itself as having its own history, like not necessarily part of the empire or affiliated with imperial power. But after Constantine, it does acquire a role.
At this stage, Christianity doesn’t have a role. It actually took the emperors… When the emperors took it on board, that is, they made it a part of the imperial system, then it began to acquire a role within the system. Previously, it had imagined itself as having its own history, like not necessarily part of the empire or affiliated with imperial power. But after Constantine, it does acquire a role.
Lex Fridman
And so actually, one way to ask that question, which is fascinating, ’cause you said that there’s like, there’s Rome, and then there’s like cultures or traditions like Christianity or being Greek, that kind of thing. So one of the ways to ask this question is: does Christianity triumph over Rome, or did Rome capture Christianity?
And so actually, one way to ask that question, which is fascinating, ’cause you said that there’s like, there’s Rome, and then there’s like cultures or traditions like Christianity or being Greek, that kind of thing. So one of the ways to ask this question is: does Christianity triumph over Rome, or did Rome capture Christianity?
Anthony Kaldellis
Right. Yes. That’s a—
Right. Yes. That’s a—
Lex Fridman
Which is the mechanism?
Which is the mechanism?
Anthony Kaldellis
I would lean more toward the second. In other words, that the religion was co-opted by the imperial system. Now, there are many areas in which that’s not the case and where the opposite happens, so I’m not gonna be absolute about it, but I think it’s very important to recognize that because Christianity generates this narrative of triumph— … right, which modern historians perpetuate, and it’s framed in very particular ways. In other words, that Christianity triumphs over the ancient religions.
I would lean more toward the second. In other words, that the religion was co-opted by the imperial system. Now, there are many areas in which that’s not the case and where the opposite happens, so I’m not gonna be absolute about it, but I think it’s very important to recognize that because Christianity generates this narrative of triumph— … right, which modern historians perpetuate, and it’s framed in very particular ways. In other words, that Christianity triumphs over the ancient religions.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? So displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of that, and animal sacrifice is gone, and like, that’s because Christianity triumphs, and that’s a very narrow way of looking at it. In other words, you pick your enemy, and then you can defeat that enemy, right? But if you look in the other direction, there’s, like, the Roman imperial state, and you cannot say that Christianity either triumphed over it or even tamed it or anything. It actually became part of it.
Right? So displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of that, and animal sacrifice is gone, and like, that’s because Christianity triumphs, and that’s a very narrow way of looking at it. In other words, you pick your enemy, and then you can defeat that enemy, right? But if you look in the other direction, there’s, like, the Roman imperial state, and you cannot say that Christianity either triumphed over it or even tamed it or anything. It actually became part of it.
Anthony Kaldellis
In many ways that, you know, determined its history for centuries and, in fact, down to today. So this is very different, for example, from the history of Islam. So Islam comes into existence without a preexisting state to receive it and take it on board. It creates its own state, right? So the Muslim armies, they conquer this empire, and then they have to sort of govern it. They think according to whatever Islamic principles. The Quran doesn’t say anything about running an empire.
In many ways that, you know, determined its history for centuries and, in fact, down to today. So this is very different, for example, from the history of Islam. So Islam comes into existence without a preexisting state to receive it and take it on board. It creates its own state, right? So the Muslim armies, they conquer this empire, and then they have to sort of govern it. They think according to whatever Islamic principles. The Quran doesn’t say anything about running an empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
So that creates a completely different society, right, where, like, Islam is really a primary kind of identity and, like, drives a lot of developments. But Christianity comes into existence within a very well-developed society and political system. Now, here’s the thing. We don’t know exactly how many Christians existed in the time of Constantine. Well, we speculate maybe 10% of the empire. That might be very high, right? But even if it’s 10%, it’s not a lot, and these are not, like, elites for the most part. Maybe middle, you know, what we loosely call middle class, a few elites, a few slaves, like this kind of thing. Mostly urban, and keeping in mind, most of the population is rural.
So that creates a completely different society, right, where, like, Islam is really a primary kind of identity and, like, drives a lot of developments. But Christianity comes into existence within a very well-developed society and political system. Now, here’s the thing. We don’t know exactly how many Christians existed in the time of Constantine. Well, we speculate maybe 10% of the empire. That might be very high, right? But even if it’s 10%, it’s not a lot, and these are not, like, elites for the most part. Maybe middle, you know, what we loosely call middle class, a few elites, a few slaves, like this kind of thing. Mostly urban, and keeping in mind, most of the population is rural.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? So pockets of concentrated, you know, Christian groups in cities. That’s what we’re talking about. Not terribly politically powerful.
Right? So pockets of concentrated, you know, Christian groups in cities. That’s what we’re talking about. Not terribly politically powerful.
Lex Fridman
So Constantine’s conversion to Christianity and moving the empire towards Christianity is not something where it’s a gigantic majority of the people— … or it’s a political convenience because it’s the elites. It’s something else. I mean, it’s a pretty revolutionary decision, I would say.
So Constantine’s conversion to Christianity and moving the empire towards Christianity is not something where it’s a gigantic majority of the people— … or it’s a political convenience because it’s the elites. It’s something else. I mean, it’s a pretty revolutionary decision, I would say.
Anthony Kaldellis
Exactly. Now, there used to be theories that Constantine did this for, like, pragmatic, cynical reasons, that he, like, wasn’t a true Christian or anything, but there was some kind of political gain to be had here. But I have never read a convincing account of what exactly that political gain is. We now know that there are fewer Christians. They were not that influential. You can make an argument that bishops are a kind of convenient social influencers, you might say. Like, you can use those. They’re not a threat to your position.
Exactly. Now, there used to be theories that Constantine did this for, like, pragmatic, cynical reasons, that he, like, wasn’t a true Christian or anything, but there was some kind of political gain to be had here. But I have never read a convincing account of what exactly that political gain is. We now know that there are fewer Christians. They were not that influential. You can make an argument that bishops are a kind of convenient social influencers, you might say. Like, you can use those. They’re not a threat to your position.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? So a bishop is not gonna try to take the throne. So they’re not dangerous political operatives in that way. But they do have some influence over sectors of society, and so that might be a… Okay, I see that, but I don’t quite see the argument for, like, going full Christian just to get the support of some bishops, who actually pretty quickly turn out to be, some of them, more trouble than they’re worth. Anyway, so I have not yet seen a convincing political argument for Constantine’s decision, which means that you then fall back on a personal explanation that he did this because he was a believing Christian, right? And he came out, you know, in support of the religion that he held, and that’s kind of where most scholars are today.
Right? So a bishop is not gonna try to take the throne. So they’re not dangerous political operatives in that way. But they do have some influence over sectors of society, and so that might be a… Okay, I see that, but I don’t quite see the argument for, like, going full Christian just to get the support of some bishops, who actually pretty quickly turn out to be, some of them, more trouble than they’re worth. Anyway, so I have not yet seen a convincing political argument for Constantine’s decision, which means that you then fall back on a personal explanation that he did this because he was a believing Christian, right? And he came out, you know, in support of the religion that he held, and that’s kind of where most scholars are today.
Anthony Kaldellis
Though, I gotta tell you, historians are very uncomfortable about personal choice, like explaining history in terms of these kinds of personal choices. Because Constantine’s conversion is like, it’s massive. It opens the door. It incentivizes so many people to also convert.
Though, I gotta tell you, historians are very uncomfortable about personal choice, like explaining history in terms of these kinds of personal choices. Because Constantine’s conversion is like, it’s massive. It opens the door. It incentivizes so many people to also convert.
Anthony Kaldellis
‘Cause Romans will generally do what their, you know, rulers will tell them. If we’ve mentioned Hadrian a few times, Hadrian had this lover, Antinous, Greek boy from Bithynia, who died in an accident in Egypt, whatever, and Hadrian said basically that Antinous should be regarded as a god throughout the empire. And he was. We have, like, more statues and busts of Antinous from all of these temples all over the empire than I think of anyone else except Hadrian. So yeah, if the emperor says, like, “This is a person who’s a god now, you know, put statues of him everywhere,” they will. And when Constantine comes out in favor of Christianity, you know, suddenly people discover that, oh, this is an interesting rite. It’s got the support of the emperor.
‘Cause Romans will generally do what their, you know, rulers will tell them. If we’ve mentioned Hadrian a few times, Hadrian had this lover, Antinous, Greek boy from Bithynia, who died in an accident in Egypt, whatever, and Hadrian said basically that Antinous should be regarded as a god throughout the empire. And he was. We have, like, more statues and busts of Antinous from all of these temples all over the empire than I think of anyone else except Hadrian. So yeah, if the emperor says, like, “This is a person who’s a god now, you know, put statues of him everywhere,” they will. And when Constantine comes out in favor of Christianity, you know, suddenly people discover that, oh, this is an interesting rite. It’s got the support of the emperor.
Lex Fridman
So one of the things here, going to the Perplexity, Constantine’s conversion to Christianity is usually dated to 312 AD linked to a visionary experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. Do you believe that vision, that he had this religious experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge? Here it says, “But historians debate both its nature and its sincerity.”
So one of the things here, going to the Perplexity, Constantine’s conversion to Christianity is usually dated to 312 AD linked to a visionary experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. Do you believe that vision, that he had this religious experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge? Here it says, “But historians debate both its nature and its sincerity.”
Anthony Kaldellis
Well—
Well—
Lex Fridman
Do you believe the sincerity of that experience?
Do you believe the sincerity of that experience?
Anthony Kaldellis
Before we even get to the sincerity— … is the problem of the sources. This is reported by authors writing later in the aftermath of a victory when the emperor… Like, one of them had a dinner conversation with the emperor a few decades later, and he said, “Well, let me tell you about the Milvian Bridge.” And it’s like, okay, I’m not gonna believe that. I’m not gonna take that at face value, rather. It’s a much more complicated… You know, this is how the emperor wants things to be remembered.
Before we even get to the sincerity— … is the problem of the sources. This is reported by authors writing later in the aftermath of a victory when the emperor… Like, one of them had a dinner conversation with the emperor a few decades later, and he said, “Well, let me tell you about the Milvian Bridge.” And it’s like, okay, I’m not gonna believe that. I’m not gonna take that at face value, rather. It’s a much more complicated… You know, this is how the emperor wants things to be remembered.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s different. Also, Constantine tended to have a lot of religious visions. He had had religious visions of Apollo before Christ, and we have sources that talk about that, too, that he went to this temple in Gaul, and Apollo appeared to him in the form of light. Okay, Constantine has a religious vision every time he kind of wants to shift policies and his, like, profile. Like, when he wanted to break away from his other emperors who used to go for the—like, they went for this kind of Jupiter/Hercules model. And he shifted to an Apollo model. This is a branding. This is emperors doing branding.
That’s different. Also, Constantine tended to have a lot of religious visions. He had had religious visions of Apollo before Christ, and we have sources that talk about that, too, that he went to this temple in Gaul, and Apollo appeared to him in the form of light. Okay, Constantine has a religious vision every time he kind of wants to shift policies and his, like, profile. Like, when he wanted to break away from his other emperors who used to go for the—like, they went for this kind of Jupiter/Hercules model. And he shifted to an Apollo model. This is a branding. This is emperors doing branding.
Lex Fridman
So we should say that, as you’ve described, Constantine is a pragmatist. He’s very pragmatic. But you’re saying it’s fair to believe, based on the evidence, that he actually converged towards being a Christian believer.
So we should say that, as you’ve described, Constantine is a pragmatist. He’s very pragmatic. But you’re saying it’s fair to believe, based on the evidence, that he actually converged towards being a Christian believer.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. It’s very possible, in fact plausible, that he thought the Christian God had helped him in battle. And, you know, for someone like him, that’s as good a reason as any to support that god.
Yeah. It’s very possible, in fact plausible, that he thought the Christian God had helped him in battle. And, you know, for someone like him, that’s as good a reason as any to support that god.
Lex Fridman
But he was not, like, a hardcore Christian all the way through. He was a kind of a spiritual, religious kind of person. He thought about religions more generally and just converged towards Christianity as a good religion. He also had ideas about what a good religion is— … and what a bad religion is, that kind of stuff. So he’s thinking in this space.
But he was not, like, a hardcore Christian all the way through. He was a kind of a spiritual, religious kind of person. He thought about religions more generally and just converged towards Christianity as a good religion. He also had ideas about what a good religion is— … and what a bad religion is, that kind of stuff. So he’s thinking in this space.
Anthony Kaldellis
He’s tending not to be too explicit. Depending on the audience. So Constantine remains a pragmatist in the sense that he doesn’t want to alienate too many of his subjects, right? And so he’s sometimes a bit coy or elusive about what he’s getting at. When he’s talking to Christians, he will talk about Christ. He will mention Christ. When he’s talking to everybody else in, like, a general law, he’ll just refer to good religion. And it’s like you, like, you, maybe you know what I mean, right? But he’s not gonna, like, you know, come to Jesus. Right?
He’s tending not to be too explicit. Depending on the audience. So Constantine remains a pragmatist in the sense that he doesn’t want to alienate too many of his subjects, right? And so he’s sometimes a bit coy or elusive about what he’s getting at. When he’s talking to Christians, he will talk about Christ. He will mention Christ. When he’s talking to everybody else in, like, a general law, he’ll just refer to good religion. And it’s like you, like, you, maybe you know what I mean, right? But he’s not gonna, like, you know, come to Jesus. Right?
Anthony Kaldellis
So even at the time when he’s, like, supporting the church, like, basically institutionalizing the church as an part—of the imperial system, but he’s also putting up statues of himself that look like Apollo in Constantinople, right? So the focal point of Constantine’s Constantinople is the Forum of Constantine. And in the middle is this very tall column, and it has a colossal statue of Constantine on top, gilded, enormous thing. I don’t know, like, eight meters tall or whatever. But it’s a repurposed Apollo. It’s even, it, like, visibly so. It’s naked. It has the rays coming out of the-
So even at the time when he’s, like, supporting the church, like, basically institutionalizing the church as an part—of the imperial system, but he’s also putting up statues of himself that look like Apollo in Constantinople, right? So the focal point of Constantine’s Constantinople is the Forum of Constantine. And in the middle is this very tall column, and it has a colossal statue of Constantine on top, gilded, enormous thing. I don’t know, like, eight meters tall or whatever. But it’s a repurposed Apollo. It’s even, it, like, visibly so. It’s naked. It has the rays coming out of the-
Anthony Kaldellis
… head, right? Right. And everybody knew it was an Apollo. So that’s Constantine in the guise of his old patron god, Apollo. Still, but he’s still Christian Constantine, so he’s sending all of these different messages.
… head, right? Right. And everybody knew it was an Apollo. So that’s Constantine in the guise of his old patron god, Apollo. Still, but he’s still Christian Constantine, so he’s sending all of these different messages.
Lex Fridman
I mean, he likes being the god-like figure. I mean, that whole statue just is like, “I am the god.”
I mean, he likes being the god-like figure. I mean, that whole statue just is like, “I am the god.”
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. It’s assimilating yourself to… Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. It’s assimilating yourself to… Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman
And I mean, a lot of the Romans, is it fair to say, kinda saw the emperor a little bit in that light?
And I mean, a lot of the Romans, is it fair to say, kinda saw the emperor a little bit in that light?
Anthony Kaldellis
No, yeah. Oh, yeah. They called him divine and— yeah. That, there’s not a hard theology there, right? Like, if you pressed them on the actual theology, they wouldn’t— … they wouldn’t say the emperor is a god. No. This is mushy. This gets very, very mushy.
No, yeah. Oh, yeah. They called him divine and— yeah. That, there’s not a hard theology there, right? Like, if you pressed them on the actual theology, they wouldn’t— … they wouldn’t say the emperor is a god. No. This is mushy. This gets very, very mushy.
Lex Fridman
But I mean, a lot of the Christians have a kinda humility before God. I think when you have an emperor that’s god-like, it gets a little weird-
But I mean, a lot of the Christians have a kinda humility before God. I think when you have an emperor that’s god-like, it gets a little weird-
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Lex Fridman
… in the way you talk about God.
… in the way you talk about God.
Anthony Kaldellis
It depends on the context. Like, there are contexts in which you are an emperor and you’re proclaiming your majesty, and then there are more personal contexts where you might be more humble because, I don’t know, you’re being baptized or something. Like, those are different contexts.
It depends on the context. Like, there are contexts in which you are an emperor and you’re proclaiming your majesty, and then there are more personal contexts where you might be more humble because, I don’t know, you’re being baptized or something. Like, those are different contexts.
Lex Fridman
So can you speak to the whole process of the conversion to Christianity, of the- … propagation of Christianity throughout the empire and Constantine’s role in that?
So can you speak to the whole process of the conversion to Christianity, of the- … propagation of Christianity throughout the empire and Constantine’s role in that?
Anthony Kaldellis
Constantine, or his successors as well, because this was a gradual process, and it takes a very long time. So let’s let’s put it into perspective. We probably can’t talk about a majority Christian society until maybe the 5th century, or early 5th— … mid-5th. We, we don’t have data, obviously. And we can’t talk about, like, a solidly Christian society until early 6th century. And by solidly, I mean maybe where the non-Christians are 10, 15%, right? So that’s a long time. That’s, like, five centuries after Jesus. That’s half a millennium. So we’re talking about a half-millennial process here. It’s, it’s very long.
Constantine, or his successors as well, because this was a gradual process, and it takes a very long time. So let’s let’s put it into perspective. We probably can’t talk about a majority Christian society until maybe the 5th century, or early 5th— … mid-5th. We, we don’t have data, obviously. And we can’t talk about, like, a solidly Christian society until early 6th century. And by solidly, I mean maybe where the non-Christians are 10, 15%, right? So that’s a long time. That’s, like, five centuries after Jesus. That’s half a millennium. So we’re talking about a half-millennial process here. It’s, it’s very long.
Lex Fridman
But it’s only a couple of centuries after Constantine.
But it’s only a couple of centuries after Constantine.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
So it takes- … about two centuries to really make the Roman Empire Christian
So it takes- … about two centuries to really make the Roman Empire Christian
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. So very slow conversion, maybe, maybe up to 10% tops under Constantine. Then obviously larger and larger groups join the church, even if only nominally, right? Until you get to the sixth century when you’re clearly talking about a, you know, mostly or overwhelmingly Christian society. A lot of this is just done through incentives and disincentives, right? So bishops are given funds with which to distribute, like, charity and help to communities in distress. They have lists of widows and whatever they support. Land is given to the church by the emperors or in wills so that they can engage in this kind of social policy. And then there are disincentives. So emperors pass laws that increasingly restrict the exercise of traditional religion.
Yes. So very slow conversion, maybe, maybe up to 10% tops under Constantine. Then obviously larger and larger groups join the church, even if only nominally, right? Until you get to the sixth century when you’re clearly talking about a, you know, mostly or overwhelmingly Christian society. A lot of this is just done through incentives and disincentives, right? So bishops are given funds with which to distribute, like, charity and help to communities in distress. They have lists of widows and whatever they support. Land is given to the church by the emperors or in wills so that they can engage in this kind of social policy. And then there are disincentives. So emperors pass laws that increasingly restrict the exercise of traditional religion.
Anthony Kaldellis
Like, you can’t perform animal sacrifices, then you can’t start doing these like tying ribbons to make wishes or, like, all of these things, like going out to sacred trees and doing this or that, because they say, “Oh, this is kind of nefarious business,” or, like, magic or whatever it is. And then they just gradually start outlawing it more and more, putting restrictions on, like, if you’re not a Christian, you can’t hold these high offices or you can’t… Your… There’s problems with your wills. So they gradually do it like that. And this is how you… Yeah, this is… And it works. It works.
Like, you can’t perform animal sacrifices, then you can’t start doing these like tying ribbons to make wishes or, like, all of these things, like going out to sacred trees and doing this or that, because they say, “Oh, this is kind of nefarious business,” or, like, magic or whatever it is. And then they just gradually start outlawing it more and more, putting restrictions on, like, if you’re not a Christian, you can’t hold these high offices or you can’t… Your… There’s problems with your wills. So they gradually do it like that. And this is how you… Yeah, this is… And it works. It works.
Lex Fridman
What explains the success of Christianity after Constantine? Why, why was it, as a technology, so successful at spreading throughout the empire?
What explains the success of Christianity after Constantine? Why, why was it, as a technology, so successful at spreading throughout the empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
Christianity developed in a number of ways. So it acquired a certain number of forms that were capable of appealing to different constituencies. In other words, there was an intellectual side to it, the sort of theology, the almost quasi-philosophical or engagement with philosophical schools that could draw in, let’s say, intellectuals. There is a public ceremony and ritual aspect where you can organize communities and cities to have processions or, like, have all these festivals that take the place of the ancient ones. You have a kind of, it’s not secretive, but it’s kind of this initiatory aspect where there’s this baptism and you learn a sort of creed, and you’re initiated into the religion with the prospect of a personal afterlife, right? And that appeals to other kinds of people.
Christianity developed in a number of ways. So it acquired a certain number of forms that were capable of appealing to different constituencies. In other words, there was an intellectual side to it, the sort of theology, the almost quasi-philosophical or engagement with philosophical schools that could draw in, let’s say, intellectuals. There is a public ceremony and ritual aspect where you can organize communities and cities to have processions or, like, have all these festivals that take the place of the ancient ones. You have a kind of, it’s not secretive, but it’s kind of this initiatory aspect where there’s this baptism and you learn a sort of creed, and you’re initiated into the religion with the prospect of a personal afterlife, right? And that appeals to other kinds of people.
Anthony Kaldellis
There’s also ways in which it integrated itself into the court and the language of power. Also in the army, right? Soldiers now swear an oath to the Trinity, right? So it takes all of these different forms that enable it to position itself, you know, here and there and, you know, in the streets, in the court, in the armies, in the churches, in texts, in books. And so it has this kind of manifold diversity, right, that makes it very adaptable.
There’s also ways in which it integrated itself into the court and the language of power. Also in the army, right? Soldiers now swear an oath to the Trinity, right? So it takes all of these different forms that enable it to position itself, you know, here and there and, you know, in the streets, in the court, in the armies, in the churches, in texts, in books. And so it has this kind of manifold diversity, right, that makes it very adaptable.
Lex Fridman
So one of the things you mentioned that Constantine did not anticipate, did not realize, is that Christianity creates divisions between various groups.
So one of the things you mentioned that Constantine did not anticipate, did not realize, is that Christianity creates divisions between various groups.
Anthony Kaldellis
So in part, this is, happens when you have religions that make exclusive claims, right? Like, my beliefs are true- … and yours are by definition false. Not, not just wrong, but false and even kind of evil. Like maybe— … Satan put them in your mind to- … lead you astray, right? And this is inherently divisive. Like, it is. So there’s this paradox where Christianity, in contrast to, say, the ancient religions, is both far more polarizing but also far more powerful as a unifying force at the same time, right? So ancient religions tended not to produce this kind of conflict or identities, right, or wars or these kinds of things. And they could under certain circumstances, but for the most part, they were not drivers of history in this kind of way.
So in part, this is, happens when you have religions that make exclusive claims, right? Like, my beliefs are true- … and yours are by definition false. Not, not just wrong, but false and even kind of evil. Like maybe— … Satan put them in your mind to- … lead you astray, right? And this is inherently divisive. Like, it is. So there’s this paradox where Christianity, in contrast to, say, the ancient religions, is both far more polarizing but also far more powerful as a unifying force at the same time, right? So ancient religions tended not to produce this kind of conflict or identities, right, or wars or these kinds of things. And they could under certain circumstances, but for the most part, they were not drivers of history in this kind of way.
Anthony Kaldellis
But when you have exclusive claims, then suddenly these very communities that are sort of consolidated and have this very strong identity, but you also alienate other groups— … that you then are in conflict with. So this is why I, for one, can’t come down on whether, you know, Christianity is more of a unifying force or a divisive force in the history of the Eastern Empire, because it’s both.
But when you have exclusive claims, then suddenly these very communities that are sort of consolidated and have this very strong identity, but you also alienate other groups— … that you then are in conflict with. So this is why I, for one, can’t come down on whether, you know, Christianity is more of a unifying force or a divisive force in the history of the Eastern Empire, because it’s both.
Lex Fridman
And also trying to figure out whether the unifying or the divisive aspects are a feature or a bug.
And also trying to figure out whether the unifying or the divisive aspects are a feature or a bug.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
Maybe some of the divisive elements is a way for society internally to try to, much like the civil wars, to try to figure itself out.
Maybe some of the divisive elements is a way for society internally to try to, much like the civil wars, to try to figure itself out.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
So sometimes tension and conflict is a good mechanism for figuring out what do the people want.
So sometimes tension and conflict is a good mechanism for figuring out what do the people want.
Anthony Kaldellis
Or what’s the truth, right?
Or what’s the truth, right?
Lex Fridman
Or what’s the truth.
Or what’s the truth.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. So the story that it likes to tell itself is that there’s this, like, this one original truth, and the hardcore of true believers is defending that truth at every moment against all of these evil heretics who are coming in-
Yeah. So the story that it likes to tell itself is that there’s this, like, this one original truth, and the hardcore of true believers is defending that truth at every moment against all of these evil heretics who are coming in-
Anthony Kaldellis
… and trying to corrupt it. In reality, what happens is that this truth is something that’s evolving in the course of the controversies. And, like, often they don’t know that they believed that until in retrospect, once they’ve had the fight and the winner has this position, oh, now that turns out to have been the position we always held, right? And this happens again and again and again. You know, a lot of the time, these Christian theologians who get into so much trouble and get branded as heretics and sometimes get sent into exile, they didn’t mean any harm. They often just were stating what they thought everybody believed.
… and trying to corrupt it. In reality, what happens is that this truth is something that’s evolving in the course of the controversies. And, like, often they don’t know that they believed that until in retrospect, once they’ve had the fight and the winner has this position, oh, now that turns out to have been the position we always held, right? And this happens again and again and again. You know, a lot of the time, these Christian theologians who get into so much trouble and get branded as heretics and sometimes get sent into exile, they didn’t mean any harm. They often just were stating what they thought everybody believed.
Anthony Kaldellis
And then when they blurt it out, someone off in Alexandria is like, “What? That’s heresy.” And then now you’re, now you’re in trouble. Now you’re getting into this fight, and you might win, you might lose. But, like, a lot of them were kind of sort of well-intentioned in that way, or they had no intention of starting a fight. But there’s always someone who wants to start a fight.
And then when they blurt it out, someone off in Alexandria is like, “What? That’s heresy.” And then now you’re, now you’re in trouble. Now you’re getting into this fight, and you might win, you might lose. But, like, a lot of them were kind of sort of well-intentioned in that way, or they had no intention of starting a fight. But there’s always someone who wants to start a fight.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, I mean, sometimes the fights are extremely intense over things that I could see on the surface or, like, iconography. It’s like, it seems like a very subtle- … debate, like almost academic. And then a large number of people don’t see it as academic. They, they do see it like “the devil put ideas in your head that are—” … completely wrong, and it’s, it’s fascinating how that kind of division can emerge. I mean, the impossible question, and I apologize for asking it, but maybe just worthwhile to try to think about it is, on the grand scale of centuries of the East Roman Empire, is religion a constructive or a destructive force for the empire? Did it help it flourish, or did it hold it back?
Yeah, I mean, sometimes the fights are extremely intense over things that I could see on the surface or, like, iconography. It’s like, it seems like a very subtle- … debate, like almost academic. And then a large number of people don’t see it as academic. They, they do see it like “the devil put ideas in your head that are—” … completely wrong, and it’s, it’s fascinating how that kind of division can emerge. I mean, the impossible question, and I apologize for asking it, but maybe just worthwhile to try to think about it is, on the grand scale of centuries of the East Roman Empire, is religion a constructive or a destructive force for the empire? Did it help it flourish, or did it hold it back?
Anthony Kaldellis
This society identified itself increasingly with what it saw as orthodoxy. Orthodoxy just means correct belief. I mean-
This society identified itself increasingly with what it saw as orthodoxy. Orthodoxy just means correct belief. I mean-
Anthony Kaldellis
… like every religion ultimately thinks it’s orthodox, right? That’s– But that’s the conventional name, right? Orthodoxy today might be called Greek Orthodoxy. And I mean, it’s such an essential part of the culture. It really is. I can’t think of the two of them inde… I mean, I try to because, as a historian, I have to test the models, you know, and try to see these things as independent of each other. But ultimately, it’s very difficult to disentangle them, and I would say that to the degree that this is a successful society historically, that its religion definitely contributed to that and played a role in it. Not without cost, right? It mattered to them. They valued it, but things that matter to you have a cost.
… like every religion ultimately thinks it’s orthodox, right? That’s– But that’s the conventional name, right? Orthodoxy today might be called Greek Orthodoxy. And I mean, it’s such an essential part of the culture. It really is. I can’t think of the two of them inde… I mean, I try to because, as a historian, I have to test the models, you know, and try to see these things as independent of each other. But ultimately, it’s very difficult to disentangle them, and I would say that to the degree that this is a successful society historically, that its religion definitely contributed to that and played a role in it. Not without cost, right? It mattered to them. They valued it, but things that matter to you have a cost.
Anthony Kaldellis
And, and they, they paid that price. They were willing to pay that price for it. For example, at the very end, they had to choose between Catholicism, Western rule, where they essentially have to compromise on their faith, or rule by Muslims, the Turks, where they would not have to compromise their faith. And some of them were explicit that they were preferring option B, because the Turks will at least respect our identity. Like, that’s a cost.
And, and they, they paid that price. They were willing to pay that price for it. For example, at the very end, they had to choose between Catholicism, Western rule, where they essentially have to compromise on their faith, or rule by Muslims, the Turks, where they would not have to compromise their faith. And some of them were explicit that they were preferring option B, because the Turks will at least respect our identity. Like, that’s a cost.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. But there’s other layers, like taxation and- … the, the, the functions of government- … that are connected to religion to the degree it interacts with the, the tax system. But it feels like that’s the engine of the society and, and religion is more like the cultural layer.
Yeah. But there’s other layers, like taxation and- … the, the, the functions of government- … that are connected to religion to the degree it interacts with the, the tax system. But it feels like that’s the engine of the society and, and religion is more like the cultural layer.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. So this is why I said that I try in thinking of the models that we use to understand the society, not to assume that religion is everywhere and for everything. Now, I have colleagues who do that, and I would disagree with them about this, but you’re exactly right. There are elements of this society that I like to see as their own thing.
Yeah. So this is why I said that I try in thinking of the models that we use to understand the society, not to assume that religion is everywhere and for everything. Now, I have colleagues who do that, and I would disagree with them about this, but you’re exactly right. There are elements of this society that I like to see as their own thing.
Anthony Kaldellis
Like the Roman identity, for example. It’s not the same as Orthodoxy. But also the operations of the state. Those are very pragmatic things, and you see them intersect with religion in, largely in areas of terminology or the vocabulary that they use or, you know, like at the top, but not at their actual functioning. So in my field, I’m a historian who’s tried to promote other aspects of the culture as having a kind of integrity of their own and not to subsume them all within Orthodoxy.
Like the Roman identity, for example. It’s not the same as Orthodoxy. But also the operations of the state. Those are very pragmatic things, and you see them intersect with religion in, largely in areas of terminology or the vocabulary that they use or, you know, like at the top, but not at their actual functioning. So in my field, I’m a historian who’s tried to promote other aspects of the culture as having a kind of integrity of their own and not to subsume them all within Orthodoxy.
Lex Fridman
So, I mean, again, an impossible way of asking the same question. If you asked a Roman, a million Romans across a thousand years, “Are you a Roman or a Christian?” what would be the answer for that?
So, I mean, again, an impossible way of asking the same question. If you asked a Roman, a million Romans across a thousand years, “Are you a Roman or a Christian?” what would be the answer for that?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, both. Oh, absolutely.
Oh, both. Oh, absolutely.
Lex Fridman
No, you don’t get to say both. You’re not allowed to do that.
No, you don’t get to say both. You’re not allowed to do that.
Anthony Kaldellis
Why not? It’s the-
Why not? It’s the-
Lex Fridman
Well, you’re-
Well, you’re-
Anthony Kaldellis
It’s the true answer.
It’s the true answer.
Lex Fridman
Okay. So you’re saying they’re really tied together.
Okay. So you’re saying they’re really tied together.
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, they overlap. But if you were to… And this might be a somewhat more subtle conversation than most of them would want to have, but if you were to say, “Is Roman and Christian the same thing to you?” If they thought about it for a little while, they’d quickly be able to say no. Because there were, I mean, just logically, there were Christians who were not Romans.
Well, they overlap. But if you were to… And this might be a somewhat more subtle conversation than most of them would want to have, but if you were to say, “Is Roman and Christian the same thing to you?” If they thought about it for a little while, they’d quickly be able to say no. Because there were, I mean, just logically, there were Christians who were not Romans.
Anthony Kaldellis
The Bulgarians or the Rus or, you know, whoever. There were lots of Christians who were not Roman, and they did not regard them as Roman just because they were Christian. Conversely, they knew perfectly well that there had been Romans who were not Christians, and they knew this how? Because in the churches like almost every week, they celebrated martyrs who had been killed by the Roman emperors in the past. And so it was, like, the performance of violence by Roman emperors against Christians was, like, something they remembered. They knew perfectly well. So those two things did not overlap perfectly.
The Bulgarians or the Rus or, you know, whoever. There were lots of Christians who were not Roman, and they did not regard them as Roman just because they were Christian. Conversely, they knew perfectly well that there had been Romans who were not Christians, and they knew this how? Because in the churches like almost every week, they celebrated martyrs who had been killed by the Roman emperors in the past. And so it was, like, the performance of violence by Roman emperors against Christians was, like, something they remembered. They knew perfectly well. So those two things did not overlap perfectly.
Anthony Kaldellis
And there were some contexts in which you would be more Roman, and there were some contexts in which you would be more Christian. And you find characters who, and I love to do this. I find characters who as some sources say didn’t pay too much attention to Christian things. Like, they were just politicians. They were just doing their work. And then you find characters who, like, devote themselves. They go all in on Orthodoxy and, like, monasticism. They just don’t care about the Roman stuff at all.
And there were some contexts in which you would be more Roman, and there were some contexts in which you would be more Christian. And you find characters who, and I love to do this. I find characters who as some sources say didn’t pay too much attention to Christian things. Like, they were just politicians. They were just doing their work. And then you find characters who, like, devote themselves. They go all in on Orthodoxy and, like, monasticism. They just don’t care about the Roman stuff at all.
Anthony Kaldellis
And that is, in fact, part of the reason why I like this society, is because it has these kinds of options for people to choose. And there’s another one. There’s the Greek stuff, too, because their language is Greek, their literature is Greek, and so there are people in the society who go all in on the Greek stuff. Right? And I see this society as this kind of laboratory of these three elements coexisting in these fascinating combinations. Usually it’s combinations, right? But sometimes you’ll find people who are like, kinda try to be purists in one way or another. And it’s the only society in history in which you can do this, ’cause it’s the only society that’s Roman and Christian and Greek. But in different ways, right?
And that is, in fact, part of the reason why I like this society, is because it has these kinds of options for people to choose. And there’s another one. There’s the Greek stuff, too, because their language is Greek, their literature is Greek, and so there are people in the society who go all in on the Greek stuff. Right? And I see this society as this kind of laboratory of these three elements coexisting in these fascinating combinations. Usually it’s combinations, right? But sometimes you’ll find people who are like, kinda try to be purists in one way or another. And it’s the only society in history in which you can do this, ’cause it’s the only society that’s Roman and Christian and Greek. But in different ways, right?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, unfortunately, I think it’s tempting, but it’s probably impossible to say if we remove the taxation system, would the, would the Roman Empire be more or less successful? If we removed religion, would it be more or less successful? If we removed Greek and kept it Latin all the way through, would it be more or less successful? It’s probably impossible to do this kind of analysis ’cause they’re all so deeply integrated.
Yeah, unfortunately, I think it’s tempting, but it’s probably impossible to say if we remove the taxation system, would the, would the Roman Empire be more or less successful? If we removed religion, would it be more or less successful? If we removed Greek and kept it Latin all the way through, would it be more or less successful? It’s probably impossible to do this kind of analysis ’cause they’re all so deeply integrated.
Anthony Kaldellis
And fundamentally, it also wouldn’t be what it was. It would be something different.
And fundamentally, it also wouldn’t be what it was. It would be something different.
Lex Fridman
But there is a big temptation, and this is at the core of your work, to understand why did the East Roman Empire last as long as it did. And why did the broader Roman Empire last as long as it did? Because it is one of, if not the most successful empires in terms of duration and stability in a very dense part of the world.
But there is a big temptation, and this is at the core of your work, to understand why did the East Roman Empire last as long as it did. And why did the broader Roman Empire last as long as it did? Because it is one of, if not the most successful empires in terms of duration and stability in a very dense part of the world.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s actually like my next project. I’m starting to write a book trying to explain, just kind of from an analytical standpoint, why.
That’s actually like my next project. I’m starting to write a book trying to explain, just kind of from an analytical standpoint, why.
Fall of the Western Roman Empire
Lex Fridman
How did it last so long? A lot of your work kinda hints at it. It’s here and there. But you’re trying to do more systematic. So, and we’ll keep hinting at it. But to put a bow tie on Constantinople, it went from a very low population of maybe 25,000 people to 500,000 people in just two centuries. So can you explain how that happened?
How did it last so long? A lot of your work kinda hints at it. It’s here and there. But you’re trying to do more systematic. So, and we’ll keep hinting at it. But to put a bow tie on Constantinople, it went from a very low population of maybe 25,000 people to 500,000 people in just two centuries. So can you explain how that happened?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, it didn’t happen through just demographic growth and reproduction in the city itself. That rate of growth is impossible for an ancient city. So when I say 20,000, 25,000, that’s possibly what the ancient city of Byzantium had-
Well, it didn’t happen through just demographic growth and reproduction in the city itself. That rate of growth is impossible for an ancient city. So when I say 20,000, 25,000, that’s possibly what the ancient city of Byzantium had-
Anthony Kaldellis
… when Constantine decided to found Constantinople, and it grew to a city of a half a million in two centuries. That can only have been done in one way, and that is immigration from the provinces. So people must have been moving there in large numbers, which is a movement that we can’t see very clearly in the sources, but we have to infer it and then try to explain it. So also there’s another factor, which is that ancient cities we now know or suspect are what some historians call death traps. In other words, the density of disease is such that ancient cities probably are losing something like 1, 2, possibly 3% of their population per year. So just in order to stay with a stable population, they have to import people.
… when Constantine decided to found Constantinople, and it grew to a city of a half a million in two centuries. That can only have been done in one way, and that is immigration from the provinces. So people must have been moving there in large numbers, which is a movement that we can’t see very clearly in the sources, but we have to infer it and then try to explain it. So also there’s another factor, which is that ancient cities we now know or suspect are what some historians call death traps. In other words, the density of disease is such that ancient cities probably are losing something like 1, 2, possibly 3% of their population per year. So just in order to stay with a stable population, they have to import people.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? Now, they’re not like 17th century London. They’re not that bad.
Right? Now, they’re not like 17th century London. They’re not that bad.
Lex Fridman
Do diseases and plagues seem to be prevalent?
Do diseases and plagues seem to be prevalent?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yeah. Now, you know, Roman cities have some corrections for these sorts of things, like the way they distribute the water through the city. Anyway, they, they weren’t as bad as they could’ve been, but there’s that. So not only to keep the population steady, but to expand it so dramatically means that a lot of people are coming in from the provinces, mostly the Greek-speaking provinces. So, you know, Greece, Asia Minor, and some of the major cities in the East that are Greek-speaking. And I start to wonder, like, well, how did this happen? Like, who are these people, for one thing? And then I did some simple calculations. So I mentioned earlier that we have something like two and a half thousand senators-
Oh, yeah. Now, you know, Roman cities have some corrections for these sorts of things, like the way they distribute the water through the city. Anyway, they, they weren’t as bad as they could’ve been, but there’s that. So not only to keep the population steady, but to expand it so dramatically means that a lot of people are coming in from the provinces, mostly the Greek-speaking provinces. So, you know, Greece, Asia Minor, and some of the major cities in the East that are Greek-speaking. And I start to wonder, like, well, how did this happen? Like, who are these people, for one thing? And then I did some simple calculations. So I mentioned earlier that we have something like two and a half thousand senators-
Anthony Kaldellis
… Who are required initially to reside in Constantinople. Well, senators don’t live in bachelor pads. Senators have manors. They have household staff, right? In Rome at the time, there’s a calculation that a senatorial household was something like 100 people, right? Just servants, slaves, dancing girls, cooks, barbers, whatever, right? So let’s assume sort of conservatively that in Constantinople it’s only 30 people, which might be low, right? So if you do the math, you’re starting to get something like, I mean, closer to 100,000 people, right? And that’s just by bringing in senators.
… Who are required initially to reside in Constantinople. Well, senators don’t live in bachelor pads. Senators have manors. They have household staff, right? In Rome at the time, there’s a calculation that a senatorial household was something like 100 people, right? Just servants, slaves, dancing girls, cooks, barbers, whatever, right? So let’s assume sort of conservatively that in Constantinople it’s only 30 people, which might be low, right? So if you do the math, you’re starting to get something like, I mean, closer to 100,000 people, right? And that’s just by bringing in senators.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? They come with people. So I think this was the nucleus of the population. Now then Constantine also makes provision for possibly up to like 200,000 people to receive the, the grain dole, the bread. So that would’ve incentivized even more people to travel there because there are-
Right? They come with people. So I think this was the nucleus of the population. Now then Constantine also makes provision for possibly up to like 200,000 people to receive the, the grain dole, the bread. So that would’ve incentivized even more people to travel there because there are-
Lex Fridman
So you get free bread.
So you get free bread.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. And you can’t live on that alone, but it is, it’s something.
Yes. And you can’t live on that alone, but it is, it’s something.
Lex Fridman
Incentive. Is it true that he diverted resources from Rome to Constantinople?
Incentive. Is it true that he diverted resources from Rome to Constantinople?
Anthony Kaldellis
Absolutely. Oh, yeah. That grain, that’s coming from Egypt. So New Rome is literally stealing food from the mouth of Old Rome. Now, Old Rome doesn’t starve because they, they divert other… Like from North Africa and Sicily, you can feed Rome, right?
Absolutely. Oh, yeah. That grain, that’s coming from Egypt. So New Rome is literally stealing food from the mouth of Old Rome. Now, Old Rome doesn’t starve because they, they divert other… Like from North Africa and Sicily, you can feed Rome, right?
Lex Fridman
But it sends a strong signal to the people living in Old Rome that long term we should probably move.
But it sends a strong signal to the people living in Old Rome that long term we should probably move.
Anthony Kaldellis
Some people do move. So we know of some senators who move from Rome. It sends a signal about the priorities of the state, like they’re investing much more in the East. And that the East would be regarded as an equal parallel Roman, you know, world. Yeah.
Some people do move. So we know of some senators who move from Rome. It sends a signal about the priorities of the state, like they’re investing much more in the East. And that the East would be regarded as an equal parallel Roman, you know, world. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
As we talk about diverting resources, slowly the West declines and collapses in 476 AD. So the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD, and in 476 AD, the last Western emperor is deposed, marking the end of the Western Roman Empire. High-level question: What is the reason for that decline and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire? So nonstop civil wars, as we’ve talked about, weak emperors. There’s an economic money crisis, so shrinking tax base, rising army costs. There was a loss of key provinces, especially in North Africa. Reliance on contracted barbarian troops as they immigrated more and more into- … The Western Roman Empire. Cascading invasions, migrations amplified by Hun pressure, and then the East-West split. The richer East survives, the West can’t stabilize under- … that split.
As we talk about diverting resources, slowly the West declines and collapses in 476 AD. So the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD, and in 476 AD, the last Western emperor is deposed, marking the end of the Western Roman Empire. High-level question: What is the reason for that decline and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire? So nonstop civil wars, as we’ve talked about, weak emperors. There’s an economic money crisis, so shrinking tax base, rising army costs. There was a loss of key provinces, especially in North Africa. Reliance on contracted barbarian troops as they immigrated more and more into- … The Western Roman Empire. Cascading invasions, migrations amplified by Hun pressure, and then the East-West split. The richer East survives, the West can’t stabilize under- … that split.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. The crux of the matter is that barbarian armies, so armies from outside the empire, put increasing pressure on it during the fifth century. And for whatever reason, when the Roman state failed to sort of suppress one of them and, say, settled them here or allowed them to have here or couldn’t stop them and they took over a province like the Vandals did in North Africa- … this created this kind of vicious cycle because then the Roman state lost access to the resources from those provinces, that is the taxes, and without those resources, they couldn’t, you know, maintain, mobilize, pay for their armies.
Yeah. The crux of the matter is that barbarian armies, so armies from outside the empire, put increasing pressure on it during the fifth century. And for whatever reason, when the Roman state failed to sort of suppress one of them and, say, settled them here or allowed them to have here or couldn’t stop them and they took over a province like the Vandals did in North Africa- … this created this kind of vicious cycle because then the Roman state lost access to the resources from those provinces, that is the taxes, and without those resources, they couldn’t, you know, maintain, mobilize, pay for their armies.
Anthony Kaldellis
Then they had fewer armies to handle the next wave of barbarians that came in. The previous barbarians who settled kind of declared their kind of independence. They also could not be put down, and so this created a vicious cycle that just continued in that way. It’s not rocket science, actually. I mean, you can see it playing out. Yeah. Now, who these groups are, where they came from, why did they cross, that, that, those are different questions, right? But from the Roman standpoint, that’s how it was experienced. These are armies that can defeat a Roman field army-
Then they had fewer armies to handle the next wave of barbarians that came in. The previous barbarians who settled kind of declared their kind of independence. They also could not be put down, and so this created a vicious cycle that just continued in that way. It’s not rocket science, actually. I mean, you can see it playing out. Yeah. Now, who these groups are, where they came from, why did they cross, that, that, those are different questions, right? But from the Roman standpoint, that’s how it was experienced. These are armies that can defeat a Roman field army-
Anthony Kaldellis
… right, in battle. And sometimes they do. And they then settle and take over territories, and then you lose the revenues, and so you can’t recruit your own armies. And so, anyway, that, that’s the kind of cycle. The East tried to help. Occasionally, they would send forces, but they were also subject to some of the same pressures. ‘Cause remember, the Goths cross the Danube for the first time in a major way in 376. Then you have the Battle of Adrianople a couple years later, where, like, one and a half field armies is just annihilated, and the Emperor Valens dies, and the Goths are just, like, kind of loose in the Balkans. And there was then a long war with them, four years.
… right, in battle. And sometimes they do. And they then settle and take over territories, and then you lose the revenues, and so you can’t recruit your own armies. And so, anyway, that, that’s the kind of cycle. The East tried to help. Occasionally, they would send forces, but they were also subject to some of the same pressures. ‘Cause remember, the Goths cross the Danube for the first time in a major way in 376. Then you have the Battle of Adrianople a couple years later, where, like, one and a half field armies is just annihilated, and the Emperor Valens dies, and the Goths are just, like, kind of loose in the Balkans. And there was then a long war with them, four years.
Anthony Kaldellis
It results in a kind of truce where neither side wins, and the Romans, for the first time, accept the presence of this quasi-independent Gothic army in the territory of the empire. This is unprecedented, as I said, and it creates a lot of tensions and dysfunctions. Okay, so why does the East survive and the West does not, right?
It results in a kind of truce where neither side wins, and the Romans, for the first time, accept the presence of this quasi-independent Gothic army in the territory of the empire. This is unprecedented, as I said, and it creates a lot of tensions and dysfunctions. Okay, so why does the East survive and the West does not, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
There’s… And so… Lots of reasons that we can give here, but one of them is the geography that we were talking about earlier. In other words, without a fleet, which they don’t have, the Goths can’t cross over from Thrace or the western Balkans to Asia Minor and go plunder some of the more prosperous provinces. So they’re stuck in the Balkans. They’re gradually pushed kind of in toward the western Balkans, which is, like, the worst part, you know, at the time, like, you wanna be in. And eventually, they just decide, “Well, you know, it’s kinda nicer in Naples.” And so they go to Italy, right? Just because there’s just a lot more resources there for them. And that’s one way that the East just kind of manages to…
There’s… And so… Lots of reasons that we can give here, but one of them is the geography that we were talking about earlier. In other words, without a fleet, which they don’t have, the Goths can’t cross over from Thrace or the western Balkans to Asia Minor and go plunder some of the more prosperous provinces. So they’re stuck in the Balkans. They’re gradually pushed kind of in toward the western Balkans, which is, like, the worst part, you know, at the time, like, you wanna be in. And eventually, they just decide, “Well, you know, it’s kinda nicer in Naples.” And so they go to Italy, right? Just because there’s just a lot more resources there for them. And that’s one way that the East just kind of manages to…
Anthony Kaldellis
It doesn’t do this deliberately, but the geography kind of pushes these invaders to the West.
It doesn’t do this deliberately, but the geography kind of pushes these invaders to the West.
Lex Fridman
So that’s one. So geography is some of it’s sort of the luck of geography and- … both of the invaders and the geography of the empire. But, you know, the, the East had a lot of invaders since- … and was able to still barely at times- … survive the invaders, so… And some of that could be luck. Some of it could be about the nature of the invaders and the effectiveness of their military, all that kind of stuff.
So that’s one. So geography is some of it’s sort of the luck of geography and- … both of the invaders and the geography of the empire. But, you know, the, the East had a lot of invaders since- … and was able to still barely at times- … survive the invaders, so… And some of that could be luck. Some of it could be about the nature of the invaders and the effectiveness of their military, all that kind of stuff.
Anthony Kaldellis
By the way, it worked in the other direction, too. So if you have, like, Persians or Arabs coming into Asia Minor from the East, they usually can’t cross over into your Balkan provinces. So you can fall back on one side or the other side. They… If you fortified Constantinople so that it’s an impregnable bunker, which it was, right? So you, you’re holding your command center in Constantinople. You can alternate between your European or your Asian provinces, depending on where the trouble is. You can call in reinforcements from either side. So the East does have that kind of advantage. This is not the reason why it survives for as long as it does, though it is a reason. You know, also, they acquire flamethrowers at some point, which- … those help, too.
By the way, it worked in the other direction, too. So if you have, like, Persians or Arabs coming into Asia Minor from the East, they usually can’t cross over into your Balkan provinces. So you can fall back on one side or the other side. They… If you fortified Constantinople so that it’s an impregnable bunker, which it was, right? So you, you’re holding your command center in Constantinople. You can alternate between your European or your Asian provinces, depending on where the trouble is. You can call in reinforcements from either side. So the East does have that kind of advantage. This is not the reason why it survives for as long as it does, though it is a reason. You know, also, they acquire flamethrowers at some point, which- … those help, too.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? Ultimately, I think it’s the decision made by local communities to stick with the Roman state, like, ultimately. Like, they’re not going to actively side with invaders. And when the trouble passes, they restore communities with Constantinople immediately. Like, this is their natural political home. And, and that’s the question that I’m really trying to answer, like, why does that happen?
Right? Ultimately, I think it’s the decision made by local communities to stick with the Roman state, like, ultimately. Like, they’re not going to actively side with invaders. And when the trouble passes, they restore communities with Constantinople immediately. Like, this is their natural political home. And, and that’s the question that I’m really trying to answer, like, why does that happen?
Lex Fridman
You know, we should say, just, just like we’ve articulated multiple times, that it, the Roman Empire survives- so it’s not like the Roman Empire collapsed and another Byzantine Empire was born. Really, there is a shift that happens, and part of that shift is because of Constantine, right? It’s not just about where the capital is, but I’m sure that there’s just a general move towards that direction from the West to the East. And, and that in many ways, you know, weak emperors and, and the West, the weak leaders, the structure of government, all these kinds of elements put together- … maybe demographic shifts and declines that have to do with the fact that the center of the empire has moved. And so ultimately-
You know, we should say, just, just like we’ve articulated multiple times, that it, the Roman Empire survives- so it’s not like the Roman Empire collapsed and another Byzantine Empire was born. Really, there is a shift that happens, and part of that shift is because of Constantine, right? It’s not just about where the capital is, but I’m sure that there’s just a general move towards that direction from the West to the East. And, and that in many ways, you know, weak emperors and, and the West, the weak leaders, the structure of government, all these kinds of elements put together- … maybe demographic shifts and declines that have to do with the fact that the center of the empire has moved. And so ultimately-
Lex Fridman
… it’s not that the West Roman Empire collapsed, it is that the center of the Roman Empire shifted. And because of that, the historic West collapsed.
… it’s not that the West Roman Empire collapsed, it is that the center of the Roman Empire shifted. And because of that, the historic West collapsed.
Anthony Kaldellis
It’s quite striking. So for example, already by, like in the 430s, Constantinople is basically codifying Roman law for the West. So Roman law in Latin is codified in Constantinople, and then sent to the West as, “Oh, here’s your law code.” And this is in the 430s, so after the alleged division between the two, which like I said, is kind of loose. It’s not hard and fast. In the 6th century, it is the East that reconquers part of the West under Justinian.
It’s quite striking. So for example, already by, like in the 430s, Constantinople is basically codifying Roman law for the West. So Roman law in Latin is codified in Constantinople, and then sent to the West as, “Oh, here’s your law code.” And this is in the 430s, so after the alleged division between the two, which like I said, is kind of loose. It’s not hard and fast. In the 6th century, it is the East that reconquers part of the West under Justinian.
Anthony Kaldellis
And not only that, he also recodifies Roman law on a much bigger scale, and then that law becomes Western law. So in a certain sense, Roman law as we know it comes from Constantinople. It doesn’t come from ancient Rome. I mean, ultimately it comes from ancient Rome, but we don’t have those versions of it. We have the East Roman versions of it. It is East Rome that reconquers Rome. This is a funny inversion, you know, because Constantinople is situated in a province, Thrace, which always was sort of considered backwards, right? In the time of, like, the early Caesars, if you were in Rome and you thought, you know, Thrace, it was like, “Ugh.” It’s like, you know, some sort of, yeah, armpit of the Roman Empire or something, you know?
And not only that, he also recodifies Roman law on a much bigger scale, and then that law becomes Western law. So in a certain sense, Roman law as we know it comes from Constantinople. It doesn’t come from ancient Rome. I mean, ultimately it comes from ancient Rome, but we don’t have those versions of it. We have the East Roman versions of it. It is East Rome that reconquers Rome. This is a funny inversion, you know, because Constantinople is situated in a province, Thrace, which always was sort of considered backwards, right? In the time of, like, the early Caesars, if you were in Rome and you thought, you know, Thrace, it was like, “Ugh.” It’s like, you know, some sort of, yeah, armpit of the Roman Empire or something, you know?
Anthony Kaldellis
But by Justinian’s time, it’s complete inversion. Like, the capital of the Roman world, the heart of it is there, and Rome is this kind of backwater provincial city in Italy, you know, that you’ve just liberated from the Goths, and it’s kind of in ruins. There are wolves roaming the streets of the Forum. So this is a complete overhaul of the centers of power. It’s turned inside out almost.
But by Justinian’s time, it’s complete inversion. Like, the capital of the Roman world, the heart of it is there, and Rome is this kind of backwater provincial city in Italy, you know, that you’ve just liberated from the Goths, and it’s kind of in ruins. There are wolves roaming the streets of the Forum. So this is a complete overhaul of the centers of power. It’s turned inside out almost.
Eunuchs, Taxes, and Power
Lex Fridman
And I think it’s fair to say that the reason the East… Part of the reason the East lasted as long as it did is the topic that we’ve mentioned, which is the structure of government. So can we just zoom out once again and explain the key ways the government functioned in the East Roman Empire, and how it evolved over the lifetime of the empire?
And I think it’s fair to say that the reason the East… Part of the reason the East lasted as long as it did is the topic that we’ve mentioned, which is the structure of government. So can we just zoom out once again and explain the key ways the government functioned in the East Roman Empire, and how it evolved over the lifetime of the empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
Very broadly speaking, there’s civilian and military, right? And you might actually add the church. It’s entirely plausible to treat the church as a kind of government institution at this time. But let’s just stick with military and civilian. The military is pretty straightforward, would be recognizable to any student of military history. This is how you recruit, organize, equip, pay, and lead soldiers. And the East Roman state tends to have a larger military, at least paper strength. Active is a different matter. Like, how many soldiers you take on a campaign is a different matter, but how many soldiers you maintain, like, in the provinces generally, right, is a… It tends to be on the large side for a medieval society, right?
Very broadly speaking, there’s civilian and military, right? And you might actually add the church. It’s entirely plausible to treat the church as a kind of government institution at this time. But let’s just stick with military and civilian. The military is pretty straightforward, would be recognizable to any student of military history. This is how you recruit, organize, equip, pay, and lead soldiers. And the East Roman state tends to have a larger military, at least paper strength. Active is a different matter. Like, how many soldiers you take on a campaign is a different matter, but how many soldiers you maintain, like, in the provinces generally, right, is a… It tends to be on the large side for a medieval society, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
So it compares favorably to, say, the Caliphate later on, which is a much more massive territorial entity. So the military is that. It can have anywhere between 100,000 at a minimum, at a low point, up to maybe about 250,000 at a high point, depending on the period. It’s a lot of people. It’s a lot of men. Factor in their families, right? These are also, like, part of the whole, you know, military economic complex, if you will.
So it compares favorably to, say, the Caliphate later on, which is a much more massive territorial entity. So the military is that. It can have anywhere between 100,000 at a minimum, at a low point, up to maybe about 250,000 at a high point, depending on the period. It’s a lot of people. It’s a lot of men. Factor in their families, right? These are also, like, part of the whole, you know, military economic complex, if you will.
Lex Fridman
And they’re career military, so, like, this is their job.
And they’re career military, so, like, this is their job.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And is the military for most of the history of the East Roman Empire defensive military?
And is the military for most of the history of the East Roman Empire defensive military?
Anthony Kaldellis
Mostly, but not always.
Mostly, but not always.
Lex Fridman
And we’ll talk about Justinian.
And we’ll talk about Justinian.
Anthony Kaldellis
And so then you have the civilian administration. Civilian administration does a number of things. Principally, it is to find the funds to pay for this army, which is the single largest expense on the state budget, right? And so in order to find those funds, it has to have a census of the assets, and it has to be able to tax them, and there are lots of different ways of doing that. So the civilian administration has a number of tax bureaus, record-keeping, this sort of thing, also a legal branch for resolving disputes with the imperial fisc. Okay. But the civilian administration does a number of other things, too.
And so then you have the civilian administration. Civilian administration does a number of things. Principally, it is to find the funds to pay for this army, which is the single largest expense on the state budget, right? And so in order to find those funds, it has to have a census of the assets, and it has to be able to tax them, and there are lots of different ways of doing that. So the civilian administration has a number of tax bureaus, record-keeping, this sort of thing, also a legal branch for resolving disputes with the imperial fisc. Okay. But the civilian administration does a number of other things, too.
Anthony Kaldellis
For example, the whole legal regulation of the empire: the courts, judges, courts of appeal, or also issuing laws, keeping records, all of this. And those are the main bureaus that have to do with the subjects of the empire.
For example, the whole legal regulation of the empire: the courts, judges, courts of appeal, or also issuing laws, keeping records, all of this. And those are the main bureaus that have to do with the subjects of the empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
The emperors obviously maintain bureaus that are for things like diplomacy, right, or running the palace staff because the palace is a huge institution, right? And then there are a number of endowments that, you know, major churches, Hagia Sophia, for example, has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you know, readers to whatever, and so they need to be paid, and so you need endowments. The imperial household, it has expenses, so it needs endowments, right? So there’s a lot of land that’s earmarked for these kinds of expenses, that requires administration. So this multiplies, right? I mean, go on and on and on and on.
The emperors obviously maintain bureaus that are for things like diplomacy, right, or running the palace staff because the palace is a huge institution, right? And then there are a number of endowments that, you know, major churches, Hagia Sophia, for example, has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you know, readers to whatever, and so they need to be paid, and so you need endowments. The imperial household, it has expenses, so it needs endowments, right? So there’s a lot of land that’s earmarked for these kinds of expenses, that requires administration. So this multiplies, right? I mean, go on and on and on and on.
Lex Fridman
And I’m sure the tax code is not a simple flat tax. It’s- … probably incredibly complicated. So it’s just like in the United States, it feels like the majority of the United States is basically lawyers and the IRS. That’s maybe 98%, I think, is lawyers.
And I’m sure the tax code is not a simple flat tax. It’s- … probably incredibly complicated. So it’s just like in the United States, it feels like the majority of the United States is basically lawyers and the IRS. That’s maybe 98%, I think, is lawyers.
Anthony Kaldellis
Lawyers.
Lawyers.
Lex Fridman
I’m not sure it’s scientifically-
I’m not sure it’s scientifically-
Anthony Kaldellis
I thought they shrunk the IRS down now to a size that it can’t, like, actually do anything.
I thought they shrunk the IRS down now to a size that it can’t, like, actually do anything.
Lex Fridman
They shrunk it down-
They shrunk it down-
Anthony Kaldellis
I thought it was just-
I thought it was just-
Lex Fridman
… to just 90% now.
… to just 90% now.
Anthony Kaldellis
90, just 90.
90, just 90.
Lex Fridman
No. I think there is something—this is another conversation about human nature and about the nature of governments, but there’s something about, like, I think it’s impossible to have an IRS-type organization that doesn’t grow. I think maybe with good intentions because you can’t—you have to, like— … everybody always comes to you, “Well, I don’t… Here’s my special case. I want my tax to be lower.” And they kind of add another line. “All right, if you have— … purple hair, you—”
No. I think there is something—this is another conversation about human nature and about the nature of governments, but there’s something about, like, I think it’s impossible to have an IRS-type organization that doesn’t grow. I think maybe with good intentions because you can’t—you have to, like— … everybody always comes to you, “Well, I don’t… Here’s my special case. I want my tax to be lower.” And they kind of add another line. “All right, if you have— … purple hair, you—”
Anthony Kaldellis
Right, right.
Right, right.
Lex Fridman
… the tax decrease. And so you keep adding, and then of course, the more you add, the more opaque the thing becomes. Therefore, corruption seeps in or, you know, maybe not like official corruption, but— … corruption light, and then that tax code grows, and then all of a sudden you have these big institutions that then—
… the tax decrease. And so you keep adding, and then of course, the more you add, the more opaque the thing becomes. Therefore, corruption seeps in or, you know, maybe not like official corruption, but— … corruption light, and then that tax code grows, and then all of a sudden you have these big institutions that then—
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes
Yes
Lex Fridman
… encourage corruption, and then there’s a bureaucracy, and there’s a momentum, and this is just how humans are.
… encourage corruption, and then there’s a bureaucracy, and there’s a momentum, and this is just how humans are.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. So this happens in East Roman society too. I’ll give you some examples. So there’s not a tax code as such, but what you— The way it operates is through basically exemptions. So you petition for an exemption. You might be a monastery, you might be a wealthy— You might be someone well-connected to the court. You might be a struggling provincial village, and you petition the emperor or some official, and you say, “Hey, we know we had a bad season,” or, “The barbarians came through and they took all of our… We can’t pay the taxes. Could we have an exemption?” And emperors often are granting these exemptions for very specific things, like maybe for this year or for that tax or whatever.
Yes. So this happens in East Roman society too. I’ll give you some examples. So there’s not a tax code as such, but what you— The way it operates is through basically exemptions. So you petition for an exemption. You might be a monastery, you might be a wealthy— You might be someone well-connected to the court. You might be a struggling provincial village, and you petition the emperor or some official, and you say, “Hey, we know we had a bad season,” or, “The barbarians came through and they took all of our… We can’t pay the taxes. Could we have an exemption?” And emperors often are granting these exemptions for very specific things, like maybe for this year or for that tax or whatever.
Anthony Kaldellis
The problem is that the emperors are discovering every once in a while that their officials are granting these exemptions sort of on their own. So every once in a while, the emperors have to, like, clear house when they have to, like, cancel all of these exemptions and start the whole process again. But later on, once we start to have documentation, like maybe in the 11th century, we see that every little—well, not every, but we have all these monasteries, these little villages, these high officials, and they all have these documents that give them exemption from this or that or the other thing, and it gets so complicated, and that’s how it works.
The problem is that the emperors are discovering every once in a while that their officials are granting these exemptions sort of on their own. So every once in a while, the emperors have to, like, clear house when they have to, like, cancel all of these exemptions and start the whole process again. But later on, once we start to have documentation, like maybe in the 11th century, we see that every little—well, not every, but we have all these monasteries, these little villages, these high officials, and they all have these documents that give them exemption from this or that or the other thing, and it gets so complicated, and that’s how it works.
Lex Fridman
But it is the engine of society that makes the whole thing work, ’cause you have to fund—I mean, there’s infrastructure projects, but you have to also fund the army, and the army’s necessary to defend against all the military incursions.
But it is the engine of society that makes the whole thing work, ’cause you have to fund—I mean, there’s infrastructure projects, but you have to also fund the army, and the army’s necessary to defend against all the military incursions.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman
A good fraction of the bureaucracy seemed to have been eunuchs, which are castrated men. Can you explain why this was a prominent thing?
A good fraction of the bureaucracy seemed to have been eunuchs, which are castrated men. Can you explain why this was a prominent thing?
Anthony Kaldellis
The eunuchs are part of the household staff of the emperor. So that would be like—what would it be? The West Wing of the White House or something like this. So they are the people who handle the imperial person, the bedchamber, the organization of palace life—things like banquets, you know, these kinds of things—the wardrobe. And why are they important? So for, for starters, if you’re, like, physically with the emperor all day, right? Like, you’re handling the meetings, you’re… Right? People can come to you and say, “Hey, I need you to put in a good word for whatever,” right? So they can get things done. So you, you bribe them, they get things done. So they’re very useful in this way. They’re also kind of hated for that reason.
The eunuchs are part of the household staff of the emperor. So that would be like—what would it be? The West Wing of the White House or something like this. So they are the people who handle the imperial person, the bedchamber, the organization of palace life—things like banquets, you know, these kinds of things—the wardrobe. And why are they important? So for, for starters, if you’re, like, physically with the emperor all day, right? Like, you’re handling the meetings, you’re… Right? People can come to you and say, “Hey, I need you to put in a good word for whatever,” right? So they can get things done. So you, you bribe them, they get things done. So they’re very useful in this way. They’re also kind of hated for that reason.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? But they’re also kind of there to be hated. In other words, they soak up a lot of the frustration that people sometimes feel when they’re not getting, you know, what they want from the court. Okay. That’s one thing. Here’s the other thing that’s more interesting. How do you as an emperor make sure that your bureaucracy doesn’t displace you? Like, if the bureaucracy is handling all the matters of running the empire, what do we need you for? Right? Like, the bureaucracy can develop rules of its own-
Right? But they’re also kind of there to be hated. In other words, they soak up a lot of the frustration that people sometimes feel when they’re not getting, you know, what they want from the court. Okay. That’s one thing. Here’s the other thing that’s more interesting. How do you as an emperor make sure that your bureaucracy doesn’t displace you? Like, if the bureaucracy is handling all the matters of running the empire, what do we need you for? Right? Like, the bureaucracy can develop rules of its own-
Anthony Kaldellis
… for solving all the problems, for dealing with petitions and exemptions and whatever. Like, they can do it. So where’s your power exactly? So what the emperors did not want is to be displaced or overshadowed by these kinds of more impersonal institutions. And so they would often set up parallel tracks of power. So this could be a bit confusing. So eunuchs were perfect for this reason because often their origin was from outside the empire, or they were former slaves. They weren’t connected to, like, networks of powerful families.
… for solving all the problems, for dealing with petitions and exemptions and whatever. Like, they can do it. So where’s your power exactly? So what the emperors did not want is to be displaced or overshadowed by these kinds of more impersonal institutions. And so they would often set up parallel tracks of power. So this could be a bit confusing. So eunuchs were perfect for this reason because often their origin was from outside the empire, or they were former slaves. They weren’t connected to, like, networks of powerful families.
Anthony Kaldellis
So you knew that they would generally be loyal to you because they depended entirely on you, the emperor, for their position and their power. And what you would sometimes do is you’d say, “Okay, I’m putting you in charge of, like, this army.” Literally, like putting you in charge of an army, just so that you can counterbalance the kind of networks of established generals, and you’ll have, like, no, a eunuch from my wardrobe. You know, I’m putting him in charge. And so this kind of shook things up a little bit so that people who were part of a system or a network could never fully count that that could get them all the power that they wanted. They now they have to answer to this eunuch from the wardrobe who’s, like, outside of their system.
So you knew that they would generally be loyal to you because they depended entirely on you, the emperor, for their position and their power. And what you would sometimes do is you’d say, “Okay, I’m putting you in charge of, like, this army.” Literally, like putting you in charge of an army, just so that you can counterbalance the kind of networks of established generals, and you’ll have, like, no, a eunuch from my wardrobe. You know, I’m putting him in charge. And so this kind of shook things up a little bit so that people who were part of a system or a network could never fully count that that could get them all the power that they wanted. They now they have to answer to this eunuch from the wardrobe who’s, like, outside of their system.
Anthony Kaldellis
And sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent, like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hardass. And he was this little old man. He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh, right?
And sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent, like Narses, Justinian’s general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hardass. And he was this little old man. He was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh, right?
Lex Fridman
Is there some component to them being eunuchs, so they can’t propagate the bloodline?
Is there some component to them being eunuchs, so they can’t propagate the bloodline?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. They can’t have their own family, so they can’t be, like, looking out for their own offspring. They’re kind of, um, isolated individuals who depend entirely on your favor.
Yeah. They can’t have their own family, so they can’t be, like, looking out for their own offspring. They’re kind of, um, isolated individuals who depend entirely on your favor.
Lex Fridman
Is it known whether the castration is almost always by force?
Is it known whether the castration is almost always by force?
Anthony Kaldellis
There are eunuchs in society generally. They’re often bishops. They’re appointed Patriarch of Constantinople sometimes. They’re- … they’re in all kinds of positions. Many of them are children who are enslaved and castrated against their will. Sometimes, however, they are castrated very much according to the will of their families. In some parts of, like in Caucasia, there were some regions that were famous for producing eunuchs, also in, in Persia and so forth. But also, we are pretty sure that this happened within the empire, because there were some families that, like, really wanted to place a eunuch at the court. So from Paphlagonia, there were a number of… This is in northern Asia Minor. And so they would… It was almost like a family strategy.
There are eunuchs in society generally. They’re often bishops. They’re appointed Patriarch of Constantinople sometimes. They’re- … they’re in all kinds of positions. Many of them are children who are enslaved and castrated against their will. Sometimes, however, they are castrated very much according to the will of their families. In some parts of, like in Caucasia, there were some regions that were famous for producing eunuchs, also in, in Persia and so forth. But also, we are pretty sure that this happened within the empire, because there were some families that, like, really wanted to place a eunuch at the court. So from Paphlagonia, there were a number of… This is in northern Asia Minor. And so they would… It was almost like a family strategy.
Lex Fridman
I mean, it’s fascinating. It’s fascinating that they had so much representation in the inner circles— … of the emperor, and therefore had real influence.
I mean, it’s fascinating. It’s fascinating that they had so much representation in the inner circles— … of the emperor, and therefore had real influence.
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yeah. But this was the case always, even in Rome, like in the Julio-Claudians under- … you know, the first Caesars. There are all these powerful eunuchs, and the senatorial class always hates them. I mean, it’s just the same dynamic.
Oh, yeah. But this was the case always, even in Rome, like in the Julio-Claudians under- … you know, the first Caesars. There are all these powerful eunuchs, and the senatorial class always hates them. I mean, it’s just the same dynamic.
Lex Fridman
One of the interesting things you’ve said as an aside in one of the many podcasts that I listened with you is you said that there were no isolated people, you know, people that are disconnected- … from the empire maybe who, for example, don’t know about the taxes or just don’t feel integrated into the system. I mean, that’s really interesting to me, that there’s so much connectivity, there’s so much cohesion- … as an entire peoples.
One of the interesting things you’ve said as an aside in one of the many podcasts that I listened with you is you said that there were no isolated people, you know, people that are disconnected- … from the empire maybe who, for example, don’t know about the taxes or just don’t feel integrated into the system. I mean, that’s really interesting to me, that there’s so much connectivity, there’s so much cohesion- … as an entire peoples.
Anthony Kaldellis
These people do not exist, these isolated peasants. This is a myth that I, one day I’m gonna write a chapter about this because it’s this idea that you occasionally encounter, well, actually quite often in the scholarship, that there are these sort of rural communities out there somewhere that don’t know what’s going on in Constantinople. They might not know, even know who the emperor is. They’re cut off. Maybe a tax official will show up every once in a while, maybe not, and they just live their lives on their own, unaffected by the, say, state, because the medieval state, we suspect, is, you know, always powerless and can’t, you know, affect people’s lives. There’s no proof for these communities at all.
These people do not exist, these isolated peasants. This is a myth that I, one day I’m gonna write a chapter about this because it’s this idea that you occasionally encounter, well, actually quite often in the scholarship, that there are these sort of rural communities out there somewhere that don’t know what’s going on in Constantinople. They might not know, even know who the emperor is. They’re cut off. Maybe a tax official will show up every once in a while, maybe not, and they just live their lives on their own, unaffected by the, say, state, because the medieval state, we suspect, is, you know, always powerless and can’t, you know, affect people’s lives. There’s no proof for these communities at all.
Anthony Kaldellis
At most, you might try to find some, like, actual hermits, like, actual Christian ascetic hermits who try to go out and find this situation, and sometimes they’re described in the text as, like, oh, so-and-so went so far out into the mountains that, like, not even the tax census people showed up there, which, which tells you how they think about what it means to be isolated, right? So this is not a… This is a state in which every arable piece of land has been censused for centuries. It’s not like you can hide a village, right? And the taxation process is not like, what, they visit once a year, give us some coin, and we’ll leave. It’s actually more like three times a year.
At most, you might try to find some, like, actual hermits, like, actual Christian ascetic hermits who try to go out and find this situation, and sometimes they’re described in the text as, like, oh, so-and-so went so far out into the mountains that, like, not even the tax census people showed up there, which, which tells you how they think about what it means to be isolated, right? So this is not a… This is a state in which every arable piece of land has been censused for centuries. It’s not like you can hide a village, right? And the taxation process is not like, what, they visit once a year, give us some coin, and we’ll leave. It’s actually more like three times a year.
Anthony Kaldellis
And the taxes are not just coin and maybe a payment in kind or something, but it’s, it’s a whole bunch of things like services and recruits and all… You’re right. And once you start adding all of these things up, it creates a very dense institutional matrix in which all communities are enmeshed.
And the taxes are not just coin and maybe a payment in kind or something, but it’s, it’s a whole bunch of things like services and recruits and all… You’re right. And once you start adding all of these things up, it creates a very dense institutional matrix in which all communities are enmeshed.
Anthony Kaldellis
They can’t get out of it. Also, they, they have a church, don’t they? And if they have a church, they have the calendar. And of course they have the calendar because… So, like, how do they organize time and space and boundaries and all of these things? No, this is all state institut- How do they pay for anything? They have coins. Coins are everywhere. So I think that these institutions structured the way that everyone, even in village communities, even in the most isolated ones, supposedly, how they thought about things like time and space and value and relations and power and kinship and so forth.
They can’t get out of it. Also, they, they have a church, don’t they? And if they have a church, they have the calendar. And of course they have the calendar because… So, like, how do they organize time and space and boundaries and all of these things? No, this is all state institut- How do they pay for anything? They have coins. Coins are everywhere. So I think that these institutions structured the way that everyone, even in village communities, even in the most isolated ones, supposedly, how they thought about things like time and space and value and relations and power and kinship and so forth.
Lex Fridman
So what you’re saying is taxation is the thing that brings the empire together.
So what you’re saying is taxation is the thing that brings the empire together.
Anthony Kaldellis
It is, principally, yes.
It is, principally, yes.
Lex Fridman
I mean, it’s- … it’s true, right? This is, like, this is how you know.
I mean, it’s- … it’s true, right? This is, like, this is how you know.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. But on top of that is layered things like the economy, coins, right? But also there’s the church.
Yeah. But on top of that is layered things like the economy, coins, right? But also there’s the church.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, and the church is important, just like you said. And there’s churches throughout the empire.
Yeah, and the church is important, just like you said. And there’s churches throughout the empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, and they have sermons, and they pray for the emperor after this service. No, there are no isolated communities.
Yes, and they have sermons, and they pray for the emperor after this service. No, there are no isolated communities.
Lex Fridman
So one of the things I briefly mentioned just would be nice to elaborate on is this term of monarchic republic. So we’ve been throwing around words like kingdom and republic and empire and monarchy. So what is the actual… What’s a good applicable term to what this thing is- … the East Roman Empire?
So one of the things I briefly mentioned just would be nice to elaborate on is this term of monarchic republic. So we’ve been throwing around words like kingdom and republic and empire and monarchy. So what is the actual… What’s a good applicable term to what this thing is- … the East Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s an excellent question, and I’m glad you flagged that because we call it conventionally Byzantine Empire, and it’s neither of those things really. We talked about Byzantine. Now, empire’s a bit of a problem because first of all there’s no term in Greek, in the Greek that they use at this period, that corresponds to our notion of empire. It’s not part of the official terms. It’s not even… They didn’t even have a term for it. You could have… There’s some terms that might mean something like state, arche maybe or kratos. But for the most part, it’s either basileia, which we might translate as monarchy, or politeia, which is polity. And politeia in Greek, polity, is a Greek translation of Latin res publica.
That’s an excellent question, and I’m glad you flagged that because we call it conventionally Byzantine Empire, and it’s neither of those things really. We talked about Byzantine. Now, empire’s a bit of a problem because first of all there’s no term in Greek, in the Greek that they use at this period, that corresponds to our notion of empire. It’s not part of the official terms. It’s not even… They didn’t even have a term for it. You could have… There’s some terms that might mean something like state, arche maybe or kratos. But for the most part, it’s either basileia, which we might translate as monarchy, or politeia, which is polity. And politeia in Greek, polity, is a Greek translation of Latin res publica.
Anthony Kaldellis
Res publica doesn’t mean republic the way we mean it for the Romans, like a non-monarchical regime, right? That’s how we mean, like, the American Republic or, you know. That’s a usage that came in later, like during the Enlightenment. In Latin, a res publica is the common affairs, the common interest of a people who are constituted as a political community, regardless of the type of regime that they have. Like even Cicero could imagine the Roman res publica governed by a king or by a senate or by a democracy. And they continue to use that term. We don’t use it according to Roman norms. We use it according to modern norms, the term republic. So they continue to call it a res publica or a polity under the emperors as well, right?
Res publica doesn’t mean republic the way we mean it for the Romans, like a non-monarchical regime, right? That’s how we mean, like, the American Republic or, you know. That’s a usage that came in later, like during the Enlightenment. In Latin, a res publica is the common affairs, the common interest of a people who are constituted as a political community, regardless of the type of regime that they have. Like even Cicero could imagine the Roman res publica governed by a king or by a senate or by a democracy. And they continue to use that term. We don’t use it according to Roman norms. We use it according to modern norms, the term republic. So they continue to call it a res publica or a polity under the emperors as well, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
And it was understood that the role of the emperor, whether he’s Caesar or basileus or whatever, whatever language, was to serve the polity. They keep saying this. So the terms that occur in the sources most commonly are basileia of the Romans, polity of the Romans, or Romania, which is the proper name of this state. Not empire.
And it was understood that the role of the emperor, whether he’s Caesar or basileus or whatever, whatever language, was to serve the polity. They keep saying this. So the terms that occur in the sources most commonly are basileia of the Romans, polity of the Romans, or Romania, which is the proper name of this state. Not empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
Now, empire. Empire in modern English commonly, an empire is a state that’s created when one group conquers a bunch of others and rules them. It could be an ethnic group. It could be an ethnoreligious group. It could be a political group, whatever. But there’s an act of conquest, and results in a state where one group is ruling over others. That’s not how Romania is actually constituted. We’ve talked about this. It’s, for the most part, all Roman citizens ruling themselves—like Roman subjects ruling themselves through their own government. So it’s not an empire strictly speaking. Now, occasionally, they will conquer other people, right? We talked about the warfare. Sometimes it’s not just defensive. Sometimes it’s offensive, right?
Now, empire. Empire in modern English commonly, an empire is a state that’s created when one group conquers a bunch of others and rules them. It could be an ethnic group. It could be an ethnoreligious group. It could be a political group, whatever. But there’s an act of conquest, and results in a state where one group is ruling over others. That’s not how Romania is actually constituted. We’ve talked about this. It’s, for the most part, all Roman citizens ruling themselves—like Roman subjects ruling themselves through their own government. So it’s not an empire strictly speaking. Now, occasionally, they will conquer other people, right? We talked about the warfare. Sometimes it’s not just defensive. Sometimes it’s offensive, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
In that case, you do establish an imperial relationship. Like we, the Romans, are ruling over this other group. Could be Slavs, it could be Bulgarians for a while, it could be whatever. Or even some Muslims in northern Syria for a while in the 11th century who—and you are not Romans. And that’s an imperial relationship. The question is, how many of these imperial relationships do you need to decide that, well, we’ve reached a tipping point, and now we’re just gonna call the whole thing an empire? Personally, I don’t think we ever reach that point. I mean, all states, even today, have like minorities. Some of them are part of that state because they were conquered once upon a time. But we don’t call those states empires necessarily. Even though…
In that case, you do establish an imperial relationship. Like we, the Romans, are ruling over this other group. Could be Slavs, it could be Bulgarians for a while, it could be whatever. Or even some Muslims in northern Syria for a while in the 11th century who—and you are not Romans. And that’s an imperial relationship. The question is, how many of these imperial relationships do you need to decide that, well, we’ve reached a tipping point, and now we’re just gonna call the whole thing an empire? Personally, I don’t think we ever reach that point. I mean, all states, even today, have like minorities. Some of them are part of that state because they were conquered once upon a time. But we don’t call those states empires necessarily. Even though…
Anthony Kaldellis
Like, look at the United Kingdom. Well, Wales was conquered. And, you know, the Welsh have their own identity, their own language. I don’t know that you would call that now an imperial relationship. Maybe. I don’t know.
Like, look at the United Kingdom. Well, Wales was conquered. And, you know, the Welsh have their own identity, their own language. I don’t know that you would call that now an imperial relationship. Maybe. I don’t know.
Lex Fridman
I think there’s also a synonymous use of the word empire that refers to the power that the state has- … in the global context geopolitically. So sometimes empire is used synonymously with superpower, meaning it’s one of the primary- … nations in the world, and it doesn’t necessarily have to do with the imperial nature of its history.
I think there’s also a synonymous use of the word empire that refers to the power that the state has- … in the global context geopolitically. So sometimes empire is used synonymously with superpower, meaning it’s one of the primary- … nations in the world, and it doesn’t necessarily have to do with the imperial nature of its history.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s true.
That’s true.
Lex Fridman
Hence the sort of American empire, US empire.
Hence the sort of American empire, US empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. Though you would never characterize the American political regime as an imperial one insofar as it does not have an emperor, for example. But anyway, yes. The problem is that in my field, we use the term empire conventionally, even when what you just described is clearly not happening, like even toward the end. It’s not a major world power. It, like, has a few islands in the Peloponnese, but we call it empire and the emperor, and it’s like, it’s completely ridiculous. There’s not even a term in their language for that sort of thing. Anyway, we can call things whatever we want, just so we understand what the reality is- … and what we are using those terms to mean. I think that’s the important thing. Yeah.
Yes. Though you would never characterize the American political regime as an imperial one insofar as it does not have an emperor, for example. But anyway, yes. The problem is that in my field, we use the term empire conventionally, even when what you just described is clearly not happening, like even toward the end. It’s not a major world power. It, like, has a few islands in the Peloponnese, but we call it empire and the emperor, and it’s like, it’s completely ridiculous. There’s not even a term in their language for that sort of thing. Anyway, we can call things whatever we want, just so we understand what the reality is- … and what we are using those terms to mean. I think that’s the important thing. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
So then let’s look at words which are both fascinating, monarchic republic.
So then let’s look at words which are both fascinating, monarchic republic.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
Why is that a good term for the East Roman Empire?
Why is that a good term for the East Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
Because they understood it very much to be a polity in the Roman sense of a res publica that was governed by a regime that was monarchical.
Because they understood it very much to be a polity in the Roman sense of a res publica that was governed by a regime that was monarchical.
Lex Fridman
So those two elements, there’s an emperor dude at the top, and it functioned politically like a republic.
So those two elements, there’s an emperor dude at the top, and it functioned politically like a republic.
Anthony Kaldellis
Also, the emperor was expected to be working for the republic. Like, they keep saying this. So, like, this was their conception. You don’t find it, for example, in other kinds of dynastic empires, the ones that don’t emerge from within the context of an ancient republic. So this is another reason why I find this civilization so fascinating, right? I mean, we mentioned the Greek and the Roman and the Christian elements that are kind of jostling together. This is fascinating to me in part because it’s this weird combination of monarchical power, like in terms of executive institutions- … and a republican kind of baseline ideology on which it operates. Yeah, and they, they sometimes come to a head.
Also, the emperor was expected to be working for the republic. Like, they keep saying this. So, like, this was their conception. You don’t find it, for example, in other kinds of dynastic empires, the ones that don’t emerge from within the context of an ancient republic. So this is another reason why I find this civilization so fascinating, right? I mean, we mentioned the Greek and the Roman and the Christian elements that are kind of jostling together. This is fascinating to me in part because it’s this weird combination of monarchical power, like in terms of executive institutions- … and a republican kind of baseline ideology on which it operates. Yeah, and they, they sometimes come to a head.
Lex Fridman
Is there at all a degree to which it’s a military dictatorship? Because especially when it’s the general in the emperor’s seat, yes, there’s a republic, yes, there’s political discussion, but the army has a lot of power. So to what degree is it a military dictatorship, as is sometimes talked about when you talk about the Roman Empire?
Is there at all a degree to which it’s a military dictatorship? Because especially when it’s the general in the emperor’s seat, yes, there’s a republic, yes, there’s political discussion, but the army has a lot of power. So to what degree is it a military dictatorship, as is sometimes talked about when you talk about the Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, so Augustus’ position, for example, and that of his successors is talked about as a military dictatorship. In other words, when push comes to shove- … and the basis of political power is the army, then I suppose it’s legitimate for historians to talk about a military dictatorship. But here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. Okay. The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control.
Yeah, so Augustus’ position, for example, and that of his successors is talked about as a military dictatorship. In other words, when push comes to shove- … and the basis of political power is the army, then I suppose it’s legitimate for historians to talk about a military dictatorship. But here’s why I don’t think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies and the armies themselves will often have a say in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. Okay. The reason why I don’t think it’s a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control.
Lex Fridman
Isn’t that strange to you? Because you see that being done through so much of human history.
Isn’t that strange to you? Because you see that being done through so much of human history.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lex Fridman
And the fact they don’t resort to that, I mean, they, for 1,000 years, that’s just not a thing.
And the fact they don’t resort to that, I mean, they, for 1,000 years, that’s just not a thing.
Anthony Kaldellis
As a way of keeping down the population, you just don’t see it. And part of the reason for that is I don’t think the population needs to be kept down. Like, this gets back to the consensus that we were talking about. The understanding is that the army is there to protect the Roman people. And is often recruited among them. And for most of the period that I study, lives among them. So when the emperors have to call up the army, they’re literally calling up soldiers from local villages.
As a way of keeping down the population, you just don’t see it. And part of the reason for that is I don’t think the population needs to be kept down. Like, this gets back to the consensus that we were talking about. The understanding is that the army is there to protect the Roman people. And is often recruited among them. And for most of the period that I study, lives among them. So when the emperors have to call up the army, they’re literally calling up soldiers from local villages.
Lex Fridman
It’s just incredible that this worked. I guess the civil war thing is, as a mechanism, is effective. ‘Cause you just, throughout human history, I mean, you look at even recent history, it’s just a very common thing for an authoritarian figure to use the army to suppress people.
It’s just incredible that this worked. I guess the civil war thing is, as a mechanism, is effective. ‘Cause you just, throughout human history, I mean, you look at even recent history, it’s just a very common thing for an authoritarian figure to use the army to suppress people.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, but isn’t that dangerous, though? Look at how many modern regimes tried to use their own armies against their people who are in a moment of rising up.
Yeah, but isn’t that dangerous, though? Look at how many modern regimes tried to use their own armies against their people who are in a moment of rising up.
Lex Fridman
It doesn’t last.
It doesn’t last.
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, it’s a risk. Like the Arab Spring. Especially in Egypt. And you could, you could tell for those three weeks that Mubarak was trying to decide whether he could actually count on the army to suppress the protesters or not, because you never know what they’re going to do if you ask them to fire on a civilian population. It can backfire on you badly. So I think that is a very dangerous force to use, and even in the context of modern regimes, can result in a regime change.
Well, it’s a risk. Like the Arab Spring. Especially in Egypt. And you could, you could tell for those three weeks that Mubarak was trying to decide whether he could actually count on the army to suppress the protesters or not, because you never know what they’re going to do if you ask them to fire on a civilian population. It can backfire on you badly. So I think that is a very dangerous force to use, and even in the context of modern regimes, can result in a regime change.
Lex Fridman
Absolutely, and there’s huge wisdom behind that, but, you know, leaders are not always wise, often not wise. And often maybe they start out wise, but power corrupts them over time, and so the fact that this does not happen just over and over and over and over- … in the East Roman Empire is, is, there’s just signal there that’s fascinating. And I mean, this goes to the book that you want to be working on— … About why the thing lasts. So…
Absolutely, and there’s huge wisdom behind that, but, you know, leaders are not always wise, often not wise. And often maybe they start out wise, but power corrupts them over time, and so the fact that this does not happen just over and over and over and over- … in the East Roman Empire is, is, there’s just signal there that’s fascinating. And I mean, this goes to the book that you want to be working on— … About why the thing lasts. So…
Anthony Kaldellis
There’s one emperor who does do that, and that’s Justinian.
There’s one emperor who does do that, and that’s Justinian.
Emperor Justinian and wars of conquest
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Yeah, he gets wild. So let’s talk about Justinian. We have to. We have to talk about Justinian. One of the most impactful Roman emperors in history started as a peasant, and rose in power to become emperor. He fought wars of conquest and was very consequential and impactful. So who was he?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, he gets wild. So let’s talk about Justinian. We have to. We have to talk about Justinian. One of the most impactful Roman emperors in history started as a peasant, and rose in power to become emperor. He fought wars of conquest and was very consequential and impactful. So who was he?
Anthony Kaldellis
All right. So Justinian was the emperor from 527 to 565, so quite a long reign. He was the nephew of the previous emperor, Justin I, who was an older man, ruled for just under a decade before Justinian. And both of them came from small, poor agricultural communities in the western Balkans.
All right. So Justinian was the emperor from 527 to 565, so quite a long reign. He was the nephew of the previous emperor, Justin I, who was an older man, ruled for just under a decade before Justinian. And both of them came from small, poor agricultural communities in the western Balkans.
Lex Fridman
We should say that Justin I ended up in your worst 10 emperors list.
We should say that Justin I ended up in your worst 10 emperors list.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, for one decision. He’s not the worst of the worst, but he made a very, very bad call when it came to church policy, tore the church apart. He shouldn’t have done that, in my view. But by the way, Justinian’s an immensely complicated figure. I found it impossible to decide, first of all, whether to put him on the best emperors or the worst emperors.
Yeah, for one decision. He’s not the worst of the worst, but he made a very, very bad call when it came to church policy, tore the church apart. He shouldn’t have done that, in my view. But by the way, Justinian’s an immensely complicated figure. I found it impossible to decide, first of all, whether to put him on the best emperors or the worst emperors.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, you—I mean, you’re being spicy, yeah.
Yeah, you—I mean, you’re being spicy, yeah.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, yeah. You have to be provocative about these things. And I thought omitting those two would be that, and it was. So, and here we are talking about it.
Yeah, yeah. You have to be provocative about these things. And I thought omitting those two would be that, and it was. So, and here we are talking about it.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The controversy.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The controversy.
Anthony Kaldellis
And through all the systems of social mobility that we’ve been talking about, Justin ended up emperor. Because of his military background, he just rose through the ranks. He was in the right place at the right time, became emperor, and then he gradually positioned his nephew, Justinian, whose background we do not know. Literally, we do not know anything that Justinian did before the age of something like 38 when he appears on the historical record. Same background. We know where he came from, but we don’t know what he was doing, although, like, was he an active soldier for decades? We don’t know. Probably not. He comes equipped with, like, a knowledge of something like Roman law and some Christian theology. That seems to be, like, what he knew.
And through all the systems of social mobility that we’ve been talking about, Justin ended up emperor. Because of his military background, he just rose through the ranks. He was in the right place at the right time, became emperor, and then he gradually positioned his nephew, Justinian, whose background we do not know. Literally, we do not know anything that Justinian did before the age of something like 38 when he appears on the historical record. Same background. We know where he came from, but we don’t know what he was doing, although, like, was he an active soldier for decades? We don’t know. Probably not. He comes equipped with, like, a knowledge of something like Roman law and some Christian theology. That seems to be, like, what he knew.
Anthony Kaldellis
And then Justin positions him to become his successor eventually, kind of reluctantly, but he does. Justinian also marries Theodora, who’s a woman who’s a former sex worker, which is a controversial choice. By this point, he’s a senator and is holding all of these top generalships, and then he becomes emperor.
And then Justin positions him to become his successor eventually, kind of reluctantly, but he does. Justinian also marries Theodora, who’s a woman who’s a former sex worker, which is a controversial choice. By this point, he’s a senator and is holding all of these top generalships, and then he becomes emperor.
Lex Fridman
She was also very influential, yes?
She was also very influential, yes?
Anthony Kaldellis
Very powerful, yes.
Very powerful, yes.
Lex Fridman
Very powerful.
Very powerful.
Anthony Kaldellis
Under his, yeah, during his reign. So the interesting thing about Justinian’s choice of, let’s say, associates, and that includes his wife, is that he seems to have just gone for people he thought were talented- … or that would be good for him as a ruler, rather than their social class or prestige. And so he accumulates around him quite a motley group of odd, sometimes like these kinds of disreputable people. But they did what he wanted them to, and they were—they—with lasting consequences for world history. So he has an eye for talent, and he doesn’t hesitate to pick people that others might look down on if he thought they could get the job done.
Under his, yeah, during his reign. So the interesting thing about Justinian’s choice of, let’s say, associates, and that includes his wife, is that he seems to have just gone for people he thought were talented- … or that would be good for him as a ruler, rather than their social class or prestige. And so he accumulates around him quite a motley group of odd, sometimes like these kinds of disreputable people. But they did what he wanted them to, and they were—they—with lasting consequences for world history. So he has an eye for talent, and he doesn’t hesitate to pick people that others might look down on if he thought they could get the job done.
Anthony Kaldellis
And these are some of the attributes that enable him to be as successful as he was. So that’s his background. He’s a Latin speaker primarily, but he knows Greek, too.
And these are some of the attributes that enable him to be as successful as he was. So that’s his background. He’s a Latin speaker primarily, but he knows Greek, too.
Lex Fridman
So here he is, and he, but he had, so like I mentioned, the wars of conquests. He also overhauled the Roman law.
So here he is, and he, but he had, so like I mentioned, the wars of conquests. He also overhauled the Roman law.
Anthony Kaldellis
He appoints a committee- … as one does— … to just take the whole of Roman law and condense it into what today we call the Corpus Juris Civilis, which is the body of Roman civil law. And this was a massive work of codification, and it is our main source for Roman law. Like overwhelmingly, what we call Roman law is what Justinian’s committee, and specifically this character called Tribonian, who was a very accomplished jurist, said it was.
He appoints a committee- … as one does— … to just take the whole of Roman law and condense it into what today we call the Corpus Juris Civilis, which is the body of Roman civil law. And this was a massive work of codification, and it is our main source for Roman law. Like overwhelmingly, what we call Roman law is what Justinian’s committee, and specifically this character called Tribonian, who was a very accomplished jurist, said it was.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. And that, did that persist through time? Did that last?
Mm-hmm. And that, did that persist through time? Did that last?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, still to this day. When you study Roman law, you’re studying Tribonian’s committee.
Yes, still to this day. When you study Roman law, you’re studying Tribonian’s committee.
Lex Fridman
And so in terms of our modern society, how much of impact did that have, this codification, this stable law that ran the East Roman Empire?
And so in terms of our modern society, how much of impact did that have, this codification, this stable law that ran the East Roman Empire?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, I mean, Roman legal concepts pervade everything from philosophy to political thought to actual Roman legal practice. I mean, depends on what country you’re in. So in many of the countries of Europe, it is the, you know, current law. And it is to some degree. I mean, I’m exaggerating. But legal scholars have to study Roman law. Even law students have to do that. Not so much in countries like the United States or Britain, which have the so-called common law system. But ideas in Roman law about, for example, property, right, ownership, things like this, these were hugely important in formulating ideas, for example, about sovereignty in political thought. Yeah, it’s one of the most important and influential acts of committee work ever done in Constantinople.
Well, I mean, Roman legal concepts pervade everything from philosophy to political thought to actual Roman legal practice. I mean, depends on what country you’re in. So in many of the countries of Europe, it is the, you know, current law. And it is to some degree. I mean, I’m exaggerating. But legal scholars have to study Roman law. Even law students have to do that. Not so much in countries like the United States or Britain, which have the so-called common law system. But ideas in Roman law about, for example, property, right, ownership, things like this, these were hugely important in formulating ideas, for example, about sovereignty in political thought. Yeah, it’s one of the most important and influential acts of committee work ever done in Constantinople.
Lex Fridman
So going to Perplexity here and looking at some aspects of the Justinian’s laws, they include a systematic structure of private law, persons, things, actions, strong protection of property and contracts, detailed family and inheritance rules, and a hierarchical status-based view of persons. These elements became the template for later civil law systems. And some overall structures, tripartite schema, law organized around personae, legal subjects, things, and procedural actions. Essentially who, what, and how of- … private law. And it goes on. I mean, a lot of the things I’m reading here really sounds like what we think of as law. Marriage.
So going to Perplexity here and looking at some aspects of the Justinian’s laws, they include a systematic structure of private law, persons, things, actions, strong protection of property and contracts, detailed family and inheritance rules, and a hierarchical status-based view of persons. These elements became the template for later civil law systems. And some overall structures, tripartite schema, law organized around personae, legal subjects, things, and procedural actions. Essentially who, what, and how of- … private law. And it goes on. I mean, a lot of the things I’m reading here really sounds like what we think of as law. Marriage.
Anthony Kaldellis
Look, most of it’s about property.
Look, most of it’s about property.
Lex Fridman
Marriage is a legal status. Lawful matrimony required conformity to rules about age, citizenship, and cognatum or prohibited degrees, incest rules, adoption relations, et cetera. All that kind of stuff.
Marriage is a legal status. Lawful matrimony required conformity to rules about age, citizenship, and cognatum or prohibited degrees, incest rules, adoption relations, et cetera. All that kind of stuff.
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yes. Who you can marry, who not.
Oh, yes. Who you can marry, who not.
Lex Fridman
What was their view of homosexuality?
What was their view of homosexuality?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, I mean, Justinian thought it caused earthquakes.
Well, I mean, Justinian thought it caused earthquakes.
Lex Fridman
Oh, did it?
Oh, did it?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Did it?
Did it?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Wow. That’s fascinating.
Wow. That’s fascinating.
Anthony Kaldellis
No, for him, no, for… So for Christian emperors or Christian authorities, this is a reprehensible, immoral act. Depending, it could be punished. Justinian did try to punish it pretty brutally. I mean, ultimately lethally. However, this gets really tricky here because what counts as a homosexual act is not clear to everybody, right? And in addition to which, there… This is a society that generally will not go after let’s say scandals or deviance or however you wanna call it, like systematically. This is not like some– There’s no inquisition.
No, for him, no, for… So for Christian emperors or Christian authorities, this is a reprehensible, immoral act. Depending, it could be punished. Justinian did try to punish it pretty brutally. I mean, ultimately lethally. However, this gets really tricky here because what counts as a homosexual act is not clear to everybody, right? And in addition to which, there… This is a society that generally will not go after let’s say scandals or deviance or however you wanna call it, like systematically. This is not like some– There’s no inquisition.
Anthony Kaldellis
There’s no social police. If there’s some sort of scandal and this comes out, then it’s a problem. But they’re not actively going to track down, hunt down, monitor, survey, interrogate people about their sex lives. I mean, it is in a way, despite having views that we may not agree with about sexuality, it was generally humane in the way of just kind of leaving people alone.
There’s no social police. If there’s some sort of scandal and this comes out, then it’s a problem. But they’re not actively going to track down, hunt down, monitor, survey, interrogate people about their sex lives. I mean, it is in a way, despite having views that we may not agree with about sexuality, it was generally humane in the way of just kind of leaving people alone.
Lex Fridman
I mean, that said, there’s some… I’m just on Perplexity, looked up Justinian Roman law view of sexuality. They’re pretty harsh on, like, adultery and just getting freaky with it.
I mean, that said, there’s some… I’m just on Perplexity, looked up Justinian Roman law view of sexuality. They’re pretty harsh on, like, adultery and just getting freaky with it.
Anthony Kaldellis
No, Justinian was more zealous in this matter, definitely.
No, Justinian was more zealous in this matter, definitely.
Lex Fridman
Even though he married a sex worker.
Even though he married a sex worker.
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, sex work wasn’t illegal.
Well, sex work wasn’t illegal.
Lex Fridman
Right, but it’s a bit spicy.
Right, but it’s a bit spicy.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. And in fact, it was illegal for a senator to marry someone from such a disreputable profession. And he got his uncle to pass a law changing that rule … so that he could.
Yes. And in fact, it was illegal for a senator to marry someone from such a disreputable profession. And he got his uncle to pass a law changing that rule … so that he could.
Lex Fridman
Well. Love knows no bounds.
Well. Love knows no bounds.
Anthony Kaldellis
Actually, Justinian kind of says that in one of his laws.
Actually, Justinian kind of says that in one of his laws.
Lex Fridman
Oh, wow.
Oh, wow.
Anthony Kaldellis
No, he clearly loved her. There’s no question.
No, he clearly loved her. There’s no question.
Lex Fridman
This is actual love. I mean, this, you have to like this guy. Starts as a peasant, surrounded himself by all kinds of weirdos just because they were good at what they did, and it doesn’t really matter, class or not.
This is actual love. I mean, this, you have to like this guy. Starts as a peasant, surrounded himself by all kinds of weirdos just because they were good at what they did, and it doesn’t really matter, class or not.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, but there’s a lot to be said against him, too. I like so much.
Yes, but there’s a lot to be said against him, too. I like so much.
Lex Fridman
Let’s get into it. So he did launch wars of conquest. What was his view of war and conquest, and maybe what are the things we should mention in terms of expansionary wars?
Let’s get into it. So he did launch wars of conquest. What was his view of war and conquest, and maybe what are the things we should mention in terms of expansionary wars?
Anthony Kaldellis
He thought he was authorized by God to reconquer the lost provinces of the Western Roman Empire, and when he did so, that was proof that God favored him. And he was generally opportunistic about it and for the most part, kind of successful in that he intervened in the most critical moments of the histories of these barbarian, you know, kingdoms in the West, and exploited their weaknesses and took them over. Now, in the process, many of these provinces were ravaged by war—Italy for decades. He overstretched his resources, leaving his successors with a much more dangerous situation to defend. And he disbanded certain armies that were meant to protect Constantinople, sent them to Italy, for example. This weakened the home front.
He thought he was authorized by God to reconquer the lost provinces of the Western Roman Empire, and when he did so, that was proof that God favored him. And he was generally opportunistic about it and for the most part, kind of successful in that he intervened in the most critical moments of the histories of these barbarian, you know, kingdoms in the West, and exploited their weaknesses and took them over. Now, in the process, many of these provinces were ravaged by war—Italy for decades. He overstretched his resources, leaving his successors with a much more dangerous situation to defend. And he disbanded certain armies that were meant to protect Constantinople, sent them to Italy, for example. This weakened the home front.
Anthony Kaldellis
So he left a very difficult legacy for his successors in that way. Plus, some of the provinces that he conquered were so—like Italy, I don’t think it could even pay for itself after a certain point. So I’m not sure that some of those decisions were the best ones. North Africa, yeah, probably that paid off. Italy and southern Spain, not so sure.
So he left a very difficult legacy for his successors in that way. Plus, some of the provinces that he conquered were so—like Italy, I don’t think it could even pay for itself after a certain point. So I’m not sure that some of those decisions were the best ones. North Africa, yeah, probably that paid off. Italy and southern Spain, not so sure.
Lex Fridman
So that’s one of the big criticisms is even though there was conquest, it was overextended, and- … those lands were not economically stable.
So that’s one of the big criticisms is even though there was conquest, it was overextended, and- … those lands were not economically stable.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, and-
Yeah, and-
Lex Fridman
Broke. AKA.
Broke. AKA.
Anthony Kaldellis
Conquest is not just good, you know, in itself. I mean, this is… I know that some rulers in history are called the Great simply because they conquered something. But that’s, no, that’s not enough. I mean, I know that rulers do this, but if we’re to compare them to each other, we should at least expect that they have a plan or that it works out well in the end, let’s say, and I don’t think that many of these did.
Conquest is not just good, you know, in itself. I mean, this is… I know that some rulers in history are called the Great simply because they conquered something. But that’s, no, that’s not enough. I mean, I know that rulers do this, but if we’re to compare them to each other, we should at least expect that they have a plan or that it works out well in the end, let’s say, and I don’t think that many of these did.
Lex Fridman
I should say that as far as historians go, I think you don’t give too many points on the conquest front.
I should say that as far as historians go, I think you don’t give too many points on the conquest front.
Anthony Kaldellis
Personally, I?
Personally, I?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Anthony Kaldellis
No, I don’t.
No, I don’t.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, so your value comes from is a leader implementing lasting change, like a stable-
Yeah, so your value comes from is a leader implementing lasting change, like a stable-
Anthony Kaldellis
Was he good for his subjects? Were they living better because of him than otherwise?
Was he good for his subjects? Were they living better because of him than otherwise?
Lex Fridman
And also, like, longer, like, the long-term nature of it, not just- … not just, like, a temporary thing.
And also, like, longer, like, the long-term nature of it, not just- … not just, like, a temporary thing.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right. Are you strengthening institutions that benefit your subjects? That. And some he did, some not. So look, in order to send those armies west to make the conquests, he stripped the east of armies, so the Persians could just march in and, like, destroyed Antioch. Like, that’s a major strategic failure, and I don’t think you get a pass for conquering North Africa by surrendering Syria.
Right. Are you strengthening institutions that benefit your subjects? That. And some he did, some not. So look, in order to send those armies west to make the conquests, he stripped the east of armies, so the Persians could just march in and, like, destroyed Antioch. Like, that’s a major strategic failure, and I don’t think you get a pass for conquering North Africa by surrendering Syria.
Lex Fridman
He did rebuild Constantinople and reconstructed the Hagia Sophia.
He did rebuild Constantinople and reconstructed the Hagia Sophia.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, after he and his soldiers set fire to it. Yes. In the Nika insurrection. So this is when the people of the capital rise up against him, and there’s, like, about 10 days of street fighting, and he brings in some armies, and eventually he orders his armies to slaughter the protesters, leaving more than 30,000 dead. Like, this is an enormous number. And a lot of Constantinople burned in the process, and yeah, he rebuilt it. So his building is considered one of his great points. He built Hagia Sophia, for example, which is a magnificent church, like, hands down. It’s just a fascinating monument to study, too. And yeah, that was, that was him, too.
Yes, after he and his soldiers set fire to it. Yes. In the Nika insurrection. So this is when the people of the capital rise up against him, and there’s, like, about 10 days of street fighting, and he brings in some armies, and eventually he orders his armies to slaughter the protesters, leaving more than 30,000 dead. Like, this is an enormous number. And a lot of Constantinople burned in the process, and yeah, he rebuilt it. So his building is considered one of his great points. He built Hagia Sophia, for example, which is a magnificent church, like, hands down. It’s just a fascinating monument to study, too. And yeah, that was, that was him, too.
Anthony Kaldellis
I’m trying to give you a sense here that the good and the bad are mixed in such equal measure that, like Buridan’s ass, I can’t decide which- … which bale of hay to put him on.
I’m trying to give you a sense here that the good and the bad are mixed in such equal measure that, like Buridan’s ass, I can’t decide which- … which bale of hay to put him on.
Lex Fridman
But there’s a grand scale to the good and the bad.
But there’s a grand scale to the good and the bad.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman
For many people, that’s what makes for a, uh-
For many people, that’s what makes for a, uh-
Anthony Kaldellis
Exactly
Exactly
Lex Fridman
… top 10 emperor list. What about the plague?
… top 10 emperor list. What about the plague?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, he wasn’t responsible for that at least.
Well, he wasn’t responsible for that at least.
Lex Fridman
The plague of Justinian- … AKA 541 AD. So some historians claim that it killed half the population and ruined the empire. You are skeptical on this view.
The plague of Justinian- … AKA 541 AD. So some historians claim that it killed half the population and ruined the empire. You are skeptical on this view.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. So this is a bubonic plague. Which lasts more or less for two centuries. It comes and it goes, and it’s kind of endemic to large parts of the world. 541 is when it starts to break out in the empire, in Constantinople and other cities, and it spreads. There’s been a lot of debate about this recently because now we’ve actually isolated the pathogen. It’s Yersinia pestis. Like, we know this. Just as of, like, a generation ago, this was just guesswork. But now there’s all of this new, like, laboratory science work that’s come in to fill in some of the gaps in history.
Yes. So this is a bubonic plague. Which lasts more or less for two centuries. It comes and it goes, and it’s kind of endemic to large parts of the world. 541 is when it starts to break out in the empire, in Constantinople and other cities, and it spreads. There’s been a lot of debate about this recently because now we’ve actually isolated the pathogen. It’s Yersinia pestis. Like, we know this. Just as of, like, a generation ago, this was just guesswork. But now there’s all of this new, like, laboratory science work that’s come in to fill in some of the gaps in history.
Lex Fridman
That’s so cool.
That’s so cool.
Anthony Kaldellis
It is. It is. There are lots of discussions about that. And so the study of diseases and virology have just become much more important lately. It still doesn’t tell you, however, like mortality rates and historical impact. Like, for that, you still need standard old-fashioned non-laboratory historical work. And there’s a debate about the impact of this plague. It’s ongoing, I should say that. And some scholars argue for a kind of maximalist position of 50%. I think that would have brought this society to a halt. Just logistically speaking. And so I believe in a much more moderate impact.
It is. It is. There are lots of discussions about that. And so the study of diseases and virology have just become much more important lately. It still doesn’t tell you, however, like mortality rates and historical impact. Like, for that, you still need standard old-fashioned non-laboratory historical work. And there’s a debate about the impact of this plague. It’s ongoing, I should say that. And some scholars argue for a kind of maximalist position of 50%. I think that would have brought this society to a halt. Just logistically speaking. And so I believe in a much more moderate impact.
Lex Fridman
And the real impact is what? The tax base shrinks?
And the real impact is what? The tax base shrinks?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh. Oh, yeah. The tax base would shrink instantly. You wouldn’t be able to recruit armies. You know, there would be massive social dislocation. Like what happens in the Black Death in Europe in the 14th century. Like, we have very good records for what happened to those societies, and basically everything that they were doing stopped for a few years until they sort of tried to put things back together again. This does not happen in the 6th century. In fact, Justinian is at that time waging war on something like four or five different fronts. If you read the narratives of those wars, there’s no pause. There’s no impact from the plague on the conduct of those wars. They just continue on.
Oh. Oh, yeah. The tax base would shrink instantly. You wouldn’t be able to recruit armies. You know, there would be massive social dislocation. Like what happens in the Black Death in Europe in the 14th century. Like, we have very good records for what happened to those societies, and basically everything that they were doing stopped for a few years until they sort of tried to put things back together again. This does not happen in the 6th century. In fact, Justinian is at that time waging war on something like four or five different fronts. If you read the narratives of those wars, there’s no pause. There’s no impact from the plague on the conduct of those wars. They just continue on.
Anthony Kaldellis
Taxation continues. The courts continue. Like, you just don’t see it in the narrative, and so I think that there’s a much less impact than, certainly than 50%, yeah.
Taxation continues. The courts continue. Like, you just don’t see it in the narrative, and so I think that there’s a much less impact than, certainly than 50%, yeah.
Lex Fridman
So this sets the stage for a tumultuous 7th century.
So this sets the stage for a tumultuous 7th century.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, you could call it that. Yes.
Yeah, you could call it that. Yes.
Lex Fridman
So what is the legacy of Justinian in terms of how he left the empire leading into the 7th century?
So what is the legacy of Justinian in terms of how he left the empire leading into the 7th century?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, he left it overextended, so his successors had to deal with many more problems along many more fronts with fewer military forces concentrated in what we might call the homeland of the Eastern Roman Empire. And so that made the center vulnerable too, and so you start to get raids into the Balkans and, you know, it enters a kind of vicious cycle again. Now, not all of this was Justinian’s fault. I mean, the plague definitely had some impact. But I wouldn’t blame everything on his successors, as is sometimes done, like they mishandled the situation. He… Yeah, he left them a very difficult situation to deal with.
Well, he left it overextended, so his successors had to deal with many more problems along many more fronts with fewer military forces concentrated in what we might call the homeland of the Eastern Roman Empire. And so that made the center vulnerable too, and so you start to get raids into the Balkans and, you know, it enters a kind of vicious cycle again. Now, not all of this was Justinian’s fault. I mean, the plague definitely had some impact. But I wouldn’t blame everything on his successors, as is sometimes done, like they mishandled the situation. He… Yeah, he left them a very difficult situation to deal with.
The Arab conquests
Lex Fridman
So speaking of which, let’s talk about Heraclius. He didn’t make, he didn’t make your list either, which is a shocker for a lot of people. Perhaps you can describe the nuance of that, but he took over the Roman Empire on the verge of extinction. Persians at the gates, treasury empty. So maybe first tell the full saga of the Roman-Persian War that threatened the empire’s existence.
So speaking of which, let’s talk about Heraclius. He didn’t make, he didn’t make your list either, which is a shocker for a lot of people. Perhaps you can describe the nuance of that, but he took over the Roman Empire on the verge of extinction. Persians at the gates, treasury empty. So maybe first tell the full saga of the Roman-Persian War that threatened the empire’s existence.
Anthony Kaldellis
Sure. Well, he wasn’t entirely, you know, free of blame for the situation that he inherited. He was, he was in part responsible for it. So he doesn’t get a pass on that. So Heraclius is basically a rebel and a usurper. So for various reasons Rome and Persia are at war starting around 602. And the Persian shah at this time, Khosrow II, has basically decided on a policy of conquest, not just raiding. Like, I’m gonna go in and take your people, some cattle, and some statues, and take them to, you know, Mesopotamia. He starts what… I mean, I think there’s some evolution in his thinking and his planning about this, but pretty soon during the 600 and the aughts, he realizes that there’s potential for actual permanent territorial gain here, and his armies start moving in.
Sure. Well, he wasn’t entirely, you know, free of blame for the situation that he inherited. He was, he was in part responsible for it. So he doesn’t get a pass on that. So Heraclius is basically a rebel and a usurper. So for various reasons Rome and Persia are at war starting around 602. And the Persian shah at this time, Khosrow II, has basically decided on a policy of conquest, not just raiding. Like, I’m gonna go in and take your people, some cattle, and some statues, and take them to, you know, Mesopotamia. He starts what… I mean, I think there’s some evolution in his thinking and his planning about this, but pretty soon during the 600 and the aughts, he realizes that there’s potential for actual permanent territorial gain here, and his armies start moving in.
Anthony Kaldellis
And the Roman Emperor is this guy called Phocas, who is himself a usurper, a military background, and he now faces a rebellion by Heraclius, whose base is in North Africa at this time, like around Carthage. And they have a civil war for three years, 608 to 610.
And the Roman Emperor is this guy called Phocas, who is himself a usurper, a military background, and he now faces a rebellion by Heraclius, whose base is in North Africa at this time, like around Carthage. And they have a civil war for three years, 608 to 610.
Anthony Kaldellis
That civil war that Heraclius initiates causes a diversion of Roman armies to the civil war away from the Persian front. So it’s a massive gift to the Persians. Plus, a lot of the fighting takes place in Egypt, and Egypt was a province that had up until that point not really been harmed by war. Now it is, right? So Heraclius’s forces, he’s not in Egypt, but his backers are fighting a civil war in Egypt, so that province is now, you know, ravaged in part. The Persians make tremendous gains in the east. Heraclius heads straight for Constantinople during all of this, and to make a long story short, he manages to take Constantinople, execute Phocas, and become emperor, right? But now he’s facing a problem that’s much worse than it was before he started the rebellion.
That civil war that Heraclius initiates causes a diversion of Roman armies to the civil war away from the Persian front. So it’s a massive gift to the Persians. Plus, a lot of the fighting takes place in Egypt, and Egypt was a province that had up until that point not really been harmed by war. Now it is, right? So Heraclius’s forces, he’s not in Egypt, but his backers are fighting a civil war in Egypt, so that province is now, you know, ravaged in part. The Persians make tremendous gains in the east. Heraclius heads straight for Constantinople during all of this, and to make a long story short, he manages to take Constantinople, execute Phocas, and become emperor, right? But now he’s facing a problem that’s much worse than it was before he started the rebellion.
Anthony Kaldellis
The reason why Heraclius is sort of lionized in some… Well, actually, there’s a very long tradition of doing this, which goes back to the Middle Ages. In the Western Middle Ages, Heraclius was sometimes considered, like, the first crusader.
The reason why Heraclius is sort of lionized in some… Well, actually, there’s a very long tradition of doing this, which goes back to the Middle Ages. In the Western Middle Ages, Heraclius was sometimes considered, like, the first crusader.
Lex Fridman
Oh, interesting.
Oh, interesting.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, yeah. So there’s all this medieval literature about Heraclius as being a proto-crusader type and all that for reconquering, like, Jerusalem from the Persians and restoring the True Cross and all that. So he had this kind of aura, and I think his modern admirers are basically just continuing… I mean, they might not know it, but they’re kind of continuing this very, very long tradition of treating Heraclius as this heroic holy warrior. Anyway, from my standpoint, it’s a complete wash. In other words, yes, he does beat the Persians and he gets, like, in my view, full credit for that, though he did it with, I think, the help of some Turkish allies from Central Asia. These were, I think, the major component of his success at the very end.
Yeah, yeah. So there’s all this medieval literature about Heraclius as being a proto-crusader type and all that for reconquering, like, Jerusalem from the Persians and restoring the True Cross and all that. So he had this kind of aura, and I think his modern admirers are basically just continuing… I mean, they might not know it, but they’re kind of continuing this very, very long tradition of treating Heraclius as this heroic holy warrior. Anyway, from my standpoint, it’s a complete wash. In other words, yes, he does beat the Persians and he gets, like, in my view, full credit for that, though he did it with, I think, the help of some Turkish allies from Central Asia. These were, I think, the major component of his success at the very end.
Anthony Kaldellis
But no, no. So he held the Persians off and ultimately defeated them, yes. And then he loses everything to the Arabs.
But no, no. So he held the Persians off and ultimately defeated them, yes. And then he loses everything to the Arabs.
Lex Fridman
So the Arab conquests are 630s and 640s, but the Persian War is 602 to 628.
So the Arab conquests are 630s and 640s, but the Persian War is 602 to 628.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
So what can be said about this what seems to be a pretty costly war, I guess, for the Persians?
So what can be said about this what seems to be a pretty costly war, I guess, for the Persians?
Anthony Kaldellis
So the war was costly initially only for the Romans. The eastern provinces were conquered by Persia. That means Syria, Palestine, Egypt. So that’s a loss. You lose all that revenue, and then they start raiding into Asia Minor.
So the war was costly initially only for the Romans. The eastern provinces were conquered by Persia. That means Syria, Palestine, Egypt. So that’s a loss. You lose all that revenue, and then they start raiding into Asia Minor.
Lex Fridman
Yes.
Yes.
Anthony Kaldellis
By the way, this is exactly what the Arabs would do, you know, just a couple decades later. They would conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and they would start raiding into Asia Minor. So almost like this phase of East Roman history begins already during the Persian invasion. It’s just a kind of a prelude. It was, in fact, the Arabs that would do that for the next few centuries. So Heraclius, it takes him a very long time to get organized, in fact, something like 15 years, and it’s not entirely clear, like, what he’s doing all this time. But he ultimately manages to defeat the Persians by waging these really spectacular, weird campaigns in the East. He decides to strike into the Persian heartland, as it were. Well, first in the Caucasus region, and then he goes into Mesopotamia.
By the way, this is exactly what the Arabs would do, you know, just a couple decades later. They would conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and they would start raiding into Asia Minor. So almost like this phase of East Roman history begins already during the Persian invasion. It’s just a kind of a prelude. It was, in fact, the Arabs that would do that for the next few centuries. So Heraclius, it takes him a very long time to get organized, in fact, something like 15 years, and it’s not entirely clear, like, what he’s doing all this time. But he ultimately manages to defeat the Persians by waging these really spectacular, weird campaigns in the East. He decides to strike into the Persian heartland, as it were. Well, first in the Caucasus region, and then he goes into Mesopotamia.
Anthony Kaldellis
So not to try to defeat their armies that are rampaging around Asia Minor or even besieging his capital in 626. The Persians and the Avars, this people from… This nomadic warrior group that settled in roughly modern Hungary, they’re besieging Constantinople. Heraclius doesn’t even go. And he’s just kind of preparing his armies in the East, and he strikes the Persians right where it hurts, and this now begins to degrade the Persian heartland and their infrastructure because remember, both of these empires are gonna be in shambles by the time the Arabs come along, and this is what enables the Arabs to conquer them so quickly. I mean, they’ve destroyed each other in these wars.
So not to try to defeat their armies that are rampaging around Asia Minor or even besieging his capital in 626. The Persians and the Avars, this people from… This nomadic warrior group that settled in roughly modern Hungary, they’re besieging Constantinople. Heraclius doesn’t even go. And he’s just kind of preparing his armies in the East, and he strikes the Persians right where it hurts, and this now begins to degrade the Persian heartland and their infrastructure because remember, both of these empires are gonna be in shambles by the time the Arabs come along, and this is what enables the Arabs to conquer them so quickly. I mean, they’ve destroyed each other in these wars.
Anthony Kaldellis
And eventually Heraclius calls in his Turkish allies, and they go on a field trip through Mesopotamia, and this causes a coup in Persia, and Khosrow is killed.
And eventually Heraclius calls in his Turkish allies, and they go on a field trip through Mesopotamia, and this causes a coup in Persia, and Khosrow is killed.
Lex Fridman
Is there something to be said, a little bit of texture to the motivations of the different empires and the different groups involved? So the East Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and the Islamic Caliphates, were they after conquering? Were they after expansion? Were they after more like raiding for financial benefits? What was the motivation?
Is there something to be said, a little bit of texture to the motivations of the different empires and the different groups involved? So the East Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and the Islamic Caliphates, were they after conquering? Were they after expansion? Were they after more like raiding for financial benefits? What was the motivation?
Anthony Kaldellis
So in the past, the Persian Shahs basically were interested in raiding, and they also had an interest in manpower. So all of those Mesopotamian agricultural estates won’t till themselves. So they were kind of insatiable for agricultural workforces and specialized craftsmen and people like that. So they would go into the empire and get them. But in this phase, it seems that Khosrow II is taking really to heart the idea that the Persian Empire should really extend to the Mediterranean as it did in, like, Achaemenid times, right, in, in ancient history, the empire that Alexander conquered.
So in the past, the Persian Shahs basically were interested in raiding, and they also had an interest in manpower. So all of those Mesopotamian agricultural estates won’t till themselves. So they were kind of insatiable for agricultural workforces and specialized craftsmen and people like that. So they would go into the empire and get them. But in this phase, it seems that Khosrow II is taking really to heart the idea that the Persian Empire should really extend to the Mediterranean as it did in, like, Achaemenid times, right, in, in ancient history, the empire that Alexander conquered.
Anthony Kaldellis
So it seems that the, the Sassanians, this is this dynasty, this Iranian dynasty that’s ruling the Persian Empire, of course, they were aware of the Achaemenids, but sometimes they would have these claims to reviving the former greatness of the Iranian Empire. So, you know, bathing in the Mediterranean Sea is something that many Near Eastern monarchs, you know, they, they did this as a sign of, of success. Anyway, for the Romans, it was sheer survival, just desperate survival, ’cause they knew that this was a war that could end the Roman state.
So it seems that the, the Sassanians, this is this dynasty, this Iranian dynasty that’s ruling the Persian Empire, of course, they were aware of the Achaemenids, but sometimes they would have these claims to reviving the former greatness of the Iranian Empire. So, you know, bathing in the Mediterranean Sea is something that many Near Eastern monarchs, you know, they, they did this as a sign of, of success. Anyway, for the Romans, it was sheer survival, just desperate survival, ’cause they knew that this was a war that could end the Roman state.
Lex Fridman
I mean, they’re already on the verge of being ended. And here, they’re defensive wars of survival.
I mean, they’re already on the verge of being ended. And here, they’re defensive wars of survival.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. So it’s pretty clear that initially the, the goal of Arab Muslim warfare is to unify Arabia. That is, that all Arabs should be Muslim and should be unified into this religious kind of state, whatever, that the prophet and his successors had created. Now, then they start striking out into Rome and into Iran. It’s not entirely clear, like, why. Now, there are obvious reasons. Like, I mean, we don’t– It’s not, like, a huge historical mystery why a, you know, recently formed successful army will decide to take on two very weak opponents– … who are on their doorstep. Like– … this is not, you know, complicated.
Yeah. So it’s pretty clear that initially the, the goal of Arab Muslim warfare is to unify Arabia. That is, that all Arabs should be Muslim and should be unified into this religious kind of state, whatever, that the prophet and his successors had created. Now, then they start striking out into Rome and into Iran. It’s not entirely clear, like, why. Now, there are obvious reasons. Like, I mean, we don’t– It’s not, like, a huge historical mystery why a, you know, recently formed successful army will decide to take on two very weak opponents– … who are on their doorstep. Like– … this is not, you know, complicated.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, they’re pretty effective at military– … conquest.
Yeah, they’re pretty effective at military– … conquest.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. But they’re striking both empires from a direction that those empires had never prepared to defend from. Arabia was just not, “Oh, you might get some occasional raiders, but you’re never gonna get an army that’s coming out that can potentially conquer you.” So the defensive orientations are all wrong. And these two empires have gone through this massive war that has destabilized them. They’re low on manpower, low on resources. The outcome is almost kind of inevitable. I don’t think there’s a great mystery.
Yeah. But they’re striking both empires from a direction that those empires had never prepared to defend from. Arabia was just not, “Oh, you might get some occasional raiders, but you’re never gonna get an army that’s coming out that can potentially conquer you.” So the defensive orientations are all wrong. And these two empires have gone through this massive war that has destabilized them. They’re low on manpower, low on resources. The outcome is almost kind of inevitable. I don’t think there’s a great mystery.
Lex Fridman
And the effect of that is they stripped away the richest provinces of the Roman Empire.
And the effect of that is they stripped away the richest provinces of the Roman Empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, Egypt in particular. That means now you can’t feed Constantinople. Like we talked about the grain from Egypt, right, that came to Constantinople. You don’t have that now. And so that means that the population of Constantinople will decline dramatically over the next few decades.
Yes, Egypt in particular. That means now you can’t feed Constantinople. Like we talked about the grain from Egypt, right, that came to Constantinople. You don’t have that now. And so that means that the population of Constantinople will decline dramatically over the next few decades.
Lex Fridman
So how does the empire rebuild itself, you know, restabilize? Because it’s not, it doesn’t collapse there, right?
So how does the empire rebuild itself, you know, restabilize? Because it’s not, it doesn’t collapse there, right?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
It stays, it survives. There’s interesting low points for the empire where it still survives.
It stays, it survives. There’s interesting low points for the empire where it still survives.
Anthony Kaldellis
This is one of them.
This is one of them.
Lex Fridman
And that is as interesting as the survival at the top, and the flourishing survival at the bottom is also super interesting. So how do– What happens? How does it kind of stabilize?
And that is as interesting as the survival at the top, and the flourishing survival at the bottom is also super interesting. So how do– What happens? How does it kind of stabilize?
Anthony Kaldellis
Very slowly. This is a painful process, and it takes them centuries, you could say. First you gotta stop the bleeding, just try to hold the line. It takes them decades to just to hold a line. Like, they get pummeled by the Arabs for decades in the seventh century until finally by the 660s, 670, they finally begin to beat them. Beat them on land and hold the line on the sea. And so we now have an investment in fleets. Eventually, you get the Greek fire, which is the flamethrowers. And when the Arabs try to take Constantinople, these attempts are defeated, like, twice, and that ensures the survival of the Roman state in some form.
Very slowly. This is a painful process, and it takes them centuries, you could say. First you gotta stop the bleeding, just try to hold the line. It takes them decades to just to hold a line. Like, they get pummeled by the Arabs for decades in the seventh century until finally by the 660s, 670, they finally begin to beat them. Beat them on land and hold the line on the sea. And so we now have an investment in fleets. Eventually, you get the Greek fire, which is the flamethrowers. And when the Arabs try to take Constantinople, these attempts are defeated, like, twice, and that ensures the survival of the Roman state in some form.
Lex Fridman
How were the flamethrowers used?
How were the flamethrowers used?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, this is an interesting question. We’re still kind of debating that.
Yes, this is an interesting question. We’re still kind of debating that.
Lex Fridman
Oh, it’s not fully understood.
Oh, it’s not fully understood.
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, it’s a state secret. They didn’t want this getting out, so they kept it pretty well. The fact that we’re debating it will tell you that they were pretty good at keeping secrets. So possibly through a, a pressure valve. Right? So you have this flammable compound whose preparation and components is also a state secret. So there’s specialized– There’s a corps of engineers that prepares this and deploys it. And it’s possibly through a heated pressurized container with a spigot, let’s say, that unleashes this thing through a nozzle, and it’s lit and basically spews flaming napalm on other ships, and it will continue to burn even when it’s on the water.
Well, it’s a state secret. They didn’t want this getting out, so they kept it pretty well. The fact that we’re debating it will tell you that they were pretty good at keeping secrets. So possibly through a, a pressure valve. Right? So you have this flammable compound whose preparation and components is also a state secret. So there’s specialized– There’s a corps of engineers that prepares this and deploys it. And it’s possibly through a heated pressurized container with a spigot, let’s say, that unleashes this thing through a nozzle, and it’s lit and basically spews flaming napalm on other ships, and it will continue to burn even when it’s on the water.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? On the top. So, like, you can’t, like, swim away or anything. So it’s this very, very destructive weapon. Terrifying. They used it against Vikings too. This is much later. So once the Vikings show up- … Like, when they would raid attacked Constantinople in the 940s, then again in the 1040s- … Yeah, the Romans used Greek fire fleets to just incinerate the… And that’ll teach Vikings. Yes. If you’re in that situation, you’d rather serve under the emperors than attack them.
Right? On the top. So, like, you can’t, like, swim away or anything. So it’s this very, very destructive weapon. Terrifying. They used it against Vikings too. This is much later. So once the Vikings show up- … Like, when they would raid attacked Constantinople in the 940s, then again in the 1040s- … Yeah, the Romans used Greek fire fleets to just incinerate the… And that’ll teach Vikings. Yes. If you’re in that situation, you’d rather serve under the emperors than attack them.
Lex Fridman
And so this is, this is a kind of nuclear weapon level state secret.
And so this is, this is a kind of nuclear weapon level state secret.
Anthony Kaldellis
They even had it in hand grenade form.
They even had it in hand grenade form.
Lex Fridman
This is a real thing?
This is a real thing?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
Lex Fridman
Hand grenade form.
Hand grenade form.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. So it’s a, it’s like a clay container with the compound, and it has like some sort of fuse that you light on the outside and you throw it. Now, you throw it… You can throw it against people, but it’s not gonna be that effective. Maybe you burn a person, whatever. You just wasted a hand grenade for, you know, one person. It’s most effective against things like, siege engines. So you, you throw that on a wooden frame and, you know, yeah.
Yes. So it’s a, it’s like a clay container with the compound, and it has like some sort of fuse that you light on the outside and you throw it. Now, you throw it… You can throw it against people, but it’s not gonna be that effective. Maybe you burn a person, whatever. You just wasted a hand grenade for, you know, one person. It’s most effective against things like, siege engines. So you, you throw that on a wooden frame and, you know, yeah.
Lex Fridman
This is incredible. So this is one of the things that finally stabilized, stopped the bleeding from a military perspective.
This is incredible. So this is one of the things that finally stabilized, stopped the bleeding from a military perspective.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, eventually. Now, now remember, they’ve pulled the armies back into Asia Minor, so they’re, they’re beginning to defend and fortify Asia Minor. Now you have to find ways to pay and support and feed all of these soldiers, and this is a whole administrative—it’s a wrenching administrative readjustment. But they go through it. It takes them a long time. Eventually, they emerge with a different kind of strategic logistical system.
Yeah, eventually. Now, now remember, they’ve pulled the armies back into Asia Minor, so they’re, they’re beginning to defend and fortify Asia Minor. Now you have to find ways to pay and support and feed all of these soldiers, and this is a whole administrative—it’s a wrenching administrative readjustment. But they go through it. It takes them a long time. Eventually, they emerge with a different kind of strategic logistical system.
Lex Fridman
Just a smaller, harder- … core- … of the empire.
Just a smaller, harder- … core- … of the empire.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s right. Very militarized.
That’s right. Very militarized.
Lex Fridman
Very militarized. And then in the eighth century, the second Arab siege of Constantinople, that somehow fails.
Very militarized. And then in the eighth century, the second Arab siege of Constantinople, that somehow fails.
Anthony Kaldellis
In the early eighth century, yes, that was the second siege.
In the early eighth century, yes, that was the second siege.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, the early eighth century. So why, why did it fail? Can you tell the story of that siege? That was really the empire hanging by a thread.
Yeah, the early eighth century. So why, why did it fail? Can you tell the story of that siege? That was really the empire hanging by a thread.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes, but it happened to have a very competent man in charge. This is Leo III, and he’s an emperor who has—he’s a usurper. He’s just seized power. They knew that this massive Arab attack was coming, and so it’s quite possible that the Roman elites, you know, preferred to put someone capable in power at that moment. The city was very well prepared. I encourage people in the audience to go and read the sources that we have for that. You can find many accounts of it online. It was just very, very well done. He also had Bulgar allies.
Yes, but it happened to have a very competent man in charge. This is Leo III, and he’s an emperor who has—he’s a usurper. He’s just seized power. They knew that this massive Arab attack was coming, and so it’s quite possible that the Roman elites, you know, preferred to put someone capable in power at that moment. The city was very well prepared. I encourage people in the audience to go and read the sources that we have for that. You can find many accounts of it online. It was just very, very well done. He also had Bulgar allies.
Anthony Kaldellis
So these are the Bulgars who had just, you know, crossed the Danube just like just a few years earlier actually and settled south of the Danube, you know, where eventually, you know, Bulgaria emerged. So he had Bulgar allies, and he used the Greek fire very, very strategically. He used his own fleet. He contained the Arabs to certain places where they kind of starved and wore them down. Yeah, it’s just very well done.
So these are the Bulgars who had just, you know, crossed the Danube just like just a few years earlier actually and settled south of the Danube, you know, where eventually, you know, Bulgaria emerged. So he had Bulgar allies, and he used the Greek fire very, very strategically. He used his own fleet. He contained the Arabs to certain places where they kind of starved and wore them down. Yeah, it’s just very well done.
Lex Fridman
From a military perspective.
From a military perspective.
Anthony Kaldellis
From a military perspective.
From a military perspective.
Lex Fridman
Well, was there, was it the walls, the navy, the weather, the diplomacy, or just good luck that helped Constantinople hold?
Well, was there, was it the walls, the navy, the weather, the diplomacy, or just good luck that helped Constantinople hold?
Anthony Kaldellis
I don’t see much role for good luck there. I mean, I think he had it all pretty planned out. It was all of the elements that you mentioned. And yeah, he just deployed them very, very astutely and went on to rule after that for another 20-some years, and his son continued. They formed a dynasty. We call it the Isaurian dynasty, though they were not from Isauria.
I don’t see much role for good luck there. I mean, I think he had it all pretty planned out. It was all of the elements that you mentioned. And yeah, he just deployed them very, very astutely and went on to rule after that for another 20-some years, and his son continued. They formed a dynasty. We call it the Isaurian dynasty, though they were not from Isauria.
Lex Fridman
And then from that, the fascinating thing that we mentioned about religion, there was a whole stretch of time marked by intense internal religious conflicts over iconoclasm. Maybe you can clarify this, but so iconoclasm, of course, is whether sacred images, icons, should be venerated or destroyed. This had major political and theological stakes. The seemingly smallest things can have the biggest of conflicts.
And then from that, the fascinating thing that we mentioned about religion, there was a whole stretch of time marked by intense internal religious conflicts over iconoclasm. Maybe you can clarify this, but so iconoclasm, of course, is whether sacred images, icons, should be venerated or destroyed. This had major political and theological stakes. The seemingly smallest things can have the biggest of conflicts.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. You’ve been in an Orthodox church. Have you seen all the icons and the just painting everywhere? Every, every space that you can imagine is covered in either icons or images or iconography of saints.
Yeah. You’ve been in an Orthodox church. Have you seen all the icons and the just painting everywhere? Every, every space that you can imagine is covered in either icons or images or iconography of saints.
Anthony Kaldellis
All right. That’s a result of this. No, that’s not what Christian churches used to be like, at least not in Constantinople. But his dynasty basically tried to limit or remove images from churches, and ultimately that policy failed. And the other side that wanted images or liked images, or let me put it differently, thought that images were not only appropriate but helpful in the context of Christian worship prevailed. And so gradually the churches began to fill up with icons, lots of icons. They’re almost like, you know, like a, a catch word for Orthodox, you know, devotion. I have icons at home. You have a little corner in the house and you have little iconography. Anyway, I mean, as a secular Orthodox person, but I… even I can’t get away from them.
All right. That’s a result of this. No, that’s not what Christian churches used to be like, at least not in Constantinople. But his dynasty basically tried to limit or remove images from churches, and ultimately that policy failed. And the other side that wanted images or liked images, or let me put it differently, thought that images were not only appropriate but helpful in the context of Christian worship prevailed. And so gradually the churches began to fill up with icons, lots of icons. They’re almost like, you know, like a, a catch word for Orthodox, you know, devotion. I have icons at home. You have a little corner in the house and you have little iconography. Anyway, I mean, as a secular Orthodox person, but I… even I can’t get away from them.
Lex Fridman
But that has serious consequences. I mean, that was-
But that has serious consequences. I mean, that was-
Anthony Kaldellis
It does, yes,
It does, yes,
Lex Fridman
… serious. It was an extremely serious internal religious conflict.
… serious. It was an extremely serious internal religious conflict.
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, okay, so one asterisk on that. In my research, I did not find a popular interest in this matter. Like-
Well, okay, so one asterisk on that. In my research, I did not find a popular interest in this matter. Like-
Lex Fridman
Oh, interesting
Oh, interesting
Anthony Kaldellis
… yeah, I don’t-
… yeah, I don’t-
Lex Fridman
So this is an overblown-
So this is an overblown-
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. Yes, socially completely overblown.
Yes. Yes, socially completely overblown.
Lex Fridman
Oh, this is one of those things where religious folks will write the story of history.
Oh, this is one of those things where religious folks will write the story of history.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s it. Got it.
That’s it. Got it.
Lex Fridman
Ah.
Ah.
Anthony Kaldellis
You got it. I could not find… There were, like, a few emperors, and there’s some bishops and abbots and monks. Like, I don’t know, maybe 100, 200 people are, like, seriously invested in this, and they’re going at it. But these are the people who write the texts. But they never mention, for example, that, oh, you know, the, the people of Constantinople, they rose up, and they demanded icons or not icons or anything like that. Nah, never. So in my view, this is one of those controversies that’s only a few people really, really cared- … about it, and unfortunately, they’re the ones who wrote the sources.
You got it. I could not find… There were, like, a few emperors, and there’s some bishops and abbots and monks. Like, I don’t know, maybe 100, 200 people are, like, seriously invested in this, and they’re going at it. But these are the people who write the texts. But they never mention, for example, that, oh, you know, the, the people of Constantinople, they rose up, and they demanded icons or not icons or anything like that. Nah, never. So in my view, this is one of those controversies that’s only a few people really, really cared- … about it, and unfortunately, they’re the ones who wrote the sources.
Lex Fridman
So you always have to be very careful to consider the sources when you’re reading about anything involving religious events.
So you always have to be very careful to consider the sources when you’re reading about anything involving religious events.
Anthony Kaldellis
Or any kind of events.
Or any kind of events.
Lex Fridman
But certain things are more intensely, people are more intensely passionate about- … and therefore they’re going, that bias is going to- … bleed into the way you report the history.
But certain things are more intensely, people are more intensely passionate about- … and therefore they’re going, that bias is going to- … bleed into the way you report the history.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. And not only that, when emperors changed their policy, almost everyone fell into line. They switched positions. It’s like, “No, yeah, whatever. Put the images, take the images,” like, whatever. I mean, like this isn’t, they did not see this as central. Some people did, and they got very worked up about it. Anyway, but in the end, the pro-icon position won, and their view just began to fill up the space. Like, like it literally was filling up the churches, and it still does. Yeah.
Yeah. And not only that, when emperors changed their policy, almost everyone fell into line. They switched positions. It’s like, “No, yeah, whatever. Put the images, take the images,” like, whatever. I mean, like this isn’t, they did not see this as central. Some people did, and they got very worked up about it. Anyway, but in the end, the pro-icon position won, and their view just began to fill up the space. Like, like it literally was filling up the churches, and it still does. Yeah.
Why the Roman empire survived so long
Lex Fridman
The thing is, we somehow took on the impossible task of talking about a thousand-
The thing is, we somehow took on the impossible task of talking about a thousand-
Anthony Kaldellis
It’ll defeat you, man. It’ll defeat you every time.
It’ll defeat you, man. It’ll defeat you every time.
Lex Fridman
I mean, there’s a reason why you really wanna do a thousand-hour podcast on this, right? As you do, as there’s so many incredible conversations about every single emperor, every single nuanced detail of the emperors. It really is a thriving civilization. It’s a thriving empire which in it contains so many lessons for even the modern times. But anyway, you have written one of the books is Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood: The Rise and Fall of Byzantium, 955 AD to the First Crusade. So this period has… We talked about survival and some low points. This is a period where, once again, there’s some flourishing. So by the 10th century in the Macedonian era, the empire is back. It’s wealthy, it’s culturally confident, and under emperors like Basil II who I think is in your top 10 list.
I mean, there’s a reason why you really wanna do a thousand-hour podcast on this, right? As you do, as there’s so many incredible conversations about every single emperor, every single nuanced detail of the emperors. It really is a thriving civilization. It’s a thriving empire which in it contains so many lessons for even the modern times. But anyway, you have written one of the books is Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood: The Rise and Fall of Byzantium, 955 AD to the First Crusade. So this period has… We talked about survival and some low points. This is a period where, once again, there’s some flourishing. So by the 10th century in the Macedonian era, the empire is back. It’s wealthy, it’s culturally confident, and under emperors like Basil II who I think is in your top 10 list.
Lex Fridman
It is expanding again, and this is a period that you describe in part in your book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood. So how did Byzantium go from surviving to expanding again?
It is expanding again, and this is a period that you describe in part in your book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood. So how did Byzantium go from surviving to expanding again?
Anthony Kaldellis
So I wrote that book in part in order to test myself and see if I could write narrative. So I hadn’t written a history narrative book up until that point. Everything I wrote was sort of analytical, right? And it was successful enough that a few years later, my editor asked me to write the big history, the new Roman Empire-
So I wrote that book in part in order to test myself and see if I could write narrative. So I hadn’t written a history narrative book up until that point. Everything I wrote was sort of analytical, right? And it was successful enough that a few years later, my editor asked me to write the big history, the new Roman Empire-
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
Anthony Kaldellis
… the thousand page—
… the thousand page—
Lex Fridman
Of the whole thing
Of the whole thing
Anthony Kaldellis
… of the whole thing. And so I set for myself the task of explaining in this book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood, a very particular period that was marked by a sudden turn to conquest again after a long period of more or less defensive war. 955, a new military leadership is appointed, and the Romans go conquering again, especially in Cilicia, northern Syria, and Cyprus, and the Caucasus, and then eventually also Bulgaria. And then right afterwards, they have this generation plus period of stability and prosperity, and then they’re hit by a triple whammy. These are three new attackers. So it’s primarily the Seljuk Turks coming in from the east, some Pechenegs coming down from the north over the Danube, and the Normans in southern Italy.
… of the whole thing. And so I set for myself the task of explaining in this book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood, a very particular period that was marked by a sudden turn to conquest again after a long period of more or less defensive war. 955, a new military leadership is appointed, and the Romans go conquering again, especially in Cilicia, northern Syria, and Cyprus, and the Caucasus, and then eventually also Bulgaria. And then right afterwards, they have this generation plus period of stability and prosperity, and then they’re hit by a triple whammy. These are three new attackers. So it’s primarily the Seljuk Turks coming in from the east, some Pechenegs coming down from the north over the Danube, and the Normans in southern Italy.
Anthony Kaldellis
And under the pressure of this three-part attack, the, you know, this expansionist—what had become a more imperial state—buckles. And enters another one of these crises, just like the one we described for the seventh century. You know, survives it by the skin of its teeth. And goes on again to rebuild and become prosperous, wealthy, and powerful again, as it does throughout its history. It’s these cycles. So I just wanted to describe that iteration of that- … that process, and that’s what I do in that book.
And under the pressure of this three-part attack, the, you know, this expansionist—what had become a more imperial state—buckles. And enters another one of these crises, just like the one we described for the seventh century. You know, survives it by the skin of its teeth. And goes on again to rebuild and become prosperous, wealthy, and powerful again, as it does throughout its history. It’s these cycles. So I just wanted to describe that iteration of that- … that process, and that’s what I do in that book.
Lex Fridman
So I think the traditional view in this perfect storm of the 11th century is that it was more to do with the internal sort of moral decay and civilian emperors neglecting the army, this internal stuff. And you make the case that it’s the external stuff, the three-prong attack, like you said, Normans in the west, the Turkic steppe people in the north, and in Central Asia, the Turks in the east. Can you describe that—the three forces—and the case that that was the main reason why it hit a low?
So I think the traditional view in this perfect storm of the 11th century is that it was more to do with the internal sort of moral decay and civilian emperors neglecting the army, this internal stuff. And you make the case that it’s the external stuff, the three-prong attack, like you said, Normans in the west, the Turkic steppe people in the north, and in Central Asia, the Turks in the east. Can you describe that—the three forces—and the case that that was the main reason why it hit a low?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, this is also a methodological problem, right? In other words, when you’re looking at a society that suddenly faces a bunch of problems, and you could, you know, reasonably make the case for a kind of decline or a crisis, is your instinct, it’s your first instinct to suppose that there must be something wrong in the internal mechanisms of that society that, you know, led it to fail, which is what my field has done traditionally. In part because of the decline and fall model, right, of this society, we’re kind of primed to think that there was something wrong with it.
Well, this is also a methodological problem, right? In other words, when you’re looking at a society that suddenly faces a bunch of problems, and you could, you know, reasonably make the case for a kind of decline or a crisis, is your instinct, it’s your first instinct to suppose that there must be something wrong in the internal mechanisms of that society that, you know, led it to fail, which is what my field has done traditionally. In part because of the decline and fall model, right, of this society, we’re kind of primed to think that there was something wrong with it.
Anthony Kaldellis
It’s a long story. Or is it reasonable to say that a society that does not seem to have any, like, particularly serious structural flaws is hit by external, you know, challenges that it couldn’t realistically have foreseen or prepared for such that, you know, it couldn’t cope with them and, as I said, buckled. And I think that’s what happened. I think that’s the main narrative. Not that there weren’t problems. There were. But no state can, I mean, medieval or ancient, can realistically survive the simultaneous attack of three very different kinds of enemies, the Normans or, like, these knights, like a new type of Western warfare that is just all about, you know, grinding the enemy to bits. But who are also terrorists. Like, they’re straight up terrorists.
It’s a long story. Or is it reasonable to say that a society that does not seem to have any, like, particularly serious structural flaws is hit by external, you know, challenges that it couldn’t realistically have foreseen or prepared for such that, you know, it couldn’t cope with them and, as I said, buckled. And I think that’s what happened. I think that’s the main narrative. Not that there weren’t problems. There were. But no state can, I mean, medieval or ancient, can realistically survive the simultaneous attack of three very different kinds of enemies, the Normans or, like, these knights, like a new type of Western warfare that is just all about, you know, grinding the enemy to bits. But who are also terrorists. Like, they’re straight up terrorists.
Lex Fridman
Normans are fascinating because, I mean, there’s-
Normans are fascinating because, I mean, there’s-
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah
Yeah
Lex Fridman
… there’s a Viking component too- … with the Normans. That’s a whole… So they have, they have three different kinds of enemies.
… there’s a Viking component too- … with the Normans. That’s a whole… So they have, they have three different kinds of enemies.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. The Pechenegs, who, you know, a totally different type of, you know, probably mostly nomadic horsemen. And then the Seljuk Turks who are also mostly nomadic horsemen, but who are coming in from Central Asia with vast reserves of manpower behind them. In fact, either intending to or, as it happens, effecting a demographic change in not just demographic, but ecological too, because they basically, when they move into Asia Minor, they’re transforming or terraforming agricultural land into pasturage. And they’re just backed by reserves of manpower that no other enemy of the empire has had yet.
Yes. The Pechenegs, who, you know, a totally different type of, you know, probably mostly nomadic horsemen. And then the Seljuk Turks who are also mostly nomadic horsemen, but who are coming in from Central Asia with vast reserves of manpower behind them. In fact, either intending to or, as it happens, effecting a demographic change in not just demographic, but ecological too, because they basically, when they move into Asia Minor, they’re transforming or terraforming agricultural land into pasturage. And they’re just backed by reserves of manpower that no other enemy of the empire has had yet.
Anthony Kaldellis
So yeah, how do you, how do you cope with these situations? I mean, they’re, it’s very, very difficult, and it’s a wonder that they survived it at all. Now, they also have internal problems, and I’m not gonna sort of try to sweep these under the rug, right? In particular, we’re seeing the end of the Macedonian dynasty. This is a dynasty that had lasted for about two centuries, and this has a kind of politically destabilizing effect. New emperors, and there are a lot of, like, childless old men in this period, are relatively insecure.
So yeah, how do you, how do you cope with these situations? I mean, they’re, it’s very, very difficult, and it’s a wonder that they survived it at all. Now, they also have internal problems, and I’m not gonna sort of try to sweep these under the rug, right? In particular, we’re seeing the end of the Macedonian dynasty. This is a dynasty that had lasted for about two centuries, and this has a kind of politically destabilizing effect. New emperors, and there are a lot of, like, childless old men in this period, are relatively insecure.
Anthony Kaldellis
They don’t have this sort of a dynastic glitz behind them, and so they’re tending to, to buy a lot of political support, like hand out these exemptions, give cash, you know, titles to anyone who will support them, and this, of course, causes a budget problem. Like, they don’t have enough money after a while. And then they have to start raising all of these armies to deal with all of these problems, and that just increases the pressure on the budget, and so there is an internal problem as well, yeah.
They don’t have this sort of a dynastic glitz behind them, and so they’re tending to, to buy a lot of political support, like hand out these exemptions, give cash, you know, titles to anyone who will support them, and this, of course, causes a budget problem. Like, they don’t have enough money after a while. And then they have to start raising all of these armies to deal with all of these problems, and that just increases the pressure on the budget, and so there is an internal problem as well, yeah.
Lex Fridman
So you mentioned this loop of thriving and then having to survive, surviving, that happens a few times- … throughout the history of the Roman Empire. It seems that societies in general oscillate in that way. Is there something particular you could say about the oscillations, the loops that the Roman Empire goes through?
So you mentioned this loop of thriving and then having to survive, surviving, that happens a few times- … throughout the history of the Roman Empire. It seems that societies in general oscillate in that way. Is there something particular you could say about the oscillations, the loops that the Roman Empire goes through?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. Now, I don’t think this is an oscillation. At least that’s not how I think of it in my own mind. So as I explained, the crises that this em- this polity, this state, this society that it undergoes are dis- there are a discrete number of them. I can, I can tell you what they are, and we’ve, we’ve talked about most of them so far.
Yes. Now, I don’t think this is an oscillation. At least that’s not how I think of it in my own mind. So as I explained, the crises that this em- this polity, this state, this society that it undergoes are dis- there are a discrete number of them. I can, I can tell you what they are, and we’ve, we’ve talked about most of them so far.
Anthony Kaldellis
They don’t last very long, and they are all sudden challenges that appear from the outside. In other words, they’re exogenous shocks that they can’t really have prepared for. These shocks cause massive territorial loss, which requires adjustment, right? But they don’t last that long. In other words, the Romans almost always, at some point, figure out how to hold a line, how to consolidate their position, regroup, and put their economy and their society back on a trajectory of revival, regrowth, and eventual reconquest. Always. Every single time, except the last time, right? And for me, this poses the following kind of dilemma which I can answer.
They don’t last very long, and they are all sudden challenges that appear from the outside. In other words, they’re exogenous shocks that they can’t really have prepared for. These shocks cause massive territorial loss, which requires adjustment, right? But they don’t last that long. In other words, the Romans almost always, at some point, figure out how to hold a line, how to consolidate their position, regroup, and put their economy and their society back on a trajectory of revival, regrowth, and eventual reconquest. Always. Every single time, except the last time, right? And for me, this poses the following kind of dilemma which I can answer.
Anthony Kaldellis
And the dilemma is, should we define the society by these brief crises of exogenous shocks, or should we define it by the centuries-long, sometimes, periods of regrowth, consolidation, and stabilization which are endogenous. Nobody came from the outside to help them rebuild. And my answer is unequivocally the latter. So I see this as a society whose internal organization primes it to stabilize and embark on steady growth. Slow and gradual, but steady. And, and that’s what I would like my field to explain more, and I’m gonna try to do so in the book I mentioned that I’m writing on, like, the longevity or the resilience of this society.
And the dilemma is, should we define the society by these brief crises of exogenous shocks, or should we define it by the centuries-long, sometimes, periods of regrowth, consolidation, and stabilization which are endogenous. Nobody came from the outside to help them rebuild. And my answer is unequivocally the latter. So I see this as a society whose internal organization primes it to stabilize and embark on steady growth. Slow and gradual, but steady. And, and that’s what I would like my field to explain more, and I’m gonna try to do so in the book I mentioned that I’m writing on, like, the longevity or the resilience of this society.
Anthony Kaldellis
And not try to center the crises, which I see as being from the outside. Like, these aren’t… Of course, they’re part of its story, but they’re not coming from it. What’s coming from it is the stability, and I think that’s the more interesting part of this society.
And not try to center the crises, which I see as being from the outside. Like, these aren’t… Of course, they’re part of its story, but they’re not coming from it. What’s coming from it is the stability, and I think that’s the more interesting part of this society.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, so the, you know, these peak-to-peak histories, as you can think of them, they miss the machinery in the valleys. Institutions, incentives, daily life, all of these things. The politics, the religion. You have a bunch of revisionist history ideas in your work. You’re challenging the field.
Yeah, so the, you know, these peak-to-peak histories, as you can think of them, they miss the machinery in the valleys. Institutions, incentives, daily life, all of these things. The politics, the religion. You have a bunch of revisionist history ideas in your work. You’re challenging the field.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. You could say that.
Yes. You could say that.
Lex Fridman
In the best possible way. So just to linger on it, what are, what are some of the things that historians miss? So this is a big one, right, that you’re speaking to, which is, like, focusing too much on specific moments versus on the broad structural underpinnings of, of an empire, of our society.
In the best possible way. So just to linger on it, what are, what are some of the things that historians miss? So this is a big one, right, that you’re speaking to, which is, like, focusing too much on specific moments versus on the broad structural underpinnings of, of an empire, of our society.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right. So what you alluded to there is a critique of what we might call short histories of Byzantium, which is a kind of genre of a book. Right? This isn’t necessarily, like, what my other revisionist ideas are about. The more important ones are things like the monarchical republic that we talked about. In other words, that there’s actually a broader spectrum of political participation. That emperors are having to look over their shoulders all the time. That there is a deeper matrix of Roman Republican thought there. Like, that’s one revisionist idea. Another one is about Roman identity, just like who are these people?
Right. So what you alluded to there is a critique of what we might call short histories of Byzantium, which is a kind of genre of a book. Right? This isn’t necessarily, like, what my other revisionist ideas are about. The more important ones are things like the monarchical republic that we talked about. In other words, that there’s actually a broader spectrum of political participation. That emperors are having to look over their shoulders all the time. That there is a deeper matrix of Roman Republican thought there. Like, that’s one revisionist idea. Another one is about Roman identity, just like who are these people?
Anthony Kaldellis
And no, they are Romans, and in fact, it’s kind of an ethnic identity after a certain point. Like, those kinds of ideas. The criticism of the peak-to-peak kinds of books. So if you’re trying to condense 1,200 years into 120 pages or even, you know, even 200 pages, there’s no way to do so realistically and give a sense of the whole terrain. In other words, what these books do is they go, they jump from highlight to highlight, and these highlights are sometimes things like, you know, everything Justinian did because it’s so extravagant, to the crises.
And no, they are Romans, and in fact, it’s kind of an ethnic identity after a certain point. Like, those kinds of ideas. The criticism of the peak-to-peak kinds of books. So if you’re trying to condense 1,200 years into 120 pages or even, you know, even 200 pages, there’s no way to do so realistically and give a sense of the whole terrain. In other words, what these books do is they go, they jump from highlight to highlight, and these highlights are sometimes things like, you know, everything Justinian did because it’s so extravagant, to the crises.
Anthony Kaldellis
The crises are, of course, dramatic moments that you can’t skip. And you can’t get a sense from these books as to how all of this is interconnected in the valleys, right? In the crags, down there. Like, what, what are the mechanisms that are connecting these peaks together? And that’s how I tried to write the big history, The New Roman Empire. Is to tell the story by casting light in those darker places. That is, to show how especially institutions and ideologies sort of tie, you know, people’s lives together. That is, tie people to institutions and to the broader history that surrounds them.
The crises are, of course, dramatic moments that you can’t skip. And you can’t get a sense from these books as to how all of this is interconnected in the valleys, right? In the crags, down there. Like, what, what are the mechanisms that are connecting these peaks together? And that’s how I tried to write the big history, The New Roman Empire. Is to tell the story by casting light in those darker places. That is, to show how especially institutions and ideologies sort of tie, you know, people’s lives together. That is, tie people to institutions and to the broader history that surrounds them.
Anthony Kaldellis
So that the reader can get a sense when I’m, when I’m recounting specific events or either of, you know, greatness or of a success or a failure, that they can understand roughly why these things are happening, right? Look, there’s no perfect answer. A short book will just not tell you these things. A long book, well, is a long book.
So that the reader can get a sense when I’m, when I’m recounting specific events or either of, you know, greatness or of a success or a failure, that they can understand roughly why these things are happening, right? Look, there’s no perfect answer. A short book will just not tell you these things. A long book, well, is a long book.
Lex Fridman
Well, in some sense, I mean, this, in this, even in this very conversation, I think we did a pretty good job of looking at the valleys, at the structure, at the institutions. And that gives you a sense of the whole underpinnings. And so it’s, it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful way to see history, especially for societies that have lasted as long as- … as the, as the East Roman Empire has.
Well, in some sense, I mean, this, in this, even in this very conversation, I think we did a pretty good job of looking at the valleys, at the structure, at the institutions. And that gives you a sense of the whole underpinnings. And so it’s, it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful way to see history, especially for societies that have lasted as long as- … as the, as the East Roman Empire has.
Anthony Kaldellis
But it did take us a few hours.
But it did take us a few hours.
Lex Fridman
Yes.
Yes.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. You’re right. But it requires that you actually spend some time to look in there, yeah. Yeah.
Yes. You’re right. But it requires that you actually spend some time to look in there, yeah. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
What’s a few hours among friends?
What’s a few hours among friends?
Anthony Kaldellis
No, no, no, that’s… I agree.
No, no, no, that’s… I agree.
Lex Fridman
So zooming out and asking once again, the old—we’re getting a little close to last call at a bar, I’m gonna ask you the big question. We asked it before about the collapse of the West Roman Empire. When did the decline of the East Roman Empire begin for you? Throughout these loops, when, if you were to predict, would you be able to say where this is gonna be over? And what led to that decline and the collapse? So of course, the collapse is finally in 1453 AD.
So zooming out and asking once again, the old—we’re getting a little close to last call at a bar, I’m gonna ask you the big question. We asked it before about the collapse of the West Roman Empire. When did the decline of the East Roman Empire begin for you? Throughout these loops, when, if you were to predict, would you be able to say where this is gonna be over? And what led to that decline and the collapse? So of course, the collapse is finally in 1453 AD.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right. That’s actually a very good question. In other words, not looking at all of the previous crises that caused loss of territory, like, you know, you lose Egypt, you lose Syria, you lose Palestine, you lose Eastern Asia Minor, you lo- right? But at what point could you say there’s no coming back from this?
Right. That’s actually a very good question. In other words, not looking at all of the previous crises that caused loss of territory, like, you know, you lose Egypt, you lose Syria, you lose Palestine, you lose Eastern Asia Minor, you lo- right? But at what point could you say there’s no coming back from this?
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? I would say early 14th century. Somewhere between 1300 and 1350, the sources of resilience begin to dry up, and you have a number of setbacks. They lose Asia Minor to the Turks by 1300, roughly, which means that you can now no longer draw upon the two wings, as it were, the European side and the Asian side, which they could always do. They’re confined to Europe. And then you have a series of civil wars, you have the Serbian expansion and you have the Black Death, and they never recover from that. In 1300, you think of this, you look at it and you think, “That’s a tiny little Balkan state.”
Right? I would say early 14th century. Somewhere between 1300 and 1350, the sources of resilience begin to dry up, and you have a number of setbacks. They lose Asia Minor to the Turks by 1300, roughly, which means that you can now no longer draw upon the two wings, as it were, the European side and the Asian side, which they could always do. They’re confined to Europe. And then you have a series of civil wars, you have the Serbian expansion and you have the Black Death, and they never recover from that. In 1300, you think of this, you look at it and you think, “That’s a tiny little Balkan state.”
Anthony Kaldellis
Okay, it goes from Constantinople to the Adriatic in this just sort of ribbon, right, this corridor that just stretches across the Balkans. And yet, it’s not that much smaller than England and has about as much, if not more, revenue, because they’re still able to raise cash, because taxes. Right? So the emperor’s still able to pull in a lot of gold. And his territory is not, you know, completely insignificant. It’s not what, you know, the Roman Empire used to be. But I don’t think that it’s completely lost. Then they have some civil wars. Then one emper- a rebel makes a deal with the Serbs, surrenders half that territory. Okay, after that, game over. What’s surprising is it takes the Turks that long. 1453, that’s another century.
Okay, it goes from Constantinople to the Adriatic in this just sort of ribbon, right, this corridor that just stretches across the Balkans. And yet, it’s not that much smaller than England and has about as much, if not more, revenue, because they’re still able to raise cash, because taxes. Right? So the emperor’s still able to pull in a lot of gold. And his territory is not, you know, completely insignificant. It’s not what, you know, the Roman Empire used to be. But I don’t think that it’s completely lost. Then they have some civil wars. Then one emper- a rebel makes a deal with the Serbs, surrenders half that territory. Okay, after that, game over. What’s surprising is it takes the Turks that long. 1453, that’s another century.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? It didn’t need to be. It looks like they might have had it wrapped up like 50 years aft-, you know, like by 1400. But then accidental events happened. This is Timur, Tamerlane comes- … from Central Asia, trounces the Turks, breaks up their empire. So they go into a cycle of, you know, rebuilding, and so that’s why it takes another 50 years. Anyway, but I’d say by the 1340s, game over.
Right? It didn’t need to be. It looks like they might have had it wrapped up like 50 years aft-, you know, like by 1400. But then accidental events happened. This is Timur, Tamerlane comes- … from Central Asia, trounces the Turks, breaks up their empire. So they go into a cycle of, you know, rebuilding, and so that’s why it takes another 50 years. Anyway, but I’d say by the 1340s, game over.
Lex Fridman
And so why did it collapse? What are the things in the ground, when you zoom out, the thing that ate away at the, I like this term, sources of resilience?
And so why did it collapse? What are the things in the ground, when you zoom out, the thing that ate away at the, I like this term, sources of resilience?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, foreign invasions. There’s no question. It’s just-
Oh, foreign invasions. There’s no question. It’s just-
Lex Fridman
It’s just invasions.
It’s just invasions.
Anthony Kaldellis
…it’s foreign invasions, those which they could not cope with. They coped with lots of them. But, you know, it, all it takes is to lose to one, and you lose some part of your territory. And if you keep losing enough, you won’t have anything to fall back on, and that’s what happens.
…it’s foreign invasions, those which they could not cope with. They coped with lots of them. But, you know, it, all it takes is to lose to one, and you lose some part of your territory. And if you keep losing enough, you won’t have anything to fall back on, and that’s what happens.
Lex Fridman
So really, you know, if there’s no significant external invasions, the East Roman Empire, the fundamentals, the taxation system, the way the policies were developed, the way the politics was done, the way the representation was done, all of that, this empire could have lasted for another thousand years.
So really, you know, if there’s no significant external invasions, the East Roman Empire, the fundamentals, the taxation system, the way the policies were developed, the way the politics was done, the way the representation was done, all of that, this empire could have lasted for another thousand years.
Anthony Kaldellis
Absolutely. I’m absolutely convinced of this because you never see movements to split away. That is, there’s no separatist movements, at least not on the part of any Roman provincials. There’s one separatist movement, which is Bulgaria. We mentioned Bulgaria was conquered, right, in 1018. It, there’s a couple of independentist movements, rebellions. Eventually one succeeds in 1185, so just under two centuries. So Bulgaria is the only part of this empire that actively seeks to break away and does so. But for the rest of the 1,200 years, you don’t find provincials wanting to leave this system. However much they complain about the taxes, they don’t want to leave, and they make no move to do so.
Absolutely. I’m absolutely convinced of this because you never see movements to split away. That is, there’s no separatist movements, at least not on the part of any Roman provincials. There’s one separatist movement, which is Bulgaria. We mentioned Bulgaria was conquered, right, in 1018. It, there’s a couple of independentist movements, rebellions. Eventually one succeeds in 1185, so just under two centuries. So Bulgaria is the only part of this empire that actively seeks to break away and does so. But for the rest of the 1,200 years, you don’t find provincials wanting to leave this system. However much they complain about the taxes, they don’t want to leave, and they make no move to do so.
Anthony Kaldellis
You also never have a moment when the center loses its ability to tax its territories, right? You don’t have, like, widespread peasant uprisings or agricultural rebellions or these kinds of things which happens in every other one of these empires. They also never decide to partition it. The Franks partition theirs, right, like after Charlemagne. No. There are no, like, Roman warlords that try to carve out a piece of the territory for themselves and rule it independent. Nope, that doesn’t happen either. So if you’re looking at the kinds of factors that cause states to fail, fragment, you know, become ungovernable, these never happen.
You also never have a moment when the center loses its ability to tax its territories, right? You don’t have, like, widespread peasant uprisings or agricultural rebellions or these kinds of things which happens in every other one of these empires. They also never decide to partition it. The Franks partition theirs, right, like after Charlemagne. No. There are no, like, Roman warlords that try to carve out a piece of the territory for themselves and rule it independent. Nope, that doesn’t happen either. So if you’re looking at the kinds of factors that cause states to fail, fragment, you know, become ungovernable, these never happen.
Lex Fridman
This is so incredible. This is truly incredible. In the history of human civilization, just an incredible study of what human societies can form. So, what are the whys? Why? Why? Why was it so stable?
This is so incredible. This is truly incredible. In the history of human civilization, just an incredible study of what human societies can form. So, what are the whys? Why? Why? Why was it so stable?
Anthony Kaldellis
Well, now look, there are other stable… Like, for example the, the British monarchy.
Well, now look, there are other stable… Like, for example the, the British monarchy.
Lex Fridman
Sure.
Sure.
Anthony Kaldellis
That’s been around for quite a while.
That’s been around for quite a while.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, that’s true.
Yeah, that’s true.
Anthony Kaldellis
Right? States like Portugal, Japan, they have one thing in common. They’re all tucked away at the edges. Like, they’re off, they’re little islands or whatever. They’re not like, right? We’re talking about a society that was right in the-
Right? States like Portugal, Japan, they have one thing in common. They’re all tucked away at the edges. Like, they’re off, they’re little islands or whatever. They’re not like, right? We’re talking about a society that was right in the-
Lex Fridman
In the, yeah
In the, yeah
Anthony Kaldellis
… middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood, right, that you can possibly live in. So no wonder it didn’t survive. Like it would’ve been extraordinary if it had. But absent those forces, I don’t see any forces of internal decomposition that would have imperiled it, you know, significantly.
… middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood, right, that you can possibly live in. So no wonder it didn’t survive. Like it would’ve been extraordinary if it had. But absent those forces, I don’t see any forces of internal decomposition that would have imperiled it, you know, significantly.
Lex Fridman
So what, I mean we’ve talked about a lot of it, but what, just to, like, return to it, why was there no internal sources of decomposition? Like why, why did it work so well? Why did the people feel represented? Yes, they… By the way, you talked about how they complain about the taxes, which is one of the signs of a healthy society, that we… It’s like complaining about the weather. The fact that you complain about the taxes actually means that you’re happy with the taxes, kind of counterintuitively, or it’s not too bad. You’re just complaining as part of the system. Anyway, but why? Why, why did it work so well? Why did everybody get along-
So what, I mean we’ve talked about a lot of it, but what, just to, like, return to it, why was there no internal sources of decomposition? Like why, why did it work so well? Why did the people feel represented? Yes, they… By the way, you talked about how they complain about the taxes, which is one of the signs of a healthy society, that we… It’s like complaining about the weather. The fact that you complain about the taxes actually means that you’re happy with the taxes, kind of counterintuitively, or it’s not too bad. You’re just complaining as part of the system. Anyway, but why? Why, why did it work so well? Why did everybody get along-
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, no, they
Oh, no, they
Lex Fridman
… feel represented? No, not get along. Not in a, in a silly way. I mean, sufficiently to where they wouldn’t… Warlords wouldn’t rise and break apart the system and- … or if there was those kinds of forces, they would come back together. Like, why is this such a great self-healing system?
… feel represented? No, not get along. Not in a, in a silly way. I mean, sufficiently to where they wouldn’t… Warlords wouldn’t rise and break apart the system and- … or if there was those kinds of forces, they would come back together. Like, why is this such a great self-healing system?
Anthony Kaldellis
So you’re exactly right. So sufficient is the key word. We don’t want to idealize this, right? These aren’t, like, they’re not just dancing in the streets, holding hands and then direct… It’s so– Even when it comes to the tax system, they are complaining all the time. Of course, they’re doing so because they know that complaining gets you things.
So you’re exactly right. So sufficient is the key word. We don’t want to idealize this, right? These aren’t, like, they’re not just dancing in the streets, holding hands and then direct… It’s so– Even when it comes to the tax system, they are complaining all the time. Of course, they’re doing so because they know that complaining gets you things.
Anthony Kaldellis
There’s no disincentive to complaining. You might not get what you want, or you might get it, but you know, no harm will come to you. So they’re complaining all the time. They have all of these civil wars. They’re like, “Okay.” So I think I would give you a two-part answer, so really quickly, as to why this held together so well. First is that an extraordinary effort was made by the authorities to persuade their subjects that they were ruling on their behalf, and I think, for the most part, actually tended to do so. And the second is that it had a very tightly unified identity as Roman and as Orthodox. In other words, for the most, most time, they knew that they were surrounded by enemies who were not those things.
There’s no disincentive to complaining. You might not get what you want, or you might get it, but you know, no harm will come to you. So they’re complaining all the time. They have all of these civil wars. They’re like, “Okay.” So I think I would give you a two-part answer, so really quickly, as to why this held together so well. First is that an extraordinary effort was made by the authorities to persuade their subjects that they were ruling on their behalf, and I think, for the most part, actually tended to do so. And the second is that it had a very tightly unified identity as Roman and as Orthodox. In other words, for the most, most time, they knew that they were surrounded by enemies who were not those things.
Anthony Kaldellis
And they did not want to live under the power of non-Romans and non-Christian people. And so those two factors combined, I think, gave everybody reason to hold it together. The alternatives were worse.
And they did not want to live under the power of non-Romans and non-Christian people. And so those two factors combined, I think, gave everybody reason to hold it together. The alternatives were worse.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I mean, that’s a really brilliant summary, and I think we should mention that both the rhetoric and the action are important. I think you’ve articulated that rhetoric is really powerful, like stating over and over and over- … that you represent the people, that you’re acting on behalf of the people and doing the action. But it’s not enough to actually do the action. You would think that’s all Machiavelli says, that’s the only thing that matters. But no.
Yeah. I mean, that’s a really brilliant summary, and I think we should mention that both the rhetoric and the action are important. I think you’ve articulated that rhetoric is really powerful, like stating over and over and over- … that you represent the people, that you’re acting on behalf of the people and doing the action. But it’s not enough to actually do the action. You would think that’s all Machiavelli says, that’s the only thing that matters. But no.
Anthony Kaldellis
No.
No.
Lex Fridman
It’s the rhetoric actually has a lot of power- … because it is a uniting idea- … an ideal that propagates through time, and it pacifies you. It makes you, it puts you at peace. Rhetoric is important.
It’s the rhetoric actually has a lot of power- … because it is a uniting idea- … an ideal that propagates through time, and it pacifies you. It makes you, it puts you at peace. Rhetoric is important.
Anthony Kaldellis
I’ll give you an example. As an academic administrator, right? I mean, I was chair of department for years and years. There’s a difference between a dean who says, “Sorry, bad budget situation. We’re just gonna have to cut your programs,” on the one hand, and a dean who says, “I am fully on board with what you’re trying to accomplish with these programs. I am a defender of the humanities. Unfortunately, we have this budget situation, and we’re gonna have to cut some of the programs. But I assure you, the moment I’m in this with you together- … the moment we find the funds, we will restore them.” Those two just rhetorical strategies, they’re aiming at the same practical outcome, will produce very different levels of compliance- … right, and consensus.
I’ll give you an example. As an academic administrator, right? I mean, I was chair of department for years and years. There’s a difference between a dean who says, “Sorry, bad budget situation. We’re just gonna have to cut your programs,” on the one hand, and a dean who says, “I am fully on board with what you’re trying to accomplish with these programs. I am a defender of the humanities. Unfortunately, we have this budget situation, and we’re gonna have to cut some of the programs. But I assure you, the moment I’m in this with you together- … the moment we find the funds, we will restore them.” Those two just rhetorical strategies, they’re aiming at the same practical outcome, will produce very different levels of compliance- … right, and consensus.
Lex Fridman
And I should say that there’s subtlety there. The best rhetoric in that context, and maybe in the East Roman Empire, is you also have to believe it.
And I should say that there’s subtlety there. The best rhetoric in that context, and maybe in the East Roman Empire, is you also have to believe it.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes. It has to be credible. You can’t just say it and then not do it.
Yes. It has to be credible. You can’t just say it and then not do it.
Lex Fridman
But one of the things I’ve learned about humans, just having doing this little podcast, is that… People could– Like, the best way to say a thing, a powerful thing, is to really believe it. And so, like, this is clearly one of the things that made the Roman Empire work, is doing the action is the best way to make the rhetoric powerful and effective.
But one of the things I’ve learned about humans, just having doing this little podcast, is that… People could– Like, the best way to say a thing, a powerful thing, is to really believe it. And so, like, this is clearly one of the things that made the Roman Empire work, is doing the action is the best way to make the rhetoric powerful and effective.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. This is sort of what Aristotle says about tyrants. In The Politics, Aristotle’s giving essentially advice to tyrants on how to protect themselves because tyrants are usually hated and are killed in coups, right? And he says, “Well, how are– You know, essentially, how do you manage to secure yourself when you’re a tyrant?” Well, you know, you can start by maybe, you know, obeying the laws or making sure that your subjects obey the laws and, you know, maybe work for the interests of yourself. Essentially, he’s telling them to kind of become benevolent kings. And the best way to persuade your subjects that you’re legitimate benevolent kings is to be that.
Yeah. This is sort of what Aristotle says about tyrants. In The Politics, Aristotle’s giving essentially advice to tyrants on how to protect themselves because tyrants are usually hated and are killed in coups, right? And he says, “Well, how are– You know, essentially, how do you manage to secure yourself when you’re a tyrant?” Well, you know, you can start by maybe, you know, obeying the laws or making sure that your subjects obey the laws and, you know, maybe work for the interests of yourself. Essentially, he’s telling them to kind of become benevolent kings. And the best way to persuade your subjects that you’re legitimate benevolent kings is to be that.
Lessons from history
Lex Fridman
So what, from all of this, from this 2,200-year history of the Roman Empire, what lessons can we draw for modern times? Now we’re sitting in America, this young empire. I know we’re not calling it an empire, but, you know.
So what, from all of this, from this 2,200-year history of the Roman Empire, what lessons can we draw for modern times? Now we’re sitting in America, this young empire. I know we’re not calling it an empire, but, you know.
Anthony Kaldellis
Lots of people are calling it an empire. I thought it was sort of taboo. Yeah, in the 20th century, it was like, “Is America an empire now?” But like, I think since the Iraq War, like since 2003, I’ve seen at least very casual uses of America and empire in the same sentence without any kind of hand-wringing.
Lots of people are calling it an empire. I thought it was sort of taboo. Yeah, in the 20th century, it was like, “Is America an empire now?” But like, I think since the Iraq War, like since 2003, I’ve seen at least very casual uses of America and empire in the same sentence without any kind of hand-wringing.
Lex Fridman
Is it ever called that in an academic setting?
Is it ever called that in an academic setting?
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
I mean, it’s technically, I guess you could say- … given, given the expanse of the military bases and the military might and the way that represents itself in the geopolitical context.
I mean, it’s technically, I guess you could say- … given, given the expanse of the military bases and the military might and the way that represents itself in the geopolitical context.
Anthony Kaldellis
There are books published all the time that unironically discuss America as an empire in various ways. Yeah, no.
There are books published all the time that unironically discuss America as an empire in various ways. Yeah, no.
Lex Fridman
By the way, both positive and negative. So when you’re saying a positive thing about America, calling it an empire, and when you’re saying it to criticize America, you call it an empire. Yeah, you’re right.
By the way, both positive and negative. So when you’re saying a positive thing about America, calling it an empire, and when you’re saying it to criticize America, you call it an empire. Yeah, you’re right.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. I mean, most academic books aren’t trying to do, like, either. They’re just trying to analyze a situation.
Yeah. I mean, most academic books aren’t trying to do, like, either. They’re just trying to analyze a situation.
Lex Fridman
What lessons about representing the people, about flourishing, about stability can we draw?
What lessons about representing the people, about flourishing, about stability can we draw?
Anthony Kaldellis
I will say that, just drawing on what we were talking about a moment ago, that investing in institutions that work for the majority of your subjects, even if indirectly—like they have to pay a cost for them, but you have to explain to them why they’re paying that cost—is to the benefit of the ruling classes as well. Because you’re, you’re– ideally, you’re thinking about long-term success and not just your own short-term, you know, gain. And I think that’s what this society tends to do well. You know, the Romans generally, you know how they built roads for the centuries and the millennia. They built institutions too. You know, one of the institutions they built was, like, the Christian Church. Like, they build things to last.
I will say that, just drawing on what we were talking about a moment ago, that investing in institutions that work for the majority of your subjects, even if indirectly—like they have to pay a cost for them, but you have to explain to them why they’re paying that cost—is to the benefit of the ruling classes as well. Because you’re, you’re– ideally, you’re thinking about long-term success and not just your own short-term, you know, gain. And I think that’s what this society tends to do well. You know, the Romans generally, you know how they built roads for the centuries and the millennia. They built institutions too. You know, one of the institutions they built was, like, the Christian Church. Like, they build things to last.
Anthony Kaldellis
And I think that’s a, that’s a good lesson beyond even the roads. I think institutions that explain, you know, to people why they exist is… Yeah, I think we could we could use some of that.
And I think that’s a, that’s a good lesson beyond even the roads. I think institutions that explain, you know, to people why they exist is… Yeah, I think we could we could use some of that.
Lex Fridman
And also the first point you made about the East Roman Empire. I think you’ve said that US foreign policy sometimes has a, quite a large gap between the rhetoric and, in modern times, the rhetoric and the action.
And also the first point you made about the East Roman Empire. I think you’ve said that US foreign policy sometimes has a, quite a large gap between the rhetoric and, in modern times, the rhetoric and the action.
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
And so that’s to the Machiavelli’s point that we want to maybe narrow that gap for a successful empire, for a successful nation. The rhetoric has to match the action.
And so that’s to the Machiavelli’s point that we want to maybe narrow that gap for a successful empire, for a successful nation. The rhetoric has to match the action.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And it doesn’t quite, for some of the foreign policy engagements in the world.
And it doesn’t quite, for some of the foreign policy engagements in the world.
Anthony Kaldellis
So in the context of the society I study, let’s say the army is the single largest expense, is doing pretty much what the emperors say that it’s doing, which is protecting its subjects. That’s actually what it’s doing most of the time. Not all the time. So, for example, emperors will sometimes take the armies out on a raid or an expedition, you know, crack some skulls, gather some plunder, come back, and this is done to glorify the emperor. Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, this does happen. But for the most part, they’re doing that, not much else. And actually, in pre-modern context, it’s very difficult to operate like, you know, shadow foreign policies and things like this. Like, it’s just not part of the-
So in the context of the society I study, let’s say the army is the single largest expense, is doing pretty much what the emperors say that it’s doing, which is protecting its subjects. That’s actually what it’s doing most of the time. Not all the time. So, for example, emperors will sometimes take the armies out on a raid or an expedition, you know, crack some skulls, gather some plunder, come back, and this is done to glorify the emperor. Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, this does happen. But for the most part, they’re doing that, not much else. And actually, in pre-modern context, it’s very difficult to operate like, you know, shadow foreign policies and things like this. Like, it’s just not part of the-
Anthony Kaldellis
… It’s not, not, not in the cards. But America in particular has such a history of proclaiming the loftiest goals. It’s just, sometimes just, you know, breathtakingly implausible.
… It’s not, not, not in the cards. But America in particular has such a history of proclaiming the loftiest goals. It’s just, sometimes just, you know, breathtakingly implausible.
Lex Fridman
Plus the incredible engineering behind the military industrial complex, so America’s very good at creating- … to the flamethrowers.
Plus the incredible engineering behind the military industrial complex, so America’s very good at creating- … to the flamethrowers.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
The, the technologies- … of war, and so the lofty goals combined with just a lot of profit that could be made on- … the technologies of war creates a very difficult situation to navigate, where the gap naturally widens.
The, the technologies- … of war, and so the lofty goals combined with just a lot of profit that could be made on- … the technologies of war creates a very difficult situation to navigate, where the gap naturally widens.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. I don’t think most of the world even believes, you know, what American leaders say their goals are, especially when it comes to, like, war. Like spreading democracy? No, really? I remember when they were trying to convince me, us, that the invasion of Afghanistan was a feminist war.
Yeah. I don’t think most of the world even believes, you know, what American leaders say their goals are, especially when it comes to, like, war. Like spreading democracy? No, really? I remember when they were trying to convince me, us, that the invasion of Afghanistan was a feminist war.
Lex Fridman
Oh, that was a thing, huh?
Oh, that was a thing, huh?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, yes. They were to liberate the women from the burqas or whatever, and, like, the news was just flooded with, like, how terrible women have it in Afghanistan. It’s like, you’re really trying to persuade me that that’s why you’re sending armed for- like… Anyway.
Oh, yes. They were to liberate the women from the burqas or whatever, and, like, the news was just flooded with, like, how terrible women have it in Afghanistan. It’s like, you’re really trying to persuade me that that’s why you’re sending armed for- like… Anyway.
Lex Fridman
I think there’s a lot, a lot of wake-up calls about the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, where people realized that there is that gap between the rhetoric and the action. And I mean, that’s how, because of a lot of people waking up to that, they create pressure on the government to close that gap. And that’s- … how we kind of navigate this- … complicated world, but it’s a costly one. I mean, these, these were extremely costly wars- … on every front, on every measure.
I think there’s a lot, a lot of wake-up calls about the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, where people realized that there is that gap between the rhetoric and the action. And I mean, that’s how, because of a lot of people waking up to that, they create pressure on the government to close that gap. And that’s- … how we kind of navigate this- … complicated world, but it’s a costly one. I mean, these, these were extremely costly wars- … on every front, on every measure.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yep, but the same lesson was learned in, like, the Vietnam War, and that was such a disaster that essentially they had to switch to– to abandon the conscript army, switch to a professional army. And, like, it took them so long to be able to, like, wage, you know, these empire wars again because of the sheer damage that the Vietnam War did to the credibility of the military leadership in the country, right? This never happens in, like, this doesn’t happen in, in Constantinople. I can lose a– You can be criticized for losing a war. That’s, that’s one thing, right? But that you’re using the army to do some, like… You know. No.
Yep, but the same lesson was learned in, like, the Vietnam War, and that was such a disaster that essentially they had to switch to– to abandon the conscript army, switch to a professional army. And, like, it took them so long to be able to, like, wage, you know, these empire wars again because of the sheer damage that the Vietnam War did to the credibility of the military leadership in the country, right? This never happens in, like, this doesn’t happen in, in Constantinople. I can lose a– You can be criticized for losing a war. That’s, that’s one thing, right? But that you’re using the army to do some, like… You know. No.
Lex Fridman
Some of this does have to do with the functioning of how democracy works, the temporary nature of the leaderships, and that they’re very- … short-sighted because of the nature of the elected position or the executive.
Some of this does have to do with the functioning of how democracy works, the temporary nature of the leaderships, and that they’re very- … short-sighted because of the nature of the elected position or the executive.
Anthony Kaldellis
Executive.
Executive.
Lex Fridman
I mean, that’s what we’re trying to figure out as a human civilization, how to do this for, in this particular case, the democracy thing.
I mean, that’s what we’re trying to figure out as a human civilization, how to do this for, in this particular case, the democracy thing.
Anthony Kaldellis
There’s no right answer, and by the way, I don’t wanna be ruled by kings or monarchs or emperors either. So it’s like I wouldn’t necessarily support that. I’m, I’m, I’m not advocating here for anything. I’m just trying to explain. But you’re exactly right. You know, we, we want democracy. We want leaders whom we can eject every four or five years- … which includes sometimes their, their, you know, teams of experts and policy designers and whatever, and that comes at a cost too.
There’s no right answer, and by the way, I don’t wanna be ruled by kings or monarchs or emperors either. So it’s like I wouldn’t necessarily support that. I’m, I’m, I’m not advocating here for anything. I’m just trying to explain. But you’re exactly right. You know, we, we want democracy. We want leaders whom we can eject every four or five years- … which includes sometimes their, their, you know, teams of experts and policy designers and whatever, and that comes at a cost too.
Lex Fridman
So you, you said that, you know, the Roman Empire, maybe ancient Greece, maybe the societies before that, and now societies after that, the society we live in are very different. And so applying the lessons of history, you have to be careful doing so. But are there things that are the same with us humans? So of everything you’ve studied across hundreds of years and centuries, are there aspects of human nature that kind of persist?
So you, you said that, you know, the Roman Empire, maybe ancient Greece, maybe the societies before that, and now societies after that, the society we live in are very different. And so applying the lessons of history, you have to be careful doing so. But are there things that are the same with us humans? So of everything you’ve studied across hundreds of years and centuries, are there aspects of human nature that kind of persist?
Anthony Kaldellis
So look, intellectually, I have gone through periods when, like when I was a grad student, this was kind of when postmodernism, what we might call loosely, was kind of alive and well and— had not yet been kicked in the pants.
So look, intellectually, I have gone through periods when, like when I was a grad student, this was kind of when postmodernism, what we might call loosely, was kind of alive and well and— had not yet been kicked in the pants.
Anthony Kaldellis
It was very common to find colleagues who did not believe that there was such a thing as, let’s say, human nature. In other words, that, let’s say, the parameters of human psychology are, you know, yes, there’s considerable variation, but they’re within a certain set of norms. Like it’s not— we’re, we’re not gonna behave like different species. And they did not believe that there was such a thing. In other words, that all of human history is essentially a series of incommensurate slices of difference, right? That you just couldn’t go from one to the next. And I think it’s a very problematic view for all kinds of reasons, like how small do you slice these slices? I mean, it… And no, I’m with Thucydides on this one—
It was very common to find colleagues who did not believe that there was such a thing as, let’s say, human nature. In other words, that, let’s say, the parameters of human psychology are, you know, yes, there’s considerable variation, but they’re within a certain set of norms. Like it’s not— we’re, we’re not gonna behave like different species. And they did not believe that there was such a thing. In other words, that all of human history is essentially a series of incommensurate slices of difference, right? That you just couldn’t go from one to the next. And I think it’s a very problematic view for all kinds of reasons, like how small do you slice these slices? I mean, it… And no, I’m with Thucydides on this one—
Anthony Kaldellis
… who says that, you know, more or less human beings are gonna, more or less, they’re going to act— right? They love, and they hate, and they have ambitions, and they’re incompetent, and, you know, you find the whole range of, you know, the whole gamut of diversity— … Pretty much in every, in any group of about 20 or 30 people, you’re gonna find the same kinds of types. Now, culture then comes in and, you know, tweaks things in all kinds of weird ways, and that’s, as a historian, what I like to study. I like just how the culture will modify, will set the dials, right? But that the dials go from one to 10, most people— … it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.
… who says that, you know, more or less human beings are gonna, more or less, they’re going to act— right? They love, and they hate, and they have ambitions, and they’re incompetent, and, you know, you find the whole range of, you know, the whole gamut of diversity— … Pretty much in every, in any group of about 20 or 30 people, you’re gonna find the same kinds of types. Now, culture then comes in and, you know, tweaks things in all kinds of weird ways, and that’s, as a historian, what I like to study. I like just how the culture will modify, will set the dials, right? But that the dials go from one to 10, most people— … it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.
Lex Fridman
But every once in a while, there’ll be a few folks who come along, whether it’s Steve Jobs with a turtleneck or some guy with a weird mustache or with a funny hat, and those can turn the tides of history.
But every once in a while, there’ll be a few folks who come along, whether it’s Steve Jobs with a turtleneck or some guy with a weird mustache or with a funny hat, and those can turn the tides of history.
Anthony Kaldellis
I think so. Occasionally, yes.
I think so. Occasionally, yes.
Lex Fridman
But they’re just ultra skilled at the right time— … at the right moment.
But they’re just ultra skilled at the right time— … at the right moment.
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, I believe that too. Oh, yeah. In other words, I don’t– I also don’t think that cultural systems or ideologies are so effectively totalitarian that they sort of colonize the mind of every person. And so everyone in a culture is just like a clone. No, you, you encounter this sometimes in, in historical scholarship. And, no, I think people can sometimes just think for themselves, or they can think outside the box, and they can do all kinds of things. And I always wanna keep my mind open to that possibility when I’m encountering historical agents. Yeah.
Oh, I believe that too. Oh, yeah. In other words, I don’t– I also don’t think that cultural systems or ideologies are so effectively totalitarian that they sort of colonize the mind of every person. And so everyone in a culture is just like a clone. No, you, you encounter this sometimes in, in historical scholarship. And, no, I think people can sometimes just think for themselves, or they can think outside the box, and they can do all kinds of things. And I always wanna keep my mind open to that possibility when I’m encountering historical agents. Yeah.
Lex Fridman
So just because you’ve seen this grand history, I apologize for the ridiculous question, but if we look at the entirety of Earth, and we fast-forward a million years from now—
So just because you’ve seen this grand history, I apologize for the ridiculous question, but if we look at the entirety of Earth, and we fast-forward a million years from now—
Anthony Kaldellis
Oof
Oof
Lex Fridman
… and the, and the history of life on Earth is written, do you think we’re at the very beginning of human history? Or are we in the middle, or are we close to the end?
… and the, and the history of life on Earth is written, do you think we’re at the very beginning of human history? Or are we in the middle, or are we close to the end?
Anthony Kaldellis
A million years from now. I mean, I can’t project or predict anything like a year from now. And I’ve become actually increasingly skeptical that I can do so at least. However, so I don’t know about beginning, middle, and end. It’s easier to think in terms of like, like numbered phases. Like significantly different phases of human history. And I would say we’re probably in the third. I think there’ve only been three phases. The first one being sort of hunter-gatherer period, which- … that lasted for the majority of human history so far. Right? Then there’s the agricultural revolution, basically. And this is when you start to produce surpluses that create more complex societies. And we’re now living through a technological– first industrial, now, you know-
A million years from now. I mean, I can’t project or predict anything like a year from now. And I’ve become actually increasingly skeptical that I can do so at least. However, so I don’t know about beginning, middle, and end. It’s easier to think in terms of like, like numbered phases. Like significantly different phases of human history. And I would say we’re probably in the third. I think there’ve only been three phases. The first one being sort of hunter-gatherer period, which- … that lasted for the majority of human history so far. Right? Then there’s the agricultural revolution, basically. And this is when you start to produce surpluses that create more complex societies. And we’re now living through a technological– first industrial, now, you know-
Lex Fridman
Yeah. You can throw it all in the same bucket
Yeah. You can throw it all in the same bucket
Anthony Kaldellis
… all kinds of tech-
… all kinds of tech-
Lex Fridman
Industrial, technological.
Industrial, technological.
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah. Industrial, technological. Which is modifying the parameters of what it is that human beings can do and possibly be. And who knows where this will go. But I see these as very distinct in many ways. It’s all human beings-
Yeah. Industrial, technological. Which is modifying the parameters of what it is that human beings can do and possibly be. And who knows where this will go. But I see these as very distinct in many ways. It’s all human beings-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s all humans.
Yeah, it’s all humans.
Anthony Kaldellis
… but, but very different contexts.
… but, but very different contexts.
Lex Fridman
But they’re almost modifying themselves. So the question is, is there a fourth? Is there going to be a f-
But they’re almost modifying themselves. So the question is, is there a fourth? Is there going to be a f-
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, I’m pretty sure there will be.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure there will be.
Lex Fridman
And what does that look like, and is it– When they look back at the third, would they still see us as the same as them, or would it be something completely different?
And what does that look like, and is it– When they look back at the third, would they still see us as the same as them, or would it be something completely different?
Anthony Kaldellis
Oh, no. I mean, we look back at the, you know, Romans or the Greeks or, like, any period in history, and we’re like, “Yeah, no, I see what you’re doing there. You’re doing it with the, you know, the technological capabilities that you had at that time. You’re doing it with the materials that you had. But I see what you’re doing. Yeah.” You’ve got, you’ve got families, and you’ve got armies, and you’ve got, you know, you bury your dead, and you, you know…
Oh, no. I mean, we look back at the, you know, Romans or the Greeks or, like, any period in history, and we’re like, “Yeah, no, I see what you’re doing there. You’re doing it with the, you know, the technological capabilities that you had at that time. You’re doing it with the materials that you had. But I see what you’re doing. Yeah.” You’ve got, you’ve got families, and you’ve got armies, and you’ve got, you know, you bury your dead, and you, you know…
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. But now we’re increasingly actually having the tools and technology to modify, to, like, deeply modify what it means to be human. Genetic engineering, brain-computer interfaces. As we understand the brain more, we can modify things, expand completely. Plus artificial intelligence can expand the knowledge base and the intelligence of the human mind. Unless we figure out the human mind is actually incredibly special to the degree where it’s- At least with the tools we have this century, we cannot accomplish, we cannot achieve the level-
Mm-hmm. But now we’re increasingly actually having the tools and technology to modify, to, like, deeply modify what it means to be human. Genetic engineering, brain-computer interfaces. As we understand the brain more, we can modify things, expand completely. Plus artificial intelligence can expand the knowledge base and the intelligence of the human mind. Unless we figure out the human mind is actually incredibly special to the degree where it’s- At least with the tools we have this century, we cannot accomplish, we cannot achieve the level-
Lex Fridman
… of intelligence that– general intelligence that humans have. Or one of the things we might figure out in stage four of this long history is that the thing that makes humans special is not intelligence. It’s not any of the things we kind of value each other by. It’s actually consciousness, and consciousness is the thing that is very difficult to engineer. And so that’s the common thing from the hunter-gatherers to before the Industrial Revolution and after, is we’re still the same. We still feel like something to be alive, and that’s maybe an important component of what makes us fall in love with each other or fear each other or suffer and all the full range of the human condition, the human experience.
… of intelligence that– general intelligence that humans have. Or one of the things we might figure out in stage four of this long history is that the thing that makes humans special is not intelligence. It’s not any of the things we kind of value each other by. It’s actually consciousness, and consciousness is the thing that is very difficult to engineer. And so that’s the common thing from the hunter-gatherers to before the Industrial Revolution and after, is we’re still the same. We still feel like something to be alive, and that’s maybe an important component of what makes us fall in love with each other or fear each other or suffer and all the full range of the human condition, the human experience.
Lex Fridman
Maybe even technology cannot, cannot replicate that, cannot modify that. Maybe that’s what we learn. Or very possibly we destroy this whole thing. ‘Cause now for the first time in human history, we have the tools-
Maybe even technology cannot, cannot replicate that, cannot modify that. Maybe that’s what we learn. Or very possibly we destroy this whole thing. ‘Cause now for the first time in human history, we have the tools-
Anthony Kaldellis
Yeah, yeah, we have-
Yeah, yeah, we have-
Lex Fridman
… unfortunately, to destroy everything.
… unfortunately, to destroy everything.
Anthony Kaldellis
This is all very eloquent. I mean, after so many hours of my rambling about the medieval Roman Empire, you’re– Yeah. I’m impressed.
This is all very eloquent. I mean, after so many hours of my rambling about the medieval Roman Empire, you’re– Yeah. I’m impressed.
Lex Fridman
Okay. What gives you hope about this whole thing, about the future of human civilization?
Okay. What gives you hope about this whole thing, about the future of human civilization?
Anthony Kaldellis
Look, there are a lot of challenges, right, that we face and we talk about them a lot. As a historian, I see other periods that were far, far more difficult when people could have far more easily have given up hope, and sometimes did. But I don’t think we’re in one of those… Like, there are some major issues like the uncertain future of technologies, what they might do, exactly what you were talking about. I think they’re solvable problems to a certain degree. Like, if we can rein in some elites, a lot of these problems can be fixed, and that’s not like a super difficult… I mean, it’s difficult, but it’s not, like, impossible.
Look, there are a lot of challenges, right, that we face and we talk about them a lot. As a historian, I see other periods that were far, far more difficult when people could have far more easily have given up hope, and sometimes did. But I don’t think we’re in one of those… Like, there are some major issues like the uncertain future of technologies, what they might do, exactly what you were talking about. I think they’re solvable problems to a certain degree. Like, if we can rein in some elites, a lot of these problems can be fixed, and that’s not like a super difficult… I mean, it’s difficult, but it’s not, like, impossible.
Anthony Kaldellis
Look, so I, I grew up during the Cold War. Let’s just take the ’80s, for example. And in the ’80s, like, there was a pervasive sense that nuclear war could happen at any time and just annihilate everything, and we lived under that. If you look at the popular culture of the ’80s, it’s, like, all, like, upbeat and cheerful and naive and- … like, there was just no correlation. And then you move into the ’90s, and the Cold War is over, and everyone’s all depressed. The music gets all, like, whiny, and it’s like, “What happened?” There’s just no correlation. Anyway, I just think that the, the, it’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness or, you know-
Look, so I, I grew up during the Cold War. Let’s just take the ’80s, for example. And in the ’80s, like, there was a pervasive sense that nuclear war could happen at any time and just annihilate everything, and we lived under that. If you look at the popular culture of the ’80s, it’s, like, all, like, upbeat and cheerful and naive and- … like, there was just no correlation. And then you move into the ’90s, and the Cold War is over, and everyone’s all depressed. The music gets all, like, whiny, and it’s like, “What happened?” There’s just no correlation. Anyway, I just think that the, the, it’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness or, you know-
Anthony Kaldellis
… Despair doesn’t always match with, like, if you look at the situation objectively. I mean, yeah, it can be pretty bad. But there’s so much that’s happening that is good- … all the time, so.
… Despair doesn’t always match with, like, if you look at the situation objectively. I mean, yeah, it can be pretty bad. But there’s so much that’s happening that is good- … all the time, so.
Lex Fridman
I think this period of human history will be– ’cause we’ve talked about the ups and downs of the Roman Empire. I think unquestionably, this period in history, the 20th, the, the late 20th century and the 21st century will be seen as the flourishing of humans. So if we actually just wake up- … it’s like what everything around us, by most measures of human flourishing- … we’re doing pretty well.
I think this period of human history will be– ’cause we’ve talked about the ups and downs of the Roman Empire. I think unquestionably, this period in history, the 20th, the, the late 20th century and the 21st century will be seen as the flourishing of humans. So if we actually just wake up- … it’s like what everything around us, by most measures of human flourishing- … we’re doing pretty well.
Anthony Kaldellis
The amount of, like, sheer misery is probably objectively decreasing every year. Now, you know, we’re also creating problems, yes, that will cause misery down the road. Yes. But overall, I don’t see a reason to despair and not have hope.
The amount of, like, sheer misery is probably objectively decreasing every year. Now, you know, we’re also creating problems, yes, that will cause misery down the road. Yes. But overall, I don’t see a reason to despair and not have hope.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. We’re doing okay.
Yeah. We’re doing okay.
Anthony Kaldellis
We can do better. Let’s do better. But yeah.
We can do better. Let’s do better. But yeah.
Lex Fridman
That’s the… Let’s do better. Well, Anthony, this was an incredible conversation. Thank you for all the amazing work you do and for the whirlwind journey through such a fascinating part of human history. This was fun. Thank you for talking today.
That’s the… Let’s do better. Well, Anthony, this was an incredible conversation. Thank you for all the amazing work you do and for the whirlwind journey through such a fascinating part of human history. This was fun. Thank you for talking today.
Anthony Kaldellis
It was a pleasure to be here, and thank you for, not just for inviting me, I mean, this is probably the largest audience, you know, I’ve ever spoken to but also just for giving my field and this civilization that I study the opportunity to be seen and heard from more people. I think that’s very important. You’ve done a real service here, so I wanna thank you for that.
It was a pleasure to be here, and thank you for, not just for inviting me, I mean, this is probably the largest audience, you know, I’ve ever spoken to but also just for giving my field and this civilization that I study the opportunity to be seen and heard from more people. I think that’s very important. You’ve done a real service here, so I wanna thank you for that.
Lex Fridman
Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Anthony Kaldellis. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Benjamin Franklin. “A great empire, like a great cake, is most easily diminished at the edges.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Anthony Kaldellis. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Benjamin Franklin. “A great empire, like a great cake, is most easily diminished at the edges.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
Transcript for Biggest Mysteries in Physics: Antimatter, Dark Energy & ToE – Don Lincoln | Lex Fridman Podcast #497
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #497 with Don Lincoln.
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Table of Contents
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- 0:00 – Introduction
- 0:49 – Unifying the laws of nature
- 15:20 – Einstein, special relativity, and general relativity
- 32:27 – Electroweak force
- 44:09 – How particle colliders work
- 1:02:12 – Higgs boson discovery
- 1:12:32 – Theory of everything
- 1:42:17 – Physics of empty space
- 1:49:41 – Antimatter
- 2:10:31 – Dark energy
- 2:14:20 – Dark matter
- 2:42:56 – Future of physics
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Don Lincoln, a particle physicist at Fermilab, who has spent decades working at the frontier of high energy physics. This was a mind-blowing and inspiring conversation. Don turned out to be one of my favorite people to talk to about physics. Truly a unique mind with that Richard Feynman ability of taking very complicated ideas and explaining them simply, without losing any of the essential, brilliant insights at the core of those ideas. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find ways to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Don Lincoln.
The following is a conversation with Don Lincoln, a particle physicist at Fermilab, who has spent decades working at the frontier of high energy physics. This was a mind-blowing and inspiring conversation. Don turned out to be one of my favorite people to talk to about physics. Truly a unique mind with that Richard Feynman ability of taking very complicated ideas and explaining them simply, without losing any of the essential, brilliant insights at the core of those ideas. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find ways to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Don Lincoln.
Unifying the laws of nature
Lex Fridman
In describing the search for theory of everything in physics, you describe the history of physics can be told effectively as a kind of history of unifications. There’s this centuries-long quest to show that these distinct phenomena are actually linked by some unified underlying principles. Even starting with Newton, that you can think of the effort of physics as one is trying to unify- … the laws of nature. So I was wondering if we could talk through the history of unification-
In describing the search for theory of everything in physics, you describe the history of physics can be told effectively as a kind of history of unifications. There’s this centuries-long quest to show that these distinct phenomena are actually linked by some unified underlying principles. Even starting with Newton, that you can think of the effort of physics as one is trying to unify- … the laws of nature. So I was wondering if we could talk through the history of unification-
Don Lincoln
Sure
Sure
Lex Fridman
… that lens of physics.
… that lens of physics.
Don Lincoln
There are, of course, lots of different ways to do physics, but the way that I would say that particle physicists, cosmologists do is they are trying to really find basically the underlying principles that govern the laws of nature. If we go back, say, to the, I don’t know, 1650s or so, you’re the most brilliant person around, and you’ve noticed two things. One you’ve noticed is that when you trip, you fall. That is the nature of gravity that we all experience day to day. But then there’s sort of astronomy, where you look out at the heavens and you see the stars march across the sky. You see the planets move through the stars. And there, that seems to have absolutely nothing to do with what happens when you drop your sandwich and the dog grabs it from you. So-
There are, of course, lots of different ways to do physics, but the way that I would say that particle physicists, cosmologists do is they are trying to really find basically the underlying principles that govern the laws of nature. If we go back, say, to the, I don’t know, 1650s or so, you’re the most brilliant person around, and you’ve noticed two things. One you’ve noticed is that when you trip, you fall. That is the nature of gravity that we all experience day to day. But then there’s sort of astronomy, where you look out at the heavens and you see the stars march across the sky. You see the planets move through the stars. And there, that seems to have absolutely nothing to do with what happens when you drop your sandwich and the dog grabs it from you. So-
Don Lincoln
… the brilliant thing was when Newton looked at that and he thought about, maybe the moon is falling, but it’s missing the Earth. So what we had is that in maybe 1650, you had what we might call the laws of celestial gravity, the gravity that governs the heavens, and terrestrial gravity, the gravity that is here on Earth. Now, we don’t think of it that way anymore. We think of it as just gravity. But at that time, that wasn’t at all obvious. And in fact, if you look in the books, Newton’s theory is Newton’s law of universal gravity. The universal is there, and the reason is, is because he realized these two things that seemed to have nothing to do with one another were indeed one and the same. I mean, this is absolutely brilliant.
… the brilliant thing was when Newton looked at that and he thought about, maybe the moon is falling, but it’s missing the Earth. So what we had is that in maybe 1650, you had what we might call the laws of celestial gravity, the gravity that governs the heavens, and terrestrial gravity, the gravity that is here on Earth. Now, we don’t think of it that way anymore. We think of it as just gravity. But at that time, that wasn’t at all obvious. And in fact, if you look in the books, Newton’s theory is Newton’s law of universal gravity. The universal is there, and the reason is, is because he realized these two things that seemed to have nothing to do with one another were indeed one and the same. I mean, this is absolutely brilliant.
Don Lincoln
I mean, Newton is arguably one of the most brilliant humans of which I’m ever aware. But at any rate, it is the first sort of easily to describe unification of physics that you can state in a way that sort of makes sense to modern- … Humans. I mean, you can go back farther than that, where people are talking about chemistry, the nature of atoms. You go back to Democritus, who was wrong about very many things, but the idea that there was a smallest particulate form of matter is right. So it’s kind of funny. You talk– You, you read the chemistry books, and they say that the idea of atoms goes back to Democritus, and, you know, he, his idea was that, like there was a smallest atom of oil, which was smooth, and it was smooth, of course, because, well, oil is smooth.
I mean, Newton is arguably one of the most brilliant humans of which I’m ever aware. But at any rate, it is the first sort of easily to describe unification of physics that you can state in a way that sort of makes sense to modern- … Humans. I mean, you can go back farther than that, where people are talking about chemistry, the nature of atoms. You go back to Democritus, who was wrong about very many things, but the idea that there was a smallest particulate form of matter is right. So it’s kind of funny. You talk– You, you read the chemistry books, and they say that the idea of atoms goes back to Democritus, and, you know, he, his idea was that, like there was a smallest atom of oil, which was smooth, and it was smooth, of course, because, well, oil is smooth.
Don Lincoln
There was a smallest atom of vinegar because vinegar is tart and it pricks your tongue-
There was a smallest atom of vinegar because vinegar is tart and it pricks your tongue-
Don Lincoln
… so therefore, atoms were little sharp, pointy things. And so he was wrong about a lot, but he was right about the idea that there was a small particle, and, and we now know a very– we have a very different concept than he did. So you can go back farther than that. But getting the unification, there are more examples. For instance, if you go back to, say, 1830 or so, scientists were trying to understand electricity, for instance. And there was a lot going on. People really understood things. But at the time, you would have two phenomena that are familiar to us now. One is a magnet, which, you know, at the time, mostly magnets were, were simply little pieces of iron that had been magnetized and they could stick to steel.
… so therefore, atoms were little sharp, pointy things. And so he was wrong about a lot, but he was right about the idea that there was a small particle, and, and we now know a very– we have a very different concept than he did. So you can go back farther than that. But getting the unification, there are more examples. For instance, if you go back to, say, 1830 or so, scientists were trying to understand electricity, for instance. And there was a lot going on. People really understood things. But at the time, you would have two phenomena that are familiar to us now. One is a magnet, which, you know, at the time, mostly magnets were, were simply little pieces of iron that had been magnetized and they could stick to steel.
Don Lincoln
And then you had electricity, which was at the time they were generating little sparks that they could play and have fun with, or more broadly, a lightning bolt blazing across the sky. And so when you think about this, that lightning bolt and that little magnet seem to be really unrelated.
And then you had electricity, which was at the time they were generating little sparks that they could play and have fun with, or more broadly, a lightning bolt blazing across the sky. And so when you think about this, that lightning bolt and that little magnet seem to be really unrelated.
Don Lincoln
But over the 1800s, a number of scientists were exploring little aspects of it. What happens when you run electricity through a wire? It seems to make a magnetic field. You know, they– There was a whole bunch of experiments and there were a lot of names. But in about the 1860s or so, James Clerk Maxwell took all of those ideas that had been percolating around for the previous 50 years and wrote his laws of electromagnetism, and they’re really fascinating. If you look at the laws of electromagnetism, they are– they’re differential equations or integral equations. But basically, what they say is on one side, you have a bunch of terms that have electricity in them, and then you have equals on the other side, a magnetism thing.
But over the 1800s, a number of scientists were exploring little aspects of it. What happens when you run electricity through a wire? It seems to make a magnetic field. You know, they– There was a whole bunch of experiments and there were a lot of names. But in about the 1860s or so, James Clerk Maxwell took all of those ideas that had been percolating around for the previous 50 years and wrote his laws of electromagnetism, and they’re really fascinating. If you look at the laws of electromagnetism, they are– they’re differential equations or integral equations. But basically, what they say is on one side, you have a bunch of terms that have electricity in them, and then you have equals on the other side, a magnetism thing.
Don Lincoln
So forgetting all of the mathematical symbols, you have electricity side equals a magnetism side. Electricity equals magnetism. And that is a staggering concept, the fact that these two things, a lightning bolt and the magnet that holds your kids’ art to the refrigerator, are one and the same. And this was another case where electricity and magnetism became unified into electromagnetism. So now we have two examples: one, gravity being unified, terrestrial and celestial gravity, and then electricity and magnetism. So I’ll tell you about some more in a moment, but one thing that’s kind of important because the goal is, of course, to unify everything.
So forgetting all of the mathematical symbols, you have electricity side equals a magnetism side. Electricity equals magnetism. And that is a staggering concept, the fact that these two things, a lightning bolt and the magnet that holds your kids’ art to the refrigerator, are one and the same. And this was another case where electricity and magnetism became unified into electromagnetism. So now we have two examples: one, gravity being unified, terrestrial and celestial gravity, and then electricity and magnetism. So I’ll tell you about some more in a moment, but one thing that’s kind of important because the goal is, of course, to unify everything.
Don Lincoln
That if I could do what I want to do, I would have some unified theory that would explain all the behavior of all energy, matter, space, and time, which is a grand goal.
That if I could do what I want to do, I would have some unified theory that would explain all the behavior of all energy, matter, space, and time, which is a grand goal.
Lex Fridman
And we should say that maybe one of the goals of science more broadly, outside of physics even, is to construct models that can generalize the world. So if you look at Darwinian evolution- … that was a very beautiful theory that captures another layer of reality of, like, how this particular thing that we see here on Earth happens. So when we talk about theory of everything in physics, that’s capturing a different layer of abstraction about the functioning of the universe.
And we should say that maybe one of the goals of science more broadly, outside of physics even, is to construct models that can generalize the world. So if you look at Darwinian evolution- … that was a very beautiful theory that captures another layer of reality of, like, how this particular thing that we see here on Earth happens. So when we talk about theory of everything in physics, that’s capturing a different layer of abstraction about the functioning of the universe.
Don Lincoln
Right. The whole Darwinian evolution, the fact that our genetics has significant overlap with the genetics of a banana is, is pretty staggering, is astonishing- that that works. So that is amazing. But for at least the class of scientists that I am, what we think of is, well, sure, biology is interesting and all, but when you get right down to it, it’s caused– whatever happens in biology is caused by the movement of molecules. And then you say, “Well, that’s great and all, but molecules, they do what they do because they’re made of atoms.”
Right. The whole Darwinian evolution, the fact that our genetics has significant overlap with the genetics of a banana is, is pretty staggering, is astonishing- that that works. So that is amazing. But for at least the class of scientists that I am, what we think of is, well, sure, biology is interesting and all, but when you get right down to it, it’s caused– whatever happens in biology is caused by the movement of molecules. And then you say, “Well, that’s great and all, but molecules, they do what they do because they’re made of atoms.”
Don Lincoln
And then the next step is, well, atoms, that’s great, but atoms work the way they do because of the nucleus and the electrons, and then the nucleus is protons and neutrons. And so there are those of us, myself included, who want to dig down to the very, very bottom and find out what is the smallest building block of nature from which all of these other far more complex and interesting and abstract things are. But what is at the very, very bottom? And also, that’s great, but if you know what the smallest building blocks are, that doesn’t tell you the story. It’s like having a whole bunch of Legos, but not knowing how to put them together. You also need to know how they interact, how they work, and so that’s why we study forces.
And then the next step is, well, atoms, that’s great, but atoms work the way they do because of the nucleus and the electrons, and then the nucleus is protons and neutrons. And so there are those of us, myself included, who want to dig down to the very, very bottom and find out what is the smallest building block of nature from which all of these other far more complex and interesting and abstract things are. But what is at the very, very bottom? And also, that’s great, but if you know what the smallest building blocks are, that doesn’t tell you the story. It’s like having a whole bunch of Legos, but not knowing how to put them together. You also need to know how they interact, how they work, and so that’s why we study forces.
Don Lincoln
So there are the various subatomic forces of which we’re familiar and for instance, electricity and magnetism are components of electromagnetism, which then governs the behavior of things like– This is amazing. Electromagnetism explains, of course, electricity, magnetism, but it explains how light works. It explains how much of chemistry works. So electromagnetism, 1860 or ’70, the wonderful thing about that is if you take Maxwell’s equations and you apply a little bit of calculus, it’s very easy to see that the laws of electricity and the laws of magnetism combined together make what’s called a wave equation, which that shows that these electric and magnetic fields oscillate.
So there are the various subatomic forces of which we’re familiar and for instance, electricity and magnetism are components of electromagnetism, which then governs the behavior of things like– This is amazing. Electromagnetism explains, of course, electricity, magnetism, but it explains how light works. It explains how much of chemistry works. So electromagnetism, 1860 or ’70, the wonderful thing about that is if you take Maxwell’s equations and you apply a little bit of calculus, it’s very easy to see that the laws of electricity and the laws of magnetism combined together make what’s called a wave equation, which that shows that these electric and magnetic fields oscillate.
Don Lincoln
They vary, and if you have something that’s varied, that’s a wave, and the wave then moves. And if you do the math, you find out that the speed at which these waves move is the speed of light. And so people said, “Wow, the speed of light comes out of those equations.” And that had to be, I think, very persuasive. And of course, electromagnetism also plays a really significant role in chemistry because after all, atoms are held together by electromagnetic forces. There’s more to how atoms work. There is all the quantum mechanics stuff. But if you did not have electromagnetism, or if electromagnetism was very different, then atoms would be very different. So it plays a very big role in holding us together.
They vary, and if you have something that’s varied, that’s a wave, and the wave then moves. And if you do the math, you find out that the speed at which these waves move is the speed of light. And so people said, “Wow, the speed of light comes out of those equations.” And that had to be, I think, very persuasive. And of course, electromagnetism also plays a really significant role in chemistry because after all, atoms are held together by electromagnetic forces. There’s more to how atoms work. There is all the quantum mechanics stuff. But if you did not have electromagnetism, or if electromagnetism was very different, then atoms would be very different. So it plays a very big role in holding us together.
Don Lincoln
So it’s a staggering advance in science to have a good behavior on that. And of course, being able to tame electromagnetism is why people can hear you when you do your podcast because through the miracles of the internet just– or just electricity running the computers. I mean, this is a case, if I can get on a small soapbox, where people back then said, “Well, why are you messing around with magnets and sparks?” And who cares? Well, that very fundamental digging into the laws of nature has spinoffs, and it has spinoffs– one of the big spinoffs is our entire technological society.
So it’s a staggering advance in science to have a good behavior on that. And of course, being able to tame electromagnetism is why people can hear you when you do your podcast because through the miracles of the internet just– or just electricity running the computers. I mean, this is a case, if I can get on a small soapbox, where people back then said, “Well, why are you messing around with magnets and sparks?” And who cares? Well, that very fundamental digging into the laws of nature has spinoffs, and it has spinoffs– one of the big spinoffs is our entire technological society.
Don Lincoln
Without being able to govern electricity, we’d still be farmers and shoemakers in cities. We certainly would not have everything that we do, so off my soapbox. But it’s really a lovely thing to show how this, this digging into deep, fundamental, not understood, mysterious things can, a hundred or two hundred years later, transform the world.
Without being able to govern electricity, we’d still be farmers and shoemakers in cities. We certainly would not have everything that we do, so off my soapbox. But it’s really a lovely thing to show how this, this digging into deep, fundamental, not understood, mysterious things can, a hundred or two hundred years later, transform the world.
Don Lincoln
And the type of science I do now, people often ask, “Well, what good is knowing about how the inside of atoms work, how the inside of quarks work?” And I don’t know the answer to that but just being a little more pragmatic, if I go back, say, a hundred years, where people were trying to understand how the protons and neutrons inside atoms held together, how they split, how they– how you could combine them and so forth, this has led to nuclear power. Now, whatever you think about nuclear power, and some people like it and some people don’t, but it is powerful. It will generate energy for humanity, and it may be that is the path that we take as we move away from digging fossil fuels out of the ground. Humanity is going to need power no matter what.
And the type of science I do now, people often ask, “Well, what good is knowing about how the inside of atoms work, how the inside of quarks work?” And I don’t know the answer to that but just being a little more pragmatic, if I go back, say, a hundred years, where people were trying to understand how the protons and neutrons inside atoms held together, how they split, how they– how you could combine them and so forth, this has led to nuclear power. Now, whatever you think about nuclear power, and some people like it and some people don’t, but it is powerful. It will generate energy for humanity, and it may be that is the path that we take as we move away from digging fossil fuels out of the ground. Humanity is going to need power no matter what.
Don Lincoln
Nobody is going to go back to the way things were in the 1700s. And one enormous source of energy that is there for us to take if we so choose is the modification of the nucleus of atoms. Seemed to have absolutely nothing to do with anything, and yet it provides humanity with an opportunity, which of course requires that we think carefully of how we do that and, and if we want to, but it gives us something that we didn’t have before.
Nobody is going to go back to the way things were in the 1700s. And one enormous source of energy that is there for us to take if we so choose is the modification of the nucleus of atoms. Seemed to have absolutely nothing to do with anything, and yet it provides humanity with an opportunity, which of course requires that we think carefully of how we do that and, and if we want to, but it gives us something that we didn’t have before.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s very clear that nuclear fusion and nuclear fission will unlock huge amount of energy that’s required for a civilization to flourish, but that’s almost like near term. Longer term, you can think about things like we’ll talk about dark energy crisis- … and antimatter. Maybe if you figure out some of the mysteries around antimatter, that too would lead to energy sources, how to produce energy. That too might lead to counterintuitive propulsion systems-
Yeah, it’s very clear that nuclear fusion and nuclear fission will unlock huge amount of energy that’s required for a civilization to flourish, but that’s almost like near term. Longer term, you can think about things like we’ll talk about dark energy crisis- … and antimatter. Maybe if you figure out some of the mysteries around antimatter, that too would lead to energy sources, how to produce energy. That too might lead to counterintuitive propulsion systems-
Lex Fridman
… for us humans to travel through the universe. Now, right now it seems far-fetched, too expensive, too complicated, too difficult, but breakthroughs in the fundamentals theoretical physics might lead us to unlock some incredible energy sources, incredible technologies that will allow humans to explore the universe. And of course, we should also mention that as always with technology, it’s a double-edged sword. It will most likely lead to the development of more dangerous weapons or- … other sources of harm. And then we as a civilization kinda have to walk that line and hope we figure out how to do more good than bad with the technologies we build.
… for us humans to travel through the universe. Now, right now it seems far-fetched, too expensive, too complicated, too difficult, but breakthroughs in the fundamentals theoretical physics might lead us to unlock some incredible energy sources, incredible technologies that will allow humans to explore the universe. And of course, we should also mention that as always with technology, it’s a double-edged sword. It will most likely lead to the development of more dangerous weapons or- … other sources of harm. And then we as a civilization kinda have to walk that line and hope we figure out how to do more good than bad with the technologies we build.
Don Lincoln
Right. But we have to really remember, while people worry about nuclear weapons, which are admittedly very dangerous, and even nuclear power, which has waste that has to be dealt with, what science is doing is working out, finding power that nature has presented to us. This is not new. Fire is like that too. Fire can burn down your house or it can cook your steak. Power is like that, and that’s just something that we have to understand as humanity, and that’s why this needs to be a– you know, when we talk about science, it has to be a broad conversation by all of society because what scientists can do is figure out how the world works. Society has to figure out how we wish to apply that or not apply that.
Right. But we have to really remember, while people worry about nuclear weapons, which are admittedly very dangerous, and even nuclear power, which has waste that has to be dealt with, what science is doing is working out, finding power that nature has presented to us. This is not new. Fire is like that too. Fire can burn down your house or it can cook your steak. Power is like that, and that’s just something that we have to understand as humanity, and that’s why this needs to be a– you know, when we talk about science, it has to be a broad conversation by all of society because what scientists can do is figure out how the world works. Society has to figure out how we wish to apply that or not apply that.
Lex Fridman
Also, solving the mysteries and the puzzles of the universe in itself is effing awesome.
Also, solving the mysteries and the puzzles of the universe in itself is effing awesome.
Don Lincoln
It is. It is.
It is. It is.
Lex Fridman
So that means that that’s the thing that makes us human in part is looking at a thing and saying, “How does this work?” And then together a bunch of apes get together, like, poke the thing, kinda shake the thing. And then over time you have rockets going all into space. You build roads and bridges. You build the internet. Anyway, so we talked about Newton, we talked about Maxwell. That takes us into 20th century in terms of unification. There’s a guy named Einstein- … on whom you wrote a book, who did- … quite a lot of progress on the effort of unification.
So that means that that’s the thing that makes us human in part is looking at a thing and saying, “How does this work?” And then together a bunch of apes get together, like, poke the thing, kinda shake the thing. And then over time you have rockets going all into space. You build roads and bridges. You build the internet. Anyway, so we talked about Newton, we talked about Maxwell. That takes us into 20th century in terms of unification. There’s a guy named Einstein- … on whom you wrote a book, who did- … quite a lot of progress on the effort of unification.
Einstein, special relativity, and general relativity
Don Lincoln
Sure. So Einstein, he’s a pretty amazing guy. In 1905, he had his miracle year where he wrote multiple papers. The one that most people know about is special relativity, where he showed something that makes no sense to anybody who’s not really dug into it very hard, and that is that two people experience time differently. Time, you know, is a fascinating thing. We don’t really understand what time is, which is weird. You’d think that that’d be something we’d understand very well, but we really don’t. We know a lot about it, but really understanding it, not so much. But Newton thought that time was just universal for everyone, so my time, your time, some person’s time on Mars or on Alpha Centauri, everybody experienced time the same.
Sure. So Einstein, he’s a pretty amazing guy. In 1905, he had his miracle year where he wrote multiple papers. The one that most people know about is special relativity, where he showed something that makes no sense to anybody who’s not really dug into it very hard, and that is that two people experience time differently. Time, you know, is a fascinating thing. We don’t really understand what time is, which is weird. You’d think that that’d be something we’d understand very well, but we really don’t. We know a lot about it, but really understanding it, not so much. But Newton thought that time was just universal for everyone, so my time, your time, some person’s time on Mars or on Alpha Centauri, everybody experienced time the same.
Don Lincoln
What Einstein showed was that that wasn’t the case, that different people moving at different speeds with respect to one another experience time differently, which is absolutely a mind-blowing concept. Now, most people think that Einstein then said, well, he invented spacetime, that space and time are the same thing, and he was behind that. But that actual insight came from one of his teachers, a guy by the name of Minkowski, who looked at Einstein’s equations. Minkowski was a little bit more mathematically inclined than Einstein, and he saw that if you look at the equations, you have basically one person’s space and time equals some numbers times this person’s space and time. And so that’s kind of a staggering thing.
What Einstein showed was that that wasn’t the case, that different people moving at different speeds with respect to one another experience time differently, which is absolutely a mind-blowing concept. Now, most people think that Einstein then said, well, he invented spacetime, that space and time are the same thing, and he was behind that. But that actual insight came from one of his teachers, a guy by the name of Minkowski, who looked at Einstein’s equations. Minkowski was a little bit more mathematically inclined than Einstein, and he saw that if you look at the equations, you have basically one person’s space and time equals some numbers times this person’s space and time. And so that’s kind of a staggering thing.
Don Lincoln
So that is where Einstein and Minkowski really did this unbelievable concept that space and time are actually pretty much the same thing. That runs afoul of our understanding of how the world works because time just moves, it’s continuous. We know what it is at a visceral level and an experiential level. We might not understand it at a formal level, but we know what time is. It’s what keeps, makes today today and not yesterday or tomorrow. Space is a little different. You can walk somewhere, you can walk back, you can move around. You have more freedom to move in space than you have to move in time. You can always move forward in time. It’s just moving backwards that turns out to be a little more difficult.
So that is where Einstein and Minkowski really did this unbelievable concept that space and time are actually pretty much the same thing. That runs afoul of our understanding of how the world works because time just moves, it’s continuous. We know what it is at a visceral level and an experiential level. We might not understand it at a formal level, but we know what time is. It’s what keeps, makes today today and not yesterday or tomorrow. Space is a little different. You can walk somewhere, you can walk back, you can move around. You have more freedom to move in space than you have to move in time. You can always move forward in time. It’s just moving backwards that turns out to be a little more difficult.
Don Lincoln
But yeah, Einstein’s understanding that that is the case, it caused everybody to think about the world very, very differently, and that was in 1908 when Minkowski really laid it out in a strict spacetime.
But yeah, Einstein’s understanding that that is the case, it caused everybody to think about the world very, very differently, and that was in 1908 when Minkowski really laid it out in a strict spacetime.
Lex Fridman
And that also led to the work on special relativity, led to the speed limit, the speed of light.
And that also led to the work on special relativity, led to the speed limit, the speed of light.
Don Lincoln
Well, it was a premise. He had two premises. One was that the laws of nature are the same for everybody, so if you’re moving at some speed, or if I’m moving at some speed, I can say I’m not moving and saying you’re moving at some speed. That’s not controversial. That is what we call Galilean relativity. It’s from hundreds of years ago. But what Einstein said that was controversial was that everybody measures that the speed of light is the same. Irrespective of how we’re moving with respect to each other, you’ll measure the speed of light to be a number, I’ll measure the speed of light to a number, and that’s very, very different from what Newton would’ve said or Galileo or any of the old guys.
Well, it was a premise. He had two premises. One was that the laws of nature are the same for everybody, so if you’re moving at some speed, or if I’m moving at some speed, I can say I’m not moving and saying you’re moving at some speed. That’s not controversial. That is what we call Galilean relativity. It’s from hundreds of years ago. But what Einstein said that was controversial was that everybody measures that the speed of light is the same. Irrespective of how we’re moving with respect to each other, you’ll measure the speed of light to be a number, I’ll measure the speed of light to a number, and that’s very, very different from what Newton would’ve said or Galileo or any of the old guys.
Don Lincoln
And it was taking those two things together that caused all of the weirdnesses of special relativity. Now, you could then very easily say, well, that second premise that everybody measures the speed of light to the same is just dumb, and y- it– that, you know, you could test that. So that’s where testing relativity comes in. And Einstein’s equations, which include those two assumptions, it predicts the behavior of everything perfectly well. Now we’ve actually measured done experiments where we can say that the speed of light is the same for everybody. That’s not how that’s been in the beginning. It was really that assumption leads to predictions. The predictions are true, so the assumption is true.
And it was taking those two things together that caused all of the weirdnesses of special relativity. Now, you could then very easily say, well, that second premise that everybody measures the speed of light to the same is just dumb, and y- it– that, you know, you could test that. So that’s where testing relativity comes in. And Einstein’s equations, which include those two assumptions, it predicts the behavior of everything perfectly well. Now we’ve actually measured done experiments where we can say that the speed of light is the same for everybody. That’s not how that’s been in the beginning. It was really that assumption leads to predictions. The predictions are true, so the assumption is true.
Don Lincoln
Now, there is a– for, for those people, for your viewers who wanna say, “Well, how do you measure that the speed of light is the same for everyone?” The particle physicists do this, and the way you do this is the following: There are some subatomic particles that when they decay, they emit light. That’s their decay product. And so you collide two things together so you know when the particle was created, then you have surround your collision point by a detector, and you measure how long it takes for light to get to your detector, and by God, it’s the speed of light, which it should be. However, sometimes in these collisions, some of these subatomic particles you make are coming out at very high speed.
Now, there is a– for, for those people, for your viewers who wanna say, “Well, how do you measure that the speed of light is the same for everyone?” The particle physicists do this, and the way you do this is the following: There are some subatomic particles that when they decay, they emit light. That’s their decay product. And so you collide two things together so you know when the particle was created, then you have surround your collision point by a detector, and you measure how long it takes for light to get to your detector, and by God, it’s the speed of light, which it should be. However, sometimes in these collisions, some of these subatomic particles you make are coming out at very high speed.
Don Lincoln
They might be coming out at ninety-five or ninety-seven or very large fraction of the speed of light, and then they decay into photons. And so you measure how long it takes for the photon to get to your detector, and it says it’s– light travels at the speed of light. Now, if it were that if Einstein’s conjecture was incorrect, you’d have a particle coming out at near the speed of light, it would be decaying into a particle traveling at the speed of light, then that particle should have traveled at, say, two times the speed of light or something like that, so it should have taken half as much time to get to the detector, but it doesn’t.
They might be coming out at ninety-five or ninety-seven or very large fraction of the speed of light, and then they decay into photons. And so you measure how long it takes for the photon to get to your detector, and it says it’s– light travels at the speed of light. Now, if it were that if Einstein’s conjecture was incorrect, you’d have a particle coming out at near the speed of light, it would be decaying into a particle traveling at the speed of light, then that particle should have traveled at, say, two times the speed of light or something like that, so it should have taken half as much time to get to the detector, but it doesn’t.
Don Lincoln
So this is a hard, serious measurement that shows that something, you know, we, we can measure the speed at which light comes out of this stationary created particle, and it’s the speed of light. Then we can measure what the speed is of it coming out of something that’s moving, and it’s still the speed of light. So that is an actual measurement, but that is not something that was possible in Einstein’s day- … but it is now.
So this is a hard, serious measurement that shows that something, you know, we, we can measure the speed at which light comes out of this stationary created particle, and it’s the speed of light. Then we can measure what the speed is of it coming out of something that’s moving, and it’s still the speed of light. So that is an actual measurement, but that is not something that was possible in Einstein’s day- … but it is now.
Lex Fridman
Just to take a small tangent, how weird is it in the full ranking of weirdness that is physics, how weird is it that there’s that speed limit of the speed of light?
Just to take a small tangent, how weird is it in the full ranking of weirdness that is physics, how weird is it that there’s that speed limit of the speed of light?
Don Lincoln
Well, I have to tell you, when I first encountered this, it’s pretty freaking weird. It, like, pegs the weird meter. But as you become more familiar with it, as you become more, more comfortable with the idea, the thing to remember is the speed of light; it’s the speed of light through spacetime. Once you embrace that, that makes a whole ton of sense. It all of a sudden makes everything fall much more into place. I think that there is an ultimate speed isn’t that shocking. It just simply says that it’s a property of space in the same way that there is, you know, space can transmit a certain strength electric field. It can support certain things.
Well, I have to tell you, when I first encountered this, it’s pretty freaking weird. It, like, pegs the weird meter. But as you become more familiar with it, as you become more, more comfortable with the idea, the thing to remember is the speed of light; it’s the speed of light through spacetime. Once you embrace that, that makes a whole ton of sense. It all of a sudden makes everything fall much more into place. I think that there is an ultimate speed isn’t that shocking. It just simply says that it’s a property of space in the same way that there is, you know, space can transmit a certain strength electric field. It can support certain things.
Don Lincoln
Whatever space is, and we don’t know what space is, but whatever it is, it has the capability of transmitting these things at that one speed through space or time, and everything else comes from our insisting that we keep space and time different. That’s, that’s how I view it, and at least for me, once I accepted that, it all became very comfortable.
Whatever space is, and we don’t know what space is, but whatever it is, it has the capability of transmitting these things at that one speed through space or time, and everything else comes from our insisting that we keep space and time different. That’s, that’s how I view it, and at least for me, once I accepted that, it all became very comfortable.
Lex Fridman
So the nature of my question actually here- … that will apply over and over is trying to empathize, trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the people before space and time are unified- … into spacetime and really experience and think through how difficult of a leap is that.
So the nature of my question actually here- … that will apply over and over is trying to empathize, trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the people before space and time are unified- … into spacetime and really experience and think through how difficult of a leap is that.
Don Lincoln
Huge.
Huge.
Lex Fridman
The reason I sort of say that is we are now in the modern day in the twenty-first century, and of course, we’re gonna have to make leaps like that in our future. So what are the unifications we’re not seeing in front of our eyes? So for example, there’s so many examples through your work, through your lectures of Paul Dirac taking antimatter seriously. Looking at what the math shows and saying, “I really think this thing exists.” I mean, it just sounds insane.
The reason I sort of say that is we are now in the modern day in the twenty-first century, and of course, we’re gonna have to make leaps like that in our future. So what are the unifications we’re not seeing in front of our eyes? So for example, there’s so many examples through your work, through your lectures of Paul Dirac taking antimatter seriously. Looking at what the math shows and saying, “I really think this thing exists.” I mean, it just sounds insane.
Don Lincoln
It does.
It does.
Lex Fridman
And so I think this is a good warm-up. The space-time unification- … is a good warm-up as we march through the twentieth century ’cause it gets, in my view at least, weirder and weirder, even with Einstein himself.
And so I think this is a good warm-up. The space-time unification- … is a good warm-up as we march through the twentieth century ’cause it gets, in my view at least, weirder and weirder, even with Einstein himself.
Don Lincoln
Well, let me give you an even more basic example, sodium and chloride. Sodium is an explosive metal. You put it in water and it’s kind of neat. You put it in water, and it just, it doesn’t quite explode, but it gets hot, and it pops around. Chlorine, it’s a gas. It’s going to kill you. So these two things are deadly. They’re awful. And yet when you mix them, you put it on your food at night. It’s salt, right? And so this is a case where this whole, A, unification and B, this deeper understanding, in this case of chemistry, of how two things that are dangerous can be brought together and turned into something not only innocuous, but necessary for human life. And so this is not unusual, what you’re describing.
Well, let me give you an even more basic example, sodium and chloride. Sodium is an explosive metal. You put it in water and it’s kind of neat. You put it in water, and it just, it doesn’t quite explode, but it gets hot, and it pops around. Chlorine, it’s a gas. It’s going to kill you. So these two things are deadly. They’re awful. And yet when you mix them, you put it on your food at night. It’s salt, right? And so this is a case where this whole, A, unification and B, this deeper understanding, in this case of chemistry, of how two things that are dangerous can be brought together and turned into something not only innocuous, but necessary for human life. And so this is not unusual, what you’re describing.
Don Lincoln
I mean, when you think about it, forget about everything else, just the fact that, you know, we tell little kids that the world is made of atoms. Now, that’s crazy. Most people have never seen atoms, and yet nobody really doubts it anymore. And I think it’s just a case of familiarity, and then the culture slowly accepts it, and it’s then, it’s real even without the evidence. In fact, one of the courses you described there how we know what we know, I think that’s a valid question. How do we know there are atoms? And of course, there are ways we do.
I mean, when you think about it, forget about everything else, just the fact that, you know, we tell little kids that the world is made of atoms. Now, that’s crazy. Most people have never seen atoms, and yet nobody really doubts it anymore. And I think it’s just a case of familiarity, and then the culture slowly accepts it, and it’s then, it’s real even without the evidence. In fact, one of the courses you described there how we know what we know, I think that’s a valid question. How do we know there are atoms? And of course, there are ways we do.
Lex Fridman
And by the way, on that front, I would love to go through how we know the building blocks in the universe as we march towards quarks. That, in the course that you mentioned, is one of the most fascinating things of this philosophy of atoms being around for a very long time. Then you concretize and you actually can prove or have strong observations that indicate that there is atoms, and then there is a nucleus, there is electrons, there is photons, there is quarks, and I mean, it gets weirder and weirder, and now we’re facing the mystery is there’s building blocks even smaller than that.
And by the way, on that front, I would love to go through how we know the building blocks in the universe as we march towards quarks. That, in the course that you mentioned, is one of the most fascinating things of this philosophy of atoms being around for a very long time. Then you concretize and you actually can prove or have strong observations that indicate that there is atoms, and then there is a nucleus, there is electrons, there is photons, there is quarks, and I mean, it gets weirder and weirder, and now we’re facing the mystery is there’s building blocks even smaller than that.
Lex Fridman
But anyway, Einstein, turns out, didn’t just do special relativity. By the way, I really think he deserves three Nobel Prizes. He got it for photoelectric effect. The fact that he didn’t get it for general relativity is a crime against humanity. I don’t understand. Obviously should have gotten it for general relativity and special relativity. I mean, I think special relativity is separate from general relativity in terms as far as Nobel Prizes go. So general relativity is another unification.
But anyway, Einstein, turns out, didn’t just do special relativity. By the way, I really think he deserves three Nobel Prizes. He got it for photoelectric effect. The fact that he didn’t get it for general relativity is a crime against humanity. I don’t understand. Obviously should have gotten it for general relativity and special relativity. I mean, I think special relativity is separate from general relativity in terms as far as Nobel Prizes go. So general relativity is another unification.
Don Lincoln
Yes, that’s right. What Einstein realized was that if you were in a rocket ship and the rocket ship was a very quiet rocket ship and it was accelerating, it would feel like you were experiencing gravity. And so as you say, it’s one of his happiest moments when he realized that acceleration and gravity feel very much the same. What I’m impressed by is that idea, which is already a pretty neat idea, somehow led him to take his space-time idea, take this acceleration gravity idea, and realize that he could describe gravity as the bending of space-time. Space-time being constant like east, west, north, south, that’s already hard enough. But now he’s saying, “Well, you know, take your map and crinkle it and bend it,” and so forth, and that’s gravity. That is a staggering, mind-blowing idea.
Yes, that’s right. What Einstein realized was that if you were in a rocket ship and the rocket ship was a very quiet rocket ship and it was accelerating, it would feel like you were experiencing gravity. And so as you say, it’s one of his happiest moments when he realized that acceleration and gravity feel very much the same. What I’m impressed by is that idea, which is already a pretty neat idea, somehow led him to take his space-time idea, take this acceleration gravity idea, and realize that he could describe gravity as the bending of space-time. Space-time being constant like east, west, north, south, that’s already hard enough. But now he’s saying, “Well, you know, take your map and crinkle it and bend it,” and so forth, and that’s gravity. That is a staggering, mind-blowing idea.
Lex Fridman
I guess, I wonder if you can comment on what do you think is the idea generation process that leads to that. So probably an Einstein case has to start with what if gravity is itself space-time geometry? You have to have a thought like that, right?
I guess, I wonder if you can comment on what do you think is the idea generation process that leads to that. So probably an Einstein case has to start with what if gravity is itself space-time geometry? You have to have a thought like that, right?
Don Lincoln
Yes, I think so. There’s a lot about science. There’s, of course, knowing what went before. There is knowing the mathematics that allows you to figure out the implications of your theory. There is the discipline to argue with yourself and other people because most ideas are wrong. But then there’s what you just described, that intuitive spark, and that is something that is very, very difficult to create. There’s a reason that we venerate these people, is because it is an unusual feature, and most people only have that aha moment once in their lifetime, if they have it at all.
Yes, I think so. There’s a lot about science. There’s, of course, knowing what went before. There is knowing the mathematics that allows you to figure out the implications of your theory. There is the discipline to argue with yourself and other people because most ideas are wrong. But then there’s what you just described, that intuitive spark, and that is something that is very, very difficult to create. There’s a reason that we venerate these people, is because it is an unusual feature, and most people only have that aha moment once in their lifetime, if they have it at all.
Don Lincoln
And then there’s a tricky business because I’m sure you do, and I get a lot of letters from creative thinkers who don’t have all of the history and the mathematical discipline and the self-critique that’s necessary. And so they come up with these ideas, and often it’s easy to see where they just don’t play out. So in order to be that person who changes the way we see the world, ideas themselves are not enough. These creative ideas, that’s not enough. You need it with the discipline and the critique, and it’s that amalgam of those things that you know, make you a genius that history remembers.
And then there’s a tricky business because I’m sure you do, and I get a lot of letters from creative thinkers who don’t have all of the history and the mathematical discipline and the self-critique that’s necessary. And so they come up with these ideas, and often it’s easy to see where they just don’t play out. So in order to be that person who changes the way we see the world, ideas themselves are not enough. These creative ideas, that’s not enough. You need it with the discipline and the critique, and it’s that amalgam of those things that you know, make you a genius that history remembers.
Lex Fridman
But it’s hard to know. In a field of people you might be tempted to call crazy, there could be geniuses there, and it’s hard to know which is which. We should mention that Einstein himself couldn’t see the genius in quantum mechanics initially, couldn’t see the correctness, I should say. So he could see the insanity of gravity bending space-time, but quantum mechanics was too weird for Einstein.
But it’s hard to know. In a field of people you might be tempted to call crazy, there could be geniuses there, and it’s hard to know which is which. We should mention that Einstein himself couldn’t see the genius in quantum mechanics initially, couldn’t see the correctness, I should say. So he could see the insanity of gravity bending space-time, but quantum mechanics was too weird for Einstein.
Don Lincoln
In all fairness, it’s weird for me too. But…
In all fairness, it’s weird for me too. But…
Lex Fridman
Okay.
Okay.
Don Lincoln
… but the thing is, even while that is true, and Einstein maybe spent the last few years of his life trying to, to blend electricity and magnetism and gravity in a, a single thing, and he was unsuccessful, but he still was a very, very valuable critic-
… but the thing is, even while that is true, and Einstein maybe spent the last few years of his life trying to, to blend electricity and magnetism and gravity in a, a single thing, and he was unsuccessful, but he still was a very, very valuable critic-
Don Lincoln
… of quantum mechanics. It’s not that he didn’t understand it, because he did understand it. He thought about the implications and all this quantum entanglement business, you know, not all of it. But he was responsible for saying, “Well, if you’re right, then this.” And of course, then people went out and found out that, that Einstein’s implication of quantum mechanics was real, and so they could say, “See? Quantum mechanics is real.” So, you know, he was thinking deeply about it, and he was doing exactly that thing I said. There’s that spark idea, but there’s that critique idea.
… of quantum mechanics. It’s not that he didn’t understand it, because he did understand it. He thought about the implications and all this quantum entanglement business, you know, not all of it. But he was responsible for saying, “Well, if you’re right, then this.” And of course, then people went out and found out that, that Einstein’s implication of quantum mechanics was real, and so they could say, “See? Quantum mechanics is real.” So, you know, he was thinking deeply about it, and he was doing exactly that thing I said. There’s that spark idea, but there’s that critique idea.
Don Lincoln
And if you’re able to critique an idea, you might kill it. And that is—it’s always depressing when I have this brilliant idea and it gets killed, but it’s better to be killed than to keep it around and waste time on it. And so he was, in that case, not generating the aha. What he was saying is, “All right, let’s take your aha. Let’s see it’s right. What does it mean? It means this.” That allows people to go test it, and so he was contributing very crucially to that other part of scientific advancement, which is not just the aha moment, but the beat it to death, test it-
And if you’re able to critique an idea, you might kill it. And that is—it’s always depressing when I have this brilliant idea and it gets killed, but it’s better to be killed than to keep it around and waste time on it. And so he was, in that case, not generating the aha. What he was saying is, “All right, let’s take your aha. Let’s see it’s right. What does it mean? It means this.” That allows people to go test it, and so he was contributing very crucially to that other part of scientific advancement, which is not just the aha moment, but the beat it to death, test it-
Don Lincoln
… critique it, and make sure it’s real. And it’s only after all of that has been done that you really assure you’re right. And that’s why science is such a powerful tool. It is that combative, just downright kinda jerky critique that most people don’t like. They don’t like people saying, “Your ideas, you know, might be wrong.” But that is—it is crucial. It is a crucial part of the scientific process.
… critique it, and make sure it’s real. And it’s only after all of that has been done that you really assure you’re right. And that’s why science is such a powerful tool. It is that combative, just downright kinda jerky critique that most people don’t like. They don’t like people saying, “Your ideas, you know, might be wrong.” But that is—it is crucial. It is a crucial part of the scientific process.
Lex Fridman
Plus, there’s that quote on the other side of it that I’ve heard you mention, which is, you know, “I believe your idea is crazy, but is it crazy enough?” Was that Niels Bohr?
Plus, there’s that quote on the other side of it that I’ve heard you mention, which is, you know, “I believe your idea is crazy, but is it crazy enough?” Was that Niels Bohr?
Don Lincoln
I love that one. Yes, yes, we all agree that your idea is crazy, but is it crazy enough?
I love that one. Yes, yes, we all agree that your idea is crazy, but is it crazy enough?
Lex Fridman
And there is some degree of taking those leaps of crazy, but it has to be backed with rigor.
And there is some degree of taking those leaps of crazy, but it has to be backed with rigor.
Electroweak force
Don Lincoln
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
And the unifications continue that as we take steps towards the Standard Model- … which is such an incredible part of physics in the 20th century. So can you describe that unification?
And the unifications continue that as we take steps towards the Standard Model- … which is such an incredible part of physics in the 20th century. So can you describe that unification?
Don Lincoln
So, you know, we’re sort of jumping forward here now to the 1930s or thereabout. And at, by that time, people had realized that there are four distinct forces that do not seem to be connected. One is gravity, two is electromagnetism, and those are things people are relatively familiar with. But there are two other forces that only have any real importance inside the nucleus of atoms, which is why most people have no experience with them. One is the strong nuclear force, which holds the nucleus of the atoms together, and the other one is what we call the weak nuclear force, which is responsible for some types of, of radioactivity. And since most people don’t play around with nuclei, and most people don’t play around with radioactivity, they don’t know what that is.
So, you know, we’re sort of jumping forward here now to the 1930s or thereabout. And at, by that time, people had realized that there are four distinct forces that do not seem to be connected. One is gravity, two is electromagnetism, and those are things people are relatively familiar with. But there are two other forces that only have any real importance inside the nucleus of atoms, which is why most people have no experience with them. One is the strong nuclear force, which holds the nucleus of the atoms together, and the other one is what we call the weak nuclear force, which is responsible for some types of, of radioactivity. And since most people don’t play around with nuclei, and most people don’t play around with radioactivity, they don’t know what that is.
Don Lincoln
But by the ’30s, scientists had done enough experiments, done enough theorizing to, to say that there were these four forces, and that was already a triumph. I mean, we, in our goal for a theory of everything, we’d like to think that there is one force, which is what we’re talking about, the unification. Maybe these four forces are, are just different ways of looking at a single underlying force. But in the ’30s, that’s where we were. There were the four forces. So we move ahead, and in the late ’50s and early ’60s, some people were thinking that maybe the weak nuclear force and electromagnetism actually were the same. So they were working on trying to bring together these two forces to show that they’re connected. And it came true.
But by the ’30s, scientists had done enough experiments, done enough theorizing to, to say that there were these four forces, and that was already a triumph. I mean, we, in our goal for a theory of everything, we’d like to think that there is one force, which is what we’re talking about, the unification. Maybe these four forces are, are just different ways of looking at a single underlying force. But in the ’30s, that’s where we were. There were the four forces. So we move ahead, and in the late ’50s and early ’60s, some people were thinking that maybe the weak nuclear force and electromagnetism actually were the same. So they were working on trying to bring together these two forces to show that they’re connected. And it came true.
Don Lincoln
They were able to show that electricity and magnetism were actually two different facets of a single force that we now call the electroweak force. Now, the story that you’re told in articles about this, about what people have called the Higgs boson or the God particle, the story is very, very simplified because in 1964, there were three groups with six individuals who came up with important papers talking about what’s called the Higgs field. And I’ll get back to what that is in a minute, but the Higgs field is important. But it wasn’t until 1967, so three years later, that Steven Weinberg and some others actually unified electromagnetism and the weak force.
They were able to show that electricity and magnetism were actually two different facets of a single force that we now call the electroweak force. Now, the story that you’re told in articles about this, about what people have called the Higgs boson or the God particle, the story is very, very simplified because in 1964, there were three groups with six individuals who came up with important papers talking about what’s called the Higgs field. And I’ll get back to what that is in a minute, but the Higgs field is important. But it wasn’t until 1967, so three years later, that Steven Weinberg and some others actually unified electromagnetism and the weak force.
Lex Fridman
Sheldon Glashow, Abdus Salam, and Steven Weinberg successfully unified electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force, showing that at high energies—
Sheldon Glashow, Abdus Salam, and Steven Weinberg successfully unified electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force, showing that at high energies—
Don Lincoln
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
… These two forces were merged into a single electroweak force.
… These two forces were merged into a single electroweak force.
Don Lincoln
Right, and that was in ’67, all right? Everybody talks about this thing happening in ’64, but it really wasn’t. It happened over quite a few years actually. But all right, so now let’s— what you said is true. So Weinberg, Glashow, and Salam showed that electromagnetism and the weak force at high energies were the same. There was a problem, however, and the problem is that electromagnetism has an infinite range and we know that because we can see stars that are millions of light-years away. I mean, that shows you that the range of that force is essentially infinite. The weak force, however, basically becomes nonexistent on distances much smaller than the size of a proton.
Right, and that was in ’67, all right? Everybody talks about this thing happening in ’64, but it really wasn’t. It happened over quite a few years actually. But all right, so now let’s— what you said is true. So Weinberg, Glashow, and Salam showed that electromagnetism and the weak force at high energies were the same. There was a problem, however, and the problem is that electromagnetism has an infinite range and we know that because we can see stars that are millions of light-years away. I mean, that shows you that the range of that force is essentially infinite. The weak force, however, basically becomes nonexistent on distances much smaller than the size of a proton.
Don Lincoln
So that, you know, to say, “Oh, they’re the same,” and yet one can reach across the universe and one can’t reach out of an atom, well, that’s just dumb. I mean, the obvious thought here is, well, we just proved that that whole idea is stupid, so throw it away. Ridiculous. And that is where these ideas from 1964 came in and saved the day. So how can it be true that the electroweak force is real and electromagnetism and the weak force act so differently?
So that, you know, to say, “Oh, they’re the same,” and yet one can reach across the universe and one can’t reach out of an atom, well, that’s just dumb. I mean, the obvious thought here is, well, we just proved that that whole idea is stupid, so throw it away. Ridiculous. And that is where these ideas from 1964 came in and saved the day. So how can it be true that the electroweak force is real and electromagnetism and the weak force act so differently?
Don Lincoln
The way that could happen is if these forces were transmitted by a particle moving from one subatomic particle to the other. In the case of electromagnetism, it’s the photon. In the case of the weak force, we call them now the W and Z particles. So the idea is that Higgs and his colleagues came up with is saying, “All right, electroweak force is real. The way we make it so that there is now an electromagnetic force and a weak force is the force-carrying particle of electromagnetism has no mass. The force-carrying particle of the weak force has a mass.” And so what was done is a field was postulated that there was this additional field that was kind of distinct from this electroweak field, and we call it the Higgs field. And the Higgs field permeates all of space.
The way that could happen is if these forces were transmitted by a particle moving from one subatomic particle to the other. In the case of electromagnetism, it’s the photon. In the case of the weak force, we call them now the W and Z particles. So the idea is that Higgs and his colleagues came up with is saying, “All right, electroweak force is real. The way we make it so that there is now an electromagnetic force and a weak force is the force-carrying particle of electromagnetism has no mass. The force-carrying particle of the weak force has a mass.” And so what was done is a field was postulated that there was this additional field that was kind of distinct from this electroweak field, and we call it the Higgs field. And the Higgs field permeates all of space.
Don Lincoln
And here’s the kicker, some particles interact with the field, and some particles don’t interact with the field. The ones that interact with the field get mass, and the ones that don’t interact with the field don’t have mass. And so that’s the idea, is that the Higgs field gives the weak force particles mass. However, the photon laughs at the Higgs field, doesn’t see it, and it has no mass.
And here’s the kicker, some particles interact with the field, and some particles don’t interact with the field. The ones that interact with the field get mass, and the ones that don’t interact with the field don’t have mass. And so that’s the idea, is that the Higgs field gives the weak force particles mass. However, the photon laughs at the Higgs field, doesn’t see it, and it has no mass.
Lex Fridman
And I should say here, going to Perplexity, the big-picture view, the Higgs field is the quantum field that fills all of space and gives many elementary particles, just as you’re saying, their mass through their interaction with it. The Higgs boson is the particle associated with ripples or excitations of this field. In modern particle physics, every type of particle corresponds to a field that exists everywhere. The Higgs field is one such scalar field, meaning at each point in space, it has a single numerical value rather than a direction. The Higgs field differs from most other fields because even in empty space—empty in quotes, by the way, empty space—its average value is not zero. This non-zero vacuum value is what enables it to endow particles with mass.
And I should say here, going to Perplexity, the big-picture view, the Higgs field is the quantum field that fills all of space and gives many elementary particles, just as you’re saying, their mass through their interaction with it. The Higgs boson is the particle associated with ripples or excitations of this field. In modern particle physics, every type of particle corresponds to a field that exists everywhere. The Higgs field is one such scalar field, meaning at each point in space, it has a single numerical value rather than a direction. The Higgs field differs from most other fields because even in empty space—empty in quotes, by the way, empty space—its average value is not zero. This non-zero vacuum value is what enables it to endow particles with mass.
Don Lincoln
Right. So let’s talk about something a little more familiar just to try and hang some intuition on those words.
Right. So let’s talk about something a little more familiar just to try and hang some intuition on those words.
Lex Fridman
Awesome.
Awesome.
Don Lincoln
All right, so right in front of us, there is a gravitational field. Now- … you can’t see it, but right there. Right there. Check it out. If I were to take something, a pen or whatever, and put it there, it feels a force, and it falls. Very insightful, I know. So we have the gravity field, and we have the pen that has a mass, and the mass and the gravity field interact, and it drops. Now— … if we had another-
All right, so right in front of us, there is a gravitational field. Now- … you can’t see it, but right there. Right there. Check it out. If I were to take something, a pen or whatever, and put it there, it feels a force, and it falls. Very insightful, I know. So we have the gravity field, and we have the pen that has a mass, and the mass and the gravity field interact, and it drops. Now— … if we had another-
Lex Fridman
I have a-
I have a-
Don Lincoln
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
… object for you.
… object for you.
Don Lincoln
All right, so like-
All right, so like-
Lex Fridman
Demonstration purposes. This is great.
Demonstration purposes. This is great.
Don Lincoln
Performance art. Here we go.
Performance art. Here we go.
Lex Fridman
This is great.
This is great.
Don Lincoln
This thing has mass, and we drop it. How remarkable. It falls. But when we step back and think about what really happens, it’s the mass of this thing and the interaction with this invisible field we see here. That’s what gives this weight. Now, I have this particle here that you can’t see, but it’s there. It has no mass. And I leave it there. Well, since it has no mass, it doesn’t feel gravity. It’s still floating there.
This thing has mass, and we drop it. How remarkable. It falls. But when we step back and think about what really happens, it’s the mass of this thing and the interaction with this invisible field we see here. That’s what gives this weight. Now, I have this particle here that you can’t see, but it’s there. It has no mass. And I leave it there. Well, since it has no mass, it doesn’t feel gravity. It’s still floating there.
Don Lincoln
And that is really all the Higgs field is. Some particles have effectively what you could call the Higgs charge that interacts and sees the field, and other particles don’t. And that is really what you read just basically means. Now, it’s kinda neat because in the ordinary day, there is a Higgs field right there, and the Higgs field is not zero, just like gravity is not zero, and things will get mass. But at super high energies, the Higgs field, the strength of the Higgs field goes to zero. So whether things have mass or whether they have a Higgs charge or not, they have no charge– or they have the Higgs charge, Higgs field zero, they don’t interact. It has no mass.
And that is really all the Higgs field is. Some particles have effectively what you could call the Higgs charge that interacts and sees the field, and other particles don’t. And that is really what you read just basically means. Now, it’s kinda neat because in the ordinary day, there is a Higgs field right there, and the Higgs field is not zero, just like gravity is not zero, and things will get mass. But at super high energies, the Higgs field, the strength of the Higgs field goes to zero. So whether things have mass or whether they have a Higgs charge or not, they have no charge– or they have the Higgs charge, Higgs field zero, they don’t interact. It has no mass.
Don Lincoln
So that’s kind of what Weinberg and Salam and Glashow said, is at very high energies, the Higgs field is zero. Since the Higgs field is zero, the weak force particles don’t feel mass, and therefore, they can travel at the speed of light, just like the photon does, and everything’s happy.
So that’s kind of what Weinberg and Salam and Glashow said, is at very high energies, the Higgs field is zero. Since the Higgs field is zero, the weak force particles don’t feel mass, and therefore, they can travel at the speed of light, just like the photon does, and everything’s happy.
Don Lincoln
It is when the universe cooled down. After the Big Bang, it was very hot, very high energy. Nothing had mass. The universe cooled, and at a certain temperature, what happened is the Higgs field turned on. And at the moment it turned on, it gave mass to the weak force particles, did not give mass to the photon. So that’s what we call electroweak symmetry breaking; so it’s a mouthful. But all it says is there was a moment in time early in the history of the universe at 10 to the minus 12 seconds after the Big Bang, the Higgs field turned on and particles got mass. So that’s the whole idea. So this is another really neat thing. So the electroweak symmetry theory doesn’t need Higgs because that only really applies at very, very high energies.
It is when the universe cooled down. After the Big Bang, it was very hot, very high energy. Nothing had mass. The universe cooled, and at a certain temperature, what happened is the Higgs field turned on. And at the moment it turned on, it gave mass to the weak force particles, did not give mass to the photon. So that’s what we call electroweak symmetry breaking; so it’s a mouthful. But all it says is there was a moment in time early in the history of the universe at 10 to the minus 12 seconds after the Big Bang, the Higgs field turned on and particles got mass. So that’s the whole idea. So this is another really neat thing. So the electroweak symmetry theory doesn’t need Higgs because that only really applies at very, very high energies.
Don Lincoln
But in order to make it work at low energies, you need to fix the theory, and you need to fix the theory by effectively putting a Band-Aid on the theory. Higgs theory is just a Band-Aid on top of electroweak symmetry theory, and that is the Band-Aid that fixes it because it gives mass to particles at low energy.
But in order to make it work at low energies, you need to fix the theory, and you need to fix the theory by effectively putting a Band-Aid on the theory. Higgs theory is just a Band-Aid on top of electroweak symmetry theory, and that is the Band-Aid that fixes it because it gives mass to particles at low energy.
Lex Fridman
But how does then the Higgs- this Band-Aid, the field and the Higgs boson come into play on the experimental front, on the evidence-
But how does then the Higgs- this Band-Aid, the field and the Higgs boson come into play on the experimental front, on the evidence-
Don Lincoln
Okay.
Okay.
Lex Fridman
… discovery front?
… discovery front?
Don Lincoln
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
So what is this Higgs boson thing then?
So what is this Higgs boson thing then?
Don Lincoln
Okay, excellent. So we have never seen the Higgs field. Higgs field is a hypothetical theoretical thing. But that is true of most of our fields. We’ve never seen the electromagnetic field. We’ve never seen the gravity field. We’ve seen the effect of the field. And so all of these theories are now what we call quantum field theories, and that– the whole idea of quantum fields is if you have a quantum field, that field can vibrate like a drumhead. And so it doesn’t vibrate just exactly like a drumhead, but it vibrates locally. So you can have specific localized vibrations, and those specific localized vibrations are the particles. In the electromagnetic field, the vibration is the photon. In the Higgs field, the vibration is the Higgs boson.
Okay, excellent. So we have never seen the Higgs field. Higgs field is a hypothetical theoretical thing. But that is true of most of our fields. We’ve never seen the electromagnetic field. We’ve never seen the gravity field. We’ve seen the effect of the field. And so all of these theories are now what we call quantum field theories, and that– the whole idea of quantum fields is if you have a quantum field, that field can vibrate like a drumhead. And so it doesn’t vibrate just exactly like a drumhead, but it vibrates locally. So you can have specific localized vibrations, and those specific localized vibrations are the particles. In the electromagnetic field, the vibration is the photon. In the Higgs field, the vibration is the Higgs boson.
How particle colliders work
Don Lincoln
And so what we can do is not see the field, but we can actually excite the field, make it vibrate, and detect the vibrations. So the Higgs boson idea was predicted in sixty-four. It became useful in sixty-seven, and then scientists started looking for it. So in the early 2000s, people were starting to think that we had built particle accelerators powerful enough to actually to be able to create these vibrations and detect them. So the accelerator that was working at the time was a large particle accelerator outside Chicago at Fermilab called the Tevatron.
And so what we can do is not see the field, but we can actually excite the field, make it vibrate, and detect the vibrations. So the Higgs boson idea was predicted in sixty-four. It became useful in sixty-seven, and then scientists started looking for it. So in the early 2000s, people were starting to think that we had built particle accelerators powerful enough to actually to be able to create these vibrations and detect them. So the accelerator that was working at the time was a large particle accelerator outside Chicago at Fermilab called the Tevatron.
Don Lincoln
And we were colliding protons and antimatter protons at near the speed of light at very high energy, and that was the accelerator at which the top quark was discovered in ninety-five. But we had upgraded our apparatus. We had ten times the number of collisions per second. We had slightly more energy, and we were banging the protons and the antimatter protons together, hoping that we would actually find the Higgs boson.
And we were colliding protons and antimatter protons at near the speed of light at very high energy, and that was the accelerator at which the top quark was discovered in ninety-five. But we had upgraded our apparatus. We had ten times the number of collisions per second. We had slightly more energy, and we were banging the protons and the antimatter protons together, hoping that we would actually find the Higgs boson.
Lex Fridman
Can you actually back up a little bit and look at the bigger picture? So Fermilab has this legendary accelerator that there’s also a personal story with you connected to it because, I mean, there’s a million questions I wanna ask you, and we’ll ask you about some aspects of that. So this idea of an accelerator, the design and the physics of an accelerator, how is that productive for understanding and discovering different aspects of particle physics?
Can you actually back up a little bit and look at the bigger picture? So Fermilab has this legendary accelerator that there’s also a personal story with you connected to it because, I mean, there’s a million questions I wanna ask you, and we’ll ask you about some aspects of that. So this idea of an accelerator, the design and the physics of an accelerator, how is that productive for understanding and discovering different aspects of particle physics?
Don Lincoln
Well, I’m so glad you asked . I mean, this is fascinating. All right. Everybody has heard Einstein’s equation E equals MC squared. Nobody knows what it means. Maybe they heard that energy equals mass and mass equals energy. I don’t know, you know. But they’ve heard the equation, the most famous equation in all of science. But buried inside that equation is a really thoroughly fascinating concept: that energy and matter are equivalent, and you can, in fact, convert movement energy into mass. And so this is something that we’ve known for a long time. This was predicted back in basically 1928, so a long time ago, actually almost a hundred years ago. And it is not in the slightest bit controversial. We can do this all the time.
Well, I’m so glad you asked . I mean, this is fascinating. All right. Everybody has heard Einstein’s equation E equals MC squared. Nobody knows what it means. Maybe they heard that energy equals mass and mass equals energy. I don’t know, you know. But they’ve heard the equation, the most famous equation in all of science. But buried inside that equation is a really thoroughly fascinating concept: that energy and matter are equivalent, and you can, in fact, convert movement energy into mass. And so this is something that we’ve known for a long time. This was predicted back in basically 1928, so a long time ago, actually almost a hundred years ago. And it is not in the slightest bit controversial. We can do this all the time.
Don Lincoln
So the simplest thing is to take two particles that have no structure, so, you know, the closest thing you can have to BBs that are just true mathematical BBs. If you smash those two things together, it’s coming in with a huge amount of energy from one direction, a huge amount of energy from the other direction. The directions cancel, so the net momentum, the net energy of this has no motion. So you have these two things coming in with a, you know, exactly balanced energy, and if they collide, they could stop. Well, that energy has to go somewhere, and that energy can literally create mass, create particles. Now, there are special rules about what happens. If you have two things coming together and it creates a particle, it has to create an antimatter particle to balance it.
So the simplest thing is to take two particles that have no structure, so, you know, the closest thing you can have to BBs that are just true mathematical BBs. If you smash those two things together, it’s coming in with a huge amount of energy from one direction, a huge amount of energy from the other direction. The directions cancel, so the net momentum, the net energy of this has no motion. So you have these two things coming in with a, you know, exactly balanced energy, and if they collide, they could stop. Well, that energy has to go somewhere, and that energy can literally create mass, create particles. Now, there are special rules about what happens. If you have two things coming together and it creates a particle, it has to create an antimatter particle to balance it.
Don Lincoln
That’s just kind of the rules of the laws of nature. Why is that the case? Well, we have some ideas, but in many respects, the answer is because those are the laws of the universe, and that’s the things that we try to understand.
That’s just kind of the rules of the laws of nature. Why is that the case? Well, we have some ideas, but in many respects, the answer is because those are the laws of the universe, and that’s the things that we try to understand.
Don Lincoln
But this is absolutely true. So what particle accelerators do, among other things, is simply transform energy into particles. And so basically, any particle that doesn’t exist in nature, we can make in this way. You can make the antimatter electron by taking two particles, smashing them together. The energy sits there, and it will make an electron and an antimatter electron, and it just does. And we know that. The antimatter electron was discovered in 1932. This is all pretty easy. The antimatter proton was discovered in 1955 at the Berkeley Bevatron. And so this is just what you do. You can convert energy into a matter-antimatter particle. Now, the converse goes true, and that’s something we might talk about.
But this is absolutely true. So what particle accelerators do, among other things, is simply transform energy into particles. And so basically, any particle that doesn’t exist in nature, we can make in this way. You can make the antimatter electron by taking two particles, smashing them together. The energy sits there, and it will make an electron and an antimatter electron, and it just does. And we know that. The antimatter electron was discovered in 1932. This is all pretty easy. The antimatter proton was discovered in 1955 at the Berkeley Bevatron. And so this is just what you do. You can convert energy into a matter-antimatter particle. Now, the converse goes true, and that’s something we might talk about.
Don Lincoln
You can take matter and antimatter and bring it together, and it’ll make energy. The process can go both ways. Energy can make matter and antimatter. Matter and antimatter can make energy, and this is just true. We do it all the time. There’s no question that this is the case.
You can take matter and antimatter and bring it together, and it’ll make energy. The process can go both ways. Energy can make matter and antimatter. Matter and antimatter can make energy, and this is just true. We do it all the time. There’s no question that this is the case.
Lex Fridman
And we should also mention that this is the reason why Fermilab had a nice stash of antimatter particles. So as, as a side effect, you can also collect antimatter in this kind of way.
And we should also mention that this is the reason why Fermilab had a nice stash of antimatter particles. So as, as a side effect, you can also collect antimatter in this kind of way.
Don Lincoln
Sure.
Sure.
Lex Fridman
You can produce antimatter, but it’s at an extremely costly-
You can produce antimatter, but it’s at an extremely costly-
Don Lincoln
Oh, very, very costly. In order at the Fermilab machine, we would have to smash 100,000 protons into something to make one antimatter proton. So I mean, it took some work.
Oh, very, very costly. In order at the Fermilab machine, we would have to smash 100,000 protons into something to make one antimatter proton. So I mean, it took some work.
Lex Fridman
Is there some extremely precise recipe of being able to produce particular kinds of particles and all this kind of stuff? When you smash two things together, is there like how can you control accurately which kind of particles you’re trying to produce?
Is there some extremely precise recipe of being able to produce particular kinds of particles and all this kind of stuff? When you smash two things together, is there like how can you control accurately which kind of particles you’re trying to produce?
Don Lincoln
If you wanna make antimatter electrons, you smash together energy at a certain– It’s just easier with electrons because the electrons, to the best of our knowledge, have nothing inside them, so they’re simple. They have a certain mass, and that’s that. So if you smash particles together with the right energy, you can make them very, very easily because you can– It’s like an old style radio back in the day where you had to dial it in. You could get right on the station, and you could hear the signal, and if you were off a little, it didn’t work. The problem for things like protons and so forth is they’re not point-like particles. They’re kind of like garbage cans full of stuff, and so it’s very difficult to make antimatter protons.
If you wanna make antimatter electrons, you smash together energy at a certain– It’s just easier with electrons because the electrons, to the best of our knowledge, have nothing inside them, so they’re simple. They have a certain mass, and that’s that. So if you smash particles together with the right energy, you can make them very, very easily because you can– It’s like an old style radio back in the day where you had to dial it in. You could get right on the station, and you could hear the signal, and if you were off a little, it didn’t work. The problem for things like protons and so forth is they’re not point-like particles. They’re kind of like garbage cans full of stuff, and so it’s very difficult to make antimatter protons.
Don Lincoln
Now, you can get more of them by increasing the energy at which you collide two particles together. If you’re at below a certain energy, and you say you collide two protons together at kind of low energy, you just don’t have enough energy to make an antiproton. And so it doesn’t happen. You get to a certain energy, and you can just barely make them. The more energy you collide them together, the more you make. So that is just sort of how it works. More is better.
Now, you can get more of them by increasing the energy at which you collide two particles together. If you’re at below a certain energy, and you say you collide two protons together at kind of low energy, you just don’t have enough energy to make an antiproton. And so it doesn’t happen. You get to a certain energy, and you can just barely make them. The more energy you collide them together, the more you make. So that is just sort of how it works. More is better.
Lex Fridman
And then with, with CERN, if you compare maybe CERN and Fermilab, going to Perplexity here, CERN’s accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider, LHC, is the world’s highest energy proton collider, while Fermilab’s current and planned accelerators focus on intense proton beams for neutrino physics-
And then with, with CERN, if you compare maybe CERN and Fermilab, going to Perplexity here, CERN’s accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider, LHC, is the world’s highest energy proton collider, while Fermilab’s current and planned accelerators focus on intense proton beams for neutrino physics-
Don Lincoln
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
… rather than pushing the absolute energy frontier. Absolute energy frontier meaning highest possible energy smashing of protons together.
… rather than pushing the absolute energy frontier. Absolute energy frontier meaning highest possible energy smashing of protons together.
Don Lincoln
Correct. So one, we were talking about, like, accumulating antimatter.
Correct. So one, we were talking about, like, accumulating antimatter.
Lex Fridman
Yes.
Yes.
Don Lincoln
All right? And so there, that is typically making antiprotons, as opposed to making all particles in general. So let’s focus on the antiproton side to begin with.
All right? And so there, that is typically making antiprotons, as opposed to making all particles in general. So let’s focus on the antiproton side to begin with.
Don Lincoln
All right? So Fermilab doesn’t make antiprotons anymore. We stopped making them in 2011, and it’s because we shut our big accelerator down to concentrate on a different facet of particle physics. However, at the time, we would smash protons with an energy of 120 GeV, and in that, we would make antiprotons. So that’s a ton of energy. It’s true that the CERN accelerator, the big accelerator, is now much higher energy than the Fermilab accelerator was. No problem. But that’s not how they make antiprotons. All of these big beam big laboratories, it’s not one accelerator. At Fermilab, there were five distinct accelerators, and it was basically like shifting an old standard car, ’cause you couldn’t just go zero to super speed in one accelerator.
All right? So Fermilab doesn’t make antiprotons anymore. We stopped making them in 2011, and it’s because we shut our big accelerator down to concentrate on a different facet of particle physics. However, at the time, we would smash protons with an energy of 120 GeV, and in that, we would make antiprotons. So that’s a ton of energy. It’s true that the CERN accelerator, the big accelerator, is now much higher energy than the Fermilab accelerator was. No problem. But that’s not how they make antiprotons. All of these big beam big laboratories, it’s not one accelerator. At Fermilab, there were five distinct accelerators, and it was basically like shifting an old standard car, ’cause you couldn’t just go zero to super speed in one accelerator.
Don Lincoln
You had to go from one to another, getting higher and higher. Well, at CERN, they use one of the, basically their second gear in their very big accelerator complex to make antimatter protons, and their accelerator is only 26 GeV compared to the 120 GeV at Fermilab. Fermilab’s not operating, but when it was operating, it operated at an energy about four times higher than what CERN is doing now. And why is that? Well, it’s because what CERN needs to do is to not make as many antiprotons as Fermilab did. They are doing a very different current experimental program. They’re doing a fascinating experimental program, including trying to figure out does antigravity fall up or down, which is kinda neat. And we sort of know the answer to that. That’s separate.
You had to go from one to another, getting higher and higher. Well, at CERN, they use one of the, basically their second gear in their very big accelerator complex to make antimatter protons, and their accelerator is only 26 GeV compared to the 120 GeV at Fermilab. Fermilab’s not operating, but when it was operating, it operated at an energy about four times higher than what CERN is doing now. And why is that? Well, it’s because what CERN needs to do is to not make as many antiprotons as Fermilab did. They are doing a very different current experimental program. They’re doing a fascinating experimental program, including trying to figure out does antigravity fall up or down, which is kinda neat. And we sort of know the answer to that. That’s separate.
Don Lincoln
But anyways, so getting back to the antiproton business- … while Fermilab doesn’t do it now, it was top dog. It’s not anymore. The only really big antiproton accelerator creator is a small accelerator at CERN. Okay, so that’s the antiproton thing, and if we get back to antimatter, we can talk about that- … ’cause that is way cool.
But anyways, so getting back to the antiproton business- … while Fermilab doesn’t do it now, it was top dog. It’s not anymore. The only really big antiproton accelerator creator is a small accelerator at CERN. Okay, so that’s the antiproton thing, and if we get back to antimatter, we can talk about that- … ’cause that is way cool.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, super cool.
Yeah, super cool.
Don Lincoln
But now the other side of your thing about making high-energy unknown particles, bigger is better. And it is true that the LHC is a very high-energy machine. It is about seven times more powerful in terms of energy per collision. It is also about 100 times more collisions per second than the Fermilab machine. So it is true that the LHC can make bigger, heavier particles that the old Fermilab, the Tevatron, ever could.
But now the other side of your thing about making high-energy unknown particles, bigger is better. And it is true that the LHC is a very high-energy machine. It is about seven times more powerful in terms of energy per collision. It is also about 100 times more collisions per second than the Fermilab machine. So it is true that the LHC can make bigger, heavier particles that the old Fermilab, the Tevatron, ever could.
Don Lincoln
And that is true. So if you wanna look at high-energy stuff, yeah, you go to CERN now, which is why many of my colleagues, including myself, once we had measured all of the sort of frontier measurements we thought we could make with the Fermilab accelerator, we saw this bigger, more powerful machine with seven times the energy and 100 times more collisions per second. We said, “Heck yeah, let’s go work on that.” And to give you a sense of scale, the top quark, which is the heaviest particle ever discovered, discovered at Fermilab in 1995, there were two discovery papers, and the one on which I was a co-author, we had worked for a good chunk of between six months and a year of collecting collisions, and there were a lot of collisions, and our paper had 38 top quark candidates. 38.
And that is true. So if you wanna look at high-energy stuff, yeah, you go to CERN now, which is why many of my colleagues, including myself, once we had measured all of the sort of frontier measurements we thought we could make with the Fermilab accelerator, we saw this bigger, more powerful machine with seven times the energy and 100 times more collisions per second. We said, “Heck yeah, let’s go work on that.” And to give you a sense of scale, the top quark, which is the heaviest particle ever discovered, discovered at Fermilab in 1995, there were two discovery papers, and the one on which I was a co-author, we had worked for a good chunk of between six months and a year of collecting collisions, and there were a lot of collisions, and our paper had 38 top quark candidates. 38.
Don Lincoln
And we knew that half of them were crap because when you make a detector like that, there’s what you call background, so you have the background and the good stuff, and we know it was about 50/50. So we had maybe 19 top quarks after working for between six months and a year of collecting data. But now, at the LHC, we make a top quark every second. And that’s what higher energy and more collisions per second will do for you. That extra energy, you’re above threshold, you make a ton of them, and when you compare the 1995 Fermilab accelerator to the current CERN accelerator, it’s probably 1,000 times the collisions per second. So it went from painstaking, pulling teeth, to, yeah, now top quarks are a background. We try to get rid of them. There’s just too many of them.
And we knew that half of them were crap because when you make a detector like that, there’s what you call background, so you have the background and the good stuff, and we know it was about 50/50. So we had maybe 19 top quarks after working for between six months and a year of collecting data. But now, at the LHC, we make a top quark every second. And that’s what higher energy and more collisions per second will do for you. That extra energy, you’re above threshold, you make a ton of them, and when you compare the 1995 Fermilab accelerator to the current CERN accelerator, it’s probably 1,000 times the collisions per second. So it went from painstaking, pulling teeth, to, yeah, now top quarks are a background. We try to get rid of them. There’s just too many of them.
Don Lincoln
They get in the way of searching for the stuff we really wanna search. They are, like, so 30 years ago.
They get in the way of searching for the stuff we really wanna search. They are, like, so 30 years ago.
Lex Fridman
By the way, is there something to be said about the kind of signal processing here, how you remove the noise, how you remove the background, how you determine which particle is which? There’s probably some, like, incredible nuance there, even outside of the scope of this conversation.
By the way, is there something to be said about the kind of signal processing here, how you remove the noise, how you remove the background, how you determine which particle is which? There’s probably some, like, incredible nuance there, even outside of the scope of this conversation.
Don Lincoln
So let me just throw some numbers out, all right? So at the CERN accelerator, when it’s operating, the collisions occur at a prodigious rate. We get about a billion, with a B, collisions per second. Now, each one of those col- Yeah, yeah, that’s what I said. Now, it turns out some of them are happening at the same time, so there’s about, of order 40 million moments in time per second where you would take a shot, and inside that moment, there might be 20 collisions. So that’s why, where we get to the billion.
So let me just throw some numbers out, all right? So at the CERN accelerator, when it’s operating, the collisions occur at a prodigious rate. We get about a billion, with a B, collisions per second. Now, each one of those col- Yeah, yeah, that’s what I said. Now, it turns out some of them are happening at the same time, so there’s about, of order 40 million moments in time per second where you would take a shot, and inside that moment, there might be 20 collisions. So that’s why, where we get to the billion.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, but can you individually pinpoint the collisions?
Yeah, but can you individually pinpoint the collisions?
Don Lincoln
Sort of, to a degree. So the beams are, you know… The– When people think of beams, they think of, like, laser beams, but that’s not really what particle beams look like. Particle beams look like little tiny sticks of spaghetti, except they’re much thinner. They’re not as fat as a stick of spaghetti, and they’re at the LHC, different accelerators are different, they’re about this long. And so you have one of them going one way full of protons- … and another one going the other way full of protons, and they pass through each other. And as they- … pass through each other, you should think of this as like a swarm of bees.
Sort of, to a degree. So the beams are, you know… The– When people think of beams, they think of, like, laser beams, but that’s not really what particle beams look like. Particle beams look like little tiny sticks of spaghetti, except they’re much thinner. They’re not as fat as a stick of spaghetti, and they’re at the LHC, different accelerators are different, they’re about this long. And so you have one of them going one way full of protons- … and another one going the other way full of protons, and they pass through each other. And as they- … pass through each other, you should think of this as like a swarm of bees.
Don Lincoln
And this is like a swarm of bees, and mostly the bees pass through each other and don’t do anything. But every so often, some of the bees hit nose on and stripes and wings and everything everywhere.
And this is like a swarm of bees, and mostly the bees pass through each other and don’t do anything. But every so often, some of the bees hit nose on and stripes and wings and everything everywhere.
Lex Fridman
That’s awesome. That’s awesome.
That’s awesome. That’s awesome.
Don Lincoln
And so as they collide through each other, you know, one collision’s here, and one’s here, and one’s here. And you can’t tell too much side to side because the beams are really small. They’re sort of the thickness of a human hair. But you can see along the direction. And they’re, you know, this is about the right size. And so we have detectors around them, and we can actually see, oh, particles came from here, and particles came from here.
And so as they collide through each other, you know, one collision’s here, and one’s here, and one’s here. And you can’t tell too much side to side because the beams are really small. They’re sort of the thickness of a human hair. But you can see along the direction. And they’re, you know, this is about the right size. And so we have detectors around them, and we can actually see, oh, particles came from here, and particles came from here.
Don Lincoln
And that’s amazing. All right. So at any one crossing, there’s maybe 20 collisions. Now, most collisions are absolutely boring. They’re boring because they exemplify physics that we know a great deal about already. We’ve tested it for decades. We know all about it. We don’t care. I mean, it’s kind of blasé that we can say, “Oh, yeah, yeah, we’re making a billion subatomic particles every second,” but who cares because, you know? But that’s just the way of frontier scientists. So what you need is you need to pick out the cool ones, the weird ones, the ones that nobody’s seen before. And so what happens is these things, these beams collide, and we surround the collision point with an enormous detector.
And that’s amazing. All right. So at any one crossing, there’s maybe 20 collisions. Now, most collisions are absolutely boring. They’re boring because they exemplify physics that we know a great deal about already. We’ve tested it for decades. We know all about it. We don’t care. I mean, it’s kind of blasé that we can say, “Oh, yeah, yeah, we’re making a billion subatomic particles every second,” but who cares because, you know? But that’s just the way of frontier scientists. So what you need is you need to pick out the cool ones, the weird ones, the ones that nobody’s seen before. And so what happens is these things, these beams collide, and we surround the collision point with an enormous detector.
Don Lincoln
There are two absolutely ginormous detectors at the LHC, one of them called CMS, which is the one I’m on, and the other one is called ATLAS- … which is the other one and we don’t speak of bec— No, they’re both really amazing.
There are two absolutely ginormous detectors at the LHC, one of them called CMS, which is the one I’m on, and the other one is called ATLAS- … which is the other one and we don’t speak of bec— No, they’re both really amazing.
Lex Fridman
Okay. It’s good to know that there’s friendly competition even inside CERN.
Okay. It’s good to know that there’s friendly competition even inside CERN.
Don Lincoln
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
Lex Fridman
That’s awesome.
That’s awesome.
Don Lincoln
I mean, the fact is they are both amazing, absolutely amazing detectors.
I mean, the fact is they are both amazing, absolutely amazing detectors.
Lex Fridman
Right. But CMS is just a little cooler than ATLAS.
Right. But CMS is just a little cooler than ATLAS.
Don Lincoln
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, in particle physics, we really absolutely want our competitors to do extremely well, just not quite as well as we do.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, in particle physics, we really absolutely want our competitors to do extremely well, just not quite as well as we do.
Lex Fridman
Got it.
Got it.
Don Lincoln
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Lex Fridman
All right.
All right.
Don Lincoln
So-
So-
Lex Fridman
So these two giant detectors.
So these two giant detectors.
Don Lincoln
Right. So, but one of them, our detector, the CMS detector, it’s the small one. It is 70 feet long, 50 feet high, 50 feet wide. It’s five stories tall. It weighs 14,000 tons.
Right. So, but one of them, our detector, the CMS detector, it’s the small one. It is 70 feet long, 50 feet high, 50 feet wide. It’s five stories tall. It weighs 14,000 tons.
Lex Fridman
Small one, yep.
Small one, yep.
Don Lincoln
Small. ATLAS experiment is 150 feet long, 80 feet across. It weighs only 7,000 tons. Just piece of cake. You could take the ATLAS detector, and you could put four of them on a soccer or a football field, and it would fill the field up with just enough room on the sidelines for the cheerleaders and the water boy and the coaches and stuff. That’s how big they are.
Small. ATLAS experiment is 150 feet long, 80 feet across. It weighs only 7,000 tons. Just piece of cake. You could take the ATLAS detector, and you could put four of them on a soccer or a football field, and it would fill the field up with just enough room on the sidelines for the cheerleaders and the water boy and the coaches and stuff. That’s how big they are.
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
Don Lincoln
So these are absolutely ginormous detectors, and basically they’re cameras, and what they can do is they can take pictures 40 million times per second. Now, all the data comes streaming off that detector, and we can’t record it all. It would just fill up all of our tapes, and it would be full of all these boring things we don’t care about. So what we do is as the beams pass through one another, we teach our detectors to say, “We only want one where there are certain configurations that might be interesting,” like there’s gobs of energy in the detector, or there’s a gob of energy on one side and nothing on the other side, or there’s four gobs of energy or whatever. These are called triggers.
So these are absolutely ginormous detectors, and basically they’re cameras, and what they can do is they can take pictures 40 million times per second. Now, all the data comes streaming off that detector, and we can’t record it all. It would just fill up all of our tapes, and it would be full of all these boring things we don’t care about. So what we do is as the beams pass through one another, we teach our detectors to say, “We only want one where there are certain configurations that might be interesting,” like there’s gobs of energy in the detector, or there’s a gob of energy on one side and nothing on the other side, or there’s four gobs of energy or whatever. These are called triggers.
Don Lincoln
And so these– what we have is fast electronics that take the 40 million possible pictures per second, and it says, “You know, about 100,000 of those are really cool. We should think about them.” And then it passes not all of the 40 million, but those 100,000 to the next level, which are commercial processors that have basically our final analysis code, but optimized to run very, very quickly. And what they do is they do a really quick and dirty analysis to further refine what’s good and what’s not. And that computer farm then accepts about 1,000 collisions per second, and we record those for further analysis. So that’s what’s really happening. Of the 50 million possible collisions per second, the fast electronics and then the computers pick the thousand.
And so these– what we have is fast electronics that take the 40 million possible pictures per second, and it says, “You know, about 100,000 of those are really cool. We should think about them.” And then it passes not all of the 40 million, but those 100,000 to the next level, which are commercial processors that have basically our final analysis code, but optimized to run very, very quickly. And what they do is they do a really quick and dirty analysis to further refine what’s good and what’s not. And that computer farm then accepts about 1,000 collisions per second, and we record those for further analysis. So that’s what’s really happening. Of the 50 million possible collisions per second, the fast electronics and then the computers pick the thousand.
Don Lincoln
And then we pass those through analysis software and hand them to the graduate students, and they pick through them, looking and finding the handful that are the next Nobel Prize. So that’s how that works, and that is truly astonishing. I’m– hats off to the accelerator builders, the detector builders, the people who make the software work, the people who make the not gigabytes, not terabytes, but petabytes of data flow around the world seamlessly. It’s really amazing. I’m very grateful.
And then we pass those through analysis software and hand them to the graduate students, and they pick through them, looking and finding the handful that are the next Nobel Prize. So that’s how that works, and that is truly astonishing. I’m– hats off to the accelerator builders, the detector builders, the people who make the software work, the people who make the not gigabytes, not terabytes, but petabytes of data flow around the world seamlessly. It’s really amazing. I’m very grateful.
Higgs boson discovery
Lex Fridman
So take me to July 4th, 2012, the discovery of Higgs boson.
So take me to July 4th, 2012, the discovery of Higgs boson.
Don Lincoln
So this is really fun because the people searching for the Higgs, it’s a, it’s a community, and the entire community knew that the LHC was coming online. So even though many of us had been working on the Fermilab accelerators, a lot of us were transitioning to the CERN accelerator. So we were in the very funny business of wearing our Fermilab detector people hats, trying desperately to find the Higgs boson at Fermilab- … while simultaneously wearing our CERN hats, knowing that CERN was going to be able to find it if it existed. And so, you know, we were a little neurotic, kind of wanted, you know, our old stuff to work and there was an awful lot of people on both experiments.
So this is really fun because the people searching for the Higgs, it’s a, it’s a community, and the entire community knew that the LHC was coming online. So even though many of us had been working on the Fermilab accelerators, a lot of us were transitioning to the CERN accelerator. So we were in the very funny business of wearing our Fermilab detector people hats, trying desperately to find the Higgs boson at Fermilab- … while simultaneously wearing our CERN hats, knowing that CERN was going to be able to find it if it existed. And so, you know, we were a little neurotic, kind of wanted, you know, our old stuff to work and there was an awful lot of people on both experiments.
Lex Fridman
Did you have a sense that one of the two places would be able to find the Higgs? First, did you think the Higgs boson existed, and second, did you think that these accelerators have the chance to find them?
Did you have a sense that one of the two places would be able to find the Higgs? First, did you think the Higgs boson existed, and second, did you think that these accelerators have the chance to find them?
Don Lincoln
So I was cognizant of the fact that the Higgs boson might not exist, but there was a lot of evidence pointing in the direction that it might be. I knew that both experiments, the Fermilab accelerator and the CERN accelerator, would either find or rule out the Higgs if it existed.
So I was cognizant of the fact that the Higgs boson might not exist, but there was a lot of evidence pointing in the direction that it might be. I knew that both experiments, the Fermilab accelerator and the CERN accelerator, would either find or rule out the Higgs if it existed.
Lex Fridman
Rule out?
Rule out?
Don Lincoln
Well, that’s a possibility. I mean- … maybe the Higgs theory was wrong. Right? Until you, till you know it’s there, it might be wrong. It’s like dark matter. People talk about dark matter, it might not be real. I mean, I– it probably is, but it might not be.
Well, that’s a possibility. I mean- … maybe the Higgs theory was wrong. Right? Until you, till you know it’s there, it might be wrong. It’s like dark matter. People talk about dark matter, it might not be real. I mean, I– it probably is, but it might not be.
Lex Fridman
So you knew at these energy levels, you would be– you should be able to find-
So you knew at these energy levels, you would be– you should be able to find-
Don Lincoln
Yes
Yes
Lex Fridman
… the Higgs boson.
… the Higgs boson.
Don Lincoln
Yes. So that’s the nice thing about this kind of physics, because there was a theory, that theory made predictions. Now, there were parameters in the theory we didn’t know. If the mass was this, we’d get this thing. If the mass was this, we’d get this thing. But we could do the, the calculation for every conceivable Higgs mass, and so then we could search. Look, well, let’s say the Higgs mass is 100 in some units. Did we see it there? No. Then it’s not 100. Well, let’s look at 103. Is it there? No. So we could do that. Both accelerators could either find it or definitively rule out the predictions of simple Higgs theory, 100% guaranteed.
Yes. So that’s the nice thing about this kind of physics, because there was a theory, that theory made predictions. Now, there were parameters in the theory we didn’t know. If the mass was this, we’d get this thing. If the mass was this, we’d get this thing. But we could do the, the calculation for every conceivable Higgs mass, and so then we could search. Look, well, let’s say the Higgs mass is 100 in some units. Did we see it there? No. Then it’s not 100. Well, let’s look at 103. Is it there? No. So we could do that. Both accelerators could either find it or definitively rule out the predictions of simple Higgs theory, 100% guaranteed.
Don Lincoln
However, the CERN accelerator had 10 times the collisions per second and three and a half times the energy. So remember when I said it– with the top quarks, it was, like, six months for 19 versus one a second? There’s no question. The writing is on the wall. The LHC was gonna have an easier time of it- … if it was real. However, but, you know, I’m a Fermilab scientist, and we wanted Fermilab, you know, come on, we want Fermilab- … to win.
However, the CERN accelerator had 10 times the collisions per second and three and a half times the energy. So remember when I said it– with the top quarks, it was, like, six months for 19 versus one a second? There’s no question. The writing is on the wall. The LHC was gonna have an easier time of it- … if it was real. However, but, you know, I’m a Fermilab scientist, and we wanted Fermilab, you know, come on, we want Fermilab- … to win.
Lex Fridman
Of course.
Of course.
Don Lincoln
Not, you know. So we were busting our butt, and we had done what I said. We had ruled out this region. We had certain mass ranges. We knew it wasn’t there. And we finally said, if there was a Higgs boson, if it existed, which we didn’t know at the time, its mass was somewhere between, if I recall, between, like, 120 and 145. All right? We’d ruled out all the other stuff. And so wearing our CERN hat, we said, “Okay, we’re gonna find that.” But we were really, really, really trying to do it. Now, if we had had another two years or maybe three years of running the Fermi accelerator, Fermilab would have discovered or ruled out, or in this case, it turned out, discovered the Higgs boson, ’cause it’s a real thing. We would have found it without a question.
Not, you know. So we were busting our butt, and we had done what I said. We had ruled out this region. We had certain mass ranges. We knew it wasn’t there. And we finally said, if there was a Higgs boson, if it existed, which we didn’t know at the time, its mass was somewhere between, if I recall, between, like, 120 and 145. All right? We’d ruled out all the other stuff. And so wearing our CERN hat, we said, “Okay, we’re gonna find that.” But we were really, really, really trying to do it. Now, if we had had another two years or maybe three years of running the Fermi accelerator, Fermilab would have discovered or ruled out, or in this case, it turned out, discovered the Higgs boson, ’cause it’s a real thing. We would have found it without a question.
Don Lincoln
But we didn’t have enough data in July of 2012. We needed a couple more years. Unfortunately, in 2008, or fortunately, the LHC had turned on. It broke. They had to fix it. Turned on again in 2010. It ran poorly in 2011. In 2012, they pushed up their sleeves and said, “Let’s do this,” and it turned on. And so, you know, there was this– Fermilab knew if it didn’t have it now, it was too late. Anyways, 2012 rolls around, and like two days before the announcement at CERN was July 4th, so two days before that, Fermilab made a measurement and said, “We can rule out certain regions, but certain regions we can’t rule out. But what we know, and this is important, if the Higgs boson exists, it must be in this region for which we are not capable yet of ruling out.”
But we didn’t have enough data in July of 2012. We needed a couple more years. Unfortunately, in 2008, or fortunately, the LHC had turned on. It broke. They had to fix it. Turned on again in 2010. It ran poorly in 2011. In 2012, they pushed up their sleeves and said, “Let’s do this,” and it turned on. And so, you know, there was this– Fermilab knew if it didn’t have it now, it was too late. Anyways, 2012 rolls around, and like two days before the announcement at CERN was July 4th, so two days before that, Fermilab made a measurement and said, “We can rule out certain regions, but certain regions we can’t rule out. But what we know, and this is important, if the Higgs boson exists, it must be in this region for which we are not capable yet of ruling out.”
Don Lincoln
So that’s where we were two days before the LHC said, “We got it.” That was July 4th, 2012.
So that’s where we were two days before the LHC said, “We got it.” That was July 4th, 2012.
Lex Fridman
So detecting the, the Higgs boson confirmed the existence of the Higgs field, the mechanism through which fundamental particles like electrons and quarks acquire mass in the standard model.
So detecting the, the Higgs boson confirmed the existence of the Higgs field, the mechanism through which fundamental particles like electrons and quarks acquire mass in the standard model.
Don Lincoln
Correct. Although, let’s be very specific of what we did then. We found a particle consistent with the existence of the Higgs boson. There were alternative theories at the time that predicted not one, but multiple Higgs bosons. So there’s a theory called supersymmetry, which said that there was not one, but five Higgs bosons. The standard original 1964 Higgs theory says there were one. And so all we really knew at the time was we found a theory. We did not necessarily confirm that Higgs was right. We found data that said that it looked like Higgs was right, but until we ran for longer, we were unable to rule out other alternative theories. So that’s the deal.
Correct. Although, let’s be very specific of what we did then. We found a particle consistent with the existence of the Higgs boson. There were alternative theories at the time that predicted not one, but multiple Higgs bosons. So there’s a theory called supersymmetry, which said that there was not one, but five Higgs bosons. The standard original 1964 Higgs theory says there were one. And so all we really knew at the time was we found a theory. We did not necessarily confirm that Higgs was right. We found data that said that it looked like Higgs was right, but until we ran for longer, we were unable to rule out other alternative theories. So that’s the deal.
Don Lincoln
Now, in the fullness of time, it is after all what, 14 years now later, we have been able to basically rule out some of those other things, and by now we have validated things. We found the mass of the particle. We know the spin of the Higgs boson. It has a spin of zero. We have discovered the Higgs boson decays. It preferentially decays into the heaviest particles it can through energy conservation. Can’t decay into top quarks, it’s too light to decay into top quarks, but it can decay into bottom quarks. It can decay into W and Z particles, can decay in a weird way into photons. And we have looked for all of the hypothesized decays of the original Higgs theory-
Now, in the fullness of time, it is after all what, 14 years now later, we have been able to basically rule out some of those other things, and by now we have validated things. We found the mass of the particle. We know the spin of the Higgs boson. It has a spin of zero. We have discovered the Higgs boson decays. It preferentially decays into the heaviest particles it can through energy conservation. Can’t decay into top quarks, it’s too light to decay into top quarks, but it can decay into bottom quarks. It can decay into W and Z particles, can decay in a weird way into photons. And we have looked for all of the hypothesized decays of the original Higgs theory-
Don Lincoln
… and we have validated that it decays in those ways at the rates that theory predicted. And so now in the fullness of time, I’m pretty comfortable saying Peter Higgs and Robert Brout and François Englert and, and his colleagues, they were right back in the ’60s. But we weren’t sure on July 4th. All we knew was we found a particle consistent. But the thing is, with these discoveries, they’re often just barely discoveries. It takes a while to go and do the more complex, detailed measurements and, and that’s what we’ve done.
… and we have validated that it decays in those ways at the rates that theory predicted. And so now in the fullness of time, I’m pretty comfortable saying Peter Higgs and Robert Brout and François Englert and, and his colleagues, they were right back in the ’60s. But we weren’t sure on July 4th. All we knew was we found a particle consistent. But the thing is, with these discoveries, they’re often just barely discoveries. It takes a while to go and do the more complex, detailed measurements and, and that’s what we’ve done.
Lex Fridman
So at the time, I remember it being referred to as the God particle. You also had a minor in theology, so throwing that all together, so calling it the God particle is speaking to the importance, the potential importance of discovering this particle. Do you think that is in some degree justified? Like, if we look at the big impact of it on the, on the history of physics, how important was it to find and show that the, the, the Higgs field is real?
So at the time, I remember it being referred to as the God particle. You also had a minor in theology, so throwing that all together, so calling it the God particle is speaking to the importance, the potential importance of discovering this particle. Do you think that is in some degree justified? Like, if we look at the big impact of it on the, on the history of physics, how important was it to find and show that the, the, the Higgs field is real?
Don Lincoln
Well, I don’t think it is as important as, for instance, some of Einstein’s stuff. I mean, it was– it’s an important prediction. Like, the prediction of quarks was very important and interesting in validating this. The Higgs was kinda like validating that quarks existed. It, it’s an important stepping stone, and I, I do not wish to, to denigrate it in any way, but there’s ones that changed the way we thought about the world, like Einstein did. It wasn’t that sort of thing. And there is a funny story. So the reason they call it the God particle is this book by Leon Lederman, and if you read his book, he says, “Well, you know, we call it the God particle, but we should call it the goddamn particle because it’s been causing us so much trouble trying to find it.”
Well, I don’t think it is as important as, for instance, some of Einstein’s stuff. I mean, it was– it’s an important prediction. Like, the prediction of quarks was very important and interesting in validating this. The Higgs was kinda like validating that quarks existed. It, it’s an important stepping stone, and I, I do not wish to, to denigrate it in any way, but there’s ones that changed the way we thought about the world, like Einstein did. It wasn’t that sort of thing. And there is a funny story. So the reason they call it the God particle is this book by Leon Lederman, and if you read his book, he says, “Well, you know, we call it the God particle, but we should call it the goddamn particle because it’s been causing us so much trouble trying to find it.”
Don Lincoln
And Leon ran Fermilab, so– and he wrote a foreword for one of my books and, you know, I talked to him. He was a really funny guy. And the real truth was the book was called “The God Particle” because his publisher thought it would sell more copies. But, you know, then that got into the mindset of the reporters and so forth, and we called it the God particle. Leon never really thought of it as anything to do with the religious or even– I mean, he was an incredible jokester, the goddamn particle.
And Leon ran Fermilab, so– and he wrote a foreword for one of my books and, you know, I talked to him. He was a really funny guy. And the real truth was the book was called “The God Particle” because his publisher thought it would sell more copies. But, you know, then that got into the mindset of the reporters and so forth, and we called it the God particle. Leon never really thought of it as anything to do with the religious or even– I mean, he was an incredible jokester, the goddamn particle.
Lex Fridman
It is a really important part of our model of the universe.
It is a really important part of our model of the universe.
Don Lincoln
It is.
It is.
Lex Fridman
That there’s this field that gives mass to some particles and not others, that’s-
That there’s this field that gives mass to some particles and not others, that’s-
Don Lincoln
Right. It’s a huge thing, but it was part of the standard model. The standard model had known forces, it had known particles, it had all that. The Higgs boson, the one thing that is true is it was the last unvalidated piece of the standard model. The standard model does not answer all questions, which is why we have unanswered questions in physics, but it was a punctuation point, end of about 50 years of discovery and searching, where we finally were able to say the standard model, while incomplete, it’s mostly right as far as it goes.
Right. It’s a huge thing, but it was part of the standard model. The standard model had known forces, it had known particles, it had all that. The Higgs boson, the one thing that is true is it was the last unvalidated piece of the standard model. The standard model does not answer all questions, which is why we have unanswered questions in physics, but it was a punctuation point, end of about 50 years of discovery and searching, where we finally were able to say the standard model, while incomplete, it’s mostly right as far as it goes.
Theory of everything
Lex Fridman
Quick 10-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to my conversation with Don Lincoln. We did a whirlwind tour of the history of physics and took a little tangent on this incredible discovery of the Higgs boson. But we didn’t go all the way yet. There’s this dream of the grand unified theory, the GUT, that is a step towards the TOE, theory of everything. So can we talk about the GUT first? So what’s entailed in the GUT?
Quick 10-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to my conversation with Don Lincoln. We did a whirlwind tour of the history of physics and took a little tangent on this incredible discovery of the Higgs boson. But we didn’t go all the way yet. There’s this dream of the grand unified theory, the GUT, that is a step towards the TOE, theory of everything. So can we talk about the GUT first? So what’s entailed in the GUT?
Don Lincoln
So the GUT is short for grand unified theory. We talked about that there were four known subatomic forces, the electromagnetic force, gravity, the strong force, and the weak force. And electroweak symmetry unification merged the weak force and electromagnetism into the electroweak force. So what GUT hopes to do is to merge the electroweak force and the strong force into one grand unified force. Now, that leaves gravity outside because gravity is seemingly fundamentally significantly different.
So the GUT is short for grand unified theory. We talked about that there were four known subatomic forces, the electromagnetic force, gravity, the strong force, and the weak force. And electroweak symmetry unification merged the weak force and electromagnetism into the electroweak force. So what GUT hopes to do is to merge the electroweak force and the strong force into one grand unified force. Now, that leaves gravity outside because gravity is seemingly fundamentally significantly different.
Don Lincoln
Then subsequently, it is hoped that at a higher energy, we will be able to blend the theory of everything together with all of the known subatomic forces, the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces, and then gravity. But so, as you say, GUT is sort of a way station along the way. That’s the goal, and at this point, I would have to say that I do not see a fast progress in the immediate future. I think we’re a ways away from that at this point.
Then subsequently, it is hoped that at a higher energy, we will be able to blend the theory of everything together with all of the known subatomic forces, the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces, and then gravity. But so, as you say, GUT is sort of a way station along the way. That’s the goal, and at this point, I would have to say that I do not see a fast progress in the immediate future. I think we’re a ways away from that at this point.
Lex Fridman
You mean on the gravity front?
You mean on the gravity front?
Don Lincoln
Maybe we’ll come up with something really cool. We certainly had some ideas back in the early ’80s that we tested, and they didn’t pan out.
Maybe we’ll come up with something really cool. We certainly had some ideas back in the early ’80s that we tested, and they didn’t pan out.
Lex Fridman
Speaking of which, string theory is the thing you’re referring to. So string theory posits that particles are tiny vibrating strings, and by tiny we mean extremely tiny at the scale of a Planck length. Then there’s other leading candidates like loop quantum gravity. Maybe there’s some alternate theories in the works. So can you link on that a little bit more? Do you think a theory of everything exists?
Speaking of which, string theory is the thing you’re referring to. So string theory posits that particles are tiny vibrating strings, and by tiny we mean extremely tiny at the scale of a Planck length. Then there’s other leading candidates like loop quantum gravity. Maybe there’s some alternate theories in the works. So can you link on that a little bit more? Do you think a theory of everything exists?
Don Lincoln
So I hold personally that there are rules that govern matter and energy, space, time, and they probably are rules that I don’t know. There are probably phenomena I’m not aware of. But I do believe that something, there are, is a rule that governs reality. And so in that sense, once we understand the rules that govern reality, the fundamental rules, that would be a theory of everything. You know, there are things that are unknowable, like for instance, inside black holes, we don’t know what’s inside there, but that doesn’t mean that there’s not something inside there. So there’s a distinction between what we can know and truth.
So I hold personally that there are rules that govern matter and energy, space, time, and they probably are rules that I don’t know. There are probably phenomena I’m not aware of. But I do believe that something, there are, is a rule that governs reality. And so in that sense, once we understand the rules that govern reality, the fundamental rules, that would be a theory of everything. You know, there are things that are unknowable, like for instance, inside black holes, we don’t know what’s inside there, but that doesn’t mean that there’s not something inside there. So there’s a distinction between what we can know and truth.
Don Lincoln
So I do believe that there are the rules, and I do believe that with sufficient time, technology, effort, we will be able to figure this all out. Now, this isn’t a thing in my lifetime. It’s not a thing in my grandchildren’s lifetime or even their grandchildren’s lifetime.
So I do believe that there are the rules, and I do believe that with sufficient time, technology, effort, we will be able to figure this all out. Now, this isn’t a thing in my lifetime. It’s not a thing in my grandchildren’s lifetime or even their grandchildren’s lifetime.
Lex Fridman
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s a pretty strong statement, right? That’s a pretty strong statement saying we’re fifty to a hundred years out from finding a theory of everything.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s a pretty strong statement, right? That’s a pretty strong statement saying we’re fifty to a hundred years out from finding a theory of everything.
Don Lincoln
It took two hundred years to go from unifying gravity to unifying electromagnetism. It took a hundred years to go from unifying electromagnetism to unifying the electroweak force. Now, you could say, well, gee, that went from two hundred to a hundred, so it’s getting faster. But it’s also getting harder because the unification scale is of order ten to the fifteen, which—we can do the math. That’s a quadrillion times higher than the highest energy accelerator we can build today.
It took two hundred years to go from unifying gravity to unifying electromagnetism. It took a hundred years to go from unifying electromagnetism to unifying the electroweak force. Now, you could say, well, gee, that went from two hundred to a hundred, so it’s getting faster. But it’s also getting harder because the unification scale is of order ten to the fifteen, which—we can do the math. That’s a quadrillion times higher than the highest energy accelerator we can build today.
Don Lincoln
And it was one thing to, you know, we are reaching diminishing returns. We get something like a factor of seven increase in particle accelerator energy every twenty years. And so we have to get to a quadrillion times. Now, if you really did believe a factor of seven every twenty years, then that’s– we’re talking like five hundred years. But you know, this is like Moore’s law, that it doesn’t continue forever. We’re not going to every twenty years get another factor of seven. So yes, I think it’s a very long time. That’s my prediction. You know, some people are far more optimistic, and we can talk about that.
And it was one thing to, you know, we are reaching diminishing returns. We get something like a factor of seven increase in particle accelerator energy every twenty years. And so we have to get to a quadrillion times. Now, if you really did believe a factor of seven every twenty years, then that’s– we’re talking like five hundred years. But you know, this is like Moore’s law, that it doesn’t continue forever. We’re not going to every twenty years get another factor of seven. So yes, I think it’s a very long time. That’s my prediction. You know, some people are far more optimistic, and we can talk about that.
Lex Fridman
We should also, I should mention that I guess your intuition behind that is not just the part where you come up with a theory that’s beautiful and seems to be internally consistent, but you have to have a theory that’s making falsifiable, testable predictions.
We should also, I should mention that I guess your intuition behind that is not just the part where you come up with a theory that’s beautiful and seems to be internally consistent, but you have to have a theory that’s making falsifiable, testable predictions.
Don Lincoln
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
And you have to have a feasible engineering construction, a methodology for creating an experiment that tests that prediction. So I think a lot of your, this is fifty, a hundred, two hundred years from now, intuition is maybe about the second part of that, which is like, you need to have an experiment.
And you have to have a feasible engineering construction, a methodology for creating an experiment that tests that prediction. So I think a lot of your, this is fifty, a hundred, two hundred years from now, intuition is maybe about the second part of that, which is like, you need to have an experiment.
Don Lincoln
Yes. Yes. But you know, let’s say, I mean, you alluded to superstrings. I haven’t answered that question. I’ll table that for a moment. Superstrings is a fascinating idea. I don’t believe it, but I love it. I hope it’s true. And there’s a real, you know, aphorism, and it says you should absolutely never believe what you think. So even if you think superstrings is true, you shouldn’t believe it because it hasn’t been tested.
Yes. Yes. But you know, let’s say, I mean, you alluded to superstrings. I haven’t answered that question. I’ll table that for a moment. Superstrings is a fascinating idea. I don’t believe it, but I love it. I hope it’s true. And there’s a real, you know, aphorism, and it says you should absolutely never believe what you think. So even if you think superstrings is true, you shouldn’t believe it because it hasn’t been tested.
Don Lincoln
Now, let’s say superstring is correct. I mean, hypothesis, it’s correct, hundred percent correct. I don’t know it’s correct, so I don’t care. I mean, you know, it could be correct, but until it’s validated, it’s just a wild-ass guess, you know? So I, we have to have a way of validating it. So yes, the empirical side of it is important. I mean, you could wake up tomorrow and have the theory that is the perfect theory, but if I can’t prove it, I don’t care.
Now, let’s say superstring is correct. I mean, hypothesis, it’s correct, hundred percent correct. I don’t know it’s correct, so I don’t care. I mean, you know, it could be correct, but until it’s validated, it’s just a wild-ass guess, you know? So I, we have to have a way of validating it. So yes, the empirical side of it is important. I mean, you could wake up tomorrow and have the theory that is the perfect theory, but if I can’t prove it, I don’t care.
Lex Fridman
If we were to think, this is going back to the Great Courses on The Evidence for Modern Physics- … we’re talking about energy levels and tiny particles to the degree where the kind of prediction we would be making is not accelerator-type predictions. So it’s probably going to be impossible to build an accelerator that detects something like a string. So you have to make predictions about macro scale behaviors.
If we were to think, this is going back to the Great Courses on The Evidence for Modern Physics- … we’re talking about energy levels and tiny particles to the degree where the kind of prediction we would be making is not accelerator-type predictions. So it’s probably going to be impossible to build an accelerator that detects something like a string. So you have to make predictions about macro scale behaviors.
Don Lincoln
That’s another alternative.
That’s another alternative.
Lex Fridman
It’s a different kind of prediction.
It’s a different kind of prediction.
Don Lincoln
Sure.
Sure.
Lex Fridman
Do we even have intuitions about what kind of predictions they would be? So one, one of course, one of the lines of intuitions has to do with black holes or in the singularity. The physics of black holes combine certain elements of general relativity and quantum mechanics. So there- … you could see some kind of predictions you could make, but you can’t really mess with a black hole. It’s not like you can create a black hole in the lab.
Do we even have intuitions about what kind of predictions they would be? So one, one of course, one of the lines of intuitions has to do with black holes or in the singularity. The physics of black holes combine certain elements of general relativity and quantum mechanics. So there- … you could see some kind of predictions you could make, but you can’t really mess with a black hole. It’s not like you can create a black hole in the lab.
Don Lincoln
And the energies that we’re talking about, the sizes we’re talking about are inside a black hole, which you can intrinsically never see.
And the energies that we’re talking about, the sizes we’re talking about are inside a black hole, which you can intrinsically never see.
Don Lincoln
So, you know, you can only see the outside of a black hole, not the inside of a black hole. So what you said, you did say something that was incredibly important and incredibly correct and probably won’t happen, but that’s still good, okay? So we have two choices. When you talk about superstrings, either superstrings are correct and they’re making predictions up at the Planck energy scale, at which point we have to somehow build facilities that can generate Planck energies. That’s possibility one. Possibility two is this theory, which is currently only applicable at Planck energy scales, someone figures out a way to take those equations and solve them in a way that, say, predicts the mass of the electron. Right? And that is a tricky business.
So, you know, you can only see the outside of a black hole, not the inside of a black hole. So what you said, you did say something that was incredibly important and incredibly correct and probably won’t happen, but that’s still good, okay? So we have two choices. When you talk about superstrings, either superstrings are correct and they’re making predictions up at the Planck energy scale, at which point we have to somehow build facilities that can generate Planck energies. That’s possibility one. Possibility two is this theory, which is currently only applicable at Planck energy scales, someone figures out a way to take those equations and solve them in a way that, say, predicts the mass of the electron. Right? And that is a tricky business.
Don Lincoln
I am not a string theorist, so I can’t tell you that that’s likely, but I can tell you that they’ve been working on it since the ’80s and they haven’t gotten very far. Furthermore, I think it’s fair to characterize that string theory is still a vague idea, and that’s unfair, but let me tell you why I say that: because what they have are approximate solutions to approximate equations and that is already saying that we’re a ways away from really getting a handle on that. So yes, there could be some bright young lad or lass out there, someone listening to this podcast right now who figures out a way to take superstring theory and solve them in tractable ways that makes predictions from the scale at which they currently apply down to measurable scale today.
I am not a string theorist, so I can’t tell you that that’s likely, but I can tell you that they’ve been working on it since the ’80s and they haven’t gotten very far. Furthermore, I think it’s fair to characterize that string theory is still a vague idea, and that’s unfair, but let me tell you why I say that: because what they have are approximate solutions to approximate equations and that is already saying that we’re a ways away from really getting a handle on that. So yes, there could be some bright young lad or lass out there, someone listening to this podcast right now who figures out a way to take superstring theory and solve them in tractable ways that makes predictions from the scale at which they currently apply down to measurable scale today.
Don Lincoln
And if that happens, well, then I might retract my question or my concept. There’s a reason why I think that probably isn’t true. That’s probably not valid. So let me– I, I love this, all right? So let’s back up. I’m going to pitch. I wrote this book for Oxford, Einstein’s Unfinished Dream, and Einstein’s unfinished dream was to come up with a theory of everything. It was unfinished because, well, it’s unfinished. And so the second part, the tagline of that book is Practical Progress Towards a Theory of Everything, with the emphasis on practical because when you read books about theories of everything, when you see podcasts, when you listen to YouTube videos or whatever, they are often written by theorists. And theorists are– they’re big idea people.
And if that happens, well, then I might retract my question or my concept. There’s a reason why I think that probably isn’t true. That’s probably not valid. So let me– I, I love this, all right? So let’s back up. I’m going to pitch. I wrote this book for Oxford, Einstein’s Unfinished Dream, and Einstein’s unfinished dream was to come up with a theory of everything. It was unfinished because, well, it’s unfinished. And so the second part, the tagline of that book is Practical Progress Towards a Theory of Everything, with the emphasis on practical because when you read books about theories of everything, when you see podcasts, when you listen to YouTube videos or whatever, they are often written by theorists. And theorists are– they’re big idea people.
Don Lincoln
They’re very, very smart, but there’s a pragmatism that is often missing in the sense that they say, “Well, superstrings, look, you know, have these little vibrating things, and wouldn’t it be cool?” And, you know, but you gotta get to the “do you know it?” So let’s pretend superstring theory or something like it is correct. The energy scale at which that should occur is of order 10 to the 15 times higher, 10 to the 19 GeV. We can currently do things at 10 to the fourth GeV, give or take. So that is 10 to the 15. That’s a quadrillion times higher energy. So what we are doing now is we are looking at the world with our very best measurements, and we are trying to project out a quadrillion times higher and figure out a theory that explains everything.
They’re very, very smart, but there’s a pragmatism that is often missing in the sense that they say, “Well, superstrings, look, you know, have these little vibrating things, and wouldn’t it be cool?” And, you know, but you gotta get to the “do you know it?” So let’s pretend superstring theory or something like it is correct. The energy scale at which that should occur is of order 10 to the 15 times higher, 10 to the 19 GeV. We can currently do things at 10 to the fourth GeV, give or take. So that is 10 to the 15. That’s a quadrillion times higher energy. So what we are doing now is we are looking at the world with our very best measurements, and we are trying to project out a quadrillion times higher and figure out a theory that explains everything.
Don Lincoln
Now, I, I, I have this– I have a couple of analogies, but I like this. Suppose that you were some, you know, Joe Australopithecus 2 million years ago or something in Africa, wandering around somewhere in Kenya. Mm-hmm. Right? You’re about a meter in size, so you can walk a meter. Meter scale is like your scale. Mm-hmm. You can walk 10 meters in every direction. That’s 30 feet, no problem. You can work 100 meters, 300 feet. You can work 1,000 meters. That’s half a mile. You can work 10,000 meters. That’s 60 miles. 100,000 meters is 10 to the fifth and, and that, that’s unlikely. But the distance that we need to go from what we can see to the Planck scale, it’s not 10 to the fifth, it’s 10 to the 15th. So that means, in my analogy, think about this guy who’s walking around Africa.
Now, I, I, I have this– I have a couple of analogies, but I like this. Suppose that you were some, you know, Joe Australopithecus 2 million years ago or something in Africa, wandering around somewhere in Kenya. Mm-hmm. Right? You’re about a meter in size, so you can walk a meter. Meter scale is like your scale. Mm-hmm. You can walk 10 meters in every direction. That’s 30 feet, no problem. You can work 100 meters, 300 feet. You can work 1,000 meters. That’s half a mile. You can work 10,000 meters. That’s 60 miles. 100,000 meters is 10 to the fifth and, and that, that’s unlikely. But the distance that we need to go from what we can see to the Planck scale, it’s not 10 to the fifth, it’s 10 to the 15th. So that means, in my analogy, think about this guy who’s walking around Africa.
Don Lincoln
Now, if he walks, you know, 100 feet or something, it looks a lot like what it is now. He can make a prediction about what he sees, and when he goes to that new place, it’s probably going to be okay. But if he starts walking 500 miles east, well, he, walking around the center of Africa, has no concept of, for instance, the Indian Ocean. He would never predict sperm whales or kraken. He would never predict what it’s like—the bottom of the ocean is going north. He’s in Africa. He would never, ever have a clue about the Alps or Antarctica. Going even smaller distances, going a mile up, things wouldn’t be very different. But if he goes 10 miles up, he wouldn’t breathe and he’d freeze. If he goes 100 miles up, he would die. If he goes two miles down, he would roast.
Now, if he walks, you know, 100 feet or something, it looks a lot like what it is now. He can make a prediction about what he sees, and when he goes to that new place, it’s probably going to be okay. But if he starts walking 500 miles east, well, he, walking around the center of Africa, has no concept of, for instance, the Indian Ocean. He would never predict sperm whales or kraken. He would never predict what it’s like—the bottom of the ocean is going north. He’s in Africa. He would never, ever have a clue about the Alps or Antarctica. Going even smaller distances, going a mile up, things wouldn’t be very different. But if he goes 10 miles up, he wouldn’t breathe and he’d freeze. If he goes 100 miles up, he would die. If he goes two miles down, he would roast.
Don Lincoln
The point being is we are like that Australopithecus. We have a realm that we can study, and we can even predict to some validity what would happen if we go some distance away. But the farther away we go, the less and less our local prediction really represents the reality of those more distant times. And so basically, his theory about the world would be totally bogus. So even if he had the best theory, his theory would not have anticipated the Alps. It would not have anticipated penguins. Right? Flamingos, not there. Yeah. You know? And that is just the case. So now that’s what we’re doing. We are taking something and we have reason to understand what we know and we can predict a factor of 10 or 100.
The point being is we are like that Australopithecus. We have a realm that we can study, and we can even predict to some validity what would happen if we go some distance away. But the farther away we go, the less and less our local prediction really represents the reality of those more distant times. And so basically, his theory about the world would be totally bogus. So even if he had the best theory, his theory would not have anticipated the Alps. It would not have anticipated penguins. Right? Flamingos, not there. Yeah. You know? And that is just the case. So now that’s what we’re doing. We are taking something and we have reason to understand what we know and we can predict a factor of 10 or 100.
Don Lincoln
But I think it is the absolute, the pinnacle of arrogance to think that what we can do given the understanding that we have from what we’ve measured now and predict it out a quadrillion times higher than we can see now. So my opinion, and this is partly because I’m an experimentalist, the correct way to make progress—practical progress towards a theory of everything—is to look around at the things that we don’t have answers to right now. For instance, are there some things smaller than quarks? I don’t know. Is dark matter real? I don’t know. If it’s real, what is it? I don’t know. Is dark energy real? Yes, probably, but I don’t know. What is the nature of space and time? I don’t know.
But I think it is the absolute, the pinnacle of arrogance to think that what we can do given the understanding that we have from what we’ve measured now and predict it out a quadrillion times higher than we can see now. So my opinion, and this is partly because I’m an experimentalist, the correct way to make progress—practical progress towards a theory of everything—is to look around at the things that we don’t have answers to right now. For instance, are there some things smaller than quarks? I don’t know. Is dark matter real? I don’t know. If it’s real, what is it? I don’t know. Is dark energy real? Yes, probably, but I don’t know. What is the nature of space and time? I don’t know.
Don Lincoln
But these are questions we can explore, and I would expect, and this is my prediction, that, all right, we’re gonna figure things out at a factor of 10 or 100 times better than we can do now, and we might be able to do that in my kid’s lifetime or something like that. But in order for us to predict a quadrillion times higher, I’m pretty sure superstring theory is wrong. Not because people aren’t smart, but because something new is going to happen. I mean, if you were talking about chemistry, you would have never predicted nuclear physics, and that’s a small increase in energy, right?
But these are questions we can explore, and I would expect, and this is my prediction, that, all right, we’re gonna figure things out at a factor of 10 or 100 times better than we can do now, and we might be able to do that in my kid’s lifetime or something like that. But in order for us to predict a quadrillion times higher, I’m pretty sure superstring theory is wrong. Not because people aren’t smart, but because something new is going to happen. I mean, if you were talking about chemistry, you would have never predicted nuclear physics, and that’s a small increase in energy, right?
Don Lincoln
The idea that there’s something in the nucleus of atoms that causes the sun to burn, there’s a reason why people didn’t believe, you know, they, they calculated how old the sun should be, and it should only be 10 million years old because otherwise it would burn out. Well, that’s clearly wrong, and it’s wrong because of nuclear physics. That is why I feel fairly confident to say, while someone could think, well, superstring might be right or something, and maybe it’s right, and I hope it’s right. It would be awesome if it’s right. But what are the odds when you’re making something with that tiny lever arm, predicting it out a quadrillion away and say, “Oh, yeah, we got it right.” What are the odds? And my answer is, you gotta be kidding me.
The idea that there’s something in the nucleus of atoms that causes the sun to burn, there’s a reason why people didn’t believe, you know, they, they calculated how old the sun should be, and it should only be 10 million years old because otherwise it would burn out. Well, that’s clearly wrong, and it’s wrong because of nuclear physics. That is why I feel fairly confident to say, while someone could think, well, superstring might be right or something, and maybe it’s right, and I hope it’s right. It would be awesome if it’s right. But what are the odds when you’re making something with that tiny lever arm, predicting it out a quadrillion away and say, “Oh, yeah, we got it right.” What are the odds? And my answer is, you gotta be kidding me.
Don Lincoln
Now, I could be wrong, and I admit that I could be wrong, but that’s why I think the real issue is not the brilliance of humanity. It’s the stuff we haven’t found. We don’t know– I mean, the simple one, and I’m say it simple, and it’s not, but what is dark matter? We don’t have a bleeping clue. Not a clue. We know a lot of what it isn’t, but we don’t know what it is. And so, you know, talk about superstrings. All right, well, maybe dark matter fits in superstrings, or maybe dark matter is governed by a physics that is completely diametrically opposed to the superstring concept.
Now, I could be wrong, and I admit that I could be wrong, but that’s why I think the real issue is not the brilliance of humanity. It’s the stuff we haven’t found. We don’t know– I mean, the simple one, and I’m say it simple, and it’s not, but what is dark matter? We don’t have a bleeping clue. Not a clue. We know a lot of what it isn’t, but we don’t know what it is. And so, you know, talk about superstrings. All right, well, maybe dark matter fits in superstrings, or maybe dark matter is governed by a physics that is completely diametrically opposed to the superstring concept.
Lex Fridman
And allow me a bit of a thought experiment here, a brief thought. My intuition says that when you propose a theory of everything, the kind of prediction you want to make involves a kind of leap of conceptual understanding that Einstein did. So, for example, you want to come up with something like space time and then gravity-
And allow me a bit of a thought experiment here, a brief thought. My intuition says that when you propose a theory of everything, the kind of prediction you want to make involves a kind of leap of conceptual understanding that Einstein did. So, for example, you want to come up with something like space time and then gravity-
Don Lincoln
Sure
Sure
Lex Fridman
…bends space, space time. So it’s not merely that you have this beautiful mathematical framework, but that framework allows you to rethink how you see reality enough to make a prediction that’s about the macro world.
…bends space, space time. So it’s not merely that you have this beautiful mathematical framework, but that framework allows you to rethink how you see reality enough to make a prediction that’s about the macro world.
Don Lincoln
I mean, to come up with something like space time, you know, there’s one idea, for instance, to say that space and time aren’t real. They emerge from entropy. Yeah, that’s a way of, a new way of thinking, and maybe there’s some validity, and I want people to think about it. But in the end, it’s just an idea, and that’s the real key thing. And, and as you say, it has to tie to a macro world. You have to validate. If you don’t validate, it’s a crazy idea. Theorists are incredibly creative, smart, wonderfully interesting people, but I don’t care. I want a measurement that validates the idea because there are so many– I mean, if you read the journals, there are so many theoretical papers with all these nifty ideas that die.
I mean, to come up with something like space time, you know, there’s one idea, for instance, to say that space and time aren’t real. They emerge from entropy. Yeah, that’s a way of, a new way of thinking, and maybe there’s some validity, and I want people to think about it. But in the end, it’s just an idea, and that’s the real key thing. And, and as you say, it has to tie to a macro world. You have to validate. If you don’t validate, it’s a crazy idea. Theorists are incredibly creative, smart, wonderfully interesting people, but I don’t care. I want a measurement that validates the idea because there are so many– I mean, if you read the journals, there are so many theoretical papers with all these nifty ideas that die.
Don Lincoln
You know one that was recently I liked and, and might still be true was that dark matter that, you know, our simple model of dark matter is that there’s a subatomic particle out there that’s heavy, and it’s floating around, and it’s causing gravity. But someone said, “Well, you know, maybe there’s complex dark matter,” which means there’s a whole dark sector, so there are dark atoms, and they interact with one another. And that is a nifty idea, and I love it. And that was all the rage for a while, and we looked at it, and it may still be true, but the simple ideas have been mostly invalidated because we’ve tested it and it doesn’t work. Same thing, there was a talk about large extra dimensions.
You know one that was recently I liked and, and might still be true was that dark matter that, you know, our simple model of dark matter is that there’s a subatomic particle out there that’s heavy, and it’s floating around, and it’s causing gravity. But someone said, “Well, you know, maybe there’s complex dark matter,” which means there’s a whole dark sector, so there are dark atoms, and they interact with one another. And that is a nifty idea, and I love it. And that was all the rage for a while, and we looked at it, and it may still be true, but the simple ideas have been mostly invalidated because we’ve tested it and it doesn’t work. Same thing, there was a talk about large extra dimensions.
Don Lincoln
The reason that gravity is so much weaker than the other forces was, well, maybe gravity can sneak into more dimensions than the other forces.
The reason that gravity is so much weaker than the other forces was, well, maybe gravity can sneak into more dimensions than the other forces.
Lex Fridman
It leaks into those dimensions.
It leaks into those dimensions.
Don Lincoln
That was a cool idea. I mean, but that’s the point is you have these lovely, cool, interesting ideas that constantly die. And so, you know, I would love for a new nifty idea to be the idea, but I don’t know how to pick it out of the hurricane of wrong ideas.
That was a cool idea. I mean, but that’s the point is you have these lovely, cool, interesting ideas that constantly die. And so, you know, I would love for a new nifty idea to be the idea, but I don’t know how to pick it out of the hurricane of wrong ideas.
Lex Fridman
I mean, that’s the real beauty of science. It really is– I mean, the theories kind of get some of the glory sometimes, but the real beauty emerges from the experiment and the demonstration that the theory is correct.
I mean, that’s the real beauty of science. It really is– I mean, the theories kind of get some of the glory sometimes, but the real beauty emerges from the experiment and the demonstration that the theory is correct.
Don Lincoln
And there are two directions. You’re talking a top-down. Someone comes up with this big idea that’s testable. But you also have the other way that science advances, and it’s not with a theory that is then tested. It’s with the, “Huh, that’s weird.” For instance, either in, in the 1930s with Fritz Zwicky or in the 1970s with Vera Rubin, she did a simple thing. She said, “How fast are galaxies rotating?” ‘Cause it’s an easy thing to calculate. You could literally calculate that with high school physics. And you get an answer, and then you measure it, and it’s wrong. And so I’ll– That, that’s the, wow, huh, I don’t know what that is. And that led to the hypothesis of, of dark matter. Now, dark matter is not a theory of everything, but it’s a clue. It’s a powerful clue.
And there are two directions. You’re talking a top-down. Someone comes up with this big idea that’s testable. But you also have the other way that science advances, and it’s not with a theory that is then tested. It’s with the, “Huh, that’s weird.” For instance, either in, in the 1930s with Fritz Zwicky or in the 1970s with Vera Rubin, she did a simple thing. She said, “How fast are galaxies rotating?” ‘Cause it’s an easy thing to calculate. You could literally calculate that with high school physics. And you get an answer, and then you measure it, and it’s wrong. And so I’ll– That, that’s the, wow, huh, I don’t know what that is. And that led to the hypothesis of, of dark matter. Now, dark matter is not a theory of everything, but it’s a clue. It’s a powerful clue.
Don Lincoln
We should pull, tug at that thread. Maybe our entire theoretical edifice unravels, or maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it’s just a snag, and we can fix what we have now. I’m not sure. So that’s another option is to simply look at many measurements that are very precise and find ones where the outcome and the prediction with established theory disagree, and that is a clue.
We should pull, tug at that thread. Maybe our entire theoretical edifice unravels, or maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it’s just a snag, and we can fix what we have now. I’m not sure. So that’s another option is to simply look at many measurements that are very precise and find ones where the outcome and the prediction with established theory disagree, and that is a clue.
Lex Fridman
Before we leave the topic, we gotta talk about string theory. In your view, is it basically dead? As I understand one of the primary flaws of string theory, outside of the testable experiments that we’re talking about, is because it relies on these unobserved extra dimensions, there was a hope that it uniquely could explain our universe, but it turns out this, quote, “landscape,” there’s an enormous so-called landscape of possibilities it leads to. And so it renders the theory basically unpredictive, ’cause it can describe all kinds of universes-
Before we leave the topic, we gotta talk about string theory. In your view, is it basically dead? As I understand one of the primary flaws of string theory, outside of the testable experiments that we’re talking about, is because it relies on these unobserved extra dimensions, there was a hope that it uniquely could explain our universe, but it turns out this, quote, “landscape,” there’s an enormous so-called landscape of possibilities it leads to. And so it renders the theory basically unpredictive, ’cause it can describe all kinds of universes-
Don Lincoln
Sure
Sure
Lex Fridman
… and therefore you can just select tune it to describe ours.
… and therefore you can just select tune it to describe ours.
Don Lincoln
I agree to a degree. But I bring it back to my prior objection. It is absolutely true that superstring theory at, in its current manifestation, aside from the extra dimensions, which are some level small potatoes, it allows for an extremely large number of possible universes. But if we were able to take those predictions and somehow connect it to a physical measurement, then what we would do is we’d lop off those alternatives. We’d throw them away as saying, “Well, you know, those are like an equation, you know, X plus five.” I can put in any number I want in there, it doesn’t matter. But if X plus five equals nine, then I’ve ruled out a whole bunch of numbers except four.
I agree to a degree. But I bring it back to my prior objection. It is absolutely true that superstring theory at, in its current manifestation, aside from the extra dimensions, which are some level small potatoes, it allows for an extremely large number of possible universes. But if we were able to take those predictions and somehow connect it to a physical measurement, then what we would do is we’d lop off those alternatives. We’d throw them away as saying, “Well, you know, those are like an equation, you know, X plus five.” I can put in any number I want in there, it doesn’t matter. But if X plus five equals nine, then I’ve ruled out a whole bunch of numbers except four.
Don Lincoln
And so this is a case of string theory does allow for many predictions, but if we could rule them out by connection to a measurement, then it would no longer do it. We would modify string theory, and we would retain the vibrating string concept, which I really, really like. I mean, I really like it. But until we can validate this, we can’t. So now you ask, is it dead or not? In my opinion, it is very difficult to kill such a theory. I mean, really, truly kill it, ’cause kill it means make a prediction and it fails. But what can happen and what is happening is people have been working on it since the ’70s. So we’re talking of order 50 years, people have been working on it, and it has not solved the problem.
And so this is a case of string theory does allow for many predictions, but if we could rule them out by connection to a measurement, then it would no longer do it. We would modify string theory, and we would retain the vibrating string concept, which I really, really like. I mean, I really like it. But until we can validate this, we can’t. So now you ask, is it dead or not? In my opinion, it is very difficult to kill such a theory. I mean, really, truly kill it, ’cause kill it means make a prediction and it fails. But what can happen and what is happening is people have been working on it since the ’70s. So we’re talking of order 50 years, people have been working on it, and it has not solved the problem.
Don Lincoln
And so I think what’s happening is people are looking at that and saying, “I, do I wanna spend my life working in this direction with the very likely possibility that 30 years from now we’ll be not much farther along than we are now?” It’s a lot like back in the 1940s when people started thinking about the meaning of quantum mechanics. And I wanted to do that when I was a kid in, in the ’70s. But then when I went to grad school, I realized that people, very smart people, people smarter than me, had been working on that for most of their lives and made no definitive progress. And so you have to decide, as a scientist who wants to answer questions, do I really wanna take on a question that is so hard that it will not be answered in my lifetime?
And so I think what’s happening is people are looking at that and saying, “I, do I wanna spend my life working in this direction with the very likely possibility that 30 years from now we’ll be not much farther along than we are now?” It’s a lot like back in the 1940s when people started thinking about the meaning of quantum mechanics. And I wanted to do that when I was a kid in, in the ’70s. But then when I went to grad school, I realized that people, very smart people, people smarter than me, had been working on that for most of their lives and made no definitive progress. And so you have to decide, as a scientist who wants to answer questions, do I really wanna take on a question that is so hard that it will not be answered in my lifetime?
Don Lincoln
And I think that’s what’s happening with a lot of superstring theories. People are saying, “It’s really neat. It might be right, but I don’t wanna devote my life to something that I might not see progress forward in my lifetime.”
And I think that’s what’s happening with a lot of superstring theories. People are saying, “It’s really neat. It might be right, but I don’t wanna devote my life to something that I might not see progress forward in my lifetime.”
Lex Fridman
What do you think about the alternate theories? Do you think there’s anything interesting in those?
What do you think about the alternate theories? Do you think there’s anything interesting in those?
Don Lincoln
You know, many of those theories are espoused by passionate people. They have fans. People love them, but they don’t do what science needs to do, which is make predictions. Now, loop quantum gravity is a little different. That one is better developed, and that one is not a theory of everything, so we should make that clear. Loop quantum gravity is not a theory of everything. It is simply a theory of quantum gravity, period. It does not aspire to include all of the known forces. It simply tries to take gravity, which is currently intrinsically, it treats space as smooth and continuous. For those of your viewers who are mathematically inclined, in Einstein’s theory of general relativity, gravity is infinitely divisible.
You know, many of those theories are espoused by passionate people. They have fans. People love them, but they don’t do what science needs to do, which is make predictions. Now, loop quantum gravity is a little different. That one is better developed, and that one is not a theory of everything, so we should make that clear. Loop quantum gravity is not a theory of everything. It is simply a theory of quantum gravity, period. It does not aspire to include all of the known forces. It simply tries to take gravity, which is currently intrinsically, it treats space as smooth and continuous. For those of your viewers who are mathematically inclined, in Einstein’s theory of general relativity, gravity is infinitely divisible.
Don Lincoln
There is no smallest bit, and so essentially the laws of calculus apply. However, it is possible that at a small enough scale space is no longer divisible in the same way that you can, you know, take a cup of water out of a swimming pool and then a quarter a cup and so forth. But eventually, once you’ve taken out a single molecule of water, you can no longer take out a smaller thing. So loop quantum gravity attempts to quantize gravity, so that’s what it does. And so this is unlike string theory, which attempts to bring gravity in with the other forces. And in fact, the reason, the fundamental, the one reason why string theory became so interesting to the theoretical community is string theory was not being developed as a theory of everything.
There is no smallest bit, and so essentially the laws of calculus apply. However, it is possible that at a small enough scale space is no longer divisible in the same way that you can, you know, take a cup of water out of a swimming pool and then a quarter a cup and so forth. But eventually, once you’ve taken out a single molecule of water, you can no longer take out a smaller thing. So loop quantum gravity attempts to quantize gravity, so that’s what it does. And so this is unlike string theory, which attempts to bring gravity in with the other forces. And in fact, the reason, the fundamental, the one reason why string theory became so interesting to the theoretical community is string theory was not being developed as a theory of everything.
Don Lincoln
It was being developed as a theory of the strong force, and it was in competition with QCD, which is the currently accepted theory of the strong force. And it turned out the two groups, the string theory groups and the QCD groups competed for a while, and string theory basically failed the race, and people paid attention to quantum chromodynamics, QCD. But then somebody noticed in string theory that one of the things it predicted was a zero mass spin-2 particle. And you can prove that any zero mass spin-2 particle is the graviton.
It was being developed as a theory of the strong force, and it was in competition with QCD, which is the currently accepted theory of the strong force. And it turned out the two groups, the string theory groups and the QCD groups competed for a while, and string theory basically failed the race, and people paid attention to quantum chromodynamics, QCD. But then somebody noticed in string theory that one of the things it predicted was a zero mass spin-2 particle. And you can prove that any zero mass spin-2 particle is the graviton.
Don Lincoln
And so if you see a theory that has a zero mass spin-2 particle, you now have a candidate for dragging gravity in, and then, oh my gosh, people got terribly excited because now this theory, which was working in the direction of the other quantum forces, brought in gravity, and now it was a candidate theory for everything. But that’s not what loop quantum gravity is. Loop quantum gravity is simply trying to understand the nature of space itself, which is already a fantastic thing. And, you know, I talk to Rovelli every so often. I write about his theory and I point out some of the issues with the theory, but I’m usually about, like, two months behind as he and his colleagues are developing and so forth.
And so if you see a theory that has a zero mass spin-2 particle, you now have a candidate for dragging gravity in, and then, oh my gosh, people got terribly excited because now this theory, which was working in the direction of the other quantum forces, brought in gravity, and now it was a candidate theory for everything. But that’s not what loop quantum gravity is. Loop quantum gravity is simply trying to understand the nature of space itself, which is already a fantastic thing. And, you know, I talk to Rovelli every so often. I write about his theory and I point out some of the issues with the theory, but I’m usually about, like, two months behind as he and his colleagues are developing and so forth.
Don Lincoln
‘Cause one of the things is originally loop quantum gravity predicted that the speed of light would not be universal. The speed of light would depend on the frequency of the light. So high frequency would travel at one speed, and low frequency would travel at a different speed, and it had to do with the wavelength of light basically interacting with the structure of space if, you know. And so that was an issue with loop quantum gravity.
‘Cause one of the things is originally loop quantum gravity predicted that the speed of light would not be universal. The speed of light would depend on the frequency of the light. So high frequency would travel at one speed, and low frequency would travel at a different speed, and it had to do with the wavelength of light basically interacting with the structure of space if, you know. And so that was an issue with loop quantum gravity.
Don Lincoln
And so if you look at gamma ray bursters, which are, you know, super explosions of astronomical events that are a billion light years away or more, and they spit out light in all wavelengths, and if that loop quantum gravity prediction were correct, when you saw one of these gamma ray bursters, you would see the wavelength of one light appearing on Earth at a different time than another wavelength because of the different speeds, and that wasn’t the case. They appear at the same time. And so I went on to say, “Well, this pretty much killed loop quantum gravity,” only to get a prickly note from Mr. or Dr. Rovelli saying, “You know, we’ve disproved that. We’ve changed the theory.”
And so if you look at gamma ray bursters, which are, you know, super explosions of astronomical events that are a billion light years away or more, and they spit out light in all wavelengths, and if that loop quantum gravity prediction were correct, when you saw one of these gamma ray bursters, you would see the wavelength of one light appearing on Earth at a different time than another wavelength because of the different speeds, and that wasn’t the case. They appear at the same time. And so I went on to say, “Well, this pretty much killed loop quantum gravity,” only to get a prickly note from Mr. or Dr. Rovelli saying, “You know, we’ve disproved that. We’ve changed the theory.”
Don Lincoln
That’s no longer true, and now that prediction, that old prediction of loop quantum gravity is no longer valid.” And so that observation of the uniformity of the speed of light no longer kills the new loop quantum gravity. It would’ve killed the old one, but it didn’t kill the new one.
That’s no longer true, and now that prediction, that old prediction of loop quantum gravity is no longer valid.” And so that observation of the uniformity of the speed of light no longer kills the new loop quantum gravity. It would’ve killed the old one, but it didn’t kill the new one.
Lex Fridman
By the way, that example of different speeds of light based on wavelength, that’s a beautiful thing that a theory—That’s a testable thing.
By the way, that example of different speeds of light based on wavelength, that’s a beautiful thing that a theory—That’s a testable thing.
Don Lincoln
It is.
It is.
Lex Fridman
Right? So, like, those kinds of things, and if it in fact did explain a phenomena of that sort, that’s a good sign for the theory, right? If it correctly predicted.
Right? So, like, those kinds of things, and if it in fact did explain a phenomena of that sort, that’s a good sign for the theory, right? If it correctly predicted.
Don Lincoln
There was another brilliant observation recently. Love it. The observation of gravity waves. And it was from two neutron stars orbiting and coalescing. And so they made gravitational waves, fantastic, but they also, because they were not black holes, they were neutron stars, they hit and exploded, gave off a tremendous bright flash of light. And so astronomers saw the flash.
There was another brilliant observation recently. Love it. The observation of gravity waves. And it was from two neutron stars orbiting and coalescing. And so they made gravitational waves, fantastic, but they also, because they were not black holes, they were neutron stars, they hit and exploded, gave off a tremendous bright flash of light. And so astronomers saw the flash.
Don Lincoln
Gravitational wave astronomers saw the ripples of space-time. It was 140 million light years away, which means light would’ve traveled 140 million years to get here, and the two incidents, light and gravity, both arrived within 1.7 seconds of one another. And that tells you that gravity travels at the speed of light. That was a brilliant, fantastic measurement. Now, we thought gravity traveled at the speed of light, but now we have a measurement, we proved it, and damn it, I am impressed.
Gravitational wave astronomers saw the ripples of space-time. It was 140 million light years away, which means light would’ve traveled 140 million years to get here, and the two incidents, light and gravity, both arrived within 1.7 seconds of one another. And that tells you that gravity travels at the speed of light. That was a brilliant, fantastic measurement. Now, we thought gravity traveled at the speed of light, but now we have a measurement, we proved it, and damn it, I am impressed.
Physics of empty space
Lex Fridman
Our universe is so fascinating. Speaking of which, since we brought up antimatter, we’ll have to talk about it. You’ve talked about it in several of your lectures from different angles, including the dark energy crisis and including empty space and vacuum and so on. So let’s look at the empty space angle. So you know, it turns out that empty space is not empty.
Our universe is so fascinating. Speaking of which, since we brought up antimatter, we’ll have to talk about it. You’ve talked about it in several of your lectures from different angles, including the dark energy crisis and including empty space and vacuum and so on. So let’s look at the empty space angle. So you know, it turns out that empty space is not empty.
Don Lincoln
It’s true. Which is kind of bizarre.
It’s true. Which is kind of bizarre.
Lex Fridman
Can you speak about what do we know about what makes up empty space?
Can you speak about what do we know about what makes up empty space?
Don Lincoln
That’s a hard, hard question because we don’t know what space is. But let’s start out-
That’s a hard, hard question because we don’t know what space is. But let’s start out-
Don Lincoln
… let’s just start out with something simple. We’ll assume that space is not quantized, okay? Now, it probably is, I don’t know, but, you know, we gotta start with somewhere. So let’s start out with sort of the space of calculus, the space that you can divide forever. The modern version of quantum mechanics is called quantum field theory, and it postulates that, A, space exists. Then it postulates that within space there exist fields for every known subatomic particle. So there is a photon field, there’s an electron field, there’s an up quark field, there’s a down quark field. There’s all the fields. And those fields can vibrate, and when they vibrate, those are the subatomic particles. So an electron field vibrating in a characteristic way is an electron.
… let’s just start out with something simple. We’ll assume that space is not quantized, okay? Now, it probably is, I don’t know, but, you know, we gotta start with somewhere. So let’s start out with sort of the space of calculus, the space that you can divide forever. The modern version of quantum mechanics is called quantum field theory, and it postulates that, A, space exists. Then it postulates that within space there exist fields for every known subatomic particle. So there is a photon field, there’s an electron field, there’s an up quark field, there’s a down quark field. There’s all the fields. And those fields can vibrate, and when they vibrate, those are the subatomic particles. So an electron field vibrating in a characteristic way is an electron.
Don Lincoln
Now, it’s also possible for the electron field to vibrate not in the characteristic way, but in a way that’s still vibrating, but it’s not an exact electron. So this is what we call virtual particles. Now, virtual particles, there are lots of ways to talk about them, and the way I’m talking about now is the most correct and the most sophisticated way that we can talk about them. I will talk about them briefly in a simpler way to help. But right now, that’s the important thing, is that there are these fields. Specific vibrations are the known particles. Vibrations that are a little different are these virtual particles. They’re particles that don’t truly exist. And so that is what we think space is. There is all of these fields.
Now, it’s also possible for the electron field to vibrate not in the characteristic way, but in a way that’s still vibrating, but it’s not an exact electron. So this is what we call virtual particles. Now, virtual particles, there are lots of ways to talk about them, and the way I’m talking about now is the most correct and the most sophisticated way that we can talk about them. I will talk about them briefly in a simpler way to help. But right now, that’s the important thing, is that there are these fields. Specific vibrations are the known particles. Vibrations that are a little different are these virtual particles. They’re particles that don’t truly exist. And so that is what we think space is. There is all of these fields.
Don Lincoln
They’re all vibrating a little. If you insert the right amount of energy, you can get it to vibrate in the characteristic way and make that subatomic particle. But even when you don’t—There is the particles, I mean the fields are there and they are vibrating. So those vibrations are what we called virtual particles. Now, your viewers may have heard of virtual particles in other ways, in which case it says that space is just empty, and what happens is matter and antimatter particles briefly appear for a very short period of time before they coalesce back again and disappear and re-emerge back into the field. And so these are both correct.
They’re all vibrating a little. If you insert the right amount of energy, you can get it to vibrate in the characteristic way and make that subatomic particle. But even when you don’t—There is the particles, I mean the fields are there and they are vibrating. So those vibrations are what we called virtual particles. Now, your viewers may have heard of virtual particles in other ways, in which case it says that space is just empty, and what happens is matter and antimatter particles briefly appear for a very short period of time before they coalesce back again and disappear and re-emerge back into the field. And so these are both correct.
Don Lincoln
So what happens is, is that’s what quantum field theory says, is it says that these ripples are appearing or these particles are appearing and disappearing. And so that just sounds nuts. You look at empty space, you’re not seeing anything happening. But they’re happening fast enough that they can’t be seen, but they do have consequences. And there are two experimental measurements that I can think of that validate that this thing that sounds crazy is really happening, and one is called the Casimir effect. So in the Casimir effect, you take two metal plates, the parallel plates, and you put them near one another, very, very close.
So what happens is, is that’s what quantum field theory says, is it says that these ripples are appearing or these particles are appearing and disappearing. And so that just sounds nuts. You look at empty space, you’re not seeing anything happening. But they’re happening fast enough that they can’t be seen, but they do have consequences. And there are two experimental measurements that I can think of that validate that this thing that sounds crazy is really happening, and one is called the Casimir effect. So in the Casimir effect, you take two metal plates, the parallel plates, and you put them near one another, very, very close.
Don Lincoln
Now, if this is the case, if, if these virtual particles exist, then in between the plates, these particles appearing and disappearing, and outside the plates, the particles are appearing and disappearing. However, because these plates are close to one another, this puts a constraint on the wavelength of the particles that can occur between the two plates because they, the particles cannot extend outside the plates. So the short wavelength particles can exist inside the– between the plates, but the longer ones cannot. However, outside the plates, there is no constraint, so short wavelength and long wavelength particles can exist there.
Now, if this is the case, if, if these virtual particles exist, then in between the plates, these particles appearing and disappearing, and outside the plates, the particles are appearing and disappearing. However, because these plates are close to one another, this puts a constraint on the wavelength of the particles that can occur between the two plates because they, the particles cannot extend outside the plates. So the short wavelength particles can exist inside the– between the plates, but the longer ones cannot. However, outside the plates, there is no constraint, so short wavelength and long wavelength particles can exist there.
Don Lincoln
And the net effect is there are more virtual particles outside and less particles inside, and therefore you have a net pressure which would then push those two plates together. That is a prediction we’ve been talking about, and guess what? It happens. Those plates push together. So that is a validation for the existence of these particles in empty space. Now, there is another measurement, and this changes the magnetic properties of particles like the electron, the muon and so forth. And so this was discovered in nineteen forty-eight. So if you take old school standard quantum mechanics you know the spin of an electron, you know its charge, you can calculate its magnetic moment, and it comes out to a number.
And the net effect is there are more virtual particles outside and less particles inside, and therefore you have a net pressure which would then push those two plates together. That is a prediction we’ve been talking about, and guess what? It happens. Those plates push together. So that is a validation for the existence of these particles in empty space. Now, there is another measurement, and this changes the magnetic properties of particles like the electron, the muon and so forth. And so this was discovered in nineteen forty-eight. So if you take old school standard quantum mechanics you know the spin of an electron, you know its charge, you can calculate its magnetic moment, and it comes out to a number.
Don Lincoln
If you do the measurement, what you find is the measurement disagrees with the quantum mechanics, the nineteen thirties quantum mechanical prediction by point one percent, and that was measured in nineteen forty-eight. And people went, “Huh.” So this happened at Shelter Island Conference in New York. And on the way home, someone who saw the, this measurement thought about it, and they invented what we now call quantum electrodynamics. So old quantum mechanics quantizes matter. The second quantization quantizes both matter and the fields, in this case, quantized the electric fields.
If you do the measurement, what you find is the measurement disagrees with the quantum mechanics, the nineteen thirties quantum mechanical prediction by point one percent, and that was measured in nineteen forty-eight. And people went, “Huh.” So this happened at Shelter Island Conference in New York. And on the way home, someone who saw the, this measurement thought about it, and they invented what we now call quantum electrodynamics. So old quantum mechanics quantizes matter. The second quantization quantizes both matter and the fields, in this case, quantized the electric fields.
Don Lincoln
And so in this quantized field, it predicts that surrounding a bare, say, electron, which is spinning and has a, has a charge, there is this, this bath of particles, virtual particles appearing and disappearing all around it. And the ensemble of all of those particles appearing and disappearing will alter the magnetic properties that you can measure for the subatomic particle, and it changes it by point one percent. And we have measured this, and we have not measured this imprecisely. We have measured the magnetic properties of both the electron and the muon to twelve, count them, twelve significant figures. And the theory and the data agree number for number for ten places.
And so in this quantized field, it predicts that surrounding a bare, say, electron, which is spinning and has a, has a charge, there is this, this bath of particles, virtual particles appearing and disappearing all around it. And the ensemble of all of those particles appearing and disappearing will alter the magnetic properties that you can measure for the subatomic particle, and it changes it by point one percent. And we have measured this, and we have not measured this imprecisely. We have measured the magnetic properties of both the electron and the muon to twelve, count them, twelve significant figures. And the theory and the data agree number for number for ten places.
Don Lincoln
And then once you get out to the very end where both the theory and the data have some imprecision, they then disagree. And so maybe there’s some interesting stuff going on there. But ten figures, it’s just staggering.
And then once you get out to the very end where both the theory and the data have some imprecision, they then disagree. And so maybe there’s some interesting stuff going on there. But ten figures, it’s just staggering.
Lex Fridman
So virtual particles refer to matter and antimatter particles coming to life.
So virtual particles refer to matter and antimatter particles coming to life.
Don Lincoln
Correct.
Correct.
Antimatter
Lex Fridman
Can we just talk about the antimatter part of that? So starting with Paul Dirac, one of the most legendary examples of math leading to physics. So the math suggesting that something like an antimatter should exist, and Paul Dirac taking it seriously and then eventually showing that it does exist. So what evidence do we have for antimatter?
Can we just talk about the antimatter part of that? So starting with Paul Dirac, one of the most legendary examples of math leading to physics. So the math suggesting that something like an antimatter should exist, and Paul Dirac taking it seriously and then eventually showing that it does exist. So what evidence do we have for antimatter?
Don Lincoln
So antimatter was predicted in nineteen twenty-eight. Paul Dirac was trying to merge quantum mechanics and relativity because the original Schrödinger equation did not, was not relativistic. And in doing so, he basically, the equations were complex, but in the end it came down to something like equation squared equals one. You take the square root of both sides, you get equation equals plus one or minus one. Plus one was the electron, minus one was something. He didn’t know what it was. There was some conversation for a while, thought maybe it might be the proton, but that didn’t seem to work out.
So antimatter was predicted in nineteen twenty-eight. Paul Dirac was trying to merge quantum mechanics and relativity because the original Schrödinger equation did not, was not relativistic. And in doing so, he basically, the equations were complex, but in the end it came down to something like equation squared equals one. You take the square root of both sides, you get equation equals plus one or minus one. Plus one was the electron, minus one was something. He didn’t know what it was. There was some conversation for a while, thought maybe it might be the proton, but that didn’t seem to work out.
Don Lincoln
And so he insisted that his equations were right and that there was an antimatter, he didn’t call it an antimatter, but a positively charged sibling of the electron, what we now call the positron, the antimatter electron. So it was predicted. It was discovered in nineteen thirty-two by Carl Anderson and his student Seth Neddermeyer. They saw an antimatter electron. And that was pretty cool. So that right there, they knew it was real. Antimatter was predicted, it was observed, that’s that. In nineteen fifty-six, the antimatter proton was created, and that required a large particle accelerator, high enough energy to make it, and that was done at Berkeley. And a year later, the antimatter neutron was discovered.
And so he insisted that his equations were right and that there was an antimatter, he didn’t call it an antimatter, but a positively charged sibling of the electron, what we now call the positron, the antimatter electron. So it was predicted. It was discovered in nineteen thirty-two by Carl Anderson and his student Seth Neddermeyer. They saw an antimatter electron. And that was pretty cool. So that right there, they knew it was real. Antimatter was predicted, it was observed, that’s that. In nineteen fifty-six, the antimatter proton was created, and that required a large particle accelerator, high enough energy to make it, and that was done at Berkeley. And a year later, the antimatter neutron was discovered.
Don Lincoln
So at this point, and now jumping ahead to now, we can make, using energy by smashing particles together, we can make antimatter protons, we can make antimatter electrons. We have gone so far to make antimatter helium nuclei. So we have made two antiprotons and two antineutrons, combined them together to make an antimatter helium nuclei. This has been done, been observed, no question. At CERN, they have gone so far as to make antimatter hydrogen. They take a beam off one of their lower energy accelerators. They make antimatter protons. They collect them, they slow them down, they cool them to almost absolute zero. They take sodium-22, which makes antimatter electrons.
So at this point, and now jumping ahead to now, we can make, using energy by smashing particles together, we can make antimatter protons, we can make antimatter electrons. We have gone so far to make antimatter helium nuclei. So we have made two antiprotons and two antineutrons, combined them together to make an antimatter helium nuclei. This has been done, been observed, no question. At CERN, they have gone so far as to make antimatter hydrogen. They take a beam off one of their lower energy accelerators. They make antimatter protons. They collect them, they slow them down, they cool them to almost absolute zero. They take sodium-22, which makes antimatter electrons.
Don Lincoln
They slow them down, they bring them together, they coalesce them, and they make literal antimatter hydrogen atoms with an antimatter proton surrounded by an antimatter electron. And they have done incredible measurements. They have agitated the atoms and caused it to emit light. They have looked at the light that comes out of antimatter atoms. And the question is, is does the light coming out of antimatter hydrogen atoms have exactly the same spectral characteristics as ordinary hydrogen, which we predict that it does? And the answer is it does. So the tests have been staggering. We now know a great deal about antimatter hydrogen.
They slow them down, they bring them together, they coalesce them, and they make literal antimatter hydrogen atoms with an antimatter proton surrounded by an antimatter electron. And they have done incredible measurements. They have agitated the atoms and caused it to emit light. They have looked at the light that comes out of antimatter atoms. And the question is, is does the light coming out of antimatter hydrogen atoms have exactly the same spectral characteristics as ordinary hydrogen, which we predict that it does? And the answer is it does. So the tests have been staggering. We now know a great deal about antimatter hydrogen.
Don Lincoln
Recently, recently like twenty twenty-three, I believe it was, one of the experiments called ALPHA at CERN made antimatter hydrogen, put it in a bottle and released it and watched which way it would go. Did it fall up or did it fall down? Because while it kind of makes sense maybe to think that maybe antimatter falls up in the same way that we have Coulomb’s law, you’ve got electric charges, and they might attract or repel. However, there was lots of ample theoretical reasons to believe that antimatter also would fall down.
Recently, recently like twenty twenty-three, I believe it was, one of the experiments called ALPHA at CERN made antimatter hydrogen, put it in a bottle and released it and watched which way it would go. Did it fall up or did it fall down? Because while it kind of makes sense maybe to think that maybe antimatter falls up in the same way that we have Coulomb’s law, you’ve got electric charges, and they might attract or repel. However, there was lots of ample theoretical reasons to believe that antimatter also would fall down.
Don Lincoln
So they did this fantastic measurement, and they first they put in hydrogen, and they calculated that if they did this, something like eighty percent of the hydrogen atoms would fall through the bottom of the bottle, and twenty percent would go through the top just because gravity is very weak and the atoms will escape wherever they do, but there will be a bias pulling hydrogen atoms down. So they did exactly the same thing, and what did they find? They find that antimatter falls down. Now, they do not have a good enough measurement at this time to say that the gravity that antimatter experiences is one hundred percent that of matter.
So they did this fantastic measurement, and they first they put in hydrogen, and they calculated that if they did this, something like eighty percent of the hydrogen atoms would fall through the bottom of the bottle, and twenty percent would go through the top just because gravity is very weak and the atoms will escape wherever they do, but there will be a bias pulling hydrogen atoms down. So they did exactly the same thing, and what did they find? They find that antimatter falls down. Now, they do not have a good enough measurement at this time to say that the gravity that antimatter experiences is one hundred percent that of matter.
Don Lincoln
What they have measured is that antimatter fell down with a seventy-five percent the strength of regular matter, but there were big uncertainties. There was plus or minus point one three due to the experiment, which was good but imperfect, and plus or minus point one six due to their theoretical model. So it’s like point seven five plus or minus something like point two nine. And that means there’s a good chance it’s between point five and one- … which means it’s consistent with one. So they are improving their measurements.
What they have measured is that antimatter fell down with a seventy-five percent the strength of regular matter, but there were big uncertainties. There was plus or minus point one three due to the experiment, which was good but imperfect, and plus or minus point one six due to their theoretical model. So it’s like point seven five plus or minus something like point two nine. And that means there’s a good chance it’s between point five and one- … which means it’s consistent with one. So they are improving their measurements.
Lex Fridman
Well, if I can, I would love to take a bit of a tangent on that topic ’cause I went down a rabbit hole watching some of your videos on antimatter. And I mean, Fermilab was the hub for the production of antimatter for quite a while.
Well, if I can, I would love to take a bit of a tangent on that topic ’cause I went down a rabbit hole watching some of your videos on antimatter. And I mean, Fermilab was the hub for the production of antimatter for quite a while.
Don Lincoln
It was.
It was.
Lex Fridman
I saw that NASA said that the global estimate for the current rate of production of antimatter is one nanogram per year. Can you speak to how hard was it to make antimatter? And also, you did mention in a video that, you know, if matter and antimatter meet, they produce a lot of energy. I think twenty grams of antimatter is equivalent to a one-megaton nuclear warhead in terms of explosive energy. Yeah, so all of those questions together. So how hard is it to produce antimatter?
I saw that NASA said that the global estimate for the current rate of production of antimatter is one nanogram per year. Can you speak to how hard was it to make antimatter? And also, you did mention in a video that, you know, if matter and antimatter meet, they produce a lot of energy. I think twenty grams of antimatter is equivalent to a one-megaton nuclear warhead in terms of explosive energy. Yeah, so all of those questions together. So how hard is it to produce antimatter?
Don Lincoln
It’s freaking hard. Okay. All right. So here’s the deal. So at the time until two thousand and eleven, Fermilab was the most powerful antiproton production facility on the planet. Every two point three seconds, we would smash ten to the thirteen protons into a target, and we would get out ten to the eighth antiprotons. So basically, in order to get a single antiproton, we needed to smash a hundred thousand protons into material. So every two point three seconds, we would get of order ten to the eighth antiprotons. And what we would do is we would collect them over the course of twelve hours or so, and we would get, in the end, we would have to collect them and cool them down and so forth, of order ten to the twelfth antiprotons every twelve to twenty-four hours.
It’s freaking hard. Okay. All right. So here’s the deal. So at the time until two thousand and eleven, Fermilab was the most powerful antiproton production facility on the planet. Every two point three seconds, we would smash ten to the thirteen protons into a target, and we would get out ten to the eighth antiprotons. So basically, in order to get a single antiproton, we needed to smash a hundred thousand protons into material. So every two point three seconds, we would get of order ten to the eighth antiprotons. And what we would do is we would collect them over the course of twelve hours or so, and we would get, in the end, we would have to collect them and cool them down and so forth, of order ten to the twelfth antiprotons every twelve to twenty-four hours.
Don Lincoln
So ten to the twelfth sounds like a lot. It really does. That is a trillion. But you need to remember that a gram of antimatter is ten to the twenty-three antiprotons. So that means over the course of a day, we were able to create something like one hundred billionth of a gram. And so if we did that for a year, then that would be about a nanogram. So about a nanogram a year, give or take. That’s a reasonable estimate. So a nanogram, one billionth of a gram, so that means at that rate, with that facility, it would take a billion years running with very little downtime to make a single gram of antimatter. If you combine one gram of antimatter and one gram of matter together, the energy release is equivalent to the combined Hiroshima and Nagasaki explosions.
So ten to the twelfth sounds like a lot. It really does. That is a trillion. But you need to remember that a gram of antimatter is ten to the twenty-three antiprotons. So that means over the course of a day, we were able to create something like one hundred billionth of a gram. And so if we did that for a year, then that would be about a nanogram. So about a nanogram a year, give or take. That’s a reasonable estimate. So a nanogram, one billionth of a gram, so that means at that rate, with that facility, it would take a billion years running with very little downtime to make a single gram of antimatter. If you combine one gram of antimatter and one gram of matter together, the energy release is equivalent to the combined Hiroshima and Nagasaki explosions.
Don Lincoln
So that tells you if you wanted a megaton, you need about 25 times more. So you would have to run for 25 billion years to get a megaton of explosive power.
So that tells you if you wanted a megaton, you need about 25 times more. So you would have to run for 25 billion years to get a megaton of explosive power.
Lex Fridman
Let me lay it all out, because I think it’s pretty interesting actually. This is a NASA estimate of how much it costs to produce antimatter. So looking at all the, the, the costs of the accelerator, all, everything combined together, to do enough for a one-megaton antimatter bomb, if such a thing would be even possible, on the order of 25 grams, like we mentioned-
Let me lay it all out, because I think it’s pretty interesting actually. This is a NASA estimate of how much it costs to produce antimatter. So looking at all the, the, the costs of the accelerator, all, everything combined together, to do enough for a one-megaton antimatter bomb, if such a thing would be even possible, on the order of 25 grams, like we mentioned-
Lex Fridman
… will cost about, based on the NASA estimate $1.5 quadrillion. By the way NASA wasn’t talking about a bomb. It’s just me adding— NASA was talking about the estimate, the cost of 62 to 63 trillion dollars per gram of antihydrogen, actually is what they’re referring to. So compared– I was looking at estimates, the current best estimate is how much it takes to produce a one-megaton nuclear warhead. Everything combined is about 10 to 50 million dollars in the United States. So you’re talking about difference in terms of a weapon with equal power, 50 million dollars versus $1.5 quadrillion. To me, what’s interesting, weapons is just one indication of this. One other possibility, and NASA also writes about this, is the use of antimatter in propulsion systems.
… will cost about, based on the NASA estimate $1.5 quadrillion. By the way NASA wasn’t talking about a bomb. It’s just me adding— NASA was talking about the estimate, the cost of 62 to 63 trillion dollars per gram of antihydrogen, actually is what they’re referring to. So compared– I was looking at estimates, the current best estimate is how much it takes to produce a one-megaton nuclear warhead. Everything combined is about 10 to 50 million dollars in the United States. So you’re talking about difference in terms of a weapon with equal power, 50 million dollars versus $1.5 quadrillion. To me, what’s interesting, weapons is just one indication of this. One other possibility, and NASA also writes about this, is the use of antimatter in propulsion systems.
Lex Fridman
Just like you can use nuclear fission and maybe even nuclear fusion down the line. In propulsion systems, I saw that one gram can help get us to Alpha Centauri star system if we can get to 0.2 times the speed of light in 20 years. Meaning it would take us 20 years to get to Alpha Centauri. Is any of this a possible future, the use of antimatter for generation of energy? Because we should mention that it’s extremely compact. It has the obvious downsides that it’s extremely costly to produce. We don’t know how to do that kind of scale. The upside is it’s compact.
Just like you can use nuclear fission and maybe even nuclear fusion down the line. In propulsion systems, I saw that one gram can help get us to Alpha Centauri star system if we can get to 0.2 times the speed of light in 20 years. Meaning it would take us 20 years to get to Alpha Centauri. Is any of this a possible future, the use of antimatter for generation of energy? Because we should mention that it’s extremely compact. It has the obvious downsides that it’s extremely costly to produce. We don’t know how to do that kind of scale. The upside is it’s compact.
Don Lincoln
It’s very powerful. So the short answer is it is not a physics problem, it’s an engineering problem. So I have people for that.
It’s very powerful. So the short answer is it is not a physics problem, it’s an engineering problem. So I have people for that.
Lex Fridman
Okay. Well, yeah.
Okay. Well, yeah.
Don Lincoln
Okay. But no, no. The truth is that antimatter, if you are able to assemble it and store it, sure, it would be able to take that antimatter, heat up matter, and shoot it out the back of a rocket, and it would, you know, do what rockets do, and it would make us go quick, and that would be fine.
Okay. But no, no. The truth is that antimatter, if you are able to assemble it and store it, sure, it would be able to take that antimatter, heat up matter, and shoot it out the back of a rocket, and it would, you know, do what rockets do, and it would make us go quick, and that would be fine.
Lex Fridman
And we should mention the thing that you just mentioned is, is correct. One of the hugest challenges is the containment-
And we should mention the thing that you just mentioned is, is correct. One of the hugest challenges is the containment-
Don Lincoln
Oh, 100%, yeah.
Oh, 100%, yeah.
Lex Fridman
… because antimatter, when it comes in contact with matter- Is a problem.
… because antimatter, when it comes in contact with matter- Is a problem.
Don Lincoln
Right. So if you were unable to contain your trip to Alpha Centauri for even a millionth of a second, boom, that would not be good. You know, it reminds me of the Star Trek where Scotty’s saying, “Captain, you know, the antimatter pods are about– look, we’re losing containment. It’s gonna blow.” And that’s exactly what would happen. So the short answer is yes, antimatter as, in principle, we could make and use as a source of energy. But there are probably far less expensive sources of energy. You know, it depends on what you need to do. The Voyager probes are still chugging along with plutonium. Now, they’re running out of energy at this point, but we could, you know, presumably do a somewhat better job if we needed to.
Right. So if you were unable to contain your trip to Alpha Centauri for even a millionth of a second, boom, that would not be good. You know, it reminds me of the Star Trek where Scotty’s saying, “Captain, you know, the antimatter pods are about– look, we’re losing containment. It’s gonna blow.” And that’s exactly what would happen. So the short answer is yes, antimatter as, in principle, we could make and use as a source of energy. But there are probably far less expensive sources of energy. You know, it depends on what you need to do. The Voyager probes are still chugging along with plutonium. Now, they’re running out of energy at this point, but we could, you know, presumably do a somewhat better job if we needed to.
Don Lincoln
So I like the idea of antimatter, you know, but the reality is the danger, not the obvious danger of weapons, but the danger of if you wanted to be in a ship run by antimatter, if it ever got loose, well, you would never know it. That would be that.
So I like the idea of antimatter, you know, but the reality is the danger, not the obvious danger of weapons, but the danger of if you wanted to be in a ship run by antimatter, if it ever got loose, well, you would never know it. That would be that.
Lex Fridman
The reason I find this kind of inspiring is antimatter is in the space of physics that has a lot of mysteries. There’s a lot of exploration to be done. And so this kind of connection to energy means that if we have a bunch of breakthroughs on the antimatter side, that might lead to a better propulsion system, better energy generation systems.
The reason I find this kind of inspiring is antimatter is in the space of physics that has a lot of mysteries. There’s a lot of exploration to be done. And so this kind of connection to energy means that if we have a bunch of breakthroughs on the antimatter side, that might lead to a better propulsion system, better energy generation systems.
Don Lincoln
In principle.
In principle.
Lex Fridman
There’s some combination of engineering here, but there’s some combination of understanding the fundamental physics.
There’s some combination of engineering here, but there’s some combination of understanding the fundamental physics.
Don Lincoln
I mean, we know how to do this. You know, we know you take energy, you make antimatter. You have to contain it. You have to store it. You have to do all the hard things. But I would be shocked if there was some, like, new addition to the- … theory that made antimatter production easier.
I mean, we know how to do this. You know, we know you take energy, you make antimatter. You have to contain it. You have to store it. You have to do all the hard things. But I would be shocked if there was some, like, new addition to the- … theory that made antimatter production easier.
Lex Fridman
Interesting. So we know how to produce antimatter with accelerators. You’re saying there’s not breakthroughs in physics that could lead to different mechanisms for the generation of antimatter?
Interesting. So we know how to produce antimatter with accelerators. You’re saying there’s not breakthroughs in physics that could lead to different mechanisms for the generation of antimatter?
Don Lincoln
You have to concentrate energy. That’s it. If there’s another way to concentrate energy, that would work too.
You have to concentrate energy. That’s it. If there’s another way to concentrate energy, that would work too.
Lex Fridman
And our best knowledge of how to concentrate energy is the accelerator.
And our best knowledge of how to concentrate energy is the accelerator.
Don Lincoln
And remember, we’re talking concentrating it into volumes the size of a proton. I mean, if you concentrate it to the size of your thumb, well, then, you know, it’s really the density that matters, the local density. And so when you smash two protons together, all of that’s occurring in a tiny, tiny volume, so it’s the local density of energy that matters. If you had a lot of energy in a thimble or something- … It’s probably not dense enough. You know- … it really has to be in close proximity for that to happen, and then when it does, it’s okay. So if there’s another way, we know how to do it, to make that density thing with accelerators. If someone has a bright idea on how to make highly dense energy, then yeah, making antimatter is a piece of cake. But that’s the crux-
And remember, we’re talking concentrating it into volumes the size of a proton. I mean, if you concentrate it to the size of your thumb, well, then, you know, it’s really the density that matters, the local density. And so when you smash two protons together, all of that’s occurring in a tiny, tiny volume, so it’s the local density of energy that matters. If you had a lot of energy in a thimble or something- … It’s probably not dense enough. You know- … it really has to be in close proximity for that to happen, and then when it does, it’s okay. So if there’s another way, we know how to do it, to make that density thing with accelerators. If someone has a bright idea on how to make highly dense energy, then yeah, making antimatter is a piece of cake. But that’s the crux-
Don Lincoln
… concentrated energy.
… concentrated energy.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, and how to do so in a cost-efficient manner, not trillions of dollars.
Yeah, and how to do so in a cost-efficient manner, not trillions of dollars.
Don Lincoln
Well, yeah.
Well, yeah.
Lex Fridman
So one of the big mysteries with antimatter is the bigger why. Where is the antimatter that should kind of be there if the whole idea is that anytime you generate matter, you generate the same amount of antimatter, and yet when we look out into the observable universe, it seems like there’s not antimatter for the most part there.
So one of the big mysteries with antimatter is the bigger why. Where is the antimatter that should kind of be there if the whole idea is that anytime you generate matter, you generate the same amount of antimatter, and yet when we look out into the observable universe, it seems like there’s not antimatter for the most part there.
Don Lincoln
Correct.
Correct.
Lex Fridman
So what do we understand about this mystery? What are the possible explanations as to why?
So what do we understand about this mystery? What are the possible explanations as to why?
Don Lincoln
So there’s this thing called baryogenesis and, as you say, so reiterating a little bit what you just said, these are both Einstein things. Einstein says that when you take energy, you make matter and antimatter in equal quantities, and Einstein says after the Big Bang, there was a lot of energy in the universe, which should have made matter and antimatter.
So there’s this thing called baryogenesis and, as you say, so reiterating a little bit what you just said, these are both Einstein things. Einstein says that when you take energy, you make matter and antimatter in equal quantities, and Einstein says after the Big Bang, there was a lot of energy in the universe, which should have made matter and antimatter.
Don Lincoln
We only see matter. Where’d the antimatter go? And the answer is, we don’t know. However, there are some ideas, and there’s a lot of thinking on it, and in fact, for me, it’s doing an experiment right now with neutrinos, trying to better understand what it was that made the matter and antimatter not be the same. Now, we do have a measurement of how much different it should be, and it’s kind of neat. We can do this by counting the number of protons in the universe, just looking at galaxies and so forth, and then we can look at the cosmic microwave background, which is sort of the aftermath of the Big Bang, and we can count the number of photons from the cosmic microwave background.
We only see matter. Where’d the antimatter go? And the answer is, we don’t know. However, there are some ideas, and there’s a lot of thinking on it, and in fact, for me, it’s doing an experiment right now with neutrinos, trying to better understand what it was that made the matter and antimatter not be the same. Now, we do have a measurement of how much different it should be, and it’s kind of neat. We can do this by counting the number of protons in the universe, just looking at galaxies and so forth, and then we can look at the cosmic microwave background, which is sort of the aftermath of the Big Bang, and we can count the number of photons from the cosmic microwave background.
Don Lincoln
And with a little bit of math, what we can do is we can then say that somehow in the early universe, something made a very, very tiny asymmetry, so that for every billion, billion with a B, antimatter particles that existed in the universe, there were a billion and one matter particles. The billions canceled, annihilated, destroyed each other, and that extra one that’s left over is us.
And with a little bit of math, what we can do is we can then say that somehow in the early universe, something made a very, very tiny asymmetry, so that for every billion, billion with a B, antimatter particles that existed in the universe, there were a billion and one matter particles. The billions canceled, annihilated, destroyed each other, and that extra one that’s left over is us.
Don Lincoln
And so what physics mechanism made that ever so slight asymmetry is not understood. There are some thoughts. One thought is that, well, it’s just how it was. When the universe was formed, there was an asymmetry. It was not made by matter and antimatter. Another possibility is there are various numbers of theories all under the word baryogenesis, baryo coming from the word baryon, which basically means protons, and genesis meaning the creation of, and we’d say that simply because the protons are the heaviest particles. And so baryogenesis is just the creation of matter. And there are just a number of theories in quantum mechanics that say that matter and antimatter can oscillate back and forth into one another, and there is a slight, slight asymmetry in how that happens.
And so what physics mechanism made that ever so slight asymmetry is not understood. There are some thoughts. One thought is that, well, it’s just how it was. When the universe was formed, there was an asymmetry. It was not made by matter and antimatter. Another possibility is there are various numbers of theories all under the word baryogenesis, baryo coming from the word baryon, which basically means protons, and genesis meaning the creation of, and we’d say that simply because the protons are the heaviest particles. And so baryogenesis is just the creation of matter. And there are just a number of theories in quantum mechanics that say that matter and antimatter can oscillate back and forth into one another, and there is a slight, slight asymmetry in how that happens.
Don Lincoln
And we know that this is true to a degree. We’ve measured it in the 1960s with a different form of matter. I mean you know, not protons, but a type of ephemeral matter that only exists in particle accelerators. And so we know that there is a slight difference between matter and antimatter, but it’s not enough. It doesn’t explain that. We’re not sure. So at Fermilab, we have this idea which kind of turns things on its head, and it’s not baryogenesis, it’s leptogenesis. So leptons are the electrons. And because Fermilab is currently the world’s most powerful neutrino accelerator, and neutrinos are leptons, there is this idea. Now, leptogenesis is incredibly complicated, but the idea is that it is possible. We know that neutrinos actually change their identity.
And we know that this is true to a degree. We’ve measured it in the 1960s with a different form of matter. I mean you know, not protons, but a type of ephemeral matter that only exists in particle accelerators. And so we know that there is a slight difference between matter and antimatter, but it’s not enough. It doesn’t explain that. We’re not sure. So at Fermilab, we have this idea which kind of turns things on its head, and it’s not baryogenesis, it’s leptogenesis. So leptons are the electrons. And because Fermilab is currently the world’s most powerful neutrino accelerator, and neutrinos are leptons, there is this idea. Now, leptogenesis is incredibly complicated, but the idea is that it is possible. We know that neutrinos actually change their identity.
Don Lincoln
There are three different types of neutrinos like I don’t know, cats and jaguars and tigers, and if you have a beam of just cats, if you go along a little while, you find there’s cats and jaguars and then tigers, and then they’ll be back to all cats again. And so this oscillation thing is called neutrino oscillation. We’ve known it’s been true since 1998, and what we are studying is we’re going to make a beam of neutrinos and another beam of antimatter neutrinos, and we’re going to study the oscillation behavior of the two of them. And it is possible, it is unlikely, but it is possible that the two of them will oscillate at slightly different rates.
There are three different types of neutrinos like I don’t know, cats and jaguars and tigers, and if you have a beam of just cats, if you go along a little while, you find there’s cats and jaguars and then tigers, and then they’ll be back to all cats again. And so this oscillation thing is called neutrino oscillation. We’ve known it’s been true since 1998, and what we are studying is we’re going to make a beam of neutrinos and another beam of antimatter neutrinos, and we’re going to study the oscillation behavior of the two of them. And it is possible, it is unlikely, but it is possible that the two of them will oscillate at slightly different rates.
Don Lincoln
And if the neutrinos oscillate at slightly different rates, then that, along with several other highly improbable things, can tie together and might explain why there is more matter in the universe. So if I was gonna bet the farm, I’ll bet that they oscillate at the same rate, but I don’t know, and you don’t know till you do the measurements, so that’s what we’re doing. There are some other experiments trying to measure it right now, so there’s a big race between the Fermilab group and another group in Japan to see who gets there first and make this measurement, and we will find out. If it turns out, though, that there is a difference in this oscillation rate between matter and antimatter, it will be a huge clue in this very, very difficult puzzle.
And if the neutrinos oscillate at slightly different rates, then that, along with several other highly improbable things, can tie together and might explain why there is more matter in the universe. So if I was gonna bet the farm, I’ll bet that they oscillate at the same rate, but I don’t know, and you don’t know till you do the measurements, so that’s what we’re doing. There are some other experiments trying to measure it right now, so there’s a big race between the Fermilab group and another group in Japan to see who gets there first and make this measurement, and we will find out. If it turns out, though, that there is a difference in this oscillation rate between matter and antimatter, it will be a huge clue in this very, very difficult puzzle.
Don Lincoln
I wish I could tell you I knew what the answer is, but literally nobody knows. I mean, and that’s the thing of being a research scientist like me is if you’re not confused- … you’re not doing your job.
I wish I could tell you I knew what the answer is, but literally nobody knows. I mean, and that’s the thing of being a research scientist like me is if you’re not confused- … you’re not doing your job.
Lex Fridman
So there is this desperate or not desperate, exciting search for this tiny asymmetry.
So there is this desperate or not desperate, exciting search for this tiny asymmetry.
Don Lincoln
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
It’s so, so crazy to think that everything we see around us is a result of this tiny asymmetry, that there was this gigantic annihilation of matter and antimatter in the early-
It’s so, so crazy to think that everything we see around us is a result of this tiny asymmetry, that there was this gigantic annihilation of matter and antimatter in the early-
Don Lincoln
Yes
Yes
Lex Fridman
… universe, and this is just some little accident. But yeah.
… universe, and this is just some little accident. But yeah.
Don Lincoln
Yeah, that’s crazy.
Yeah, that’s crazy.
Lex Fridman
It’s a happy accident.
It’s a happy accident.
Don Lincoln
That is, I mean, it’s totally crazy.
That is, I mean, it’s totally crazy.
Dark energy
Lex Fridman
This is one of the areas of physics where there’s a lot of mystery. Okay. So can we pull at that thread a little further? Let’s talk about our intuition of what is dark energy as it connects to empty space and everything we’ve been talking about. What’s—what’s the cleanest definition of dark energy?
This is one of the areas of physics where there’s a lot of mystery. Okay. So can we pull at that thread a little further? Let’s talk about our intuition of what is dark energy as it connects to empty space and everything we’ve been talking about. What’s—what’s the cleanest definition of dark energy?
Don Lincoln
So dark energy is either energy of space or energy in space. The most common statement is the energy of space, and it is essentially a repulsive form of gravity. And we believe this is real, and the reason we believe this is real is from observation. This is one of those things where we talked about a while ago where I said that, you know, you can think about things up this theoretical stuff and try to come up with a measurement, or you can make measurements and see where they disagree with predictions and lead that in a direction. So back in the late 1990s, some astronomers were looking at the expansion rate of the universe.
So dark energy is either energy of space or energy in space. The most common statement is the energy of space, and it is essentially a repulsive form of gravity. And we believe this is real, and the reason we believe this is real is from observation. This is one of those things where we talked about a while ago where I said that, you know, you can think about things up this theoretical stuff and try to come up with a measurement, or you can make measurements and see where they disagree with predictions and lead that in a direction. So back in the late 1990s, some astronomers were looking at the expansion rate of the universe.
Don Lincoln
So the Big Bang occurred, the universe is expanding, the universe is full of matter, matter attracts, so the gravity due to the matter of the universe should slow the expansion of the universe. And the only question was how much? There were three possibilities. The possibilities were there was so much gravitational force that the expansion of the universe would slow, stop, and be pulled back together in a big crunch. Number two was that the universe would continue expanding, slowing down, but never really stopping. And then the third possibility was the exact critical case, where expansion would slow forever and approach zero only at infinity, never quite stopping or reversing. So those were the possibilities, door number one, two, or three.
So the Big Bang occurred, the universe is expanding, the universe is full of matter, matter attracts, so the gravity due to the matter of the universe should slow the expansion of the universe. And the only question was how much? There were three possibilities. The possibilities were there was so much gravitational force that the expansion of the universe would slow, stop, and be pulled back together in a big crunch. Number two was that the universe would continue expanding, slowing down, but never really stopping. And then the third possibility was the exact critical case, where expansion would slow forever and approach zero only at infinity, never quite stopping or reversing. So those were the possibilities, door number one, two, or three.
Don Lincoln
So they did the measurement, and what did they found? It was door number four. The universe was not only expanding, but the expansion was speeding up, and the only way that could happen, given that gravity slows it down, is there was a repulsive force, and the name we give to that repulsive force is dark energy. This is something that Einstein postulated early on in his development of general relativity, but then because at the time, he knew that his theory predicted that the universe would collapse but he believed the universe was eternal and not unchanging, and so he needed something to counterbalance that collapse, and so he invented dark energy. He didn’t call it that.
So they did the measurement, and what did they found? It was door number four. The universe was not only expanding, but the expansion was speeding up, and the only way that could happen, given that gravity slows it down, is there was a repulsive force, and the name we give to that repulsive force is dark energy. This is something that Einstein postulated early on in his development of general relativity, but then because at the time, he knew that his theory predicted that the universe would collapse but he believed the universe was eternal and not unchanging, and so he needed something to counterbalance that collapse, and so he invented dark energy. He didn’t call it that.
Don Lincoln
Called it the cosmological constant. But then a few years later, Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe was indeed expanding, and so since the universe was no longer static, Einstein said, “No need for cosmological constant,” took it back out. Thought it was a dumb idea that he put it in, and was embarrassed. However, in 1998 it became clear that his original idea that there should be some sort of repulsive form of gravity was real, and it’s put back in the theory.
Called it the cosmological constant. But then a few years later, Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe was indeed expanding, and so since the universe was no longer static, Einstein said, “No need for cosmological constant,” took it back out. Thought it was a dumb idea that he put it in, and was embarrassed. However, in 1998 it became clear that his original idea that there should be some sort of repulsive form of gravity was real, and it’s put back in the theory.
Don Lincoln
And so that’s what it is. We are pretty confident at this point that the expansion of the universe is speeding up, and the thing driving it is dark energy. Now, what is dark energy? I don’t know. As I said, the most common thought is that it is the energy of space itself, but it is at least conceivable that there is a field in space where space exists- … and that field is pushing space apart. That’s another conceivability that I’m not sure that we have the instrumentation to distinguish, but that’s not what normally people think. People think it is literally a property of space.
And so that’s what it is. We are pretty confident at this point that the expansion of the universe is speeding up, and the thing driving it is dark energy. Now, what is dark energy? I don’t know. As I said, the most common thought is that it is the energy of space itself, but it is at least conceivable that there is a field in space where space exists- … and that field is pushing space apart. That’s another conceivability that I’m not sure that we have the instrumentation to distinguish, but that’s not what normally people think. People think it is literally a property of space.
Dark matter
Lex Fridman
But, but there is the what—what you call the worst prediction in physics, which is a nice—
But, but there is the what—what you call the worst prediction in physics, which is a nice—
Don Lincoln
Oh, yeah. That’s another one.
Oh, yeah. That’s another one.
Lex Fridman
… a nice little insight about the complicated nature of dark energy. So the observations, as you describe, say that empty space has a tiny energy density that accelerates expansion of the universe. But quantum field theory’s prediction for what vacuum energy should be when coupled with gravity is much larger. So this is what makes for the quote—you have a video on this—worst prediction in physics.
… a nice little insight about the complicated nature of dark energy. So the observations, as you describe, say that empty space has a tiny energy density that accelerates expansion of the universe. But quantum field theory’s prediction for what vacuum energy should be when coupled with gravity is much larger. So this is what makes for the quote—you have a video on this—worst prediction in physics.
Don Lincoln
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Can you, can you explain this crisis?
Can you, can you explain this crisis?
Don Lincoln
Well, there’s a measurement, and you can measure how fast the universe is expanding, and from that you get a measurement of dark energy. However, if you then say, well, suppose the dark energy is due to fields in space. So that’s quantum field theory. Hey, I know a lot about quantum field theory.
Well, there’s a measurement, and you can measure how fast the universe is expanding, and from that you get a measurement of dark energy. However, if you then say, well, suppose the dark energy is due to fields in space. So that’s quantum field theory. Hey, I know a lot about quantum field theory.
Don Lincoln
And so we can take the quantum field theory, and we can calculate what the density of energy is due to quantum field theory. And basically what you do is you take within a volume all of the wavelengths, the longer wavelengths, the shorter wavelengths, the shorter and shorter, and you can add them all up. And each wavelength adds a certain amount of energy, and if you add that all up, then you get a number, and that number is the rather embarrassing 10 to the 120 power times—that’s a one with 120 zeros after it—bigger than the measurement of dark energy. So you go, “Yuck, that is not fun at all.”
And so we can take the quantum field theory, and we can calculate what the density of energy is due to quantum field theory. And basically what you do is you take within a volume all of the wavelengths, the longer wavelengths, the shorter wavelengths, the shorter and shorter, and you can add them all up. And each wavelength adds a certain amount of energy, and if you add that all up, then you get a number, and that number is the rather embarrassing 10 to the 120 power times—that’s a one with 120 zeros after it—bigger than the measurement of dark energy. So you go, “Yuck, that is not fun at all.”
Don Lincoln
And that is because the equation comes to the highest energy or the smallest wavelength particle that you can imagine to the fourth power, since anything to the fourth power is a big deal. So that’s where you get that awful number. Now, if it turns out that there is some new physics that’s just about at the energy scale we can measure using our biggest particle accelerators, remember I told you that that was a factor, the maximum energy scale, Planck scale, is 10 to the 15 times bigger than what we can measure now. So let’s say that we don’t have to calculate up to the Planck scale because something happens, something changes at the energy that we know right now.
And that is because the equation comes to the highest energy or the smallest wavelength particle that you can imagine to the fourth power, since anything to the fourth power is a big deal. So that’s where you get that awful number. Now, if it turns out that there is some new physics that’s just about at the energy scale we can measure using our biggest particle accelerators, remember I told you that that was a factor, the maximum energy scale, Planck scale, is 10 to the 15 times bigger than what we can measure now. So let’s say that we don’t have to calculate up to the Planck scale because something happens, something changes at the energy that we know right now.
Don Lincoln
Well, then that means we don’t have to integrate to Planck scale, we integrate to 10 to the 15th less of the Planck scale, and this thing is to the fourth power, so 10 to the 15th to the fourth power is 60. So now, even if we say, you know, Don, he’s brilliant, he’s gonna find something at the LHC tomorrow that’s gonna solve all this problem, now we’ve solved it, it’s much better. It’s only different by 10 to the 60 power, which is still pretty bleeding big. So the short answer is there is very clearly something going on, something wrong, very badly wrong in the quantum field theory. You know, we have to have, maybe there’s another field that balances out the energy, that cancels it down. And even that, you know, that’s not so outrageous.
Well, then that means we don’t have to integrate to Planck scale, we integrate to 10 to the 15th less of the Planck scale, and this thing is to the fourth power, so 10 to the 15th to the fourth power is 60. So now, even if we say, you know, Don, he’s brilliant, he’s gonna find something at the LHC tomorrow that’s gonna solve all this problem, now we’ve solved it, it’s much better. It’s only different by 10 to the 60 power, which is still pretty bleeding big. So the short answer is there is very clearly something going on, something wrong, very badly wrong in the quantum field theory. You know, we have to have, maybe there’s another field that balances out the energy, that cancels it down. And even that, you know, that’s not so outrageous.
Don Lincoln
You know, you could imagine that there’s another, you know, like we have matter and antimatter, they balance pretty well. Okay, maybe there’s something going on, you could cancel that out, that’d be perfect. But canceling something to zero is easy ’cause, you know, plus one and minus one, zero. Plus two, minus two, zero. But we still have dark energy. Dark energy is a little bit, so if it cancels, it doesn’t cancel exactly ’cause it left over that little bit of dark energy. So that is its own curiosity. Perfect cancellation, pretty easy. Theorists do that, you know, eight times before breakfast. Imperfect cancellation, much harder.
You know, you could imagine that there’s another, you know, like we have matter and antimatter, they balance pretty well. Okay, maybe there’s something going on, you could cancel that out, that’d be perfect. But canceling something to zero is easy ’cause, you know, plus one and minus one, zero. Plus two, minus two, zero. But we still have dark energy. Dark energy is a little bit, so if it cancels, it doesn’t cancel exactly ’cause it left over that little bit of dark energy. So that is its own curiosity. Perfect cancellation, pretty easy. Theorists do that, you know, eight times before breakfast. Imperfect cancellation, much harder.
Lex Fridman
Just to elaborate that a little bit, what, what do you think solving, in quotes, solving dark energy would look like?
Just to elaborate that a little bit, what, what do you think solving, in quotes, solving dark energy would look like?
Don Lincoln
Well, what you would do is you would hypothesize that there existed some other field that had the reverse effect of existing quantum fields.
Well, what you would do is you would hypothesize that there existed some other field that had the reverse effect of existing quantum fields.
Lex Fridman
But not to zero.
But not to zero.
Don Lincoln
But not to zero. So but if you had it to go to zero, you know, sure, maybe there’s a field that exists at really high energies that we haven’t seen yet. I don’t know, but it canceled things out, and we’re cool.
But not to zero. So but if you had it to go to zero, you know, sure, maybe there’s a field that exists at really high energies that we haven’t seen yet. I don’t know, but it canceled things out, and we’re cool.
Lex Fridman
How would we then demonstrate the existence of that field?
How would we then demonstrate the existence of that field?
Don Lincoln
Well, that would depend on the, the prediction.
Well, that would depend on the, the prediction.
Lex Fridman
How do you even come up with a new field?
How do you even come up with a new field?
Don Lincoln
Like all theorists do. Well, let’s add something to my equation and see what happens. I mean, and that’s okay. … I’m being glib about that, but that is precisely what you do. You say, what change? We have this thing that works quite beautifully except it fails here. What is the addition that we need to make that changes very little in the realm that we measured and yet fixes this hard thing? And so you literally just go, da, da, da, okay, what do I need? Plus six or something. And as long as it makes no changes where it would hurt our measurements and fixes the big thing, then that is at least a candidate theory. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s right, but it at least gives you an understanding of what the right answer should look like.
Like all theorists do. Well, let’s add something to my equation and see what happens. I mean, and that’s okay. … I’m being glib about that, but that is precisely what you do. You say, what change? We have this thing that works quite beautifully except it fails here. What is the addition that we need to make that changes very little in the realm that we measured and yet fixes this hard thing? And so you literally just go, da, da, da, okay, what do I need? Plus six or something. And as long as it makes no changes where it would hurt our measurements and fixes the big thing, then that is at least a candidate theory. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s right, but it at least gives you an understanding of what the right answer should look like.
Don Lincoln
And so that’s the first step, is what should the real answer look like or what is a possible real answer? And then once you kind of know that, then other people can look and say, “Well, let me think about a theory that kind of has the required properties to do what we need it to do.” So it’s a multi-step process, but the first step is how do we tame this problem without coming up with really terrible predictions that we’ve already ruled out? And so that’s what you do. And you know, that is literally a sensible, viable, theoretical thing, because you have to explore cool ideas.
And so that’s the first step, is what should the real answer look like or what is a possible real answer? And then once you kind of know that, then other people can look and say, “Well, let me think about a theory that kind of has the required properties to do what we need it to do.” So it’s a multi-step process, but the first step is how do we tame this problem without coming up with really terrible predictions that we’ve already ruled out? And so that’s what you do. And you know, that is literally a sensible, viable, theoretical thing, because you have to explore cool ideas.
Lex Fridman
I mean, one of the reasons dark energy is super interesting is it kind of gives us a mechanism by which we can talk about the deep future of the universe. I mean, it’s making— We have observations about the expansion of the universe, but it’s also giving us the mechanism of that, right? So we can talk about any weirdness, any good model we have that, that captures some of the weirdness of dark energy might give us insights about how this thing ends, how the universe- … about the deep future of the universe, right?
I mean, one of the reasons dark energy is super interesting is it kind of gives us a mechanism by which we can talk about the deep future of the universe. I mean, it’s making— We have observations about the expansion of the universe, but it’s also giving us the mechanism of that, right? So we can talk about any weirdness, any good model we have that, that captures some of the weirdness of dark energy might give us insights about how this thing ends, how the universe- … about the deep future of the universe, right?
Don Lincoln
Absolutely. As it stands right now, if dark energy is real, and who knows, you know, if it’s real exactly as we’ve measured it, then as the universe gets bigger and bigger, dark energy becomes a bigger and bigger component of the- … energy balance of the universe, and it takes over, and it drives the continued accelerated expansion of the universe. And if dark energy gets lower, you know, for some reason that we don’t understand, maybe it changes over time, gets smaller. That could change things. If it gets bigger, it could change things-
Absolutely. As it stands right now, if dark energy is real, and who knows, you know, if it’s real exactly as we’ve measured it, then as the universe gets bigger and bigger, dark energy becomes a bigger and bigger component of the- … energy balance of the universe, and it takes over, and it drives the continued accelerated expansion of the universe. And if dark energy gets lower, you know, for some reason that we don’t understand, maybe it changes over time, gets smaller. That could change things. If it gets bigger, it could change things-
Lex Fridman
That is one of the big open questions, whether it’s constant over time or not.
That is one of the big open questions, whether it’s constant over time or not.
Don Lincoln
Right. And there has been a recent measurement that suggests that dark energy is getting smaller. However, that is a new measurement, not confirmed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody should believe it, but it’s a hint that maybe it’s changing, which is kind of cool in itself because the current bias until recently is that dark energy is constant. Now, I wanna be super careful because it’s misleading. People say dark energy is constant. Dark energy is a density. Now, that— think about that. You have a certain density, let’s start with that. Then the universe expands.
Right. And there has been a recent measurement that suggests that dark energy is getting smaller. However, that is a new measurement, not confirmed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody should believe it, but it’s a hint that maybe it’s changing, which is kind of cool in itself because the current bias until recently is that dark energy is constant. Now, I wanna be super careful because it’s misleading. People say dark energy is constant. Dark energy is a density. Now, that— think about that. You have a certain density, let’s start with that. Then the universe expands.
Lex Fridman
Yep.
Yep.
Don Lincoln
So energy is volume times density. If the universe gets bigger and the density is constant, that means dark energy is increasing. It’s not just increasing as a fraction and overwhelming ordinary matter, but ordinary matter, as the universe expands, its density decreases because it’s constant and the volume gets bigger, the density drops. Dark energy, until recently, is thought to be constant density.
So energy is volume times density. If the universe gets bigger and the density is constant, that means dark energy is increasing. It’s not just increasing as a fraction and overwhelming ordinary matter, but ordinary matter, as the universe expands, its density decreases because it’s constant and the volume gets bigger, the density drops. Dark energy, until recently, is thought to be constant density.
Lex Fridman
So that’s what’s implied when you say constant. You say constant density, which means it’s actually increasing because space is increasing. The size of space-
So that’s what’s implied when you say constant. You say constant density, which means it’s actually increasing because space is increasing. The size of space-
Don Lincoln
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
… is increasing. Interesting.
… is increasing. Interesting.
Don Lincoln
And so that’s a weirdness, and that then ties into the nature of space. Why does that tie into the nature of space? Well, because if dark energy is a field in space, if you increase the volume, you would think the energy density would drop. But if space is increasing and space is quantized, and I don’t know if it is, then maybe what’s happening is space isn’t stretching, but like little space particles are appearing as the space, you know, there’s like bubbles of space appearing, and each bubble contains a certain amount of dark energy. And so therefore, that would give you a sense that dark energy is a property of space rather than a field in space. But that’s all very hand-wavy guess-worky stuff.
And so that’s a weirdness, and that then ties into the nature of space. Why does that tie into the nature of space? Well, because if dark energy is a field in space, if you increase the volume, you would think the energy density would drop. But if space is increasing and space is quantized, and I don’t know if it is, then maybe what’s happening is space isn’t stretching, but like little space particles are appearing as the space, you know, there’s like bubbles of space appearing, and each bubble contains a certain amount of dark energy. And so therefore, that would give you a sense that dark energy is a property of space rather than a field in space. But that’s all very hand-wavy guess-worky stuff.
Lex Fridman
So if you had to bet all your money, is dark energy like a real physical—what does that even mean?—thing that exists, versus is this just an, a renaming of the cosmological constant?
So if you had to bet all your money, is dark energy like a real physical—what does that even mean?—thing that exists, versus is this just an, a renaming of the cosmological constant?
Don Lincoln
Unfortunately, I think it’s both. I mean well, I mean- It is; it’s describing a reality, but it’s also maybe telling us something about space.
Unfortunately, I think it’s both. I mean well, I mean- It is; it’s describing a reality, but it’s also maybe telling us something about space.
Lex Fridman
Literally a property of space.
Literally a property of space.
Don Lincoln
Yeah. It’s, I mean, that’s kind of what it looks like. Given that it seems to be constant density, that seems to me– Now, this is not something anybody should believe. Please, nobody believe this. But it seems to me that this is leaning towards the idea that, A, it’s a property of space, B, space is quantized, C, as space is expanding, little quanta of space are appearing, and D, each one of those quanta has a certain amount of energy associated with it, and that would kind of explain the constant density. Now, please, that’s not– Anybody should– Nobody accepts that. This is just nonsense.
Yeah. It’s, I mean, that’s kind of what it looks like. Given that it seems to be constant density, that seems to me– Now, this is not something anybody should believe. Please, nobody believe this. But it seems to me that this is leaning towards the idea that, A, it’s a property of space, B, space is quantized, C, as space is expanding, little quanta of space are appearing, and D, each one of those quanta has a certain amount of energy associated with it, and that would kind of explain the constant density. Now, please, that’s not– Anybody should– Nobody accepts that. This is just nonsense.
Lex Fridman
But a lot of the stuff that you just said is experimentally, probably experimentally testable. You can probably construct-
But a lot of the stuff that you just said is experimentally, probably experimentally testable. You can probably construct-
Don Lincoln
Well
Well
Lex Fridman
… experimentally the bubbles of
… experimentally the bubbles of
Don Lincoln
Well, finding out the bubbles of space, but those quanta conceivably are Planck-size bubbles.
Well, finding out the bubbles of space, but those quanta conceivably are Planck-size bubbles.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, the quanta.
Yeah, the quanta.
Don Lincoln
Well, they’d be quanta of space. I mean, the idea is, you know, you look at a sand dune and it looks smooth and continuous, but you can see individual grains of sand, right? And so what this is saying is as this dune expands, new grains of sand are appearing, and each one of them is a quantum of space.
Well, they’d be quanta of space. I mean, the idea is, you know, you look at a sand dune and it looks smooth and continuous, but you can see individual grains of sand, right? And so what this is saying is as this dune expands, new grains of sand are appearing, and each one of them is a quantum of space.
Lex Fridman
So what kind of experiments can we do in the coming decades or centuries to understand dark energy better?
So what kind of experiments can we do in the coming decades or centuries to understand dark energy better?
Don Lincoln
I mean, people have been talking about quantum entanglement of gravity. In standard quantum mechanics, a particle can be in two places at the same time. All right? So now you have two particles. So this particle can be in two places in the same time. This particle be, be two places at the same time, and you put them near one another. Well, if they’re close to each other, there’s a certain gravitational force. If they’re far apart, there are certain… And if they, one is close and one is far, you have another one. You can calculate the effects of gravity having to do with quantum entangled particles being in two places.
I mean, people have been talking about quantum entanglement of gravity. In standard quantum mechanics, a particle can be in two places at the same time. All right? So now you have two particles. So this particle can be in two places in the same time. This particle be, be two places at the same time, and you put them near one another. Well, if they’re close to each other, there’s a certain gravitational force. If they’re far apart, there are certain… And if they, one is close and one is far, you have another one. You can calculate the effects of gravity having to do with quantum entangled particles being in two places.
Don Lincoln
And people are talking about doing this and trying to see if in doing such a measurement, they might be able to definitively determine whether gravity is a quantum phenomenon or a continuous phenomenon.
And people are talking about doing this and trying to see if in doing such a measurement, they might be able to definitively determine whether gravity is a quantum phenomenon or a continuous phenomenon.
Don Lincoln
And that is potentially a measurement that could be done soon-ish because the technologies inherent in all of this recent work on quantum mechanics is allowing people to be able to make instrumentation that might be precise enough to do this measurement. Now, this will not tell us what quantum gravity is. It will not tell us anything, but it will tell us that gravity is quantized. And just knowing that, well, for one thing, it shuts out a whole realm of continuous gravity, and the theoretical community will then turn its attention, forget this stuff, and think over here. Now, that doesn’t tell you that space is quantized, but it tells you that gravity is quantized if it bears out. So and if gravity is quantized, then people will start thinking more about space being quantized.
And that is potentially a measurement that could be done soon-ish because the technologies inherent in all of this recent work on quantum mechanics is allowing people to be able to make instrumentation that might be precise enough to do this measurement. Now, this will not tell us what quantum gravity is. It will not tell us anything, but it will tell us that gravity is quantized. And just knowing that, well, for one thing, it shuts out a whole realm of continuous gravity, and the theoretical community will then turn its attention, forget this stuff, and think over here. Now, that doesn’t tell you that space is quantized, but it tells you that gravity is quantized if it bears out. So and if gravity is quantized, then people will start thinking more about space being quantized.
Lex Fridman
I have to ask, ’cause you mentioned dark matter is perhaps even more mysterious than dark energy.
I have to ask, ’cause you mentioned dark matter is perhaps even more mysterious than dark energy.
Don Lincoln
Okay.
Okay.
Lex Fridman
Can you build up the intuition why it’s more mysterious? What is dark matter?
Can you build up the intuition why it’s more mysterious? What is dark matter?
Don Lincoln
Oh gosh, what is dark matter? A, I don’t know. B, it’s terribly fascinating.
Oh gosh, what is dark matter? A, I don’t know. B, it’s terribly fascinating.
Don Lincoln
All right? So first thing, and the most important thing ’cause I’m an experimentalist, by God, the first thing is why do we believe there’s dark matter? And the reason is that astronomical measurements do not agree with predictions by Newtonian or relativity theory. Galaxies spin too fast, clusters of galaxies move too quickly, and the distortion of very distant galaxies due to the gravitational field of nearer galaxies disagrees with the prediction from what we see from the observed matter. So there are three very distinct reasons why we are predicting that, that something is wrong in our understanding of either the laws of physics or the matter budget of the universe. The easiest one to talk about is the spinning galaxies.
All right? So first thing, and the most important thing ’cause I’m an experimentalist, by God, the first thing is why do we believe there’s dark matter? And the reason is that astronomical measurements do not agree with predictions by Newtonian or relativity theory. Galaxies spin too fast, clusters of galaxies move too quickly, and the distortion of very distant galaxies due to the gravitational field of nearer galaxies disagrees with the prediction from what we see from the observed matter. So there are three very distinct reasons why we are predicting that, that something is wrong in our understanding of either the laws of physics or the matter budget of the universe. The easiest one to talk about is the spinning galaxies.
Don Lincoln
Now, this is– what I’m saying is not unique to spinning galaxies, just easiest to talk about. So galaxies are observed to spin more quickly than they should if we add up the gravity we see. By all rights, galaxies spinning that fast should blow themselves apart, and they don’t. So what can be the answer? Well, you have the force required for a star to orbit to move in a circle, and you have the force due to gravity, and they’re connected by an equal sign, and the prediction is wrong. So either the force due to gravity is wrong, the force needed to move in a circle is wrong, or the equal sign is wrong. I mean, this is really simple. One of those things is wrong.
Now, this is– what I’m saying is not unique to spinning galaxies, just easiest to talk about. So galaxies are observed to spin more quickly than they should if we add up the gravity we see. By all rights, galaxies spinning that fast should blow themselves apart, and they don’t. So what can be the answer? Well, you have the force required for a star to orbit to move in a circle, and you have the force due to gravity, and they’re connected by an equal sign, and the prediction is wrong. So either the force due to gravity is wrong, the force needed to move in a circle is wrong, or the equal sign is wrong. I mean, this is really simple. One of those things is wrong.
Don Lincoln
So one possibility is simply that Newton’s law of gravity, mass times the mass over R squared times a constant, that’s just wrong. Another possibility is Newton’s F equals ma that we are taught in introductory physics is wrong. Both of those are eminently possible. Over here, maybe we don’t understand gravity, or maybe there’s more mass than we can see. So these, you know, I mean, it’s nice that you can look at this really simply and come up with a list, you know, a cookbook of things we can test. And so we’ve done that. We’ve gone and said, “What are the possibilities?” Well, the most obvious possibility is that there is more mass than we can see. There’s black holes, there’s hydrogen gas that we can’t see, whatever. There’s something out there.
So one possibility is simply that Newton’s law of gravity, mass times the mass over R squared times a constant, that’s just wrong. Another possibility is Newton’s F equals ma that we are taught in introductory physics is wrong. Both of those are eminently possible. Over here, maybe we don’t understand gravity, or maybe there’s more mass than we can see. So these, you know, I mean, it’s nice that you can look at this really simply and come up with a list, you know, a cookbook of things we can test. And so we’ve done that. We’ve gone and said, “What are the possibilities?” Well, the most obvious possibility is that there is more mass than we can see. There’s black holes, there’s hydrogen gas that we can’t see, whatever. There’s something out there.
Don Lincoln
So that was the first thing. So you go and you look, and there’s no hydrogen gas because we can see that with radio waves. That’s not it. In the ’90s, we went looking for black holes, rogue planets, things like that. Those exist, but not enough of them.
So that was the first thing. So you go and you look, and there’s no hydrogen gas because we can see that with radio waves. That’s not it. In the ’90s, we went looking for black holes, rogue planets, things like that. Those exist, but not enough of them.
Don Lincoln
That’s not it. And so now we’re left with there’s some sort of matter that we can’t see, or we don’t understand gravity, or we don’t understand inertia. Now, I personally, if you asked me this, oh, I don’t know, 25 years ago, I would’ve said the most likely answer is that we don’t understand inertia or gravity. You know, I– if 20 years ago, 25 years ago, that’s what I would’ve said, no problem. However, there have been a couple of observations that have caused me to change my thinking, and I think that dark matter is more likely. One of them is called the Bullet Cluster. So the Bullet Cluster, there are two large clusters of galaxies. In these large clusters of galaxies, well, any galaxy consists of a couple of components.
That’s not it. And so now we’re left with there’s some sort of matter that we can’t see, or we don’t understand gravity, or we don’t understand inertia. Now, I personally, if you asked me this, oh, I don’t know, 25 years ago, I would’ve said the most likely answer is that we don’t understand inertia or gravity. You know, I– if 20 years ago, 25 years ago, that’s what I would’ve said, no problem. However, there have been a couple of observations that have caused me to change my thinking, and I think that dark matter is more likely. One of them is called the Bullet Cluster. So the Bullet Cluster, there are two large clusters of galaxies. In these large clusters of galaxies, well, any galaxy consists of a couple of components.
Don Lincoln
There are the galaxies themselves, there is the hydrogen gas that surrounds the galaxies, and maybe there is dark matter. And if dark matter is real or dark matter is not real, you will get different answers if those two galaxies pass through one another. The galaxies themselves should pass through one another basically not interacting, but the big thing is the gas clouds. So if there’s big clouds of gas, as the galaxies pass through one another, the clouds should interact, and the gas clouds should stop in the middle and be really, really hot.
There are the galaxies themselves, there is the hydrogen gas that surrounds the galaxies, and maybe there is dark matter. And if dark matter is real or dark matter is not real, you will get different answers if those two galaxies pass through one another. The galaxies themselves should pass through one another basically not interacting, but the big thing is the gas clouds. So if there’s big clouds of gas, as the galaxies pass through one another, the clouds should interact, and the gas clouds should stop in the middle and be really, really hot.
Don Lincoln
So then you would see, if there were no dark matter, you would see a cluster of galaxies, cluster of galaxies, a big gas cloud in the middle, and because the big gas cloud in the middle is much more massive than the galaxies themselves, you would expect to see distortions that we call dark matter distortions in the middle. If, however, dark matter is real, the galaxies pass through one another, the cloud stops, dark matter doesn’t interact with the cloud, so it passes through. In that case, you would expect to see the distortions where the galaxies are.
So then you would see, if there were no dark matter, you would see a cluster of galaxies, cluster of galaxies, a big gas cloud in the middle, and because the big gas cloud in the middle is much more massive than the galaxies themselves, you would expect to see distortions that we call dark matter distortions in the middle. If, however, dark matter is real, the galaxies pass through one another, the cloud stops, dark matter doesn’t interact with the cloud, so it passes through. In that case, you would expect to see the distortions where the galaxies are.
Don Lincoln
And that’s what we see. So that is a strong evidence in my mind. The Bullet Cluster is strong evidence that dark matter is a real thing. And there is another example which is much more recent (the Bullet Cluster was a while ago) called the Dragonfly galaxies. There’s Dragonfly 2 and Dragonfly 4. These are galaxies that rotate exactly according to Newton’s laws.
And that’s what we see. So that is a strong evidence in my mind. The Bullet Cluster is strong evidence that dark matter is a real thing. And there is another example which is much more recent (the Bullet Cluster was a while ago) called the Dragonfly galaxies. There’s Dragonfly 2 and Dragonfly 4. These are galaxies that rotate exactly according to Newton’s laws.
Don Lincoln
And so the fact that they rotate exactly according to Newton’s laws says that whatever’s causing galaxies to rotate too fast is not a property of matter. But if you had a galaxy where there was no dark matter, for whatever reason it got stripped off or something, this is one of those lovely ironies that the existence of a galaxy with no dark matter is very strong evidence that dark matter is real because you can take the dark matter out. So the DF2 and DF4 also suggests to me that dark matter is real.
And so the fact that they rotate exactly according to Newton’s laws says that whatever’s causing galaxies to rotate too fast is not a property of matter. But if you had a galaxy where there was no dark matter, for whatever reason it got stripped off or something, this is one of those lovely ironies that the existence of a galaxy with no dark matter is very strong evidence that dark matter is real because you can take the dark matter out. So the DF2 and DF4 also suggests to me that dark matter is real.
Don Lincoln
So now, while it remains possible that we need to modify the laws of inertia or we need to modify the laws of gravity, those are possible still. In my opinion, and now this is Don’s opinion, but it’s probably the opinion of most of the scientific community, dark matter is likely a real thing.
So now, while it remains possible that we need to modify the laws of inertia or we need to modify the laws of gravity, those are possible still. In my opinion, and now this is Don’s opinion, but it’s probably the opinion of most of the scientific community, dark matter is likely a real thing.
Don Lincoln
Now, that’s great. I’ve taken you all the way to dark matter. So now you’re gonna ask me, you’re gonna say, “Don, what is dark matter?” I’m gonna go, “I don’t know.” But I know what it isn’t. Okay? I know that it is not black holes. I know that it is not rogue planets. I know that we’ve done the measurements. We’ve looked across nearly every mass range for compact objects and ruled them out. So if dark matter is real, it can’t be made of those. So then you’re left with the idea that dark matter is a particle, and that’s what we’ve thought about. The name for the dark matter particle that we’ve called for a long time is a WIMP, for a weakly interacting massive particle, and we have spent the last, God, 30 years looking for them in the various ways.
Now, that’s great. I’ve taken you all the way to dark matter. So now you’re gonna ask me, you’re gonna say, “Don, what is dark matter?” I’m gonna go, “I don’t know.” But I know what it isn’t. Okay? I know that it is not black holes. I know that it is not rogue planets. I know that we’ve done the measurements. We’ve looked across nearly every mass range for compact objects and ruled them out. So if dark matter is real, it can’t be made of those. So then you’re left with the idea that dark matter is a particle, and that’s what we’ve thought about. The name for the dark matter particle that we’ve called for a long time is a WIMP, for a weakly interacting massive particle, and we have spent the last, God, 30 years looking for them in the various ways.
Don Lincoln
There are three ways that we might see dark matter, the direct way, which says that dark matter exists literally everywhere in this room, in our laboratory, and the dark matter is passing through the Earth like a wind, and we put up detectors trying to see those. We have done that, and we’ve seen nothing.
There are three ways that we might see dark matter, the direct way, which says that dark matter exists literally everywhere in this room, in our laboratory, and the dark matter is passing through the Earth like a wind, and we put up detectors trying to see those. We have done that, and we’ve seen nothing.
Lex Fridman
So we should say we have done that for neutrinos.
So we should say we have done that for neutrinos.
Don Lincoln
We’ve done that for many different types of dark matter. We just simply put detectors in labs deep underground, and we can see neutrinos in them, it’s true, but dark matter would have—especially heavy dark matter, what these, these WIMPs—they have a different signature, and we’ve seen no evidence-
We’ve done that for many different types of dark matter. We just simply put detectors in labs deep underground, and we can see neutrinos in them, it’s true, but dark matter would have—especially heavy dark matter, what these, these WIMPs—they have a different signature, and we’ve seen no evidence-
Lex Fridman
Got it.
Got it.
Don Lincoln
… of dark matter interaction in these detectors.
… of dark matter interaction in these detectors.
Lex Fridman
So neutrinos are also weakly interacting and also-
So neutrinos are also weakly interacting and also-
Don Lincoln
They-
They-
Lex Fridman
… have mass, but-
… have mass, but-
Don Lincoln
They are
They are
Lex Fridman
… but not enough ma- so WIMPs are-
… but not enough ma- so WIMPs are-
Don Lincoln
Right.
Right.
Lex Fridman
… heavy on the M.
… heavy on the M.
Don Lincoln
Right. Neutrinos are indeed WIMPs of a sort. Now, we have to be careful what we mean by WIMPs. They are weakly interacting massive particles, but we can calculate, and there’s just not enough mass in them. It’s not it.
Right. Neutrinos are indeed WIMPs of a sort. Now, we have to be careful what we mean by WIMPs. They are weakly interacting massive particles, but we can calculate, and there’s just not enough mass in them. It’s not it.
Lex Fridman
Got it. Got it.
Got it. Got it.
Don Lincoln
So we need another form, and we have seen zero evidence of this wind of dark matter through the Earth. Another possibility is you look where you think dark matter might be concentrated at the center of galaxies, and if dark matter exists and there’s antimatter dark matter, maybe they annihilate and make photons. And so we look for gamma rays and various other signatures of annihilating dark matter, and there are always constantly announcements of, “Oh, we saw it. Oh, we didn’t. Oh, it…” You know, the problem is that way of looking for dark matter is hard because there are other ways of making, for instance, gamma rays like neutron stars and stuff, and you really need to understand the details of galaxies really, really well to believe that.
So we need another form, and we have seen zero evidence of this wind of dark matter through the Earth. Another possibility is you look where you think dark matter might be concentrated at the center of galaxies, and if dark matter exists and there’s antimatter dark matter, maybe they annihilate and make photons. And so we look for gamma rays and various other signatures of annihilating dark matter, and there are always constantly announcements of, “Oh, we saw it. Oh, we didn’t. Oh, it…” You know, the problem is that way of looking for dark matter is hard because there are other ways of making, for instance, gamma rays like neutron stars and stuff, and you really need to understand the details of galaxies really, really well to believe that.
Don Lincoln
And then the final option is what I do, where we smash particles together at high energy. We try to make dark matter particles. If you make dark matter particles, because they don’t interact except via gravity, they escape with your detector. So what you’re seeing, what you hope to see, is an event where you collide particles, a dark matter particle escapes, and you don’t see it, but the recoil you see on the other side because momentum is conserved. So you see a blob of energy on this side, nothing on the other side. Maybe that’s dark matter, and that also happens with neutrinos. So you need to understand everything about neutrinos and calculate how many of those you see and then hope you see more, and then that might be dark matter. Again, that hasn’t worked.
And then the final option is what I do, where we smash particles together at high energy. We try to make dark matter particles. If you make dark matter particles, because they don’t interact except via gravity, they escape with your detector. So what you’re seeing, what you hope to see, is an event where you collide particles, a dark matter particle escapes, and you don’t see it, but the recoil you see on the other side because momentum is conserved. So you see a blob of energy on this side, nothing on the other side. Maybe that’s dark matter, and that also happens with neutrinos. So you need to understand everything about neutrinos and calculate how many of those you see and then hope you see more, and then that might be dark matter. Again, that hasn’t worked.
Don Lincoln
So we’ve ruled out some dark matter particles, but the problem is the range of space of possible mass, if dark matter is of a particulate form, the range of viable dark matter ranges from something like the mass of an asteroid to far lighter than an electron and everywhere in between. And we have looked. We’ve ruled out some little spots in that phase space, but that’s a big range.
So we’ve ruled out some dark matter particles, but the problem is the range of space of possible mass, if dark matter is of a particulate form, the range of viable dark matter ranges from something like the mass of an asteroid to far lighter than an electron and everywhere in between. And we have looked. We’ve ruled out some little spots in that phase space, but that’s a big range.
Lex Fridman
Is it really possible to miss a particle the size of an asteroid?
Is it really possible to miss a particle the size of an asteroid?
Don Lincoln
The astronomical searches were not sensitive to that level of dark matter, but, you know, then you would expect that there would be some of those in the solar system. And if they’re what we think, like asteroids or something, then we’d heat them up, and we’d eventually see them. But if they’re really, like, truly dark matter, doesn’t interact with matter, which means they wouldn’t absorb energy from the sun, so they’d be really dark. I don’t know. Maybe they’re out there. But the only way we have searched for them was a thing called microlensing. So if a massive object, you have a distant star, and a massive object passes between that star and your eye, that star will momentarily brighten.
The astronomical searches were not sensitive to that level of dark matter, but, you know, then you would expect that there would be some of those in the solar system. And if they’re what we think, like asteroids or something, then we’d heat them up, and we’d eventually see them. But if they’re really, like, truly dark matter, doesn’t interact with matter, which means they wouldn’t absorb energy from the sun, so they’d be really dark. I don’t know. Maybe they’re out there. But the only way we have searched for them was a thing called microlensing. So if a massive object, you have a distant star, and a massive object passes between that star and your eye, that star will momentarily brighten.
Don Lincoln
And so you just look for these, what they call microlensing events, and you count them, and you see some. And we did see some. You know, black holes pass in front of stars, and we’ve seen them, but we just haven’t seen enough. And for very low-mass particles like asteroids, they just wouldn’t make enough brightening effect to see. So there’s, like, a minimum sensitivity of brightening and that about a third the mass of a moon, our moon, is about the sensitivity that we had. So, you know, nobody, I think, really thought that these low-mass guys were likely. What they thought was more likely they were just unseen black holes, which I thought- … you know, I think is completely reasonable.
And so you just look for these, what they call microlensing events, and you count them, and you see some. And we did see some. You know, black holes pass in front of stars, and we’ve seen them, but we just haven’t seen enough. And for very low-mass particles like asteroids, they just wouldn’t make enough brightening effect to see. So there’s, like, a minimum sensitivity of brightening and that about a third the mass of a moon, our moon, is about the sensitivity that we had. So, you know, nobody, I think, really thought that these low-mass guys were likely. What they thought was more likely they were just unseen black holes, which I thought- … you know, I think is completely reasonable.
Lex Fridman
Makes sense.
Makes sense.
Don Lincoln
And then when that got ruled out, I thought, okay, modified gravity or inertia. Well, now the, you know, Bullet Cluster and Dragonfly seem to have ruled that out. So I’m stuck in my head with: dark matter seems to be real, and we don’t know what it is.
And then when that got ruled out, I thought, okay, modified gravity or inertia. Well, now the, you know, Bullet Cluster and Dragonfly seem to have ruled that out. So I’m stuck in my head with: dark matter seems to be real, and we don’t know what it is.
Lex Fridman
And it makes up a giant percentage of matter in the universe.
And it makes up a giant percentage of matter in the universe.
Don Lincoln
It is-
It is-
Lex Fridman
What is it?
What is it?
Don Lincoln
… five times more prevalent than ordinary matter.
… five times more prevalent than ordinary matter.
Lex Fridman
Wow. This is incredible.
Wow. This is incredible.
Don Lincoln
It is incredible.
It is incredible.
Lex Fridman
This is so fascinating.
This is so fascinating.
Don Lincoln
And that’s why it’s cool. So if someone out there is, you know, a young person who wants to get into this, understanding dark matter is a big deal. I mean, it’s five times more prevalent. The problem is, as I told you, if the mass is ranging from an asteroid to far lighter than an electron, if you get on an experiment that looks at one little range of mass, maybe you weren’t the lucky guy that measured the right place, you know? And that’s one of the reasons why, as fascinating as I think it is, I’m not doing dark matter experiments because, you know, if you make an experiment that searches one mass range, it’ll be blind to another mass range.
And that’s why it’s cool. So if someone out there is, you know, a young person who wants to get into this, understanding dark matter is a big deal. I mean, it’s five times more prevalent. The problem is, as I told you, if the mass is ranging from an asteroid to far lighter than an electron, if you get on an experiment that looks at one little range of mass, maybe you weren’t the lucky guy that measured the right place, you know? And that’s one of the reasons why, as fascinating as I think it is, I’m not doing dark matter experiments because, you know, if you make an experiment that searches one mass range, it’ll be blind to another mass range.
Don Lincoln
So what you need is you need many groups doing all sorts of radically different experiments, exploring all sorts of parameter space. And with all that said, until you see it, there still is the possibility that maybe we don’t understand gravity or inertia right. You know, you can’t rule that out.
So what you need is you need many groups doing all sorts of radically different experiments, exploring all sorts of parameter space. And with all that said, until you see it, there still is the possibility that maybe we don’t understand gravity or inertia right. You know, you can’t rule that out.
Lex Fridman
If there is dark matter out there, you’re hoping it’s actually somehow detectable.
If there is dark matter out there, you’re hoping it’s actually somehow detectable.
Don Lincoln
I mean, I don’t know what it is. I think it’s cool. It’s very, very fascinating. That is one thing I really do hope in my lifetime is understood ’cause I’d like to know the answer to that.
I mean, I don’t know what it is. I think it’s cool. It’s very, very fascinating. That is one thing I really do hope in my lifetime is understood ’cause I’d like to know the answer to that.
Lex Fridman
And that, that’s the thing that you could– there legitimately you could see a discovery of-
And that, that’s the thing that you could– there legitimately you could see a discovery of-
Don Lincoln
You gotta get lucky though. I mean, you gotta look in the right place, whatever it is.
You gotta get lucky though. I mean, you gotta look in the right place, whatever it is.
Lex Fridman
Just imagine.
Just imagine.
Don Lincoln
Or you have to come up with that really cool theoretical idea that everybody’s overlooked, which is another possibility. And there are people who are really, really religiously hating dark matter, largely because we’ve looked so hard for so many years and the experiments in today’s world are a million times more sensitive than when I was a starting student- … and they still haven’t seen anything. And that’s why people really hate dark matter. I mean, some of them- … because they think we should have seen it by now, but- … you know, I don’t know.
Or you have to come up with that really cool theoretical idea that everybody’s overlooked, which is another possibility. And there are people who are really, really religiously hating dark matter, largely because we’ve looked so hard for so many years and the experiments in today’s world are a million times more sensitive than when I was a starting student- … and they still haven’t seen anything. And that’s why people really hate dark matter. I mean, some of them- … because they think we should have seen it by now, but- … you know, I don’t know.
Lex Fridman
I mean, I’m a sucker for direct observation. Not– Indirect is obviously also really great, but direct, just imagine pointing your telescope in a certain direction and because of some artifact of cosmology being able to directly detect a giant amount of a thing that you could say is dark matter.
I mean, I’m a sucker for direct observation. Not– Indirect is obviously also really great, but direct, just imagine pointing your telescope in a certain direction and because of some artifact of cosmology being able to directly detect a giant amount of a thing that you could say is dark matter.
Don Lincoln
Yeah, you would see it orbit, things orbit it. Or it would- … eclipse things in front of it or-
Yeah, you would see it orbit, things orbit it. Or it would- … eclipse things in front of it or-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, like in an obvious way. ‘Cause some of the stuff you mentioned with DF-2 and DF-4, those are like brilliant indirect deductions that there should be something like dark matter. But some obvious, yeah, blocking, occluding, this kind of thing.
Yeah, like in an obvious way. ‘Cause some of the stuff you mentioned with DF-2 and DF-4, those are like brilliant indirect deductions that there should be something like dark matter. But some obvious, yeah, blocking, occluding, this kind of thing.
Don Lincoln
We did that in the ’90s with experiments called MACHO, OGLE, and some others. They looked for a black hole that you just can’t see, you know, a black hole you can’t see. It’s perfect. It’s a perfect candidate for dark matter. And if there’s enough of them out there– Now remember, there’s five times- … the number of stars, which means there’s a whole lot of freaking black holes out there. We should have seen them, and we didn’t.
We did that in the ’90s with experiments called MACHO, OGLE, and some others. They looked for a black hole that you just can’t see, you know, a black hole you can’t see. It’s perfect. It’s a perfect candidate for dark matter. And if there’s enough of them out there– Now remember, there’s five times- … the number of stars, which means there’s a whole lot of freaking black holes out there. We should have seen them, and we didn’t.
Future of physics
Lex Fridman
What a grand mystery. We’ve covered so many of them. I could talk to you for a thousand more hours, Don. Let me, if I can, ask you about a little bit more of a on the personal side. You have a really inspiring life story. Your folks didn’t go to college. Can you just tell me about your childhood and where you found the love for physics and science, and maybe how you found your journey to become a physicist, given the context of where you came from?
What a grand mystery. We’ve covered so many of them. I could talk to you for a thousand more hours, Don. Let me, if I can, ask you about a little bit more of a on the personal side. You have a really inspiring life story. Your folks didn’t go to college. Can you just tell me about your childhood and where you found the love for physics and science, and maybe how you found your journey to become a physicist, given the context of where you came from?
Don Lincoln
Well you know, I grew up a poor kid in the boondocks. Great parents, but not ones that could guide me terribly academically, but very, very nurturing. You know, my mom would laugh that she could stop helping me math after like sixth or seventh grade, you know. But they were supportive. And there were a couple of things that– couple, three things I think that folded into it. One is I was a voracious reader as a kid. I loved science fiction. I would read a book a day. It drove my mother nuts ’cause she would try to be nice. She’d buy me a book, and I’d say, “Thank you,” and the next day it’d be done. You know, it just drove her completely nuts. But anyways, but science fiction is good for fostering imagination, and so that’s precisely what it did.
Well you know, I grew up a poor kid in the boondocks. Great parents, but not ones that could guide me terribly academically, but very, very nurturing. You know, my mom would laugh that she could stop helping me math after like sixth or seventh grade, you know. But they were supportive. And there were a couple of things that– couple, three things I think that folded into it. One is I was a voracious reader as a kid. I loved science fiction. I would read a book a day. It drove my mother nuts ’cause she would try to be nice. She’d buy me a book, and I’d say, “Thank you,” and the next day it’d be done. You know, it just drove her completely nuts. But anyways, but science fiction is good for fostering imagination, and so that’s precisely what it did.
Don Lincoln
In addition, and this is where the more serious science came along, there were lovely science communicators that were popular in the 1970s, Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, a guy by the name of George Gamow. They wrote books about science aimed at a layperson. You know, as a kid, I surely couldn’t read a textbook and understand it, but I could read and, you know, get a hint of what science was. And on top of that, you know, I was, as most scientists, people who became scientists, irrepressibly curious about everything. And I had sort of a quasi-philosophical mind. I mean, I was interested in things that, questions that have in the past been theological and then philosophical and now are more scientific. Questions about how did the universe come into existence?
In addition, and this is where the more serious science came along, there were lovely science communicators that were popular in the 1970s, Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, a guy by the name of George Gamow. They wrote books about science aimed at a layperson. You know, as a kid, I surely couldn’t read a textbook and understand it, but I could read and, you know, get a hint of what science was. And on top of that, you know, I was, as most scientists, people who became scientists, irrepressibly curious about everything. And I had sort of a quasi-philosophical mind. I mean, I was interested in things that, questions that have in the past been theological and then philosophical and now are more scientific. Questions about how did the universe come into existence?
Don Lincoln
Why is the universe the way it is? Why are the laws of the universe what we see them to be? How will the universe– Was it created? How will it be destroyed? These are, you know, big questions that have bothered humanity for, well, thousands of years. And so, you know, I did. You, you said I had philosophy and religion minors in college, and I did ’cause I was curious about that. I was hoping that learning that history might help me understand these questions. And it was in college where I came to realize that the answers that I was searching for were not to be found in those directions, but I still learned about how those questions have been asked in the past. And so I became a scientist, and the only question was, was I going to be a cosmologist/astrophysicist-
Why is the universe the way it is? Why are the laws of the universe what we see them to be? How will the universe– Was it created? How will it be destroyed? These are, you know, big questions that have bothered humanity for, well, thousands of years. And so, you know, I did. You, you said I had philosophy and religion minors in college, and I did ’cause I was curious about that. I was hoping that learning that history might help me understand these questions. And it was in college where I came to realize that the answers that I was searching for were not to be found in those directions, but I still learned about how those questions have been asked in the past. And so I became a scientist, and the only question was, was I going to be a cosmologist/astrophysicist-
Don Lincoln
… or a particle physicist? And when I had to make that decision. It was the mid-’80s, and at the time, there were a lot fewer cosmology measurements. There was an awful lot of thinking about the universe and not enough measuring. Whereas with particle physics, by God, you could do experiments. And so the– what attracted me was the ability to actually get an answer and not just mull over what an answer might be. And so I became a particle physicist. It was difficult without having, you know, family mentors or anything like that, but, but, you know, I managed.
… or a particle physicist? And when I had to make that decision. It was the mid-’80s, and at the time, there were a lot fewer cosmology measurements. There was an awful lot of thinking about the universe and not enough measuring. Whereas with particle physics, by God, you could do experiments. And so the– what attracted me was the ability to actually get an answer and not just mull over what an answer might be. And so I became a particle physicist. It was difficult without having, you know, family mentors or anything like that, but, but, you know, I managed.
Don Lincoln
And that actually is why, well, I’m here and why I have spent a fair bit of my time writing books and so forth, because I figure that there has to be some other kid out there in Iowa or Kansas, Montana, somewhere out in some little town without a lot of access to the kinds of thing that people, you know, who have highly educated parents do. And I’m hoping that, you know, some of them will have read some of the things I’ve written and will find their own path forward, because I found it very rewarding over the years. And you know, I’ve been doing this long enough that I’m, I’m sure this is true. I’ve had kids come up to me at the lab and say, “Hey, I’m a summer intern because I saw your video or read your book,” or, you know, whatever.
And that actually is why, well, I’m here and why I have spent a fair bit of my time writing books and so forth, because I figure that there has to be some other kid out there in Iowa or Kansas, Montana, somewhere out in some little town without a lot of access to the kinds of thing that people, you know, who have highly educated parents do. And I’m hoping that, you know, some of them will have read some of the things I’ve written and will find their own path forward, because I found it very rewarding over the years. And you know, I’ve been doing this long enough that I’m, I’m sure this is true. I’ve had kids come up to me at the lab and say, “Hey, I’m a summer intern because I saw your video or read your book,” or, you know, whatever.
Don Lincoln
So I know that at least I’ve made a small impact. I mean, I always would like to do more, and, you know, I appreciate the opportunity that your audience affords me ’cause I, I think it’s important to talk about these things. These are really cool, fascinating questions. They are unanswered, and they are just waiting for youngsters to come and spend some time thinking about them, ’cause one of your viewers might be one of the people who answer these questions that have stymied very smart people for decades.
So I know that at least I’ve made a small impact. I mean, I always would like to do more, and, you know, I appreciate the opportunity that your audience affords me ’cause I, I think it’s important to talk about these things. These are really cool, fascinating questions. They are unanswered, and they are just waiting for youngsters to come and spend some time thinking about them, ’cause one of your viewers might be one of the people who answer these questions that have stymied very smart people for decades.
Lex Fridman
And we should also say that you’re a legit scientist. So what– we’ll mention Sean Carroll, who’s a legit scientist, legit physicist, but is also a good science communicator. Anyway, I did wanna mention, I don’t know if this is true, but I, I kind of heard you talk about this, that when you first showed up to Fermilab, you were, like, working crazy hours, working extremely hard- … eight AM to midnight.
And we should also say that you’re a legit scientist. So what– we’ll mention Sean Carroll, who’s a legit scientist, legit physicist, but is also a good science communicator. Anyway, I did wanna mention, I don’t know if this is true, but I, I kind of heard you talk about this, that when you first showed up to Fermilab, you were, like, working crazy hours, working extremely hard- … eight AM to midnight.
Don Lincoln
I did.
I did.
Lex Fridman
First of all, I love that. Can you speak to what drove you and maybe the value of hard work in those contexts, in your, in the early career when you discover a thing you’re passionate about?
First of all, I love that. Can you speak to what drove you and maybe the value of hard work in those contexts, in your, in the early career when you discover a thing you’re passionate about?
Don Lincoln
Well, yeah. I mean, obviously being smart, you know, if you’re Einstein, then maybe you can slack, I guess. Although even he didn’t do that, but I’m not Einstein. But the fact is, when I was young, and I was unencumbered, no family, no kids or something, I couldn’t imagine anything I wanted to do more. I mean, some people, they wanna go out to the club. They wanna, I don’t know, play soccer or something. But I wanted to make measurements, and I wanted to understand and learn, and that was fantastic. And so as a graduate student, and this isn’t for everybody, but I worked outrageously.
Well, yeah. I mean, obviously being smart, you know, if you’re Einstein, then maybe you can slack, I guess. Although even he didn’t do that, but I’m not Einstein. But the fact is, when I was young, and I was unencumbered, no family, no kids or something, I couldn’t imagine anything I wanted to do more. I mean, some people, they wanna go out to the club. They wanna, I don’t know, play soccer or something. But I wanted to make measurements, and I wanted to understand and learn, and that was fantastic. And so as a graduate student, and this isn’t for everybody, but I worked outrageously.
Don Lincoln
I would, from Monday through Saturday, I would be at the lab voluntarily because I wanted to be from eight AM to midnight, and on Sunday, I would work from eight until about five, and that’s because from five to midnight, I had to wash clothes and buy groceries and things like that. And I loved it, you know. And I still love it. I can’t do that anymore. But, but that’s simply because I have other obligations. But had I been rich, I would’ve done the same thing.
I would, from Monday through Saturday, I would be at the lab voluntarily because I wanted to be from eight AM to midnight, and on Sunday, I would work from eight until about five, and that’s because from five to midnight, I had to wash clothes and buy groceries and things like that. And I loved it, you know. And I still love it. I can’t do that anymore. But, but that’s simply because I have other obligations. But had I been rich, I would’ve done the same thing.
Don Lincoln
You know, it’s something I truly, truly loved. And the– I mean, there is absolutely nothing more fascinating to me than having a hard problem and figuring it out. And that, you know, that work ethic– Well, there’s a couple of things that separate smart people from no-kidding scientists, ’cause all scientists are smart. But the thing that separates, that many scientists have is, A, a drive and a real grit. For me and for so many scientists that I know, trying to measure something and having it not work just kinda ticks me off, and I am not going to let the universe in my lab or whatever beat me. And, you know, some people… they, you know, if the thing breaks, it’s like, “Oh, man, that didn’t work.” And a lot of people, “Well, I’m gonna go home.
You know, it’s something I truly, truly loved. And the– I mean, there is absolutely nothing more fascinating to me than having a hard problem and figuring it out. And that, you know, that work ethic– Well, there’s a couple of things that separate smart people from no-kidding scientists, ’cause all scientists are smart. But the thing that separates, that many scientists have is, A, a drive and a real grit. For me and for so many scientists that I know, trying to measure something and having it not work just kinda ticks me off, and I am not going to let the universe in my lab or whatever beat me. And, you know, some people… they, you know, if the thing breaks, it’s like, “Oh, man, that didn’t work.” And a lot of people, “Well, I’m gonna go home.
Don Lincoln
I’m fed up.” Nah, it would just kinda make me mad, and I’d put more effort into it. And, you know, not every– I mean, okay, I was crazy. I worked long hours. But, but I think- … the people who are really good at this will do maybe not that much, you know. Some people have to have a better life than that. But, but a lot, because it, it’s just you can’t imagine not knowing the answer.
I’m fed up.” Nah, it would just kinda make me mad, and I’d put more effort into it. And, you know, not every– I mean, okay, I was crazy. I worked long hours. But, but I think- … the people who are really good at this will do maybe not that much, you know. Some people have to have a better life than that. But, but a lot, because it, it’s just you can’t imagine not knowing the answer.
Don Lincoln
And that if– When, when you see that as an older guy, you don’t– maybe not to that degree, but when you see that kinda drive, that intensity of trying to get the answers, you know that person’s a winner. And, and so if, you know, some student out there, if it doesn’t, you know, bring you joy, as uh, what’s her name? The Japanese girl says, “If it doesn’t bring you joy, then it might not be for you.” And then you could be a person who reads about it and, you know, is involved. But if you wanna be a real scientist, it has to be just part of what you are here.
And that if– When, when you see that as an older guy, you don’t– maybe not to that degree, but when you see that kinda drive, that intensity of trying to get the answers, you know that person’s a winner. And, and so if, you know, some student out there, if it doesn’t, you know, bring you joy, as uh, what’s her name? The Japanese girl says, “If it doesn’t bring you joy, then it might not be for you.” And then you could be a person who reads about it and, you know, is involved. But if you wanna be a real scientist, it has to be just part of what you are here.
Lex Fridman
And by the way, it is a hard life, but it is also a very fulfilling one. So working hard towards the thing you love is a really fulfilling way to be.
And by the way, it is a hard life, but it is also a very fulfilling one. So working hard towards the thing you love is a really fulfilling way to be.
Don Lincoln
I think that’s true for an artist or something, you know, anybody, a musician, you know? Musician, they just keep practicing because it is who they are.
I think that’s true for an artist or something, you know, anybody, a musician, you know? Musician, they just keep practicing because it is who they are.
Lex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad there’s people like you at a place I admire, like Fermilab, one of the many places in the United States and the world that is carrying the beacon of great science and great engineering forward. Don, thank you so much for everything you do, for all the teaching you do online, for all the incredible physics work that you do at Fermilab, and thank you so much for talking today.
Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad there’s people like you at a place I admire, like Fermilab, one of the many places in the United States and the world that is carrying the beacon of great science and great engineering forward. Don, thank you so much for everything you do, for all the teaching you do online, for all the incredible physics work that you do at Fermilab, and thank you so much for talking today.
Don Lincoln
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for having me.
Lex Fridman
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Don Lincoln. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Marie Curie, a two-time Nobel Prize winner, first in physics, second in chemistry: “Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.” Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Don Lincoln. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Marie Curie, a two-time Nobel Prize winner, first in physics, second in chemistry: “Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.” Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time.
Transcript for FFmpeg: The Incredible Technology Behind Video on the Internet | Lex Fridman Podcast #496
This is a transcript of Lex Fridman Podcast #496 with FFmpeg & VLC.
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
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the main video. Please note that the transcript is
human generated, and may have errors.
Here are some useful links:
The timestamps in the transcript are clickable links
that take you directly to that point in
the main video. Please note that the transcript is
human generated, and may have errors.
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Table of Contents
Here are the loose “chapters” in the conversation.
Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
Click link to jump approximately to that part in the transcript:
- 0:00 – Episode highlight
- 2:17 – Introduction
- 5:35 – Weirdest things VLC opens
- 9:59 – How video playback works
- 19:20 – Video codecs and containers
- 30:07 – FFmpeg explained
- 51:07 – Linus Torvalds
- 55:46 – Turning down millions to keep VLC ad-free
- 1:10:04 – FFmpeg & Google drama
- 1:29:18 – FFmpeg developers
- 1:35:55 – VLC and FFmpeg
- 1:40:29 – History of FFmpeg
- 1:43:46 – Reverse engineering codecs
- 1:57:01 – FFmpeg testing
- 2:01:08 – Assembly code (handwritten)
- 2:25:26 – Rust programming language
- 2:34:42 – FFmpeg and Libav fork
- 2:43:04 – Open source burnout
- 2:50:51 – x264 and internet video
- 3:04:07 – Video compression basics
- 3:11:04 – CIA and fake VLC
- 3:21:39 – Ultra low latency streaming
- 3:39:07 – AV2 codec and video patents
- 3:48:59 – VLC backdoors
- 3:59:14 – Video archiving
- 4:05:51 – Future of FFmpeg and VLC
Episode highlight
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The important thing is, is your code good? We care about excellent code. We don’t care who you are. Like maybe you’re a dog. I don’t care, right? I don’t care where you come from. I need to look at your code. Oh, yeah, but I’m an engineer at this very large company in Italy, in Germany, in the US. We don’t care. We care about the quality of your code because this is what defines our community, which means that we have a lot of people who contribute who are from very different backgrounds and very introverts. Sure. But that’s okay, right?
The important thing is, is your code good? We care about excellent code. We don’t care who you are. Like maybe you’re a dog. I don’t care, right? I don’t care where you come from. I need to look at your code. Oh, yeah, but I’m an engineer at this very large company in Italy, in Germany, in the US. We don’t care. We care about the quality of your code because this is what defines our community, which means that we have a lot of people who contribute who are from very different backgrounds and very introverts. Sure. But that’s okay, right?
Lex Fridman
FFmpeg is probably one of the biggest CPU users in the world. Everything we’ve just said in the past couple of minutes, every sentence is someone’s lifetime’s work. There are books about every sentence. So the level of complexity in many cases is inordinate.
FFmpeg is probably one of the biggest CPU users in the world. Everything we’ve just said in the past couple of minutes, every sentence is someone’s lifetime’s work. There are books about every sentence. So the level of complexity in many cases is inordinate.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
FFmpeg has one hundred thousand lines of assembly for all the codecs.
FFmpeg has one hundred thousand lines of assembly for all the codecs.
Lex Fridman
For all codecs.
For all codecs.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And just this one has two hundred and forty thousand. Every cycle matters. We are talking about probably three billion devices which are going to decode video nonstop because, for example, thirty percent of the video from Netflix are now in AV1, fifty percent of YouTube.
And just this one has two hundred and forty thousand. Every cycle matters. We are talking about probably three billion devices which are going to decode video nonstop because, for example, thirty percent of the video from Netflix are now in AV1, fifty percent of YouTube.
Lex Fridman
This is what peak video codecs should look like. Seventy-nine point nine percent assembly, nineteen point six percent C, and zero point five percent other.
This is what peak video codecs should look like. Seventy-nine point nine percent assembly, nineteen point six percent C, and zero point five percent other.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And what’s incredible is with those tweets, which are factual, people go crazy.
And what’s incredible is with those tweets, which are factual, people go crazy.
Lex Fridman
For the last two years, they go crazy. No, intrinsics is fine. The compiler-
For the last two years, they go crazy. No, intrinsics is fine. The compiler-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You can optimize your compiler. Auto-vectorization, it’s your fault. You don’t understand. And we’ve tried that forever, right?
You can optimize your compiler. Auto-vectorization, it’s your fault. You don’t understand. And we’ve tried that forever, right?
Lex Fridman
For two years, and two years later, showing hundreds of examples of handwritten assembly. No, no, no, you’re doing it wrong. The compiler can do this. The intelligence agencies tried to, like, say, “Can you put a backdoor in VLC?”
For two years, and two years later, showing hundreds of examples of handwritten assembly. No, no, no, you’re doing it wrong. The compiler can do this. The intelligence agencies tried to, like, say, “Can you put a backdoor in VLC?”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. Two of them.
Yes. Two of them.
Lex Fridman
Well, what did you say?
Well, what did you say?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No. Well, I was a lot less polite.
No. Well, I was a lot less polite.
Lex Fridman
Basically saying, “Hell no.”
Basically saying, “Hell no.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Like, if we had to compromise our software, we would shut it down. This is clear.
Like, if we had to compromise our software, we would shut it down. This is clear.
Lex Fridman
Any tweets, Kieran, you regret?
Any tweets, Kieran, you regret?
Kieran Kunhya
Tweets I regret?
Tweets I regret?
Lex Fridman
Or is it like that, how does the French song go? Regret nothing.
Or is it like that, how does the French song go? Regret nothing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Don’t regret anything. No, it’s because regrets are attacks on your mind.
Don’t regret anything. No, it’s because regrets are attacks on your mind.
Introduction
Lex Fridman
The following is a conversation all about FFmpeg and VLC with Jean-Baptiste Kempf and Kieran Kunhya. FFmpeg is an open source software system that is the invisible backbone behind YouTube, Netflix, Chrome, VLC, Discord, and basically every platform that touches video or audio on the internet. It can decode, encode, transcode, stream, and play almost any video or audio format ever created. To me, it is one of the most incredible software systems ever developed, and it’s all done by volunteers. VLC is also a legendary piece of software. It is an open source media player that plays basically anything you throw at it, any format, any platform, no ads, no tracking.
The following is a conversation all about FFmpeg and VLC with Jean-Baptiste Kempf and Kieran Kunhya. FFmpeg is an open source software system that is the invisible backbone behind YouTube, Netflix, Chrome, VLC, Discord, and basically every platform that touches video or audio on the internet. It can decode, encode, transcode, stream, and play almost any video or audio format ever created. To me, it is one of the most incredible software systems ever developed, and it’s all done by volunteers. VLC is also a legendary piece of software. It is an open source media player that plays basically anything you throw at it, any format, any platform, no ads, no tracking.
Lex Fridman
It has been downloaded over six billion times, and again, for me, it has been one of my favorite pieces of software ever, with the most legendary logo, which I, of course, had to honor in this conversation by wearing the VLC traffic cone hat the whole time. So again, above all else, thank you to the incredible volunteer engineers who put their heart and soul into this code that has been used and loved by billions of people. Thank you. And about the two great engineers and human beings I’m talking to in this episode, Jean-Baptiste is the president of VideoLAN and is a key figure behind VLC and FFmpeg.
It has been downloaded over six billion times, and again, for me, it has been one of my favorite pieces of software ever, with the most legendary logo, which I, of course, had to honor in this conversation by wearing the VLC traffic cone hat the whole time. So again, above all else, thank you to the incredible volunteer engineers who put their heart and soul into this code that has been used and loved by billions of people. Thank you. And about the two great engineers and human beings I’m talking to in this episode, Jean-Baptiste is the president of VideoLAN and is a key figure behind VLC and FFmpeg.
Lex Fridman
Kieran is a longtime codec engineer, FFmpeg contributor, and the man behind the now infamous FFmpeg account on Twitter/X that I recommend everybody follow for the memes and for the unapologetic celebration of open source and great low-level software engineering. Let me also say that it’s inspiring and humbling that so much of modern civilization rests on software built by people who are not chasing fame or money, but are obsessed with the craft of engineering. We live in a world where billions of people consume video every day without ever thinking about the invisible machinery underneath it. But that machinery matters. Open source infrastructure matters.
Kieran is a longtime codec engineer, FFmpeg contributor, and the man behind the now infamous FFmpeg account on Twitter/X that I recommend everybody follow for the memes and for the unapologetic celebration of open source and great low-level software engineering. Let me also say that it’s inspiring and humbling that so much of modern civilization rests on software built by people who are not chasing fame or money, but are obsessed with the craft of engineering. We live in a world where billions of people consume video every day without ever thinking about the invisible machinery underneath it. But that machinery matters. Open source infrastructure matters.
Lex Fridman
It is one of the great examples of human beings quietly collaborating across borders to build something useful, durable, and elegant for the rest of us. And so this conversation is not just about codecs and media pipelines. It is also about the deeper spirit of engineering and generosity that makes projects like FFmpeg possible. Again, I can never say it enough. Thank you. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Jean-Baptiste Kempf and Kieran Kunhya.
It is one of the great examples of human beings quietly collaborating across borders to build something useful, durable, and elegant for the rest of us. And so this conversation is not just about codecs and media pipelines. It is also about the deeper spirit of engineering and generosity that makes projects like FFmpeg possible. Again, I can never say it enough. Thank you. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here’s Jean-Baptiste Kempf and Kieran Kunhya.
Weirdest things VLC opens
Lex Fridman
So the legend goes VLC can open everything. What’s the weirdest thing that you know that it can open?
So the legend goes VLC can open everything. What’s the weirdest thing that you know that it can open?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You know, there is a ton of people who are using VLC to record VHS videos, right? Like, it’s just like you plug it with a capture card and you can basically record VHS video.
You know, there is a ton of people who are using VLC to record VHS videos, right? Like, it’s just like you plug it with a capture card and you can basically record VHS video.
Lex Fridman
Well, how does that work?
Well, how does that work?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Basically, it’s, you know, those type of capture cards where you can put a Peritel in or- … or RCA, and you put that, and actually VLC can play those type of cards, and there is a module which allows to control directly some of those VCR camcorders. We support DVD-Audio lately, right? We spent the summer working on DVD-Audio support, and like there is no, no one’s making any DVD-Audio support. There are custom encryption schemes.
Basically, it’s, you know, those type of capture cards where you can put a Peritel in or- … or RCA, and you put that, and actually VLC can play those type of cards, and there is a module which allows to control directly some of those VCR camcorders. We support DVD-Audio lately, right? We spent the summer working on DVD-Audio support, and like there is no, no one’s making any DVD-Audio support. There are custom encryption schemes.
Lex Fridman
What about Lucasfilm?
What about Lucasfilm?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Oh, yeah, and there is of course all the weird codecs support, game codecs supported by FFmpeg.
Oh, yeah, and there is of course all the weird codecs support, game codecs supported by FFmpeg.
Lex Fridman
The one Star Wars video game, the first ten-second opening sequence, someone has gone and implemented that and made sure that’s bit exact on one disc that existed at one time of one little sequence in the game.
The one Star Wars video game, the first ten-second opening sequence, someone has gone and implemented that and made sure that’s bit exact on one disc that existed at one time of one little sequence in the game.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And then funnily, there was a… At one VideoLAN conference, we made a competition to make the weirdest and most horrible file ever- … and see if VLC could play it.
And then funnily, there was a… At one VideoLAN conference, we made a competition to make the weirdest and most horrible file ever- … and see if VLC could play it.
Lex Fridman
What did it end up being? What’s the file?
What did it end up being? What’s the file?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It was an MKV file made by Derek- … which each of the frame was changing resolution, aspect ratio, rotation, and… and it was like-
It was an MKV file made by Derek- … which each of the frame was changing resolution, aspect ratio, rotation, and… and it was like-
Lex Fridman
Did it work?
Did it work?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. And there was another one where the whole video was actually animated subtitles, right? SSA, right? So-
Yes. And there was another one where the whole video was actually animated subtitles, right? SSA, right? So-
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I remember that, yeah.
Yeah. I remember that, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… each, each, this one was-
… each, each, this one was-
Lex Fridman
It-
It-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so each frame was a black frame, but on top of that there was a subtitle that was animated for each frame.
And so each frame was a black frame, but on top of that there was a subtitle that was animated for each frame.
Lex Fridman
There was a file that’s a valid ZIP and a valid MP3 at the same time or something like that, so.
There was a file that’s a valid ZIP and a valid MP3 at the same time or something like that, so.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So yeah, we made a competition of stupid files.
So yeah, we made a competition of stupid files.
Lex Fridman
And it worked. It opened all of the stupid files.
And it worked. It opened all of the stupid files.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
By the way, for people who are not familiar, I am wearing a hat. Would it be fair to say this is the best worst logo of all time, the cone?
By the way, for people who are not familiar, I am wearing a hat. Would it be fair to say this is the best worst logo of all time, the cone?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, by far, right? The logo of VLC is so iconic, right? Like we are a team with a small number of people and the icon is known everywhere. I go to middle of nowhere in India or in China, people know the cone, right? And 25% of the website traffic that comes to our main website is cone player, right? So many people don’t know VLC, right? They know the cone player.
Yeah, by far, right? The logo of VLC is so iconic, right? Like we are a team with a small number of people and the icon is known everywhere. I go to middle of nowhere in India or in China, people know the cone, right? And 25% of the website traffic that comes to our main website is cone player, right? So many people don’t know VLC, right? They know the cone player.
Lex Fridman
That’s the thing they Google for is “cone player.”
That’s the thing they Google for is “cone player.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. They go on Google and they put “cone player” and they download VLC, right? So that’s iconic. And once we tried to change it as a joke, right? We said it was going to be a type of caterpillar construction and we said that during April 1st- … and we had around 10,000 emails saying, “No, don’t change the logo,” and so on, right? So it’s so iconic, right? It’s so distinctive, right? If you want to do a video player, you’re going to put a play button on a TV, right? And that’s a YouTube logo, right? It’s unoriginal. This one is orange, right? It’s very bright and it’s weird.
Yeah. They go on Google and they put “cone player” and they download VLC, right? So that’s iconic. And once we tried to change it as a joke, right? We said it was going to be a type of caterpillar construction and we said that during April 1st- … and we had around 10,000 emails saying, “No, don’t change the logo,” and so on, right? So it’s so iconic, right? It’s so distinctive, right? If you want to do a video player, you’re going to put a play button on a TV, right? And that’s a YouTube logo, right? It’s unoriginal. This one is orange, right? It’s very bright and it’s weird.
Lex Fridman
And it’s ridiculous and it’s absurd and it’s hilarious. It becomes meme and meme becomes culture. Yeah.
And it’s ridiculous and it’s absurd and it’s hilarious. It becomes meme and meme becomes culture. Yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And you keep it and you know about it and you know that in 20 years, like you still have, going to have the cones and remember, oh yeah, that was a video player.
And you keep it and you know about it and you know that in 20 years, like you still have, going to have the cones and remember, oh yeah, that was a video player.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. And we’ll talk about, you know, the mission of FFmpeg being a kinda the archival aspect of it. So you can think about 1,000 years from now we’ll have all these videos that only VLC can open. Humans, human civilization has already destroyed itself multiple times and the only thing that will remain is this like, you know, the cockroaches will be crawling around and it’ll be the VLC logo- … with our, some of the archival footage that VLC can open. And the aliens will show up and they’ll press play and they’ll get to see it all ’cause-
Yeah. And we’ll talk about, you know, the mission of FFmpeg being a kinda the archival aspect of it. So you can think about 1,000 years from now we’ll have all these videos that only VLC can open. Humans, human civilization has already destroyed itself multiple times and the only thing that will remain is this like, you know, the cockroaches will be crawling around and it’ll be the VLC logo- … with our, some of the archival footage that VLC can open. And the aliens will show up and they’ll press play and they’ll get to see it all ’cause-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Well, really, really hope so, right? But there is also so many memes where people say, “Well, I’m sure I can put a pancake inside my DVD drive and VLC will play it.” Like-
Well, really, really hope so, right? But there is also so many memes where people say, “Well, I’m sure I can put a pancake inside my DVD drive and VLC will play it.” Like-
Lex Fridman
Can they?
Can they?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, we tried. It doesn’t.
No, we tried. It doesn’t.
Lex Fridman
Doesn’t
Doesn’t
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… but we actually have a video of us trying that. Didn’t work.
… but we actually have a video of us trying that. Didn’t work.
Lex Fridman
A codec for physical reality, I don’t know what that would even look like.
A codec for physical reality, I don’t know what that would even look like.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There was a guy who did that, right? He printed a small cone, right? Like the ones we distribute as goodies and inside he put an RFID chip which was his way of playing a movie, right? And so he- … put this on a RFID player and when he put that it was playing like The Last Star Wars and so on. So instead of having like DVD boxes, he had like VLC cones all around and he plugged that and that was like physical objects.
There was a guy who did that, right? He printed a small cone, right? Like the ones we distribute as goodies and inside he put an RFID chip which was his way of playing a movie, right? And so he- … put this on a RFID player and when he put that it was playing like The Last Star Wars and so on. So instead of having like DVD boxes, he had like VLC cones all around and he plugged that and that was like physical objects.
How video playback works
Lex Fridman
So the thing that we’re talking about is everything around video codecs, video encoding, video decoding, video streaming, video player client that I’m wearing on my head, the entire ecosystem enabling free media. We’ll talk about FFmpeg, we’ll talk about VideoLAN, VLC and all the other incredible video technology that is used probably by billions of people. So JB, you’re the lead developer behind the legendary VLC player. Kieran, amongst many other things, you’re lead developer behind the legendary FFmpeg handle on Twitter. And both of you have spicy opinions I would say. So today we wanna talk about FFmpeg and VLC.
So the thing that we’re talking about is everything around video codecs, video encoding, video decoding, video streaming, video player client that I’m wearing on my head, the entire ecosystem enabling free media. We’ll talk about FFmpeg, we’ll talk about VideoLAN, VLC and all the other incredible video technology that is used probably by billions of people. So JB, you’re the lead developer behind the legendary VLC player. Kieran, amongst many other things, you’re lead developer behind the legendary FFmpeg handle on Twitter. And both of you have spicy opinions I would say. So today we wanna talk about FFmpeg and VLC.
Lex Fridman
For context for people who are not aware—and I’m sure basically everybody listening to this have used these two technologies probably regularly without knowing it. So FFmpeg underlies basically most video on the internet including YouTube, Netflix, Chrome, Firefox, of course VLC and countless other video platforms. It is estimated that over 90% of video processing workflows online and offline involve FFmpeg. VLC has been downloaded at least 6.5 billion times. But likely that number, ’cause it’s impossible to really count the number, is much higher than that. Virtually any operating system supports virtually any media format. The limitation being it can’t open pancakes. So can we just lay out some of the basics to, to help people understand what’s involved in all of this?
For context for people who are not aware—and I’m sure basically everybody listening to this have used these two technologies probably regularly without knowing it. So FFmpeg underlies basically most video on the internet including YouTube, Netflix, Chrome, Firefox, of course VLC and countless other video platforms. It is estimated that over 90% of video processing workflows online and offline involve FFmpeg. VLC has been downloaded at least 6.5 billion times. But likely that number, ’cause it’s impossible to really count the number, is much higher than that. Virtually any operating system supports virtually any media format. The limitation being it can’t open pancakes. So can we just lay out some of the basics to, to help people understand what’s involved in all of this?
Lex Fridman
So when we press play on a video player like VLC, what happens? How does it go from the file or the stream to the pixels on the screen and the sound on the speaker? What are the big stages to be aware of?
So when we press play on a video player like VLC, what happens? How does it go from the file or the stream to the pixels on the screen and the sound on the speaker? What are the big stages to be aware of?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So there are several stages, right? The first stage is to get from an address, right, which is the type of URL, to give you a byte of streams, right? So this would be, for example, HTTP, file, DVD, right? You give the path to the media, and it gives you a stream of data.
So there are several stages, right? The first stage is to get from an address, right, which is the type of URL, to give you a byte of streams, right? So this would be, for example, HTTP, file, DVD, right? You give the path to the media, and it gives you a stream of data.
Kieran Kunhya
The stream needs to be cut up by what’s known as the container, the demultiplexer or demux. We’ll try and keep the jargon light throughout this, but it needs to go and start demarcating video and audio frames. So it just gets data from the operating system blocks at a time and needs to start cutting these frames up into compressed data. It then needs to start doing simple parsing of the video frames-
The stream needs to be cut up by what’s known as the container, the demultiplexer or demux. We’ll try and keep the jargon light throughout this, but it needs to go and start demarcating video and audio frames. So it just gets data from the operating system blocks at a time and needs to start cutting these frames up into compressed data. It then needs to start doing simple parsing of the video frames-
Kieran Kunhya
… mainly to figure out whether that codec is GPU decodable or needs to fall back to software. We’re very sort of used to assuming the GPU will play all of these things. There’ll be hardware acceleration. I think it’s up to forty-five percent of files are not GPU decodable. So these need to be probed. They need to be detected. There can be variants of a given codec, some of which are decodable on the GPU. Different vendors of GPU might have different capabilities, so those need to be detected. So if, if it’s GPU capable, you pass it through to the GPU black box. So now if there’s a software fallback, that means in the beginning is, is to first do deentropy coding, so removing the mathematical coding of the bit stream.
… mainly to figure out whether that codec is GPU decodable or needs to fall back to software. We’re very sort of used to assuming the GPU will play all of these things. There’ll be hardware acceleration. I think it’s up to forty-five percent of files are not GPU decodable. So these need to be probed. They need to be detected. There can be variants of a given codec, some of which are decodable on the GPU. Different vendors of GPU might have different capabilities, so those need to be detected. So if, if it’s GPU capable, you pass it through to the GPU black box. So now if there’s a software fallback, that means in the beginning is, is to first do deentropy coding, so removing the mathematical coding of the bit stream.
Kieran Kunhya
So this uses capabilities such as Huffman coding or arithmetic coding to actually decompress the mathematical layer of the bit stream. We then need to start reading the syntax elements for intra prediction. So intra prediction are like still images of the video, so your I-frames. So this works and operates in the spatial domain. So you do your intra prediction in spatial domain. You have a residual because your prediction isn’t quite matching that of reality. So you’ve made a prediction, but then there’s a little bit left, and that’s what’s known as the residual. This is stored in the frequency domain, and these are quantized to decompact their space. We then need to do the inverse transform to bring them back to the spatial domain and apply these residuals.
So this uses capabilities such as Huffman coding or arithmetic coding to actually decompress the mathematical layer of the bit stream. We then need to start reading the syntax elements for intra prediction. So intra prediction are like still images of the video, so your I-frames. So this works and operates in the spatial domain. So you do your intra prediction in spatial domain. You have a residual because your prediction isn’t quite matching that of reality. So you’ve made a prediction, but then there’s a little bit left, and that’s what’s known as the residual. This is stored in the frequency domain, and these are quantized to decompact their space. We then need to do the inverse transform to bring them back to the spatial domain and apply these residuals.
Lex Fridman
So a lot of the process of the decoding is this thing is compressed. And you have to predict the highest quality thing that’s supposed to go there. I-frame- … is the best representation you have spatially.
So a lot of the process of the decoding is this thing is compressed. And you have to predict the highest quality thing that’s supposed to go there. I-frame- … is the best representation you have spatially.
Kieran Kunhya
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
And then there’s a lot of temporal compression that can happen depending on the codec, and then you’re predicting. You’re predicting what the reality that was captured in this rawest form.
And then there’s a lot of temporal compression that can happen depending on the codec, and then you’re predicting. You’re predicting what the reality that was captured in this rawest form.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, because what people don’t realize is that the compression on video and audio is one hundred times, right? Like, people don’t realize how compressed we do, right? For audio, you move, you compress by, when you go from normal audio to MP3, you compress by ten times, right? When you move to video, you need one hundred times, two hundred times, right? So you need to remove all the details, but that you don’t care about because all the compressions that we do, and that’s very important, people forget about that, is to be viewed by humans, right?
Yeah, because what people don’t realize is that the compression on video and audio is one hundred times, right? Like, people don’t realize how compressed we do, right? For audio, you move, you compress by, when you go from normal audio to MP3, you compress by ten times, right? When you move to video, you need one hundred times, two hundred times, right? So you need to remove all the details, but that you don’t care about because all the compressions that we do, and that’s very important, people forget about that, is to be viewed by humans, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So all the codecs, either for audio, mimic basically how your ear works, right? And a lot of things about, like, the response on the ear and same for your eyes, right? And so, for example, on video, we don’t work on RGB, right? Everyone expect to work in RGB. We don’t, right? We move to YUV, which is basically one is luminance, brightness, and the other are colors. And this matches your eyes, where inside your eyes you have the cones and the rods, right? With some of them look on brightness and more on the other on colors, right? So we need to compress a lot, and so we need to degrade. But in order to degrade, we need to match the human perception, and this is why it’s so difficult.
So all the codecs, either for audio, mimic basically how your ear works, right? And a lot of things about, like, the response on the ear and same for your eyes, right? And so, for example, on video, we don’t work on RGB, right? Everyone expect to work in RGB. We don’t, right? We move to YUV, which is basically one is luminance, brightness, and the other are colors. And this matches your eyes, where inside your eyes you have the cones and the rods, right? With some of them look on brightness and more on the other on colors, right? So we need to compress a lot, and so we need to degrade. But in order to degrade, we need to match the human perception, and this is why it’s so difficult.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And then we need to use the maximum power, mathematical power, very complex technologies. We move to the frequency domain, as Kieran said. We do a ton of dequantizing in order to get the best compression, but it still looks good.
And then we need to use the maximum power, mathematical power, very complex technologies. We move to the frequency domain, as Kieran said. We do a ton of dequantizing in order to get the best compression, but it still looks good.
Lex Fridman
You’re trying to compress in order to maximize the highest quality thing for human perception.
You’re trying to compress in order to maximize the highest quality thing for human perception.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
That is correct. And this is very important, right? Compression is not like a ZIP, right? A ZIP, you have data in, you get data out, right? And you try with all the ZIP compression to arrive with the limit. Here we are degrading the signal, right? And so we need to degrade both the audio and the video signal in the best way possible. And we can do that, but it involves, first, a lot of theoretical knowledge about how the eye works, but a lot of mathematical change, a lot of mathematical tricks, right? For example, when you move to RGB and you go to YUV, for example, what we do very often is that we scale down the resolution of the color compared to the brightness.
That is correct. And this is very important, right? Compression is not like a ZIP, right? A ZIP, you have data in, you get data out, right? And you try with all the ZIP compression to arrive with the limit. Here we are degrading the signal, right? And so we need to degrade both the audio and the video signal in the best way possible. And we can do that, but it involves, first, a lot of theoretical knowledge about how the eye works, but a lot of mathematical change, a lot of mathematical tricks, right? For example, when you move to RGB and you go to YUV, for example, what we do very often is that we scale down the resolution of the color compared to the brightness.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And most of the time, and just this without compression, it divides the size by two, but most people don’t see it, right? And so on and so on, right? And then you go to very complex mathematical change. So of course Fourier transforms, which de facto are not Fourier transforms, they are like discrete cosine transforms, but that’s the same idea. So frequency domain we split the video by blocks, right? So that’s why when it’s wrongly decoded, you see those blocks, and badly encoded, you see those blocks, and so on, to arrive to compression states that are insanely high, right? And each generation of the codec is like thirty percent less- … for the same quality, right? And this requires amount of power, of computational power, that are huge.
And most of the time, and just this without compression, it divides the size by two, but most people don’t see it, right? And so on and so on, right? And then you go to very complex mathematical change. So of course Fourier transforms, which de facto are not Fourier transforms, they are like discrete cosine transforms, but that’s the same idea. So frequency domain we split the video by blocks, right? So that’s why when it’s wrongly decoded, you see those blocks, and badly encoded, you see those blocks, and so on, to arrive to compression states that are insanely high, right? And each generation of the codec is like thirty percent less- … for the same quality, right? And this requires amount of power, of computational power, that are huge.
Kieran Kunhya
No, no, but you should, you should elaborate. It’s thirty percent better, but an order of magnitude, perhaps, perhaps even two orders of magnitude more compression power. That’s the big difference.
No, no, but you should, you should elaborate. It’s thirty percent better, but an order of magnitude, perhaps, perhaps even two orders of magnitude more compression power. That’s the big difference.
Lex Fridman
What do you mean by compression power?
What do you mean by compression power?
Kieran Kunhya
Sorry, CPU power to achieve that level of compression.
Sorry, CPU power to achieve that level of compression.
Lex Fridman
Oh, yeah. So and you have to be able to leverage the CPU and sometimes GPU, like you mentioned. And then we should mention that a lot of this programming is done at the lowest possible- … stack, whether it’s C and of course, as, as the legendary- … Twitter handle re-emphasizes over and over, a lot of assembly.
Oh, yeah. So and you have to be able to leverage the CPU and sometimes GPU, like you mentioned. And then we should mention that a lot of this programming is done at the lowest possible- … stack, whether it’s C and of course, as, as the legendary- … Twitter handle re-emphasizes over and over, a lot of assembly.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So what happens globally is that you have an address, right? Which gives you with the operating system, a stream of bytes, a stream of data, right? And this is the first step. And the second step arises with demuxing, where you’re going to separate audio, video, subtitle in type of different tracks. And then on each of those tracks, you’re going to decompress them, decode them, either audio with an audio codec, video to video codec, and subtitle to subtitle codec. And once you’ve decompressed those type of things, you have raw images, raw, and then you’re going to talk with your graphic card in your screen and display that. And same for the audio, you’re going to talk to your audio card, which then is going to go in analog to your audio speakers.
So what happens globally is that you have an address, right? Which gives you with the operating system, a stream of bytes, a stream of data, right? And this is the first step. And the second step arises with demuxing, where you’re going to separate audio, video, subtitle in type of different tracks. And then on each of those tracks, you’re going to decompress them, decode them, either audio with an audio codec, video to video codec, and subtitle to subtitle codec. And once you’ve decompressed those type of things, you have raw images, raw, and then you’re going to talk with your graphic card in your screen and display that. And same for the audio, you’re going to talk to your audio card, which then is going to go in analog to your audio speakers.
Kieran Kunhya
And everything we’ve just said in the past couple of minutes, every sentence is someone’s lifetime’s work. There are books about- … every sentence. So the level of complexity in many cases is inordinate. You know, it’s… Every sentence has thousands of people working on this- … in industry as a whole, books written about it. So there’s a lot of detail, there’s a lot of subtleties, there’s a lot of both academic and practical realities, both of which matter.
And everything we’ve just said in the past couple of minutes, every sentence is someone’s lifetime’s work. There are books about- … every sentence. So the level of complexity in many cases is inordinate. You know, it’s… Every sentence has thousands of people working on this- … in industry as a whole, books written about it. So there’s a lot of detail, there’s a lot of subtleties, there’s a lot of both academic and practical realities, both of which matter.
Video codecs and containers
Lex Fridman
We mentioned codecs, but I don’t think you mentioned containers. So what are the actual containers for some of the stuff we’re talking about? So people are familiar with MP4, MOV, MKV. So anyway, what are containers versus the thing that goes inside?
We mentioned codecs, but I don’t think you mentioned containers. So what are the actual containers for some of the stuff we’re talking about? So people are familiar with MP4, MOV, MKV. So anyway, what are containers versus the thing that goes inside?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So the container is what we call also the muxer, right? When I say demuxing, it means decontainerizing, right? So actually, if you look, mux means multiplexer and demultiplexer, right? Mux and demux are those. And same, a codec is actually coder, decoder, right? And so containers are this collection of multiple tracks, right? So it’s a, what normal people call the file format, but it’s a bit more subtle than that. But the most known one, of course, is MP4, but when I started, it was AVI, right? AVI was the video format from-
So the container is what we call also the muxer, right? When I say demuxing, it means decontainerizing, right? So actually, if you look, mux means multiplexer and demultiplexer, right? Mux and demux are those. And same, a codec is actually coder, decoder, right? And so containers are this collection of multiple tracks, right? So it’s a, what normal people call the file format, but it’s a bit more subtle than that. But the most known one, of course, is MP4, but when I started, it was AVI, right? AVI was the video format from-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… from Microsoft, and MOV, M-O-V, which became MP4, was a format from Apple. In the open source community one of the person that is still active on VideoLAN is called Steve Lhomme and sta- started this Matroska format, which is, like, a bit more complex and, and, and more future-proof. And there are so many others.
… from Microsoft, and MOV, M-O-V, which became MP4, was a format from Apple. In the open source community one of the person that is still active on VideoLAN is called Steve Lhomme and sta- started this Matroska format, which is, like, a bit more complex and, and, and more future-proof. And there are so many others.
Lex Fridman
So, I mean, there’s a, it’s a pretty common thing, and maybe it’ll even happen in this conversation, that people confuse container and the codec, right? So confuse MP4 and H.264, for example. Is that a horrible violation?
So, I mean, there’s a, it’s a pretty common thing, and maybe it’ll even happen in this conversation, that people confuse container and the codec, right? So confuse MP4 and H.264, for example. Is that a horrible violation?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, it’s not, because technically the name of H.264 is MPEG-4 Part 10. Because MPEG-4 is actually a meta specification which has several things in it, right? There is the Part 2. So there is, like, audio codecs, right? AAC de facto is MP4 audio- … something. There is actually several video codecs, right, inside the MPEG-4 specification. One of them is MPEG-4 Part 10, called also AVC, called also H.264. Right? So it’s completely the fault of the industry to make things difficult to understand. So that’s very difficult so that people then don’t understand why sometimes you talk about MPEG-4 Part 10, where you mean H.264, and why it’s not MP4.
No, it’s not, because technically the name of H.264 is MPEG-4 Part 10. Because MPEG-4 is actually a meta specification which has several things in it, right? There is the Part 2. So there is, like, audio codecs, right? AAC de facto is MP4 audio- … something. There is actually several video codecs, right, inside the MPEG-4 specification. One of them is MPEG-4 Part 10, called also AVC, called also H.264. Right? So it’s completely the fault of the industry to make things difficult to understand. So that’s very difficult so that people then don’t understand why sometimes you talk about MPEG-4 Part 10, where you mean H.264, and why it’s not MP4.
Lex Fridman
So you can technically shove in all kinds of different codecs inside containers and horribly so.
So you can technically shove in all kinds of different codecs inside containers and horribly so.
Kieran Kunhya
But broadly speaking, though, MP4 is understood to generally be H.264 plus AAC audio. 99% of the time that’s that, and that, the, the rest are de minimis, the small effects, you know, edge effects really compared to that. So it’s not the end of the world. There are people who do get annoyed by that. But also in reality, something like VLC, just to point out, the file may say .MP4, but it may be something completely different, and that’s one of the challenges both FFmpeg and VLC have is the real world is a completely different place to a three-letter file format.
But broadly speaking, though, MP4 is understood to generally be H.264 plus AAC audio. 99% of the time that’s that, and that, the, the rest are de minimis, the small effects, you know, edge effects really compared to that. So it’s not the end of the world. There are people who do get annoyed by that. But also in reality, something like VLC, just to point out, the file may say .MP4, but it may be something completely different, and that’s one of the challenges both FFmpeg and VLC have is the real world is a completely different place to a three-letter file format.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And this is very important to say, right? Like, for example, in VLC and in FFmpeg, we discard the file format, right? We look into the file to understand what’s in it because so many people, like, they say, “Oh, it’s a video, it must be MP4,” but technically it’s an MOV or maybe it’s a MKV, right? So we analyze in real time everything that we have, and we don’t trust- … the format.
And this is very important to say, right? Like, for example, in VLC and in FFmpeg, we discard the file format, right? We look into the file to understand what’s in it because so many people, like, they say, “Oh, it’s a video, it must be MP4,” but technically it’s an MOV or maybe it’s a MKV, right? So we analyze in real time everything that we have, and we don’t trust- … the format.
Lex Fridman
So what information does the fact that it’s .MP4 give you?
So what information does the fact that it’s .MP4 give you?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It helps, right? It gives you a hint, right? Just like, oh, it’s finished by .MP4. I will start first by opening, probing it with the MP4 container demuxer to see, well, it should be that. But I don’t trust it, and if I’m lost, I say, “Okay, maybe I’m going to try it.” So it bumps the priority of the module.
It helps, right? It gives you a hint, right? Just like, oh, it’s finished by .MP4. I will start first by opening, probing it with the MP4 container demuxer to see, well, it should be that. But I don’t trust it, and if I’m lost, I say, “Okay, maybe I’m going to try it.” So it bumps the priority of the module.
Lex Fridman
So how do you get to—just to take a bit of a tangent there. You know, the dumb thing is if you try the MP4, but it turns out it’s a different codec than you would have expected, most players just break there. And so how do you not break? There’s just philosophically, I’m sure there’s a bunch of stumbling blocks along the way where it’s easy to just break and stop, freak out. That’s it. How does VLC not?
So how do you get to—just to take a bit of a tangent there. You know, the dumb thing is if you try the MP4, but it turns out it’s a different codec than you would have expected, most players just break there. And so how do you not break? There’s just philosophically, I’m sure there’s a bunch of stumbling blocks along the way where it’s easy to just break and stop, freak out. That’s it. How does VLC not?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
This is why VLC is popular. But the reason is because actually VLC was, is just a client of a streaming solution called VideoLAN from a very long time ago, from the late ’90s. And when you’re playing video which are on UDP, right, in network, they might be damaged, right? So you don’t trust your inputs, and this is very important into the security is that you don’t trust your inputs. So everything in VLC is prepared to work with broken files. And it’s a philosophical idea from the beginning, and everything is engineered into that. And it’s a culture, right? And so, for example… And VLC became very popular on that because a long time ago when people were pirating content which they do a lot less today, um-
This is why VLC is popular. But the reason is because actually VLC was, is just a client of a streaming solution called VideoLAN from a very long time ago, from the late ’90s. And when you’re playing video which are on UDP, right, in network, they might be damaged, right? So you don’t trust your inputs, and this is very important into the security is that you don’t trust your inputs. So everything in VLC is prepared to work with broken files. And it’s a philosophical idea from the beginning, and everything is engineered into that. And it’s a culture, right? And so, for example… And VLC became very popular on that because a long time ago when people were pirating content which they do a lot less today, um-
Lex Fridman
And none of us ever have-
And none of us ever have-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, of course not. Um- … the metadata to play some files like AVI is at, at the end of the file, right? And when you’re downloading, you don’t have that, right? So VLC was just like, “Hey, this file is broken, but I’m still going to try to interpret it,” and this was very useful.
No, of course not. Um- … the metadata to play some files like AVI is at, at the end of the file, right? And when you’re downloading, you don’t have that, right? So VLC was just like, “Hey, this file is broken, but I’m still going to try to interpret it,” and this was very useful.
Lex Fridman
We hinted at the awesomeness of the various different stages. We hinted at the awesomeness of codecs, the depth and the richness and the complexity of everything involved there. What— Let’s try to define what is a video codec? What’s involved there? What does it mean to compress something? You already started to hint at it— … but can, can we elaborate a little bit more?
We hinted at the awesomeness of the various different stages. We hinted at the awesomeness of codecs, the depth and the richness and the complexity of everything involved there. What— Let’s try to define what is a video codec? What’s involved there? What does it mean to compress something? You already started to hint at it— … but can, can we elaborate a little bit more?
Kieran Kunhya
So there’s a huge amount of redundancy in any video, both spatial and temporal, and the point of any video codec is to remove this redundant data, use mathematical properties as part of this reduction process. So more often than not, using several orders of magnitude more compute to compress because that’s more costly, both financially and in CPU resources— … versus the decompression. So it’s asymmetric in that respect. Often the case because compression is done once, but there could be lots of viewers of another file.
So there’s a huge amount of redundancy in any video, both spatial and temporal, and the point of any video codec is to remove this redundant data, use mathematical properties as part of this reduction process. So more often than not, using several orders of magnitude more compute to compress because that’s more costly, both financially and in CPU resources— … versus the decompression. So it’s asymmetric in that respect. Often the case because compression is done once, but there could be lots of viewers of another file.
Kieran Kunhya
So to take that information and compress it by 100x, 200x, removing redundant information and using mathematical properties to make that small, but also have properties such as error resilience. So as JB suggested, VLC in the beginning was used to play UDP network feeds, and UDP network feeds lose packets. And so some of the design goals of a codec is also to be recoverable. You need to actually be able to join a stream. It’s not necessarily a file. You need to join, get on the decoding process, and start decoding.
So to take that information and compress it by 100x, 200x, removing redundant information and using mathematical properties to make that small, but also have properties such as error resilience. So as JB suggested, VLC in the beginning was used to play UDP network feeds, and UDP network feeds lose packets. And so some of the design goals of a codec is also to be recoverable. You need to actually be able to join a stream. It’s not necessarily a file. You need to join, get on the decoding process, and start decoding.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And to give a more image to people who are not familiar, right? Like, when you’re going to see any type of movie, right? You’re going to see the camera is going to pan, right, and travel. And you realize that, for example, all the background is the same for like a minute, right? Or— … thirty seconds, right? So you can reuse the cloud that you see on the background, you can reuse that from a frame to another, right? And so it gets the more, the more memory you have, the more power, the more comparisons you can make, right? And so the more compressed you can be. And most of the modern codecs are basically doing that.
And to give a more image to people who are not familiar, right? Like, when you’re going to see any type of movie, right? You’re going to see the camera is going to pan, right, and travel. And you realize that, for example, all the background is the same for like a minute, right? Or— … thirty seconds, right? So you can reuse the cloud that you see on the background, you can reuse that from a frame to another, right? And so it gets the more, the more memory you have, the more power, the more comparisons you can make, right? And so the more compressed you can be. And most of the modern codecs are basically doing that.
Lex Fridman
So just to make it even more explicit. So what is video? Video is a bunch of pixels off an RGB. You have three values, and you have a grid of pixels, and you have, let’s say, twenty-four or thirty or sixty frames a second, and you just have all these pixels repeating and showing different stuff- … thirty times a second. And so the question, the philosophical, the technical question is, how can I compress all of that, store all of that at 100x?
So just to make it even more explicit. So what is video? Video is a bunch of pixels off an RGB. You have three values, and you have a grid of pixels, and you have, let’s say, twenty-four or thirty or sixty frames a second, and you just have all these pixels repeating and showing different stuff- … thirty times a second. And so the question, the philosophical, the technical question is, how can I compress all of that, store all of that at 100x?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yep. Or 1,000x, right?
Yep. Or 1,000x, right?
Lex Fridman
1,000x.
1,000x.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The, the target is 1,000x, right?
The, the target is 1,000x, right?
Lex Fridman
And the goal is when you say redundancy, what is redundant? Meaning stuff at best that humans wouldn’t notice if it was missing.
And the goal is when you say redundancy, what is redundant? Meaning stuff at best that humans wouldn’t notice if it was missing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So for example, you have a picture of a cloud, right? And from the next frame, it’s still going to be the same cloud, so it’s redundant. You could just put it once and not do it, right? Or you have a black background behind me, for example. The black is the same on the whole picture, right? So you can say, “Well, you know, in this picture, take the pixels that you have on the top left and the one on the top right. I’m not going to give the value. I’m just going to tell you it’s the same at the top left.” And then you can say for frame one, reuse something from the previous frame or the previous, previous frame, and so on and so on, right? So you could… Basically, it’s unlimited, but then it’s limited in terms of memory or in terms of compute power.
So for example, you have a picture of a cloud, right? And from the next frame, it’s still going to be the same cloud, so it’s redundant. You could just put it once and not do it, right? Or you have a black background behind me, for example. The black is the same on the whole picture, right? So you can say, “Well, you know, in this picture, take the pixels that you have on the top left and the one on the top right. I’m not going to give the value. I’m just going to tell you it’s the same at the top left.” And then you can say for frame one, reuse something from the previous frame or the previous, previous frame, and so on and so on, right? So you could… Basically, it’s unlimited, but then it’s limited in terms of memory or in terms of compute power.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Because, for example, if you need to compare pixels on two hundred frames in the past on 4K resolutions, it’s a huge amount of compute.
Because, for example, if you need to compare pixels on two hundred frames in the past on 4K resolutions, it’s a huge amount of compute.
Lex Fridman
And then when you’re showing it, you have to do the decompress of all of that. So is it the codec, has the encoding and the decoding is a coupled process that you’re developing?
And then when you’re showing it, you have to do the decompress of all of that. So is it the codec, has the encoding and the decoding is a coupled process that you’re developing?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, exactly, right. And those are two different trade-offs, right? Are you going to compress more? But then it might be more difficult to decode. Are you going to make it a codec that is more complex to encode and easier to decode? Are you going to make a codec that is easier to encode because you need to be fast, but then the client side, the player is going to spend more time? That’s why you have so many different types of codecs, is that it’s not always easy. And to make it even more complex, modern codecs like AV1, AV2, or VVC are actually not codecs. They are a collection of tools, right? There are multiple tools, multiple codecs in the same codec to, depending on the image, get the more compression.
Yes, exactly, right. And those are two different trade-offs, right? Are you going to compress more? But then it might be more difficult to decode. Are you going to make it a codec that is more complex to encode and easier to decode? Are you going to make a codec that is easier to encode because you need to be fast, but then the client side, the player is going to spend more time? That’s why you have so many different types of codecs, is that it’s not always easy. And to make it even more complex, modern codecs like AV1, AV2, or VVC are actually not codecs. They are a collection of tools, right? There are multiple tools, multiple codecs in the same codec to, depending on the image, get the more compression.
Kieran Kunhya
So just to elaborate, codecs like AV1, VVC have a much wide, have a wide audience. It could be a screen share content, it could be video, it could be animation. All of these require different coding tools. So what happens these days is a collection of tools are put in and called AV1 and called AV2, called VVC to allow for different use cases. So you may be on Zoom and sharing your PowerPoint, and then you need to show the audience a video. That codec needs to start changing its tool set depending on the content to compress in a different way.
So just to elaborate, codecs like AV1, VVC have a much wide, have a wide audience. It could be a screen share content, it could be video, it could be animation. All of these require different coding tools. So what happens these days is a collection of tools are put in and called AV1 and called AV2, called VVC to allow for different use cases. So you may be on Zoom and sharing your PowerPoint, and then you need to show the audience a video. That codec needs to start changing its tool set depending on the content to compress in a different way.
Lex Fridman
And like you said, there’s a, a bunch of incredible engineers behind each part of that, each part of the tools that make up AV1, for example.
And like you said, there’s a, a bunch of incredible engineers behind each part of that, each part of the tools that make up AV1, for example.
Kieran Kunhya
Sure.
Sure.
FFmpeg explained
Lex Fridman
So we’ve kind of danced around it. We talked about VLC, the logo, the hat. Let’s talk about FFmpeg. What, what is FFmpeg exactly?
So we’ve kind of danced around it. We talked about VLC, the logo, the hat. Let’s talk about FFmpeg. What, what is FFmpeg exactly?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
FFmpeg is basically the low-level libraries for codec, so compressions and decompression, muxers and demuxers, and filters. It’s– The core is this, and then you have a several tool which allow you to create a type of pipeline to process any type of video files. And it’s used as a library absolutely inside everything from VLC to Chrome to your smart TVs, to basically any video that you see online you usually use FFmpeg. And FFmpeg in it has all those type of tools, and sometimes depend on other libraries like x264, libvpx, and others, right? So, so it’s really now the de facto tool to process images.
FFmpeg is basically the low-level libraries for codec, so compressions and decompression, muxers and demuxers, and filters. It’s– The core is this, and then you have a several tool which allow you to create a type of pipeline to process any type of video files. And it’s used as a library absolutely inside everything from VLC to Chrome to your smart TVs, to basically any video that you see online you usually use FFmpeg. And FFmpeg in it has all those type of tools, and sometimes depend on other libraries like x264, libvpx, and others, right? So, so it’s really now the de facto tool to process images.
Kieran Kunhya
From a philosophical level, I think it’s incredible that your home videos, your, your grandmother’s home videos and trillion-dollar corporations effectively are on a level playing field using the same technology stack. It’s– it wouldn’t be a surprise, you know, these big companies just have three thousand-line FFmpeg commands. There are some that use the API, but there are some that just have long command lines.
From a philosophical level, I think it’s incredible that your home videos, your, your grandmother’s home videos and trillion-dollar corporations effectively are on a level playing field using the same technology stack. It’s– it wouldn’t be a surprise, you know, these big companies just have three thousand-line FFmpeg commands. There are some that use the API, but there are some that just have long command lines.
Lex Fridman
So yeah, there’s a bunch of tools, like literally command line tool, FFmpeg, of course, FFprobe. There’s libraries, libavcodec, libavformat, libavfilter. But the FFmpeg on the command line- … is, like, legendary because you can cut– Like, there’s so many parameters. You can customize everything to hell.
So yeah, there’s a bunch of tools, like literally command line tool, FFmpeg, of course, FFprobe. There’s libraries, libavcodec, libavformat, libavfilter. But the FFmpeg on the command line- … is, like, legendary because you can cut– Like, there’s so many parameters. You can customize everything to hell.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It’s a language. It’s an actual language.
It’s a language. It’s an actual language.
Lex Fridman
It’s an actual– yeah, you could think of it as a programming language.
It’s an actual– yeah, you could think of it as a programming language.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, of course, I’m sure. Because– So most of the people, they’re going to take FFmpeg, file in, file out, and specify the format, right? But you can– We’ve seen thousands of characters, and we’ve seen also, like, people doing programming generation of command lines to make FFmpeg. There is a ton of people who are using AI to generate command lines for FFmpeg because you have no idea what it is. But you can specify so many filters, right on command line, right? So FFmpeg is this collection of toolbox for multimedia processing that everyone, everyone uses. And everyone that is watching your videos are also using, right? You’re on YouTube. Well, it’s FFmpeg on the client side. Well, the server side, on the server side. The client side is probably Chrome. Well, you’re using FFmpeg also.
Yeah, of course, I’m sure. Because– So most of the people, they’re going to take FFmpeg, file in, file out, and specify the format, right? But you can– We’ve seen thousands of characters, and we’ve seen also, like, people doing programming generation of command lines to make FFmpeg. There is a ton of people who are using AI to generate command lines for FFmpeg because you have no idea what it is. But you can specify so many filters, right on command line, right? So FFmpeg is this collection of toolbox for multimedia processing that everyone, everyone uses. And everyone that is watching your videos are also using, right? You’re on YouTube. Well, it’s FFmpeg on the client side. Well, the server side, on the server side. The client side is probably Chrome. Well, you’re using FFmpeg also.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And you’re using OBS to record. Well, it’s FFmpeg, right? You’re using a ton of important, like, big box, professional boxes. Well, it’s very possible that inside some part of FFmpeg is running.
And you’re using OBS to record. Well, it’s FFmpeg, right? You’re using a ton of important, like, big box, professional boxes. Well, it’s very possible that inside some part of FFmpeg is running.
Lex Fridman
I mean, there’s like so many, just to give people an idea, like I use FFmpeg a lot on everything. Just trivial stuff like take a video, add an intro video and an outro video, and fade one into the other like what is it called? Dip to black, like where it dips and then shows the next video and does the same thing with audio. There’s like a cross dissolve of the audio. It quiets the audio and makes it loud again. And then there’s a bunch of stuff like showing the captions on screen card, like baking the captions in. You can customize the font. You can do all kinds of layering of audio and video. There’s a million things and of course, all of that works like magically with basically any codec. Like anything you can shove in on the audio and the video side, it works.
I mean, there’s like so many, just to give people an idea, like I use FFmpeg a lot on everything. Just trivial stuff like take a video, add an intro video and an outro video, and fade one into the other like what is it called? Dip to black, like where it dips and then shows the next video and does the same thing with audio. There’s like a cross dissolve of the audio. It quiets the audio and makes it loud again. And then there’s a bunch of stuff like showing the captions on screen card, like baking the captions in. You can customize the font. You can do all kinds of layering of audio and video. There’s a million things and of course, all of that works like magically with basically any codec. Like anything you can shove in on the audio and the video side, it works.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But it’s like if you look at, for example, you can do things that you would do with Adobe After Effects- … in command line on FFmpeg, right? It’s, and it’s very interesting because, for example, for images, there is not such tool. There is a few tools, but not with the breadth of FFmpeg.
But it’s like if you look at, for example, you can do things that you would do with Adobe After Effects- … in command line on FFmpeg, right? It’s, and it’s very interesting because, for example, for images, there is not such tool. There is a few tools, but not with the breadth of FFmpeg.
Lex Fridman
So ImageMagick has a similar kind of-
So ImageMagick has a similar kind of-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, but you will not-
Yes, but you will not-
Lex Fridman
… spirit, but it-
… spirit, but it-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… do some filters, complex filters. You don’t have the equivalent of Photoshop- … in command line, right? But for video, you have FFmpeg in command line.
… do some filters, complex filters. You don’t have the equivalent of Photoshop- … in command line, right? But for video, you have FFmpeg in command line.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. It’s incredible. I mean, it’s like an, it’s an example of a thing when a bunch of great people get together and they get a vision, and they stick by that vision for many years, which is incredible.
Yeah. It’s incredible. I mean, it’s like an, it’s an example of a thing when a bunch of great people get together and they get a vision, and they stick by that vision for many years, which is incredible.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And the vision behind, and the same for VLC and FFmpeg, is that we make everything that is very complex easy to use for the normal people, for everyone. Right? Our goal is to make something that is insanely complex technically and make it easy to use, right? And people, they use VLC, they drop a file. They don’t realize how complex the file is, but they play it. Or people put any type of thing inside FFmpeg with complex filters, and it just works like magically, right? And people- And this is our mission, right? Make very complex things.
And the vision behind, and the same for VLC and FFmpeg, is that we make everything that is very complex easy to use for the normal people, for everyone. Right? Our goal is to make something that is insanely complex technically and make it easy to use, right? And people, they use VLC, they drop a file. They don’t realize how complex the file is, but they play it. Or people put any type of thing inside FFmpeg with complex filters, and it just works like magically, right? And people- And this is our mission, right? Make very complex things.
Kieran Kunhya
We wouldn’t be here and you wouldn’t be here if this required, you know, a traditional television studio setup. It’s tools like FFmpeg that democratize this. The podcast and streaming revolution, the YouTube revolution- … was caused. You know, FFmpeg was a big player in that because it democratized this technology that was once in the nineties, for example, you needed equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to do compression. It was the size of a car, and now everybody has that at almost an exact level playing field, and that’s something that’s so remarkable.
We wouldn’t be here and you wouldn’t be here if this required, you know, a traditional television studio setup. It’s tools like FFmpeg that democratize this. The podcast and streaming revolution, the YouTube revolution- … was caused. You know, FFmpeg was a big player in that because it democratized this technology that was once in the nineties, for example, you needed equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to do compression. It was the size of a car, and now everybody has that at almost an exact level playing field, and that’s something that’s so remarkable.
Lex Fridman
It gave voice to a lot of people. And just to clarify, we say you wouldn’t be here—not the human, but the podcast.
It gave voice to a lot of people. And just to clarify, we say you wouldn’t be here—not the human, but the podcast.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The podcast. Oh, sorry. You as a… Sorry.
The podcast. Oh, sorry. You as a… Sorry.
Lex Fridman
I would still… VLC did not have anything to do on a biological level- … at creating me as a human.
I would still… VLC did not have anything to do on a biological level- … at creating me as a human.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But it’s like you realize also everything moved from text to images and images to video, right? Look at social networks. Video is everywhere. It’s the most powerful medium there is, right? And when you see shorts and Reels and TikTok, right? It’s amazingly powerful to give… Video is amazing for that, right? But the complexity is important.
But it’s like you realize also everything moved from text to images and images to video, right? Look at social networks. Video is everywhere. It’s the most powerful medium there is, right? And when you see shorts and Reels and TikTok, right? It’s amazingly powerful to give… Video is amazing for that, right? But the complexity is important.
Lex Fridman
This is what people don’t realize. I mean, this is really—it gave power to the individual all across the world. That’s real freedom. And I think, I can’t believe it, but we still haven’t mentioned the actual obvious thing for people who are not familiar, which it’s open source, and there’s an open source community of users and developers behind it. So it’s really a movement. So, like, we’ll talk in a bunch of different ways about the community behind it. But can you speak to the open source element? So when we say what is FFmpeg, it’s an open source project.
This is what people don’t realize. I mean, this is really—it gave power to the individual all across the world. That’s real freedom. And I think, I can’t believe it, but we still haven’t mentioned the actual obvious thing for people who are not familiar, which it’s open source, and there’s an open source community of users and developers behind it. So it’s really a movement. So, like, we’ll talk in a bunch of different ways about the community behind it. But can you speak to the open source element? So when we say what is FFmpeg, it’s an open source project.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. So FFmpeg, VLC, x264, VideoLAN, everything we do is fully open source. And for the people who don’t understand how open source is, my usual analogy is about a chocolate cheesecake, right? Usually for you, when you want to buy your cheesecake, you go to a bakery, they give you the cheesecake. The other one way of having a cheesecake is have your grandma give you a recipe of how to make that. When we do open source, we give you the chocolate cake, and we give you the recipe to actually remake the same cake, but at the same time tell you how to build the oven and also how you’re allowed to modify the recipe and resell it to someone else.
Yeah. So FFmpeg, VLC, x264, VideoLAN, everything we do is fully open source. And for the people who don’t understand how open source is, my usual analogy is about a chocolate cheesecake, right? Usually for you, when you want to buy your cheesecake, you go to a bakery, they give you the cheesecake. The other one way of having a cheesecake is have your grandma give you a recipe of how to make that. When we do open source, we give you the chocolate cake, and we give you the recipe to actually remake the same cake, but at the same time tell you how to build the oven and also how you’re allowed to modify the recipe and resell it to someone else.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And this is because software is just a very long recipe of small instructions. Computers are not very clever. They go very, very fast. So a normal program has tens of billions of instructions instead of the tens when you have your chocolate recipe. So a lot of the software industry was about selling software where you just have the final cheesecake. In open source, we give you everything, and that managed to get a lot of people to work together, right? Because then you decide that you’re going to make the best program, the best recipe for video, and you create communities. In FFmpeg, since the beginning of FFmpeg, probably two thousand to three thousand-
And this is because software is just a very long recipe of small instructions. Computers are not very clever. They go very, very fast. So a normal program has tens of billions of instructions instead of the tens when you have your chocolate recipe. So a lot of the software industry was about selling software where you just have the final cheesecake. In open source, we give you everything, and that managed to get a lot of people to work together, right? Because then you decide that you’re going to make the best program, the best recipe for video, and you create communities. In FFmpeg, since the beginning of FFmpeg, probably two thousand to three thousand-
Lex Fridman
In the thousands, yeah
In the thousands, yeah
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… people have contributed from the beginning, right? And then it’s exactly like the Linux kernel, right? The Linux kernel has probably ten thousand people contributing everywhere, and they get together, well, mostly online, right? So they virtually get together to create the best tool for something. And on FFmpeg and VLC, it’s just like, well, this codec doesn’t work, so I’m going to work on the codec, and I’m going to add the support for this file inside FFmpeg, so it will be beneficial to everyone. Because again, we work for the greater good. We work for everyone, and that is what open source is.
… people have contributed from the beginning, right? And then it’s exactly like the Linux kernel, right? The Linux kernel has probably ten thousand people contributing everywhere, and they get together, well, mostly online, right? So they virtually get together to create the best tool for something. And on FFmpeg and VLC, it’s just like, well, this codec doesn’t work, so I’m going to work on the codec, and I’m going to add the support for this file inside FFmpeg, so it will be beneficial to everyone. Because again, we work for the greater good. We work for everyone, and that is what open source is.
Lex Fridman
And we should mention, depending on the licensing you could probably build a billion-dollar, maybe even a trillion-dollar company as a wrapper to—
And we should mention, depending on the licensing you could probably build a billion-dollar, maybe even a trillion-dollar company as a wrapper to—
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Well, yes— … people do. People do, right? There were a lot of problems with mostly cloud providers who are basically running some open source tools in the cloud and just give you the API to access to that. And there was a lot of databases like Mongo or Elastic who changed their license in order to avoid those types of scenarios.
Well, yes— … people do. People do, right? There were a lot of problems with mostly cloud providers who are basically running some open source tools in the cloud and just give you the API to access to that. And there was a lot of databases like Mongo or Elastic who changed their license in order to avoid those types of scenarios.
Kieran Kunhya
This is a question we get a lot in FFmpeg is, “Why don’t you do that?” And you can’t. We have, we have thousands of contributors, some of whom aren’t even alive anymore. It would need all of their agreement to do that, and JB will go maybe a bit later and talk about how challenging that process was in VLC to do the re-licensing.
This is a question we get a lot in FFmpeg is, “Why don’t you do that?” And you can’t. We have, we have thousands of contributors, some of whom aren’t even alive anymore. It would need all of their agreement to do that, and JB will go maybe a bit later and talk about how challenging that process was in VLC to do the re-licensing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The license is a social contract in terms of Rousseau de facto of the community. The community does not agree on much besides the license. People go around, discuss around because of the license, and that also allow those license forks, right? Sometimes the community splits, but it’s possible because of the license and to merge back.
The license is a social contract in terms of Rousseau de facto of the community. The community does not agree on much besides the license. People go around, discuss around because of the license, and that also allow those license forks, right? Sometimes the community splits, but it’s possible because of the license and to merge back.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And we’ve seen that so many times, right? GCC and EGCS in the past. We have seen, for example, all the web browsers, right? They started as web, like KHTML, which becomes WebKit and then which becomes Blink, right? So open source license is like the core of the community and people are coming from all around the world, very different types of religion, political borders. They work in the same way on a project to solve a specific problem, and the specific problem we’re working on is to make multimedia easy for everyone.
And we’ve seen that so many times, right? GCC and EGCS in the past. We have seen, for example, all the web browsers, right? They started as web, like KHTML, which becomes WebKit and then which becomes Blink, right? So open source license is like the core of the community and people are coming from all around the world, very different types of religion, political borders. They work in the same way on a project to solve a specific problem, and the specific problem we’re working on is to make multimedia easy for everyone.
Lex Fridman
Looking it up on Perplexity here, looking at the different open source licenses. Most major open source licenses fall into two buckets: permissive, very few conditions, and copyleft, share-alike requirements for derivatives. Below is a brief practical summary of the main ones you’ll see in the wild. MIT license, BSD, ISC Apache GNU GPL, GNU AGPL. Where’s LGPL? Yeah, LGPL. Let’s see. There’s the Mo- the Mozilla Public License. There’s Eclipse Public License. It goes on. There’s a lot of variety. I mean, I think the really popular ones are MIT, GPL, LGPL-
Looking it up on Perplexity here, looking at the different open source licenses. Most major open source licenses fall into two buckets: permissive, very few conditions, and copyleft, share-alike requirements for derivatives. Below is a brief practical summary of the main ones you’ll see in the wild. MIT license, BSD, ISC Apache GNU GPL, GNU AGPL. Where’s LGPL? Yeah, LGPL. Let’s see. There’s the Mo- the Mozilla Public License. There’s Eclipse Public License. It goes on. There’s a lot of variety. I mean, I think the really popular ones are MIT, GPL, LGPL-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. And BSD.
Yeah. And BSD.
Lex Fridman
… and BSD, Apache. Sometimes you’ll see-
… and BSD, Apache. Sometimes you’ll see-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Apache as well
Apache as well
Lex Fridman
… Apache. Unlicense, that’s an option. Attempts to dedicate code to the public domain with a fallback permissive license.
… Apache. Unlicense, that’s an option. Attempts to dedicate code to the public domain with a fallback permissive license.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There are many licenses for many different things. What people don’t understand is that public domain is something that doesn’t exist worldwide, right? So all the open source licensing use the copyright law, right, the international copyright law, in order to give rights on how you use the software or how you modify. It’s de facto a copyright license contract that you give to the end user or to the developer. And so you have like the first ones, which are basically very permissive, MIT, BSD. You give the code and basically you do whatever you want, right? You take it, you want, you modify, you do what you want. And this is popular for JavaScript and the type of BSD operating system.
There are many licenses for many different things. What people don’t understand is that public domain is something that doesn’t exist worldwide, right? So all the open source licensing use the copyright law, right, the international copyright law, in order to give rights on how you use the software or how you modify. It’s de facto a copyright license contract that you give to the end user or to the developer. And so you have like the first ones, which are basically very permissive, MIT, BSD. You give the code and basically you do whatever you want, right? You take it, you want, you modify, you do what you want. And this is popular for JavaScript and the type of BSD operating system.
Lex Fridman
So some of them, one of the parameters is whether they require attribution, meaning if you use the code, you have to say-
So some of them, one of the parameters is whether they require attribution, meaning if you use the code, you have to say-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. So in those types of permissive licenses, some you need to say if you use it, which is called attribution, and some you don’t. And then there is the other part of license which are copyleft, where you need to give back to the community your modifications and with different strings attached. Some weak copyleft licenses, like the Mozilla Public License, to some which are a bit stronger like a GPL, or even very strong like AGPL. So all of those are different types of licensing that depends on what your goals are and how you want to structure your community, which is why I spoke about social contract, because this is very important to understand. FFmpeg and VLC are mostly GPL or LGPL. The Linux kernel is GPL but Android is Apache.
Yes. So in those types of permissive licenses, some you need to say if you use it, which is called attribution, and some you don’t. And then there is the other part of license which are copyleft, where you need to give back to the community your modifications and with different strings attached. Some weak copyleft licenses, like the Mozilla Public License, to some which are a bit stronger like a GPL, or even very strong like AGPL. So all of those are different types of licensing that depends on what your goals are and how you want to structure your community, which is why I spoke about social contract, because this is very important to understand. FFmpeg and VLC are mostly GPL or LGPL. The Linux kernel is GPL but Android is Apache.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
A ton of JavaScript frameworks that are used are mostly MIT. All the BSD kernels, OpenBSD, NetBSD are of course BSD. And so the… it’s a philosophical change on how you want people to contribute back- … basically.
A ton of JavaScript frameworks that are used are mostly MIT. All the BSD kernels, OpenBSD, NetBSD are of course BSD. And so the… it’s a philosophical change on how you want people to contribute back- … basically.
Lex Fridman
So there’s I think you talked about that you’ve moved at one point from GPL to LGPL on certain parts of the project. What… Can you describe the difference between the two, and what does it take to move to, I guess, a more permissive… So that direction is more permissive. LGPL is more permissive than GPL.
So there’s I think you talked about that you’ve moved at one point from GPL to LGPL on certain parts of the project. What… Can you describe the difference between the two, and what does it take to move to, I guess, a more permissive… So that direction is more permissive. LGPL is more permissive than GPL.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. So you have to realize that you can always go from more permissive to less permissive, right? Because of course, those licenses are basically statements, and so if you restrict, you can always restrict more, right? So in a GPL project, you can take MIT code, but you cannot do the opposite, right? Because they are more constrained to match. Indeed, in fact, I changed the core of LibVLC, which is the engine of VLC- … from GPL to LGPL. And there were two reasons to do that. The first one is that so people can use the VLC engine, LibVLC, into third-party applications. So a lot of applications which are playing video on your phone or on your tablet are actually VLC engine in it- … which is calling FFmpeg in it.
Yeah. So you have to realize that you can always go from more permissive to less permissive, right? Because of course, those licenses are basically statements, and so if you restrict, you can always restrict more, right? So in a GPL project, you can take MIT code, but you cannot do the opposite, right? Because they are more constrained to match. Indeed, in fact, I changed the core of LibVLC, which is the engine of VLC- … from GPL to LGPL. And there were two reasons to do that. The first one is that so people can use the VLC engine, LibVLC, into third-party applications. So a lot of applications which are playing video on your phone or on your tablet are actually VLC engine in it- … which is calling FFmpeg in it.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So that was one of the ways to create one of the companies I created, which is doing consulting and integration of those types of applications where you integrate VLC into third-party solutions like inside game engines or stuff like that. With GPL, you couldn’t do that because that means you needed to open source everything, and those are for a lot of, like, commercial companies who don’t want that.
So that was one of the ways to create one of the companies I created, which is doing consulting and integration of those types of applications where you integrate VLC into third-party solutions like inside game engines or stuff like that. With GPL, you couldn’t do that because that means you needed to open source everything, and those are for a lot of, like, commercial companies who don’t want that.
Lex Fridman
So you can create a company with LGPL, you can create a company around it. You can do a commercial thing. You don’t have to open source it. So that’s a big, big leap.
So you can create a company with LGPL, you can create a company around it. You can do a commercial thing. You don’t have to open source it. So that’s a big, big leap.
Kieran Kunhya
So you could play video in your game. The problem is I’m a game developer, and I want to play some videos- … and I don’t want to be forced to open source the entire game just to play those videos. So that’s where the, the consulting business, the libVLC LGPL- … allows you to do that. The LGPL, the library GPL as it used to be known, allows you to do that.
So you could play video in your game. The problem is I’m a game developer, and I want to play some videos- … and I don’t want to be forced to open source the entire game just to play those videos. So that’s where the, the consulting business, the libVLC LGPL- … allows you to do that. The LGPL, the library GPL as it used to be known, allows you to do that.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And FFmpeg is exactly the same. It force… LGPL forces you to give back what you change on this component, this- … library, which is why it’s library GPL. And so you can use FFmpeg as LGPL into, like, any type of application, even non-open source, but you need to give back the modification you did on FFmpeg. Same on libVLC.
And FFmpeg is exactly the same. It force… LGPL forces you to give back what you change on this component, this- … library, which is why it’s library GPL. And so you can use FFmpeg as LGPL into, like, any type of application, even non-open source, but you need to give back the modification you did on FFmpeg. Same on libVLC.
Lex Fridman
Is it limiting from an open source perspective to go GPL? Because if your library, if your code is GPL, it means you’re basically discouraging companies from building a business- … around it, right? Is that, is that fair to say?
Is it limiting from an open source perspective to go GPL? Because if your library, if your code is GPL, it means you’re basically discouraging companies from building a business- … around it, right? Is that, is that fair to say?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It depends on the company, but for the company whose business model requires the application to be closed source, yes, it’s limited. So that’s why, for example, I moved to LGPL. The second reason is a bit more obscure: it’s that the terms of condition of the App Store, the Apple App Store for iOS, makes it very complex to have GPL applications on it, while it’s easier to have LGPL applications on it. So VLC on Windows and on Mac and on Linux is GPL. The core is LGPL. But on iOS, the iPhone version and the Apple TV version is a type of different license called the MPL. And yes, I went and changed the license and it was a long story.
It depends on the company, but for the company whose business model requires the application to be closed source, yes, it’s limited. So that’s why, for example, I moved to LGPL. The second reason is a bit more obscure: it’s that the terms of condition of the App Store, the Apple App Store for iOS, makes it very complex to have GPL applications on it, while it’s easier to have LGPL applications on it. So VLC on Windows and on Mac and on Linux is GPL. The core is LGPL. But on iOS, the iPhone version and the Apple TV version is a type of different license called the MPL. And yes, I went and changed the license and it was a long story.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. So I think basically to change the license you have to contact all the contributors.
Yeah. So I think basically to change the license you have to contact all the contributors.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. It’s very important to understand that open source projects are what we call in the US copyright law joint work, or in civil law collective works or collaborative works. It’s that you work all together in terms of the same goal, and then you create one software, which is one release. But the copyright is kept by all the individuals. Some open source projects don’t do that. They force copyright assignment, but this is not what we do. We’re communities. So everyone has basically copyright on what they changed. And this copyright stays even if at the end your contribution was deleted because the new contribution was based on your previous one, right? So if you want to properly re-license, you need to find all the contributors.
Yes. It’s very important to understand that open source projects are what we call in the US copyright law joint work, or in civil law collective works or collaborative works. It’s that you work all together in terms of the same goal, and then you create one software, which is one release. But the copyright is kept by all the individuals. Some open source projects don’t do that. They force copyright assignment, but this is not what we do. We’re communities. So everyone has basically copyright on what they changed. And this copyright stays even if at the end your contribution was deleted because the new contribution was based on your previous one, right? So if you want to properly re-license, you need to find all the contributors.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And at that time, I had to contact more than three hundred and fifty people. And sometimes, well, they’re just an email, right? So it’s… you need to actually track down. I actually, like, travel to some place to go someone that I was like, sorry, that I’d found online to see a– to go to their job and say, “Well, you licensed that. Can you– do you want to change from GPL to LGPL?” Most of the times they don’t even care. They wanted to help VLC. But also it brought me to very complex situation. I arrived to the work of a person who was a factory worker. And I said, “Well, I need you to sign that,” because it was his son who died who actually wrote the code, right?
And at that time, I had to contact more than three hundred and fifty people. And sometimes, well, they’re just an email, right? So it’s… you need to actually track down. I actually, like, travel to some place to go someone that I was like, sorry, that I’d found online to see a– to go to their job and say, “Well, you licensed that. Can you– do you want to change from GPL to LGPL?” Most of the times they don’t even care. They wanted to help VLC. But also it brought me to very complex situation. I arrived to the work of a person who was a factory worker. And I said, “Well, I need you to sign that,” because it was his son who died who actually wrote the code, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So I had to explain all those types of open source meanings, and no, I was not a company trying to rip out the two lines or five lines that that guy did- … but was useful, and the whole community agreed on that, and he had no idea I was a factory worker. And I was a lot younger, right? Like it was fourteen years ago, and like I was almost in tears, right? It’s very difficult, right? We are talking about lives of people and he explaining, and we talked about the photo of this guy, right? So it’s important to do it right and to do it correctly. But yes, that means tracking down everything because every contribution works. There are some projects who don’t respect that, and we do re-licensing a bit, like, aggressively.
So I had to explain all those types of open source meanings, and no, I was not a company trying to rip out the two lines or five lines that that guy did- … but was useful, and the whole community agreed on that, and he had no idea I was a factory worker. And I was a lot younger, right? Like it was fourteen years ago, and like I was almost in tears, right? It’s very difficult, right? We are talking about lives of people and he explaining, and we talked about the photo of this guy, right? So it’s important to do it right and to do it correctly. But yes, that means tracking down everything because every contribution works. There are some projects who don’t respect that, and we do re-licensing a bit, like, aggressively.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But as I said, it destroyed the whole heart of the community because it’s– we only agree on the license, so that’s important.
But as I said, it destroyed the whole heart of the community because it’s– we only agree on the license, so that’s important.
Kieran Kunhya
I would emphasize the community is such a wide-ranging group of people. There’s people in the Syrian war zone with electricity part-time. There’s… there’s people from all walks of life- … rich, poor, young, old. So it’s quite remarkable to get, you know, a group of people aligned on something. And that’s an achievement in itself.
I would emphasize the community is such a wide-ranging group of people. There’s people in the Syrian war zone with electricity part-time. There’s… there’s people from all walks of life- … rich, poor, young, old. So it’s quite remarkable to get, you know, a group of people aligned on something. And that’s an achievement in itself.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. It’s incredible. And a lot of them are introverts, so you coming to find them and getting them and getting them to answer an email might be quite, quite difficult.
Yeah. It’s incredible. And a lot of them are introverts, so you coming to find them and getting them and getting them to answer an email might be quite, quite difficult.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Most of us are introverts, right? You need to be more precise. You have extremely introverts, extremely, extremely introverts and introverts, right?
Most of us are introverts, right? You need to be more precise. You have extremely introverts, extremely, extremely introverts and introverts, right?
Lex Fridman
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It’s just like a whole spectrum of different people. It doesn’t matter. The important thing is, is your code good? Is your code great? Is your technology great? We care about excellent code. We don’t care who you are. Sorry, it’s just like we have no idea to check. We cannot check, right? Like, maybe you’re a dog. I don’t care, right? I don’t care where you come from. I need to look at your code. And this is important because people don’t understand that, and they come to the community and send them some patches, and they get rejected, and they don’t like that because, I mean, you’re just like, “Sorry, it’s not up to our standards.” “Oh, yeah, but I’m an engineer at this very large company in Italy, in Germany, in the US.” We don’t care.
It’s just like a whole spectrum of different people. It doesn’t matter. The important thing is, is your code good? Is your code great? Is your technology great? We care about excellent code. We don’t care who you are. Sorry, it’s just like we have no idea to check. We cannot check, right? Like, maybe you’re a dog. I don’t care, right? I don’t care where you come from. I need to look at your code. And this is important because people don’t understand that, and they come to the community and send them some patches, and they get rejected, and they don’t like that because, I mean, you’re just like, “Sorry, it’s not up to our standards.” “Oh, yeah, but I’m an engineer at this very large company in Italy, in Germany, in the US.” We don’t care.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
We care about the quality of your code because this is what defines our community, which means that we have a lot of people who contribute who are from some very different backgrounds and, and, and very introverts, sure. But that’s okay, right?
We care about the quality of your code because this is what defines our community, which means that we have a lot of people who contribute who are from some very different backgrounds and, and, and very introverts, sure. But that’s okay, right?
Linus Torvalds
Lex Fridman
So one of the legends of the community is of course, Linus Torvalds, who created Linux and is a longtime maintainer of the Linux kernel. As the legend goes, he can be pretty harsh on this meritocratic process of reviewing the code and saying it’s not good enough. Can you just speak to the legend of Linus Torvalds?
So one of the legends of the community is of course, Linus Torvalds, who created Linux and is a longtime maintainer of the Linux kernel. As the legend goes, he can be pretty harsh on this meritocratic process of reviewing the code and saying it’s not good enough. Can you just speak to the legend of Linus Torvalds?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Linus is one of a kind, right? And, and I would even go and say that what he did on Git is more interesting than what he did on the Linux kernel.
Linus is one of a kind, right? And, and I would even go and say that what he did on Git is more interesting than what he did on the Linux kernel.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
He’s very harsh, but what people don’t see is usually when he’s harsh, it’s to people who are maintainers of part of the kernel, right? So they know him, right? So he’s not very harsh like that to everyone. The thing is, what he created in his room is basically powering every server online, right? Even at Microsoft’s cloud called Azure, I’m quite sure seventy, eighty percent of the servers are running Linux. All your Android phones are running Linux. What he did with the power of open source, sure, is amazing. And yes, the quality of the Linux kernel is very high, and yes, it’s difficult, but we cannot compromise on that. We cannot compromise on quality because in the end—and you have to understand that—the core community of VLC is five people.
He’s very harsh, but what people don’t see is usually when he’s harsh, it’s to people who are maintainers of part of the kernel, right? So they know him, right? So he’s not very harsh like that to everyone. The thing is, what he created in his room is basically powering every server online, right? Even at Microsoft’s cloud called Azure, I’m quite sure seventy, eighty percent of the servers are running Linux. All your Android phones are running Linux. What he did with the power of open source, sure, is amazing. And yes, the quality of the Linux kernel is very high, and yes, it’s difficult, but we cannot compromise on that. We cannot compromise on quality because in the end—and you have to understand that—the core community of VLC is five people.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The core community of FFmpeg is ten to fifteen, and we are the ones who are going to maintain your code, right? Because one thousand contributors in the timeline and just ten staying, it’s a one percent chance that someone comes and stays. One percent. So you will have change of job, change of wives, you have children, you have accidents in life. You’re going to change jobs, whatever. You’re not going to come back. It’s most likely. So we are the ones going to maintain your code. It needs to be maintainable. It needs to be excellent. And yes, sometimes that means that you need to rework your work because it was good, but it’s not excellent, and we need excellence because we are very few to maintain something that is critical for the whole.
The core community of FFmpeg is ten to fifteen, and we are the ones who are going to maintain your code, right? Because one thousand contributors in the timeline and just ten staying, it’s a one percent chance that someone comes and stays. One percent. So you will have change of job, change of wives, you have children, you have accidents in life. You’re going to change jobs, whatever. You’re not going to come back. It’s most likely. So we are the ones going to maintain your code. It needs to be maintainable. It needs to be excellent. And yes, sometimes that means that you need to rework your work because it was good, but it’s not excellent, and we need excellence because we are very few to maintain something that is critical for the whole.
Lex Fridman
But we should also mention that there is some spiciness, some harshness to the language that’s sometimes used when you’re keeping this high bar of excellence. Is there something to say to that?
But we should also mention that there is some spiciness, some harshness to the language that’s sometimes used when you’re keeping this high bar of excellence. Is there something to say to that?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It’s true, right? It’s also the fact that, for example, what we’re doing is low level. It’s extremely technical. You get into this community. The tone gets very like a type of— It’s a subculture, right? So people who arrive from the external are basically not known to the subculture. Most of those people around FFmpeg and VLC, we do VideoLAN DevDays, VDD every year. They are so fun in real life, and they love it. But it’s true that you’re online and sometimes, like, the tone, you don’t realize how it is. But that’s okay.
It’s true, right? It’s also the fact that, for example, what we’re doing is low level. It’s extremely technical. You get into this community. The tone gets very like a type of— It’s a subculture, right? So people who arrive from the external are basically not known to the subculture. Most of those people around FFmpeg and VLC, we do VideoLAN DevDays, VDD every year. They are so fun in real life, and they love it. But it’s true that you’re online and sometimes, like, the tone, you don’t realize how it is. But that’s okay.
Lex Fridman
It’s a culture. I mean, you get this in the gaming culture. There’s pretty harsh, intense, the way people communicate, and it’s— everyone understands that the way you show love and respect just looks different in different communities. Sometimes people… It depends. If it’s a book club, usually people are going to be much sweeter. If it’s an open source project that’s very high stakes and used by millions of people-
It’s a culture. I mean, you get this in the gaming culture. There’s pretty harsh, intense, the way people communicate, and it’s— everyone understands that the way you show love and respect just looks different in different communities. Sometimes people… It depends. If it’s a book club, usually people are going to be much sweeter. If it’s an open source project that’s very high stakes and used by millions of people-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But it’s very not often insults that you see, for example, in the gaming, right? And so Linus’ tone is a bit unusual even for the open source community. It’s more like it’s more harsh on the results, saying, “No, this is not good. This is crap.” Those type of things that you will see.
But it’s very not often insults that you see, for example, in the gaming, right? And so Linus’ tone is a bit unusual even for the open source community. It’s more like it’s more harsh on the results, saying, “No, this is not good. This is crap.” Those type of things that you will see.
Lex Fridman
Try not to make it about the person, make it about the code.
Try not to make it about the person, make it about the code.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes.
Yes.
Kieran Kunhya
It’s very, very matter of fact, and I think you’ve got to look at it in terms of, you know, the famous FFmpeg is developed almost entirely by volunteers, and that’s true, and you’ve got to imagine someone’s done a hard day’s work at their day job. They come home. You know, terseness might be a thing, you know, it… And that’s not something to take personally.
It’s very, very matter of fact, and I think you’ve got to look at it in terms of, you know, the famous FFmpeg is developed almost entirely by volunteers, and that’s true, and you’ve got to imagine someone’s done a hard day’s work at their day job. They come home. You know, terseness might be a thing, you know, it… And that’s not something to take personally.
Lex Fridman
You’re tired, you’re busy, but you still care about this open source stuff. But you may not be able to explain and handhold someone on every subtle detail.
You’re tired, you’re busy, but you still care about this open source stuff. But you may not be able to explain and handhold someone on every subtle detail.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And also you have to realize that most people don’t speak English as native language. And this is especially for open source projects like FFmpeg and VLC, which are mostly centered out of Europe. Sometimes people who are from the US or just are very not happy about the tone, but most of the time it’s also like they don’t know better, right? It’s difficult. The language is—English is a difficult language. There is so many subtleties and tone and so on that you don’t have, right? So often it’s also difficult in those type of communities about different cultures and languages.
And also you have to realize that most people don’t speak English as native language. And this is especially for open source projects like FFmpeg and VLC, which are mostly centered out of Europe. Sometimes people who are from the US or just are very not happy about the tone, but most of the time it’s also like they don’t know better, right? It’s difficult. The language is—English is a difficult language. There is so many subtleties and tone and so on that you don’t have, right? So often it’s also difficult in those type of communities about different cultures and languages.
Turning down millions to keep VLC ad-free
Lex Fridman
So as the legend goes, JB, you repeatedly turned down millions of dollars to keep VLC open source free for everyone without ads. So take me through the reasoning behind that decision of leaving millions of dollars on the table.
So as the legend goes, JB, you repeatedly turned down millions of dollars to keep VLC open source free for everyone without ads. So take me through the reasoning behind that decision of leaving millions of dollars on the table.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, that’s like almost a meme, right, on Reddit or-
Yeah, that’s like almost a meme, right, on Reddit or-
Lex Fridman
There literally is a meme on Reddit.
There literally is a meme on Reddit.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
9GAG and yeah, yeah. See, there’s-
9GAG and yeah, yeah. See, there’s-
Lex Fridman
You looking like a wizard in the, in the VLC hat on Reddit. This is JB, the creator of VLC media player. He refused tens of millions of dollars in order to keep VLC ads free. Thanks, Jean-Baptiste Kempf. You can even summon him on Reddit.
You looking like a wizard in the, in the VLC hat on Reddit. This is JB, the creator of VLC media player. He refused tens of millions of dollars in order to keep VLC ads free. Thanks, Jean-Baptiste Kempf. You can even summon him on Reddit.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. And usually if you see, right, it’s usually like people tag me, right? And then there is me, and then like I say, “Good morning.”
Yeah. And usually if you see, right, it’s usually like people tag me, right? And then there is me, and then like I say, “Good morning.”
Lex Fridman
Good morning.
Good morning.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
I got twenty-four K upvotes, which is great, right? My karma on Reddit is amazing, at least on that account. So the question is, needs to be answered first, what is the story about VLC, right? Because yes, this is true, I refuse dozens of millions of dollars, yes, several times. Yes, I could be a multimillionaire and be somewhere on the beach. But I did not do it because I thought it was not moral and it was not the right thing to do. And this is very important for myself, is to be like, I work for the greater good, I work for people, and I don’t want—it’s not just by myself. But the reason is also because I did not feel that I’m completely legitimate to do that, and let me explain you why. VLC’s story is a very weird story.
I got twenty-four K upvotes, which is great, right? My karma on Reddit is amazing, at least on that account. So the question is, needs to be answered first, what is the story about VLC, right? Because yes, this is true, I refuse dozens of millions of dollars, yes, several times. Yes, I could be a multimillionaire and be somewhere on the beach. But I did not do it because I thought it was not moral and it was not the right thing to do. And this is very important for myself, is to be like, I work for the greater good, I work for people, and I don’t want—it’s not just by myself. But the reason is also because I did not feel that I’m completely legitimate to do that, and let me explain you why. VLC’s story is a very weird story.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
In France, we have university and we have a type of top colleges, and those top of excellency schools are engineering schools, business schools, and basically lawyers and medical, right? But they’re outside of university, and in order to enter those, you spend two years working like crazy math, physics to enter those best engineering schools. One of the school is called the École Centrale Paris. It has changed name since, but it was called the École Centrale Paris. And because it was Centrale, they had to move it because it was too small after the World War II and they moved it, they wanted to move it to the central of France in a place called Clermont-Ferrand. And the alumni decided that this was not okay, right?
In France, we have university and we have a type of top colleges, and those top of excellency schools are engineering schools, business schools, and basically lawyers and medical, right? But they’re outside of university, and in order to enter those, you spend two years working like crazy math, physics to enter those best engineering schools. One of the school is called the École Centrale Paris. It has changed name since, but it was called the École Centrale Paris. And because it was Centrale, they had to move it because it was too small after the World War II and they moved it, they wanted to move it to the central of France in a place called Clermont-Ferrand. And the alumni decided that this was not okay, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It is the school that Eiffel, right, the one who did the Eiffel Tower, attended to, right? So they said, “No, no, we are amazing, great school. We cannot do that.” And so they bought a piece of land south of Paris very near Paris. And it was a campus managed by a nonprofit of the alumnis, okay? Because of that, everything on the campus was managed by students. The university did nothing, right? So radio, TV, supermarket, library, defining who was going into which rooms. Everything was managed by the students.
It is the school that Eiffel, right, the one who did the Eiffel Tower, attended to, right? So they said, “No, no, we are amazing, great school. We cannot do that.” And so they bought a piece of land south of Paris very near Paris. And it was a campus managed by a nonprofit of the alumnis, okay? Because of that, everything on the campus was managed by students. The university did nothing, right? So radio, TV, supermarket, library, defining who was going into which rooms. Everything was managed by the students.
Lex Fridman
That’s amazing. That’s an amazing experiment, that it all didn’t go to hell quickly. It somehow flourished.
That’s amazing. That’s an amazing experiment, that it all didn’t go to hell quickly. It somehow flourished.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It worked great, and I learned so much in my life doing those side activities, right? Because you’re twenty-two and you need to run your campus, else you don’t have electricity, right? So you care about that, right? But anyway, in the ’80s they did a full experiment of deploying a network mostly sponsored by IBM and 3Com, which was a token ring network. So token ring is something that probably almost no one knows about anymore. It’s a networking technology where you don’t have routers, right?
It worked great, and I learned so much in my life doing those side activities, right? Because you’re twenty-two and you need to run your campus, else you don’t have electricity, right? So you care about that, right? But anyway, in the ’80s they did a full experiment of deploying a network mostly sponsored by IBM and 3Com, which was a token ring network. So token ring is something that probably almost no one knows about anymore. It’s a networking technology where you don’t have routers, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Everyone is linked. It’s like really a ring, and when you want to send a message, you talk to your neighbor who’s going to put the message to the next one, who’s going to put the things to the next one, in terms of ring. The issue with token ring is, of course, is that it’s very slow because every computer on the network needs to open the message, see if it’s okay. Is it for me? No, it’s not, and then send it back, like a token which is traveling around the ring. In the ’80s, you’re doing some Telnet and sending mails as university. That’s okay, right? But starts the ’90s, and the ’90s and start video games, and when you have high latency in video games, basically you die, right?
Everyone is linked. It’s like really a ring, and when you want to send a message, you talk to your neighbor who’s going to put the message to the next one, who’s going to put the things to the next one, in terms of ring. The issue with token ring is, of course, is that it’s very slow because every computer on the network needs to open the message, see if it’s okay. Is it for me? No, it’s not, and then send it back, like a token which is traveling around the ring. In the ’80s, you’re doing some Telnet and sending mails as university. That’s okay, right? But starts the ’90s, and the ’90s and start video games, and when you have high latency in video games, basically you die, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So in nineteen ninety-four, nineteen ninety-five, around Doom and Duke Nukem coming around, they want a faster network. So the students go and see the university and say, “You know what? We want a faster network. We need to work,” and also play video games. And the university tells them that basically, “Oh, I’m sorry, we cannot help you because you understand the campus is not ours. You manage it, so do something. And you should see some basically partners of this university and basically go away.” And they go, and they actually go and see the CIO of Bouygues, which is a large French company and who’s doing some TVs in France. And he says, “Well, you know what?
So in nineteen ninety-four, nineteen ninety-five, around Doom and Duke Nukem coming around, they want a faster network. So the students go and see the university and say, “You know what? We want a faster network. We need to work,” and also play video games. And the university tells them that basically, “Oh, I’m sorry, we cannot help you because you understand the campus is not ours. You manage it, so do something. And you should see some basically partners of this university and basically go away.” And they go, and they actually go and see the CIO of Bouygues, which is a large French company and who’s doing some TVs in France. And he says, “Well, you know what?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The future of video is satellite.” Well, today we know it’s not, but at least it was a good idea. In nineteen ninety-five, the first satellite dish, and he says that instead of having like one satellite dish and a big decoder for each of the students, which are one thousand and five hundred, what about you build, like you put an enormous dish and only one decoder, and you send the video directly on the network. And that required a very fast network. Today, it’s obvious, but at the time was, like, the first to do video streaming. So they built this project, which was called Network 2000. Of course, right, we are in the ’90s, right? Everything futuristic is called 2000, like-
The future of video is satellite.” Well, today we know it’s not, but at least it was a good idea. In nineteen ninety-five, the first satellite dish, and he says that instead of having like one satellite dish and a big decoder for each of the students, which are one thousand and five hundred, what about you build, like you put an enormous dish and only one decoder, and you send the video directly on the network. And that required a very fast network. Today, it’s obvious, but at the time was, like, the first to do video streaming. So they built this project, which was called Network 2000. Of course, right, we are in the ’90s, right? Everything futuristic is called 2000, like-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, 2000, yeah.
Yeah, 2000, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so they do the Network 2000 project. It’s completely hacked. It crashes after 45 seconds. That’s okay. The demo is 40 seconds. It leaks memory. That’s okay. They put 64 megabytes of RAM instead of the 8 or 16 you have, and the demo should have stopped there. And that was the Network 2000 project by the students.
And so they do the Network 2000 project. It’s completely hacked. It crashes after 45 seconds. That’s okay. The demo is 40 seconds. It leaks memory. That’s okay. They put 64 megabytes of RAM instead of the 8 or 16 you have, and the demo should have stopped there. And that was the Network 2000 project by the students.
Lex Fridman
What was the format of the video that they had to work with?
What was the format of the video that they had to work with?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
MPEG-2 because satellite is MPEG-2 TS for transport, MPEG-2 video, and MPEG-2 audio at that time. And the project should have stopped there. Everyone was happy. They had, like, amazing ATM network at 155 megabits per second. They had probably one of the best networks in Europe at that time, and they stopped the project. Six months or a year later, two students arrive and say, “Well, you know what? Maybe other people care about video streamed on a local network,” and they create the VideoLAN project, VideoLAN. And one of them is called Christophe Massot, that is a good friend of both Kieran and me, and they start the project. It’s not even open source yet, and they spend around three years to get the school to agree to make it open source.
MPEG-2 because satellite is MPEG-2 TS for transport, MPEG-2 video, and MPEG-2 audio at that time. And the project should have stopped there. Everyone was happy. They had, like, amazing ATM network at 155 megabits per second. They had probably one of the best networks in Europe at that time, and they stopped the project. Six months or a year later, two students arrive and say, “Well, you know what? Maybe other people care about video streamed on a local network,” and they create the VideoLAN project, VideoLAN. And one of them is called Christophe Massot, that is a good friend of both Kieran and me, and they start the project. It’s not even open source yet, and they spend around three years to get the school to agree to make it open source.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Because the university wanted to get some– because of the IP and copyright of the students, wanted to basically monetize these MPEG-2 decoders.
Because the university wanted to get some– because of the IP and copyright of the students, wanted to basically monetize these MPEG-2 decoders.
Lex Fridman
Just to be clear, so what was the main application, streaming on a local network?
Just to be clear, so what was the main application, streaming on a local network?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It was streaming on a local network.
It was streaming on a local network.
Lex Fridman
By the way, that’s just, like, to state the obvious. This is before YouTube. This is before-
By the way, that’s just, like, to state the obvious. This is before YouTube. This is before-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Ten years before YouTube. You have a Pentium 60 or 75, right? You, the main machine was 486DX at 33 megahertz, right?
Ten years before YouTube. You have a Pentium 60 or 75, right? You, the main machine was 486DX at 33 megahertz, right?
Kieran Kunhya
Bear in mind, television was the main form of video at the time. You could get new channels. In the ’90s, having even one new channel when you grew up with four channels, having a fifth or a sixth was a big deal, and so having this satellite service with, you know, dozens, even hundreds of channels was so groundbreaking.
Bear in mind, television was the main form of video at the time. You could get new channels. In the ’90s, having even one new channel when you grew up with four channels, having a fifth or a sixth was a big deal, and so having this satellite service with, you know, dozens, even hundreds of channels was so groundbreaking.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Especially because this is university where you had a ton of different nationalities, right? So there was a ton of people who wanted… So in the end, they had, like, several dishes on different types of satellites, right? Because, for example, a lot of people were coming from the Maghreb or the Middle East and they went to different types of satellites. Anyway, the solution worked great, and they started the VideoLAN project. The VideoLAN project has several, and some are completely crazy solutions, like one how to create multicast on a unicast network, but let’s not come to that. It’s too complex. But the VideoLAN Client part is what became VLC.
Especially because this is university where you had a ton of different nationalities, right? So there was a ton of people who wanted… So in the end, they had, like, several dishes on different types of satellites, right? Because, for example, a lot of people were coming from the Maghreb or the Middle East and they went to different types of satellites. Anyway, the solution worked great, and they started the VideoLAN project. The VideoLAN project has several, and some are completely crazy solutions, like one how to create multicast on a unicast network, but let’s not come to that. It’s too complex. But the VideoLAN Client part is what became VLC.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Actually, they basically strong-armed the university to force it to open source, because the university did not understand that. And in 2001, it’s still early. But basically, yes, the university agreed early 2001 to make it open source. I joined the project in 2003 because that’s when I joined the university. So the first thing is I’m not the one who created VLC, because actually no one did, right?
Actually, they basically strong-armed the university to force it to open source, because the university did not understand that. And in 2001, it’s still early. But basically, yes, the university agreed early 2001 to make it open source. I joined the project in 2003 because that’s when I joined the university. So the first thing is I’m not the one who created VLC, because actually no one did, right?
Lex Fridman
Just kind of naturally emerged from the VideoLAN project. And we should mention that, like, again, you said it just, but to make it clear, VideoLAN as what it became at the time was a set of technologies around video, and the VLC, what you called the client, that’s the thing that most normies, uh-
Just kind of naturally emerged from the VideoLAN project. And we should mention that, like, again, you said it just, but to make it clear, VideoLAN as what it became at the time was a set of technologies around video, and the VLC, what you called the client, that’s the thing that most normies, uh-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
That is correct, and-
That is correct, and-
Lex Fridman
… think of, like, as the thing, which is, like, the thing that pops up when you click on a video and you play it.
… think of, like, as the thing, which is, like, the thing that pops up when you click on a video and you play it.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So I arrive in 2003, and then I will create the open source nonprofit organization called VideoLAN, and I took everything out of the university to create it as a nonprofit project and something sustainable. It’s, yes, it’s true that I spent more time than anyone on VLC and VideoLAN. That is sure. But it’s a continuity of a previous project, VideoLAN, the student project, which is a continuity of the Network 2000 project, which is a continuity of that and that.
So I arrive in 2003, and then I will create the open source nonprofit organization called VideoLAN, and I took everything out of the university to create it as a nonprofit project and something sustainable. It’s, yes, it’s true that I spent more time than anyone on VLC and VideoLAN. That is sure. But it’s a continuity of a previous project, VideoLAN, the student project, which is a continuity of the Network 2000 project, which is a continuity of that and that.
Lex Fridman
I’m sure there’s moments along the way there you were thinking of, like, what is the future of this from an open source perspective? ‘Cause as, as the internet is blowing up, and there is companies… I mean, for people who don’t remember, like, there’s companies making huge amounts of money.
I’m sure there’s moments along the way there you were thinking of, like, what is the future of this from an open source perspective? ‘Cause as, as the internet is blowing up, and there is companies… I mean, for people who don’t remember, like, there’s companies making huge amounts of money.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And I can tell you that in 2005, the project should have died and I made it to continue the project. At some point, we were only two active developers. And I thought it was great technology and was useful, and it will be useful, and I made that my life and my time. And I made that grow from a few hundreds of thousands of users, millions of users to what we have now, which is probably billions of versions of VLC around the world and used everywhere. So that’s a bit the story of VLC. There is a ton of very funny stories around that. Many people from around the world working on it, like you said, in Syria or the middle of nowhere in India. But along the way, I got several offers which were either to bundle toolbars, right? You remember those horrible toolbars-
And I can tell you that in 2005, the project should have died and I made it to continue the project. At some point, we were only two active developers. And I thought it was great technology and was useful, and it will be useful, and I made that my life and my time. And I made that grow from a few hundreds of thousands of users, millions of users to what we have now, which is probably billions of versions of VLC around the world and used everywhere. So that’s a bit the story of VLC. There is a ton of very funny stories around that. Many people from around the world working on it, like you said, in Syria or the middle of nowhere in India. But along the way, I got several offers which were either to bundle toolbars, right? You remember those horrible toolbars-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… which were basically spyware, or changing your web browser or your search engine or even, like, advertisement inside VLC. And I didn’t like that, right? I am– and people don’t understand that. It’s not– I’m not against money, right? I’m very happy to make money. I created several startups and one I hope that is going to work very well. It’s the fact that I believe that you need to win money ethically. There is a right way of doing that, and doing sneaky advertisement or stealing data is not the correct way, right? For example, if Netflix arrived at some point and said, “Well, we want to put Netflix inside VLC,” probably the story would have been different, right? But they didn’t. The only people who came to us were shady ads companies.
… which were basically spyware, or changing your web browser or your search engine or even, like, advertisement inside VLC. And I didn’t like that, right? I am– and people don’t understand that. It’s not– I’m not against money, right? I’m very happy to make money. I created several startups and one I hope that is going to work very well. It’s the fact that I believe that you need to win money ethically. There is a right way of doing that, and doing sneaky advertisement or stealing data is not the correct way, right? For example, if Netflix arrived at some point and said, “Well, we want to put Netflix inside VLC,” probably the story would have been different, right? But they didn’t. The only people who came to us were shady ads companies.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And if I do that, right, I would have a ton of money, right? And then three years later, the project is gone, right? Someone forks it and something else happens.
And if I do that, right, I would have a ton of money, right? And then three years later, the project is gone, right? Someone forks it and something else happens.
Lex Fridman
So it’s not even necessarily ads or any of that, it’s the shadiness of the- … dishonesty of the– So you had a good radar, you had a good threshold of like, “No, this compromises the spirit of what this is supposed to represent.”
So it’s not even necessarily ads or any of that, it’s the shadiness of the- … dishonesty of the– So you had a good radar, you had a good threshold of like, “No, this compromises the spirit of what this is supposed to represent.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But also it’s for me, right? I’m like very selfishly, I need to go to bed at night and be happy about what I’ve done, right? Maybe it’s my upbringing, maybe it’s my parents’ fault or whatever, right? But I believe there is right and wrong, right? And this was the right decision at the time. It still is. I want to be proud of what I’ve been doing. And like, if I had sold out, I would have betrayed so many other people who work here.
But also it’s for me, right? I’m like very selfishly, I need to go to bed at night and be happy about what I’ve done, right? Maybe it’s my upbringing, maybe it’s my parents’ fault or whatever, right? But I believe there is right and wrong, right? And this was the right decision at the time. It still is. I want to be proud of what I’ve been doing. And like, if I had sold out, I would have betrayed so many other people who work here.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, well, I should say me and most of the internet thank you for that decision. It’s inspiring for others I think that are pushing the open source movement forward, that it’s okay to do these kinds of huge sacrifices if you believe it’s right. And I think in that case it was right and it was the reason that VLC became as successful as it was, ’cause it’s an embodiment, it’s a symbol of like, you know, freedom and what the open source community can create.
Yeah, well, I should say me and most of the internet thank you for that decision. It’s inspiring for others I think that are pushing the open source movement forward, that it’s okay to do these kinds of huge sacrifices if you believe it’s right. And I think in that case it was right and it was the reason that VLC became as successful as it was, ’cause it’s an embodiment, it’s a symbol of like, you know, freedom and what the open source community can create.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, and be a service for so many people around the world, and this is important.
Yeah, and be a service for so many people around the world, and this is important.
Kieran Kunhya
We should emphasize in the 2000s it was really normal to download a program and it secretly installs some spyware. It was, it was buried in very faint text or in the license text box that nobody reads at the bottom- … “Oh, I will be installing this toolbar- … and changing all these things,” and it was very common to have to, you know, you install a program to do something at the time of any sort.
We should emphasize in the 2000s it was really normal to download a program and it secretly installs some spyware. It was, it was buried in very faint text or in the license text box that nobody reads at the bottom- … “Oh, I will be installing this toolbar- … and changing all these things,” and it was very common to have to, you know, you install a program to do something at the time of any sort.
Lex Fridman
To put yourself in the mind of a developer at that time, I think it’s very easy—to everybody listening to this, it’s very easy at that time to convince yourself to take a few thousand dollars- … a few thousand dollars to do it. To say no to much more money- … takes guts and takes vision.
To put yourself in the mind of a developer at that time, I think it’s very easy—to everybody listening to this, it’s very easy at that time to convince yourself to take a few thousand dollars- … a few thousand dollars to do it. To say no to much more money- … takes guts and takes vision.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The last offer I had was obscene, and they say, “Yeah, but imagine with all that money you could build something new, open source,” right? It was like the mind trick was… it was difficult. But for me it was just like, “No, this doesn’t work like that or this is not the right thing, so I don’t do it.” And again, right, it’s not that I don’t like money or whatever. It’s just like it wasn’t right.
The last offer I had was obscene, and they say, “Yeah, but imagine with all that money you could build something new, open source,” right? It was like the mind trick was… it was difficult. But for me it was just like, “No, this doesn’t work like that or this is not the right thing, so I don’t do it.” And again, right, it’s not that I don’t like money or whatever. It’s just like it wasn’t right.
FFmpeg & Google drama
Lex Fridman
Well, once again, thank you from me and from the rest of the internet. Let me talk a little bit more about the open source movement, about the fact that, as you say over and over and over and over, FFmpeg is and many open source projects are built by volunteers. So there’s a bit of drama recently, Kieran, on the interwebs, on Twitter. You have a spicy style on Twitter that I think articulates and celebrates all the incredible developers and development and the code, especially assembly, that’s involved in building some of these codecs and building some of this incredible technology. But that brings us to the… a bit of a debacle that happened. Tell me the full saga of what happened with the Google security engineers.
Well, once again, thank you from me and from the rest of the internet. Let me talk a little bit more about the open source movement, about the fact that, as you say over and over and over and over, FFmpeg is and many open source projects are built by volunteers. So there’s a bit of drama recently, Kieran, on the interwebs, on Twitter. You have a spicy style on Twitter that I think articulates and celebrates all the incredible developers and development and the code, especially assembly, that’s involved in building some of these codecs and building some of this incredible technology. But that brings us to the… a bit of a debacle that happened. Tell me the full saga of what happened with the Google security engineers.
Kieran Kunhya
Just to be clear, Google are one of the biggest supporters of open source out there. They have been for a long time. It’s just I think some things kind of went a bit overboard this time. So FFmpeg itself—and this is not like a secret, it’s on the homepage, you know—it processes untrusted data. There can be security issues when you parse untrusted data. That’s very normal. But recently what changed was Google started using AI to create security reports on an open source project, FFmpeg. Volunteers had to deal with that. They did, they provided very limited funding, and they even went to the media first announcing how good their AI was before the issues could be fixed.
Just to be clear, Google are one of the biggest supporters of open source out there. They have been for a long time. It’s just I think some things kind of went a bit overboard this time. So FFmpeg itself—and this is not like a secret, it’s on the homepage, you know—it processes untrusted data. There can be security issues when you parse untrusted data. That’s very normal. But recently what changed was Google started using AI to create security reports on an open source project, FFmpeg. Volunteers had to deal with that. They did, they provided very limited funding, and they even went to the media first announcing how good their AI was before the issues could be fixed.
Lex Fridman
And this is in the public forum.
And this is in the public forum.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, this is all public.
Yeah, this is all public.
Lex Fridman
So reporting an issue, using AI to find an issue in the code which is a security vulnerability, and then reporting that publicly before you’re able to fix it.
So reporting an issue, using AI to find an issue in the code which is a security vulnerability, and then reporting that publicly before you’re able to fix it.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. It’s announcing how good their AI is, that they provided a standard 90-day industry deadline without really understanding the nature of volunteer-driven development. In addition, this vulnerability was on an obscure 1990s game codec. The way—and let’s look at it from their standpoint to begin with. Let, let’s you know-
Yeah. It’s announcing how good their AI is, that they provided a standard 90-day industry deadline without really understanding the nature of volunteer-driven development. In addition, this vulnerability was on an obscure 1990s game codec. The way—and let’s look at it from their standpoint to begin with. Let, let’s you know-
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Can you steer me in their case?
Yeah. Can you steer me in their case?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, sure. They have substantial resources working on the security of open source projects that, you know, are ubiquitous, and they’ve used a lot of compute to do that and very expensive and very capable security researchers to do that. And that’s their viewpoint is they are contributing by doing that. But I think that’s where opinions differ. It opened up a lot of interesting fissures, I would say. It does seem that there’s a portion of the security community that look at themselves a bit like building architects that never have to go to site. You know, going to site is something that is a little bit beneath them, the actual day-to-day construction. They’re there to do their security things and it’s someone else’s problem.
Yeah, sure. They have substantial resources working on the security of open source projects that, you know, are ubiquitous, and they’ve used a lot of compute to do that and very expensive and very capable security researchers to do that. And that’s their viewpoint is they are contributing by doing that. But I think that’s where opinions differ. It opened up a lot of interesting fissures, I would say. It does seem that there’s a portion of the security community that look at themselves a bit like building architects that never have to go to site. You know, going to site is something that is a little bit beneath them, the actual day-to-day construction. They’re there to do their security things and it’s someone else’s problem.
Kieran Kunhya
The security industry also kind of has a very aggressive tone towards things. The language they use is extremely aggressive. They use very strong language like, “You will get popped.” So and to Joe Public, “get popped,” you know, means something quite bad. For them it means to get hacked. The way I would look at it personally is a little bit like the padlock on your home. Not everyone… The padlock on your home or, you know, the lock on your home is there to protect against the capabilities of what it’s there to protect. It’s not there to protect nuclear secrets. It’s not there to protect Fort Knox. And it could be looked at that they’re using AI at a level of scale to go and pick those locks and then say, “Hey, your lock’s not secure.”
The security industry also kind of has a very aggressive tone towards things. The language they use is extremely aggressive. They use very strong language like, “You will get popped.” So and to Joe Public, “get popped,” you know, means something quite bad. For them it means to get hacked. The way I would look at it personally is a little bit like the padlock on your home. Not everyone… The padlock on your home or, you know, the lock on your home is there to protect against the capabilities of what it’s there to protect. It’s not there to protect nuclear secrets. It’s not there to protect Fort Knox. And it could be looked at that they’re using AI at a level of scale to go and pick those locks and then say, “Hey, your lock’s not secure.”
Kieran Kunhya
You need to deal with this.” Whereas actually they’re the ones with resources to be able to fix this. But that seems to not be something either they’ll contribute to in terms of patches or in terms of financially. And the scale of AI is kind of the issue. The bug reports are very wordy. They’re very, very—it’s almost a denial of service by AI-generated bug reports on very niche codecs. And the other issue the security community has is everything is marked high priority. You’re going to, you know, “This is the most important thing in the world, and you need to deal with this. High, high, high, vulnerable, scary, scary, scary,” on a game codec used on one disk in 1993.
You need to deal with this.” Whereas actually they’re the ones with resources to be able to fix this. But that seems to not be something either they’ll contribute to in terms of patches or in terms of financially. And the scale of AI is kind of the issue. The bug reports are very wordy. They’re very, very—it’s almost a denial of service by AI-generated bug reports on very niche codecs. And the other issue the security community has is everything is marked high priority. You’re going to, you know, “This is the most important thing in the world, and you need to deal with this. High, high, high, vulnerable, scary, scary, scary,” on a game codec used on one disk in 1993.
Kieran Kunhya
And that’s where the dichotomy lies. Going around telling everyone that their padlock’s not safe—well, that’s a hobby project of somebody. The safety of that codec is consummate to what that person thinks. It’s their hobby. It’s good that they’re security analyzing it, but it doesn’t need a big scary warning, “This is a critical vulnerability.” You may also recently see that there was another quote-unquote vulnerability. It wasn’t Google in this case, but a filter could overflow and have an integer overflow, and one of your pixels could be the wrong color. And this was marked high, 7.5 severity in red.
And that’s where the dichotomy lies. Going around telling everyone that their padlock’s not safe—well, that’s a hobby project of somebody. The safety of that codec is consummate to what that person thinks. It’s their hobby. It’s good that they’re security analyzing it, but it doesn’t need a big scary warning, “This is a critical vulnerability.” You may also recently see that there was another quote-unquote vulnerability. It wasn’t Google in this case, but a filter could overflow and have an integer overflow, and one of your pixels could be the wrong color. And this was marked high, 7.5 severity in red.
Kieran Kunhya
And at some point, the security industry needs to realize you can’t keep crying wolf like this because this just leads to people, you know, the equivalent thereof of putting password stickers on their PC. You know, you can’t just keep crying wolf every day. And I appreciate, you know, that’s their modus operandi is to create as much scare and fear. But from the Google standpoint, at the end of the day, they need to contribute either financially or with patches. Google uses FFmpeg at a scale probably you or I couldn’t even contemplate, millions of CPU cores. And yes, they contribute in areas mostly regarding their own products, so VP9, AV1. But in a wider sense, there’s a disproportionate level of contribution. Yes, they fund students. Yes, they fund Summer of Code.
And at some point, the security industry needs to realize you can’t keep crying wolf like this because this just leads to people, you know, the equivalent thereof of putting password stickers on their PC. You know, you can’t just keep crying wolf every day. And I appreciate, you know, that’s their modus operandi is to create as much scare and fear. But from the Google standpoint, at the end of the day, they need to contribute either financially or with patches. Google uses FFmpeg at a scale probably you or I couldn’t even contemplate, millions of CPU cores. And yes, they contribute in areas mostly regarding their own products, so VP9, AV1. But in a wider sense, there’s a disproportionate level of contribution. Yes, they fund students. Yes, they fund Summer of Code.
Kieran Kunhya
And I think… so Alex Strange is a former FFmpeg developer, I think posting in a personal capacity.
And I think… so Alex Strange is a former FFmpeg developer, I think posting in a personal capacity.
Lex Fridman
So he posted about security engineers on Hacker News. His post reads, “The problem with security reports in general is security people are rampant self-promoters”—in parentheses, Linus once called them something worse. “Imagine you’re a humble volunteer open source developer. If a security researcher finds a bug in your code, they’re going to make up a cute name for it, start a website with a logo. Google is going to give them a million-dollar bounty. They’re going to go to DEF CON and get a prize, and I assume go to some kind of secret security people orgy where everyone is dressed like they’re in The Matrix. Nobody is going to do any of this for you when you fix it.” Uh, basically commenting on the sort of the incentives for the different people involved and misaligned.
So he posted about security engineers on Hacker News. His post reads, “The problem with security reports in general is security people are rampant self-promoters”—in parentheses, Linus once called them something worse. “Imagine you’re a humble volunteer open source developer. If a security researcher finds a bug in your code, they’re going to make up a cute name for it, start a website with a logo. Google is going to give them a million-dollar bounty. They’re going to go to DEF CON and get a prize, and I assume go to some kind of secret security people orgy where everyone is dressed like they’re in The Matrix. Nobody is going to do any of this for you when you fix it.” Uh, basically commenting on the sort of the incentives for the different people involved and misaligned.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The problem here is the disproportion of means on discovery compared to patching it, right? And this is the biggest issue, right? And after that debacle, Google did some changes.
The problem here is the disproportion of means on discovery compared to patching it, right? And this is the biggest issue, right? And after that debacle, Google did some changes.
Kieran Kunhya
They are now starting to send patches, which is-
They are now starting to send patches, which is-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And they also now have reward tools for fixing issues. So it, it has changed a bit because of that debacle. So it’s good, right? But we’ve seen—and we talk about Google—but we have seen like some other large companies saying, “Oh, you need to fix this bug because it’s critical in our product.”
And they also now have reward tools for fixing issues. So it, it has changed a bit because of that debacle. So it’s good, right? But we’ve seen—and we talk about Google—but we have seen like some other large companies saying, “Oh, you need to fix this bug because it’s critical in our product.”
Lex Fridman
Can you explain the XZ fiasco? The FFmpeg tweet reads, “The XZ fiasco has shown how a dependence on unpaid volunteers can cause major problems. Trillion-dollar corporations expect free and urgent support from volunteers. Microsoft Teams posted on a bug tracker full of volunteers that their issue is high priority. After politely requesting a support contract from Microsoft for long-term maintenance, they offered a one-time payment of a few thousand dollars instead. This is unacceptable. We didn’t make it up. This is what Microsoft Teams actually did.” And then you give the image and the details and all that kind of stuff, showing that these trillion-dollar companies are not giving much money, not giving much support.
Can you explain the XZ fiasco? The FFmpeg tweet reads, “The XZ fiasco has shown how a dependence on unpaid volunteers can cause major problems. Trillion-dollar corporations expect free and urgent support from volunteers. Microsoft Teams posted on a bug tracker full of volunteers that their issue is high priority. After politely requesting a support contract from Microsoft for long-term maintenance, they offered a one-time payment of a few thousand dollars instead. This is unacceptable. We didn’t make it up. This is what Microsoft Teams actually did.” And then you give the image and the details and all that kind of stuff, showing that these trillion-dollar companies are not giving much money, not giving much support.
Kieran Kunhya
They think an open source project is a traditional vendor that they have an SLA. They think a public bug tracker is actually, you know, a third-party vendor’s Jira where you can do all of these things. It’s not. It is there to report bugs. I think the thing that made this particularly heinous was the name-dropping of Microsoft, the name-dropping that this is a visible product. If this was just a general bug report, I think that would have made it a lot better.
They think an open source project is a traditional vendor that they have an SLA. They think a public bug tracker is actually, you know, a third-party vendor’s Jira where you can do all of these things. It’s not. It is there to report bugs. I think the thing that made this particularly heinous was the name-dropping of Microsoft, the name-dropping that this is a visible product. If this was just a general bug report, I think that would have made it a lot better.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, so they literally said, like, “This is a big deal because a lot of people are using it in Microsoft.” I wonder what happens psychologically. So I think what happens in these companies, maybe you can correct me, is they… You’re right. They just think of FFmpeg as like a vendor that Microsoft surely is paying a huge amount of money to. They kind of assume that in their interaction, and nobody anywhere on the stack is going like, “Wait a minute. Shouldn’t we be giving like millions of dollars to FFmpeg?”
Yeah, so they literally said, like, “This is a big deal because a lot of people are using it in Microsoft.” I wonder what happens psychologically. So I think what happens in these companies, maybe you can correct me, is they… You’re right. They just think of FFmpeg as like a vendor that Microsoft surely is paying a huge amount of money to. They kind of assume that in their interaction, and nobody anywhere on the stack is going like, “Wait a minute. Shouldn’t we be giving like millions of dollars to FFmpeg?”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And this is a very big problem in large—like we’re talking about some companies, but it’s the same everywhere, right? A lot of those companies. Like the… when we talk to that person, right, he was just like a manager on one project in Microsoft Teams, right? He had, like, never really discussed with the open source community. He had no idea, right? It was like… but the problem is that usually there is what we call OSPOs, right? Open Source Program Offices in those type of companies, and they are the ones who are supposed to discuss with open source vendors.
And this is a very big problem in large—like we’re talking about some companies, but it’s the same everywhere, right? A lot of those companies. Like the… when we talk to that person, right, he was just like a manager on one project in Microsoft Teams, right? He had, like, never really discussed with the open source community. He had no idea, right? It was like… but the problem is that usually there is what we call OSPOs, right? Open Source Program Offices in those type of companies, and they are the ones who are supposed to discuss with open source vendors.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Or open source communities. But like they often don’t explain that correctly internally, right? And here it’s just like we are not your supplier. If you want me to be your supplier, I’m very happy, right? I will send you a contract and SLAs. Like I created five companies who are doing that around open source projects, so that’s okay.
Or open source communities. But like they often don’t explain that correctly internally, right? And here it’s just like we are not your supplier. If you want me to be your supplier, I’m very happy, right? I will send you a contract and SLAs. Like I created five companies who are doing that around open source projects, so that’s okay.
Lex Fridman
We should say that some, some of the spicy tweets that Kieran, you’re behind, and some of the debacle produced results.
We should say that some, some of the spicy tweets that Kieran, you’re behind, and some of the debacle produced results.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes.
Yes.
Lex Fridman
Positive results.
Positive results.
Kieran Kunhya
Donations have increased substantially. They’re still not enough to cover even a single full-time developer, but on both a, you know, awareness level and a technical level, there’s substantially more technical awareness and sort of awareness of the importance of FFmpeg as a result of X and what’s happened. I can say, you know, it solved its purpose. People realize the level of importance FFmpeg has.
Donations have increased substantially. They’re still not enough to cover even a single full-time developer, but on both a, you know, awareness level and a technical level, there’s substantially more technical awareness and sort of awareness of the importance of FFmpeg as a result of X and what’s happened. I can say, you know, it solved its purpose. People realize the level of importance FFmpeg has.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And on VideoLAN it’s the same, right? Like for example, a, a very simple example. For more than a year, we couldn’t update VLC on Android because of a bug on the Play Store, on Android Play Store, right? The only way we got someone to answer was to put a very spicy, as you say, tweet saying that we are going to stop distributing VLC for Android, right? And we have around 100 million people using that. And now then someone from Android actually came and discussed to us, right? We had the same issue with, with Microsoft or, or like saying that we were going to stop distributing VLC on the Windows Store.
And on VideoLAN it’s the same, right? Like for example, a, a very simple example. For more than a year, we couldn’t update VLC on Android because of a bug on the Play Store, on Android Play Store, right? The only way we got someone to answer was to put a very spicy, as you say, tweet saying that we are going to stop distributing VLC for Android, right? And we have around 100 million people using that. And now then someone from Android actually came and discussed to us, right? We had the same issue with, with Microsoft or, or like saying that we were going to stop distributing VLC on the Windows Store.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And unfortunately, we are so small that the only very strong power we have to solve those issues is blaming on social networks because it snowballs and now they listen to us. But so as large companies often have difficulty talking to us. Like for example, VLC, right, is probably one of the top 10 software used on Windows. I am not part of Microsoft ISV programs, right? I don’t have a point of contact at Microsoft, right? While I’m sure any other software, Adobe, Spotify, has a point of contact. I don’t have that, right? So raising awareness works. It’s sometimes very spicy, lot of drama. Well, X and Twitter are okay for that, but it’s efficient.
And unfortunately, we are so small that the only very strong power we have to solve those issues is blaming on social networks because it snowballs and now they listen to us. But so as large companies often have difficulty talking to us. Like for example, VLC, right, is probably one of the top 10 software used on Windows. I am not part of Microsoft ISV programs, right? I don’t have a point of contact at Microsoft, right? While I’m sure any other software, Adobe, Spotify, has a point of contact. I don’t have that, right? So raising awareness works. It’s sometimes very spicy, lot of drama. Well, X and Twitter are okay for that, but it’s efficient.
Lex Fridman
So everybody listening to this should go follow FFmpeg on Twitter, on X, follow VideoLAN on Twitter, on X. Go donate. Donate-
So everybody listening to this should go follow FFmpeg on Twitter, on X, follow VideoLAN on Twitter, on X. Go donate. Donate-
Kieran Kunhya
Thank you
Thank you
Lex Fridman
… to FFmpeg.
… to FFmpeg.
Kieran Kunhya
And thank you, Lex. Over the years, several years you’ve been a supporter of, you know, FFmpeg and VideoLAN on X. You know, giving us shout-outs, appreciating, you know, what we do.
And thank you, Lex. Over the years, several years you’ve been a supporter of, you know, FFmpeg and VideoLAN on X. You know, giving us shout-outs, appreciating, you know, what we do.
Lex Fridman
FFmpeg for life.
FFmpeg for life.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And for example, like Tim Sweeney, Carmack, and a few others, like very high-level people have raised also the awareness on, on our X accounts, and that helped a lot also.
And for example, like Tim Sweeney, Carmack, and a few others, like very high-level people have raised also the awareness on, on our X accounts, and that helped a lot also.
Kieran Kunhya
Karpathy as well.
Karpathy as well.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Karpathy, yes.
Karpathy, yes.
Kieran Kunhya
Karpathy as well, yeah.
Karpathy as well, yeah.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I mean, also, you know, outside of the fact that so many people use it, it’s so impactful on the world, it’s also a great representation of a great open source project. Like the value of assembly and C and making sure that like you take programming seriously for real world systems.
Yeah. I mean, also, you know, outside of the fact that so many people use it, it’s so impactful on the world, it’s also a great representation of a great open source project. Like the value of assembly and C and making sure that like you take programming seriously for real world systems.
Kieran Kunhya
It’s not just that. We’ll talk about assembly later I’m sure, ’cause that’s its whole topic in itself, but it’s also celebrating people like Andreas Rheinhardt who do maintenance. It is, I believe unpaid, as a volunteer. He’s doing massive refactorings. Andreas Rheinhardt and Anton Khirnov rewriting ffmpeg.c with threading. Celebrating those guys, celebrating the untold labor that’s gone into this that actually doesn’t change anything from the user standpoint. The files are exactly the same, but wow, the airplane has been rebuilt whilst it’s in the air.
It’s not just that. We’ll talk about assembly later I’m sure, ’cause that’s its whole topic in itself, but it’s also celebrating people like Andreas Rheinhardt who do maintenance. It is, I believe unpaid, as a volunteer. He’s doing massive refactorings. Andreas Rheinhardt and Anton Khirnov rewriting ffmpeg.c with threading. Celebrating those guys, celebrating the untold labor that’s gone into this that actually doesn’t change anything from the user standpoint. The files are exactly the same, but wow, the airplane has been rebuilt whilst it’s in the air.
Lex Fridman
Christian Garcia said, “As a teenager running this account,” referring to the FFmpeg a- … account, and you responded, “Teenagers have written more assembly in FFmpeg than Google engineers.” But also just pointing out that there’s a lot of incredible contributors who are teenagers.
Christian Garcia said, “As a teenager running this account,” referring to the FFmpeg a- … account, and you responded, “Teenagers have written more assembly in FFmpeg than Google engineers.” But also just pointing out that there’s a lot of incredible contributors who are teenagers.
Kieran Kunhya
Like JB said, we don’t care who you are, where you’re from, what you do. Teenagers have written thousands of lines of assembly over the years. Give a shout-out back in the days to Daniel Kang. So also highlighting the work of people like Ruikai Peng. This is a 16-year-old, some of his first contributions to FFmpeg, actually doing and putting some of these quote-unquote security researchers to shame by actually finding issues and fixing them and being 16. There’s no barriers. There’s no barriers to you have to study at college under this person and understand these. You can learn C, and let’s be honest, it’s from the K&R book. Learn C. You can learn assembly. We’ll talk about that maybe a bit later. You can contribute to world-class technologies.
Like JB said, we don’t care who you are, where you’re from, what you do. Teenagers have written thousands of lines of assembly over the years. Give a shout-out back in the days to Daniel Kang. So also highlighting the work of people like Ruikai Peng. This is a 16-year-old, some of his first contributions to FFmpeg, actually doing and putting some of these quote-unquote security researchers to shame by actually finding issues and fixing them and being 16. There’s no barriers. There’s no barriers to you have to study at college under this person and understand these. You can learn C, and let’s be honest, it’s from the K&R book. Learn C. You can learn assembly. We’ll talk about that maybe a bit later. You can contribute to world-class technologies.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
In VLC one of the oldest contributors called Felix, he’s the one doing everything on Mac and iOS. He’s starting working on VLC. He was 16. We had a guy called Edward Wang, who used to be a Google Summer of Code student who stayed for three years around VideoLAN. He was 14, right? And part of Google Summer of Code and Google Code-in, which were programs where basically we have students or high schoolers, we wrote a ton of assembly for x264 and for VLC and for FFmpeg, right? So everyone can contribute.
In VLC one of the oldest contributors called Felix, he’s the one doing everything on Mac and iOS. He’s starting working on VLC. He was 16. We had a guy called Edward Wang, who used to be a Google Summer of Code student who stayed for three years around VideoLAN. He was 14, right? And part of Google Summer of Code and Google Code-in, which were programs where basically we have students or high schoolers, we wrote a ton of assembly for x264 and for VLC and for FFmpeg, right? So everyone can contribute.
Kieran Kunhya
And he also did a good job because he didn’t play the alarmist CVE heist, create a CVE (which is like a public exposure of security), and do these big scary red 7.5 high priority. He just fixed an issue in Git after three days and just fixed it. He didn’t need to go and play a big security drama about it. And I think I posted, you know, “the kids are all right.” Whereas there is a portion—I’m not saying all security people do this, but there is a portion of the security community, as Alex said, that likes to hype themselves up by creating drama. They would have happily raised, “This is a high priority CVE 8.0” or whatever on an issue that actually was in Git. It wasn’t even in a release, it was in development, and three days later was fixed.
And he also did a good job because he didn’t play the alarmist CVE heist, create a CVE (which is like a public exposure of security), and do these big scary red 7.5 high priority. He just fixed an issue in Git after three days and just fixed it. He didn’t need to go and play a big security drama about it. And I think I posted, you know, “the kids are all right.” Whereas there is a portion—I’m not saying all security people do this, but there is a portion of the security community, as Alex said, that likes to hype themselves up by creating drama. They would have happily raised, “This is a high priority CVE 8.0” or whatever on an issue that actually was in Git. It wasn’t even in a release, it was in development, and three days later was fixed.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Well, I just want to put a little bit of love out there, even to the bigger community. Much love and respect to Google engineers. Like you said, they’re some of the best software engineers in the world, and they do contribute a lot— … even on the security front. And also, you know, I’m a big fan of Theo. Much love to Theo. He was part of this debacle and drama a little bit. I think when you just zoom out on the grand arc of human history, the drama contributed positively to everybody involved. Donations went up. It brought more attention to the topic, allowed everybody to bicker in a way that ultimately got them to figure out what FFmpeg is all about.
Well, I just want to put a little bit of love out there, even to the bigger community. Much love and respect to Google engineers. Like you said, they’re some of the best software engineers in the world, and they do contribute a lot— … even on the security front. And also, you know, I’m a big fan of Theo. Much love to Theo. He was part of this debacle and drama a little bit. I think when you just zoom out on the grand arc of human history, the drama contributed positively to everybody involved. Donations went up. It brought more attention to the topic, allowed everybody to bicker in a way that ultimately got them to figure out what FFmpeg is all about.
Kieran Kunhya
So the way we looked at this is like it’s a rap battle at the end of the day, you know? No, but it is, it is.
So the way we looked at this is like it’s a rap battle at the end of the day, you know? No, but it is, it is.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It is. It is.
It is. It is.
Kieran Kunhya
We say stuff, we say stuff- … but we can, we can leave it on. X is a perfect place for, you know, international rap battle. You say stuff. I say stuff about your mama, but it doesn’t mean, you know, I have an actual personal issue with her. And that’s what it looks like. The Theo situation, you know, JB can maybe expand, went a little bit too far and there was a little… But, you know, it’s just a bit of fun. It’s just a bit of rap battle. It’s a bit—it’s WWE. You know, everyone’s having a bit of fun on X. It doesn’t need to be taken seriously. You know, the teenagers thing, you know, that… So that guy was a Google employee saying, “Hey, you know, there are other ways to run an open source business.” You know, and there’s like, oh, man, just have a bit of fun, you know?
We say stuff, we say stuff- … but we can, we can leave it on. X is a perfect place for, you know, international rap battle. You say stuff. I say stuff about your mama, but it doesn’t mean, you know, I have an actual personal issue with her. And that’s what it looks like. The Theo situation, you know, JB can maybe expand, went a little bit too far and there was a little… But, you know, it’s just a bit of fun. It’s just a bit of rap battle. It’s a bit—it’s WWE. You know, everyone’s having a bit of fun on X. It doesn’t need to be taken seriously. You know, the teenagers thing, you know, that… So that guy was a Google employee saying, “Hey, you know, there are other ways to run an open source business.” You know, and there’s like, oh, man, just have a bit of fun, you know?
Kieran Kunhya
That’s what the point of this account is. And furthermore, if you can teach people about the ways of open source projects, assembly, et cetera, by doing that, I think there’s a lot to be offered here. It’s not dunking on people for dunking’s sake. It’s showing actually the story that I think X learnt is these are not big corporate open source projects. This is not Kubernetes where there’s, you know, hundreds, maybe thousands of people- … paid to develop this stuff. These are just people in their basements in their spare time, and if you can address that topic in a fun and entertaining way- … I think that that’s the good thing and that’s, that’s the value of X and then the reach we have.
That’s what the point of this account is. And furthermore, if you can teach people about the ways of open source projects, assembly, et cetera, by doing that, I think there’s a lot to be offered here. It’s not dunking on people for dunking’s sake. It’s showing actually the story that I think X learnt is these are not big corporate open source projects. This is not Kubernetes where there’s, you know, hundreds, maybe thousands of people- … paid to develop this stuff. These are just people in their basements in their spare time, and if you can address that topic in a fun and entertaining way- … I think that that’s the good thing and that’s, that’s the value of X and then the reach we have.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And to be honest, right, like even at Google, Google is one entity, but so many different people, right? And there is a ton of Google engineers we work with all the time, and even like Google from YouTube to Chrome to Chrome Media to the rest of Google, those are very different type of entities. But what we do is efficient. And, for example for Theo, right? It went a bit too far. I had him… Like I calmed everyone down. I had him on the phone. We say, “Okay, like this goes too far,” and so on. But in the end yeah, it’s a rap battle, but it’s positive for the project. It—like the awareness we have on open source and, and I mean true open source from communities right now—is increased dramatically in the last two years, and this is useful.
And to be honest, right, like even at Google, Google is one entity, but so many different people, right? And there is a ton of Google engineers we work with all the time, and even like Google from YouTube to Chrome to Chrome Media to the rest of Google, those are very different type of entities. But what we do is efficient. And, for example for Theo, right? It went a bit too far. I had him… Like I calmed everyone down. I had him on the phone. We say, “Okay, like this goes too far,” and so on. But in the end yeah, it’s a rap battle, but it’s positive for the project. It—like the awareness we have on open source and, and I mean true open source from communities right now—is increased dramatically in the last two years, and this is useful.
FFmpeg developers
Kieran Kunhya
What do you think motivates all the incredible contributors that we’ve been talking about? Like, what’s the engine? It’s so interesting to see.
What do you think motivates all the incredible contributors that we’ve been talking about? Like, what’s the engine? It’s so interesting to see.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So-
So-
Kieran Kunhya
Like you said, they’re sitting in the basement. What’s the driver? What’s the engine there?
Like you said, they’re sitting in the basement. What’s the driver? What’s the engine there?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There are many drivers, but weirdly the main one is that what we do in multimedia plays videos, and video is cool, right? And, for example, we have so many people in the community who arrive because they loved watching anime, right? And this is like the advice when people ask me, “What should I work on in open source? How do I start?” And my answer is always the same: work on something you love.
There are many drivers, but weirdly the main one is that what we do in multimedia plays videos, and video is cool, right? And, for example, we have so many people in the community who arrive because they loved watching anime, right? And this is like the advice when people ask me, “What should I work on in open source? How do I start?” And my answer is always the same: work on something you love.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
I am working on VLC because I love movies, right? And I love watching the same movies over and over, even if my wife hates me when I do that, right? But because it’s interesting, right? Because it’s a topic that you like, right? The first, that’s the first thing where people come to usually to VLC and FFmpeg. The second thing is that technically we, because we search for excellence, this is the best school ever, right? This is the best school ever of programming. If you’re good in C, in FFmpeg, if you know how to write assembly, I assure you you’re going to be one of the best programmers ever, even if you’re working on writing TypeScript, because this is the most amazing thing to do.
I am working on VLC because I love movies, right? And I love watching the same movies over and over, even if my wife hates me when I do that, right? But because it’s interesting, right? Because it’s a topic that you like, right? The first, that’s the first thing where people come to usually to VLC and FFmpeg. The second thing is that technically we, because we search for excellence, this is the best school ever, right? This is the best school ever of programming. If you’re good in C, in FFmpeg, if you know how to write assembly, I assure you you’re going to be one of the best programmers ever, even if you’re working on writing TypeScript, because this is the most amazing thing to do.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And you will, like, have to get reviews by some of the most seasoned programmers ever who are going to look at every part of your code and tell you why it’s not great. It’s like we are the best teachers that you’ve ever had in programming, right?
And you will, like, have to get reviews by some of the most seasoned programmers ever who are going to look at every part of your code and tell you why it’s not great. It’s like we are the best teachers that you’ve ever had in programming, right?
Kieran Kunhya
Andrew Kelley started Zig. He was an FFmpeg developer and started Zig after his FFmpeg school. I mean, it, it’s the place to learn so many aspects of programming in the real world, in a thing used by billions of people. You have nowhere to hide. You have to be open and honest about your flaws and, and how you can learn and be better.
Andrew Kelley started Zig. He was an FFmpeg developer and started Zig after his FFmpeg school. I mean, it, it’s the place to learn so many aspects of programming in the real world, in a thing used by billions of people. You have nowhere to hide. You have to be open and honest about your flaws and, and how you can learn and be better.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And what is also interesting in multimedia is that you have 16 milliseconds to display a frame. It’s not like a game engine where you can basically slow down and wait a frame. So it’s, you need to be good, right? There is no choice, else you don’t have your video. And because of how codecs, if you miss a frame, you’re going to destroy the look of the video, right? So you need to be good. You need to be perfect to have the right thing. But also is that it’s not just pure programming in the mathematical sense, right? A lot of people don’t understand, but in order to program correctly on the open source multimedia community, you need to understand how computers work. And when you write assembly, you need to understand about CPU pipelining, right?
And what is also interesting in multimedia is that you have 16 milliseconds to display a frame. It’s not like a game engine where you can basically slow down and wait a frame. So it’s, you need to be good, right? There is no choice, else you don’t have your video. And because of how codecs, if you miss a frame, you’re going to destroy the look of the video, right? So you need to be good. You need to be perfect to have the right thing. But also is that it’s not just pure programming in the mathematical sense, right? A lot of people don’t understand, but in order to program correctly on the open source multimedia community, you need to understand how computers work. And when you write assembly, you need to understand about CPU pipelining, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You need to understand how SIMD works, how the ALU works, right? You need to understand how I/O works, right? And this is what I think that is missing to a lot of engineers and software engineers today, is understanding what we call computer architecture. And, like, seriously, some of the debates is like, should we use this assembly call or this one? And people say, “Well, no, it’s going to be like three cycles on this type of CPU and this one,” and has massive impact on the output, right?
You need to understand how SIMD works, how the ALU works, right? You need to understand how I/O works, right? And this is what I think that is missing to a lot of engineers and software engineers today, is understanding what we call computer architecture. And, like, seriously, some of the debates is like, should we use this assembly call or this one? And people say, “Well, no, it’s going to be like three cycles on this type of CPU and this one,” and has massive impact on the output, right?
Kieran Kunhya
We should expand. FFmpeg is probably one of the biggest CPU users in the world. There’s proba- it’s probably running- … as we speak easily 100 mil- order of magnitude 100 million, maybe even a billion CPUs as we speak. So every instruction matters. There’s not… The impact, at least in terms of CPU, is massive for everything that we do.
We should expand. FFmpeg is probably one of the biggest CPU users in the world. There’s proba- it’s probably running- … as we speak easily 100 mil- order of magnitude 100 million, maybe even a billion CPUs as we speak. So every instruction matters. There’s not… The impact, at least in terms of CPU, is massive for everything that we do.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So first you come because it’s an interesting subject, then you stay because it’s excellent, and in the end you’re very proud of it because it’s on the end of everyone. Like so many people like, “Oh, I’m working for whatever consulting company and I’m doing some portal to download invoices for your PG&E.” Wow, great. Like, so many jobs are like that. You’re not going to tell that to your grandma. But if you go to see your grandma and say, “I do this so that you can play video on your laptop,” they understand. And this is very important, right? Because you’re working on VLC, FFmpeg, H.264. It’s in the end of hundreds of millions of people and you have an impact. And so you can be proud of yourself.
So first you come because it’s an interesting subject, then you stay because it’s excellent, and in the end you’re very proud of it because it’s on the end of everyone. Like so many people like, “Oh, I’m working for whatever consulting company and I’m doing some portal to download invoices for your PG&E.” Wow, great. Like, so many jobs are like that. You’re not going to tell that to your grandma. But if you go to see your grandma and say, “I do this so that you can play video on your laptop,” they understand. And this is very important, right? Because you’re working on VLC, FFmpeg, H.264. It’s in the end of hundreds of millions of people and you have an impact. And so you can be proud of yourself.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so I think that in addition to doing a great resume, all those things are why people contribute.
And so I think that in addition to doing a great resume, all those things are why people contribute.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, those are side effects. My favorite quote on this topic is John Collison. He said, “The world is a museum of passion projects.” You know, everything out there is a passion project. And open source multimedia and open source in general, you can just do that so much faster. There’s such a faster network effect, you know?
Yeah, those are side effects. My favorite quote on this topic is John Collison. He said, “The world is a museum of passion projects.” You know, everything out there is a passion project. And open source multimedia and open source in general, you can just do that so much faster. There’s such a faster network effect, you know?
Kieran Kunhya
I can open a cafe and that can be my passion project, but I have to get building codes, I have to build a building, I have to find a location, I have to do all the, you know, all sorts of things. Well, in the software world, that passion project can move quickly, it can be amplified by the network effect, and that amplification can be more than the sum of the parts. You know, you can be, you can find people interested in extremely obscure things and have a network effect and make something that is truly amazing.
I can open a cafe and that can be my passion project, but I have to get building codes, I have to build a building, I have to find a location, I have to do all the, you know, all sorts of things. Well, in the software world, that passion project can move quickly, it can be amplified by the network effect, and that amplification can be more than the sum of the parts. You know, you can be, you can find people interested in extremely obscure things and have a network effect and make something that is truly amazing.
Lex Fridman
And on that topic of passion projects, Tim Sweeney actually said in a reply to a tweet that was complimenting JB. He said, quote, “Many things in the world only happen because an awesome person decides to do it. This is the case with VLC.” And that speaks to something interesting to me, that it does seem that a small number of people, sometimes one person, can create something incredible in the software world. Like you said this over and over and over. I think JavaScript is an incredible thing created by initially a single person. Some of the programming languages like Python and C and Java, like just one person has this vision, has this design, and brings it—sometimes over a weekend is the initial spark.
And on that topic of passion projects, Tim Sweeney actually said in a reply to a tweet that was complimenting JB. He said, quote, “Many things in the world only happen because an awesome person decides to do it. This is the case with VLC.” And that speaks to something interesting to me, that it does seem that a small number of people, sometimes one person, can create something incredible in the software world. Like you said this over and over and over. I think JavaScript is an incredible thing created by initially a single person. Some of the programming languages like Python and C and Java, like just one person has this vision, has this design, and brings it—sometimes over a weekend is the initial spark.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, Linus built Git in two weeks. Wow.
Yes, Linus built Git in two weeks. Wow.
Lex Fridman
It changed the world, Git. I mean, it really changed the world.
It changed the world, Git. I mean, it really changed the world.
Kieran Kunhya
Linus’ passion project. “Hey, I’m uploading this tarball to an FTP, like deal with it.”
Linus’ passion project. “Hey, I’m uploading this tarball to an FTP, like deal with it.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But for me, it’s not just in software, right? And I believe in individuals that are going to change the world, right? And it’s with a good, as you said, vision, right? I want to do that. It is useful, it will be useful. And whether it’s going to like build trains or cars or rockets or something like, I believe people who believe in themselves and have a vision can have a huge impact for humanity.
But for me, it’s not just in software, right? And I believe in individuals that are going to change the world, right? And it’s with a good, as you said, vision, right? I want to do that. It is useful, it will be useful. And whether it’s going to like build trains or cars or rockets or something like, I believe people who believe in themselves and have a vision can have a huge impact for humanity.
VLC and FFmpeg
Lex Fridman
Let’s actually zoom out before we zoom back in. We’ll just keep going up and down the stack. So you know, we’ve been talking back and forth VLC and FFmpeg. Kieran, you said that FFmpeg and VideoLAN, VLC coexist, and there’s no central point of importance. It’s a kind of what you call the binary star system. They succeed because of each other. Can you explain the difference, how they interact? What is the-
Let’s actually zoom out before we zoom back in. We’ll just keep going up and down the stack. So you know, we’ve been talking back and forth VLC and FFmpeg. Kieran, you said that FFmpeg and VideoLAN, VLC coexist, and there’s no central point of importance. It’s a kind of what you call the binary star system. They succeed because of each other. Can you explain the difference, how they interact? What is the-
Kieran Kunhya
Sure
Sure
Lex Fridman
… are they competitors?
… are they competitors?
Kieran Kunhya
I don’t, I don’t think they’re competitors. I think, I think the simple answer is, the short answer before I go into detail is: VLC is to FFmpeg as Android is to Linux. So they depend on each other, but they, they coexist because of each other. So they are a binary star system is the analogy I used.
I don’t, I don’t think they’re competitors. I think, I think the simple answer is, the short answer before I go into detail is: VLC is to FFmpeg as Android is to Linux. So they depend on each other, but they, they coexist because of each other. So they are a binary star system is the analogy I used.
Lex Fridman
By the way, I feel horrible that I just recently learned that Alpha Centauri, the closest star system to us, is a triple star system.
By the way, I feel horrible that I just recently learned that Alpha Centauri, the closest star system to us, is a triple star system.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And, and when you start doing the physics, it’s a nightmare, right? But like-
And, and when you start doing the physics, it’s a nightmare, right? But like-
Kieran Kunhya
Hence the three-body problem. But anyway. So a lot of FFmpeg pipelines involve the x264 project, which is a VideoLAN project. I would put a finger in the air and say 80-plus percent of those pipelines are dependent on a VideoLAN project. VLC, obviously, as we’ve discussed, a VideoLAN project, uses FFmpeg, gives it reach, exposure to weird files historically, used some donation money to fund FFmpeg development, and we’ll talk a bit maybe about some of the reverse engineering later. So it’s a binary star system. They work and feed off each other. Many of the developers are shared. There’s no central location. It’s a virtuous cycle working together.
Hence the three-body problem. But anyway. So a lot of FFmpeg pipelines involve the x264 project, which is a VideoLAN project. I would put a finger in the air and say 80-plus percent of those pipelines are dependent on a VideoLAN project. VLC, obviously, as we’ve discussed, a VideoLAN project, uses FFmpeg, gives it reach, exposure to weird files historically, used some donation money to fund FFmpeg development, and we’ll talk a bit maybe about some of the reverse engineering later. So it’s a binary star system. They work and feed off each other. Many of the developers are shared. There’s no central location. It’s a virtuous cycle working together.
Lex Fridman
And we should mention that x264 is the encoder for H.264 video standard. So H.264 is the standard. X264-
And we should mention that x264 is the encoder for H.264 video standard. So H.264 is the standard. X264-
Kieran Kunhya
Is the open source implementation of the standard
Is the open source implementation of the standard
Lex Fridman
… that’s used by basically everybody- … for everything. It’s, that is the main driver of this. When you think of an MP4 file that has H.264 codec in it-
… that’s used by basically everybody- … for everything. It’s, that is the main driver of this. When you think of an MP4 file that has H.264 codec in it-
Kieran Kunhya
If it came from a software environment, like a data center or somewhere, the chances are it was created with x264.
If it came from a software environment, like a data center or somewhere, the chances are it was created with x264.
Lex Fridman
And that’s under the flag of VideoLAN.
And that’s under the flag of VideoLAN.
Kieran Kunhya
That’s a VideoLAN project. So in the VideoLAN graphic, it sits in the VideoLAN world.
That’s a VideoLAN project. So in the VideoLAN graphic, it sits in the VideoLAN world.
Lex Fridman
And VideoLAN has a— says a bunch of stuff in it. Go to the VideoLAN website, there’s a bunch of icons.
And VideoLAN has a— says a bunch of stuff in it. Go to the VideoLAN website, there’s a bunch of icons.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Like if you look, there are so many libraries, right?
Like if you look, there are so many libraries, right?
Lex Fridman
libdvdcss- … libdvdnav, libdvbpsi, libVLC of course, vlc-unity, libbluray- Blu-ray.
libdvdcss- … libdvdnav, libdvbpsi, libVLC of course, vlc-unity, libbluray- Blu-ray.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Blu-ray.
Blu-ray.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, there’s many more.
Yeah, there’s many more.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And there is so many more, right? Lately, the dav1d project that we might talk about is the last project from VideoLAN. It’s everywhere, right? And we do, we have a libspatialaudio lately that we announced. We have a-
And there is so many more, right? Lately, the dav1d project that we might talk about is the last project from VideoLAN. It’s everywhere, right? And we do, we have a libspatialaudio lately that we announced. We have a-
Kieran Kunhya
checkasm.
checkasm.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
checkasm-
checkasm-
Kieran Kunhya
We’ll talk about that later.
We’ll talk about that later.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… which is like an insane project- … but amazing. So, and x264 is one of those VideoLAN projects. And my opinion, for example, is that x264 was, is the most amazing encoder ever designed, and this helped the adoption of FFmpeg. A lot of people and large companies went through FFmpeg because they wanted to use x264, and x264 increased the popularity of FFmpeg. But also VLC had its popularity because it played so many files that were done by FFmpeg, right? So it’s many projects that are intertwined and work together.
… which is like an insane project- … but amazing. So, and x264 is one of those VideoLAN projects. And my opinion, for example, is that x264 was, is the most amazing encoder ever designed, and this helped the adoption of FFmpeg. A lot of people and large companies went through FFmpeg because they wanted to use x264, and x264 increased the popularity of FFmpeg. But also VLC had its popularity because it played so many files that were done by FFmpeg, right? So it’s many projects that are intertwined and work together.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. Unfortunately, there’s a thing on X where VLC is mentioned and there’s people, “A quick reminder that it’s FFmpeg inside doing the actual work.” And that’s like I said, it’s not, that’s not the case. We work together.
Yeah. Unfortunately, there’s a thing on X where VLC is mentioned and there’s people, “A quick reminder that it’s FFmpeg inside doing the actual work.” And that’s like I said, it’s not, that’s not the case. We work together.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And to give you an idea, right? When I compiled VLC for Windows, I compiled around 16 million lines of code, right? One million of those are inside the VLC repository, and FFmpeg in total is probably around two, right? But so it means that so many dependencies are outside. And if you also look at FFmpeg per se, FFmpeg also is integrating third-party libraries like x264, but libopus and so many others, right? So we all depend on each other.
And to give you an idea, right? When I compiled VLC for Windows, I compiled around 16 million lines of code, right? One million of those are inside the VLC repository, and FFmpeg in total is probably around two, right? But so it means that so many dependencies are outside. And if you also look at FFmpeg per se, FFmpeg also is integrating third-party libraries like x264, but libopus and so many others, right? So we all depend on each other.
History of FFmpeg
Lex Fridman
Yeah, that’s why I was hoping to do this episode as we are doing that just kind of joins FFmpeg and VLC- … because it’s really two of the same, like you said, binary star system and we’re all just orbiting it. Can we give a shout-out to some of the people along the way? We didn’t really quite talk about the history of FFmpeg, so maybe can you tell me about Fabrice? Can you tell me about Michael Niedermayer? Can you tell me about some of the key figures here?
Yeah, that’s why I was hoping to do this episode as we are doing that just kind of joins FFmpeg and VLC- … because it’s really two of the same, like you said, binary star system and we’re all just orbiting it. Can we give a shout-out to some of the people along the way? We didn’t really quite talk about the history of FFmpeg, so maybe can you tell me about Fabrice? Can you tell me about Michael Niedermayer? Can you tell me about some of the key figures here?
Kieran Kunhya
Let’s just talk about the eras of FFmpeg, because there’s key eras and key people that made this possible. Fabrice Bellard, as you mentioned, creating the concept, and then probably in the 2000 era— I would call the era, Eras Tour of FFmpeg— is the 2000 era was Michael Niedermayer. So key things he got done was exhaustive support for DivX and Xvid at the time, and all sorts of weird variants of what’s known as MPEG-4 Part 2. So this predates the MPEG-4 Part 10 that we’re used to. So this was 2000 era video codecs where there were flavor after flavor of weird, weird decoders.
Let’s just talk about the eras of FFmpeg, because there’s key eras and key people that made this possible. Fabrice Bellard, as you mentioned, creating the concept, and then probably in the 2000 era— I would call the era, Eras Tour of FFmpeg— is the 2000 era was Michael Niedermayer. So key things he got done was exhaustive support for DivX and Xvid at the time, and all sorts of weird variants of what’s known as MPEG-4 Part 2. So this predates the MPEG-4 Part 10 that we’re used to. So this was 2000 era video codecs where there were flavor after flavor of weird, weird decoders.
Kieran Kunhya
At the time in the 2000s, you needed a new player to play every different type of file format. So there was Windows Media Player to play Windows Media formats. There was RealPlayer to play RealMedia formats. And those were the other key thing in FFmpeg at the time were native decoders for those. I actually do remember being a teenager, I must have been, figuring out there was this one player that could play, could decode these files without having separate bloated players. Because at the time when you downloaded RealPlayer, there was a ton of other stuff in there, a ton of ads, a ton of other things, and just having a simple library that was fast led to that.
At the time in the 2000s, you needed a new player to play every different type of file format. So there was Windows Media Player to play Windows Media formats. There was RealPlayer to play RealMedia formats. And those were the other key thing in FFmpeg at the time were native decoders for those. I actually do remember being a teenager, I must have been, figuring out there was this one player that could play, could decode these files without having separate bloated players. Because at the time when you downloaded RealPlayer, there was a ton of other stuff in there, a ton of ads, a ton of other things, and just having a simple library that was fast led to that.
Kieran Kunhya
And then I think 2008 was a big change because that’s when H.264 got its maturity and I think something hopefully we’ll talk about a bit more. This was the beginning of high definition video. So H.264 was the key decoder of that. So I’d call that the late 2000s and 2010s, and that’s when the big reverse engineers came along and really did astonishing work. The beginning was a single player that could play Xvid, DivX, Windows Media, and RealPlayer was already a massive achievement in itself without codec packs, without weird stuff you had to download that had weird ads and weird spyware.
And then I think 2008 was a big change because that’s when H.264 got its maturity and I think something hopefully we’ll talk about a bit more. This was the beginning of high definition video. So H.264 was the key decoder of that. So I’d call that the late 2000s and 2010s, and that’s when the big reverse engineers came along and really did astonishing work. The beginning was a single player that could play Xvid, DivX, Windows Media, and RealPlayer was already a massive achievement in itself without codec packs, without weird stuff you had to download that had weird ads and weird spyware.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
VLC 1.0 was out in those times, 2000, 2009, 2010. And this is like where it exploded.
VLC 1.0 was out in those times, 2000, 2009, 2010. And this is like where it exploded.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, without codec packs, it just works- … across all these different-
Yeah, without codec packs, it just works- … across all these different-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It, de facto, it’s just like all the codec packs are FFmpeg inside VLC, plus we have other modules for all the types of codecs.
It, de facto, it’s just like all the codec packs are FFmpeg inside VLC, plus we have other modules for all the types of codecs.
Kieran Kunhya
But back at the time that wasn’t… is there were weird, in the 2000s, there were weird codec packs with DLLs coming from this place, DLLs coming from that-
But back at the time that wasn’t… is there were weird, in the 2000s, there were weird codec packs with DLLs coming from this place, DLLs coming from that-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
With a lot of spyware.
With a lot of spyware.
Kieran Kunhya
… with spyware, with you know what. It wasn’t reliable, you didn’t know, and having a single player that was open source or single playback module/player that could do this that was open source. But I think the thing to emphasize is this task in the 2000s that Michael did was Sisyphean. It was really, the number of edge cases are poor beyond comprehension in terms of you could have a Chinese CCTV system that did one weird variant of MPEG-4 Part 2, what’s known as MPEG-4 ASP, and that was a weird variant, and you had to fix that without breaking everybody else- … times a million.
… with spyware, with you know what. It wasn’t reliable, you didn’t know, and having a single player that was open source or single playback module/player that could do this that was open source. But I think the thing to emphasize is this task in the 2000s that Michael did was Sisyphean. It was really, the number of edge cases are poor beyond comprehension in terms of you could have a Chinese CCTV system that did one weird variant of MPEG-4 Part 2, what’s known as MPEG-4 ASP, and that was a weird variant, and you had to fix that without breaking everybody else- … times a million.
Reverse engineering codecs
Lex Fridman
So that’s where a lot of the reverse engineering was happening.
So that’s where a lot of the reverse engineering was happening.
Kieran Kunhya
It started in the 2000s with the Windows Media stuff because that was- … proprietary. It started with the RealMedia, so with Benjamin Larsson.
It started in the 2000s with the Windows Media stuff because that was- … proprietary. It started with the RealMedia, so with Benjamin Larsson.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Kostya Shishkov.
Kostya Shishkov.
Kieran Kunhya
Kostya Shishkov, that era. Those were the key, that was the key groundwork. And then in the 2010s was kind of the Paul Mahol, Kostya era building, doing some of the most difficult codecs. JB maybe can talk about GoToMeeting 4 and GoToMeeting 5, and-
Kostya Shishkov, that era. Those were the key, that was the key groundwork. And then in the 2010s was kind of the Paul Mahol, Kostya era building, doing some of the most difficult codecs. JB maybe can talk about GoToMeeting 4 and GoToMeeting 5, and-
Lex Fridman
What’s the GoToMeeting?
What’s the GoToMeeting?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So, like, let’s talk about this amazing Ukrainian guy called Kostya, who was at that time living in Germany, and who was in love with Sweden, right? He— And the guy was the most… He’s like a lot of the people in the community are very clever. He’s one of those who are, like, borderline geniuses, right? He was able to reverse engineer extremely complex codecs and he does that, and we do a bit of engineering with Kieran, but clearly not at this level.
So, like, let’s talk about this amazing Ukrainian guy called Kostya, who was at that time living in Germany, and who was in love with Sweden, right? He— And the guy was the most… He’s like a lot of the people in the community are very clever. He’s one of those who are, like, borderline geniuses, right? He was able to reverse engineer extremely complex codecs and he does that, and we do a bit of engineering with Kieran, but clearly not at this level.
Kieran Kunhya
No, no, yeah.
No, no, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
He reverse engineered binary blobs, which are 20 megabytes?
He reverse engineered binary blobs, which are 20 megabytes?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, so just for reference, one megabyte binary blob to reverse engineer is probably order of magnitude a month of work, and this guy is doing 20, 30 megabyte blobs. Maybe we’ll talk about that in a minute, about the subtleties of how you do that. But this guy is doing it for very difficult and very obscure codecs.
Yeah, so just for reference, one megabyte binary blob to reverse engineer is probably order of magnitude a month of work, and this guy is doing 20, 30 megabyte blobs. Maybe we’ll talk about that in a minute, about the subtleties of how you do that. But this guy is doing it for very difficult and very obscure codecs.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And did that for fun, right? And so GoToMeeting was a big problem with VLC because that was like the number one feature request for a long time, so I put a bounty. And the guy at some point said, “Okay, JB, I’m going to do it.” And in a matter of two months, and then he explained how he did it. He was just like, “Oh, I looked at the code, like this looked like a DCT that I used to see on WMV and so on.” He did that, and the funniest part is that the code he’s written is a ton of jokes. And there is a ton of JB, right, my name, and Kempf and Kempf and Kostya jokes inside the code. The code is beautiful, right?
And did that for fun, right? And so GoToMeeting was a big problem with VLC because that was like the number one feature request for a long time, so I put a bounty. And the guy at some point said, “Okay, JB, I’m going to do it.” And in a matter of two months, and then he explained how he did it. He was just like, “Oh, I looked at the code, like this looked like a DCT that I used to see on WMV and so on.” He did that, and the funniest part is that the code he’s written is a ton of jokes. And there is a ton of JB, right, my name, and Kempf and Kempf and Kostya jokes inside the code. The code is beautiful, right?
Lex Fridman
So one of the things I wanna comment is I’ve gotten a chance to speak to some of the developers, some of the assembly language level people, and they all always make everything sound like it’s kinda easy. There’s a kind of humility because, maybe just the level of what’s required to do this stuff is so high that everything else seems easy, I guess is the lesson to take away from that.
So one of the things I wanna comment is I’ve gotten a chance to speak to some of the developers, some of the assembly language level people, and they all always make everything sound like it’s kinda easy. There’s a kind of humility because, maybe just the level of what’s required to do this stuff is so high that everything else seems easy, I guess is the lesson to take away from that.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So in the community, like some of the most impressive people are the ones doing reverse engineering- … and the other ones doing the assembly folds, right? And both of those type of people are amazing. x264, for example, became amazing because of a guy called Loren Merritt- … who is, was from University of Washington, I think.
So in the community, like some of the most impressive people are the ones doing reverse engineering- … and the other ones doing the assembly folds, right? And both of those type of people are amazing. x264, for example, became amazing because of a guy called Loren Merritt- … who is, was from University of Washington, I think.
Kieran Kunhya
At the time, yeah.
At the time, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And who was, like, who made everything great and fast doing a ton of assembly. So this is like the golden era, I guess, where so many things got done.
And who was, like, who made everything great and fast doing a ton of assembly. So this is like the golden era, I guess, where so many things got done.
Kieran Kunhya
So, yeah, if you look at Kostya, for example, he looked at the world as a binary specification. He didn’t need documentation or anything. It’s, “I have a binary and I can figure all of this out.” And he regularly used the phrase “binary specification.” Ah, you know, it’s not a problem. And he would go away, and he would come back, and he would do interesting stuff.
So, yeah, if you look at Kostya, for example, he looked at the world as a binary specification. He didn’t need documentation or anything. It’s, “I have a binary and I can figure all of this out.” And he regularly used the phrase “binary specification.” Ah, you know, it’s not a problem. And he would go away, and he would come back, and he would do interesting stuff.
Lex Fridman
Can you actually speak to the details or add color and texture to what it takes to reverse engineer a blob?
Can you actually speak to the details or add color and texture to what it takes to reverse engineer a blob?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. So let’s look at GoToMeeting, for example, is a good one because I record a meeting on GoToMeeting, for example. How do I play it back without needing this GoToMeeting player? There may not even be a player. I may need to send a recording of a meeting to someone that doesn’t have a player or whatever. So first of all, there’s a ton of other stuff there. There’s an actual video conferencing client. You need to go and find—it may be easy, it may not be easy to find—the actual module doing the decompression. You need a way to actually dump the YUV data from the module. So often it involves opening in a disassembler, trying to guess where the hooks are to incorporate that module and run that module natively to decode a sample file.
Yeah. So let’s look at GoToMeeting, for example, is a good one because I record a meeting on GoToMeeting, for example. How do I play it back without needing this GoToMeeting player? There may not even be a player. I may need to send a recording of a meeting to someone that doesn’t have a player or whatever. So first of all, there’s a ton of other stuff there. There’s an actual video conferencing client. You need to go and find—it may be easy, it may not be easy to find—the actual module doing the decompression. You need a way to actually dump the YUV data from the module. So often it involves opening in a disassembler, trying to guess where the hooks are to incorporate that module and run that module natively to decode a sample file.
Kieran Kunhya
So figure out where this module is doing the decoding process and find a way to hook in and output the raw YUV data, ’cause you will need that- … as a point of comparison for when you actually do the reverse engineering, ’cause you’ll need to be bit exact or in some cases close to bit exact. And then you open up your disassembler, use a lot of intuition to go and figure out, you know, where the DCT is, where’s entropy coding. There is a kind of, not a rule book, but there’s always a pattern of some sort. For example, GoToMeeting, you know it will be a lot of screen codec tools. There’s also different variants, so often I think there’s, what, GoToMeeting 4, 5-
So figure out where this module is doing the decoding process and find a way to hook in and output the raw YUV data, ’cause you will need that- … as a point of comparison for when you actually do the reverse engineering, ’cause you’ll need to be bit exact or in some cases close to bit exact. And then you open up your disassembler, use a lot of intuition to go and figure out, you know, where the DCT is, where’s entropy coding. There is a kind of, not a rule book, but there’s always a pattern of some sort. For example, GoToMeeting, you know it will be a lot of screen codec tools. There’s also different variants, so often I think there’s, what, GoToMeeting 4, 5-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Well, 2 or 3, 4, I think.
Well, 2 or 3, 4, I think.
Kieran Kunhya
2, 3, 4.
2, 3, 4.
Lex Fridman
So as you mentioned here, going to Perplexity, GoToMeeting uses its own proprietary codec for older s- recorded sessions historically stored in WMV files that require a special decoder to play properly on Windows. Without this decoder installed, Windows Media Player and some editors cannot decode the video track, so you may only hear audio or see a black screen. Boy, do I remember that. But this is reverse engineering that.
So as you mentioned here, going to Perplexity, GoToMeeting uses its own proprietary codec for older s- recorded sessions historically stored in WMV files that require a special decoder to play properly on Windows. Without this decoder installed, Windows Media Player and some editors cannot decode the video track, so you may only hear audio or see a black screen. Boy, do I remember that. But this is reverse engineering that.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
This is key, right? Because the GoToMeeting is something that not many people know anymore, right? Well, you know about Zoom and Teams and so on. But like, now let’s fast-forward 10 years, 15 years, and like this is a Gotomeeting.exe for Windows 32 bits, right? Which is like, oh yeah, but I’m on Android, I’m on an iPad, I’m somewhere else, right? How are you going to do that? I’m going to be on RISC-V, on Arm. Those are blocked, but there are tons of files we need to support for the future. And this is why those type of work are exceptionally useful for humanity.
This is key, right? Because the GoToMeeting is something that not many people know anymore, right? Well, you know about Zoom and Teams and so on. But like, now let’s fast-forward 10 years, 15 years, and like this is a Gotomeeting.exe for Windows 32 bits, right? Which is like, oh yeah, but I’m on Android, I’m on an iPad, I’m somewhere else, right? How are you going to do that? I’m going to be on RISC-V, on Arm. Those are blocked, but there are tons of files we need to support for the future. And this is why those type of work are exceptionally useful for humanity.
Lex Fridman
I just have to say, though, that reverse engineering process is mind-blowing. It’s crazy. It’s like, it’s a kinda like, you know, I’ve been reading a lot and interview archeologists. I mean, you just have so little signal. Yes, yes, you know over time you get so much experience, you understand the structure of the original code, so you can kinda start inferring basics. But you’re like archaeologists with a little brush trying to reconstruct the entire human civilization.
I just have to say, though, that reverse engineering process is mind-blowing. It’s crazy. It’s like, it’s a kinda like, you know, I’ve been reading a lot and interview archeologists. I mean, you just have so little signal. Yes, yes, you know over time you get so much experience, you understand the structure of the original code, so you can kinda start inferring basics. But you’re like archaeologists with a little brush trying to reconstruct the entire human civilization.
Kieran Kunhya
Kieran is too humble, but Kieran has done some reverse engineering also.
Kieran is too humble, but Kieran has done some reverse engineering also.
Lex Fridman
Of CineForm, yeah, at the time-
Of CineForm, yeah, at the time-
Kieran Kunhya
CineForm, nice.
CineForm, nice.
Lex Fridman
… yeah, at the time before actually led to the open sourcing of that work. So in parallel to doing the binary side, you obviously have samples. In many cases, you don’t have many samples so you have to figure out what all the different flavors are, and you may have a So CineForm, for example, is actually a collection of different approaches and toolkits within that codec ’cause often it grows naturally. And the hard part is finding a sample that gets you kind of somewhere to start without having to implement 10 different other things. So start there. I think thankfully at the time I found a sample by pure chance that had a lot of flat blocks.
… yeah, at the time before actually led to the open sourcing of that work. So in parallel to doing the binary side, you obviously have samples. In many cases, you don’t have many samples so you have to figure out what all the different flavors are, and you may have a So CineForm, for example, is actually a collection of different approaches and toolkits within that codec ’cause often it grows naturally. And the hard part is finding a sample that gets you kind of somewhere to start without having to implement 10 different other things. So start there. I think thankfully at the time I found a sample by pure chance that had a lot of flat blocks.
Lex Fridman
It was animation, so that really helped a lot because it wasn’t using particularly complex coding tools, et cetera, and you could kind of get somewhere and then, and then build up and build up until you figure, “Hey, here’s a few bits here. I missed this. I missed this, this if branch that it does,” and go, “Oh.” So when we say samples, you mean sample videos- … and then, and then you’re tracking, trying to infer, like, what is this codec doing- … by observing the sample and then looking at what, at the machine lo-
It was animation, so that really helped a lot because it wasn’t using particularly complex coding tools, et cetera, and you could kind of get somewhere and then, and then build up and build up until you figure, “Hey, here’s a few bits here. I missed this. I missed this, this if branch that it does,” and go, “Oh.” So when we say samples, you mean sample videos- … and then, and then you’re tracking, trying to infer, like, what is this codec doing- … by observing the sample and then looking at what, at the machine lo-
Kieran Kunhya
The machine code saying-
The machine code saying-
Lex Fridman
At the machine code.
At the machine code.
Kieran Kunhya
… “Ah, I have byte, this byte is six. Take this branch.” And in a different sample, oh, it’s-
… “Ah, I have byte, this byte is six. Take this branch.” And in a different sample, oh, it’s-
Lex Fridman
That’s nuts, man.
That’s nuts, man.
Kieran Kunhya
And, and, and-
And, and, and-
Lex Fridman
That is nuts.
That is nuts.
Kieran Kunhya
… so you see, this is nuts. Then you go to things like GoToMeeting. It’s like-
… so you see, this is nuts. Then you go to things like GoToMeeting. It’s like-
Lex Fridman
Mine was easy, right?
Mine was easy, right?
Kieran Kunhya
… ima- imagine-
… ima- imagine-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, right.
Yeah, right.
Kieran Kunhya
… two orders of magnitude more complexity. A guy alone somewhere in Germany doing that. And for a long time, you work, you’re in a black box because a decoder, for a long time, because there are so many steps from the entropy decoding, the intra prediction, the motion prediction, the IDCT, and so on. For a long time, you don’t see anything, right? So you’re debugging purely in memory.
… two orders of magnitude more complexity. A guy alone somewhere in Germany doing that. And for a long time, you work, you’re in a black box because a decoder, for a long time, because there are so many steps from the entropy decoding, the intra prediction, the motion prediction, the IDCT, and so on. For a long time, you don’t see anything, right? So you’re debugging purely in memory.
Lex Fridman
Debugging guesswork.
Debugging guesswork.
Kieran Kunhya
And you may have the buffer that the coefficients are stored in completely wrong, and so you may be going down a complete rabbit hole thinking it’s this and then, oh damn, that’s not, that’s, that’s something else, and-
And you may have the buffer that the coefficients are stored in completely wrong, and so you may be going down a complete rabbit hole thinking it’s this and then, oh damn, that’s not, that’s, that’s something else, and-
Lex Fridman
And you’re doing that on binaries that are tens of megabytes, millions of instructions, right?
And you’re doing that on binaries that are tens of megabytes, millions of instructions, right?
Kieran Kunhya
So you’re, you’re stepping through the debugger, like one by one, you know, instruction by instruction going, “Hey, this instruction changes this. This does this.”
So you’re, you’re stepping through the debugger, like one by one, you know, instruction by instruction going, “Hey, this instruction changes this. This does this.”
Lex Fridman
Pausing the program on the CPU level. Like it’s-
Pausing the program on the CPU level. Like it’s-
Kieran Kunhya
Pausing it, yeah, on the CPU level, watching what’s going on, trying to figure out-
Pausing it, yeah, on the CPU level, watching what’s going on, trying to figure out-
Lex Fridman
Sometimes you need to, like, be in a VM, so that you can pause the VM.
Sometimes you need to, like, be in a VM, so that you can pause the VM.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, pause the VM, dump the memory, ’cause there could, some of the codecs could have encryption. There could be like a DRM on there. So you need to dump the memory from a virtual machine.
Yeah, pause the VM, dump the memory, ’cause there could, some of the codecs could have encryption. There could be like a DRM on there. So you need to dump the memory from a virtual machine.
Lex Fridman
Like when I joined École Centrale Paris in 2003, Jon Lech Johansen basically broke the DVD specification and created DeCSS, showed us how he was breaking a DRM, which was MP4 FairPlay from Apple. What he did on his laptop, and I was young, I was 21, was just like mind-blowing because he was basically debugging Windows inside a type of VM with ex- Like, wow. It’s incredible. It’s mind-blowing and inspiring. Does it get, like from your experience and from what you’ve seen in the community, does it get discouraging? Does it get-
Like when I joined École Centrale Paris in 2003, Jon Lech Johansen basically broke the DVD specification and created DeCSS, showed us how he was breaking a DRM, which was MP4 FairPlay from Apple. What he did on his laptop, and I was young, I was 21, was just like mind-blowing because he was basically debugging Windows inside a type of VM with ex- Like, wow. It’s incredible. It’s mind-blowing and inspiring. Does it get, like from your experience and from what you’ve seen in the community, does it get discouraging? Does it get-
Kieran Kunhya
People help you. People send you samples. People are keen. Sometimes you don’t have access to an encoder, so this is even more difficult because you just, you just ask and you have to ask for samples. I remember VideoLAN used to tweet for samples at one stage. “Hey, I need this obscure sample,” and-
People help you. People send you samples. People are keen. Sometimes you don’t have access to an encoder, so this is even more difficult because you just, you just ask and you have to ask for samples. I remember VideoLAN used to tweet for samples at one stage. “Hey, I need this obscure sample,” and-
Lex Fridman
For a long time I was, “Oh, I need this codec, and I need this codec.”
For a long time I was, “Oh, I need this codec, and I need this codec.”
Kieran Kunhya
And if you were really lucky, you would find like… If you were unlucky, you’d get nothing or you’d get one or two, and then they would… Sometimes you’d find a goldmine. It’s like, “Yeah, my company has 100,000 of these files ’cause we’re dependent on it for some reason.” And so those are the, those are kind of the best because then they can test bit exactness across the huge range of coding tools.
And if you were really lucky, you would find like… If you were unlucky, you’d get nothing or you’d get one or two, and then they would… Sometimes you’d find a goldmine. It’s like, “Yeah, my company has 100,000 of these files ’cause we’re dependent on it for some reason.” And so those are the, those are kind of the best because then they can test bit exactness across the huge range of coding tools.
Lex Fridman
Can you explain bit exactness?
Can you explain bit exactness?
Kieran Kunhya
Bit exactness, so most but not all video codecs, certainly from about the 2000s onwards, have a bit exact definition, so every implementation must produce exactly the same bits, bit for bit, in exactly the same data that comes out of a decoder.
Bit exactness, so most but not all video codecs, certainly from about the 2000s onwards, have a bit exact definition, so every implementation must produce exactly the same bits, bit for bit, in exactly the same data that comes out of a decoder.
Lex Fridman
For like a large number of samples?
For like a large number of samples?
Kieran Kunhya
For a given sample. So Lex’s implementation, JB’s implementation, and my implementation of H.264 must match bit exactly. That wasn’t the case in the ’90s of MPEG-2, probably fair to say one of the biggest mistakes the video industry made, and I think people who were in the room in ’92—I don’t think most or both of us were in diapers, I suspect—but have acknowledged… I would give a shout-out to Yuriy Reznik. He’s acknowledged that was one of the big mistakes of the era.
For a given sample. So Lex’s implementation, JB’s implementation, and my implementation of H.264 must match bit exactly. That wasn’t the case in the ’90s of MPEG-2, probably fair to say one of the biggest mistakes the video industry made, and I think people who were in the room in ’92—I don’t think most or both of us were in diapers, I suspect—but have acknowledged… I would give a shout-out to Yuriy Reznik. He’s acknowledged that was one of the big mistakes of the era.
Lex Fridman
And you’re saying the encoders needed to be able to run tests and then the, the, the bit exactness—I mean, that’s a nice thing to guarantee. Like there’s a parallel sort of development here on the way the, the web browser works, which is a, you know, takes HTML and displays it, and there’s no bit exactness there across the different engines.
And you’re saying the encoders needed to be able to run tests and then the, the, the bit exactness—I mean, that’s a nice thing to guarantee. Like there’s a parallel sort of development here on the way the, the web browser works, which is a, you know, takes HTML and displays it, and there’s no bit exactness there across the different engines.
Kieran Kunhya
I would, I would point out actually FFmpeg is unique in the sense that it’s, it has been a winner-takes-all scenario. You have… Browsers is a good analogy because it has to parse a lot of different content and render it in a particular way, like a decoder. But there still are multiple browser engines. There’s Firefox’s one, there’s Chrome’s one, there’s a few Japanese ones that are pretty decent. That’s not been the case in multimedia in general across a wide range of codecs. FFmpeg has kind of won it all, I suppose, in a sense because of, because of the fact that you can get—every new codec added is actually worth more than the value of that codec itself because it makes the whole thing better.
I would, I would point out actually FFmpeg is unique in the sense that it’s, it has been a winner-takes-all scenario. You have… Browsers is a good analogy because it has to parse a lot of different content and render it in a particular way, like a decoder. But there still are multiple browser engines. There’s Firefox’s one, there’s Chrome’s one, there’s a few Japanese ones that are pretty decent. That’s not been the case in multimedia in general across a wide range of codecs. FFmpeg has kind of won it all, I suppose, in a sense because of, because of the fact that you can get—every new codec added is actually worth more than the value of that codec itself because it makes the whole thing better.
Lex Fridman
Man, this is really cool. Going to Perplexity. Yuriy Reznik is a multimedia and signal processing researcher, got his PhD in computer science from Kyiv University with over 150 papers and more than 80 granted US patents, contributor to major multimedia standards including H.264, MPEG-4, AVC-H.265 MPEG-4 ALS, G.718, and-
Man, this is really cool. Going to Perplexity. Yuriy Reznik is a multimedia and signal processing researcher, got his PhD in computer science from Kyiv University with over 150 papers and more than 80 granted US patents, contributor to major multimedia standards including H.264, MPEG-4, AVC-H.265 MPEG-4 ALS, G.718, and-
Kieran Kunhya
G.71 is telco stuff. Telco.
G.71 is telco stuff. Telco.
Lex Fridman
Oh. And so he was more connected to companies.
Oh. And so he was more connected to companies.
Kieran Kunhya
RealAudio, RealVideo, right? That was- … very important at that time
RealAudio, RealVideo, right? That was- … very important at that time
Lex Fridman
… Zencoder, Brightcove, Contex. This, man, I need to hang out with Yuriy. He’s legit. And he’s like one of the nicest person-
… Zencoder, Brightcove, Contex. This, man, I need to hang out with Yuriy. He’s legit. And he’s like one of the nicest person-
Kieran Kunhya
Slack guy, yeah
Slack guy, yeah
Lex Fridman
… ever, right? Like for example, for my startup that I’m doing right now called Kyber, right? I met Yuriy because I met him every year at the Mile-High Video Conference, which is in Denver. And he gave me like so many good ideas and good things. He’s like really amazing person.
… ever, right? Like for example, for my startup that I’m doing right now called Kyber, right? I met Yuriy because I met him every year at the Mile-High Video Conference, which is in Denver. And he gave me like so many good ideas and good things. He’s like really amazing person.
Kieran Kunhya
He tells us how great it is to be, you know, even know us. And then we just like, you know, you look at that and it’s—I think it’s the other way around, Yuriy.
He tells us how great it is to be, you know, even know us. And then we just like, you know, you look at that and it’s—I think it’s the other way around, Yuriy.
FFmpeg testing
Lex Fridman
That reminds me of a thing that you mentioned to me about FATE testing and, like, the insanely rigorous process that’s used to test everything that’s incorporated into FFmpeg. Can you take me through the testing process?
That reminds me of a thing that you mentioned to me about FATE testing and, like, the insanely rigorous process that’s used to test everything that’s incorporated into FFmpeg. Can you take me through the testing process?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. So FFmpeg has a system called FATE, FFmpeg Automated Testing Environment. Because FFmpeg runs on so many different OSs and can be compiled with so many different compilers, there’s been a crazy number of configurations. So you can see the absurd combination of compiler variants, operating system variants, instruction sets. You can see at the top macOS has tons of different variants because it has iOS, it has tvOS.
Yeah. So FFmpeg has a system called FATE, FFmpeg Automated Testing Environment. Because FFmpeg runs on so many different OSs and can be compiled with so many different compilers, there’s been a crazy number of configurations. So you can see the absurd combination of compiler variants, operating system variants, instruction sets. You can see at the top macOS has tons of different variants because it has iOS, it has tvOS.
Lex Fridman
Well, I’m looking at a page fate.ffmpeg.org 81 minutes ago, 76 minutes ago, looking at the different architectures, the operating systems, the different compilers, Apple Clang version-
Well, I’m looking at a page fate.ffmpeg.org 81 minutes ago, 76 minutes ago, looking at the different architectures, the operating systems, the different compilers, Apple Clang version-
Kieran Kunhya
Combinations are crazy
Combinations are crazy
Lex Fridman
… the combination is insane. RISC-
… the combination is insane. RISC-
Kieran Kunhya
So these are all run by volunteers, so these are all volunteer systems. The ones at the top, for example, the Macs I host in my office, for example, host all sorts of different stuff. Other people host other things. So it’s really there to make sure… because FFmpeg does quite complex C code, for example, you do have miscompilations. So the compiler will sometimes compile C code incorrectly. For example, this happens once in a while.
So these are all run by volunteers, so these are all volunteer systems. The ones at the top, for example, the Macs I host in my office, for example, host all sorts of different stuff. Other people host other things. So it’s really there to make sure… because FFmpeg does quite complex C code, for example, you do have miscompilations. So the compiler will sometimes compile C code incorrectly. For example, this happens once in a while.
Lex Fridman
Oh, there’s like, there’s a log of all the compilations.
Oh, there’s like, there’s a log of all the compilations.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, log of all the compilations, all the tests. I think one of the other ones will show all the tests passing.
Yeah, log of all the compilations, all the tests. I think one of the other ones will show all the tests passing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
If you click, you can see all the tests- … back. All tests successful.
If you click, you can see all the tests- … back. All tests successful.
Kieran Kunhya
In logs test, yeah. So you see all those tests are passing of all the different codecs, all the different filter transformations, all the— the level of scale is quite crazy.
In logs test, yeah. So you see all those tests are passing of all the different codecs, all the different filter transformations, all the— the level of scale is quite crazy.
Lex Fridman
Oh, that’s nuts.
Oh, that’s nuts.
Kieran Kunhya
On all the combinations. It’s not just a matrix at this point. It’s like a pivot table of different combinations.
On all the combinations. It’s not just a matrix at this point. It’s like a pivot table of different combinations.
Lex Fridman
That’s nuts.
That’s nuts.
Kieran Kunhya
And it’s a key part of what we do because you may be able to test something locally, you make a change, but actually that breaks GCC version 11 on Mac or something like that, and you’re able to then fix that. We also have miscompilation, so the C code, sometimes the compiler can have a bug in it where it creates the wrong output, and that can have quite a big effect sometimes on a video because of the way frames have dependencies. Even a small change in the output can cascade to actually quite big glitches.
And it’s a key part of what we do because you may be able to test something locally, you make a change, but actually that breaks GCC version 11 on Mac or something like that, and you’re able to then fix that. We also have miscompilation, so the C code, sometimes the compiler can have a bug in it where it creates the wrong output, and that can have quite a big effect sometimes on a video because of the way frames have dependencies. Even a small change in the output can cascade to actually quite big glitches.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You see PowerPC, you see RISC, you see ARM.
You see PowerPC, you see RISC, you see ARM.
Kieran Kunhya
There was PowerPC, there was RISC, there was weird stuff in the past like DEC Alpha. There was-
There was PowerPC, there was RISC, there was weird stuff in the past like DEC Alpha. There was-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You see Visual Studio, different versions of Clang or GCC.
You see Visual Studio, different versions of Clang or GCC.
Kieran Kunhya
Visual Studio, Intel compiler, Apple Clang, you name it.
Visual Studio, Intel compiler, Apple Clang, you name it.
Lex Fridman
What are some of the pain points? Like maybe do you have emotional triggers, maybe nightmares, about a particular operating system, a particular container, codec combination of—
What are some of the pain points? Like maybe do you have emotional triggers, maybe nightmares, about a particular operating system, a particular container, codec combination of—
Kieran Kunhya
I mean, for me, it’s really easy because I have a day job. My company builds… The company I started builds equipment for broadcasting sports matches between TV stadiums and studios, for example. We have to work with 10-bit video, and 10-bit video has a set of challenges that you can’t process 10-bit data natively on a CPU. So that means you have to stick it in 16 bits. So that means you have six wasted bits. So there’s different packing formats to actually pack the data more efficiently because when you send that over a network, you need to save that 40%. For example, on PCI Express, you may only have bus bandwidth to do that. And so I think internally we have about…
I mean, for me, it’s really easy because I have a day job. My company builds… The company I started builds equipment for broadcasting sports matches between TV stadiums and studios, for example. We have to work with 10-bit video, and 10-bit video has a set of challenges that you can’t process 10-bit data natively on a CPU. So that means you have to stick it in 16 bits. So that means you have six wasted bits. So there’s different packing formats to actually pack the data more efficiently because when you send that over a network, you need to save that 40%. For example, on PCI Express, you may only have bus bandwidth to do that. And so I think internally we have about…
Kieran Kunhya
Some are industry ones and some are internal to our own hardware that we build. We have a, I think, a 5 by 5 or 6 by 6 matrix of every single format to every single other format conversion. In fact, one of them I sent you, and they’re all written in handwritten assembly, and they all support different CPU generations. So this is really traumatic, handling all these different combinations times a million.
Some are industry ones and some are internal to our own hardware that we build. We have a, I think, a 5 by 5 or 6 by 6 matrix of every single format to every single other format conversion. In fact, one of them I sent you, and they’re all written in handwritten assembly, and they all support different CPU generations. So this is really traumatic, handling all these different combinations times a million.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
By the way, the company you’re talking about is Open Broadcast Systems.
By the way, the company you’re talking about is Open Broadcast Systems.
Assembly code (handwritten)
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, so no, no relation to the free OBS streaming service. But JB and I have started companies broadly speaking around the FFmpeg VLC ethos, so that’s really low-level work. So in most companies, this wouldn’t be written in assembly. It would be accepted that C is fast. As you can see from that, C is not fast.
Yeah, so no, no relation to the free OBS streaming service. But JB and I have started companies broadly speaking around the FFmpeg VLC ethos, so that’s really low-level work. So in most companies, this wouldn’t be written in assembly. It would be accepted that C is fast. As you can see from that, C is not fast.
Lex Fridman
So here it says 62 times faster than C.
So here it says 62 times faster than C.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. So it’s taking the ethos of doing low-level programming, real-time programming, and using that for commercial applications, and JB and I have started companies around that, in many cases hiring developers from the open source community to use that ethos. And so that’s a great example of some of the things we’re doing. In most companies, it would be, say, “Oh, I’ll write this in C and it’s fast and we’re done,” but actually you can get a lot better.
Yeah. So it’s taking the ethos of doing low-level programming, real-time programming, and using that for commercial applications, and JB and I have started companies around that, in many cases hiring developers from the open source community to use that ethos. And so that’s a great example of some of the things we’re doing. In most companies, it would be, say, “Oh, I’ll write this in C and it’s fast and we’re done,” but actually you can get a lot better.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
For me, some of the headaches we have is around some OS that are difficult to support, right? Because if you look at VLC and thanks to FATE and FFmpeg, we run on… The last version of VLC runs on Windows XP and still run there and runs on Windows 11. We work on macOS 10.7 to the latest macOS, whatever it is, right, 26. We work on iOS since iOS 9; well, we are actually iOS 26, right? We support many types of Linuxes, BSD, Solaris. The last version still runs on OS/2, right? Like there is maybe 10 users of OS/2 in the world, and one of them is maintaining VLC.
For me, some of the headaches we have is around some OS that are difficult to support, right? Because if you look at VLC and thanks to FATE and FFmpeg, we run on… The last version of VLC runs on Windows XP and still run there and runs on Windows 11. We work on macOS 10.7 to the latest macOS, whatever it is, right, 26. We work on iOS since iOS 9; well, we are actually iOS 26, right? We support many types of Linuxes, BSD, Solaris. The last version still runs on OS/2, right? Like there is maybe 10 users of OS/2 in the world, and one of them is maintaining VLC.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Then you realize that this very small team around VLC and using FFmpeg codecs and all the other ones support more OSs than Microsoft or Google or Apple, and they have infinite amount of power and resources. But for example, the worst is iOS. In order to build on iOS 9, we need to do some very clever mixing of several version of the Xcode IDE and SDK from Apple, and do a type of Frankenstein version of that so that we can still support iOS 9, which is not supported at all by the compiler of Apple in order to still run on Arm32 on iOS 9. And you’ve seen on FATE that it was still supporting iOS 9, right? So my headaches are mostly related to the support of so many OSs.
Then you realize that this very small team around VLC and using FFmpeg codecs and all the other ones support more OSs than Microsoft or Google or Apple, and they have infinite amount of power and resources. But for example, the worst is iOS. In order to build on iOS 9, we need to do some very clever mixing of several version of the Xcode IDE and SDK from Apple, and do a type of Frankenstein version of that so that we can still support iOS 9, which is not supported at all by the compiler of Apple in order to still run on Arm32 on iOS 9. And you’ve seen on FATE that it was still supporting iOS 9, right? So my headaches are mostly related to the support of so many OSs.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And it’s important because, like, we receive so many people saying, “Hey, thank you. I still have my iPad 2 to watch movies,” and it still works on iOS 9, right? And it’s also an impact of, like, not forcing people to buy new hardware when it works fine if you optimize it correctly. Which brings us to what we were saying about assembly. It’s also fighting, like, the fact that you need to buy something new nonstop while you could optimize more, which is a lost art.
And it’s important because, like, we receive so many people saying, “Hey, thank you. I still have my iPad 2 to watch movies,” and it still works on iOS 9, right? And it’s also an impact of, like, not forcing people to buy new hardware when it works fine if you optimize it correctly. Which brings us to what we were saying about assembly. It’s also fighting, like, the fact that you need to buy something new nonstop while you could optimize more, which is a lost art.
Lex Fridman
You gotta tell me about this lost art or this, uh- … the carriers of the flame of assembly. What is Assembly? Why is it beautiful? Why is it challenging? How does it work?
You gotta tell me about this lost art or this, uh- … the carriers of the flame of assembly. What is Assembly? Why is it beautiful? Why is it challenging? How does it work?
Kieran Kunhya
So when you write assembly code, you write this using the instructions the actual processor is using directly. So most of the time you would write in a language, let’s take C as a good example. The compiler would use that to create assembly language and machine code instructions for you based off your C code. And there’s a specific flavor of assembly that we use in FFmpeg that’s called SIMD, single instruction, multiple data. So this means, for example, say I want to add five to a number in scalar assembly, so this is what’s known as you work on an individual element. So I want to have a number of– I have the number ten and I want to add five. I use the add instruction, and I add five to ten, and I get 15.
So when you write assembly code, you write this using the instructions the actual processor is using directly. So most of the time you would write in a language, let’s take C as a good example. The compiler would use that to create assembly language and machine code instructions for you based off your C code. And there’s a specific flavor of assembly that we use in FFmpeg that’s called SIMD, single instruction, multiple data. So this means, for example, say I want to add five to a number in scalar assembly, so this is what’s known as you work on an individual element. So I want to have a number of– I have the number ten and I want to add five. I use the add instruction, and I add five to ten, and I get 15.
Kieran Kunhya
With SIMD, I can have a whole vector of 16 different numbers. They could all be different. If I want to add five to that, I can run one instruction, and that one instruction sums all 16 elements. And that, as you can imagine, lends itself very well to video. Video is, you know, pixel grid, so I can perform operations on multiple pixels at the same time. The key thing that we do differently in FFmpeg is we don’t use any abstractions or any major abstractions on top of that. So there’s a part of the world that uses what’s known as intrinsics. So these are C functions that behave very similarly but not quite the same to writing assembly by hand. So the registers that data is stored in on the CPU, the compiler allocates those for you.
With SIMD, I can have a whole vector of 16 different numbers. They could all be different. If I want to add five to that, I can run one instruction, and that one instruction sums all 16 elements. And that, as you can imagine, lends itself very well to video. Video is, you know, pixel grid, so I can perform operations on multiple pixels at the same time. The key thing that we do differently in FFmpeg is we don’t use any abstractions or any major abstractions on top of that. So there’s a part of the world that uses what’s known as intrinsics. So these are C functions that behave very similarly but not quite the same to writing assembly by hand. So the registers that data is stored in on the CPU, the compiler allocates those for you.
Kieran Kunhya
And so the key thing to understand when we write SIMD is we have a 10x, and not percentage, 10x to 50x speed improvement. That function is 62x—
And so the key thing to understand when we write SIMD is we have a 10x, and not percentage, 10x to 50x speed improvement. That function is 62x—
Lex Fridman
That’s nuts.
That’s nuts.
Kieran Kunhya
… on the FFmpeg account, as you know, posts and tweets a lot about that to try and say, “Hey, we are doing this stuff.”
… on the FFmpeg account, as you know, posts and tweets a lot about that to try and say, “Hey, we are doing this stuff.”
Lex Fridman
You are a person who sees the beauty in assembly, but it’s also extremely useful for these kinds of application to actually- … significantly outperform even C, which is crazy.
You are a person who sees the beauty in assembly, but it’s also extremely useful for these kinds of application to actually- … significantly outperform even C, which is crazy.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It is necessary. Right? Because, like, one of the projects that we need to talk about is called dav1d, right? So dav1d is a decoder for the format that was done by Alliance for Open Media, which is a video decoder called AV1.
It is necessary. Right? Because, like, one of the projects that we need to talk about is called dav1d, right? So dav1d is a decoder for the format that was done by Alliance for Open Media, which is a video decoder called AV1.
Lex Fridman
So if, for people who don’t know, we’ve been talking about H.264. AV1 is another hugely popular standard and codec that is increasingly taking over the internet.
So if, for people who don’t know, we’ve been talking about H.264. AV1 is another hugely popular standard and codec that is increasingly taking over the internet.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And when this format was launched many people said, especially even from the Alliance for Open Media, right, which is Google, Netflix, Amazon, Mozilla, say, “Well, this format is so complex, it must be done in hardware to do decoding,” right? And well, I arrived with a few other people, mostly Ronald, Henrik, and Martin, and we said, “We need to have an extremely good software decoder because it’s going to take time to have hardware.” And so we wrote this project, which is beyond insane. We are talking about 30,000 lines of C, but 240,000 lines of handwritten assembly, right?
And when this format was launched many people said, especially even from the Alliance for Open Media, right, which is Google, Netflix, Amazon, Mozilla, say, “Well, this format is so complex, it must be done in hardware to do decoding,” right? And well, I arrived with a few other people, mostly Ronald, Henrik, and Martin, and we said, “We need to have an extremely good software decoder because it’s going to take time to have hardware.” And so we wrote this project, which is beyond insane. We are talking about 30,000 lines of C, but 240,000 lines of handwritten assembly, right?
Lex Fridman
Handwritten assembly, 240,000 lines. That’s incredible. That means—I mean, some of the stuff we’re talking about is probably the biggest assembly code bases.
Handwritten assembly, 240,000 lines. That’s incredible. That means—I mean, some of the stuff we’re talking about is probably the biggest assembly code bases.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
To give you an idea, and Kieran can correct me, but I think the FFmpeg has 100,000 lines of assembly for all the codecs.
To give you an idea, and Kieran can correct me, but I think the FFmpeg has 100,000 lines of assembly for all the codecs.
Kieran Kunhya
For all codecs. Mm-hmm.
For all codecs. Mm-hmm.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And just this one has 240,000. It’s a VideoLAN project, of course. And it is optimized at the maximum because the motto when we’re starting the project is every cycle matters, right? Every cycle matters because dav1d is used in VLC and in some software AV1 playback stacks. We are talking about probably 3 billion devices which are going to decode video nonstop because, for example, 30% of the video from Netflix are now in AV1, 50% of YouTube, right? So, and you often don’t have a hardware decoder because not many devices have a hardware decoder. And with dav1d, we realized that with one or two cores you were able to decode 720p correctly. So it is, like, literally-
And just this one has 240,000. It’s a VideoLAN project, of course. And it is optimized at the maximum because the motto when we’re starting the project is every cycle matters, right? Every cycle matters because dav1d is used in VLC and in some software AV1 playback stacks. We are talking about probably 3 billion devices which are going to decode video nonstop because, for example, 30% of the video from Netflix are now in AV1, 50% of YouTube, right? So, and you often don’t have a hardware decoder because not many devices have a hardware decoder. And with dav1d, we realized that with one or two cores you were able to decode 720p correctly. So it is, like, literally-
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, that’s dav1d.
Yeah, that’s dav1d.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… incredible, right?
… incredible, right?
Kieran Kunhya
That’s dav1d. Look at that, Lex.
That’s dav1d. Look at that, Lex.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, so this is another spicy tweet from you. This is what peak video codec should look like, 79.9% assembly-
Yeah, so this is another spicy tweet from you. This is what peak video codec should look like, 79.9% assembly-
Kieran Kunhya
That’s almost
That’s almost
Lex Fridman
… 19.6% C and 0.5% other.
… 19.6% C and 0.5% other.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And what’s incredible is with those tweets, which are factual, people get crazy. They are unhappy, right? They say-
And what’s incredible is with those tweets, which are factual, people get crazy. They are unhappy, right? They say-
Kieran Kunhya
For a year, for the last two years they go crazy, “No, intrinsics is fine. The compiler is…” Oh, they go, “I have never-“
For a year, for the last two years they go crazy, “No, intrinsics is fine. The compiler is…” Oh, they go, “I have never-“
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
“You can optimize your compiler, auto-vectorization, it’s your fault, you don’t understand.” And we’ve tried that forever, right?
“You can optimize your compiler, auto-vectorization, it’s your fault, you don’t understand.” And we’ve tried that forever, right?
Kieran Kunhya
For two years, and two years later, showing hundreds of examples of handwritten assembly. “No, no, no, you’re doing it wrong. The compiler can do this.”
For two years, and two years later, showing hundreds of examples of handwritten assembly. “No, no, no, you’re doing it wrong. The compiler can do this.”
Lex Fridman
So we should actually just articulate a little clearer. So the intuition there from the software engineering folks, when you have code like… Okay, let’s just take an example, C++. There’s a compiler that’s doing a lot of the optimization. And the presumption is if you have a good enough compiler, if you continue to improve the compiler, you’re going to generate code- … that can perform like optimal performance. You cannot possibly beat it. And you’re consistently challenging that thought that if you do-
So we should actually just articulate a little clearer. So the intuition there from the software engineering folks, when you have code like… Okay, let’s just take an example, C++. There’s a compiler that’s doing a lot of the optimization. And the presumption is if you have a good enough compiler, if you continue to improve the compiler, you’re going to generate code- … that can perform like optimal performance. You cannot possibly beat it. And you’re consistently challenging that thought that if you do-
Kieran Kunhya
By orders of magnitude.
By orders of magnitude.
Lex Fridman
… by orders of magnitude- … handcrafted assembly can outperform C.
… by orders of magnitude- … handcrafted assembly can outperform C.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The two things that they tell us is, yeah, but modern compilers have auto-vectorization, right? Because SIMD that we’re doing is vectorization. And like it’s not even close, right? It’s not even close, right? It’s not like 5%, 10% slower. It’s multiple times slower.
The two things that they tell us is, yeah, but modern compilers have auto-vectorization, right? Because SIMD that we’re doing is vectorization. And like it’s not even close, right? It’s not even close, right? It’s not like 5%, 10% slower. It’s multiple times slower.
Lex Fridman
So can we… I don’t know if you can say something philosophically, because there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of great software engineers, great engineers, great machine learning people. Karpathy will listen to this and say, “What’s the intuition he’s supposed to get from this? What are we supposed to…”
So can we… I don’t know if you can say something philosophically, because there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of great software engineers, great engineers, great machine learning people. Karpathy will listen to this and say, “What’s the intuition he’s supposed to get from this? What are we supposed to…”
Kieran Kunhya
Karpathy learnt assembly because of the tweets, by the way. I just… He start- He went, he’s like, “Oh, I think this is a movement.”
Karpathy learnt assembly because of the tweets, by the way. I just… He start- He went, he’s like, “Oh, I think this is a movement.”
Lex Fridman
He’s like, “Let me figure out what’s happening here.”
He’s like, “Let me figure out what’s happening here.”
Kieran Kunhya
No, no, he… and you know the way he documents his work and so on.
No, no, he… and you know the way he documents his work and so on.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Philosophically, what’s important to realize is that we passed the time where hardware was going so much faster, right? We are at the end of Moore’s law. We have limitation for AI, for memory. You need to go down in the stack and optimize more to get more power from what you have, because our request for power, CPU power, GPU power are exploding while the hardware is not exploding in speed, right? So what people do is that they add more cores, right? But that’s basically like at some point you can add 250 cores, right? So what we do is to take every inch of the machine.
Philosophically, what’s important to realize is that we passed the time where hardware was going so much faster, right? We are at the end of Moore’s law. We have limitation for AI, for memory. You need to go down in the stack and optimize more to get more power from what you have, because our request for power, CPU power, GPU power are exploding while the hardware is not exploding in speed, right? So what people do is that they add more cores, right? But that’s basically like at some point you can add 250 cores, right? So what we do is to take every inch of the machine.
Kieran Kunhya
Not just that, not just that. We abuse the machine. We go and use the machine in ways that the creator didn’t expect. Sometimes we use an instruction that’s completely unrelated to what we do. We use a cryptography instruction in video processing to do nothing related.
Not just that, not just that. We abuse the machine. We go and use the machine in ways that the creator didn’t expect. Sometimes we use an instruction that’s completely unrelated to what we do. We use a cryptography instruction in video processing to do nothing related.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And one of other things that we do, for example in dav1d, which is a bit crazy, is that we don’t use the function calling convention from the operating system.
And one of other things that we do, for example in dav1d, which is a bit crazy, is that we don’t use the function calling convention from the operating system.
Kieran Kunhya
We should explain that.
We should explain that.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
That is extremely- … complex. But basically, usually when you do move from one function in code to another, there is a way to save the registry, the state of the CPU to enter another function. And this is like standard.
That is extremely- … complex. But basically, usually when you do move from one function in code to another, there is a way to save the registry, the state of the CPU to enter another function. And this is like standard.
Kieran Kunhya
It’s a bit complex. I would simplify this a bit. So, dav1d does things to abuse the calling convention. You could define the calling convention as I’ve written a function and I want to call another function. How is the data shared between the functions? Because there’s a convention, what’s known as a calling convention, and what dav1d does for optimal reasons is create its own calling convention sometimes. So if I wanna call Lex Fridman’s library, we’ve got to agree on a convention so that I can share data with you in the assembly language space. And one of the challenges in assembly is every operating s- well, not every operating system, but there are, well, at least four that I can think of on x86, Linux 32-bit, Windows 32-bit, Windows 64, Linux 64.
It’s a bit complex. I would simplify this a bit. So, dav1d does things to abuse the calling convention. You could define the calling convention as I’ve written a function and I want to call another function. How is the data shared between the functions? Because there’s a convention, what’s known as a calling convention, and what dav1d does for optimal reasons is create its own calling convention sometimes. So if I wanna call Lex Fridman’s library, we’ve got to agree on a convention so that I can share data with you in the assembly language space. And one of the challenges in assembly is every operating s- well, not every operating system, but there are, well, at least four that I can think of on x86, Linux 32-bit, Windows 32-bit, Windows 64, Linux 64.
Kieran Kunhya
They all have their own calling conventions. And so one of the amazing things Loren Merritt did, who we talked about before, was create a very lightweight abstraction layer, so you could write your assembly code once and it handled all the calling convention stuff for you, which was always a problem because you had to manage four different variants. But dav1d takes this even further, for speed reasons it does its own calling convention within itself to bypass the kind of rules, the rules of functions and say, “Okay, actually I’m gonna call a function this way because I know it’s within my library.”
They all have their own calling conventions. And so one of the amazing things Loren Merritt did, who we talked about before, was create a very lightweight abstraction layer, so you could write your assembly code once and it handled all the calling convention stuff for you, which was always a problem because you had to manage four different variants. But dav1d takes this even further, for speed reasons it does its own calling convention within itself to bypass the kind of rules, the rules of functions and say, “Okay, actually I’m gonna call a function this way because I know it’s within my library.”
Lex Fridman
Does it have to be special to every single operating system?
Does it have to be special to every single operating system?
Kieran Kunhya
Well, if it’s custom, no. But the challenge is in general, yes, and in terms of each instruction set. So the thing to also emphasize is we do this on every instruction set. So every instruction set has its own handwritten assembly, which is even more crazy. And that matrix has got bigger in recent years because of RISC-V, because of ARM64, because of the new SVE. There’s SME. x86 has AVX-512, AVX. So we do runtime processor detection. We see what the machine FFmpeg is running on or dav1d’s running on is capable of, because you could be on a laptop from 2008 where this isn’t there. Runtime detection, we set function pointers accordingly. And then from then on, off you go.
Well, if it’s custom, no. But the challenge is in general, yes, and in terms of each instruction set. So the thing to also emphasize is we do this on every instruction set. So every instruction set has its own handwritten assembly, which is even more crazy. And that matrix has got bigger in recent years because of RISC-V, because of ARM64, because of the new SVE. There’s SME. x86 has AVX-512, AVX. So we do runtime processor detection. We see what the machine FFmpeg is running on or dav1d’s running on is capable of, because you could be on a laptop from 2008 where this isn’t there. Runtime detection, we set function pointers accordingly. And then from then on, off you go.
Lex Fridman
Or you could be on a machine with RISC-V.
Or you could be on a machine with RISC-V.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. And in all that, we don’t even respect the calling convention of the operating system in order to be faster, because we know that we are going to be called from within our binary, so we can share data without saving all the registry in the common way, because that can lead to loading and saving registry on the L1 and L2 CPU and gets us faster. So that’s why I said that understanding CPU architecture, computer architecture is key. And this is also why it’s handwritten. I don’t know anyone, I’ve never heard any other project than Dav1d doing that. This is why Kieran calls it an art, right? It is an art.
Yes. And in all that, we don’t even respect the calling convention of the operating system in order to be faster, because we know that we are going to be called from within our binary, so we can share data without saving all the registry in the common way, because that can lead to loading and saving registry on the L1 and L2 CPU and gets us faster. So that’s why I said that understanding CPU architecture, computer architecture is key. And this is also why it’s handwritten. I don’t know anyone, I’ve never heard any other project than Dav1d doing that. This is why Kieran calls it an art, right? It is an art.
Kieran Kunhya
I think in a mass world, there isn’t something on billions of devices. I know there are some specialist industries. I know in high-frequency trading, they take this really seriously, where they’re receiving feeds from a market, and they need to react within X number of microseconds, and so the instructions matter. But that’s not a mass-produced thing that’s on a billion devices. That’s hyper-specialized, running on hyper-specialized hardware. We’re running on all hardware from-
I think in a mass world, there isn’t something on billions of devices. I know there are some specialist industries. I know in high-frequency trading, they take this really seriously, where they’re receiving feeds from a market, and they need to react within X number of microseconds, and so the instructions matter. But that’s not a mass-produced thing that’s on a billion devices. That’s hyper-specialized, running on hyper-specialized hardware. We’re running on all hardware from-
Lex Fridman
Sorry to linger on it, but, like, that’s a really counterintuitive, almost, like, revolutionary idea here, that there’s a huge amount of value to assembly. Like, what are we supposed to take away from that? Like, what… You know, there’s a bunch of people listening to this, they’re basically like, sorry, for myself included, you know, I programmed for many, many years in C/C++, going up the standards of C++, fell in love with C++, even meta programming and so on, and then transitioned more and more because of machine learning about 15 years ago to Python.
Sorry to linger on it, but, like, that’s a really counterintuitive, almost, like, revolutionary idea here, that there’s a huge amount of value to assembly. Like, what are we supposed to take away from that? Like, what… You know, there’s a bunch of people listening to this, they’re basically like, sorry, for myself included, you know, I programmed for many, many years in C/C++, going up the standards of C++, fell in love with C++, even meta programming and so on, and then transitioned more and more because of machine learning about 15 years ago to Python.
Lex Fridman
And so, like, for me in this Python world, JavaScript world, now vibe coding, where I’m just using natural language, sitting in my jacuzzi, drinking a drink… and just talking to the computer, like record stops. Why is the value to go back all the way down to the low level? Like, what’s the intuition?
And so, like, for me in this Python world, JavaScript world, now vibe coding, where I’m just using natural language, sitting in my jacuzzi, drinking a drink… and just talking to the computer, like record stops. Why is the value to go back all the way down to the low level? Like, what’s the intuition?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Because you can get more power per dollar invested, right? And sometimes it’s going to be a problem that is limited by your hardware. A good analogy is what you see in quantization in LLMs, right? And people are doing, “Oh, I’m going to do that in FP8 or FP4 or some crazy things like Microsoft Phi, who did it in 1.5,” because you’re constrained by memory, because you’re constrained by the machine you can run. Because at some point we are doing real time, and I believe this is going to happen on AI inference also, is that at some point you need to get faster, and you cannot always get more powerful hardware, right? So you need to analyze code and see where, like, where is the mission critical, where are the things that are called nonstops.
Because you can get more power per dollar invested, right? And sometimes it’s going to be a problem that is limited by your hardware. A good analogy is what you see in quantization in LLMs, right? And people are doing, “Oh, I’m going to do that in FP8 or FP4 or some crazy things like Microsoft Phi, who did it in 1.5,” because you’re constrained by memory, because you’re constrained by the machine you can run. Because at some point we are doing real time, and I believe this is going to happen on AI inference also, is that at some point you need to get faster, and you cannot always get more powerful hardware, right? So you need to analyze code and see where, like, where is the mission critical, where are the things that are called nonstops.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And for example, dav1d is a good example. It’s going to be run billions of hours per day. That makes sense. It doesn’t make sense to be on the glue of FFmpeg- … CLI. It makes sense over there.
And for example, dav1d is a good example. It’s going to be run billions of hours per day. That makes sense. It doesn’t make sense to be on the glue of FFmpeg- … CLI. It makes sense over there.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, and this has to do, also we’ll talk about it more, but your new effort, your new company, Kyber, is doing that kind of thing for ultra-low latency, so the slogan being, “Every millisecond counts.” And when you actually extremely highly constrained in some dimension-
Yeah, and this has to do, also we’ll talk about it more, but your new effort, your new company, Kyber, is doing that kind of thing for ultra-low latency, so the slogan being, “Every millisecond counts.” And when you actually extremely highly constrained in some dimension-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
We are also arriving at a point where we’ve done so many great things, but the hardware is getting back to us, right? Because cost is increasing, because we need more power, and so you’re limited by either your CPU, your RAM, or your networking, and you need to optimize, and this is where value is going to be. Especially because, like, doing AI is going to help do the programming of, like, business, right? And so the core thing that you will not be able to vibe code are optimization for the hardware to be as fast as is possible.
We are also arriving at a point where we’ve done so many great things, but the hardware is getting back to us, right? Because cost is increasing, because we need more power, and so you’re limited by either your CPU, your RAM, or your networking, and you need to optimize, and this is where value is going to be. Especially because, like, doing AI is going to help do the programming of, like, business, right? And so the core thing that you will not be able to vibe code are optimization for the hardware to be as fast as is possible.
Lex Fridman
I’d love to talk to you about who and how should learn assembly, but first, I think we need a bathroom break. Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now back to the episode. All right, and we’re back. There’s this nice repo with the assembly lessons. First of all, do you think developers should learn how to program in assembly, and how would you go about learning it? What is this asm-lessons?
I’d love to talk to you about who and how should learn assembly, but first, I think we need a bathroom break. Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now back to the episode. All right, and we’re back. There’s this nice repo with the assembly lessons. First of all, do you think developers should learn how to program in assembly, and how would you go about learning it? What is this asm-lessons?
Kieran Kunhya
So I personally wasn’t happy with the way assembly is taught in books and online, ’cause it’s very grammar-focused, and you don’t, in general, learn a language from learning the grammar and the structure. You learn a language by asking someone what their name is, and you start from there, and you go and solve real problems that you have when you want to communicate. You don’t learn sentence structure, and this is the interrogative and the adverb, and all the assembly books seem to be doing like that, going through every instruction, even ones that aren’t really relevant, explaining what they all do and how they… It actually doesn’t really change much.
So I personally wasn’t happy with the way assembly is taught in books and online, ’cause it’s very grammar-focused, and you don’t, in general, learn a language from learning the grammar and the structure. You learn a language by asking someone what their name is, and you start from there, and you go and solve real problems that you have when you want to communicate. You don’t learn sentence structure, and this is the interrogative and the adverb, and all the assembly books seem to be doing like that, going through every instruction, even ones that aren’t really relevant, explaining what they all do and how they… It actually doesn’t really change much.
Kieran Kunhya
So, and the other problem that we have in our community is assembly is taught sort of hand to hand, like person to person, like blacksmithing one by one. That’s the only logical sort of analogy, and that doesn’t really scale online. It doesn’t do other things. So I’ve started a set of assembly lessons in the way it’s done in FFmpeg, which is a little bit different to the way assembly in general for… I don’t know. I’m trying to think the other good big use case of assembly is in embedded devices, in really low power, cheap devices, and that’s completely different to what we’re doing here. I think it would be good if you could highlight the requirements, which are quite simple. It’s high school mathematics and C.
So, and the other problem that we have in our community is assembly is taught sort of hand to hand, like person to person, like blacksmithing one by one. That’s the only logical sort of analogy, and that doesn’t really scale online. It doesn’t do other things. So I’ve started a set of assembly lessons in the way it’s done in FFmpeg, which is a little bit different to the way assembly in general for… I don’t know. I’m trying to think the other good big use case of assembly is in embedded devices, in really low power, cheap devices, and that’s completely different to what we’re doing here. I think it would be good if you could highlight the requirements, which are quite simple. It’s high school mathematics and C.
Kieran Kunhya
And actually not even C, really, really it’s pointers. To emphasize, yes, we’ve talked about how brilliant this stuff is, but high schoolers like Daniel Kang have written assembly in FFmpeg. I think there’s been contributions because of these lessons. So it’s really about trying to get this dying art to continue, because we’ve shown it’s possible with dav1d to produce something amazing. There’s still a lot of codecs in FFmpeg that are only maybe partially assembly optimized. And so it really starts with basics and continues, explains a lot of the jargon, a lot of the syntax. It doesn’t really try and explain to you, you know, interrupt handlers and interrupt instructions and all of these different jump targets; actually makes this really vector focused.
And actually not even C, really, really it’s pointers. To emphasize, yes, we’ve talked about how brilliant this stuff is, but high schoolers like Daniel Kang have written assembly in FFmpeg. I think there’s been contributions because of these lessons. So it’s really about trying to get this dying art to continue, because we’ve shown it’s possible with dav1d to produce something amazing. There’s still a lot of codecs in FFmpeg that are only maybe partially assembly optimized. And so it really starts with basics and continues, explains a lot of the jargon, a lot of the syntax. It doesn’t really try and explain to you, you know, interrupt handlers and interrupt instructions and all of these different jump targets; actually makes this really vector focused.
Lex Fridman
And describes all kinds of registers, general purpose registers, vector registers; really nice examples. Oh, this is cool.
And describes all kinds of registers, general purpose registers, vector registers; really nice examples. Oh, this is cool.
Kieran Kunhya
It’s a classic, yeah, it’s a classic example of FFmpeg. But some of this assembly language is really beautiful, and I think it’s beautiful because it’s kind of like flying a Spitfire. It’s really aviation at its purest, but also pushing the aircraft beyond what the designer thought was possible. So we’re abusing, for example, sometimes cryptography instructions to do certain things, and there’s a level of beauty and art where it’s really you and the processor.
It’s a classic, yeah, it’s a classic example of FFmpeg. But some of this assembly language is really beautiful, and I think it’s beautiful because it’s kind of like flying a Spitfire. It’s really aviation at its purest, but also pushing the aircraft beyond what the designer thought was possible. So we’re abusing, for example, sometimes cryptography instructions to do certain things, and there’s a level of beauty and art where it’s really you and the processor.
Kieran Kunhya
There’s nothing in between. It’s you and the joystick of the cockpit, and you move that joystick, and it’s physically connected to the ailerons, and you can push that plane beyond what it can normally do, and there’s a level of, yeah, beauty and amazingness to go that. But I don’t think the sort of person-by-person assembly that is… someone taught me, and I’ve taught multiple people, is gonna work long run just because of the particular flavor and the way that we do it.
There’s nothing in between. It’s you and the joystick of the cockpit, and you move that joystick, and it’s physically connected to the ailerons, and you can push that plane beyond what it can normally do, and there’s a level of, yeah, beauty and amazingness to go that. But I don’t think the sort of person-by-person assembly that is… someone taught me, and I’ve taught multiple people, is gonna work long run just because of the particular flavor and the way that we do it.
Lex Fridman
It’s literally no, I should… I was gonna say wizards handing it down. I realize I look like a wizard- … wearing this hat. But you’re basically just like the sages, the wise sages handing- … down the craft. Can I ask you about LLMs? Like- … can they help?
It’s literally no, I should… I was gonna say wizards handing it down. I realize I look like a wizard- … wearing this hat. But you’re basically just like the sages, the wise sages handing- … down the craft. Can I ask you about LLMs? Like- … can they help?
Kieran Kunhya
They had more of an understanding than I expected, but they are still… I’ve asked it questions, and it still goes and starts not hallucinating, but making modifications, and then I go, “Is it bit exact?” “No.” “Fix it.” And then it just goes and does the same thing, and it’s going, it… There isn’t the corpus of information like Stack Overflow to work on.
They had more of an understanding than I expected, but they are still… I’ve asked it questions, and it still goes and starts not hallucinating, but making modifications, and then I go, “Is it bit exact?” “No.” “Fix it.” And then it just goes and does the same thing, and it’s going, it… There isn’t the corpus of information like Stack Overflow to work on.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There is not enough data to train on. And this is the biggest issue. I started my career actually doing some assembly for Itanium, right? So the Itanium is a dead processor type, which was done by Intel and HP a long time ago when they wanted to do 64 bits. Well, they lost, and then we got AMD, who did it, AMD64, which became x86-64. But Itanium was extremely interesting in the sense that those were processors who had a ton of computing power to do floats, FMAs, which is similar to what we need now for LLMs, right? And you could pack three operations per line that could be loaded. So basically, you had an output of basically six billion operations per second, but the memory bus only allowed 1.5, right?
There is not enough data to train on. And this is the biggest issue. I started my career actually doing some assembly for Itanium, right? So the Itanium is a dead processor type, which was done by Intel and HP a long time ago when they wanted to do 64 bits. Well, they lost, and then we got AMD, who did it, AMD64, which became x86-64. But Itanium was extremely interesting in the sense that those were processors who had a ton of computing power to do floats, FMAs, which is similar to what we need now for LLMs, right? And you could pack three operations per line that could be loaded. So basically, you had an output of basically six billion operations per second, but the memory bus only allowed 1.5, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So your CPU was four times faster, so you had to do crazy things to pack things in memory or reuse the registers, and those type of semantics, no language could do that, right? So like I have the Itanium programming book because Intel did amazing books, but that’s exactly what Kieran says. If you don’t know what you’re going to do, it’s impossible to read, right? It’s a ton of jargon and so on. While those lessons are amazing because they are targeted to a real problem, and you can do it yourself.
So your CPU was four times faster, so you had to do crazy things to pack things in memory or reuse the registers, and those type of semantics, no language could do that, right? So like I have the Itanium programming book because Intel did amazing books, but that’s exactly what Kieran says. If you don’t know what you’re going to do, it’s impossible to read, right? It’s a ton of jargon and so on. While those lessons are amazing because they are targeted to a real problem, and you can do it yourself.
Kieran Kunhya
And people have. People have. There are patches, and they said, “Oh, I studied your lessons, and here’s my first changes.”
And people have. People have. There are patches, and they said, “Oh, I studied your lessons, and here’s my first changes.”
Lex Fridman
That’s amazing.
That’s amazing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And part of that in the lessons is a framework called x86inc, written by Loren when he was working on x264, and it allows you to do more things about that to create a type of like not caring too much about different calling conventions. And we had a lot of students who gave code to x264 using that a long time ago, right? So it’s really doable, and I believe it’s necessary to understand assembly language, even if you don’t do it much, to understand what’s going on inside your computer, and that will make you a better programmer. And I assure you that because doing that, you will understand some of the architecture of the memory inside your computer, right?
And part of that in the lessons is a framework called x86inc, written by Loren when he was working on x264, and it allows you to do more things about that to create a type of like not caring too much about different calling conventions. And we had a lot of students who gave code to x264 using that a long time ago, right? So it’s really doable, and I believe it’s necessary to understand assembly language, even if you don’t do it much, to understand what’s going on inside your computer, and that will make you a better programmer. And I assure you that because doing that, you will understand some of the architecture of the memory inside your computer, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Understanding registers, L1, L2, L3, RAM, SSDs, disk, and so on, which are very important because then you have a good programming culture that will make you a better programmer.
Understanding registers, L1, L2, L3, RAM, SSDs, disk, and so on, which are very important because then you have a good programming culture that will make you a better programmer.
Rust programming language
Lex Fridman
What do you think about the Rust programming language? ‘Cause that’s a bit of a meme.
What do you think about the Rust programming language? ‘Cause that’s a bit of a meme.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
We have very different opinions with Kieran.
We have very different opinions with Kieran.
Kieran Kunhya
I think it’s valuable what they’re doing in terms of memory safety as a concept.
I think it’s valuable what they’re doing in terms of memory safety as a concept.
Lex Fridman
Can it achieve some of the speed up that assembly achieves?
Can it achieve some of the speed up that assembly achieves?
Kieran Kunhya
Oh, not assembly by hand, no. I think that that’s a given. C potentially, but I see it very… It has a very big Esperanto vibe about it. It’s like we’re gonna solve this, and we’re doing this in a particular way.
Oh, not assembly by hand, no. I think that that’s a given. C potentially, but I see it very… It has a very big Esperanto vibe about it. It’s like we’re gonna solve this, and we’re doing this in a particular way.
Lex Fridman
Meaning it’s a bit too utopian?
Meaning it’s a bit too utopian?
Kieran Kunhya
There’s a lot of focus on the self-importance rather than solving real-world problems. It reminds me of the Sinclair C5. Sir Clive Sinclair of Sinclair Computers built a car, and he said, “Oh, everyone will be traveling around in one of these electric cars.” And it was… Rust reminds me of that, where I think the community doesn’t quite understand that in order to get people to move, you have to build something that’s as good as, if not better than what you have now. Yes, people are doing Rust rewrites, but if they only do 85, 90% of the feature set of what we need, like things like coreutils, that last 1% takes 99% of the time.
There’s a lot of focus on the self-importance rather than solving real-world problems. It reminds me of the Sinclair C5. Sir Clive Sinclair of Sinclair Computers built a car, and he said, “Oh, everyone will be traveling around in one of these electric cars.” And it was… Rust reminds me of that, where I think the community doesn’t quite understand that in order to get people to move, you have to build something that’s as good as, if not better than what you have now. Yes, people are doing Rust rewrites, but if they only do 85, 90% of the feature set of what we need, like things like coreutils, that last 1% takes 99% of the time.
Kieran Kunhya
To use Elon’s famous quote, “Prototypes are easy.” Like this kind of stuff is easy. But this, to get a real electric car, you have to make a car as good as, if not better than what we have now, and Rust isn’t in that stage yet. I think we’d– I don’t think anyone would object to seeing Rust code in FFmpeg, but it needs to work as well and support the same unit testing as everything else. It needs to be flawless. It can’t just randomly break. They can’t just randomly break ABI when they want to. It needs to have, I think, more– I think it still has only one compiler implementation. So it’s got to be as good as, if not better, and saying, “Hey, here’s my utopia of memory safety,” isn’t enough, even though we probably all agree that that’s the goal.
To use Elon’s famous quote, “Prototypes are easy.” Like this kind of stuff is easy. But this, to get a real electric car, you have to make a car as good as, if not better than what we have now, and Rust isn’t in that stage yet. I think we’d– I don’t think anyone would object to seeing Rust code in FFmpeg, but it needs to work as well and support the same unit testing as everything else. It needs to be flawless. It can’t just randomly break. They can’t just randomly break ABI when they want to. It needs to have, I think, more– I think it still has only one compiler implementation. So it’s got to be as good as, if not better, and saying, “Hey, here’s my utopia of memory safety,” isn’t enough, even though we probably all agree that that’s the goal.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So I’ve done a ton of Rust, and the two major topics I had was adding Rust modules inside VLC. One of the reasons VLC got popular and which was one of the main architectural decision, is that VLC is a very small core and a ton of modules, right? And so you can write modules in C, in C++, in Objective-C, and anything that is basically interoperable with C. And so we did some Rust modules, and so I have experience on that, and I wrote some of it. And also, like, my new startup called Kyber, is an open source project mainly done in Rust. What Rust is extremely good in, in the sense that it’s a better C++ that cares about memory and allows you to do things about memory ownership that no one else can do so far.
So I’ve done a ton of Rust, and the two major topics I had was adding Rust modules inside VLC. One of the reasons VLC got popular and which was one of the main architectural decision, is that VLC is a very small core and a ton of modules, right? And so you can write modules in C, in C++, in Objective-C, and anything that is basically interoperable with C. And so we did some Rust modules, and so I have experience on that, and I wrote some of it. And also, like, my new startup called Kyber, is an open source project mainly done in Rust. What Rust is extremely good in, in the sense that it’s a better C++ that cares about memory and allows you to do things about memory ownership that no one else can do so far.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
However, it’s great when you start a new project from scratch, and you do everything in Rust. But it’s very not good when you interop with existing part. And some part of the Rust community believes that they need to rewrite everything, and everything will be better with Rust. And the answer is like, no. Like, I’m almost always, in all my years of being engineer, manager, CTO of startup and so on, don’t rewrite, right?
However, it’s great when you start a new project from scratch, and you do everything in Rust. But it’s very not good when you interop with existing part. And some part of the Rust community believes that they need to rewrite everything, and everything will be better with Rust. And the answer is like, no. Like, I’m almost always, in all my years of being engineer, manager, CTO of startup and so on, don’t rewrite, right?
Lex Fridman
Is that– That’s the, that’s the initial instinct for a lot of people when they show up to a code base, probably before LLMs, is like… probably because they don’t understand the, the, the wisdom of the way things have been done in the past. They say, “Well, we need to rewrite it.” Hence why there’s a thousand JavaScript frameworks.
Is that– That’s the, that’s the initial instinct for a lot of people when they show up to a code base, probably before LLMs, is like… probably because they don’t understand the, the, the wisdom of the way things have been done in the past. They say, “Well, we need to rewrite it.” Hence why there’s a thousand JavaScript frameworks.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But the reason is the following, and this is very important to understand. It is an order of magnitude easier to write code than read code. And you see that also with LLM. They can write code, but analyzing is a lot- … more difficult. And so when you arrive to a very complex piece of code, right? You don’t understand it, right? Because it’s so much more effort to understand the code from someone else because you don’t have the thought process. And often I joke about some languages, mostly Perl for example, which has very complex syntax. And imagine I am at my maximum intellectual efficiency in programming, right? And I write the best code ever. I will not be able to understand it myself six months later, right?
But the reason is the following, and this is very important to understand. It is an order of magnitude easier to write code than read code. And you see that also with LLM. They can write code, but analyzing is a lot- … more difficult. And so when you arrive to a very complex piece of code, right? You don’t understand it, right? Because it’s so much more effort to understand the code from someone else because you don’t have the thought process. And often I joke about some languages, mostly Perl for example, which has very complex syntax. And imagine I am at my maximum intellectual efficiency in programming, right? And I write the best code ever. I will not be able to understand it myself six months later, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Because reading code is more difficult. So very often you arrive, you don’t understand all the wisdom, all the business logic, the reasons that were done that is maybe not documented. And you say, “Well, I’m going to write it.” And the thing is, no, you don’t, right? Because that’s, as Kieran said, right? I’m going to rewrite coreutils in Rust. And then, of course, you arrive very quickly at eighty percent then ninety percent, takes a bit more time, and then you got the last ones, right? On the other side, right? So for new projects, it’s great. Everything related to parsing files networking because of the memory checker, boundary checker, it’s amazing, and there is nothing else.
Because reading code is more difficult. So very often you arrive, you don’t understand all the wisdom, all the business logic, the reasons that were done that is maybe not documented. And you say, “Well, I’m going to write it.” And the thing is, no, you don’t, right? Because that’s, as Kieran said, right? I’m going to rewrite coreutils in Rust. And then, of course, you arrive very quickly at eighty percent then ninety percent, takes a bit more time, and then you got the last ones, right? On the other side, right? So for new projects, it’s great. Everything related to parsing files networking because of the memory checker, boundary checker, it’s amazing, and there is nothing else.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
To answer a bit differently for us, imagine I take a piece of software like dav1d or x264, right? Which has a ton of runtime in assembly, right? I rewrite the C part in Rust, right? So it’s more secure. Yes. But then you arrive into the assembly, and you can jump anywhere in the memory because we are doing handwritten assembly. So even if I rewrite the C part in Rust, for security reason, you break all the security when you write handwritten assembly because we can jump anywhere. So in my opinion, we need to do something that is secure assembly, right?
To answer a bit differently for us, imagine I take a piece of software like dav1d or x264, right? Which has a ton of runtime in assembly, right? I rewrite the C part in Rust, right? So it’s more secure. Yes. But then you arrive into the assembly, and you can jump anywhere in the memory because we are doing handwritten assembly. So even if I rewrite the C part in Rust, for security reason, you break all the security when you write handwritten assembly because we can jump anywhere. So in my opinion, we need to do something that is secure assembly, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So which is compile time, check the assembly, which is similar to the checkasm projects that we’re doing on dav1d and x264 with VideoLAN, is to start instrumenting your assembly at compile time to check that it’s not jumping anywhere in the memory. Because else you might rewrite a part of C in Rust, but if you want to have the same performances, you’re going to have inline assembly, and so you destroy your whole security model. So that’s a bit what I think about Rust.
So which is compile time, check the assembly, which is similar to the checkasm projects that we’re doing on dav1d and x264 with VideoLAN, is to start instrumenting your assembly at compile time to check that it’s not jumping anywhere in the memory. Because else you might rewrite a part of C in Rust, but if you want to have the same performances, you’re going to have inline assembly, and so you destroy your whole security model. So that’s a bit what I think about Rust.
Kieran Kunhya
No, I just wanna… I would say on a personal level, I’m so in awe about assembly. I actually— Once in a… It never gets old, the speed improvements to show sixty-two x. So there are months, on a personal level, I run our internal test suite at work and just see I’m still in awe at the gains we have.
No, I just wanna… I would say on a personal level, I’m so in awe about assembly. I actually— Once in a… It never gets old, the speed improvements to show sixty-two x. So there are months, on a personal level, I run our internal test suite at work and just see I’m still in awe at the gains we have.
Lex Fridman
Well, there’s a source of joy and happiness with programming for different reasons. But I think one of the greatest happiness is in the optimization of code. And it sounds like you’re, like, at the cutting edge of that.
Well, there’s a source of joy and happiness with programming for different reasons. But I think one of the greatest happiness is in the optimization of code. And it sounds like you’re, like, at the cutting edge of that.
Kieran Kunhya
I was like, “Whoa, that was cool.”
I was like, “Whoa, that was cool.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And in the community, I want to speak about two people who are wizards of assembly, right? The two of them are actually working living in north of Europe, Sweden and Finland. And Henrik Gramner knows so much about Intel x86 assembly that when we ask questions at Intel about things, they tell, like, “Why are you asking us, Intel? You have Henrik. Henrik knows better.” He knows all the cycles of almost all the SIMD instruction by all the CPU generation. “Oh, yes, this is a P4, this is a Nehalem, this is a Core 2,” et cetera. That person is, like, the best person on assembly in the world.
And in the community, I want to speak about two people who are wizards of assembly, right? The two of them are actually working living in north of Europe, Sweden and Finland. And Henrik Gramner knows so much about Intel x86 assembly that when we ask questions at Intel about things, they tell, like, “Why are you asking us, Intel? You have Henrik. Henrik knows better.” He knows all the cycles of almost all the SIMD instruction by all the CPU generation. “Oh, yes, this is a P4, this is a Nehalem, this is a Core 2,” et cetera. That person is, like, the best person on assembly in the world.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And he’s the nicest person that you’ve seen, like, very g- He arrives, you don’t see he’s amazing. And the other one is called Martin, Martin Storsjö, and he’s– they’re doing mostly the same on Arm, right? So Neon, right? And iPhones and Androids and so on. And he codes in assembly on his phone, editing it with the crappy keyboard, like virtual keyboard you have while watching his kids play in the playground, right? Like, this is just like wizard level. So those two people are like-
And he’s the nicest person that you’ve seen, like, very g- He arrives, you don’t see he’s amazing. And the other one is called Martin, Martin Storsjö, and he’s– they’re doing mostly the same on Arm, right? So Neon, right? And iPhones and Androids and so on. And he codes in assembly on his phone, editing it with the crappy keyboard, like virtual keyboard you have while watching his kids play in the playground, right? Like, this is just like wizard level. So those two people are like-
Lex Fridman
Yes. So a part, when you’re programming assembly at that high level, a part of that is knowing the architecture that you’re programming on. So x86 and-
Yes. So a part, when you’re programming assembly at that high level, a part of that is knowing the architecture that you’re programming on. So x86 and-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
On Arm in particular, yes.
On Arm in particular, yes.
Lex Fridman
… Arm in particular. But x86, I mean, these are complicated architectures, right?
… Arm in particular. But x86, I mean, these are complicated architectures, right?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. But Arm in some ways is more com… x86 with out of order execution is not so bad. Arm, you really need to understand all the different generations of Arm processor because they’re all different. There’s A72, … … Et cetera, et cetera. And there’s the Apple variant, there’s this variant, there’s that, and you need to write code that works efficiently on all of them. x86, well, broadly speaking, you have Intel, AMD, and you have sub-variants, but generally speaking, there’s… Something fast is gonna remain fast on all of the variants, whereas in Arm it’s a completely much more complicated ballgame.
Yeah. But Arm in some ways is more com… x86 with out of order execution is not so bad. Arm, you really need to understand all the different generations of Arm processor because they’re all different. There’s A72, … … Et cetera, et cetera. And there’s the Apple variant, there’s this variant, there’s that, and you need to write code that works efficiently on all of them. x86, well, broadly speaking, you have Intel, AMD, and you have sub-variants, but generally speaking, there’s… Something fast is gonna remain fast on all of the variants, whereas in Arm it’s a completely much more complicated ballgame.
FFmpeg and Libav fork
Lex Fridman
We’re taking a nonlinear journey through history here, but we’re talking about Michael Niedermayer. And I wanted to ask about this. For a time there was a split in FFmpeg and Libav.
We’re taking a nonlinear journey through history here, but we’re talking about Michael Niedermayer. And I wanted to ask about this. For a time there was a split in FFmpeg and Libav.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. So in open source projects sometimes you disagree, right?
Yes. So in open source projects sometimes you disagree, right?
Lex Fridman
You have such a nice way of putting it, yeah.
You have such a nice way of putting it, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And the good thing is because of the license, you’re allowed to basically do your own, right? And this is normal, and this has happened all the time, right? At a point there was a GCC at the time of GCC 2 and EGCS which became then GCC 3, right? There is what we told KHTML with WebKit, with Blink. It is a same process. And also, like when I want to do a new feature today in VLC, I fork, I do my thing on my own, and then I merge back to the community. So there was a split in the open source community on FFmpeg, which become Libav and FFmpeg. And after a few years, well, the community merged back and people moved on. It’s a bit of drama that is normal in open source community, but forks are even… They’re important because they change the status quo of a community.
And the good thing is because of the license, you’re allowed to basically do your own, right? And this is normal, and this has happened all the time, right? At a point there was a GCC at the time of GCC 2 and EGCS which became then GCC 3, right? There is what we told KHTML with WebKit, with Blink. It is a same process. And also, like when I want to do a new feature today in VLC, I fork, I do my thing on my own, and then I merge back to the community. So there was a split in the open source community on FFmpeg, which become Libav and FFmpeg. And after a few years, well, the community merged back and people moved on. It’s a bit of drama that is normal in open source community, but forks are even… They’re important because they change the status quo of a community.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Not talking about FFmpeg and Libav here, but the GCC fork made GCC a ton better because some people wanted to change the architecture fundamentally to make it faster. And of course, it’s always question of people and so on, but in the end you realize that FFmpeg today is better than it was before the fork. And now, well, we’re back all together, right? And I spent a lot of time—and Kieran can say—in the community. It’s not often, to be honest, very well explained because a ton of the reasons are not very public. But I think that’s, that’s normal and that’s good.
Not talking about FFmpeg and Libav here, but the GCC fork made GCC a ton better because some people wanted to change the architecture fundamentally to make it faster. And of course, it’s always question of people and so on, but in the end you realize that FFmpeg today is better than it was before the fork. And now, well, we’re back all together, right? And I spent a lot of time—and Kieran can say—in the community. It’s not often, to be honest, very well explained because a ton of the reasons are not very public. But I think that’s, that’s normal and that’s good.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. I mean, you’re making it sound really nice, but there, there is battle, there’s pretty heated battles inside open source projects. I mean, it is a very passionate community and you’re kind of in a distributed way have to define the direction of things.
Yeah. I mean, you’re making it sound really nice, but there, there is battle, there’s pretty heated battles inside open source projects. I mean, it is a very passionate community and you’re kind of in a distributed way have to define the direction of things.
Lex Fridman
So here looking at Perplexity, “FFmpeg and Libav split in 2011 mainly over project governance, leadership style, and development processes, not because of a fundamental technical disagreement. FFmpeg effectively absorbed Libav’s work while Libav withered and most distributions and developers moved back to FFmpeg.” Yeah, that was a weird experience ’cause, you know, I’m a Linux user, so, you know, whether it’s Ubuntu and so on, all of a sudden, I think for a little bit, Ubuntu, I feel like, am I remembering correctly, switched to Libav and-
So here looking at Perplexity, “FFmpeg and Libav split in 2011 mainly over project governance, leadership style, and development processes, not because of a fundamental technical disagreement. FFmpeg effectively absorbed Libav’s work while Libav withered and most distributions and developers moved back to FFmpeg.” Yeah, that was a weird experience ’cause, you know, I’m a Linux user, so, you know, whether it’s Ubuntu and so on, all of a sudden, I think for a little bit, Ubuntu, I feel like, am I remembering correctly, switched to Libav and-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
12, 14, something like that. Yes. Something like that.
12, 14, something like that. Yes. Something like that.
Lex Fridman
And then they switched back to FFmpeg.
And then they switched back to FFmpeg.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
They switched back, yeah.
They switched back, yeah.
Lex Fridman
I was like, “What is happening?” So on the sort of… you get to feel the ripple effects of the different internal debates that are happening.
I was like, “What is happening?” So on the sort of… you get to feel the ripple effects of the different internal debates that are happening.
Kieran Kunhya
To be fair, on Apple, when you type GCC, you get Clang. Like they, they did something like that as well, so.
To be fair, on Apple, when you type GCC, you get Clang. Like they, they did something like that as well, so.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. So to me it’s like the fork was like heated drama, but most of the development from Libav was merged back into FFmpeg, right? So de facto FFmpeg got a superset around Libav, and so that gave the user, because in the end we work for the users, a larger set of features and a ton of things that were discussed. For example, the debate on reviews, on how we push, are something that now is completely settled in FFmpeg and is following what mostly what everyone in the community agrees, right? So de facto, everyone who was active on Libav came back and worked on FFmpeg because the disagreements were fixed, and in the end, FFmpeg is stronger than it was before, right? And- … I know people love drama, but-
Yeah. So to me it’s like the fork was like heated drama, but most of the development from Libav was merged back into FFmpeg, right? So de facto FFmpeg got a superset around Libav, and so that gave the user, because in the end we work for the users, a larger set of features and a ton of things that were discussed. For example, the debate on reviews, on how we push, are something that now is completely settled in FFmpeg and is following what mostly what everyone in the community agrees, right? So de facto, everyone who was active on Libav came back and worked on FFmpeg because the disagreements were fixed, and in the end, FFmpeg is stronger than it was before, right? And- … I know people love drama, but-
Lex Fridman
Well, my main concern, I understand, and I think looking at the long history, it’s all for the good. But I do… I am concerned because there’s so few humans that are critical to the success of open source projects that I have seen it be a psychological toll on folks and, you know, sometimes leads to burnout. So you have these incredible people that are at the core of open source projects. There is a moment that happens ’cause, like, what is the motivation of doing it? Ultimately, it’s because you’re passionate about it and it makes you happy. Then at a certain point, you wake up and it’s like, “This has been a bit too much heat from the drama.” So, like, at the project level, the project continues and often flourishes. But sometimes there’s these individual humans that are just like-
Well, my main concern, I understand, and I think looking at the long history, it’s all for the good. But I do… I am concerned because there’s so few humans that are critical to the success of open source projects that I have seen it be a psychological toll on folks and, you know, sometimes leads to burnout. So you have these incredible people that are at the core of open source projects. There is a moment that happens ’cause, like, what is the motivation of doing it? Ultimately, it’s because you’re passionate about it and it makes you happy. Then at a certain point, you wake up and it’s like, “This has been a bit too much heat from the drama.” So, like, at the project level, the project continues and often flourishes. But sometimes there’s these individual humans that are just like-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But-
But-
Lex Fridman
… I’ve had enough.
… I’ve had enough.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, but it’s not just about forks, right? So it’s a very- … what you are referring to is one of the most challenging and most interesting part of open source today is maintainers burnout, right? And AI is a problem because of that. And Daniel Stenberg, who is the maintainer of curl, who’s probably one of the best promoters of open source in the world—he’s, by the way, a member of the European Open Source Academy with me, so I’m very, like, humbled to be in the same community as him, right? He’s against what he calls AI slop, right? Because it gives a ton of fake reports or- … bad reports, bad patches, and then a lot of maintainers have a lot of burden to maintain the software. And this is straining the mind of open source developers much more than forks.
Yeah, but it’s not just about forks, right? So it’s a very- … what you are referring to is one of the most challenging and most interesting part of open source today is maintainers burnout, right? And AI is a problem because of that. And Daniel Stenberg, who is the maintainer of curl, who’s probably one of the best promoters of open source in the world—he’s, by the way, a member of the European Open Source Academy with me, so I’m very, like, humbled to be in the same community as him, right? He’s against what he calls AI slop, right? Because it gives a ton of fake reports or- … bad reports, bad patches, and then a lot of maintainers have a lot of burden to maintain the software. And this is straining the mind of open source developers much more than forks.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And for example, the XZ fiasco was because there was one guy maintaining it, and he got basically hammered by two attackers who were asking him questions nonstop at weird times at night to block him, and at some point he got fed up and said, “Okay, I can’t do that,” and gave the commit access to the attacker. So burnout in the open source community is something that exists, but mostly it’s about maintaining things, right?
And for example, the XZ fiasco was because there was one guy maintaining it, and he got basically hammered by two attackers who were asking him questions nonstop at weird times at night to block him, and at some point he got fed up and said, “Okay, I can’t do that,” and gave the commit access to the attacker. So burnout in the open source community is something that exists, but mostly it’s about maintaining things, right?
Lex Fridman
No, for sure. But I wonder how do we help that, ’cause those people are so important.
No, for sure. But I wonder how do we help that, ’cause those people are so important.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Mm
Mm
Lex Fridman
… the human beings are so important to the core of these pro- projects.
… the human beings are so important to the core of these pro- projects.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So, so for example, now I am maintaining a ton of multimedia and non-multimedia libraries- …as maintainer because the maintainers got fed up, right? Some on VideoLAN, some outside of VideoLAN, because it’s… sometimes you need tough skin, right? Because you get, like, it’s not really attacks, but “oh, this is not working, this is not working,” and you feel it personally. And this is also why resources or the Google fiasco was a problem, right? They don’t realize that in the end you have, you know, it’s like the same graph where you see, like, everything and it’s just like one random open source project that is maintaining the whole—
So, so for example, now I am maintaining a ton of multimedia and non-multimedia libraries- …as maintainer because the maintainers got fed up, right? Some on VideoLAN, some outside of VideoLAN, because it’s… sometimes you need tough skin, right? Because you get, like, it’s not really attacks, but “oh, this is not working, this is not working,” and you feel it personally. And this is also why resources or the Google fiasco was a problem, right? They don’t realize that in the end you have, you know, it’s like the same graph where you see, like, everything and it’s just like one random open source project that is maintaining the whole—
Lex Fridman
The Nebraska thing, yeah
The Nebraska thing, yeah
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… internet. You see the one, right? The-
… internet. You see the one, right? The-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, this is the meme. I mean, it applies to, to a lot of open source projects.
Yeah, this is the meme. I mean, it applies to, to a lot of open source projects.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So many things, yeah.
So many things, yeah.
Lex Fridman
But this is the all modern digital multimedia infrastructure, and then that thing at the very bottom that everything relies on is FFmpeg. It’s true. And then there’s usually, you know, a handful of folks that are maintaining that.
But this is the all modern digital multimedia infrastructure, and then that thing at the very bottom that everything relies on is FFmpeg. It’s true. And then there’s usually, you know, a handful of folks that are maintaining that.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And FFmpeg or VLC, right, you have a community of 10, 15 core developers, are not the worst open source project. XZ, which is even in more installations, is one person, right? There is one guy-
And FFmpeg or VLC, right, you have a community of 10, 15 core developers, are not the worst open source project. XZ, which is even in more installations, is one person, right? There is one guy-
Lex Fridman
LibXML is-
LibXML is-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, LibXML, right? There was a big stop. No one is maintaining- … LibXML anymore, which is like the only library that is able to parse XML everywhere.
Yeah, LibXML, right? There was a big stop. No one is maintaining- … LibXML anymore, which is like the only library that is able to parse XML everywhere.
Lex Fridman
All the crazy edge cases of XML under ridiculous circumstances, and they get attacked by security researchers because there’s one other crazy edge case that they haven’t thought of, and it’s like, yeah, but the body of knowledge to actually resolve that is massive.
All the crazy edge cases of XML under ridiculous circumstances, and they get attacked by security researchers because there’s one other crazy edge case that they haven’t thought of, and it’s like, yeah, but the body of knowledge to actually resolve that is massive.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There is one guy maintaining all the time zones for everyone who is in the middle of, I think, was it Nebraska or-
There is one guy maintaining all the time zones for everyone who is in the middle of, I think, was it Nebraska or-
Open source burnout
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it could be, yeah.
Yeah, it could be, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… South Dakota? Like, the mental health of the open source maintainers is something that large corporations don’t care or don’t see, right? It’s just like, “Oh, yeah, I’m just doing an open source report,” and so on.
… South Dakota? Like, the mental health of the open source maintainers is something that large corporations don’t care or don’t see, right? It’s just like, “Oh, yeah, I’m just doing an open source report,” and so on.
Lex Fridman
Mm. Some of it is financial, but people should definitely support open source financially- … all, all across the board. But some of it is also, like, spiritual on a basic human level. There’s something that happens, like, with this image of F- FFmpeg and so much of the internet depending on it, where people almost, like, talk down to the folks who are carrying these projects forward and maintaining it.
Mm. Some of it is financial, but people should definitely support open source financially- … all, all across the board. But some of it is also, like, spiritual on a basic human level. There’s something that happens, like, with this image of F- FFmpeg and so much of the internet depending on it, where people almost, like, talk down to the folks who are carrying these projects forward and maintaining it.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
In the security community, they certainly did. That was one of the things I think that argument came out is there was a portion of the security community who’s like, “No, these guys write crap code. They need to fix their crap code.” I’m like, “No, no, no, no. This is a guy’s hobby project. You have a security bot that’s gone and found some AI-generated stuff. That guy didn’t write crap code.” It’s just an edge case to the 99.99999 percentile he didn’t think about because it’s his hobby project decoding Star Wars games.”
In the security community, they certainly did. That was one of the things I think that argument came out is there was a portion of the security community who’s like, “No, these guys write crap code. They need to fix their crap code.” I’m like, “No, no, no, no. This is a guy’s hobby project. You have a security bot that’s gone and found some AI-generated stuff. That guy didn’t write crap code.” It’s just an edge case to the 99.99999 percentile he didn’t think about because it’s his hobby project decoding Star Wars games.”
Lex Fridman
Forget the hobby project aspect of it. It’s just hard work, and it’s beautiful, and it’s like the right approach there is to celebrate people- … for doing incredible, incredible work. It’s, it’s just incredible that humans step up- … not getting really paid at first or maybe ever, and then they’re doing it out of the love of it, and we need to, like, human civilization runs on people like that. We need to celebrate them.
Forget the hobby project aspect of it. It’s just hard work, and it’s beautiful, and it’s like the right approach there is to celebrate people- … for doing incredible, incredible work. It’s, it’s just incredible that humans step up- … not getting really paid at first or maybe ever, and then they’re doing it out of the love of it, and we need to, like, human civilization runs on people like that. We need to celebrate them.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
To give you an idea, I received death threats on VideoLAN, right? And, um-
To give you an idea, I received death threats on VideoLAN, right? And, um-
Lex Fridman
You mentioned that to me. Like, what, what is, what is behind that?
You mentioned that to me. Like, what, what is, what is behind that?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So that must be, what, 2009, 2010, right? Um, Apple is moving from PowerPC to Core Duo, um, that probably in 2006, and by 2009 or 2010, I decide that we are not going to do new versions of VLC for PowerPC. At that time, like VLC, we were close to the number 1.0 release. We were four of us, right? Like, just like, “No, this is not possible.” So I receive a death threat with some powder in it, right? It– Remember there was some- … anthrax threats-
So that must be, what, 2009, 2010, right? Um, Apple is moving from PowerPC to Core Duo, um, that probably in 2006, and by 2009 or 2010, I decide that we are not going to do new versions of VLC for PowerPC. At that time, like VLC, we were close to the number 1.0 release. We were four of us, right? Like, just like, “No, this is not possible.” So I receive a death threat with some powder in it, right? It– Remember there was some- … anthrax threats-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… at that time, right? And it was because I had taken the decision to not maintain the PowerPC port anymore. And of course, it wasn’t anthrax, of course. It was some type of flour and so on. But I received that as a, with a letter of like, “You, you piece of shit, you should die, PowerPC forever,” and so on. And it was 2009 or 2010, right? I was young. I was just like, “Why? What did I do?”, right?
… at that time, right? And it was because I had taken the decision to not maintain the PowerPC port anymore. And of course, it wasn’t anthrax, of course. It was some type of flour and so on. But I received that as a, with a letter of like, “You, you piece of shit, you should die, PowerPC forever,” and so on. And it was 2009 or 2010, right? I was young. I was just like, “Why? What did I do?”, right?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, that can break your spirit. It’s like, why-
Yeah, that can break your spirit. It’s like, why-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
My mother freaked out, right? We had to go to see the police and so on. And now, like, I’m going to say that I’m quite happy that this happened at that time. It forged me a lot, right? I am… I can see, I can take a lot of hate on me. I’m okay with it, right?
My mother freaked out, right? We had to go to see the police and so on. And now, like, I’m going to say that I’m quite happy that this happened at that time. It forged me a lot, right? I am… I can see, I can take a lot of hate on me. I’m okay with it, right?
Lex Fridman
It sucks that that’s part of reality, ’cause all the people that love VLC, all the people that love FFmpeg, like me, you know, I, I legitimately hundred- probably thousands of times in my life had a smile on my face because FFmpeg made me happy, period. And how many times did I get a chance to say that? Zero. Until I realized there’s a Twitter account, and every once in a while I’m, like, messaging it.
It sucks that that’s part of reality, ’cause all the people that love VLC, all the people that love FFmpeg, like me, you know, I, I legitimately hundred- probably thousands of times in my life had a smile on my face because FFmpeg made me happy, period. And how many times did I get a chance to say that? Zero. Until I realized there’s a Twitter account, and every once in a while I’m, like, messaging it.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
One of the things I like on the Reddit meme about me, which I don’t like this meme for a lot of reasons, but… And someone says, “Oh, JB is on Reddit,” which I am, right? And I say, and say hello, right? And then I got so many people who say, “Oh, thank you for VLC.” And, like, I take pictures, and then I share that to the Signal, to IRC. Yes, we use IRC on different-
One of the things I like on the Reddit meme about me, which I don’t like this meme for a lot of reasons, but… And someone says, “Oh, JB is on Reddit,” which I am, right? And I say, and say hello, right? And then I got so many people who say, “Oh, thank you for VLC.” And, like, I take pictures, and then I share that to the Signal, to IRC. Yes, we use IRC on different-
Lex Fridman
I saw as a quick tangent, you mentioned IRC is like Slack for old people. So you still use IRC?
I saw as a quick tangent, you mentioned IRC is like Slack for old people. So you still use IRC?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Of course.
Of course.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. I have it on my phone as well.
Yeah. I have it on my phone as well.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Of course.
Of course.
Kieran Kunhya
Every day.
Every day.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Works fine.
Works fine.
Lex Fridman
Wow. It works fine, huh?
Wow. It works fine, huh?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Works fine, yes.
Works fine, yes.
Lex Fridman
You have to power with a crank, I guess.
You have to power with a crank, I guess.
Kieran Kunhya
No, but there’s no-
No, but there’s no-
Lex Fridman
There’s AOL. There’s AOL as your social media.
There’s AOL. There’s AOL as your social media.
Kieran Kunhya
There’s no ads, there’s no tracking, there’s nothing. Like, it’s-
There’s no ads, there’s no tracking, there’s nothing. Like, it’s-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The biggest issue, to be honest, compared to Slack is that it doesn’t have threads. That’s annoying. It doesn’t have emojis for reaction. Sometimes it would be nice.
The biggest issue, to be honest, compared to Slack is that it doesn’t have threads. That’s annoying. It doesn’t have emojis for reaction. Sometimes it would be nice.
Kieran Kunhya
I, IRCv3 has.
I, IRCv3 has.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, V3, but no one does it, and you cannot edit your messages. Right? And the rest, it works perfectly fine forever.
Yes, V3, but no one does it, and you cannot edit your messages. Right? And the rest, it works perfectly fine forever.
Lex Fridman
But how do you communicate without emojis?
But how do you communicate without emojis?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Well, that’s why I said it’s for old people.
Well, that’s why I said it’s for old people.
Lex Fridman
Old people. All right.
Old people. All right.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And we do, we do emojis with like- … you know, the colons and dash and-
And we do, we do emojis with like- … you know, the colons and dash and-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… parentheses, right? So.
… parentheses, right? So.
Lex Fridman
Old school. So anyway, you communicate on IRC. What were you even talking about?
Old school. So anyway, you communicate on IRC. What were you even talking about?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, we are talking about death threats and, and-
Yeah, we are talking about death threats and, and-
Lex Fridman
Oh, damn.
Oh, damn.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… but having people thanking you, and sometimes- I get people who send me a message and, and, “Oh, thank you for VLC.” And I always answer because I want to validate the fact that you need to thank the open source community.
… but having people thanking you, and sometimes- I get people who send me a message and, and, “Oh, thank you for VLC.” And I always answer because I want to validate the fact that you need to thank the open source community.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, please, everybody listening to this, celebrate, celebrate FFmpeg, celebrate VLC, celebrate all the incredible open source projects, Linux, everything. There’s so many, there’s so many… And you know what? I mean, even outside of open source, just celebrate companies that create software that you use a lot and love.
Yeah, please, everybody listening to this, celebrate, celebrate FFmpeg, celebrate VLC, celebrate all the incredible open source projects, Linux, everything. There’s so many, there’s so many… And you know what? I mean, even outside of open source, just celebrate companies that create software that you use a lot and love.
Kieran Kunhya
Celebrate human endeavor. Celebrate the human effort to not just build something that’s okay- … build something that is damn good.
Celebrate human endeavor. Celebrate the human effort to not just build something that’s okay- … build something that is damn good.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, this is important, right? Because as we said, right, we work for technol- we do something very complex for the normal people. Like, we want our excellence in tech to be useful for everyone. And this is why, like, this is why we work, right? This is why I wake up in the morning is because I want people to use our stuff- … Because it’s making everyone’s life easier.
Yes, this is important, right? Because as we said, right, we work for technol- we do something very complex for the normal people. Like, we want our excellence in tech to be useful for everyone. And this is why, like, this is why we work, right? This is why I wake up in the morning is because I want people to use our stuff- … Because it’s making everyone’s life easier.
Kieran Kunhya
Want to solve hard problems. Work on something interesting, work on some interesting technical challenges.
Want to solve hard problems. Work on something interesting, work on some interesting technical challenges.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
As we are engineers, we love to build things, right? When I was young, like very early, I knew I wanted to build, to be an engineer. I wanted to do cars, right? Maybe at some point I will go back to cars, right? But this is like we want to build things that are cool and useful. And they need to be challenging, right? Because you want your brain to turn on.
As we are engineers, we love to build things, right? When I was young, like very early, I knew I wanted to build, to be an engineer. I wanted to do cars, right? Maybe at some point I will go back to cars, right? But this is like we want to build things that are cool and useful. And they need to be challenging, right? Because you want your brain to turn on.
Lex Fridman
When did the two of you first fall in love with programming, with building, with engineering?
When did the two of you first fall in love with programming, with building, with engineering?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
When is the first time you programmed, Kieran?
When is the first time you programmed, Kieran?
Kieran Kunhya
Microsoft QBasic. As I was on Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, Microsoft QBasic.
Microsoft QBasic. As I was on Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, Microsoft QBasic.
Lex Fridman
Oh, wow. Wow. What’d you build?
Oh, wow. Wow. What’d you build?
Kieran Kunhya
Like a multiplication, just counting loops like 10, 20, 30, 40.
Like a multiplication, just counting loops like 10, 20, 30, 40.
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
Kieran Kunhya
Then I thought I could do everything after that. I wanted… I jumped from doing that to I want to create a soccer, no, a football, soccer video game. And I drew all the, I drew everything out. I was like, “I’m gonna do it.” And I didn’t quite grasp that actually it’s a massive piece of work to jump from BASIC and drawing some pictures to a video game, but there we go.
Then I thought I could do everything after that. I wanted… I jumped from doing that to I want to create a soccer, no, a football, soccer video game. And I drew all the, I drew everything out. I was like, “I’m gonna do it.” And I didn’t quite grasp that actually it’s a massive piece of work to jump from BASIC and drawing some pictures to a video game, but there we go.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. I think I did also Basics and then Turbo Pascal when I was, yeah, end of elementary school. But mostly the first time I actually did some serious programming was the, the first year of you call that middle school when you’re 11? I was living in Italy for a year in Florence and it was amazing year. And like the maths teacher told us to, to work in a programming language called Logo, where you had a turtle that was designing things- … On the screen, and you would turn left and right. And in the end, we used that to do a very complex programming because of course you could do things. And, and this changed, like, as I knew I was, I wanted to do things with computers and program.
Yeah. I think I did also Basics and then Turbo Pascal when I was, yeah, end of elementary school. But mostly the first time I actually did some serious programming was the, the first year of you call that middle school when you’re 11? I was living in Italy for a year in Florence and it was amazing year. And like the maths teacher told us to, to work in a programming language called Logo, where you had a turtle that was designing things- … On the screen, and you would turn left and right. And in the end, we used that to do a very complex programming because of course you could do things. And, and this changed, like, as I knew I was, I wanted to do things with computers and program.
x264 and internet video
Lex Fridman
I don’t think we quite talked about H.264 properly. We talked about David. Can we return-
I don’t think we quite talked about H.264 properly. We talked about David. Can we return-
Kieran Kunhya
Sure
Sure
Lex Fridman
… backtrack a little bit to H.264, this thing that powers basically all of the video on the internet? So can you tell me the story of H.264? And Kieran, you’re actually a contributor- … to H.264.
… backtrack a little bit to H.264, this thing that powers basically all of the video on the internet? So can you tell me the story of H.264? And Kieran, you’re actually a contributor- … to H.264.
Kieran Kunhya
So, so H.264 is a video encoder for the H.264 video standard. It dominates internet video, but also other areas such as Blu-ray discs. And Blu-ray discs are interesting because the people that make them really want the highest quality, and there’s some really cool high-end films that have been encoded broadcasting and all sorts of other areas. H.264 was a big step change ’cause it kinda happened at the right time as well. A lot of the development took place when HD video was coming out. Intel Core 2 and Nehalem CPUs were getting fast. You could do real-time video. But the most important thing was a key sort of focus on visual metrics.
So, so H.264 is a video encoder for the H.264 video standard. It dominates internet video, but also other areas such as Blu-ray discs. And Blu-ray discs are interesting because the people that make them really want the highest quality, and there’s some really cool high-end films that have been encoded broadcasting and all sorts of other areas. H.264 was a big step change ’cause it kinda happened at the right time as well. A lot of the development took place when HD video was coming out. Intel Core 2 and Nehalem CPUs were getting fast. You could do real-time video. But the most important thing was a key sort of focus on visual metrics.
Kieran Kunhya
So industry and academia for 20 years before, was obsessed with mathematical metrics or what’s known as peak signal-to-noise ratio. So mean squared error, logarithm of mean squared error, and that led to tons of issues because mean squared error leads to blurring because you actually want to minimize– You want to add a little bit of error to everything to reduce the mean squared error as opposed to having a big error, and that led to loads and loads of blurring. So hobbyists bucked that trend. It was for their own personal videos, mostly anime. So there were two things they did differently, and there was a big iterative feedback loop with the community. They did some stuff differently.
So industry and academia for 20 years before, was obsessed with mathematical metrics or what’s known as peak signal-to-noise ratio. So mean squared error, logarithm of mean squared error, and that led to tons of issues because mean squared error leads to blurring because you actually want to minimize– You want to add a little bit of error to everything to reduce the mean squared error as opposed to having a big error, and that led to loads and loads of blurring. So hobbyists bucked that trend. It was for their own personal videos, mostly anime. So there were two things they did differently, and there was a big iterative feedback loop with the community. They did some stuff differently.
Kieran Kunhya
Two big things: psychovisual rate distortion, so using block energy, trying to compensate for human perception when making decisions.
Two big things: psychovisual rate distortion, so using block energy, trying to compensate for human perception when making decisions.
Lex Fridman
So the psychovisual distortion, that’s the critical- … thing. That’s the thing. I mean, it’s kind of revolutionary, like, that we can, like, rethink. Don’t make it, like, this kind of theoretic thing- … of compression. Make it all about-
So the psychovisual distortion, that’s the critical- … thing. That’s the thing. I mean, it’s kind of revolutionary, like, that we can, like, rethink. Don’t make it, like, this kind of theoretic thing- … of compression. Make it all about-
Kieran Kunhya
Being pleasing visually to the eye.
Being pleasing visually to the eye.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, yeah. So compressing in a way that loses the least amount of information for the stuff that matters for us humans.
Yeah, yeah. So compressing in a way that loses the least amount of information for the stuff that matters for us humans.
Kieran Kunhya
Yes, exactly. As opposed to what industry– Some parts of industry are still obsessed by this, which is mathematical numbers that don’t look good in reality. And then adaptive quantization was the other big one where it was biasing bits against complex areas and redistributing them to less complex areas like grass. Grass has some high frequencies, but it’s kind of– it’s less complex overall compared to more complicated things. And this came around by ParkJoy. So ParkJoy was really the canonical sample that was… Is the running around in the park.
Yes, exactly. As opposed to what industry– Some parts of industry are still obsessed by this, which is mathematical numbers that don’t look good in reality. And then adaptive quantization was the other big one where it was biasing bits against complex areas and redistributing them to less complex areas like grass. Grass has some high frequencies, but it’s kind of– it’s less complex overall compared to more complicated things. And this came around by ParkJoy. So ParkJoy was really the canonical sample that was… Is the running around in the park.
Lex Fridman
This one.
This one.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. So this guy was really the- So this, this was created by Swedish television in the beginning of HD, and it was done on film, and it was no expense spared in terms of production quality, and it was given away for free. This was really– And this is the sample really that sorts the men from the boys in terms of it has so many challenges with the trees, with the water, with the grass, with the motion, with the… I don’t think there’s, there’s still been any, any public test sequence as good as that these days.
Yeah. So this guy was really the- So this, this was created by Swedish television in the beginning of HD, and it was done on film, and it was no expense spared in terms of production quality, and it was given away for free. This was really– And this is the sample really that sorts the men from the boys in terms of it has so many challenges with the trees, with the water, with the grass, with the motion, with the… I don’t think there’s, there’s still been any, any public test sequence as good as that these days.
Lex Fridman
So for people who are just listening, we’re looking at a bunch of humans running- … along a river, as you have the reflection, a lot of really high information textures everywhere, the leaves and the lighting playing with the leaves and all of this.
So for people who are just listening, we’re looking at a bunch of humans running- … along a river, as you have the reflection, a lot of really high information textures everywhere, the leaves and the lighting playing with the leaves and all of this.
Kieran Kunhya
You could show clearly that encoders with high PSNR-
You could show clearly that encoders with high PSNR-
Lex Fridman
Will blur everything
Will blur everything
Kieran Kunhya
… will blur everything, and you could see actually I could turn on psychovisual stuff, I could turn on adaptive quantization, and it would just look so much better. But your metrics– And these metrics at the time were considered so holy. These are the holy metrics that are untouchable. PSNR is the most important thing.
… will blur everything, and you could see actually I could turn on psychovisual stuff, I could turn on adaptive quantization, and it would just look so much better. But your metrics– And these metrics at the time were considered so holy. These are the holy metrics that are untouchable. PSNR is the most important thing.
Lex Fridman
Can you speak to how do you measure psychovisual stuff? Like, how do you turn how pleasing a compression is for a human eye- … into a number? Is that even possible?
Can you speak to how do you measure psychovisual stuff? Like, how do you turn how pleasing a compression is for a human eye- … into a number? Is that even possible?
Kieran Kunhya
That’s what, that’s what Netflix has been trying to do with VMAF. They said they’ve used a machine learning model.
That’s what, that’s what Netflix has been trying to do with VMAF. They said they’ve used a machine learning model.
Lex Fridman
That’s a more recent thing. But back when x264 was being developed, that’s by eye you’re basically-
That’s a more recent thing. But back when x264 was being developed, that’s by eye you’re basically-
Kieran Kunhya
It was by eye. It was developers on their laptops. So it’s not like even with big companies with professional screens or anything, it’s- And that was actually one of the goals, which was I don’t– The, the developers at the time, Loren Merritt in particular, it’s, “I don’t wanna test this on a thirty thousand dollar screen. It’s– I want this to look good on someone’s laptop at home.”
It was by eye. It was developers on their laptops. So it’s not like even with big companies with professional screens or anything, it’s- And that was actually one of the goals, which was I don’t– The, the developers at the time, Loren Merritt in particular, it’s, “I don’t wanna test this on a thirty thousand dollar screen. It’s– I want this to look good on someone’s laptop at home.”
Lex Fridman
Yeah. Brilliant.
Yeah. Brilliant.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There is another sample which is, um- … A sample that is Planet Earth’s killer sample that I absolutely love. And you are going to see why, right?
There is another sample which is, um- … A sample that is Planet Earth’s killer sample that I absolutely love. And you are going to see why, right?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, you’re going to love this.
Yeah, you’re going to love this.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The- it’s a ton of birds, right, flying, and the more it goes, the more there are birds, and at the end, right, it’s almost like you have millions of birds. It’s the most complex thing ever to encode, right? And well, you’re watching it on YouTube, and you see how bad the YouTube encoding is actually, right? And this is, like, phenomenal to optimize and get perfect quality in a constant bit rate. There was a lot of optimization, mostly by Loren also, um- on anime, right? For a long time, anime was very badly encoded because there was a ton of banding, right? And so you see those issues, and there was a ton of things. So x264 is, like– And today it’s still the reference to any encoder, new encoder, AV1, AV2, VVC, HEVC; everyone compares to x264.
The- it’s a ton of birds, right, flying, and the more it goes, the more there are birds, and at the end, right, it’s almost like you have millions of birds. It’s the most complex thing ever to encode, right? And well, you’re watching it on YouTube, and you see how bad the YouTube encoding is actually, right? And this is, like, phenomenal to optimize and get perfect quality in a constant bit rate. There was a lot of optimization, mostly by Loren also, um- on anime, right? For a long time, anime was very badly encoded because there was a ton of banding, right? And so you see those issues, and there was a ton of things. So x264 is, like– And today it’s still the reference to any encoder, new encoder, AV1, AV2, VVC, HEVC; everyone compares to x264.
Kieran Kunhya
One of my favorite films, Cinema Paradiso, I know the engineer who created the Blu-ray, and he showed me the comparisons of x264 versus others, and the… it’s completely different. And I think a bunch, a bunch of guys in the Blu-ray world started using x264. Um, I think the big one was Chris Henderson from Warner Bros. He did the whole Fringe box set with that. So quite, like, a thing a person on the street actually watches and wants to look good. And so they kind of took a risk in their jobs doing that because they’re in a big company. That big company can buy whatever they want.
One of my favorite films, Cinema Paradiso, I know the engineer who created the Blu-ray, and he showed me the comparisons of x264 versus others, and the… it’s completely different. And I think a bunch, a bunch of guys in the Blu-ray world started using x264. Um, I think the big one was Chris Henderson from Warner Bros. He did the whole Fringe box set with that. So quite, like, a thing a person on the street actually watches and wants to look good. And so they kind of took a risk in their jobs doing that because they’re in a big company. That big company can buy whatever they want.
Kieran Kunhya
And they said, “No, no, no, I want to use this free and open source thing so that things look good for my, my customers and build the best.” And to this day, I personally still try and avoid watching the most cinematic films on streaming services and buy the physical discs because they look, they look good without even having to buy an expensive TV. I think that’s the key thing.
And they said, “No, no, no, I want to use this free and open source thing so that things look good for my, my customers and build the best.” And to this day, I personally still try and avoid watching the most cinematic films on streaming services and buy the physical discs because they look, they look good without even having to buy an expensive TV. I think that’s the key thing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And x264 is yet another example of open source project. It was started by Laurent Aimar when he was at École Centrale Paris, where VLC was born. And then you got a generation of people like Loren, like Jason, like Måns, like so many-
And x264 is yet another example of open source project. It was started by Laurent Aimar when he was at École Centrale Paris, where VLC was born. And then you got a generation of people like Loren, like Jason, like Måns, like so many-
Kieran Kunhya
Henrik from-
Henrik from-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Henrik,
Henrik,
Kieran Kunhya
Anton,
Anton,
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
and this is– Anton, and this is where the assembly thing that we use now on FFmpeg, David and so on, was born, right? So x264 is, like, an amazing project with people who were really all over the world, and I think most of them never met each other.
and this is– Anton, and this is where the assembly thing that we use now on FFmpeg, David and so on, was born, right? So x264 is, like, an amazing project with people who were really all over the world, and I think most of them never met each other.
Lex Fridman
But all of them, according to Kieran, or a large percentage, love anime. There’s several things I’ve never got into, and one of them is anime, and I need to
But all of them, according to Kieran, or a large percentage, love anime. There’s several things I’ve never got into, and one of them is anime, and I need to
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
I watch anime so much, especially at the time. Like, at the time, it was like a lot of anime content doesn’t exist commercially, right? We are before Crunchyroll, right? So what happens is usually people who love anime, who take some things, some DVDs in Japan and rip them because there is no commercial offering. And-
I watch anime so much, especially at the time. Like, at the time, it was like a lot of anime content doesn’t exist commercially, right? We are before Crunchyroll, right? So what happens is usually people who love anime, who take some things, some DVDs in Japan and rip them because there is no commercial offering. And-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
some of the people who are, what we call fansubbers, are basically translating themselves to make subtitles, right? And at that time, you download completely illegally. It was the only way to do that, right? And so all of that was handcrafted, and it fits the open source community, right? Because they needed tools to encode, to do fansubbing, right? One of the most amazing open source projects for subtitles is called Aegisub, and it’s, it’s a subtitle… It’s done for anime, for, for, for South Asian and Japanese languages.
some of the people who are, what we call fansubbers, are basically translating themselves to make subtitles, right? And at that time, you download completely illegally. It was the only way to do that, right? And so all of that was handcrafted, and it fits the open source community, right? Because they needed tools to encode, to do fansubbing, right? One of the most amazing open source projects for subtitles is called Aegisub, and it’s, it’s a subtitle… It’s done for anime, for, for, for South Asian and Japanese languages.
Kieran Kunhya
There are weird textures in anime that I don’t think you get in real life content. I think that was a key one, which was optimizing these weird textures that you get- … because anime is not done in a normal fashion.
There are weird textures in anime that I don’t think you get in real life content. I think that was a key one, which was optimizing these weird textures that you get- … because anime is not done in a normal fashion.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. The way you produce it is not– You, you mostly produce it, like, on screens, right? Since a bit of time, and you have all those gradients, right, in colors? Because they are very easy to produce digitally, very complex to produce in real life. And, and the subtitles also are very complex because you need to have often the Japanese and then you need to have the diacritics, right? The what we call the ruby, right? Which is the hiragana and the katakana for the kanji. And then because of course you, so that you have the official subtitling, but you also need the English subtitles or the French subtitles because you want to learn that, right?
Yeah. The way you produce it is not– You, you mostly produce it, like, on screens, right? Since a bit of time, and you have all those gradients, right, in colors? Because they are very easy to produce digitally, very complex to produce in real life. And, and the subtitles also are very complex because you need to have often the Japanese and then you need to have the diacritics, right? The what we call the ruby, right? Which is the hiragana and the katakana for the kanji. And then because of course you, so that you have the official subtitling, but you also need the English subtitles or the French subtitles because you want to learn that, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And there is so many things crazy on, on subtitles and we had like crazy samples on, on subtitles that we’ve seen all around. So this is an important part of the, the culture, but also because there was no official offering. There was no way of doing that.
And there is so many things crazy on, on subtitles and we had like crazy samples on, on subtitles that we’ve seen all around. So this is an important part of the, the culture, but also because there was no official offering. There was no way of doing that.
Lex Fridman
Can you speak to the difference between H.264 and AV1 and then x264 and dav1d? This is this big step. Can you help people understand, are some of the streaming sites moving more towards that direction of AV1?
Can you speak to the difference between H.264 and AV1 and then x264 and dav1d? This is this big step. Can you help people understand, are some of the streaming sites moving more towards that direction of AV1?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Let’s be honest, all of those codecs since MPEG-2 video are the same concepts. The same concept about inverse transform, about intra prediction, motion compensation, entropy coding, all of them. However, each generation gives you a bump between twenty-five and fifty percent more compression for the same quality. And so you had the MPEG-2, you had the DivX era, you have H.264, which was, like, changing, right? H.264 improved so much. And then you had more, right? You had HEVC. You had VP9 at the same time of HEVC. VP9 is a bit similar to HEVC in terms of quality compression, but it’s royalty-free. Because in multimedia there is ton of patents and the licensing after H.264 became out of hand, right? And could cost hundreds of millions of dollars per year. So it made no sense.
Let’s be honest, all of those codecs since MPEG-2 video are the same concepts. The same concept about inverse transform, about intra prediction, motion compensation, entropy coding, all of them. However, each generation gives you a bump between twenty-five and fifty percent more compression for the same quality. And so you had the MPEG-2, you had the DivX era, you have H.264, which was, like, changing, right? H.264 improved so much. And then you had more, right? You had HEVC. You had VP9 at the same time of HEVC. VP9 is a bit similar to HEVC in terms of quality compression, but it’s royalty-free. Because in multimedia there is ton of patents and the licensing after H.264 became out of hand, right? And could cost hundreds of millions of dollars per year. So it made no sense.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So Google did this VP9 and the Alliance for Open Media did this new codec called AV1. So you can imagine that AV1 saves between forty and sixty percent less bandwidth than H.264- … for the same quality, visual quality.
So Google did this VP9 and the Alliance for Open Media did this new codec called AV1. So you can imagine that AV1 saves between forty and sixty percent less bandwidth than H.264- … for the same quality, visual quality.
Kieran Kunhya
At a given bitrate.
At a given bitrate.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
At a given bitrate, right? So that’s really like you increase the quality– either you set the bitrate and you increase the quality, or you set the quality and you decrease your bitrate. But because now you move from SD to HD and HD to 4K and 4K to 4K HDR, like you increasing the size by like factor two, three, four, right? So you need to have better compression to keep it in terms of something that is manageable.
At a given bitrate, right? So that’s really like you increase the quality– either you set the bitrate and you increase the quality, or you set the quality and you decrease your bitrate. But because now you move from SD to HD and HD to 4K and 4K to 4K HDR, like you increasing the size by like factor two, three, four, right? So you need to have better compression to keep it in terms of something that is manageable.
Kieran Kunhya
It’s more coding tools, more bigger blocks, lots more sub-partitions in each block. It’s just exponentially more complex.
It’s more coding tools, more bigger blocks, lots more sub-partitions in each block. It’s just exponentially more complex.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It’s more complex because the encoder needs to search more possibilities, right? So you, for example one of the things that is easy to understand is to predict a block, a color block to another, you have directions, right? So you can go left, right, bottom, up, and then in terms of like the other quadrants, right? What I call north, northeast, northwest, and so on, right? But that’s eight directions. Then you can do more direction. You can do sixteen or sixty-nine or one hundred and twenty-eight, right? You can– And every time your encoder is going to spend more time to see, oh, well, this block is exactly this one and those type of tools that you can bring, and the encoder needs to check which of the tools are going to compress you better.
It’s more complex because the encoder needs to search more possibilities, right? So you, for example one of the things that is easy to understand is to predict a block, a color block to another, you have directions, right? So you can go left, right, bottom, up, and then in terms of like the other quadrants, right? What I call north, northeast, northwest, and so on, right? But that’s eight directions. Then you can do more direction. You can do sixteen or sixty-nine or one hundred and twenty-eight, right? You can– And every time your encoder is going to spend more time to see, oh, well, this block is exactly this one and those type of tools that you can bring, and the encoder needs to check which of the tools are going to compress you better.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so I guess that AV1 encoding is two orders of magnitude more than H.264 in terms of CPU cycles, right? Order of magnitude, right?
And so I guess that AV1 encoding is two orders of magnitude more than H.264 in terms of CPU cycles, right? Order of magnitude, right?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah. And as we discussed, CPUs are not getting faster. You’re just throwing more cores at the problem.
Yeah. And as we discussed, CPUs are not getting faster. You’re just throwing more cores at the problem.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But also it’s a fact that you encode once and you have hundreds of millions of users, right? So for example, YouTube, a very good example. YouTube encodes almost everything in H.264, but the popular video gets re-encoded in AV1 because it costs more, of course, to encode, but you encode once and you send that to millions, right? So it’s a trade-off between encoding time and complexity- … and CPU usage on the server side and on the client side. Because at the end, if you’re distributing a video to hundreds of thousands of people and the size is half of the other, then it’s better. It’s better for your battery, it’s better for your modem, et cetera, et cetera.
But also it’s a fact that you encode once and you have hundreds of millions of users, right? So for example, YouTube, a very good example. YouTube encodes almost everything in H.264, but the popular video gets re-encoded in AV1 because it costs more, of course, to encode, but you encode once and you send that to millions, right? So it’s a trade-off between encoding time and complexity- … and CPU usage on the server side and on the client side. Because at the end, if you’re distributing a video to hundreds of thousands of people and the size is half of the other, then it’s better. It’s better for your battery, it’s better for your modem, et cetera, et cetera.
Video compression basics
Lex Fridman
So we can lay out, let’s say, the top five codec-container combos would be H.264 inside MP4 containers, AV1 inside MP4/WebM containers, ProRes for nonlinear editing inside MOV containers. So for people who don’t know, I guess ProRes is
So we can lay out, let’s say, the top five codec-container combos would be H.264 inside MP4 containers, AV1 inside MP4/WebM containers, ProRes for nonlinear editing inside MOV containers. So for people who don’t know, I guess ProRes is
Kieran Kunhya
It’s Apple’s codec for editing, originally for Final Cut Pro, and it’s designed to be fast to decode, fast to seek, because an editor will need to move very quickly. So it’s a different use case to the distribution element.
It’s Apple’s codec for editing, originally for Final Cut Pro, and it’s designed to be fast to decode, fast to seek, because an editor will need to move very quickly. So it’s a different use case to the distribution element.
Lex Fridman
There’s no or very minimal temporal compression in the-
There’s no or very minimal temporal compression in the-
Kieran Kunhya
There’s none, yeah. There’s none in ProRes. So you can cut, so you can do cuts.
There’s none, yeah. There’s none in ProRes. So you can cut, so you can do cuts.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
This is what we call intra-only codecs, right? So I’m going to explain quickly what is IPB frames.
This is what we call intra-only codecs, right? So I’m going to explain quickly what is IPB frames.
Lex Fridman
Yes, please.
Yes, please.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So I-frames, often key frames, are complete frames. It’s like an image. It’s a JPEG, right? You have… You can start, you see everything, right? And then the next image can be a P-frame, which is a predicted frame. So you take some part of the previous image saying, “Well, I need the block five and seven and forty-two,” and you replace it, and then you just give the extra information, right? But that means that in order to decode this P-frame, you need to have access to a previous I-frame, right? And then, of course, you have more complex ones, which are B-frames, which are bi-predicted frames, which can depend on different type of frames, some in the past, some in the future. And so ProRes is an intra-only codec. For the people who can see, this is-
So I-frames, often key frames, are complete frames. It’s like an image. It’s a JPEG, right? You have… You can start, you see everything, right? And then the next image can be a P-frame, which is a predicted frame. So you take some part of the previous image saying, “Well, I need the block five and seven and forty-two,” and you replace it, and then you just give the extra information, right? But that means that in order to decode this P-frame, you need to have access to a previous I-frame, right? And then, of course, you have more complex ones, which are B-frames, which are bi-predicted frames, which can depend on different type of frames, some in the past, some in the future. And so ProRes is an intra-only codec. For the people who can see, this is-
Lex Fridman
Yeah, that’s a good one
Yeah, that’s a good one
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… a very good one, right? So I-frames are complete frames. Um, P-frames basically depend only on I-frames, and B-frames can depend on in front.
… a very good one, right? So I-frames are complete frames. Um, P-frames basically depend only on I-frames, and B-frames can depend on in front.
Lex Fridman
And this GOP, group of pictures—I think the default for actually FFmpeg for H.264 is like two hundred and fifty frames, something like this. And to me, it’s just, it’s like magic, like that you could predict that you could have a complete frame every-
And this GOP, group of pictures—I think the default for actually FFmpeg for H.264 is like two hundred and fifty frames, something like this. And to me, it’s just, it’s like magic, like that you could predict that you could have a complete frame every-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Several seconds, that means
Several seconds, that means
Lex Fridman
… several seconds, and then you could still, you could have this chain of predictions you make, and the fact that you can– The fact that somebody like me can use FFmpeg to compress something and not notice that the result still plays back smoothly is, is like magic.
… several seconds, and then you could still, you could have this chain of predictions you make, and the fact that you can– The fact that somebody like me can use FFmpeg to compress something and not notice that the result still plays back smoothly is, is like magic.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You can even have, and we use that in tons on Kyber, is what we call intra-refresh, where basically there is no I-frames present.
You can even have, and we use that in tons on Kyber, is what we call intra-refresh, where basically there is no I-frames present.
Kieran Kunhya
You have no I… You have one at the beginning. And you never send an I-frame. You get a-
You have no I… You have one at the beginning. And you never send an I-frame. You get a-
Lex Fridman
How does that work? What is it?
How does that work? What is it?
Kieran Kunhya
You build up an I-frame gradually across as the stream continues, so-
You build up an I-frame gradually across as the stream continues, so-
Lex Fridman
Ah. So you refresh certain parts- … of the image.
Ah. So you refresh certain parts- … of the image.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But so you never have an I-frame. Like this is intra-refresh that we use, right?
But so you never have an I-frame. Like this is intra-refresh that we use, right?
Lex Fridman
That’s even smarter.
That’s even smarter.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But for me, for me, the biggest mind-blown when I started was the B-frames. B-frames means bi-predicted frames can depend on frames that are coming in the future. That means that in order to decode this B frame, you need to wait for the next frame that is dependent- … buffer that, decode that one, so that you can decode the B frame, right? So the way you decode the frame, the decoding order is not the same as the display order. Right? That means the encoder needs to be very clever and decide that, “Well, you know, I’m going to depend on things like in the future.” So this is like-
But for me, for me, the biggest mind-blown when I started was the B-frames. B-frames means bi-predicted frames can depend on frames that are coming in the future. That means that in order to decode this B frame, you need to wait for the next frame that is dependent- … buffer that, decode that one, so that you can decode the B frame, right? So the way you decode the frame, the decoding order is not the same as the display order. Right? That means the encoder needs to be very clever and decide that, “Well, you know, I’m going to depend on things like in the future.” So this is like-
Lex Fridman
It’s incredible
It’s incredible
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… mind-blowing.
… mind-blowing.
Kieran Kunhya
The fact it works so smoothly every day is kind of miraculous in some ways. It works so… You can have a stream that works across the world on their decoder versus one in the US versus one here of different manufacturers, and they produce bit for bit exactly the same material. That’s quite remarkable, and do quite complex things, and getting more and more complex and still be bit-exact. There’s a lot of work that goes into that.
The fact it works so smoothly every day is kind of miraculous in some ways. It works so… You can have a stream that works across the world on their decoder versus one in the US versus one here of different manufacturers, and they produce bit for bit exactly the same material. That’s quite remarkable, and do quite complex things, and getting more and more complex and still be bit-exact. There’s a lot of work that goes into that.
Lex Fridman
There’s a lot of knobs you can control in this whole process. There’s a lot of really fascinating parameters that I’ve gotten to know more and more over the years that FFmpeg gives you complete access to. Maybe you could speak to some of them. So first of all, like obviously, we can lower the resolution, we can lower the frame rate, we can use different kinds of codecs, as we mentioned, from H.264 to AV1. There’s ways to tune the trade-off between bitrate and quality, as we’ve kind of spoken to. You know, you could do constant bitrate, you can do constant quality, say CRF, QP. You can do the longer or shorter group of pictures, GOP, that we mentioned. I mean, all that kind of stuff. It’s crazy. Number of B-frames.
There’s a lot of knobs you can control in this whole process. There’s a lot of really fascinating parameters that I’ve gotten to know more and more over the years that FFmpeg gives you complete access to. Maybe you could speak to some of them. So first of all, like obviously, we can lower the resolution, we can lower the frame rate, we can use different kinds of codecs, as we mentioned, from H.264 to AV1. There’s ways to tune the trade-off between bitrate and quality, as we’ve kind of spoken to. You know, you could do constant bitrate, you can do constant quality, say CRF, QP. You can do the longer or shorter group of pictures, GOP, that we mentioned. I mean, all that kind of stuff. It’s crazy. Number of B-frames.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. What is crazy is that a ton of people’s job is to optimize those parameters, right? A ton of people that you see at YouTube, at Netflix, at Meta, and so on, they’re not writing codecs. They’re just like finding the right parameters for the file they have, for the format they have, right? Because like something that is for a movie or something that is user-generated content from your phone or a screen recording or something that you’re going to video edit, you don’t want the same things. And there are thousands of people whose job is just to optimize all that.
Yeah. What is crazy is that a ton of people’s job is to optimize those parameters, right? A ton of people that you see at YouTube, at Netflix, at Meta, and so on, they’re not writing codecs. They’re just like finding the right parameters for the file they have, for the format they have, right? Because like something that is for a movie or something that is user-generated content from your phone or a screen recording or something that you’re going to video edit, you don’t want the same things. And there are thousands of people whose job is just to optimize all that.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. They’re wizards. Hats off to them. YouTube, like, to deliver—all the streaming sites actually, to deliver at scale. And like YouTube is really magical because it’s not just doing like what Netflix does, which is one-way broadcasting type thing. It also has to upload videos from all the places. So they’re also doing encoding at scale- … for videos that are gonna be watched by like five people. And it still has to deliver them on a moment’s notice. No delay, nothing. I mean, very minimal latency. And also serve it in all different resolutions. Like YouTube is basically the web version of VLC.
Yeah. They’re wizards. Hats off to them. YouTube, like, to deliver—all the streaming sites actually, to deliver at scale. And like YouTube is really magical because it’s not just doing like what Netflix does, which is one-way broadcasting type thing. It also has to upload videos from all the places. So they’re also doing encoding at scale- … for videos that are gonna be watched by like five people. And it still has to deliver them on a moment’s notice. No delay, nothing. I mean, very minimal latency. And also serve it in all different resolutions. Like YouTube is basically the web version of VLC.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah. Well, actually, it’s funny because, like Google Video, which was something they did before they acquired YouTube, was actually using the VLC plugin so that you could run VLC inside the web browser using the ActiveX plugin. And so it worked in Internet Explorer, and you were actually running VLC inside your browser. Which is funny because today we have the opposite, where we have VLC WebAssembly, where we compile all VLC and FFmpeg to decode, to run VLC inside the JavaScript virtual machine with WebAssembly.
Yeah. Well, actually, it’s funny because, like Google Video, which was something they did before they acquired YouTube, was actually using the VLC plugin so that you could run VLC inside the web browser using the ActiveX plugin. And so it worked in Internet Explorer, and you were actually running VLC inside your browser. Which is funny because today we have the opposite, where we have VLC WebAssembly, where we compile all VLC and FFmpeg to decode, to run VLC inside the JavaScript virtual machine with WebAssembly.
CIA and fake VLC
Lex Fridman
Okay, there’s this legendary story that you pointed me to that it was discovered via WikiLeaks release of Vault 7 documents. The CIA was using a modified version of VLC to basically try and trick people, what? To steal their data?
Okay, there’s this legendary story that you pointed me to that it was discovered via WikiLeaks release of Vault 7 documents. The CIA was using a modified version of VLC to basically try and trick people, what? To steal their data?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, exactly.
Yes, exactly.
Lex Fridman
So can you explain what the heck happened? What…
So can you explain what the heck happened? What…
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So, so this was a surprise, right? Because at some point, WikiLeaks mentioned some documents. There were a few ones with something related to Blu-rays and VLC, but the most interesting one was the CIA Vault 7, which, if I understand correctly, was the CIA had, like, a custom version of VLC where they had a specific plugin. Yeah, exactly. This is— Like, we had to write a press release on that.
So, so this was a surprise, right? Because at some point, WikiLeaks mentioned some documents. There were a few ones with something related to Blu-rays and VLC, but the most interesting one was the CIA Vault 7, which, if I understand correctly, was the CIA had, like, a custom version of VLC where they had a specific plugin. Yeah, exactly. This is— Like, we had to write a press release on that.
Lex Fridman
VideoLAN wrote a press release saying the only safe source for getting VLC media player is the official VideoLAN website. I mean, I suppose that’s a security vulnerability for basically any piece of open source software. Somebody can trick you.
VideoLAN wrote a press release saying the only safe source for getting VLC media player is the official VideoLAN website. I mean, I suppose that’s a security vulnerability for basically any piece of open source software. Somebody can trick you.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
To download in a fake website—
To download in a fake website—
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… or targeted advertisement, right? That was a targeted advertisement, to watch a specific file you need to watch with this custom version of VLC. And it was the normal binaries of VLC, except they added one DLL, I think it was psapi.dll-
… or targeted advertisement, right? That was a targeted advertisement, to watch a specific file you need to watch with this custom version of VLC. And it was the normal binaries of VLC, except they added one DLL, I think it was psapi.dll-
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… which was basically reading your document folder, encrypting that, and sending that. And the thing is, this is very clever, to be honest, because once you’re watching a movie, right, you’re going to do that for two hours, and you’re not going to touch your computer. And sometimes it’s normal because it’s HD that your fans are going up and say, “Vroom,” and there is a ton of CPU usage because you’re using VLC, right? That’s normal. But the thing is, what you don’t see is that’s actually a powered version of VLC that is used by the CIA. We had exactly the same problem with Chinese hackers that were targeting Indian people, and that got VLC banned from India until I had to fight in courts in India, the Indian government, to unban VLC. They didn’t use VLC.
… which was basically reading your document folder, encrypting that, and sending that. And the thing is, this is very clever, to be honest, because once you’re watching a movie, right, you’re going to do that for two hours, and you’re not going to touch your computer. And sometimes it’s normal because it’s HD that your fans are going up and say, “Vroom,” and there is a ton of CPU usage because you’re using VLC, right? That’s normal. But the thing is, what you don’t see is that’s actually a powered version of VLC that is used by the CIA. We had exactly the same problem with Chinese hackers that were targeting Indian people, and that got VLC banned from India until I had to fight in courts in India, the Indian government, to unban VLC. They didn’t use VLC.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
They took just one DLL, because we signed the DLL correctly and they used that DLL to do another program. So you had the vlc.exe and was calling libVLC, but it was calling it into a fake one. And they used that to, to target. There is not much we can do actually to block those type of hacks.
They took just one DLL, because we signed the DLL correctly and they used that DLL to do another program. So you had the vlc.exe and was calling libVLC, but it was calling it into a fake one. And they used that to, to target. There is not much we can do actually to block those type of hacks.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, and I think people should, for all open source software, for all software in general, people should pay attention where they download the thing.
Yeah, and I think people should, for all open source software, for all software in general, people should pay attention where they download the thing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, because that means that they were not downloading it from our website.
Yes, because that means that they were not downloading it from our website.
Lex Fridman
Do the search engines help you?
Do the search engines help you?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, they don’t.
No, they don’t.
Lex Fridman
Just to clarify, ’cause you can, you know, to prevent threats from people manipulating SEO to get up there on the links and try to-
Just to clarify, ’cause you can, you know, to prevent threats from people manipulating SEO to get up there on the links and try to-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Absolutely not, right? We have a big issue for, like, more than ten years, is that there is a fake version of VLC in Germany that was reported for now for 12 years, and Google basically decides to not— They know what’s in it, but the binary is too big for their virus analyzer to analyze it. And so while if you’re in Germany, you can go to a website that is a fake version of VLC with a custom installer, and it’s very popular in Germany because their website is in German, and Google mentioned that before VideoLAN. And the weirdest thing is that it doesn’t do anything on your machine for three weeks.
Absolutely not, right? We have a big issue for, like, more than ten years, is that there is a fake version of VLC in Germany that was reported for now for 12 years, and Google basically decides to not— They know what’s in it, but the binary is too big for their virus analyzer to analyze it. And so while if you’re in Germany, you can go to a website that is a fake version of VLC with a custom installer, and it’s very popular in Germany because their website is in German, and Google mentioned that before VideoLAN. And the weirdest thing is that it doesn’t do anything on your machine for three weeks.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Because that’s how they do the detection. And after three weeks, there is a small program that is a service that installed at the same time that wakes up after three weeks, and it starts downloading spyware and adware. And Google knows about it. They’ve decided not to do anything. The guys used dark SEO in Germany to do that at some point. And this is very damaging, right? Because one of the things that they are downloading is actually something that is replacing your ads inside your machine, right?
Because that’s how they do the detection. And after three weeks, there is a small program that is a service that installed at the same time that wakes up after three weeks, and it starts downloading spyware and adware. And Google knows about it. They’ve decided not to do anything. The guys used dark SEO in Germany to do that at some point. And this is very damaging, right? Because one of the things that they are downloading is actually something that is replacing your ads inside your machine, right?
Lex Fridman
It’s actually quite surprisingly effective. Whoever is doing it with Twitter and X. With X, I’ll get emails about, “Your X account has been hacked.” And however they phrase it, it gets me to, like, at least click on the email, not to follow the thing, and then you’re like, “Man, whatever they’re doing with the psychology to try to trick you, they’re quite good.”
It’s actually quite surprisingly effective. Whoever is doing it with Twitter and X. With X, I’ll get emails about, “Your X account has been hacked.” And however they phrase it, it gets me to, like, at least click on the email, not to follow the thing, and then you’re like, “Man, whatever they’re doing with the psychology to try to trick you, they’re quite good.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There is a security version of VLC, right? You received an email saying, “Hey, there is a security version update on VLC. Think about updating right now because—
There is a security version of VLC, right? You received an email saying, “Hey, there is a security version update on VLC. Think about updating right now because—
Lex Fridman
Right
Right
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… it can hack your computer.” You come. It’s a website that looks decent, and—
… it can hack your computer.” You come. It’s a website that looks decent, and—
Lex Fridman
Yeah
Yeah
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… and you download. It’s a new version of VLC. Great. You don’t know. A month later, you’re hacked. You have no idea. You’re part of a botnet.
… and you download. It’s a new version of VLC. Great. You don’t know. A month later, you’re hacked. You have no idea. You’re part of a botnet.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. So make sure wherever you’re downloading stuff, it’s legitimate. I’m part of the botnet. Speaking of which, so you’ve mentioned that VLC sandboxing is something you’re working on, and it’s actually something quite challenging. Why is it important? Why is it hard?
Yeah. So make sure wherever you’re downloading stuff, it’s legitimate. I’m part of the botnet. Speaking of which, so you’ve mentioned that VLC sandboxing is something you’re working on, and it’s actually something quite challenging. Why is it important? Why is it hard?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So VLC is a core with around 500 plugins, right? One of them is FFmpeg, but we have, we support so many other formats. We support new protocols, we support new filters, we support weird architectures. And in this release of VLC, you have modules that are going to call your drivers, right?
So VLC is a core with around 500 plugins, right? One of them is FFmpeg, but we have, we support so many other formats. We support new protocols, we support new filters, we support weird architectures. And in this release of VLC, you have modules that are going to call your drivers, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Mostly the hardware decoders, which are going to call your Intel, your NVIDIA, your AMD driver. And all calling FFmpeg, right? And there might be a security issue. There might be a security issue in the shader, there might be a security issue in VLC, in FFmpeg that is going to basically crash. The issue is that you’re running VLC like every, every other program, like Adobe, right? You’re running it on your machine, and it has access to all your documents, right? So the idea is to be sure that you do a sandbox so that we can protect from ourselves, because inside the VLC process is running some code that is not even ours. Either it’s open source for other projects that we integrate in VLC, or it’s your GPU driver or something that is provided by someone else inside.
Mostly the hardware decoders, which are going to call your Intel, your NVIDIA, your AMD driver. And all calling FFmpeg, right? And there might be a security issue. There might be a security issue in the shader, there might be a security issue in VLC, in FFmpeg that is going to basically crash. The issue is that you’re running VLC like every, every other program, like Adobe, right? You’re running it on your machine, and it has access to all your documents, right? So the idea is to be sure that you do a sandbox so that we can protect from ourselves, because inside the VLC process is running some code that is not even ours. Either it’s open source for other projects that we integrate in VLC, or it’s your GPU driver or something that is provided by someone else inside.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so when we crash, we want to not allow people to do bad things, right? Because one of the common ways of hacking people is to crash a program, very often done with a web browser, very often done with PDF files, less often with multimedia, but that could happen. And when you crash, you launch something on the, on the machine of the person. Could be a ransomware, could be a botnet, right? So security of desktop applications is important. On mobile, it’s a bit different because most of the mobile applications are running inside their own sandbox. But for VLC, we could run it inside one sandbox, but the problem is that we need access to so many things that it’s basically we would have all the permissions, right?
And so when we crash, we want to not allow people to do bad things, right? Because one of the common ways of hacking people is to crash a program, very often done with a web browser, very often done with PDF files, less often with multimedia, but that could happen. And when you crash, you launch something on the, on the machine of the person. Could be a ransomware, could be a botnet, right? So security of desktop applications is important. On mobile, it’s a bit different because most of the mobile applications are running inside their own sandbox. But for VLC, we could run it inside one sandbox, but the problem is that we need access to so many things that it’s basically we would have all the permissions, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so if you have a sandbox and you put some holes everywhere, it defeats the purpose, right? So what we are trying to do, and we’re actually doing, is splitting VLC into several processes. One is decoding, one is demuxing, one is filters, and all of them run into their own sandbox so that if a part of VLC crashes, like Chrome crashes on some, on some tab, right? It crashes, but it does not crash the whole program. And this is what we’re trying to do. And it’s difficult because it’s a sandbox that needs to sustain gigabits per second-
And so if you have a sandbox and you put some holes everywhere, it defeats the purpose, right? So what we are trying to do, and we’re actually doing, is splitting VLC into several processes. One is decoding, one is demuxing, one is filters, and all of them run into their own sandbox so that if a part of VLC crashes, like Chrome crashes on some, on some tab, right? It crashes, but it does not crash the whole program. And this is what we’re trying to do. And it’s difficult because it’s a sandbox that needs to sustain gigabits per second-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… of mem copies. Now, it’s not a website which is five megabytes or 10 megabytes. We’re talking about hundreds of megabits per second. So this is why it is quite challenging. And this is a research topic that we are working on in order to have a multimedia player that is secure.
… of mem copies. Now, it’s not a website which is five megabytes or 10 megabytes. We’re talking about hundreds of megabits per second. So this is why it is quite challenging. And this is a research topic that we are working on in order to have a multimedia player that is secure.
Lex Fridman
This is all the kind of stuff you have to think about when millions of people are using. You, you’ve mentioned something somewhere where, like all the different features of VLC, when you have that many people using it, somebody will use every single feature, and they will tell you about it.
This is all the kind of stuff you have to think about when millions of people are using. You, you’ve mentioned something somewhere where, like all the different features of VLC, when you have that many people using it, somebody will use every single feature, and they will tell you about it.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Best feature in VLC is called the puzzle filter, right? So you click the puzzle filter, and it transforms your video into a jigsaw puzzle, right?
Best feature in VLC is called the puzzle filter, right? So you click the puzzle filter, and it transforms your video into a jigsaw puzzle, right?
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And you can click and move the pieces, right? It’s very, very useful when you’re watching a French movie, right? You’re bored- … because it’s like very long things or a love triangle, right? We’ve seen that so many times, right? But you need to watch it because someone, your wife or- … told you to do that-
And you can click and move the pieces, right? It’s very, very useful when you’re watching a French movie, right? You’re bored- … because it’s like very long things or a love triangle, right? We’ve seen that so many times, right? But you need to watch it because someone, your wife or- … told you to do that-
Lex Fridman
To catch up
To catch up
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… or your boyfriend told you to do that. So you’re doing that, right? And you can click and move the pieces around. It’s absolutely useless, right? Like, who cares about that? First, it was done by a math teacher in high school in south of France to teach his students about Bézier curves, which is something that-
… or your boyfriend told you to do that. So you’re doing that, right? And you can click and move the pieces around. It’s absolutely useless, right? Like, who cares about that? First, it was done by a math teacher in high school in south of France to teach his students about Bézier curves, which is something that-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… everyone should know about, right? It’s very useful. But the code was clean, so it got in VLC. It was merged in 2010. Five years later, I receive an email saying, “Hello, JB. I have a problem with VLC. The puzzle is too simple.” And I was just like, “What?” And yes, the puzzle was in the UI maximums by 16 by 16, right? Only 256 pieces. And he says, “I’m sorry, but in a movie I love puzzles, this is too simple,” right? So there is a comment of me, you can check it online, which is JB changing that the dimensions are 256 by 256.
… everyone should know about, right? It’s very useful. But the code was clean, so it got in VLC. It was merged in 2010. Five years later, I receive an email saying, “Hello, JB. I have a problem with VLC. The puzzle is too simple.” And I was just like, “What?” And yes, the puzzle was in the UI maximums by 16 by 16, right? Only 256 pieces. And he says, “I’m sorry, but in a movie I love puzzles, this is too simple,” right? So there is a comment of me, you can check it online, which is JB changing that the dimensions are 256 by 256.
Lex Fridman
Right.
Right.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But my point is, so many useless features are used by a few people, right? There is a way to watch VLC movies in command line without any UI, right? It’s-
But my point is, so many useless features are used by a few people, right? There is a way to watch VLC movies in command line without any UI, right? It’s-
Lex Fridman
I saw that. You can do ASCII.
I saw that. You can do ASCII.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
ASCII art. Is it useful? Very useful. Imagine you’re debugging… imagine you’re debugging a multicast network, right? You have thousands very complex, very complex networking stack, right? You can SSH to all of the routers and put VLC on it with no UI, and you’re going to see whether it’s black or it’s not black, right? So you see if it’s all green or not all green, right? So you can see-
ASCII art. Is it useful? Very useful. Imagine you’re debugging… imagine you’re debugging a multicast network, right? You have thousands very complex, very complex networking stack, right? You can SSH to all of the routers and put VLC on it with no UI, and you’re going to see whether it’s black or it’s not black, right? So you see if it’s all green or not all green, right? So you can see-
Lex Fridman
Amazing.
Amazing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, right.
Yeah, right.
Lex Fridman
This is fun.
This is fun.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
People don’t realize there is so many things in VLC that are useful and they have users, because once you have hundreds of millions of users, you have people who use every feature.
People don’t realize there is so many things in VLC that are useful and they have users, because once you have hundreds of millions of users, you have people who use every feature.
Ultra low latency streaming
Lex Fridman
I would love to sort of zoom in and talk a little bit more about the distinction between kinda downloading a file and watching it offline versus streaming. So the complexities, the challenges of streaming. Is there something we could say about what it takes to stream files? ‘Cause we’ve been talking about codecs- … and I think a lot of that implies encoding and decoding without having to communicate- … over the network. Sure. So can you elaborate, like, what’s required to do over network stuff?
I would love to sort of zoom in and talk a little bit more about the distinction between kinda downloading a file and watching it offline versus streaming. So the complexities, the challenges of streaming. Is there something we could say about what it takes to stream files? ‘Cause we’ve been talking about codecs- … and I think a lot of that implies encoding and decoding without having to communicate- … over the network. Sure. So can you elaborate, like, what’s required to do over network stuff?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, but it is less complex than it seems compared to everything that we’ve talked about. Especially because the most complex thing is not about streaming in terms of streaming services, but it was what was done to actually broadcast through satellites. Because in most of the modern broadcasting services, you can pause and you can go on. But when you’re sending live streaming, whether it’s broadcast or live for streaming services which are live, this is much more difficult because you need to encode in real time. When you go on a satellite, you have a specific size of the link, right? You cannot have a burst-
Yeah, but it is less complex than it seems compared to everything that we’ve talked about. Especially because the most complex thing is not about streaming in terms of streaming services, but it was what was done to actually broadcast through satellites. Because in most of the modern broadcasting services, you can pause and you can go on. But when you’re sending live streaming, whether it’s broadcast or live for streaming services which are live, this is much more difficult because you need to encode in real time. When you go on a satellite, you have a specific size of the link, right? You cannot have a burst-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… of bandwidth even for a second, right? Because you don’t have the space for that in your total file. However, there is different types of challenges, which are interesting challenges, but I think they are less complex than the one we’ve seen with late ’90s and early 2000s about broadcasting and streaming through satellite.
… of bandwidth even for a second, right? Because you don’t have the space for that in your total file. However, there is different types of challenges, which are interesting challenges, but I think they are less complex than the one we’ve seen with late ’90s and early 2000s about broadcasting and streaming through satellite.
Lex Fridman
They’re different. They are control systems challenges, whereas some are more mathematical. I think that’s the difference.
They’re different. They are control systems challenges, whereas some are more mathematical. I think that’s the difference.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
In the streaming world, what you have is called what we call adaptive streaming, because the difficulty– and it’s not really a video problem, it’s mostly a CDN problem, is that you might have too many people watching the same thing at the same time, and it’s a congestion of the network, right? So your player has difficulty downloading things fast enough to play them. So what happens is that locally, the player is going to read a lower resolution- … of it. But there are some very clever algorithms to do that, but most of it is quite basic, to be honest.
In the streaming world, what you have is called what we call adaptive streaming, because the difficulty– and it’s not really a video problem, it’s mostly a CDN problem, is that you might have too many people watching the same thing at the same time, and it’s a congestion of the network, right? So your player has difficulty downloading things fast enough to play them. So what happens is that locally, the player is going to read a lower resolution- … of it. But there are some very clever algorithms to do that, but most of it is quite basic, to be honest.
Lex Fridman
Even on the buffering side, it’s pretty basic.
Even on the buffering side, it’s pretty basic.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, you start to download a segment, what we call a segment, and then you time, right? And if it takes more than 50% of the time to download a segment, you go down to… Right. And the difficulty is more about when do you go up in bandwidth, in quality. But this is not very complex to do. When you encode, you’re going to encode seven resolutions, right? And you’re going to give the bitrate. The difficulty is to have your encoder give the same bitrate, but it’s not as strict as it used to be. So-
Yeah, you start to download a segment, what we call a segment, and then you time, right? And if it takes more than 50% of the time to download a segment, you go down to… Right. And the difficulty is more about when do you go up in bandwidth, in quality. But this is not very complex to do. When you encode, you’re going to encode seven resolutions, right? And you’re going to give the bitrate. The difficulty is to have your encoder give the same bitrate, but it’s not as strict as it used to be. So-
Lex Fridman
Probably YouTube has to figure out the human psychology side of that, like how pissed off do you get when it’s like very low bitrate and how long should it wait before it increases the bitrate even though the connection is better? Because maybe the changes in the bitrate is what, like, affects you psychologically.
Probably YouTube has to figure out the human psychology side of that, like how pissed off do you get when it’s like very low bitrate and how long should it wait before it increases the bitrate even though the connection is better? Because maybe the changes in the bitrate is what, like, affects you psychologically.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, I think actually the interesting one is the audio.
No, I think actually the interesting one is the audio.
Lex Fridman
That’s true.
That’s true.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The– you can kind of notice when they move from full fat AAC to the– there are compressed versions of AAC that use spectral band replication. You can kind of see it goes a bit tinny, and that up and down is very jarring. The video side is a lot smoother, and there’s less notice. It’s really the audio you can definitely feel it from when it’s moved you from a different audio profile to one or the other. I don’t know. We’re surprisingly tolerant at skipping audio glitches. I’m surprised people I know who are not video engineers, how tolerant they are to watching sports at 30 FPS, for example, whereas it should really be 60. The world is a lot more tolerant to that, but audio people are very– There’s– It’s an immediate feedback mechanism of, “Oh, something’s changed.”
The– you can kind of notice when they move from full fat AAC to the– there are compressed versions of AAC that use spectral band replication. You can kind of see it goes a bit tinny, and that up and down is very jarring. The video side is a lot smoother, and there’s less notice. It’s really the audio you can definitely feel it from when it’s moved you from a different audio profile to one or the other. I don’t know. We’re surprisingly tolerant at skipping audio glitches. I’m surprised people I know who are not video engineers, how tolerant they are to watching sports at 30 FPS, for example, whereas it should really be 60. The world is a lot more tolerant to that, but audio people are very– There’s– It’s an immediate feedback mechanism of, “Oh, something’s changed.”
Lex Fridman
If you hear a glitch, you realize it directly. I get to fully realize that, I suppose. One of the things I’m afraid of when I listen to audio more and more, that I get to notice every single tiny detail, and that you can over-obsess when people in general are able to kinda blur their consumption. They can look past certain imperfections.
If you hear a glitch, you realize it directly. I get to fully realize that, I suppose. One of the things I’m afraid of when I listen to audio more and more, that I get to notice every single tiny detail, and that you can over-obsess when people in general are able to kinda blur their consumption. They can look past certain imperfections.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But then when you combine like an event that is, for example, a sport event that is probably going through satellite or- … somewhere else and goes to a central place for encoding, and then you need to encode this older resolution in real time. You don’t have time for QA. You need to push that to CDNs. You need to add probably DRM for protection. You need to have that over a ton of different devices. Then yes, it is complex. But– And also, like you’re in the web browser or in very much different devices that you use for television, where you had like a defined set-top box or cable box that you know where you control end-to-end. So it’s a challenge, but it’s less… I think the networking part while you agree to have 10, 20 seconds of latency, I don’t think this is very difficult.
But then when you combine like an event that is, for example, a sport event that is probably going through satellite or- … somewhere else and goes to a central place for encoding, and then you need to encode this older resolution in real time. You don’t have time for QA. You need to push that to CDNs. You need to add probably DRM for protection. You need to have that over a ton of different devices. Then yes, it is complex. But– And also, like you’re in the web browser or in very much different devices that you use for television, where you had like a defined set-top box or cable box that you know where you control end-to-end. So it’s a challenge, but it’s less… I think the networking part while you agree to have 10, 20 seconds of latency, I don’t think this is very difficult.
Lex Fridman
Speaking of networking and latency, so your new effort, as we mentioned, is Kyber, which is aimed at ultra-low latency. As you say, every millisecond counts, and you’re applying that to remote control machines like robots, drones, computers. Can you tell me about it?
Speaking of networking and latency, so your new effort, as we mentioned, is Kyber, which is aimed at ultra-low latency. As you say, every millisecond counts, and you’re applying that to remote control machines like robots, drones, computers. Can you tell me about it?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Sure. If you start from where we used to be, right? You used to use FFmpeg to encode files, right? And then we used FFmpeg and VLC to encode in streaming services, right? And then you need to go lower and lower. And the question was where up to where we can, can we go?
Sure. If you start from where we used to be, right? You used to use FFmpeg to encode files, right? And then we used FFmpeg and VLC to encode in streaming services, right? And then you need to go lower and lower. And the question was where up to where we can, can we go?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And this question is very important because there are many use cases where you need to be fast, and it’s when you have feedback interaction, right? We are not just listening to something, you’re actually controlling it, right? Because– And that’s the biggest difference compared to what we’ve done so far, is that I need video to have a feedback on something that is happening live, whether it’s a drone flying, whether it’s controlling a humanoid robot from distance, whether it’s controlling a hover, whether it’s playing a video game in the cloud gaming, because this is what I did on a previous job, right? I was CTO of a cloud gaming startup. And this is a very interesting topic because you push to the limit the network.
And this question is very important because there are many use cases where you need to be fast, and it’s when you have feedback interaction, right? We are not just listening to something, you’re actually controlling it, right? Because– And that’s the biggest difference compared to what we’ve done so far, is that I need video to have a feedback on something that is happening live, whether it’s a drone flying, whether it’s controlling a humanoid robot from distance, whether it’s controlling a hover, whether it’s playing a video game in the cloud gaming, because this is what I did on a previous job, right? I was CTO of a cloud gaming startup. And this is a very interesting topic because you push to the limit the network.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You need to care not about the quality like we’ve done on video, and we’ve talked about with H.264. You care about latency, because a millisecond is meaningful when you’re controlling a car, right? For– Well, you’ve seen, you’ve used Waymos, right? When Waymos don’t work, and that happens even if one percent of the time, there is someone that is basically remote controlling that. And this is exactly the stuff that we’re building. It’s really an SDK platform to do end-to-end control of machines.
You need to care not about the quality like we’ve done on video, and we’ve talked about with H.264. You care about latency, because a millisecond is meaningful when you’re controlling a car, right? For– Well, you’ve seen, you’ve used Waymos, right? When Waymos don’t work, and that happens even if one percent of the time, there is someone that is basically remote controlling that. And this is exactly the stuff that we’re building. It’s really an SDK platform to do end-to-end control of machines.
Lex Fridman
So the– this comes up quite a lot in a lot of different contexts in robotics. So obviously, teleoperation, teleop is becoming more and more important including for training robots via machine learning.
So the– this comes up quite a lot in a lot of different contexts in robotics. So obviously, teleoperation, teleop is becoming more and more important including for training robots via machine learning.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. And what we do is a bit different from everyone else, is that we take only one socket, one connection, which is a QUIC protocol based on UDP which is interesting because it’s done for low latency. It doesn’t have two of the, what we call the TCP head-of-line problem and the HTTP head-of-line problem. It’s ciphered by default, but on the same wire, we send multiple streams, like multiple tracks. We send audio, we send video, but we also send the commands, right? Mouse, keyboard, gamepad, and so on. And we do that while maintaining coherence, right? Synchronization. Because what people don’t realize is that all the clocks actually drift.
Yes. And what we do is a bit different from everyone else, is that we take only one socket, one connection, which is a QUIC protocol based on UDP which is interesting because it’s done for low latency. It doesn’t have two of the, what we call the TCP head-of-line problem and the HTTP head-of-line problem. It’s ciphered by default, but on the same wire, we send multiple streams, like multiple tracks. We send audio, we send video, but we also send the commands, right? Mouse, keyboard, gamepad, and so on. And we do that while maintaining coherence, right? Synchronization. Because what people don’t realize is that all the clocks actually drift.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And when you’re controlling a robot, a robot is going to have, like, two cameras, five cameras, ten cameras, a ton of sensors, GPS, and so on. And if you want to train correctly your robotic AI model, you need to have all those that are in sync and coherent. And what we’ve done, and it’s all the stuff that we learned on VLC in broadcast in real time, and MPEG-TS that Kierans know well, is that we account for clock drifting. And so when I record a Kyber stream, a robot, I am sure that it’s going to be predictive in the way you play it back. And so when you’re going to do recording and training of your AI model, you need to be sure that every time you retrain based on the data, the data is going to stay coherent. And clocks actually drift.
And when you’re controlling a robot, a robot is going to have, like, two cameras, five cameras, ten cameras, a ton of sensors, GPS, and so on. And if you want to train correctly your robotic AI model, you need to have all those that are in sync and coherent. And what we’ve done, and it’s all the stuff that we learned on VLC in broadcast in real time, and MPEG-TS that Kierans know well, is that we account for clock drifting. And so when I record a Kyber stream, a robot, I am sure that it’s going to be predictive in the way you play it back. And so when you’re going to do recording and training of your AI model, you need to be sure that every time you retrain based on the data, the data is going to stay coherent. And clocks actually drift.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Like, the existing solution works with one camera. Once you’re going to five or six, it’s more complex.
Like, the existing solution works with one camera. Once you’re going to five or six, it’s more complex.
Lex Fridman
So you wanna make sure that the visual snapshot perfectly matches the time it actually happened.
So you wanna make sure that the visual snapshot perfectly matches the time it actually happened.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Exactly. And also, if you’re going to control, right, I do something on robot, I need to be sure that it is actually happening at that precise time, right? And so we have on the server, which would be a robot, a time of, like, re-timestamping mechanism accounting for clock drift for that, right? So that’s one of the use case of Kyber to control robots. I also think, like, remote drones, remote whether it’s defense or non-defense, remote cars, remote submarines. There is many places in industry or remote surgery where the expert cannot go everywhere the machine is because it’s either dangerous or it’s too costly, right? So you allow people to have machines next to you, right?
Exactly. And also, if you’re going to control, right, I do something on robot, I need to be sure that it is actually happening at that precise time, right? And so we have on the server, which would be a robot, a time of, like, re-timestamping mechanism accounting for clock drift for that, right? So that’s one of the use case of Kyber to control robots. I also think, like, remote drones, remote whether it’s defense or non-defense, remote cars, remote submarines. There is many places in industry or remote surgery where the expert cannot go everywhere the machine is because it’s either dangerous or it’s too costly, right? So you allow people to have machines next to you, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The goal of Kyber is to make distance disappear because it’s either projection of skills or projection of power, right? So imagine we are all like— you’ve seen the Meta Ray-Ban and everyone else, right? You need to stream there, right? Because you’re not going to run anything over there, right? So you need GPU power whether it’s on a cloud, on a phone to stream that. And so all of these use cases need to be not about extremely low latency, but real-time latency for video. And so that means you need– we’re toying with the encoders so that the encoders encode a frame in four milliseconds. And Kieran with his company also goes under those type of latency, because you need to optimize at max the local latency, right?
The goal of Kyber is to make distance disappear because it’s either projection of skills or projection of power, right? So imagine we are all like— you’ve seen the Meta Ray-Ban and everyone else, right? You need to stream there, right? Because you’re not going to run anything over there, right? So you need GPU power whether it’s on a cloud, on a phone to stream that. And so all of these use cases need to be not about extremely low latency, but real-time latency for video. And so that means you need– we’re toying with the encoders so that the encoders encode a frame in four milliseconds. And Kieran with his company also goes under those type of latency, because you need to optimize at max the local latency, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Because it’s the decoder, the encoder and so on. Because this time is going to be added to your networking time. And it’s not just about low latency, it’s also about, like, reliability. We do clever things like forward error correction, right? So forward error correction is you over-transmit a bit of data, right, a few percent and while over-transmit, you’re allowed to lose some packets. Because all of that is very difficult over an internet network where you’re going to do things very far away. And if you check that all packets are delivered, you add a ton of latency. If you don’t want latency, what we do is that we over-transmit some data that you can reconstruct on the client side when there is things that are broken, right?
Because it’s the decoder, the encoder and so on. Because this time is going to be added to your networking time. And it’s not just about low latency, it’s also about, like, reliability. We do clever things like forward error correction, right? So forward error correction is you over-transmit a bit of data, right, a few percent and while over-transmit, you’re allowed to lose some packets. Because all of that is very difficult over an internet network where you’re going to do things very far away. And if you check that all packets are delivered, you add a ton of latency. If you don’t want latency, what we do is that we over-transmit some data that you can reconstruct on the client side when there is things that are broken, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So and a few days, weeks ago, we were doing the demo around Las Vegas for the CES about— we had a rover that is fully 3D printed. It’s very simple. It’s a car, right? It’s a small car with a telescopic arm, and it was actually controlled from France, right? And the video was with a webcam and a very small server, right? A small PCB was basically running and send that to someone that is on the other side of the planet. And so there is so many use cases. You can also think about having AI who are going to control many drones and so on. And technically, we need to be amazing in video, we need to be amazing at networking, we need to care about any milliseconds in networking, in encoding time, in decoding time, and also you need to integrate very low level.
So and a few days, weeks ago, we were doing the demo around Las Vegas for the CES about— we had a rover that is fully 3D printed. It’s very simple. It’s a car, right? It’s a small car with a telescopic arm, and it was actually controlled from France, right? And the video was with a webcam and a very small server, right? A small PCB was basically running and send that to someone that is on the other side of the planet. And so there is so many use cases. You can also think about having AI who are going to control many drones and so on. And technically, we need to be amazing in video, we need to be amazing at networking, we need to care about any milliseconds in networking, in encoding time, in decoding time, and also you need to integrate very low level.
Lex Fridman
So sync everything together well. But how– Like, what kind of latency can you get to? Like, why– When you say milliseconds, what’s the goal?
So sync everything together well. But how– Like, what kind of latency can you get to? Like, why– When you say milliseconds, what’s the goal?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So my goal is four milliseconds glass-to-glass latency.
So my goal is four milliseconds glass-to-glass latency.
Lex Fridman
What’s glass-to-glass mean?
What’s glass-to-glass mean?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So it’s easy, right? You have a computer which is running a program, right? Probably a video game, and this one is actually running, right? It could be– it’s an example of a robot, right? And you have the replicate that is- … done through the network. And you want, if you take a one thousand hertz camera, you can take a picture, and you want that to be at four milliseconds. Four milliseconds means two hundred and forty hertz, right?
So it’s easy, right? You have a computer which is running a program, right? Probably a video game, and this one is actually running, right? It could be– it’s an example of a robot, right? And you have the replicate that is- … done through the network. And you want, if you take a one thousand hertz camera, you can take a picture, and you want that to be at four milliseconds. Four milliseconds means two hundred and forty hertz, right?
Lex Fridman
Yes. Nuts.
Yes. Nuts.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So far we achieve seven milliseconds from a Windows to Windows or Windows to Mac. And if you look in the timing, there is around three point five milliseconds inside the NVIDIA hardware encoder and around two milliseconds on the Intel decoder, right? So, like, the encoder plus the decoder is already six milliseconds, right? So in order to go down, we need either to have some other type of codecs or some better encoder that are faster. But four milliseconds would be the grail.
So far we achieve seven milliseconds from a Windows to Windows or Windows to Mac. And if you look in the timing, there is around three point five milliseconds inside the NVIDIA hardware encoder and around two milliseconds on the Intel decoder, right? So, like, the encoder plus the decoder is already six milliseconds, right? So in order to go down, we need either to have some other type of codecs or some better encoder that are faster. But four milliseconds would be the grail.
Lex Fridman
That’s pretty nuts. I love it, though. I don’t think anyone’s ever achieved that, right? That’s fast.
That’s pretty nuts. I love it, though. I don’t think anyone’s ever achieved that, right? That’s fast.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You can achieve that with custom hardware- … with SDI, with professional hardware. But I want that to work over the internet. I want that to work with any robots where you’re going to have a small Jetson Nano in it or a N150, right? I want that because there is going to be millions of robots or- … drones are just rolling robots or flying robots or swimming robots, right? It’s just you, a machine that you control. And in order… Either you need to teleoperate them or when everything will be fully autonomous, you need to teleobserve them, right? You need to check what’s happening.
You can achieve that with custom hardware- … with SDI, with professional hardware. But I want that to work over the internet. I want that to work with any robots where you’re going to have a small Jetson Nano in it or a N150, right? I want that because there is going to be millions of robots or- … drones are just rolling robots or flying robots or swimming robots, right? It’s just you, a machine that you control. And in order… Either you need to teleoperate them or when everything will be fully autonomous, you need to teleobserve them, right? You need to check what’s happening.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And in my view, in the future, like, all those remote cars will be teleobserved by an AI model, which is just going to say, “Well, everything is good.” And when it’s not good, say, “Hey, there is a problem,” and then you have an operator, right? And this is going to be about safety, right? When you have your humanoid taking care of your grandma or my grandma, I want to be sure that everything goes well, and I’m not in those type of horrible scenarios where the robot is dangerous. Or when I’m driving, I want, like, the car to stop when it should stop, and if needed, someone takes care of that, right? And so there is so many cases, scenarios about real time, and so the goal of Kyber is to make real time control of machine. Distance disappears.
And in my view, in the future, like, all those remote cars will be teleobserved by an AI model, which is just going to say, “Well, everything is good.” And when it’s not good, say, “Hey, there is a problem,” and then you have an operator, right? And this is going to be about safety, right? When you have your humanoid taking care of your grandma or my grandma, I want to be sure that everything goes well, and I’m not in those type of horrible scenarios where the robot is dangerous. Or when I’m driving, I want, like, the car to stop when it should stop, and if needed, someone takes care of that, right? And so there is so many cases, scenarios about real time, and so the goal of Kyber is to make real time control of machine. Distance disappears.
Lex Fridman
It’s incredible. And some of the same technology, some of the same ideas that we’re talking about is connected to what you’re doing.
It’s incredible. And some of the same technology, some of the same ideas that we’re talking about is connected to what you’re doing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And for me, it’s amazingly challenging, right? Because I would say that on video I’m doing okay, but networking I have so much more to learn, right? It’s about, like, congestion protocols, bitrate adaptation in real time. But it’s quite funny. And so I created this project and we have fundraised in the US, of course. But it’s open source, right? This is important, right? Like, we’ve not said that, right? But everything on Kyber is open source.
And for me, it’s amazingly challenging, right? Because I would say that on video I’m doing okay, but networking I have so much more to learn, right? It’s about, like, congestion protocols, bitrate adaptation in real time. But it’s quite funny. And so I created this project and we have fundraised in the US, of course. But it’s open source, right? This is important, right? Like, we’ve not said that, right? But everything on Kyber is open source.
Lex Fridman
So how do you make money?
So how do you make money?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It’s a dual license, commercial and AGPL, right? You remember what you said- … about licenses. Basically, if you want to use Kyber in your product, you must have your full product open source. If you want to use this amazing technology but not open source, you pay the commercial license, right? So the small people or the hobbyist and the very small guys who want to do that, they can use the technology. They build something that is open source and cool.
It’s a dual license, commercial and AGPL, right? You remember what you said- … about licenses. Basically, if you want to use Kyber in your product, you must have your full product open source. If you want to use this amazing technology but not open source, you pay the commercial license, right? So the small people or the hobbyist and the very small guys who want to do that, they can use the technology. They build something that is open source and cool.
Lex Fridman
That’s awesome.
That’s awesome.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And if you’re a large company, you’re going to have the support, all the IP, the right modification, and so on. So yeah, it’s really cool and also I’m building robots, and I love that, right? Like we have– Like the rover we have is 3D printed. We are finishing a demo where it’s an actual wing, right? Like a type of drone wings that is also fully 3D printed. We are trying to do a sailboat that is 3D printed. And we’ll work on some humanoids. Of course, they are not going to be very good robots, right? It’s not our job, but we’re here for everyone to make robots. Cool.
And if you’re a large company, you’re going to have the support, all the IP, the right modification, and so on. So yeah, it’s really cool and also I’m building robots, and I love that, right? Like we have– Like the rover we have is 3D printed. We are finishing a demo where it’s an actual wing, right? Like a type of drone wings that is also fully 3D printed. We are trying to do a sailboat that is 3D printed. And we’ll work on some humanoids. Of course, they are not going to be very good robots, right? It’s not our job, but we’re here for everyone to make robots. Cool.
AV2 codec and video patents
Lex Fridman
Ah, you’re talking to the right guy. I love robots. There’s a bunch of them upstairs. And teleop is gonna be really, really important, especially as the number of robots scales across the world. So 100%. Let’s talk about the future of multimedia. FFmpeg, VLC, but some of the codecs, we didn’t really mention AV2. So can we just lay out what is AV2? What is the hope for it? What is H.265, H.266?
Ah, you’re talking to the right guy. I love robots. There’s a bunch of them upstairs. And teleop is gonna be really, really important, especially as the number of robots scales across the world. So 100%. Let’s talk about the future of multimedia. FFmpeg, VLC, but some of the codecs, we didn’t really mention AV2. So can we just lay out what is AV2? What is the hope for it? What is H.265, H.266?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So AV1 is this codec that is done by the Alliance for Open Media, right? Where there is Google, Netflix, Amazon, Apple VideoLAN, where we try to make a royalty-free very good codec, right? And now it’s being deployed. But actually, the codec was finished in 2018, but a codec takes years to be used in wide scenarios, right? So AV2 is the next generation of this codec. It’s 30% better, right? So if you keep the same quality, you get 30% bandwidth reduction compared to AV1.
So AV1 is this codec that is done by the Alliance for Open Media, right? Where there is Google, Netflix, Amazon, Apple VideoLAN, where we try to make a royalty-free very good codec, right? And now it’s being deployed. But actually, the codec was finished in 2018, but a codec takes years to be used in wide scenarios, right? So AV2 is the next generation of this codec. It’s 30% better, right? So if you keep the same quality, you get 30% bandwidth reduction compared to AV1.
Lex Fridman
What’s the connection with the dav1d and AV2?
What’s the connection with the dav1d and AV2?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
We are going to do a dav1d 2, right? That I call Devid, because de is two in French.
We are going to do a dav1d 2, right? That I call Devid, because de is two in French.
Lex Fridman
Ah, well done.
Ah, well done.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… And you have to know that dav1d is an actual what we call recursive acronym, right? Because it means D, dav1d, is an AV1 decoder, right? So
… And you have to know that dav1d is an actual what we call recursive acronym, right? Because it means D, dav1d, is an AV1 decoder, right? So
Lex Fridman
Oh, nice. Nice. I didn’t even think of that. And people should know that dav1d is spelled with a one.
Oh, nice. Nice. I didn’t even think of that. And people should know that dav1d is spelled with a one.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. It’s… And so dav1d 2-
Yes. It’s… And so dav1d 2-
Lex Fridman
It’s gonna be spelled with a two. Please tell us
It’s gonna be spelled with a two. Please tell us
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… is going to be D-A-V-2-D. Sorry, I don’t know how you pronounce that. And again, we did a demo at the CES of VLC running the first demo of AV2.
… is going to be D-A-V-2-D. Sorry, I don’t know how you pronounce that. And again, we did a demo at the CES of VLC running the first demo of AV2.
Lex Fridman
So can you clarify to me the specification of AV2? And then the encoding and the decoding
So can you clarify to me the specification of AV2? And then the encoding and the decoding
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Sure. So the specification is like the document which explains how the codec is supposed to work, right?
Sure. So the specification is like the document which explains how the codec is supposed to work, right?
Lex Fridman
And that’s really AV2.
And that’s really AV2.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
That is AV2, like H.264. Right? Then you have an encoder. The current encoder is called AVM, and there will probably be other encoders, probably one called SVT-AV2, and those are the encoder. The same way x264 is an encoder to H.264, the same way that x265 is an encoder for the H.265 codec. And the decoders for AV1 is dav1d. The decoder for AV2 is dav2d. The decoder for H.264 is ffh264 inside FFmpeg. The decoder for HEVC is ffhevc inside FFmpeg. And there is a next generation codec from the MPEG world after H.264, H.265. There is one that is called H.266, also known as VVC.
That is AV2, like H.264. Right? Then you have an encoder. The current encoder is called AVM, and there will probably be other encoders, probably one called SVT-AV2, and those are the encoder. The same way x264 is an encoder to H.264, the same way that x265 is an encoder for the H.265 codec. And the decoders for AV1 is dav1d. The decoder for AV2 is dav2d. The decoder for H.264 is ffh264 inside FFmpeg. The decoder for HEVC is ffhevc inside FFmpeg. And there is a next generation codec from the MPEG world after H.264, H.265. There is one that is called H.266, also known as VVC.
Lex Fridman
So HEVC is H.265. VVC is H.266. Why is H.266 super sexy- … and so much better?
So HEVC is H.265. VVC is H.266. Why is H.266 super sexy- … and so much better?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So the question often we have is why are there two names? Because most of the time it is a joint work from the ISO world and the ITU, which is the International Telecommunication Union.
So the question often we have is why are there two names? Because most of the time it is a joint work from the ISO world and the ITU, which is the International Telecommunication Union.
Lex Fridman
These are these two regulatory bodies.
These are these two regulatory bodies.
Kieran Kunhya
No, one is a private entity and one is the United Nations.
No, one is a private entity and one is the United Nations.
Lex Fridman
Which one is the private?
Which one is the private?
Kieran Kunhya
ISO is private.
ISO is private.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
In theory, H.264 is MPEG-4 Part 10, H.264/AVC. And this is the full name.
In theory, H.264 is MPEG-4 Part 10, H.264/AVC. And this is the full name.
Lex Fridman
Nice.
Nice.
Kieran Kunhya
So it’s the concatenation of the ISO name and the ITU name- … even though they work together. This is, this is politics, historical, you know— … gotcha.
So it’s the concatenation of the ISO name and the ITU name- … even though they work together. This is, this is politics, historical, you know— … gotcha.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And for HEVC, it’s MPEG-H, H.265, HEVC.
And for HEVC, it’s MPEG-H, H.265, HEVC.
Lex Fridman
Got it.
Got it.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And there is H.266, which is also named VVC.
And there is H.266, which is also named VVC.
Lex Fridman
Is there a high-level thing to say about the improvement of-
Is there a high-level thing to say about the improvement of-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
30% each generation is the best summary.
30% each generation is the best summary.
Lex Fridman
This is true both for the AV- … codecs and the- … H.264, 5, 6.
This is true both for the AV- … codecs and the- … H.264, 5, 6.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So the professionals who are listening to us are going to kill us because they say, “No, it’s 35%, 25%—
So the professionals who are listening to us are going to kill us because they say, “No, it’s 35%, 25%—
Kieran Kunhya
“No, it’s 50, 60.”
“No, it’s 50, 60.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… it’s 50,” blah, blah, blah. But globally, you need to know that HEVC is 30% better than H.264. H.266 is 30% better than H.265 because there are so many cases and so many scenarios. For example, there are cases, especially for screen recording, where the gains are humongous because you arrive, you have the right tool that is done for that. And so for a specific video, a new generation is going to give you 70% gain or 80% gain. Right? But there used to be a ton more codecs, but now the two main families for transmission are H.264, H.265, H.266, and the other is AV1, AV2.
… it’s 50,” blah, blah, blah. But globally, you need to know that HEVC is 30% better than H.264. H.266 is 30% better than H.265 because there are so many cases and so many scenarios. For example, there are cases, especially for screen recording, where the gains are humongous because you arrive, you have the right tool that is done for that. And so for a specific video, a new generation is going to give you 70% gain or 80% gain. Right? But there used to be a ton more codecs, but now the two main families for transmission are H.264, H.265, H.266, and the other is AV1, AV2.
Lex Fridman
And I guess the major difference would be the cost of encoding.
And I guess the major difference would be the cost of encoding.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, and the royalty of the patents. And this is the reasons why you see the AV version of codecs, is because they try to be as royalty-free—which means no cost for the patents—as much as possible. Because what you need to know, and we’ve not talked about that so far, is that multimedia is what we call a patent minefield. There are two places where you have the most patents. It’s everything related to 3G, 4G, 5G, RF, and multimedia. Because it’s very mathematical, and you can get great gains and so on. So Google and Meta and Netflix wanted something where it was royalty-free. There are people who said that they have patents outside, but they are fringe patents, right? So it’s mostly true that it’s patent-free.
Yes, and the royalty of the patents. And this is the reasons why you see the AV version of codecs, is because they try to be as royalty-free—which means no cost for the patents—as much as possible. Because what you need to know, and we’ve not talked about that so far, is that multimedia is what we call a patent minefield. There are two places where you have the most patents. It’s everything related to 3G, 4G, 5G, RF, and multimedia. Because it’s very mathematical, and you can get great gains and so on. So Google and Meta and Netflix wanted something where it was royalty-free. There are people who said that they have patents outside, but they are fringe patents, right? So it’s mostly true that it’s patent-free.
Kieran Kunhya
Oh, you should extend. Patent, patent checking was done as part of the standardization process in AV1, AV2, whereas patents are not even discussed in the MPEG world.
Oh, you should extend. Patent, patent checking was done as part of the standardization process in AV1, AV2, whereas patents are not even discussed in the MPEG world.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The MPEG world.
The MPEG world.
Kieran Kunhya
Patents are off-topic completely.
Patents are off-topic completely.
Lex Fridman
Can you educate me on the patent side?
Can you educate me on the patent side?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So usually, MPEG does a format, right? And then everyone comes around and says, “Well, I have all those patents for the format,” and they do usually a union called what’s called MPEG LA, MPEG Licensing Association. And you put all your patents in, and then you ask everyone who’s using this format to pay for it.
So usually, MPEG does a format, right? And then everyone comes around and says, “Well, I have all those patents for the format,” and they do usually a union called what’s called MPEG LA, MPEG Licensing Association. And you put all your patents in, and then you ask everyone who’s using this format to pay for it.
Lex Fridman
Wait, can you elaborate? What does it mean to have a patent for a codec? Why are there many patents?
Wait, can you elaborate? What does it mean to have a patent for a codec? Why are there many patents?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Imagine I’m doing something where I’m going to def— instead of doing blocks which are square, I’m going to do rectangles, right?
Imagine I’m doing something where I’m going to def— instead of doing blocks which are square, I’m going to do rectangles, right?
Lex Fridman
Oh, so every idea- … somebody patents it. Oh, man. Oh, man. People and their… How many lawyers are-
Oh, so every idea- … somebody patents it. Oh, man. Oh, man. People and their… How many lawyers are-
Kieran Kunhya
I mean, it pays for a lot of lawyers, right? Like-
I mean, it pays for a lot of lawyers, right? Like-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The biggest issue is not the following, right? Because at time of H.264, the patents were, let’s call it, like, sane. But there was so much money in that— … that for HEVC, a lot—there were a ton of things that were pushed inside the specification, which are not useful in 99.9% of the time, but so just one could add a patent on it. And so it became that for HEVC licensing, there was MPEG LA plus another patent pool called HEVC Advance. Plus-
The biggest issue is not the following, right? Because at time of H.264, the patents were, let’s call it, like, sane. But there was so much money in that— … that for HEVC, a lot—there were a ton of things that were pushed inside the specification, which are not useful in 99.9% of the time, but so just one could add a patent on it. And so it became that for HEVC licensing, there was MPEG LA plus another patent pool called HEVC Advance. Plus-
Kieran Kunhya
That one
That one
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… I think Nokia was outside of the patent pool.
… I think Nokia was outside of the patent pool.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, a few of them are outside, and some other one that’s-
Yeah, a few of them are outside, and some other one that’s-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so it was impossible to license, right? And I think that several months ago, HP decided that they were going to remove support from HEVC in their Windows laptops because the, the cost was increasing of those patents. And it arrived—
And so it was impossible to license, right? And I think that several months ago, HP decided that they were going to remove support from HEVC in their Windows laptops because the, the cost was increasing of those patents. And it arrived—
Lex Fridman
Nice
Nice
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… where a point where—And there was uncapped pay. And so for YouTube or Netflix, we could talk about hundreds of millions of dollars of licensing for patents per year. And they said, “You know what? At hundred million per year, you know, I could create my own codec,” and this is what they did. And so that’s why we have the Alliance for Open Media, where we are part of, that created AV1 and creates AV2. We create also audio codecs. But yes. So the main difference would be that, and because you need to work around the patents or go do some things that are not patented, a lot of things are different, right? The basic things that were done in MPEG-2 thirty years ago are, of course, out of patents. But so for example, there is things like a golden frame, a S-frame, or, or different type of—
… where a point where—And there was uncapped pay. And so for YouTube or Netflix, we could talk about hundreds of millions of dollars of licensing for patents per year. And they said, “You know what? At hundred million per year, you know, I could create my own codec,” and this is what they did. And so that’s why we have the Alliance for Open Media, where we are part of, that created AV1 and creates AV2. We create also audio codecs. But yes. So the main difference would be that, and because you need to work around the patents or go do some things that are not patented, a lot of things are different, right? The basic things that were done in MPEG-2 thirty years ago are, of course, out of patents. But so for example, there is things like a golden frame, a S-frame, or, or different type of—
Lex Fridman
These are all patented ideas.
These are all patented ideas.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, no, it’s I can’t believe it’s not butter. I can’t believe it’s not a B-frame. It’s, I mean, I mean, it’s kind of what it is. In some ways, it’s like a-
Yeah, no, it’s I can’t believe it’s not butter. I can’t believe it’s not a B-frame. It’s, I mean, I mean, it’s kind of what it is. In some ways, it’s like a-
Lex Fridman
Oh, so it’s a different variant of a B-frame.
Oh, so it’s a different variant of a B-frame.
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, that’s to try and sidestep. Things like that.
Yeah, that’s to try and sidestep. Things like that.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so you need to have double creativity, right? Creativity in terms of being more efficient, but creativity of being sure that you don’t infringe existing patents. And so, for example, VVC is, has all the patents of HEVC plus new ones, right? It’s why AV2 tries to be as royalty-free as possible.
And so you need to have double creativity, right? Creativity in terms of being more efficient, but creativity of being sure that you don’t infringe existing patents. And so, for example, VVC is, has all the patents of HEVC plus new ones, right? It’s why AV2 tries to be as royalty-free as possible.
Lex Fridman
To what degree does FFmpeg and VLC have to think about this kind of stuff?
To what degree does FFmpeg and VLC have to think about this kind of stuff?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
We don’t, and one of the reasons why VLC was in France is that France rejects software patents. So most of those patents are illegal in France because I once made the calculus that if I had to pay all the licensing fee for VLC, I needed to pay more than two hundred euros per user, right? It’s the same in dollars. But most of those patents are invalid in Europe because those are called—it’s basically mathematical patents or idea patents, and they are not valid in Europe.
We don’t, and one of the reasons why VLC was in France is that France rejects software patents. So most of those patents are illegal in France because I once made the calculus that if I had to pay all the licensing fee for VLC, I needed to pay more than two hundred euros per user, right? It’s the same in dollars. But most of those patents are invalid in Europe because those are called—it’s basically mathematical patents or idea patents, and they are not valid in Europe.
VLC backdoors
Lex Fridman
Let me just at a high level, just out of curiosity. So the meme online and the interwebs on X and Twitter and so on, and my own—I have friends in Europe—this, the sense is that Europe is not friendly to entrepreneurship. They over-regulate, there’s too much bureaucracy, and so on. Is, is there any- anything positive to say? Is there hope for entrepreneurship- … in the future of Europe? Is Europe over from a tech perspective?
Let me just at a high level, just out of curiosity. So the meme online and the interwebs on X and Twitter and so on, and my own—I have friends in Europe—this, the sense is that Europe is not friendly to entrepreneurship. They over-regulate, there’s too much bureaucracy, and so on. Is, is there any- anything positive to say? Is there hope for entrepreneurship- … in the future of Europe? Is Europe over from a tech perspective?
Kieran Kunhya
Just, just look at the two of us, right? It’s, it’s notable that there’s two people from the European continent on this podcast talking about video. It’s fair to say the community is weighted heavily.
Just, just look at the two of us, right? It’s, it’s notable that there’s two people from the European continent on this podcast talking about video. It’s fair to say the community is weighted heavily.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
What you probably don’t see yet is that there is a new generation of entrepreneurs in Europe and mostly in France. UK has done it since a long time because, well, it’s more—it’s more Anglo-Saxon type of business. But especially like what happened in France, and of course, sometimes a bit overdone with everything called French Tech, but today, most of the people who come on the market want to create startups. Fifteen years ago, it wasn’t the case. Everyone wanted to work on big companies because when you failed in France, for example, twenty years ago, fifteen years ago, and you destroy your company, which is normal for a startup, right? You were not allowed to create a new company, right? There was a lot of stigma. The stigma is gone.
What you probably don’t see yet is that there is a new generation of entrepreneurs in Europe and mostly in France. UK has done it since a long time because, well, it’s more—it’s more Anglo-Saxon type of business. But especially like what happened in France, and of course, sometimes a bit overdone with everything called French Tech, but today, most of the people who come on the market want to create startups. Fifteen years ago, it wasn’t the case. Everyone wanted to work on big companies because when you failed in France, for example, twenty years ago, fifteen years ago, and you destroy your company, which is normal for a startup, right? You were not allowed to create a new company, right? There was a lot of stigma. The stigma is gone.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… there is so many things happening on AI in France and so on, right? So there is, sure, over-regulations. I know that, right? I’m an entrepreneur. But it has some good things also.
… there is so many things happening on AI in France and so on, right? So there is, sure, over-regulations. I know that, right? I’m an entrepreneur. But it has some good things also.
Lex Fridman
I mean, is there some paralyzing aspects? You know, if I look at, at the case of somebody I’ve become close with, Pavel Durov, you know, he was uh, blamed directly by the French government for the kind of things his, quote, “platform” was hosting. Uh, I could see the same kind of stuff basically, just as an example, VLC being blamed for the kind of videos that people are watching.
I mean, is there some paralyzing aspects? You know, if I look at, at the case of somebody I’ve become close with, Pavel Durov, you know, he was uh, blamed directly by the French government for the kind of things his, quote, “platform” was hosting. Uh, I could see the same kind of stuff basically, just as an example, VLC being blamed for the kind of videos that people are watching.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But they tried, right? Like we had issues. Like we-
But they tried, right? Like we had issues. Like we-
Lex Fridman
I mean, is that, that’s the pressure that people worry about because if you have to think about that kind of stuff when you’re kind of just obsessed about-
I mean, is that, that’s the pressure that people worry about because if you have to think about that kind of stuff when you’re kind of just obsessed about-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, you don’t think about it- … and that’s, that’s okay, right? Like-
No, you don’t think about it- … and that’s, that’s okay, right? Like-
Lex Fridman
But what if they come in? When, what if they show up and-
But what if they come in? When, what if they show up and-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There is no office. VideoLAN doesn’t have an office.
There is no office. VideoLAN doesn’t have an office.
Lex Fridman
I mean, this is what happened with Pavel. They arrested him, right? So arrested him for particular videos or, or a particular content that’s being shared on the platform.
I mean, this is what happened with Pavel. They arrested him, right? So arrested him for particular videos or, or a particular content that’s being shared on the platform.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Sure. I don’t have any platform. Everything is on the client side.
Sure. I don’t have any platform. Everything is on the client side.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, but they’re, they can still arrest you.
Yeah, but they’re, they can still arrest you.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
On what ground? I’m not sharing anything. I’m not– The content doesn’t go through my stuff.
On what ground? I’m not sharing anything. I’m not– The content doesn’t go through my stuff.
Lex Fridman
For sure, but it’s still lawyer fees. That’s the problem.
For sure, but it’s still lawyer fees. That’s the problem.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, that’s correct.
Yes, that’s correct.
Lex Fridman
It’s paperwork. So like, actually, if you had infinite trillions of dollars you would win easily because you’re on the right side. But the thing is, there is a degree to which they suffocate you with paperwork. That’s the downside of bureaucracy, through paperwork, through process. You know, it’s the Kafkaesque thing.
It’s paperwork. So like, actually, if you had infinite trillions of dollars you would win easily because you’re on the right side. But the thing is, there is a degree to which they suffocate you with paperwork. That’s the downside of bureaucracy, through paperwork, through process. You know, it’s the Kafkaesque thing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You have to realize that one of the good things, for example in France or most of Europe, is that the—Answering to a court order does not make you bankrupt, right? It’s not like in the US, where it can actually bankrupt you, right? There is—The way the law system works is that, like I receive lawyers’ letters every week, right? And I can tell you that the cost of lawyer fees for VideoLAN is less than ten thousand dollars per year, right? Right? So that’s not really scary.
You have to realize that one of the good things, for example in France or most of Europe, is that the—Answering to a court order does not make you bankrupt, right? It’s not like in the US, where it can actually bankrupt you, right? There is—The way the law system works is that, like I receive lawyers’ letters every week, right? And I can tell you that the cost of lawyer fees for VideoLAN is less than ten thousand dollars per year, right? Right? So that’s not really scary.
Lex Fridman
I mean, similar with Pavel. The intelligence agencies tried to like say, “Can you put a backdoor in VLC?”
I mean, similar with Pavel. The intelligence agencies tried to like say, “Can you put a backdoor in VLC?”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. Two of them.
Yes. Two of them.
Lex Fridman
What, what do you say?
What, what do you say?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No. Well, I was a lot less polite.
No. Well, I was a lot less polite.
Lex Fridman
I see… Yeah, yeah. You’re basically saying, “Hell no.”
I see… Yeah, yeah. You’re basically saying, “Hell no.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Like, if we had to compromise our software, we would shut it down. This is clear.
Like, if we had to compromise our software, we would shut it down. This is clear.
Lex Fridman
And what’s the definition of compromise? Like allowing a government to do a backdoor-
And what’s the definition of compromise? Like allowing a government to do a backdoor-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There is no code that gets into VLC that we don’t control, and the way we compile VLC, you would call me completely paranoid. Like, we compile on boxes that are offline, where we start by compiling the compiler. We do everything offline on places that have never been connected to the internet. We— The way we do signing, there is double signature. And especially because, for example, we’ve seen, and we believe it’s a governmental agency that is not from the Western world who tried to push a fake binary into our own servers and that scared us a lot. And VideoLAN is open source. How can you kill it? Like, I move to where? I move to Malta.
There is no code that gets into VLC that we don’t control, and the way we compile VLC, you would call me completely paranoid. Like, we compile on boxes that are offline, where we start by compiling the compiler. We do everything offline on places that have never been connected to the internet. We— The way we do signing, there is double signature. And especially because, for example, we’ve seen, and we believe it’s a governmental agency that is not from the Western world who tried to push a fake binary into our own servers and that scared us a lot. And VideoLAN is open source. How can you kill it? Like, I move to where? I move to Malta.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
I move to, I don’t know, Cayman Islands, and I change the domain name, and I start again, right? Like, VLC is a tool. It’s a tool that is going to help people doing things. We are not a platform. And for patents, well, I’m sorry, but most of the patents… Like, you shouldn’t be able to patent math and matrices. Like, this is wrong.
I move to, I don’t know, Cayman Islands, and I change the domain name, and I start again, right? Like, VLC is a tool. It’s a tool that is going to help people doing things. We are not a platform. And for patents, well, I’m sorry, but most of the patents… Like, you shouldn’t be able to patent math and matrices. Like, this is wrong.
Lex Fridman
So does VLC ever, like, censor the kind of videos it can play and not based on the content of the video?
So does VLC ever, like, censor the kind of videos it can play and not based on the content of the video?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, never. We never do that. Because VLC is completely offline. It doesn’t talk to any server, so we don’t know anything that you’re using the software for.
No, never. We never do that. Because VLC is completely offline. It doesn’t talk to any server, so we don’t know anything that you’re using the software for.
Lex Fridman
So again, there’s no government that can say, you know, like the French government come in and say, “We don’t want… I think anime is destructive to society. We don’t want any anime; not allowed to be…”
So again, there’s no government that can say, you know, like the French government come in and say, “We don’t want… I think anime is destructive to society. We don’t want any anime; not allowed to be…”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, they cannot, they cannot do that. And also what they tried is to say, “Hey, I want to know if that person watched that type of video.” And the answer is like, “No idea.”
No, they cannot, they cannot do that. And also what they tried is to say, “Hey, I want to know if that person watched that type of video.” And the answer is like, “No idea.”
Lex Fridman
So no on that too. So for surveillance, no.
So no on that too. So for surveillance, no.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, no, because the only infrastructure we have is a downloading infrastructure. There is no telemetry in VLC, right?
No, no, because the only infrastructure we have is a downloading infrastructure. There is no telemetry in VLC, right?
Lex Fridman
It would be difficult ’cause of the international nature. It would be difficult for you to incorporate that code because there would be someone in the UK and someone in Germany and someone in the US as part of VideoLAN who’d be able to see that. It would be extremely difficult.
It would be difficult ’cause of the international nature. It would be difficult for you to incorporate that code because there would be someone in the UK and someone in Germany and someone in the US as part of VideoLAN who’d be able to see that. It would be extremely difficult.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
The only thing that we can do, which happened, is like we had the issue— We had the case with some police in the US who said, “We have a murder case,” right? And the file is destructed or doesn’t play in that version of VLC. Could you help us?” Right? We never have access to the video. It’s like a normal support, right?
The only thing that we can do, which happened, is like we had the issue— We had the case with some police in the US who said, “We have a murder case,” right? And the file is destructed or doesn’t play in that version of VLC. Could you help us?” Right? We never have access to the video. It’s like a normal support, right?
Lex Fridman
Oh, it’s really about playing the file?
Oh, it’s really about playing the file?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. And, like, I remember in the middle of the Afghan War, right? I received an email from someone in the army, right? I don’t remember the grades, right? It was just like, “We have a big issue with the latest version of VLC because it doesn’t play correctly the file on an RTSP server that we have where there is all the movies.” And he says VLC is very important for the morale on the troop on the ground, right? Because at night I think it might be boring, right? So they have a collection of videos to watch or movies over there, right? So and, and of course I did an update, and I broke some support of RTSP, right? So I gave them another version just for them, right? Because it was important.
Yes. And, like, I remember in the middle of the Afghan War, right? I received an email from someone in the army, right? I don’t remember the grades, right? It was just like, “We have a big issue with the latest version of VLC because it doesn’t play correctly the file on an RTSP server that we have where there is all the movies.” And he says VLC is very important for the morale on the troop on the ground, right? Because at night I think it might be boring, right? So they have a collection of videos to watch or movies over there, right? So and, and of course I did an update, and I broke some support of RTSP, right? So I gave them another version just for them, right? Because it was important.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And because VLC is completely open source, I think it is allowed on the US Army laptops, right? Because the, I guess someone in the US military actually looked at it and say, “Well, okay, this is okay,” right? And the way we document how we process, that was okay, right? So the only way we work with authorities is to help them doing support.
And because VLC is completely open source, I think it is allowed on the US Army laptops, right? Because the, I guess someone in the US military actually looked at it and say, “Well, okay, this is okay,” right? And the way we document how we process, that was okay, right? So the only way we work with authorities is to help them doing support.
Lex Fridman
That’s amazing. That’s an amazing story. Yeah.
That’s amazing. That’s an amazing story. Yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
We don’t see anything happening on how people use VLC, and this is strong.
We don’t see anything happening on how people use VLC, and this is strong.
Lex Fridman
Do you feel the stress of this? So first of all, millions of people using it. Second of all, the military using it. Maybe sometimes pressure from governments. Does that… That’s a small team, right?
Do you feel the stress of this? So first of all, millions of people using it. Second of all, the military using it. Maybe sometimes pressure from governments. Does that… That’s a small team, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yeah, but-
Yeah, but-
Lex Fridman
How big is VLC core… how many?
How big is VLC core… how many?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Six, eight. But everything legally is only me. Everything that is legal is only me.
Six, eight. But everything legally is only me. Everything that is legal is only me.
Lex Fridman
You’re not stressed about this?
You’re not stressed about this?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
I used to stress about that a lot. But the thing is, we’re doing what we can for everyone, for the greater good. We work so that we make some extremely complex technology easy for everyone. We’re a tool, and every tool is going to be used for great things and for bad things, right? You cannot blame a tool, I think. And this is, like, very important for us. I used to be in a lot of stress. I’m not anymore, right?
I used to stress about that a lot. But the thing is, we’re doing what we can for everyone, for the greater good. We work so that we make some extremely complex technology easy for everyone. We’re a tool, and every tool is going to be used for great things and for bad things, right? You cannot blame a tool, I think. And this is, like, very important for us. I used to be in a lot of stress. I’m not anymore, right?
Lex Fridman
What’s the secret to your zen? I mean, over and over in the chats I’ve had with you in the conversation today about every even tense topic, you’re very zen. What’s the source of zen?
What’s the secret to your zen? I mean, over and over in the chats I’ve had with you in the conversation today about every even tense topic, you’re very zen. What’s the source of zen?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
I have a way of thinking about what is the worst case scenario, always, right? And the answer is, at the end, if I take like a chess player, right? In the end, am I dead? Yes or no? Right? And I do that nonstop, right?
I have a way of thinking about what is the worst case scenario, always, right? And the answer is, at the end, if I take like a chess player, right? In the end, am I dead? Yes or no? Right? And I do that nonstop, right?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And that’s also how I do my startups, right? Is that I’m here to get something right. What is the worst case? It goes bankrupt. That’s life. A company lives, a company dies. That’s okay, right? Like, and so my moral way is always like, am I dying in the end? Am I hurting someone? If the answer is no, then too bad, right? Like, oh, some lawyers are going to be unhappy. What are they going to do? Take all the money of VideoLAN? Wow. They’re going to have 50 grand. Amazing, right? What are they going to do with that? The code– the source code is out there. It’s not stoppable. Also because what we do is good and it’s done for everyone.
And that’s also how I do my startups, right? Is that I’m here to get something right. What is the worst case? It goes bankrupt. That’s life. A company lives, a company dies. That’s okay, right? Like, and so my moral way is always like, am I dying in the end? Am I hurting someone? If the answer is no, then too bad, right? Like, oh, some lawyers are going to be unhappy. What are they going to do? Take all the money of VideoLAN? Wow. They’re going to have 50 grand. Amazing, right? What are they going to do with that? The code– the source code is out there. It’s not stoppable. Also because what we do is good and it’s done for everyone.
Video archiving
Lex Fridman
That’s beautiful. Kieran, you said that there’s an active archiving preservation community? I think that’s super fascinating. You wrote that they’re stretched in budget, but they see the extreme importance of FFmpeg as a Rosetta Stone so that multimedia can be played a thousand years from now. I mean, that’s a beautiful way to see FFmpeg and VLC as a tool for preserving visual knowledge.
That’s beautiful. Kieran, you said that there’s an active archiving preservation community? I think that’s super fascinating. You wrote that they’re stretched in budget, but they see the extreme importance of FFmpeg as a Rosetta Stone so that multimedia can be played a thousand years from now. I mean, that’s a beautiful way to see FFmpeg and VLC as a tool for preserving visual knowledge.
Kieran Kunhya
Yes, that’s right. One of the coolest communities in open source multimedia, mainly led by someone called Dave Rice, I’ll give him a shout-out, I think from City University of New York, is the archiving community. They’ve done so much stuff. They value open source, one, because yes, they lack budgets, but two, they see the fact that archiving video is important for the world, and being able to play that is a big problem. Famously in the UK, there was something called the New Domesday Book, and they archived lots of stuff on BBC microcomputers. Within 10 to 15 years, no one had the right software to play that.
Yes, that’s right. One of the coolest communities in open source multimedia, mainly led by someone called Dave Rice, I’ll give him a shout-out, I think from City University of New York, is the archiving community. They’ve done so much stuff. They value open source, one, because yes, they lack budgets, but two, they see the fact that archiving video is important for the world, and being able to play that is a big problem. Famously in the UK, there was something called the New Domesday Book, and they archived lots of stuff on BBC microcomputers. Within 10 to 15 years, no one had the right software to play that.
Kieran Kunhya
I think it was 20 years or something like that, and someone had to go and reverse engineer this, and that was like 20 years. Imagine that in a thousand years. I think one of the great things about FFmpeg is it’s written in C. C is the closest to mathematics you’re probably gonna get. The closest to logic is-
I think it was 20 years or something like that, and someone had to go and reverse engineer this, and that was like 20 years. Imagine that in a thousand years. I think one of the great things about FFmpeg is it’s written in C. C is the closest to mathematics you’re probably gonna get. The closest to logic is-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Do you think in 1,000 years we’d still have C compilers?
Do you think in 1,000 years we’d still have C compilers?
Kieran Kunhya
Yes. We have languages that exist that haven’t changed too much. We have mathematical notation that exists. It will be like Latin. C will be like Latin. It will be a thing that you learn from the past, but it will still be usable in certain contexts. So the archiving community are really great practically. They, again, limited funds. They funded the development of the FFV1 codec, so that’s a lossless codec. So the archiving community is really scared about the act of compression losing things, and they have a fair point in this, you know.
Yes. We have languages that exist that haven’t changed too much. We have mathematical notation that exists. It will be like Latin. C will be like Latin. It will be a thing that you learn from the past, but it will still be usable in certain contexts. So the archiving community are really great practically. They, again, limited funds. They funded the development of the FFV1 codec, so that’s a lossless codec. So the archiving community is really scared about the act of compression losing things, and they have a fair point in this, you know.
Kieran Kunhya
If they compress too hard, it could change the view of the material. There could be something slightly different here and there, so they’re really concerned about things. They need to be not just compressed well, but lossless and be fast. And so they worked with FFmpeg to develop a whole new codec designed for fast software-based encoding. They’re really concerned about resilience, so if they’re storing on tapes or other hard disks, I lose some bits, I need to recover quickly. I can’t lose a whole GOP because I’ve lost a bit-
If they compress too hard, it could change the view of the material. There could be something slightly different here and there, so they’re really concerned about things. They need to be not just compressed well, but lossless and be fast. And so they worked with FFmpeg to develop a whole new codec designed for fast software-based encoding. They’re really concerned about resilience, so if they’re storing on tapes or other hard disks, I lose some bits, I need to recover quickly. I can’t lose a whole GOP because I’ve lost a bit-
Kieran Kunhya
… something like that. So they’re a really great bunch of people. They funded GPU encoding in FFmpeg to make FFV1 encode faster. And it’s really about preserving the world’s multimedia heritage in a way that’s usable, and there’s a lot of great teams and a lot of archival groups across the world who’ve chosen FFmpeg and FFV1 as their archiving solution. And they can really provide us also super specialist advice. They can- … explain, “Ah, in the 1950s, colorimetry was done like this on this certain type of tape, and so there is this special case that you need to handle, and you’ll never get this anywhere else.”
… something like that. So they’re a really great bunch of people. They funded GPU encoding in FFmpeg to make FFV1 encode faster. And it’s really about preserving the world’s multimedia heritage in a way that’s usable, and there’s a lot of great teams and a lot of archival groups across the world who’ve chosen FFmpeg and FFV1 as their archiving solution. And they can really provide us also super specialist advice. They can- … explain, “Ah, in the 1950s, colorimetry was done like this on this certain type of tape, and so there is this special case that you need to handle, and you’ll never get this anywhere else.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You see, they know things on video that we don’t. Like, every time I talk to, was it Dave-
You see, they know things on video that we don’t. Like, every time I talk to, was it Dave-
Kieran Kunhya
Dave Rice
Dave Rice
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… or, or the people from the British, uh-
… or, or the people from the British, uh-
Kieran Kunhya
British Film, uh
British Film, uh
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… Film, it’s just like every time I just learn something new, and I’ve been doing video for 20 years. They have, especially on colorimetry and colors.
… Film, it’s just like every time I just learn something new, and I’ve been doing video for 20 years. They have, especially on colorimetry and colors.
Kieran Kunhya
Storage, these other things.
Storage, these other things.
Lex Fridman
I mean, they have a deep, deep appreciation of the content itself, of the video itself. And like, especially when you’re thinking of lossless, they’re terrified of losing something essential- … about the thing, and in so doing, they’re deeply understanding the thing that is to be preserved, which you sometimes might not be thinking about when you’re-
I mean, they have a deep, deep appreciation of the content itself, of the video itself. And like, especially when you’re thinking of lossless, they’re terrified of losing something essential- … about the thing, and in so doing, they’re deeply understanding the thing that is to be preserved, which you sometimes might not be thinking about when you’re-
Kieran Kunhya
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Lex Fridman
… obsessing about the actual technology of the encoding and so on.
… obsessing about the actual technology of the encoding and so on.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And when you enter the rabbit hole of film scanners, right? So you take those- … those things to make to digital, like, it’s like- … a huge topic that, like, would take another five hours of podcast- … just on that topic.
And when you enter the rabbit hole of film scanners, right? So you take those- … those things to make to digital, like, it’s like- … a huge topic that, like, would take another five hours of podcast- … just on that topic.
Kieran Kunhya
On film, and there’s a lot of film that needs to be archived. Film is degrading. It’s maybe not stored in the right environment. The other thing is they can… What they also do is, because it’s open source, they give this away, their workflows, to countries who can’t afford to have archiving institutions, where archiving is done by volunteers, it’s done by other things. They go and teach, you know, in India, they teach children to do FFmpeg commands. They’re really great. They’re really, they’re really the model community, the model ethos of what we’re trying to achieve. They are such a great bunch of people, so interested in participating and being part of something much bigger because they realize the work they’re doing in a thousand years is gonna tell a lot.
On film, and there’s a lot of film that needs to be archived. Film is degrading. It’s maybe not stored in the right environment. The other thing is they can… What they also do is, because it’s open source, they give this away, their workflows, to countries who can’t afford to have archiving institutions, where archiving is done by volunteers, it’s done by other things. They go and teach, you know, in India, they teach children to do FFmpeg commands. They’re really great. They’re really, they’re really the model community, the model ethos of what we’re trying to achieve. They are such a great bunch of people, so interested in participating and being part of something much bigger because they realize the work they’re doing in a thousand years is gonna tell a lot.
Kieran Kunhya
You know, in a thousand years we may be drowning in AI slop. This stuff needs to be important and, you know, archived well. What was life like?
You know, in a thousand years we may be drowning in AI slop. This stuff needs to be important and, you know, archived well. What was life like?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it feels like capturing the 20th century and the 21st century is essential because it feels like a transition point, where we went from scarcity of data to slop- … oceans of slop, and that transition point is good to archive.
Yeah, it feels like capturing the 20th century and the 21st century is essential because it feels like a transition point, where we went from scarcity of data to slop- … oceans of slop, and that transition point is good to archive.
Kieran Kunhya
It’s important, yeah.
It’s important, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
But people don’t realize we are losing today a ton of films. There is a ton of things from the ’30s, from the ’40s, and the ’50s that where there is no value-
But people don’t realize we are losing today a ton of films. There is a ton of things from the ’30s, from the ’40s, and the ’50s that where there is no value-
Kieran Kunhya
And tape. ’70s and ’80s, there’s tape, and there’s not enough tape heads in the world-
And tape. ’70s and ’80s, there’s tape, and there’s not enough tape heads in the world-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
To read all the tapes.
To read all the tapes.
Kieran Kunhya
… left to redo, so they have to decide what they want to archive and throw away the rest of the tapes. There’s huge moral hazard, I guess for want of a better phrase, around this topic because this is a digital record of human history and they have to make decisions that… And there’s digital stewardship, I suppose, for want of… I made that phrase up. That’s not a real phrase. To make sure the world can have this information in something that’s playable by everybody, not- … playable on some device that, well, it doesn’t exist anymore.
… left to redo, so they have to decide what they want to archive and throw away the rest of the tapes. There’s huge moral hazard, I guess for want of a better phrase, around this topic because this is a digital record of human history and they have to make decisions that… And there’s digital stewardship, I suppose, for want of… I made that phrase up. That’s not a real phrase. To make sure the world can have this information in something that’s playable by everybody, not- … playable on some device that, well, it doesn’t exist anymore.
Lex Fridman
And then there’s like, realistically speaking, there’s a needle in a haystack where there’s a lot of value in archiving all that footage, and then over time finding the gems- … that we don’t know are there.
And then there’s like, realistically speaking, there’s a needle in a haystack where there’s a lot of value in archiving all that footage, and then over time finding the gems- … that we don’t know are there.
Kieran Kunhya
Hey, there was something in that corner that we just didn’t- And that would’ve been compressed away because it was some little thing. Oh, wow, there’s something there.
Hey, there was something in that corner that we just didn’t- And that would’ve been compressed away because it was some little thing. Oh, wow, there’s something there.
Lex Fridman
That’s it.
That’s it.
Kieran Kunhya
And that’s… They’ve made sure that it’s lossless. They can prove mathematically that it’s lossless. They can run different trade-offs for if there’s bit… if they lose a bit, a single bit flips, I can make sure that I only lose a portion of a given frame. We can do error recovery on previous frames. They can do all sorts of different things.
And that’s… They’ve made sure that it’s lossless. They can prove mathematically that it’s lossless. They can run different trade-offs for if there’s bit… if they lose a bit, a single bit flips, I can make sure that I only lose a portion of a given frame. We can do error recovery on previous frames. They can do all sorts of different things.
Future of FFmpeg and VLC
Lex Fridman
Do you think VLC and FFmpeg will be here 100 years from now?
Do you think VLC and FFmpeg will be here 100 years from now?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
FFmpeg, yes.
FFmpeg, yes.
Kieran Kunhya
Yep, FFmpeg, yes.
Yep, FFmpeg, yes.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
VLC, maybe.
VLC, maybe.
Lex Fridman
What’s the future of… Where is FFmpeg going? Where is VLC going? Like in the next… If you think about, like, five years, 10 years, 20 years.
What’s the future of… Where is FFmpeg going? Where is VLC going? Like in the next… If you think about, like, five years, 10 years, 20 years.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Five years, 10 years is easy. The question is after that, right? The question is- … do we arrive at something called holograms, right?
Five years, 10 years is easy. The question is after that, right? The question is- … do we arrive at something called holograms, right?
Lex Fridman
Yeah, so will VLC and FFmpeg expand- … to whatever-
Yeah, so will VLC and FFmpeg expand- … to whatever-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Multimedia
Multimedia
Lex Fridman
… multimedia- … so multimedia might become, I’m sorry for the pothead expansion of topic, but, you know, if you look at something like Neuralink with brain-computer interfaces, it’s very possible that we start to consume what multimedia means is whatever codec, whatever data that our brain wants to consume through the brain-computer interfaces. That’s one. Then virtual reality, of course.
… multimedia- … so multimedia might become, I’m sorry for the pothead expansion of topic, but, you know, if you look at something like Neuralink with brain-computer interfaces, it’s very possible that we start to consume what multimedia means is whatever codec, whatever data that our brain wants to consume through the brain-computer interfaces. That’s one. Then virtual reality, of course.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
You will have VLC for Neuralink.
You will have VLC for Neuralink.
Kieran Kunhya
Yep, and you’ll have FFmpeg -i input format human brain.
Yep, and you’ll have FFmpeg -i input format human brain.
Lex Fridman
Yeah. There’s gonna be codecs for the brain.
Yeah. There’s gonna be codecs for the brain.
Kieran Kunhya
Sure, 100%. Yeah, to compress neural information, yeah.
Sure, 100%. Yeah, to compress neural information, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
I mean, today there is like, there are new codecs for- … for example, what we call point cloud, right? Or volumetric videos, right? There is a ton of research on what we call RGB-D, right? So codecs for depth that is useful for robotics and for 3D things. There is a ton of codecs for compression of 3D elements.
I mean, today there is like, there are new codecs for- … for example, what we call point cloud, right? Or volumetric videos, right? There is a ton of research on what we call RGB-D, right? So codecs for depth that is useful for robotics and for 3D things. There is a ton of codecs for compression of 3D elements.
Kieran Kunhya
Compression for astronomy.
Compression for astronomy.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
For example, on VLC, we also have already a VR and XR version of VLC. And also on Kyber, right? We talk about Kyber. On Kyber, we also like do streaming of XR content on, for the glasses who cannot have enough power or inside the Apple Vision or the Quest. So we already work on streaming 3D, XR, interactive, low latency. There is something called volumetric video, point cloud videos, so it’s not stopping. And yes, at some point it will manage 3D data inside VLC and FFmpeg, right? It’s obvious.
For example, on VLC, we also have already a VR and XR version of VLC. And also on Kyber, right? We talk about Kyber. On Kyber, we also like do streaming of XR content on, for the glasses who cannot have enough power or inside the Apple Vision or the Quest. So we already work on streaming 3D, XR, interactive, low latency. There is something called volumetric video, point cloud videos, so it’s not stopping. And yes, at some point it will manage 3D data inside VLC and FFmpeg, right? It’s obvious.
Lex Fridman
So that’s where it is moving, like the community is open.
So that’s where it is moving, like the community is open.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Not everyone in the community sees that, but as Kieran and I, we are entrepreneurs, we know where it’s going. We see that, right?
Not everyone in the community sees that, but as Kieran and I, we are entrepreneurs, we know where it’s going. We see that, right?
Lex Fridman
So I suppose that there is a tension probably inside FFmpeg. It’s like, “Hey, listen, folks, we’re really good at doing video and audio, so like why expand? Like let’s do the thing we’re really good at doing.”
So I suppose that there is a tension probably inside FFmpeg. It’s like, “Hey, listen, folks, we’re really good at doing video and audio, so like why expand? Like let’s do the thing we’re really good at doing.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
In order to answer that question, we need to answer the definition of what is multimedia. And multimedia is a digital representation of several streams for the human senses. And we will do that, right? So imagine there is now a way to not have a mic, but have a odor sensor- … and a diffuser of odors. It will get into FFmpeg.
In order to answer that question, we need to answer the definition of what is multimedia. And multimedia is a digital representation of several streams for the human senses. And we will do that, right? So imagine there is now a way to not have a mic, but have a odor sensor- … and a diffuser of odors. It will get into FFmpeg.
Lex Fridman
So your demuxer is coming up.
So your demuxer is coming up.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes. Yes. Of course, your demuxer has a new track type that is basically odors, right? And you already have-
Yes. Yes. Of course, your demuxer has a new track type that is basically odors, right? And you already have-
Lex Fridman
Smell, touch.
Smell, touch.
Kieran Kunhya
It’s like audio. You’ll have a left and right nose track. You have a left and right audio pair. It’s easy.
It’s like audio. You’ll have a left and right nose track. You have a left and right audio pair. It’s easy.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Yes, of course.
Yes, of course.
Lex Fridman
Stereo smell.
Stereo smell.
Kieran Kunhya
Stereo smell, yeah.
Stereo smell, yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
So in VLC, for example, we already have a plugin for haptic. It’s mostly for what we call 4D cinemas, right? You know, those ones on hydraulic—I don’t know how you say that—all the hydraulic-
So in VLC, for example, we already have a plugin for haptic. It’s mostly for what we call 4D cinemas, right? You know, those ones on hydraulic—I don’t know how you say that—all the hydraulic-
Kieran Kunhya
Hydraulic arms. Hydraulic,
Hydraulic arms. Hydraulic,
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Arms. And where everything is moving, like you have in theme parks, right? And there is a data feed synchronized where, which is basically transporting this information.
Arms. And where everything is moving, like you have in theme parks, right? And there is a data feed synchronized where, which is basically transporting this information.
Lex Fridman
Is there yet a standard for that?
Is there yet a standard for that?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
There are many standards, right?
There are many standards, right?
Lex Fridman
This is… You make me so happy.
This is… You make me so happy.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And so of course, like we have a plugin which is not in the normal version of VLC-
And so of course, like we have a plugin which is not in the normal version of VLC-
Lex Fridman
That’s good.
That’s good.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… that is basically transporting those type of movements, which is physical movements, which is haptic movements, right? It is a human sense, so it will get in.
… that is basically transporting those type of movements, which is physical movements, which is haptic movements, right? It is a human sense, so it will get in.
Lex Fridman
That’s such an exciting future. Was it… I mean, it’s a small community of developers. How do you pull that off? Like if you’re a contributor to FFmpeg or VLC, it feels stressful. Like it, just looking on Twitter, it’s like a huge amount of work to make it work on all these different operating systems, an incredible effort.
That’s such an exciting future. Was it… I mean, it’s a small community of developers. How do you pull that off? Like if you’re a contributor to FFmpeg or VLC, it feels stressful. Like it, just looking on Twitter, it’s like a huge amount of work to make it work on all these different operating systems, an incredible effort.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, see it in the other direction. We are not the contributors. We are the maintainers, right? So we maintain for everyone. Meaning that, for example, every year there is around 150 people who contribute to VLC and maybe 300 on FFmpeg, right? Our goal as a small team is to get all the contribution in. So if there is more usage, there will be more contributions, and those people will do the right module, the new format, and so on. We care about the architecture of VLC, the architecture of FFmpeg, right? Now we’re doing things in VLC, which is spatial audio, right? We did the demo not long ago. There was changes needed on the architecture, and we did the first spatial audio module.
No, see it in the other direction. We are not the contributors. We are the maintainers, right? So we maintain for everyone. Meaning that, for example, every year there is around 150 people who contribute to VLC and maybe 300 on FFmpeg, right? Our goal as a small team is to get all the contribution in. So if there is more usage, there will be more contributions, and those people will do the right module, the new format, and so on. We care about the architecture of VLC, the architecture of FFmpeg, right? Now we’re doing things in VLC, which is spatial audio, right? We did the demo not long ago. There was changes needed on the architecture, and we did the first spatial audio module.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
When it’s going to add the second one, it’s going to be easy, or the third one is going to be easy, right? Our goal, and it’s going to be the same for others or haptic, right? We need to work the architecture so that modules can be added to add future capabilities. So yes, we are going… We are a multimedia framework, so that’s not just audio and video. It’s everything that is timed and represents something that you can sense. And if it’s brainwaves, it’s going to be brainwaves.
When it’s going to add the second one, it’s going to be easy, or the third one is going to be easy, right? Our goal, and it’s going to be the same for others or haptic, right? We need to work the architecture so that modules can be added to add future capabilities. So yes, we are going… We are a multimedia framework, so that’s not just audio and video. It’s everything that is timed and represents something that you can sense. And if it’s brainwaves, it’s going to be brainwaves.
Kieran Kunhya
I think that’s inevitable. Sorry.
I think that’s inevitable. Sorry.
Lex Fridman
I love this on so many fronts because, so FFmpeg and VLC are pushing companies and pushing the world to standardize. So for example, to standardize- … brainwaves, right? So standardize… It would push, like I hope Neuralink comes up with a standard for multimedia via brain-computer interfaces or for robots with haptic.
I love this on so many fronts because, so FFmpeg and VLC are pushing companies and pushing the world to standardize. So for example, to standardize- … brainwaves, right? So standardize… It would push, like I hope Neuralink comes up with a standard for multimedia via brain-computer interfaces or for robots with haptic.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
By experience, what happens is always the same, right? You start, it’s a new topic. There is like five different standards because everyone starts to do this. The hype goes down because every time the hype goes down, then people start to say, “Well, you know what? We need to do a standard.” People, because two or three companies, usually not the leader, but the two or three followers do a standard, and then we implement the standard and then it’s the end of the curve. It starts to be more pepper.
By experience, what happens is always the same, right? You start, it’s a new topic. There is like five different standards because everyone starts to do this. The hype goes down because every time the hype goes down, then people start to say, “Well, you know what? We need to do a standard.” People, because two or three companies, usually not the leader, but the two or three followers do a standard, and then we implement the standard and then it’s the end of the curve. It starts to be more pepper.
Lex Fridman
And then the leader’s kind of pressured into it because it is better to do a standard. Yeah.
And then the leader’s kind of pressured into it because it is better to do a standard. Yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Example, 3D audio, right? Six or seven years ago, it was everything about 3D. You go, you had the cardboard on Android. You had two audio formats. They’re all dead, right? And now it’s coming back with actual use cases, and we learn from the mistakes of the past standard. So it will be the same everywhere.
Example, 3D audio, right? Six or seven years ago, it was everything about 3D. You go, you had the cardboard on Android. You had two audio formats. They’re all dead, right? And now it’s coming back with actual use cases, and we learn from the mistakes of the past standard. So it will be the same everywhere.
Lex Fridman
And not try to avoid closed? I saw somewhere you didn’t have too many nice things to say about Dolby.
And not try to avoid closed? I saw somewhere you didn’t have too many nice things to say about Dolby.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, I don’t.
No, I don’t.
Lex Fridman
What is… can you educate me on why, where they went, what did they do bad that made you mad?
What is… can you educate me on why, where they went, what did they do bad that made you mad?
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
It’s used to be an amazing company doing tons of great things with amazing engineers. They defined what sound was. And now it’s mostly-
It’s used to be an amazing company doing tons of great things with amazing engineers. They defined what sound was. And now it’s mostly-
Kieran Kunhya
Lawyers.
Lawyers.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
… lawyers and licensing things.
… lawyers and licensing things.
Lex Fridman
Oh, so they’re, yeah, it’s, they’re, they’re closing stuff off. They’re trying to make money on licensing.
Oh, so they’re, yeah, it’s, they’re, they’re closing stuff off. They’re trying to make money on licensing.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
No, it’s just like they, they don’t innovate as much as they did- … and so on. It’s a bit like I’m sorry to say, right, like HP, right?
No, it’s just like they, they don’t innovate as much as they did- … and so on. It’s a bit like I’m sorry to say, right, like HP, right?
Kieran Kunhya
Very true.
Very true.
Lex Fridman
Oh, since we talked about Twitter a bunch in a bunch of different contexts, do you have a favorite, and least favorite, most embarrassing tweet on either VideoLAN or FFmpeg Twitters?
Oh, since we talked about Twitter a bunch in a bunch of different contexts, do you have a favorite, and least favorite, most embarrassing tweet on either VideoLAN or FFmpeg Twitters?
Kieran Kunhya
The two, my two favorites are, “Talk is cheap, send patches.” I think that, that- … embodies a lot of the stuff doesn’t get, as, as we’ve talked about, stuff doesn’t get built unless someone does it. It doesn’t just appear from the ether. The other one that I like is “FFmpeg, nothing is beyond our reach.” I think that comes from a US military satellite patch where I think they, they invented some kind of monitoring system that could see the whole world, and this was released.
The two, my two favorites are, “Talk is cheap, send patches.” I think that, that- … embodies a lot of the stuff doesn’t get, as, as we’ve talked about, stuff doesn’t get built unless someone does it. It doesn’t just appear from the ether. The other one that I like is “FFmpeg, nothing is beyond our reach.” I think that comes from a US military satellite patch where I think they, they invented some kind of monitoring system that could see the whole world, and this was released.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Wasn’t there something where FFmpeg was running on a rover on Mars also?
Wasn’t there something where FFmpeg was running on a rover on Mars also?
Kieran Kunhya
Yeah, so FFmpeg is used by the Mars rover, the Mars 2020 rover to compress pictures. They really wanted—they wrote a paper about it, and they really wanted to use as much commercial off-the-shelf technology as possible.
Yeah, so FFmpeg is used by the Mars rover, the Mars 2020 rover to compress pictures. They really wanted—they wrote a paper about it, and they really wanted to use as much commercial off-the-shelf technology as possible.
Lex Fridman
Oh, that’s cool.
Oh, that’s cool.
Kieran Kunhya
FFmpeg runs on Mars, so we are, we are a multi-planetary open source library.
FFmpeg runs on Mars, so we are, we are a multi-planetary open source library.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Very often we’ve seen- … Tweets for people using VLC in weird places. A lot of the people doing Formula 1 are in all the paddocks, they use VLC to play the live feed. We’ve seen the European Space Agency. We’ve seen SpaceX, like, monitoring the launches with VLC, and it fills you with joy, right? So-
Very often we’ve seen- … Tweets for people using VLC in weird places. A lot of the people doing Formula 1 are in all the paddocks, they use VLC to play the live feed. We’ve seen the European Space Agency. We’ve seen SpaceX, like, monitoring the launches with VLC, and it fills you with joy, right? So-
Lex Fridman
I’ve seen a particle accelerator.
I’ve seen a particle accelerator.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Oh, yeah, yeah. We had one of the most amazing thing that I went for was to go to the CERN at the LHC because they were using VLC to monitor all the captors on the ring because the ring is 27 kilometers. And so they had some analog cameras- … and they were using some of the capture cards to go to analog to VLC, so VLC could stream on their multicast network for the whole CERN to access to that. And, like, I visited that in 2010 with Laurent and, like, we fixed their issue in an hour or something like that, right? Because it was some parameters maybe not well documented at that time. And he said, “Okay, for the whole day, what do you want to do?” And we visited everything. Like… things where with antimatter and colliders and so on.
Oh, yeah, yeah. We had one of the most amazing thing that I went for was to go to the CERN at the LHC because they were using VLC to monitor all the captors on the ring because the ring is 27 kilometers. And so they had some analog cameras- … and they were using some of the capture cards to go to analog to VLC, so VLC could stream on their multicast network for the whole CERN to access to that. And, like, I visited that in 2010 with Laurent and, like, we fixed their issue in an hour or something like that, right? Because it was some parameters maybe not well documented at that time. And he said, “Okay, for the whole day, what do you want to do?” And we visited everything. Like… things where with antimatter and colliders and so on.
Lex Fridman
That’s awesome.
That’s awesome.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
And that was, like, one of the most amazing days of my physics background.
And that was, like, one of the most amazing days of my physics background.
Lex Fridman
Yeah, it’s used, like, everywhere. Any tweets, Kieran, you regret?
Yeah, it’s used, like, everywhere. Any tweets, Kieran, you regret?
Kieran Kunhya
Tweets I regret?
Tweets I regret?
Lex Fridman
Or is it like that, how does the French song go? Regret nothing.
Or is it like that, how does the French song go? Regret nothing.
Kieran Kunhya
“Je ne regrette rien.” Yeah.
“Je ne regrette rien.” Yeah.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
That’s very important for me, right? Don’t regret anything. No, it’s because regrets are a tax on your mind, right? So learn from your mistakes, but don’t regret. Because you’ve done it, so except if you have a, a time machine to go back in time, don’t regret, right? It’s going to just tax your brain. Learn from your mistake, sure. Don’t regret.
That’s very important for me, right? Don’t regret anything. No, it’s because regrets are a tax on your mind, right? So learn from your mistakes, but don’t regret. Because you’ve done it, so except if you have a, a time machine to go back in time, don’t regret, right? It’s going to just tax your brain. Learn from your mistake, sure. Don’t regret.
Lex Fridman
It’s like it reminds me, it’s beautiful. It’s a tax on your brain. It reminds me of the Johnny Depp quote I saw where he was saying, “Hate, you know, I don’t hate. That’s, hate is a very expensive emotion.”
It’s like it reminds me, it’s beautiful. It’s a tax on your brain. It reminds me of the Johnny Depp quote I saw where he was saying, “Hate, you know, I don’t hate. That’s, hate is a very expensive emotion.”
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Are you comparing me to Johnny Depp?
Are you comparing me to Johnny Depp?
Lex Fridman
Uh-
Uh-
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Because that would be your first one.
Because that would be your first one.
Lex Fridman
Well, gentlemen, like I said, I’m eternally grateful for the software that, you know, the two of you and the bigger community have been part of building with FFmpeg and VLC and everything else. I’m eternally grateful for the spicy tweets. Never stop. And I’m grateful that you would talk with me today and give me this sexy hat. I feel like a wizard. I feel special. And I feel special to get a chance to talk and celebrate the piece of software that brought me so much joy over the years. So thank you for everything, and thank you for talking today.
Well, gentlemen, like I said, I’m eternally grateful for the software that, you know, the two of you and the bigger community have been part of building with FFmpeg and VLC and everything else. I’m eternally grateful for the spicy tweets. Never stop. And I’m grateful that you would talk with me today and give me this sexy hat. I feel like a wizard. I feel special. And I feel special to get a chance to talk and celebrate the piece of software that brought me so much joy over the years. So thank you for everything, and thank you for talking today.
Kieran Kunhya
Thank you for having us.
Thank you for having us.
Jean-Baptiste Kempf
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
Lex Fridman
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jean-Baptiste Kempf and Kieran Kunhya. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now let me leave you with some words from the legendary Linus Torvalds. “Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program.” Thank you for listening, and I hope to see you next time.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jean-Baptiste Kempf and Kieran Kunhya. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now let me leave you with some words from the legendary Linus Torvalds. “Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program.” Thank you for listening, and I hope to see you next time.